And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 100: ATWI 100th Episode Special

Episode Date: October 5, 2020

Today And The Writer Is…releases it’s 100th episode! To celebrate this milestone, Ross and Joe will answer questions from past guests such as Ryan Tedder, Charli XCX, Nick Jonas, Lindy Robbins, Ricky Reed, Simon Wilcox, Luke Laird, and more, as they reflect on the songwriting and the podcast. We want to express our deepest thanks to our listeners for their support and to everyone who has made this podcast possible. It is an honor to feature the stories of such talented music creatives. We are humbled by the opportunity to use this platform to amplify their voices and advocate for songwriters. A big thank you to our production team! Producers: Big Deal Music Group & Mega House MusicHost & Producer: Ross GolanProducer: Joe LondonProducer: Casey RobisonProducer: David SilbersteinProducer: Ashley AlexanderProducer & Social Media: Meg GogginsProducer: Zack WeinsteinProducer: Kelley FoxWatercolor Artwork: Michael Richey WhiteMarketing Consultant: Dodge WilliamsSpecial thanks to: Mark Tindle, Miles Bergsma, Fame House, Amber Packer, and Hipgnosis Songs Group. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. For a little bit of context,

we just wanted you to know that a lot of these were recorded before quarantine. And as we know, a lot has changed in 2020. So again, please stay safe out there. and enjoy the new episodes of And The Writer is. Welcome to And The Writer is. This is our 100th episode. Episode 100. We've done this show 100 times.

This is our 100th release. And basically, we are going to do a different kind of episode today because we can. because we can. I'm super excited to have my fellow host and guest Joe London who we started this initially

just because we wanted to talk to our friends about what it's like to be a songwriter in a modern day music industry and obviously a lot of things have changed even since we started

this. So, so many people to think and whatnot. But before we get there, we're going to do a little Q&A. Should toast first? Yeah, let's toast, you man. Just for everyone listening, we are sipping some tequila. Cheers. Oh, there we go. We are socially distanced. Yeah, way to reach for that one. We are outside somewhere. Oh, that's good. Oh, yeah, it's real good. We are somewhere outside, it's over 90 degrees. There are planes that fly overhead every once in a while. We also have some fans going, so if you hear an oscillating fan in the background. Exactly.

So this is going to be clearly our most unprofessional episode yet. But anyway, yeah, so we're going to do... We should just guess where the planes are going every time they fly over. Madagascar. I don't think they're doing those flights yet. Direct flight here. He just gave up our location. Somebody's going to triangulate the sound of that jet.

Okay, so we did a Q&A. This is actually pretty cool. So our previous guests had an opportunity to send us questions for us to answer. So, you know, we couldn't do the show without our guests. So it's pretty exciting to have this conversation with so many of them at once, even if you can't hear them asking this is from their heads you want to go first

yeah so should I ask you because I feel like this first question yeah sure I haven't looked through these so this or should we just kind of like should we not go in order and just kind of like scroll through them yeah sure whatever but I'll let you go first okay let's see here this is a good one okay let's just start with

the homie David Israelite yeah because he's been a huge part of podcast. Okay, Ross, how has joining the board of NMPA as a songwriter representative informed your perspective about the symbolic relationship between songwriters and music publishers? Ah, yes. A very serious one to start. Very serious. Just get into it. Yeah, so David Israelite is the person who is the CEO of the National Music Publishers Association, which essentially represents all publishers, independent self-published, and otherwise. So he's the head of the board, essentially, and I've been fortunately asked to be the first songwriter representative in its

102-year history, which is amazing. And that's really a direct result to this podcast. So pretty amazing. Me and Liz Rose, by the way, it's not just me. But what's amazing about publishers and songwriters is that there's a cliche about both. You know, a lot of publishers look at some songwriters as, you know, that they're trying to treat them like a bank. And then I think a lot of songwriters think of publishers as a bank. And so there's a natural sort of chasm of skepticism on why people are doing this business. and what it turns out is that the publisher doesn't make money unless the songwriter makes money. So most of the publishers, if not all of the publishers, I know personally, are in the interest of

trying to help songwriters achieve their goals and to be as successful as possible. So I think what's exciting about being part of the board of NMPAs, you're surrounded by some of the most accomplished publishers in the world and in a very short history of the music business some of the most successful of all time. So it's exciting to hear these people essentially standing up only for songwriters because anything in theory that's good for the publisher

is good for the songwriters. For the most part, publishers incentive is to make songwriters money and successful entrepreneurs. And I'm proud to be on a board of some of the smartest people I've ever met in the music business. And it's a lot of information. And these people are savvy. And they're fighting for your rights all around the world.

This isn't just something where you're collecting on a local radio station. Well, I think I speak for all the past guests as well as the listeners. when in saying that it feels great to have you on that board as the first songwriter. You know, a lot of it's listening, which is nice to be in a position where you kind of get four times a year a solid state of the union to see what's going on and we can ask questions and we can make some decisions on behalf of songwriters. So it's an honor to be a part of it. Thank you, David, is Real Life, for doing more than one episode with us. That's awesome.

Okay, so I'll do, let's do, let's do a Nashville one. Let's do Luke Laird. Ooh. Luke Laird is one of the few people that I've texted many times to say in this next segment where Luke Laird, he's a common thread in this. So of everyone you've interviewed, who has the most fascinating, who has the most fascinating creative process. So that's one.

What would you say? The most, yeah, man, fascinating creative process. I mean, maybe just because it's a new episode, but the Daniel Lois, I don't know if he really talked too much about his creative process, but I found it fascinating when, do you remember when he was talking about, like, all the songs that he had where they spent hours writing the song, and then they ended up taking the fucking, like, part where they were screwing around at the end? Yeah.

That ended up becoming all the big songs was like the part where they gave up and they were having fun. I don't know if that's like the most fascinating. Maybe it is, yeah. I mean, that is pretty fascinating. All those songs that came out of that. Yeah, I think it's good about just being attentive

in the studio because you might be surprised what's really the special moment. You know, that's why at the end of a lot of sessions we do those Hail Mary moments. Yep. Where it's, you've been struggling for six hours to write a song, you have a half hour left. And you always find that it's like the times

when you're actually like laughing and having the most fun. that's like usually where the cold is. You know, when you're trying to be too serious and like, when you want it too bad, I have sort of like a list of things that I ask in every, you know, session and one of the... ASL.

What? ASL. What's the ASL? Age sex location. Is that your first question? No, but that's really interesting. What is that problem? You've never heard that?

No, is that just like... Were you on AIM back in the day? Oh my God. Yeah, for sure. I'll save my age, but if I asked that question, that probably would have gotten me in trouble. So I didn't ask that. No, but one of the obvious questions with someone says,

is it fun? Yeah. Is it fun to sing? Yeah. Does it feel good to sing? Is it fun? And Luke Laird also asked, if The Writer turns into a TV show,

who will need more time and hair and makeup, Ross or Joe? I think that's an easy one. Yeah. It's definitely you. Yeah. Because I ain't on camera. We're talking.

Wow. I could be in my PJs every single time. Some beard trimming. Yeah. Okay, where's this one going? I'm guessing it's going directly to Boise. That's a good guess. That's probably right.

That or San Diego. Yeah. All right. No one will ever know. Your turn. Okay, let me dig deep here. Okay, here's a good one. So from Mr. Nick Jonas.

Okay, Nick Jonas. Second to me, obviously, who was your favorite guest on the show? Wow, that's awesome. I mean, okay, this is probably a safe answer. There are two. The late Ali Willis I thought was fascinating and also Paul Anka. There's something about interviewing Hall of Famers for me where I recognize that the point of this podcast is to see how current songwriters are surviving.

