And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 118: Amy Allen

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

There are two stories you can tell as a songwriter: yours or someone else’s. Today’s guest not only tells the stories of some of the biggest artists in the world as a songwriter, but she also shares her story as an artist. By 10-years-old, she began writing songs for herself and learned five instruments. After graduating from Berklee College of Music, she founded New York indie upstart band, Amy & The Engine. In 2018, she wrote the multi-platinum hit “Back To You” by Selena Gomez and opened up the floodgates to collaborate with A-list talent, including Halsey (“Without Me”), Harry Styles (“Adore You”), Camila Cabello, Shawn Mendes, Sam Smith, and Marshmello. Forbes named her on the coveted “30 Under 30” list, while Variety dubbed her “Hitmaker of the Year.” Reclaiming her passion for performing in 2021, she introduces her sound as an artist on her full-length debut for Warner Records. All of her past experience has led her to this point, to creating a collection of personal and meaningful songs that make up her debut album. Her songs are lived-in tales, reminiscent of the American troubadours that have come before her - heroes like Tom Petty or Sheryl Crow, Carole King or John Prine or Bruce Springsteen. Heralded by her initial song releases and a debut album to follow, she tells her own story now. And The Writer Is… Amy Allen!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. For a little bit of context,

we just wanted you to know that a lot of these were recorded before quarantine. And as we know, a lot has changed in 2020. So again, please stay safe out there. and enjoy the new episodes of And The Writer Is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's guest is no longer a next-gen, up-and-coming songwriter because she has arrived with a vengeance.

This woman's last few years includes one of Billboard's biggest hits of all time, multiple radio smashes, and is officially a multi-platinum songwriter-turned major label artist. She bends genres and, helped define some of the biggest artists of today, including Harry Styles, Halsey, Camilla, and Sean Mendez, while maintaining a sound for herself as an artist that harkens back to when music was made by real musicians.

All of this is why she garnered a 30 under 30 spot on the list of varieties hitmakers. This East Coaster doesn't just play guitar, sing, and write songs. She runs marathons, literally, not metaphorically. but I suppose also metaphorically. And the writer is the woman who always has the best idea in the room, Amy Allen. Okay. What an intro.

I guess we can let people know that was actually the second time I read that through. Equally as painful the second time as it was the first time for me to sit through that. Are you, do not do good with compliments? No, I'm so bad with them. Why? I don't know. I think it's because I grew up in, like, doing sports, and it was very rare that, like, you would get a compliment on the team.

You would just kind of, like, get yelled at and keep going. And, like, if you were getting yelled at, it usually meant that, like, you were doing something good. But it was never, like, in a positive way. So now when I hear somebody say something good, I'm just like, oh, my God. Well, sports you're good? I played soccer and lacrosse, and I ran cross-country. but you know I wasn't a star definitely wasn't a star but I did like them I like team sports yeah do you think that that helps you as a writer definitely definitely I think that it's in soccer at

least lacrosse I was better like but soccer I was pretty am I about to swear on this yeah sure oh I'm gonna try not too soccer I was like really there are probably some there probably some things that you could say that we probably would then need to delete. But so like, I mean, within reason. But yeah, you can probably use, you know. Okay, I'm going to try my best not to swear. Soccer, I was not good at, very good.

But I was really good at, like, finding the open spaces, like, utilizing the negative space. And then, you know, all I would have to do is just, like, receive it and then kick it again to somebody. And I was, like, always good at that. And I think that has helped me a lot with songwriting. It's like allowing my brain to kind of be like, I can assist best in this way.

It's not always about like making, you know, the game winning goal. It's like about utilizing negative space and and assisting in ways that are some kind, you know, unseen sometimes. So I think it's helped me with writing for sure. And just like being a people person and knowing how to like resolve conflict or like move through something together. It's helped for sure. Yeah, the move through negative space is probably.

that's like a really early on gem for this interview because it's amazing how many writers get in their own way and suck. Yeah. And they just, they freeze whether it's in a session or it's out of a session or it's moving songs to this artist or that, all the parts of the business that get complicated.

You know, a lot of the making yourself valuable is finding a spot that's open in the business. and take that, you know? Yeah, yeah. Your whole family is athletic, right? They all run, yeah. Unfortunately, they are.