But I feel like you have to know your history. And, you know, Ali said something to me when you have these years that are amazing in your discography. It's because of the two, three years prior to that, of the struggling and writing. That's what got you that year that's amazing. And ever since that interview, I stopped asking as much about the, discography and more about what's happening in between the hits because i think that's amazing so i loved that lesson and paul inca i mean the guy dude that i remember when he left that day from your

house we our jaws were just at the floor he was 15 years old when he wrote you know put your head on my shoulders and then he ended up the first thing he said when we started talking about that what he what he said about what the lyric you used that was originally i i don't remember what he said you don't remember i don't know what it's it put your was it put your legs on my shoulder oh yeah i mean the guy the guy's like the real deal he was the last living rat pack guy he's the he's you know he's the he broke on on the ed solvin show he was best friends of you know buddy holly want to you know just the stories hanging out with uh wasn't didn't it wasn't john kennedy yeah i was just i just said hanging out with john kennedy if you guys didn't

listen to paul inca i mean i have i have a lot of opinions about the current writers, but I'm sure that we'll get to some of those later. Have you seen the Sinatra documentary? Not yet. Oh, you should see it. Okay. I think he might give an interview in it. Paul Anka?

I think he does. I could be mistaken, but you should watch it. It's really good. All right, my turn. Simon Wilcox says, also a great episode. But she asks, what musician in lyrical parameters do you apply in your work? Oh, probably what musical and lyrical parameters do you apply in your work? Are there boundaries?

Do you push against them? And is there anywhere you are afraid to go? Hmm. What's your answer to that? Musical and lyrical parameters do you apply in your work? I don't feel like I apply any. Really? I don't think so.

Oh my God, I feel like I'm the exact opposite of that. I mean, I know like there's some things like, you know, we talk about it. about song math and stuff. There's like, there's some guidelines that I feel like, in like structural stuff I tend to stick to, like, you know, verse, pre-chorus or like some structural stuff. But like, I don't know if it sounds cool, it's cool. For me, at least, like, you can always, like, get wet.

You could go wacky and you can always try and reel it back and use those guidelines, like reel it in. But unless I'm misunderstanding the question, I feel like I don't really try, I try and get out of the parameters, you know? Yeah. I don't know. What do you do? I think I, like, I think I abide by my philosophies.

Yeah. Almost trust my, my personal rule book more than I trust my instincts. Mm. So even if I... Like, stick to the book a little bit. Yeah, even if I write knowing, even if I write using instincts, I always edit using the math. Yeah.

And I trust my own... I feel like my batting average continues to go up as I get more disciplined. But I think... I think honoring genres, especially in an era where we have no aisles and stories, I still think honoring genres is a big win.

If you're going to write feeder to make sure that you have intention, if you're going to write Nashville, to make sure that... their subtext. If you're going to write in in Atlanta, make sure that there's a certain flow. If you're going to write in in Scandinavia,

you're going to make sure the sounds of the words and the melody is king. If you're going to work in, in L.A., it's going to depend on all the different writers you come across. So I do think that you have to honor some of it or you're not really playing fair with the listener. That's true.

I'm curious how you would answer that question. specifically lyrically. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think lyrically, because there's a certain dialect in some of it, especially if you have a co-writer that's, you know, it's like if I'm writing with someone in Nashville, it feels wrong for me to suggest

talking about kicking up dirt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? But I think math-wise, it's like understanding that lyric is king there. Yeah, and figuring out what, yeah, what the boundaries are for Nashville. Right, exactly.

Yeah, yeah. It's studying the, different genres enough to know where you can go and you know and to me again like I'm more concerned about the the seed that like the actual composition and less concerned about the music landscape totally totally this is going to take forever but well we don't have to do all of them hell no we're doing all of them we're sticking around we have to fill these tequila glasses up yeah yeah exactly okay your turn oh shit okay Let's see here.

Okay, here's a good one. From Ryan Teter. I like that guy. We should also, when we say these, we should talk about what we remember from doing the interview. Because I have a funny memory from his where we were in his studio, and he was taking us through his studio and showing us all the crazy, old, like, historic shit that he collects.

Yeah. He had, like, some signed Civil War documents. or something? I can't remember what it was. He has real documents signed by Lincoln and multiple presidents, you know, secretaries of war. I believe he has a Napoleon signature, signed

document, but also George Harrison's original while my guitar gently weeps lyrics and stuff. No way. He's got that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean he's, you know, he's a true if he wasn't a songwriter, he'd be a historian, so.

Wow, well this goes perfect into his question. When do you think you will be done writing songs? Are there other creative things you want to explore outside of songwriting? Like collecting dope shit? Huh. I don't know. I want to think that, you know, I know of a couple of people in the business that just quit and just eventually stopped. But I think you evolve.

I think some of your focus changes. Maybe I don't write with, you know, I'm... I don't know. I'm happy I have 10 writers signed an unknown music publishing who go out there and write with a lot of younger artists that it might not be appropriate for someone like me to write with a younger, like a super young artist that's all the time. So I find that to be creative. But outside of music, I mean, I don't know what I would do. I feel like I'm mostly qualified to do some form of. I think I could still be an author of sorts. Yeah. Well, I mean, the music industry, I mean, like, the musicals and stuff is still in the music industry. But, like, outside of songwriting, that's a little bit of a departure, right?

Because you kind of almost did that a little bit. Yeah, but, yeah. And I'm sure we'll get there. But I think that's, like, for me, I wouldn't mind writing more. What would you write? Like a book or, like, a TV show or something? I don't think I'd write a TV show. I think I'm more into, you know, every time I write a synopsis, I could be a musical.

I really write short stories. Like a romantic novel? Ha. I don't think I can. I definitely have attempted, I think my longest story is 80-something pages. So I'm not too far away from finishing a novel of sorts, but I would have to get to a point where I just get so sick of the grind of songwriting. But right now, I love it too much. Are you going to go somewhere and write it?

Where would you go? Yeah, I mean, you always think you'd be in some cabin in the woods or something, right? Why? What would you do if you weren't writing? Oh, shit, that's a good question. What would I do? I mean, it wasn't mine. Yeah, I'm saying that to Ryan, not too.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't know, maybe something with film. I like messing with cameras and stuff. I'm not sure, though. I do think that there's, like, I don't know, how old is it when it's inappropriate to still write? pop songs? 50? I don't think ever.

60? In Nashville you can write forever. Yeah, because the subject matter can be a little more mature. But I can't write about going out and meeting some girl when I'm 60. No. But you could write, you know, you could write like a, you could write like a more of a timeless pop song like a Maroon 5 Memories or something. Yeah. You know, that's like an emotion that you can kind of write whenever. Who's the dude who has like had a hit in every decade that we've wanted to get on the podcast?

I'm blinking on his name. I know. We had baby face. We had like who we had or? No, no. Someone we want to get. I forget his name. He's had like a hit in like every decade since he's been around.

I'm blanking on his name. I mean, we also had a, I feel like we've had a couple. I mean, Desmond Child's had. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. Okay, so my turn. Emily Warren. do you believe artists who don't write on songs are entitled to publishing if yes why if no how do we stop it from happening

two is there a common thread in people's creativity uh wait should we do these one at time yeah so let's do the first one so do you believe songwriters who don't write on songs are entitled to publishing if yes why and if no how do we stop it from happening that's a tough that's a tough one i don't know the answer is no okay thank you and every single artists who ask for publishing and thinks, well, I'm the one who's out there promoting it. Yeah. If you're listening

to this, I want you to answer why we don't get any of your merchandise, why we don't get any points on your records, why we don't get any part of your tour when you perform our songs. Yeah, that's a big one, especially.

If you're going to take our publishing, then expect us to start coming for some of what's yours and and i know that there are a lot of people who feel plausible deniability because their managers ask for it yeah but your managers represent you your lawyers represent you uh okay here's here's a question for you do you think a lot of times they ask for publishing just to get their name on the writing credit yeah oh totally but that doesn't mean that they wrote the song and and if they didn't write the song and they want anything um then they should be paying for it you want a point

You want to... Give them 0.1% of the song. Yeah. To give me their name on it. You want to have your name on the song, then you pay for it. You give us a point on the record. Oh, there you go. Oh, yeah, you give up stuff to get your name on them.

Yeah, if that's the case. But in reality, just leave us alone and we'll leave you alone. Do you think, here's a question for you, do you think because of all the COVID stuff, artists' revenues are probably down significantly with touring? Are they going to be coming in way more hot the next two years for publishing? I mean, I know a few artists that are coming in hotter now than they ever have. But also, here's one of the dumbest things you can do as an artist is that when you're done with your hot streak. And let's be honest, like, at the end of their careers, we can name a lot of pop stars right now that are not in their prime,

who don't really sell enough units or get radio play. You know, I just get the feeling that the artists now that think that they can ask for it, it's going to be really hard when they ask for the song in three album cycles from now and they're not the hottest artist. And they want that song. And what do we say to them when they came after our song and they asked for 20% of the song they didn't write? So, you know, and look, leave the, if you're a writer and you don't care about it, leave

the bridge open. Let them write on it. Yeah. Then they burn their 5%. Yeah, there's also something to be said about getting, getting, some lyrics that the artist, you know, getting some of their perspective lyrically into the song anyway, like a second verse or a bridge. But then they're writers.

Yeah, that's true. And some artists, I think probably the question was directed at like artists who aren't writers at all who ask for publishing, right? Right. I think that's the assumption. But, you know, that's what we've, you know, I've talked to Emily a couple times in the last couple weeks and we've discussed this also. So this is a relevant question.

Yeah. But here's a good question real quick, off topic again. But say, okay, right now you have a song and it could be cut by Rihanna. Or it could be cut by, let me think here, who's like an up-and-coming girl artist? I mean, Camilla. Okay. Is there anyone like right before Camilla who's like on their way up? I don't even know. Who would we go ahead? Yeah, I don't know. I can't think. Okay, we'll go with Camila.

Rihanna or Camila, who would you give the song to right now? Currently? Yeah. I mean, probably Camila. You really? Yeah. I mean, that's interesting. Well, I mean...

You know, it's interesting. I guess here's the thing is, like, they... There's a ceiling with a younger artist. We know the ceiling of Rihanna. Yeah, but we don't... And it's huge. Yeah, that's true, yeah. It's huge. It's really high.

And the reason why you go with an established artists like Rihanna is because the floor is really high. Yeah. You know, like you go with the classics because their floor is high, not because their ceiling's high. You go with the new artist because the floor is low, but the ceiling's almost, you know, is ginormous. Drop the knowledge. Ross Golan. All right. So, your turn. Wait, should we continue down the Emmys or should we, uh... Yeah, I mean, I think we're, we end up addressing this elsewhere, but I love, I love Emily. Like... Do one more Emily question. Yeah, and she's also been, you know, multiple, time guests to Emily Warren. She said, is there a common thread in people's creativity, a common source of inspiration?

I would say no. No, I don't think so, yeah. People get it from all over the place, I think. I think that that's when it's best is when they get it from all over the place. Yeah, yeah. I just want to read this last one. Oh, did you? Oh, she had more. Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, she had four. Oh. Okay, this is a good one. What has been the most rewarding part of doing the podcast? What positive things have come out of it? I think it's, you know, we don't have a union.

So it's, and I know that we get into that later, somebody else asked something about that. But I think the idea that we're a community and that we can protect each other, you know, that I think it's important that we know that, look, let's just say, here's one way to stop it, the artist asking for publishing, not to go back to that. But let's say every time an artist asked for publishing, we as a group decided we, we would. would post this artist asked for publishing but they didn't they didn't write on it let's say every time a manager berated us or our label berated us because we didn't give up any of our publishing what if we as a as a group decided you know what we're going to post this yeah like Kanye like yeah but that's what I'm saying like it holds people accountable yeah yeah we need Kanye in the podcast yeah what do you think about all that have you been following that I have well like what do you

think it's going to come out of that? Very little. Yeah, you think so? He posted all the contracts. Did you see that? Yeah, he posted his record contracts, and maybe his publishing, too. I think all of them, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, every record deal and every publishing deal is different.

That's going to shake something up, though, right? I think the thing with, you know, being on the board of NMPA, I will say this, like, that record label and that publisher invests in you early on, in theory. I'm not talking about the really established ones who have the representation and who've gone through it a couple of times. But if you find a writer who's 18 years old or 40 years old

and has never had a cut before and you're going to put your name on the line and do your best to break them, that's got to be worth something. I'm not saying that all parts of all deals make sense. Like how there is less breakage, which is a part of a record contract

that still deducts 10% for manufactured goods that could break in shipping. Like, we do not need that. Like, there are certain things in contracts that you can immediately strike down. And if you don't have an attorney who's doing it, 10% of your, you know, what you could actually make goes away in the thin air. So, I don't know. Correct me from wrong, though. I feel like most publishing deals these days are a lot more fair than they've been in the past.

Is that, am I wrong in saying that? I don't know. I mean, yes and no. I mean, I think people are wise to know that they have the, you know, that person who says to you, like, you'll be driving a Ferrari by next year or whatever, you know, that kind of A&R guy. Like, that's the sleazy guy. You know, like, I think those guys struggle more now because we know who the assholes are. It's a little more transparent, yeah.

But I don't know if that's a contractual thing or if that's a personnel. thing. I feel like maybe the personnel is held accountable more now than he used to be. Well, I think, coming back to the question, I think that actually has been part of the positive stuff of this podcast. Like, you know, people being a little bit more aware of stuff like that. And like, I think you've said a bunch that I think rings true is like the, like, what's the saying you have about know how you're getting screwed? What's that? Oh, yeah. I said it a few times. That I used to think that I would, by having a degree in music industry, I used to think it was

going to teach me how not. to get screwed, but instead it just taught me how I'm getting screwed. Yeah, and I think that's a very valuable little tidbit on that young writers can take moving forward. Yeah. You got to know that stuff. Yeah. Okay.

All right, your turn. Okay. Okay, this is Farras from John Bellion. Oh, I like that guy. Having a massive run. Dude. My goodness. What a legend.

You hear the Beaver song? Just came out today? Holy. Oh, is he on that? too. Yeah. Oh, man. Just crashing.

That is the Miley song and the Maroon 5 songs. Epic, dude. I don't know. Crazy. Beast. Okay. John says, John wants to know how Ross became such a stud in Broadway and the songwriter game.

He wants to learn his ways. I don't know if that's a question. I guess that's a question. How did you become such a stud in Broadway and songwriter game? Well, thank you, John. we also have the pentatonic song together that just came out so we have that same so that's fun um so you know all all i have to say is that the the best the best thing a songwriter can have is is infinite patience things just take a long time and um you know a lot of people right now

just rush to get things out and i don't think that makes for better music um i think just and also just being willing to just make, make edits. I really think that even if edits are career-wise or music-wise or lyric-wise or melody-wise, whatever it is, it's just acknowledging that you can get better and to understand that the destination is more fun than wherever you think you're going. I mean, sorry, the journey is more exciting than the destination. The destination is never all that exciting, but you can just create musicals and you can create songs.

And I promise you, the day that you walk away from that session that you're like, oh, my God, that song was awesome and you're leaving the studio and you play that song 500 times on the way home, like, that's all, I can't tell people won't believe it, but that's more. exciting or as exciting as when your song's number one at radio you know and you can create that first one you can't count on the second one but the first one you can actually create so i feel like just keep your head down and if you want to write musicals write a musical and then follow the inspiration yeah and make it make it make it the best you can make it as you know be something put out music you're proud of yeah actually this leads really good i'm going to do one more because

it leads really good into this next question uh from julian benetta good friend of the podcast and a friend in general. If you had to choose what one common thread is between all the guests you've had on the show, what would it be? And you can't say the love. Okay, this says you can't say the love of music or some general bullshit answer like that with a smile of face. That's fantastic. But I think it is what you were just talking about. I think most people that we've had in the podcast would say that the journey is more fun and more

they're just more interested in that than the destination it's like the part when you're writing the song is more interesting than when the song gets cut right i feel like that would be a pretty common thread yeah i love that i definitely think that you know that and that um there's no such thing as uh genuinely no matter how big the ego may seem um almost every single songwriter I know is a ball of insecurity. 100%. And then they all

share the same love language. You know, every single, I don't know if we've discussed that in any podcast, but like every one of them just needs words of affirmation. And I think what maybe makes the podcast work is that at least for the intro and the outro, they get, they

should be reassured that at least somebody in the industry recognizes them for their efforts. Yeah. Well, It is a pretty secluded job, right? I mean, you're kind of in a room all day by yourself or with a couple other people. It's weird that producers, I always think this is weird, that producers don't work with other producers primarily,

so they don't know how other producers act. Yep. And topliners don't know how other top liners work, so they don't know how other top liners act. So it's really interesting when somebody, you don't know, even if you're in the industry for 20 years, you're still working with a limited amount of people who are the same type of profession.