Every time we have, like, a family, like, week that we're going to spend together, it's like, we're running the half marathon. Can we just, like, chill on the couch and just, like, watch some food network and just not move for, like, a week, but it's always like, I love them, but it's always, like, a half marathon or, like, a triathlon or a marathon, which is cool. It's a good transition. I mean, your family.

family's in Maine, right? Mm-hmm. So you were born in Maine. Yeah. And you're a professional musician. I know there are a few randoms, and you probably can name them. Yeah. It's not like a really popular place.

No, it's not like a huge list, but it's, I think for me it was amazing because I grew up playing bluegrass music, and that was kind of how I got my start. So I, you know, really wanted to hone in on playing guitar. And, you know, I was doing, I was playing with my sister, one of my sisters at the time. So we were like really big into harmonies. And it kind of just like laid all the groundwork for me listening to like, you know, musicians that aren't necessarily bluegrass, but like John Prime, Dolly Parton, like people that just write beautiful stories. And I think in that realm of music, like that's what they have.

That's like the sacred part of it. So you said one of your sisters, does this mean that you have a family where, I mean, I don't know how many siblings you have. How many siblings do you have? 32. No, there's only three of us. Does it play? No.

Nobody in my family really plays. So the one directly above me, Ashley, her and I were in this all-girl rock band when I was like 10 and she was 12 and she was the drummer. And that's actually kind of how I got started because they needed a bass player. So I started playing bass in the all-girl. No, you turn rock band. We brought the house down.

But we then, I kind of like transitioned into being like, I really want to write my own song. So her and I started playing guitar together and, like, learning, you know, like Indigo girls and like Melissa Etheridge and stuff like that. And just harmonizing, even though it wasn't very good, you know. It was still fun. And we started them playing opening for this bluegrass band at, like, pubs when I was like 13 years old.

And we did it every Thursday until I, graduated high school. That was all that you were playing original music already at 13? Yeah, unfortunately. What were those songs? What were those songs called? Oh my God. I'm trying to remember.

What's the first song you wrote? The first song I wrote was about a boy when I was 10 years old. I don't remember what it was called, but I still remember a melody from it, which is so embarrassing. Oh, my God, I can't believe I'm doing this. It was like it was like, I don't even remember how this got into the boy, but I just remember

it started with like, right, okay, I didn't know that, right, okay, I didn't know that. And then I was like, I'll try again some other day, try and some... I think I can probably sing the whole song, honestly. It's really weird. But there's so much... I remember that. There's like a certain

amount of symmetry to that. And there's a certain amount of musicality to it that as much as that makes you blush, which is amazing. But as much as it makes you laugh, like, that's, I can sing it back to you. So you were doing something right. But that doesn't seem like that. When I try, always there. I never give up, but don't know.

It's like coming back to me in like waves right now. I'm terrified. But yeah, I'm listening to what you're saying. It's just all flooding. Did you play guitar? or did you write that on bass? That one probably would have been guitar. That one probably would have been guitar.

But at that age, I was definitely trying to write on both, but I found that I was, you know, it was easier to get stuff going for me on guitar. I'm curious if you've ever used, right? Okay. In like another song, at least that rhythm. So you can look back and be like, that's where the seed was.

I remember really weird things, but I don't know if you have this too, but I remember when I was like learning to spell. So I don't know what age this would have been, but I would come up with little melodies that helped me learn how to spell words. And I still remember like a few of them, which is weird.

I wake up singing them sometimes. Like I had one for the word people. And it was like, P-E-O-P-L-E-P-L-E people. And I would literally just like learn how to spell that way. I think that was probably my earliest memory of like using music to like figure shit out. Did your parents recognize that talent?

I think so. I think by the time I was like 10 and I was like begging them to like join the jazz band in school and and things like that. Obviously they knew that I was into it. But I was so into sports and figure skating. Oddly enough, my sisters and I were like we'd go to Delaware every summer to train for figure skating. and like a lot of our friends ended up going to the Olympics. And we all kind of like backed out around the age of like 12 or 13.