Which is so funny. Yeah. Anyway. But yeah, I would imagine all the producers would have a certain thing in all the songwriters. I think all the songwriters wish that they were, the pure songwriters, wish that they got some part of the production for their efforts often in,

like vocal arrangements and vocal producing and that they feel like their contribution is certainly in pop music is not appreciated as much as it probably should be the way it is in Nashville, the way it is in New York, songwriters and pure songwriters, not producers in L.A. are not appreciated at the level that I think they feel like they should. Isn't it funny how some projects like have a vocal production budget for some artists and some don't. I didn't realize that. I mean, of course they do.

If you bring in a vocal producer, they get paid and sometimes maybe even get points. I'm not sure about that. But yeah, I've had songs cut with artists where we bring in a vocal producer to, like, produce the vocal. And there's a lot of songwriters who can do that. Well, yeah, and if you're sitting there in a session,

and I know I'm going to write in a lot of sessions, all the harmonies, like some counter melodies, like the whole, all the parts, that then the artist goes and cuts. I mean, how much different is that than, you know, somebody who gets production for redoing the drums? For doing the guitars or drums and stuff, yeah. Like, why are drums worth more?

Because drums is what makes it modern. Yeah. But, you know. I forget, maybe it was Ricky who told me this, but someone's told me, like, your records only is more. modern as your drum sounds? Why would somebody

who just does production get paid as a songwriter if they're not contributing to any of the lyrics or melodies? Yeah, because I think there was like a time. We talked about the Jody thing. You guys talked about it. Where there was like a moment where the publishing split to be

not just the song. It split to be like half track, half song. There was like a moment where that happened. It still is that. And certainly in, you know, in Atlanta and then, you know, in hip hop, it's, it's still very, and in the DJ world, it's often really split 50-50. Yeah. Yeah, because in Nashville, it ain't like that. At least not yet. Nashville, it's not like that, right? It might be headed that way, but.

No, and, you know, it's not that in pop, it's not that in, you know, it's, but it is in certain segments. It's, and even crazier in a way, like, musical theater is super compartmentalized. Yeah, probably even more than Like more so than any of them And the other things Like everyone gets Is you have a title And you stick to your job

But it's tough because what is Like what is the perfect scenario With that kind of stuff Like as a I want to say As an advocate That I'm proud that we're part of a generation That credits the guy who does

Do do do do do Do 100% You know You watch Do you see it like What was the documentary Where all those like All those best

licks and stuff those guys got nothing none of them got got publishing so i i appreciate that on the other hand then why isn't it that we we don't get production on return when when what i bring to the master recording is often the you know my voices in it my yeah my claps are in it my maybe my guitar piano are in it and then it's like well but i'm somehow you know designated as uh instrumentalist and the top liner and as a split as a songwriter i don't know why that is i feel like it should be equity on both sides yeah i feel that no if it's going to be you know if we're really being all fair it's almost like there should be a production fee and like a master fee yeah do you know what i'm saying sure like those almost kind of have become two separate things yeah we'll get into that yeah i'm sure all right uh

Lindy Robbins. She's great. Lindy, I miss Lindy. I haven't seen Lindy as well. Has anything a guest writer said about their process affected you in one of your sessions to where you approached or wrote something differently? Great question. Oh, shit.

I got to think on that one for a minute. Anything coming to your head? I would imagine that, I mean, even what you just said about the, the drums. Uh-huh. You know, it's, I'm really in this yacht rock phase. I feel you on that. And so, um, what makes that era great are those drum sounds.

But you use those drum sounds and you sound like, you sound like that era. So it's like, how do you modernize that kind of thing? Um, but that's like, you know, I feel like I've learned so much from all these different writers. I almost want to go through. each but um i don't know i don't know how to answer that that's a really good one yeah i i feel like i'm gonna come back to the daniel lin-wa thing about just having fun yeah that is like something or like doing a hail mary or or just like wherever is that wherever like the fun starts like pay more attention to that like you'd be writing a song and you go into this little weird thing that like isn't

anything but you're having fun doing it like pay a little more attention to that for just a moment and see if it goes anywhere, you know? I also think it's interesting that when, when, um, Dean Wilson, I asked him all these questions about, because I always thought of his songs as like mathematical in a way, and being, well,

that's really cool. You chose to do that and then he chose to do this and then whatever. And he's like, ah, I didn't do that. Uh, I'm purpose. And I think that that's interesting that some people inherently, maybe it's because of the way they've listened to music or just they just get it better than other. people. Yeah. But I think it's interesting how some people are really cerebral about it.

Some people are just, you know, are natural at it. Yeah, that's a good point though. Like what you listen to growing up, like if you're listening to Beatles, like early Beatles, super arranged, very mathematical songs. Like, it might just be then what you know. But it's not, you know, when the Beatles are, it's just classical music. Well, yeah, yeah, I mean. Do you know what I mean? It's really classical music. It's not... It's not... It's...

It's understanding music theory. It's not pop music. It's classic music. I just love the Beatles, man. Okay. Oh, it's just the best. I just told someone yesterday,

I was like, you know, they were like, what should I listen to? I said, well, first you have to listen to all of the Beatles. Yeah, have you? Me? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I'm a, you know, half a generation away from the Beatles

versus somebody who's... Yeah. Somebody who's 20 now may not... You know, the Beatles are 40 years. ago. Did you listen to music? That'd be like me listening to music, you know, only Duke Ellington. Oh, that's what I play at my house.

Duke Ellington? Dude, I put on a Duke Ellington Spotify shuffle. But even that arrangement, it's still, you know, chorus, everyone who thinks starting with the chorus is something new. It's like, Beethoven's fifth started with the chorus. All that music from 1750.

They're like, drop it on from the start, baby. Dude, they all start, they, you start with And you know the name of the song. You go with like the... The most OG. You go to Duke Gallatin and it's like, you... The Sate the A train.

And it goes straight to hook right off the top. It's like hooks off the top is not new. This is not something that's just starting now. We just... We got patient when we got, you know, during the... A lot of the 60s, 70s, and 80s, but 90s even.

We're back in the thick of it. Do you think you'll ever just for a whole year only write songs that start with the chorus? Yeah. It's called 2020. That's great. Okay.

Am I up? Okay, let's see here. Let me be a little more strategic and what question I ask here. Let me read a couple. Ooh, should we have to do a COVID one? Yeah, that's it. This is from Tim Peggnata. Peggnada.

Yeah. Batchez's name. Who was an awesome guest? Do you remember doing his interview? Yeah. He got the shit under the stick because he came in, he came in right we did two in one day we did um uh my blakey house name i don't remember which one we did we just talked about we did the paul anka one oh yeah we did the paul enka oh yeah we did paul enka

and then tim came in and he could tell in our faces that we had like i mean you come in right after like literally one of the greatest songwriters in history i remember it's like it's got to be tough but I will say Tim Tim showed up prepared literally prepared he had notes and he was ready to go that guy was not going to forget a thing yeah that was amazing yeah legend okay here we go

Tim's question is the COVID era has brought many challenges to creatives in our field room chemistry is such an important aspect of music collaboration for artists and writers and producers the spontaneity of sharing an instrument and melodies in the same room as magic

do you have any advice or tips to recreate a bit of this experience for the artist in a Zoom kind of setting asking for a friend to Pagnata. Vibe Consultant. Vib consultant. Amazing. I could hang out with that guy forever. Dude, he's the nicest dude ever.

Personally, I love the Zoom thing as long as you show up prepared. Like, I wake up and before I check my phone, don't sleep with the phone in your room. That's my first thing in the corner. You know, don't get, don't, try to avoid getting sucked into your phone all day, every day. And the first time I pick up my phone is when I have a song idea, melody or lyric. And I try to make that the thing in the morning. That's a good little trick. That even if I'm making coffee, think of ideas.

Maybe you won't, you'll think of like a story, you'll think of something. And the minute you think of something, that's actually pretty good. I'm going to write that down. And don't just write down. titles anymore. Yeah, you write down what the bigger thought is. Yes, write the title, and then write the

four lines. It doesn't have to fully rhyme yet. It doesn't have to have all the math in it. It doesn't have to be all, you know, perfect, but write out the idea. In a session, when you say a title, it really does nothing unless it's like the coolest fucking word you've ever heard.

But when you just drop like a one title line, it doesn't really do much for anyone. You kind of have to have, you have to have at least a line or two or like the thought or the concept, right? Yeah, I don't know if any of you do Masterclass. Love Masterclass. Oh, my God.

But I watch all the... You see the Hans Zimmer one? I don't really watch any music ones. Oh, Hans Zimmer one is dope. I will watch that next. But I do watch all the authors and the poetry and the short stories and all that stuff. Because I find a lot of that to be applicable in what we do

is to respect the story. but I end up watching that a lot in the morning too and like you just listen to just listen to it's like watching TED talks like listen to them and listen to really smart people who are brilliant in their field and they'll say something that's either inspiring or heart wrenching

or something that will I guarantee you even if you watch you know an hour of these things you'll have one title out of it Yep. But just don't, don't grab your phone and start looking through Instagram and expect to be emotionally affected by it. Yeah. Other than really depressed.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, God. Instagram is dark. But, yeah, show up prepared for your Zoom sessions, musically or lyrically, show up. And then the vibe is totally different when everyone's like, that's a cool song idea. Yeah, you almost have to show up with like an idea. You can't really do the like let's vibe in the room, talk for a little bit and see. I mean, you kind of have to bring a little bit of a seed unless you want to be on a Zoom call for fucking eight hours, which nobody really wants to do.

But this actually made me think of one other thing real quick. Is there anything that you do to get yourself inspired quickly? I think pressure. Pressure inspires you? Oh, my God. if you tell me right now that I have a session in five minutes I'll figure out something to write a song about because I get really scared

I get so scared that I'll come up with nothing Fear is your number one inspiration Yeah But like is there anything like just for instance If I'm feeling uninspired If I watch like half an hour of like the Beatles anthology videos I'm like immediately inspired to do something You know it's great what we've been doing is watching

watch really old movies. Oh, like some like Casa Blanca or something? Sure. Casablanca is, first of all, Casablanca is really funny. So good. And, you know, you pick up on all these lines that you know, played against him, all these things that are like classic, you know, he was looking at you, kid,

and all these things that are classic lines. And if you watch old movies, one is you're not playing the game of, have you seen the latest thing that just got dropped on Prime or Netflix? or HBO Max or whatever. You're watching classics. So watch like classics. Even if the classics are Breakfast Club in the 80s

or it's something from whatever it is. Like, you know, go watch something that doesn't make you think about right now. Interesting. And it pulls you out of... Does it make you write more timeless shit? Well, I mean, this is going to be, you know, there are a couple expressions about, you know,

time in the music business, but I think, you know, the idea that, you know, as long as there are teenage girls, there'll be boy bands. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's like, and, and that, and that, um, the only thing that you should write about is a new way of saying, I love you. Sure. So if you watch, you watch, you know, a Shakespeare play or you watch Casablanca, and I promise you, you'll pick up on some themes in it that, feel relevant, but might be said in a way that your peers aren't speaking, because your peers are all speaking in the same language. Sure.

Everyone's kind of caught up in the modern. They're all pitching the exact same song. So go pitch something that's far left. That's very interesting. That might help. Skyler Gray says, what do you have more fun doing, writing songs or podcasting? Oh, come on, Skyler. Skyler.

I love this guy. Shout out from my home state. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I'm a songwriter. Yeah. I think that what's crazy about podcasting is you're sitting across from somebody who's, to get to the level that these songwriters are at, they've gone through all of the life things.

Yes. But the reason why we all got into this, including the guests that we have, is because the one way we know how to communicate, our real self is through writing songs. So if I don't write songs,

I'm depressed. I need to write songs. But I love the podcasting because I get to sit across from like, why are these people sitting across from me? It's like to figure out why any of these people are enjoying this hour as much as I am.

Yeah, writing songs is like needed. The podcast has been just like fun. So maybe the answer to her question is that podcasting, maybe it's not more fun, but it is like kind of just been a fun thing to sit and talk to people about why we have to write songs, why we all have to do this thing that we've found ourselves doing. Okay. Mike Karen says, having met all of the writers, who is the most unlikely songwriting star? I mean, I feel like that has to be Lori McKenna, right?

Ah. Yeah, that's a good one. Well, I got one other one, too. Which is Barry Dean. But we haven't had him on. We haven't had Barry on? No. Wait, I thought we did his.

No, but we should. I had loved that guy. His story's amazing. Same kind of story. Same kind of story. How have we not had Barry on? He's got the craziest music story of all time. We'll text him after this, and we'll get Luke Laird involved.

But I mean, no question. Like Lori McKenna's story, who we just did, I think that was last week or two weeks ago, whatever it is. Last week, yeah. But, like, immediately just because how many people break in at that point in their lives, they've had whatever, three, four kids, and you're not even in a major city and just somebody passes your demo on and you end up recording, then Faith Hill cuts the, basically recuts the entire album. and all of a sudden she's the first woman ACM songwriter of the year. It's like, what? Wild. Wild.

That story's just bananas. But Mike asked a few questions, so let's just keep going through. What was the decision of writer made that was most shocking to you? I'm always... What does that mean?

No, I'm just cute. I'm not sure what that reference is. I guess... A decision about what? I'm always surprised that songwriters still feel the urge to be artists. Oh, interesting.

Okay. I release something too because it's I didn't understand this till I've released music last year how vulnerable it really is it's vulnerable it was vulnerable when we first started doing the podcast and

and then we realized oh no this wasn't just for 200 people which we thought it was going to be and then we're like oh no now we're having arena-sized amount of people listening every week that that really like that was really hard to to deal with initially being like, oh, now I have to be careful.

Sure. You know, or do I have to be careful better yet? But I'm always surprised when when songwriters are determined to kind of have their voice heard. To have their voice heard. Yeah. You know, I don't know.

What does that question mean to you? Yeah, I wasn't sure if you meant something like that or if you meant like a decision in the room like about writing a song. You know, like. Like, let's put the chorus first. I don't know. I was confused.

He asked a few questions, so let's just keep going. He said, now that you're a master question asker, what was the best question asked in a song between these four? Where can I find a woman like that? What are you going to do with all that junk inside that trunk? What does the fox say? Does anybody really know what time it is? You know the story of C?

Do you remember that? Number C or letter C and what does the Fox say? What the Fox? I don't know. I don't know. We asked McKell this in his interview. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

What did he? It was that initially these Norwegian guys were, did a, they did, they're like a Saturday Night Live kind of thing. Yeah. And they did for McKell, for McKell's 40th birthday, because they're super famous in Norway, the Stargate, that they did this mock thing. of Stargate as like pretending to be Stargate doing lines in the studio and all this stuff and if you know Stargate they are not that

you know like they're home for dinner like they're just not that and so in return they recorded a song for these guys as a joke and the joke was what does the Fox say and somehow this blew up and ends up

having a billion streams and is like a viral smash and was genuine Unbelievable. I think what that shows is how, I think what Mike is asking, that's brilliant in an APG sort of way, is ask a question and the listener feels an incentive to answer it. So if you as a songwriter ask a question,

like there's no coincidence, I think, that Bieber had, you know, is it too late to say, I'm sorry? and what do you mean where are you now where are you now is that whatever i think so but like those ideas of you ask a question and the listener is going to answer it in their head i think yeah i think we have to say though that out of all those uh what you're going to do with all that junk all that junk inside that trunk might be the best one well then the last question was ross do you regret not coming up with a fun writer name like dr ross or ross the boughs um i have two things to say to that but before the real question is how do you feel about you know you're not joe sparger you're joe london

yeah how does it feel you know when people say how long did it take for you to adjust to your name uh for me not long at all because forever i always thought you know i i love my name but it doesn't quite ring off the tongue like you know other names do and so i always had the thing like nothing sounds good after joe it's like a hard like nothing sounds like nothing sounds good after joe it's like a hard sounds that cool after Joe. I was in the shower one day, and it just popped in my head. Like, oh, Joe London has kind of a nice ring to it. And so I asked our friend Casey Robinson.