So it was just like at the point where we'd have to get homeschooled. But I was so into sports that I never really imagined music coming into the foreground for my life. It was just like my way of, you know, moving through childhood and middle school and high school. But by the time I got to high school, I think they realized that was pretty serious about it. when you're in a competitive sport like figure skating where everyone is an individual and then you are a you know and then you're playing soccer which is a team sport do you find that those have any sort of a is any of that applicable to being an artist and a songwriter is that are those are that like you were saying you like that's so interesting you liked being on

team sports. I find that a lot of artists aren't necessarily as good at team players as they might be figure skaters, you know? Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think I've never thought of it that way, but I think maybe just kind of hit the nail on the head about why I made,

like why I want to always be doing both is because I think a lot of people don't want to do both. I think they just settle into one or the other probably, but I, for me, it's like been always so much about connection with people. That's, oh, I think that's why I got into it. And that's why I loved it. And being able to like show my mom or my dad or my sister's something I had written that day. And, you know, my friends at school or whatever and see if something would connect with them and make them feel something.

And I think as a songwriter, you get that moment in the room, which is so beautiful. And then you kind of just like, you know, you hand it off. and you get to see if that song has a life in the world or not. And it's amazing because, you know, like adore you or without me. If I'd put those songs out right now, like they would not have had the same life as if, you know, Harry or Halsey did. And so it's amazing to watch it go onto that spectrum, but you don't have that moment of being on stage and, like, having that connection and seeing somebody resonate with it at the same time that you're singing it. And I think the team sport person in me loves the writing process in a room with another artist because it's so much of like, I'm trying and I hand it off and then you go and you hand it off. And I love that, you know, interaction and the back and forth.

But I also love just like pushing myself as hard as I can and to, you know, get something honest and truthful to me and having that moment of personally sharing it. it's always been this kind of like this for me. And I love both. And I think it's important to have both, honestly. But I do think they definitely play off each other for sure. Well, in this segment that we call, what would Aaron Beechuk ask Amy Allen? I don't know.

Aaron Bechuk asked, you know, how do you separate your writing for yourself versus writing for others? And they creatively, you mentioned how that hits you emotionally when some people record your songs, but do you actually write differently when you write for other people, or do you tend to write your song,

and sometimes it makes sense for you, and sometimes it makes sense for others? Yeah. I'd say I know pretty early on in the song if it's going to be something for me. Because if I feel like I've hit a nerve of something that's so personal to me, and I can't imagine anybody else singing it,

that's usually when I'm like, I got to keep this. And I think it's really nice to do both. And that's why I always want to do both because there's actually something really freeing about being like a couple hours into the session and being like, this isn't for me, but I still love this. And I can just like let go a little bit. And I can just like breathe. And if the song moves into like an area where it's not something I naturally tend to go to,

It's really cool to see that have a life and it helps me become a better writer, just like anybody, because when you're kind of pushed outside of your own comfort zone, that's when you're, you know, learning and connecting dots. So it's, I mean, it's nuts. There's been a few where I didn't know. Like, that's the song I put out a few weeks ago called Heaven. Initially, I wasn't writing that for me, which was ridiculous. I don't know why, because I was talking about addiction within my, you know, extended family,

whole time we were writing it and then when I ended it I was like of course of course this has to be mine but it took a little while to like let that click that that was something I needed to release so yeah it's a journey it's definitely a journey I mean you started off as an artist I think a lot of people don't realize that it wasn't like you were a songwriter for other people and then people are hey you should be an artist you were always an artist and like you're saying when you're in this band, U-turn what? No, U-turned. I mean, that was like age 10 until like 30.

No, I know. And then after that, you said you were getting into Lilith Bear. I mean, those seeds probably had a lot to do with what your sound now is, which is there's this movement. I feel like for some, you know, some musicians who want to release music that reminds us of real sort of sitting down with your guitar. songwriting sitting at your piano and songwriting and not just write over tracks, right over tracks, like you know, take away those and

and just copy paste kind of songwriting instead this it always feels like real songs. Yeah, it's so interesting. The whole world now is like really focused on like this single culture where it's like put out a song, see how it reacts, put on another one, see how it reacts and it's

in a way I totally get it and I, it's helped break so many artists that are amazing, but I just always grew up, you know, listening to music that my dad listened to, which is like any white dad in America, which is like classic rock. And I just fell in love with listening to album from start to finish. And my dream has always been to like try to make a rumors or, you know, like something that has a story to it and an arc to it. And maybe not every single song is like a radio bang. anger, but they tell like a personal story that will hopefully resonate with somebody.