Shout out Casey, also producer for the podcast. Big deal. I said, yo, Casey, like, I'm thinking about, like, doing a production name. What do you think? You know? And he goes, yeah, I would much rather do a session with Joe London than Joe Sparger. I was like, I sold. Brilliant.

So, yeah. But Ross Gollens got a good ring to it. It's a power name. It's an odd number of syllables. You just are used to it, I think, because I think we all think our name is weird. But there was a group of people, Drey and Vidal, these producers, that were two of the first major producers who invited me into the studio to work with them. And Jared Sharf, one of the writers that work with, Al-Hawkshing it.

crushing it he he he could attested this because we were writing a lot they used to call me ross the gloss and for a minute that even mean i because they put the gloss on the song i don't know that's what what what was the gloss i don't know my beautiful melodies yeah that's probably my beautiful melodies all right so there you go that's that's my karen thank you nice thank you mike thank you mike i mean one of the great things about mike's podcast by the way it was it it it he was the first non-songwriter. Yeah, let's talk about that. How we've actually made a point of having every, like we, well, we used to do seasons.

Now we're not going to do season, but we used to make it a point of having like an executive on every, you know, season. Why did we do that? To me, I think the question is, what is a great song? Is different from a songwriter's perspective than it is from an industry professional? And if the goal is to write great songs, you need to have the, the people who are the receivers of those songs and who have opinions about those songs, answer questions about those songs.

Short answer. That's a good answer. All right, I'm asking you one now. Yeah. Okay, this one's from Phineas. Ah, congratulations, Phineas on winning every award that exists. Also, just put out a new song. Yeah.

Did you see the video? Yeah, it's so good. Awesome video. Yeah. Awesome song. Okay, the question is, hi, it's Phineas. I want to know if you've ever interviewed writers who have had, who've written songs that you've hated,

and if so, how did you bullshit your way through the interview? Oh, my God. If only I hated some of the songs Phineas wrote, then I can be like, yeah, right? You know, but unfortunately, I really like his work. You know, one of the things I've worked on really hard is to understand that if a song's really successful, it's successful because people want to hear it.

Yep. Not because someone marketed it really hard. yes, a lot of the guests we have have written songs I haven't liked, but also they didn't like it and the audiences, you know, audiences at large didn't like it. But if a song gets really big, it's probably not big by accident. I don't think hits happen by accident. There's way, it's so, so hard, so many things have to happen. If it's, if that lyric doesn't touch you, okay, maybe it's the beat that's great, but study it. Study and figure out why is this song successful? And I think what makes this podcast interesting is that I have to listen to a lot of music that I wouldn't have listened to as a critic.

And I don't think a critic's job is, I don't think the word critique has to be negative. The job as a critic is to actually be a lover of music. And it's to actually find what's great in it, not find what's bad in it. The word critique, critic is terrible. We should call critics lovers of blank, lovers of music, lovers of theater. And their job should be only to go and find what's great about it and explain why you should see something, not necessarily why you shouldn't see something, why you shouldn't hear it. I think a good critic is one that actually loves what they do. And I've got to say, if you've gotten to the point where you're on,

the podcast you are probably creating something that i i want to hear i want to hear and i want to know how you wrote it yeah and even if i don't even totally get it then i'm going to want to ask you why don't i get it um so i think it's weird like i don't i think the older i get the less i hate i think i have more issues with the you know some of the personnel and the music business than i do the actual compositions you know what about you you know it's a weird thing you know it's a weird thing I was just thinking about the other day I was randomly

me and someone were talking about the iPhone 65 song I'm blue da da da da da da Yeah And I was like Did that song go number one And I looked it up on the billboard

chart and I think it went to number two And I looked at the year Or whatever the month Or whatever it went number one And there was like four songs in the top ten That I never heard of With that song

But then there was like a I forget what it was Like a big insing song or Backstreet Boys or something around that same time. And then I was like, how if I not, I've heard of all the in sync, all the Backstreet Boys, but then there was like a couple bands that I've never even heard of that were in the Billboard Top Ten at that time.

Amazing. And I was just like, how, how does that happen? Do you know why that song works? Well, because it's catchy shit. Do you know why it's catchy? I love that song. I remember being a kid in my living room dancing that song and just loving it.

That, of course. Because it's stupid. There's no lyrics. but melodically it follows all the rules it comes like the word blue lands on one and then it never resolves and by having a pickup then you always have to hear the one so you go you know if it's like

and all the parts are on different different parts aren't they nothing ever happens the same it's so smart one two three I'm blue and what's the verse so it never goes to it never ends here. Oh, it doesn't resolve. So it doesn't resolve and it comes before the one. And it's, so that those melody rules are brilliant. And the verse is after the one. So it's like, it all lines

up. That, that is like, I think it's important that, you know, if you ask why math works. I had a blue, I'm playing that blue. No. That shit is so crazy. One of the great anecdotes that I've had in my, I think in my career is the, in, what's the, um, Come on Barbie, let's go for you. That guy has like... Wait, what's that band? Aqua. Aqua.

Aqua, that's the band. And they were the biggest band ever out of Copenhagen before Lucas Graham. And that guy has a night, like a club night in Copenhagen still to this day. Like, somebody who's listening to this is Scandinavian. Do they play that song every night? I mean, he's like the guy. It's his night. It's just about him.

Well, I mean, I'm sure he's like a DJ. Okay, like he DJs the night. I think so. Okay, got it got it. But I know like that guy. I thought you meant it was like a praise to this guy. He like he didn't even show up. Oh my God.

The whole city showed up to just praise his songs. He's so funny. And they just play Barbie on repeat. Charlie XX, one of my favorite collaborators I've ever worked with. She's so smart. She goes, what's the worst? She is so smart. I remember after she left that day when we did the, her podcast.

I was like unbelievable. I was like blown away about how just like smart she was and how nice she was. If you've watched her rise, it isn't some label doing it, it isn't some manager doing it. It isn't, I mean, yes, those people are helpful.

But she's a really good example of why an artist or an artist like that controls her career. It isn't, she's not waiting for anybody to do anything for her. What's the worst song you've ever? ever written. She also had seniorita since we did her interview.

Oh, yeah. What's the worst song you've ever written? It doesn't have to be one that's released, but if you're feeling shady, then you can talk about one that's been released. Yeah, okay. Do you have the answer to this for you? I have a really bad one that I wrote. It's like so

bad that it might be good. It's out? No, and it didn't come out. It's called coconuts. And the lyric is if you're going if you want to Akuna Matatas then you better be packing bananas something like let's go

coconuts and then there's a sick little drop I just love that people like you write that in a session and for sure she recorded vocals oh the whole it's done the song's done if you want to cut it have you ever sent it out

yeah it was going to be for like a minute it was like in the pit pit Pit Bull World, and I think they were like trying to get Camila on it for a minute, and it just, it like just didn't like, it didn't work. But you know, kudos to you guys for going that far away. It's actually, it's kind of dope, but it's pretty, it's pretty bad. Which really funny. I have one song that, uh, I love all the people who are involved in writing it, so I'm sorry to all you people.

Uh, but it was one of, it was a, a flow writer song that didn't really work. Oh, a bazillionaire. Zillionaire. You knew which song. What the hell, man? You obviously didn't like it either. No, but it's one of those that's like it very much lyrically is on the line.

It's on the line and it arguably crossed over. I mean, I've had a couple that really didn't quite work whereas I... But there was like an era for a lot of that stuff. And that's actually when I wrote that song, which we missed it as well. It's like right around actually the time. when like wiggle came out. Yeah.

There was like an era where you could just get real wacky with the lyric. It did get, you know, it got a good license, so it ended up being sort of. It paid off. It ended up being profitable, but it was not a great song, all things considered. Oh, my God. I feel like I could go down a list of these. But, uh, yeah. What was the most, this isn't a question, but what is the, what's the song that came out that you were like,

this is going to be a big one? And then no one heard it. Um, I had two, like two years ago that I thought we're going to be big. Or at least bigger than they were. One of them was this Kiara song. I'm like even blinking on the title of it. But it's just like, it's just a dope song.

It was like it sounded like nothing at the time. And it was just really good. But yeah, just didn't, came out to crickets. But it's just sometimes it happens, man. I don't know. I don't know what that is. It's just the universe not quite lining up or the wrong song. I mean, it happens most of the time. It does. It's really hard for a song to be actually successful. And it really does make me question like what is that thing that makes something go? I just don't. It's really weird.

You know? Yeah. There's a couple songs out now that I feel like I'm curious to see that I really love. I'm not going to name them, but that I really love that don't seem to be connecting that I didn't even write. And I'm just curious, like, how, like, why, why aren't they going? Because they're so good. Sometimes they go, there was a song that a writer of mine wrote that was just massively successful on streaming. Hundreds of millions at this point on streaming, and they just didn't go to radio with it. Yeah.

And I always think that's really interesting. It's like, I've songs that, you know, that's annoying because you're just watching, you're just assuming that those things translate. And as a writer, you're not. like take that shit to radio yo for me make some money okay your turn uh okay um let me think here we're getting we're getting pretty close here a couple more questions yeah i'm gonna go with uh sarah hudson we just did hers not too long ago yeah i actually don't even know if it's been released yet it hasn't been released yet so this is a good preview um just such a lovely human

yeah i always feel good after talking to her um hey ross and jo it's your favorite guest Sarah Hudson. My question for you guys is what is something you learned about yourselves after 100 episodes of And The Writer is? You wouldn't know it from this particular podcast, but I feel like I've learned more how to listen. Yeah, we're kind of just rambling this one. But, uh, dude, from the first episode to even like the 30th, I feel like you got so much better at interviewing people. Because it's kind of a skill. It's like something, it's a weird thing, man, to be. Everyone thinks they're going to do a podcast about, I'm going to just do a podcast with my friends

and we're just going to have a conversation. And very quickly, we did 12, the first 12 before we released the first one. So we recorded 12 in the can. And the first one that got released, I remember I called you and I said, is there any way to get my ums and likes? And like when someone else is talking, you say, uh, you naturally say, yeah, yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. and all of that is ancillary extra crap and even in real life you don't need to you can just let the other person talk

and over time i've learned that my job is just to get out of the way and to try to shape the conversation but let them go and the more you do that in real life i've talked to my job is just to get out of the way and to try to shape the conversation but let them go and the more you do that in real life, I've talked to my family about doing this, I couldn't recommend all of you and none of you will do this. But I dare you to record a conversation of yours for an hour.

Try to do that once a week and you will change your behavior. But do it once and you will very quickly recognize your tendencies in a conversation. Yeah, just the way you communicate in general, right?

Yeah, you just don't, you know, you have to, and also, it's exhausting to do an interview because the further you get into it, the more you focus on what they're saying and not on what you're going to say next. Yeah. And you, I have all these notes in front of me. I've written all this, you know, the intro

and, you know, our teams and Kelly Foxx and, you know, Ashley, which we'll get to later, like those people like, set up a lot of information for me to build off of, but it's so important to just listen. And when I remember to bring that in real life, I'm a better friend, I'm a better husband, I'm a better son and a better brother

when I actually use what I've learned from being a podcast host, which is you're better off just not talking. What have you learned from listening to the podcast? podcast be done a hundred times, you know, and probably wanting to say stuff. I mean, honestly, I've learned a lot about the same thing we were just talking about, but just from watching you do it because, you know, editing them, you know, going through and having to cut out all the, like the silence and all that stuff.

And all the us and Oz. I mean, even though I probably am still doing all that stuff, you just learn a lot from listening to people to have a conversation and then editing the conversation. But yeah, that stuff and of course, like all the musical knowledge that people have dropped. And I've also learned that like every songwriter and producer that we're all kind of crazy to a certain extent. We sell air for living.

Yeah, I always say it. It's a wacky job, man. It's a weird job. All right, let's keep going. From Evan Bogart, one of our first guests. if you start a song from scratch in a room, do you always feel like it should be even splits? No matter what anyone contributed or didn't contribute that day.

If not, how do you decide who gets what piece of the song? Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's always different. I feel like generally, if you're working with people that you work with a lot, you know, I generally do even splits. because some days you bring more of the table, some days other people bring more the table, and generally it kind of evens out, I feel like. But it's always different.

Yeah, I think it's a slippery slope. You know, look, if somebody's in the room and they did nothing, nothing, and all the other writers agree, then I think you can probably have an argument somewhere in there. But short of that scenario, I don't know how you don't do equal splits with everyone in the room.

Yeah, because it gets, like you said, It's a slippery slope. It gets a little weird. If somebody, you know, it's like if somebody writes an entire lyric, but the title, the song sucks and somebody comes in with some genius title, it's like that one contribution is going to be worth more than the rest of the entire song. Totally. Totally. So it's like, just because it's even real estate doesn't mean that it's worth more. Yeah. I mean, if someone comes in with a song fully written and you add like three lyrics, then it's like, okay, probably should make that. Do you take publishing if you produce a song that was previously written?

I've never done that probably not unless unless the track informs like a lot of the identity like if there's like a huge drop or a huge melody then maybe I would like ask a little for a little something but generally no I think we got like three or more or four more maybe so okay

all right let me let's see here okay cool let's do one from let's one from Benny Hey, our very first... O.G. Number one. Number one. We got to get Benny for an update. Yeah, I would love that.

Do you think Benny's going to become like a movie star after being in the... In Dave? In Dave? I mean, that guy can do whatever he wants. Okay. Ross, since the wrong man took off, have you put more of your efforts into theatrical world? We kind of did this one a little bit, but theatrical world instead of more traditional songs. running.

Well, quarantine really, you know, kind of solidified that because the theater world is... Is it still shut down? Oh, yeah. I mean, where are you going to put people? They can't put them in a 200-year-old theater and you can't have a bunch of cast backstage. Have they done any sort? I know, like, the Hamilton did like a live thing, didn't they? I don't.

Are they recorded it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was recorded years ago. You know, that was recorded one. That wasn't just because of COVID. They already... No, no, no. They were already going to do that. They are starting, theaters are opening to doing shooting, you know, film diversions, but that's a whole other conversation.

I am currently writing, you know, four or five songs a week in sessions, and I'm full songwriting mode. But I wake up at 5.30 every day. So those first two hours, I sometimes write short stories. I sometimes write for musical theater. But my efforts right now are back into like, let me get hits. But that said, I have probably two or three meetings that are either the wrong man related because we're trying to move it to a bigger stage when those do open. And, you know, I'm going to write more shows.

I love that world and I love that they tell stories that are different. There are so many things I learn from theater that work in politics. Hop. Like what? Well, one thing is how much point of view matters. You know, we're so used to being like, I'm singing to you, you're singing to me, and I'm just a guy in a place, or I'm just a woman in this place, and I'm going to sing to the opposite person.

But you rarely sing it to a friend. Maybe you do. You don't really sing it to groups in mass, but you certainly don't sing it to the butcher. You know? You don't sing it to like the, you don't sing it to the sheriff. And you don't have the perspective of like you don't, you're so trapped in pop and writing songs that are, you're writing the song to the person on the other side of the radio and the other side of the streaming service. You're not really writing songs to all of the people in this Russian town.