So that's just always been like my, sorry, my through line with music, I guess. I just always wanted to make an album. One of the other things, Bayshack asked, and by the way, Aaron Bayshack, for those who don't know, is the head of Warner Brothers Records, where you are signed. He's a good friend of ours. We love Aaron. we do love Aaron and and he said

he was talking because he mentioned the idea of as one of the other questions is sort of how does an artist reconcile with sounding classic in an era where you know in how does an artist

promote their music in an era where with 2020 social media you know and I think that's a complicated thing for anybody who's trying to write music that isn't

you know another sax sample on like a garage band kind of drum loop yeah it's a complicated thing in a world that's been like dwindled down to like TikTok

which is like what like up to 60 seconds or whatever it is it's like how how do you have integrity and make something that you believe in and keep up with this like trend that's just like next next next next you know it's It's hard. It's really hard. Bring back Lilif Fair. For those people who don't know a Lilith Fair is, you know, when you said

Indigo Girls and I imagine the Cheryl Crows of the era and whatnot, you know. Yes. How do we bring back that kind of music? Yeah, I think more people making it. I mean, if that's what's true to you, I think, I think it's, you know, music is all, you know, cycle. It's like a cyclical thing, I think, and, you know, You go through the DJ phase and you go through the whatever phases it's in. And I think that I hope, at least I think that music is trending back into live bands playing and people watching somebody perform their instrument that they've been working for years on how to, you know, play.

I think that I think when we have live shows again, hopefully in 2021, maybe 2022, that we start to trend back to that. This is another like random anecdote. but in the 30s when the depression was really, you know, early 30s when the depression was worse, the worst, the music industry was dying. And it wasn't until swing music started breaking and people started leaving their, you know, they were all really depressed. And that's when you had this need for communal music.

And basically, you know, 1933 to 1940 is only this really fun dancing communal vibe that really pulled the country out of depression. And I feel like we're going to need people who come up with these, you know, come up with music that makes us want to go to live shows. Yeah. You know, those are going to be the people when we're out of this that are going to thrive. or when people come up with music that doesn't, that shouldn't just sound like headphones,

but you need to be around other people. And I feel like you sort of, you know, I'm excited to see you live. But that said, you know, going back to the initial pursuit, you actually went to school for music. Did you ever think about going to school for anything else? So I did go to school for something else. You did?

Here's the ticker. Yeah, I went to Boston College for two years. Oh. If I had a high school, I went to B.C. was studying in the nursing program. I was learning, like, my biochemistry major. And I loved it. And my grandmother was a nurse, and I would just, it was one of those things.

When you're like 17, it's still so nuts to me that people look at you and you're 17 and like, all right, pick what college? Do you want to go to? you want to be when you grow up. It's like, it's nuts to me. But anyways, in my head, I wanted to be a nurse. And I went to BC. And I really did like it. But then I remember I went, this is so embarrassing. I went to the movie theaters and I watched Twilight with my boyfriend. And there's this scene where she's like birthing this demon child. And it's like super graphic. And I blacked out. I passed out in movie theater. And he had to like carry me out of the movie theater. And I like came to you on the side of the road. And I was like, what am I doing? I just blacked out in twilight. I can't be a nurse.

What the heck? And I literally had this like revelation where I was like, I got a, nope, got to change. Got to change. So yeah, that was my like come to moment a year into BC. And then I had to do like one more year. I think my parents really wanted me to stick it out and see if I was, you know, just having like a little bit of a first year meltdown. So I stuck it out and I joined like an Acapella group and I was like, beep boba, bo, ba, blah, blah. And I was like, nope, also not satisfying.

So then I transferred to Berkeley. What was your Acapella group? Oh my God. They were called, oh no. I hope nobody from this Acapella group ever hears this because now I can't remember. There's like two big ones at Boston College. I don't know.

Acapella on the East Coast. But I just remember we were doing like, me a river. Yeah, Acapella is serious. I was the only person to ever leave this Acapella group and the history of its 100 and like something years. I was like shamed. Shamed. I was in an

Acapellah group. Acapella groups were like in college, people don't know anything about it, don't realize that in some places, especially in the East Coast, in the Midwest, the Big Ten schools, those Acapella groups, they bring thousands and thousands of people to these shows.

Like, literal Ocena's filled with people to come see Acapella groups and I think people think that that's especially in L.A. where it's not huge, they don't necessarily recognize how massive.