And in, in the, you know, late 19th century. and you're not writing to all of the people in, you know, who are in the middle of a revolutionary war in the 1800s, or late 1700s and, you know, late 18th century, you're not writing, you know, that's what makes theater fun is that you're writing often relevant music, but your point of view can really stretch your mind in a way that you just can't impop.

So if I got rid of theater completely, I think I'd be really sad. Yeah, because it probably allows you to go to that place. Yeah, but also it's like I want to make sure that I write songs that I can sing, you know, that it's not all storytelling. So it's a little bit of both. And I like the question, but currently I'm in traditional songwriting world because there is no theater world.

When do you think it's coming back? I think realistically late next summer, and they'll probably start with the shows that are too big to fail, like, you know, Phantom of the album. Sure, yeah, yeah, one's that. I want to ask another one. This one's from Andy Grammer. Oh, cool.

If you had to pick one point of unity or similarity or through line between the most successful songwriters you've spoken to, what would that be? I think that, I mean, we've kind of talked about it on a creative sense, and we've talked about it as far as insecurity goes. But as far as unity, I think we all realize that we are the importance of what we do as far as the music industry doesn't work without us, songwriters. I think what, and that's really the most important part of the unifying

if we're going to really make change is that we recognize that we do. matter and that we need to stand together and you know what emily brought up about artists coming in and saying we want publishing or you know what david israel brought up about like there is no difference between really publishers and songwriters we're all one and if we can start recognizing that then maybe we can get things like health care and maybe we can get you know i think bonnie's question goes into this yeah we'll get into that but um what do you well here i'll just run right into that okay cool um going into bonnie's question is ross you're an advocate for songwriter's rights and you are honestly one of the only ones i see talking about it what is the best way to raise awareness and take

action to get songwriters paid fairly for streaming and our intellectual property and should i just go into the other one too it's kind of a long sure question um okay uh and also part b is if we can't unionize what can we do uh since there are so many hungry um up-and-comers who are happy to waive their rights for a chance to jump into the rat race. We can't exactly strike, and we don't really want to because our job's awesome. But we got to eat, right? So in a hashtag, what can we do? Hashtag, what can we do?

Bonnie's interview is also one of my favorites. That's from the first season, too. But let me say this. Okay, so all of you. who are listening to this, who are still listening to this episode, you need to join Sona and you need to join NSAI. You can't talk about wanting to unionize and wanting to stand up for each other

if you're not going to join the trade organizations that currently exist that fight on your behalf. For almost no amount of money, you can join these two trade organizations. You can even get the closest thing we have to, like, E&O insurance through NSAI. You have, you know, a collective voice that Sona helped push that created essentially the Music Modernization Act. You know, there's, you can join organizations that exist. And the more relevant writers we have joined Sona and NSAI, the stronger our voices are NMPA exists

because all of these companies have joined force. to have their voice heard. Songwriters have that too, and yet most of you are probably not members of these organizations. So join NSAI, Nashville Songwriters Association, and or joined Sona,

which is Songs of North America. Songwriters of North America. Those two organizations are essential in our, current fight and we'll be on the forefront when we get to a point where we can unionize, where we can get health care, where we can have a collective voice to make sure people aren't taking our publishing and making sure that we can, you know, have some equity when we're fighting, streaming services and whatnot. We're going to need you guys to join those organizations.

Those will very much evolve into what we think of as a union. I love that question, by. You win points. All right, so I think this is our last one. Yeah, I saved this one for last. Oh, that's sweet. Okay. Our very good friend, Mr. Ricky Reed, been on the podcast a handful of times.

Actually, guest-hosted podcast, too. Yeah, I mean, he's our only time that we've had three. Yeah, maybe four. Yeah. Have we done four then? I don't know. Maybe three. I also want to...

Gentleman and scholar. I want him to be the guinea pig once COVID's over to doing... we talked about us a few times, but doing some like producer-leaning content on the, and the writer is like studio tour or something, because Ricky's got a dope studio. So we'll see if he's down to be the guinea pick for that. I haven't talked to him in an hour, but he did say, he said, say something nice about each other. Yes, which is a great end.

I'll let you go first so that way I can be the guy who it ends us. Yes. Well, I would, hang on, let's wait for the plane to pass. Where do you think it's going? I'm going to say probably Phoenix. Yeah, classic spot. Yeah, what time is it? It's 315, so probably Phoenix. Is that right? Michelle's dad kind of memorized a bit of the, every day at 715, the FedEx plane flies

over. It's funny. I'm just going to say that one, I love you. and two, doing this podcast has been such a fun and just like break from the normal songwriting stuff and just like a happy place to be. And a lot of it is because I get to do it with you. And so thank you for, one, allow me to jump into this idea that you had early on. And, and, too, I just, you know, I love you.

Well, I love you too. Yeah, I mean, I got to interview you, which is pretty cool that you've been a guest on this. I know, we need to have you be a guest soon. You know, I don't, I think I realize that if you've listened to 100 episodes of this, you have a pretty good idea who I am at this point. And it feels just weird to do an interview. Maybe when, maybe is our final episode. if we ever get to a final episode or something.

But yeah, it's really vulnerable to do these. More than people, I think, realize it's vulnerable for our guests. It's vulnerable for me. And I can't think of still, like, right now I couldn't think of anybody else who would have the respect for our guests the way you do and the attentiveness that you have for this podcast. and for those people to make sure that their story is so well represented every week. It is way more complicated to be you in this than people might know

because it takes somebody who's actually listening to that episode probably more than once because you're there in the moment and then you're there afterwards, making sure that our job is to facilitate their story. And now that we've lost friends like Busby and Ali Willis and stuff, you start recognizing the importance of what, in a way, what we're doing and what you're doing in that storytelling. So I couldn't do this with anybody else. So thank you.

Well, amen to that. Cheers, brother. Cheers. Cheers to that. To close out our 100th episode, I just want to say thank you to a lot of people. real quick. Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that there's a pretty big team

behind us who are helping with a lot of stuff. Yeah. Our producers, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, you know, from Big Deal and

from Mega House, both of those guys are close to us personally and, you know, they really enabled a lot of this. This doesn't, this show 100% doesn't happen without.

Ashley Alexander, who many of the guests have spoken to her. Their managers have spoken to a million times. And it certainly doesn't happen without Kelly Fox, who works with me and Unknown Music Publishing, who is the one who comes up with all the notes for me to read every week. Meg Goggins, who is we will be saying goodbye to in October. She's been there for all of our social media stuff. uh,

Zach Weinstein, who is such a smart, you know, producer of the show. He's, he's one of the few that actually knows what's happening. Yeah,

he, he knows how all the wheels turn. You know, uh, Michael White, who is the guy who does all the artwork.

I don't think we realize how, how important, uh, the, the illustrations were, but it really helped captivate things.

And, uh, Michael does an incredible, an incredible job with that. Our marketing consultant, Dodge Williams, you know, special thanks. Mark Tyndall, a legend, Miles Berg's, Maid, Fame House, Amber Packer, and now Hypnosis Songs Group. You know, we have Kenny McPherson and, you know, all of them thank you so much. But most importantly, this does not exist.

The future of the music business, does not exist without our listenership, without our fans, without our, you know, without them, you know, clearly the guests are, this doesn't exist without the guests. Yep.

Who are so willing to donate their time. And, but really the listeners are incredible. We're going to be interviewing. Pretty soon we're going to be interviewing some of the listeners we've had. Maybe the best thing, of, you know, Phineas and whatnot. Finius, as we said in his,

he's our first guest that we had that listened to the podcast before he was well known. And now he's won producer of the year for the Grammy. He's won everything. He won everything. So I think it's just a good, what an amazing guest to have as our first guest, who is really a listener of the podcast first.

But so many of you are going to be very successful. And even if you're not successful and songwriting, you'll be successful people. And because you respect even an art form that is so not tangible. And I just, I'm so happy to be a part of this 100th episode and excited to release our 101st. Cheers to that. Cheers to that. Thanks everyone for listening.

Thank you. We'll see you guys in the next 100. Bo-bo-wa-bo-w-w-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b----------------------------------. Should we change the song? Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg's mom, and published by Big Deal Music.

A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music. Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.