I definitely, I certainly did not recognize this was like a very like, oh, I had no idea. And the second I was in it, I was like, turn the car around. This is not for me. So why did you go to, like,

what's, you know, that's a pretty, you were in jazz, and then, you know, in high school, you said, and then you're in an a cappella group in college, to then go to a music school, what were your expectations going to a music school? I mean, obviously you liked being in Boston because you stayed and you went to Berkeley,

but why would you go to music school? I was honestly thinking about that last night when I found out we were going to be doing this interview today because I was trying to figure out, like, where I had that and like confidence to make that transition

because it's a pretty ballsy thing to do and I I think I was just in such a bad place like I was so upset at BC because I couldn't be doing what I wanted to be doing and I was just

you know I had gotten by the end of like year one and a half there and it's a brilliant school but I just you know it wasn't for me I I think in my head something just clicked

and I was like there are no other options it is like go to this school and make this work and figure it out or like there's just no plan B. And yeah, I think that I just like songwriting was what I knew I was best at. And I was like, well, if I'm going to give anything a shot in this world, it's definitely not being a nurse at this point. So I might as well do what I know how to do and like write songs. And I just did it. And I honestly didn't, I wasn't scared at all about it. Which now if somebody told me to make a life switch like that, I kind of just did

actually going into the artist thing again. But it seems so scary looking back on it. I was like, oh, my God. I almost like cringe thinking about me making that decision. But yeah, I just went for it. I don't even know. How do you know you're good at songwriting at that age? Because my assumption is, you know, whether you've sold,

had you sold any CDs yet at that point? Had you sold any, like as an artist? Well, I made, I did make like my senior project in high school. made this like, um, EP and I, the proceeds were going to this orphanage that I had worked out for a little while, but I, so like in Maine on the radio, they would play that some of the songs from that CD once in a while. So like in end of high school, going into freshman year, like I was still going back to Maine and like playing shows, but I wasn't a good songwriter. To say that is not the term I would have used. I was really bad. But it was the only thing that I knew

had to do to make myself feel like fulfilled in any way. Yeah, I definitely wasn't good. Let the record be known. When at Berkeley did you start putting together, you know, Berkeley's an interesting school. A lot of people don't finish or a lot of people, you know, do finish, but, you know, end up in jazz combos or end up going to school for nursing after they go to Berkeley, It's not every, you know, not all of everybody who goes to Berkeley ends up becoming successful, but there has to be a point, you know, and my guess you were in school with a bunch of people that are really successful in this business, you know. Yeah. And a lot of people that aren't doing music anymore. And I think, I think the way that I found my way through Berkeley is coming

from a family that is really driven and athletics have been like driven into me to kind of have this, like killer instinct is strong but this like see your goal and like do not get off track like just go for it and I mean there are people that aren't doing music anymore that I was friends at Berkeley that are like exponentially more gifted than I am like exponentially and they didn't have that like one track mind you know they were a true artist and a million things going on all the time and getting sidetracked and, you know, not deciding on what, you know, they could, they just didn't put it all together, which is fine. But I was the very much so the less talented, but had the, you know, the drive to see it through even when I was like absolute shit. I just

kept going. I mean, there's, there's no question that ambition and entrepreneurship are as are more valuable often in the music business than talent. But you also have the talent, enough so that, you know, and you were on the voice. Oh, no. I knew this was going to surface. It's important. God damn it, Ross.

It has a journey and it probably brought you to L.A. Jesus. Did it not? It did. That was something I left out, but here we are, alas. That was alongside the twilight moment where my sister in like our small town Maine was like the radio station is like giving out these like golden tickets to like jump the cattle call or whatever at the voice audition and blah blah blah. I don't even remember where the fucking thing was. But she was like, you just get to go. And I think it was in Atlanta, honestly. You get to go and, you know, there will only be like 300 people instead of like 3,000 people at this audition because they've already gone through one round. And I was like, okay, I was at BC. I was unhappy. I didn't know what I was going to be doing.

So I was like, you know what? Okay. So I went and I sang, girl, put your records on. I love that song. And I was wearing like cowboy boots. It was like a train wreck, but I somehow made it through the first round, and then I made it through the next round and the next round and the next round. And my sister and I were looking at each other the whole way, like, what is going on?

Like, they must be delusional to be letting me through these rounds right now. But anyways, I ended up making it to, like, L.A. And that was the first time I'd ever been to, like, L.A. proper. And I, you know, we stayed at this, like, hotel. And I didn't even make it plus blind auditions. But the whole thing took, like, eight months out of my life at that point, because it was like season two, so everything took a long time. And they would fly a, I flew me back to Boston and then back to LA and blah blah.

And then, yeah, I got to the blind auditions and they had me singing, um, life is a highway. And I won't say who, but one of the judges turned around at that moment was like, why would you pick that song? And I was like, I didn't pick that song. I, anyways, it was this whole thing. but it didn't go well for me. But it did, it was the first time I was surrounded by people that were like doing like

kumbaya circles and singing until like two in the morning. And I was like, yeah, this is, this is my God. Is that the difference between, you know, you said John Prine and Dolly Parton, that those people were inspirations? My assumption is having done bluegrass, even. Indigo girls that Rootsy music was probably something you were going to end up

doing at some point. Is that the moment where you decided Los Angeles over Nashville? Or was that ever a discussion? I actually wanted to go to Belmont, but my mom was like, if you're transferring you got to stay in Boston. So I

somehow had never even heard of Berkeley. I was like living under a rock and it was just never on my radar that I could do music for a living. Even though I knew of Carol King who was like an artist and writing for other people and obviously making a very incredibly successful career. I never like put those dots together that I could write for other people. So yeah, I, I wanted to go to Nashville honestly. But I never, I still don't classify myself as a country artist. I just love telling stories. That's what I've always loved about music. And

those that oftentimes if you're playing guitar and trying to tell a story and using a few chords, you know, kind of in the country lane. Yeah, I don't think of you as country. It's just interesting when you come to L.A. and you get exposed to the voice, which is the pinnacle of commercial music. Yeah. That's like that. That's the epitome of commercial music, I should say.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's a pinnacle. I think that was kind of my takeaway from it. too. And I was really hesitant as an East Coast or through and through. I was like, I'm not going to like L.A. I moved to New York for a year after college. And that's how I met Scott Harris and started writing for other people. But I was so anti-L.A. And then once back to you came out, I was kind of like, okay, I want to like, I want to make the jump now. So. Yeah. Okay. So, you know,

skipping over a few things, you move to New York. Where did you live in New York? How do you live in New York after college? I, well, I was working at Lulu Lemon at the time. So I had saved up a lot of money from that. I was working a lot. And also my band had been like playing. I started a band my first year at Berkeley.

And we were playing like our asses off. We were playing shows all up and down the East Coast. And I was making, we were making like decent money doing that. I mean, obviously I was losing money. for a long time the first probably like three and a half out of four years we were losing money and then when we kind of like cross that you know threshold we started making money which was really exciting to see but it was also so tiring because it was like me and my best friend cayley driving the car with like the you know three dudes in the back and staying in like gross motels and it was just it was a lot but it was so

fun so I had money kind of like saved up and moved to New York and I was living right at the base of the Manhattan Bridge. So it was like technically Dumbo, but not like the nice part of Dunbo. It was kind of like downtown Brooklyn vibes. But I honestly really liked it. I just. When you were in, so your band was Amy and the engine, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So you're on the East Coast. You've just done four years. Did you have to, was the band sad that it ended? Were you like, I got to quit, I got to go to New York? Yeah, I think that it was a bit of an abrupt ending, but I kind of felt it building just because I knew that I needed a next chapter, and they actually, a few of them moved.

And Malo, who's the drummer, who was the drummer of Amy and the Engine, is actually my drummer now still. He's in L.A. and he's playing with me, which has been a blast. But it was abrupt. It was like very much so on the track of the band, on the band, on the band. And then I met Scott Harris. And literally like that day, I was like, I need to do this. It was something clicked to me and I was just like,

I need to get better at writing songs if I'm going to do this for real. So I never really lost track of wanting to do the artist thing. I just went on like a two and a half year hiatus to be able to write better songs. And that's kind of how these songs happened. You met Scott, former guest on this show, and you meet him through, I believe, your attorneys, right? Something like that, wasn't that? It was his, so when Scott was an artist a long time ago, I think it was his early, early manager. And this guy would now become an attorney.

And somebody that was doing a seminar at Berkeley put me in contact with this guy. And it's like, when you moved to New York, you should just go meet with him, like, he's interested. So I went and met with him and I played him my band stuff and he was not interested in the band stuff, but he was like, your songwriting is really good. You should meet this guy I managed. I haven't talked to him in like 15 years, but he's really good. And he sent Scott some songs I had written, I guess, and Scott and I worked like the next day. It was like day two I was in New York. What's the name of the attorney?

the manager got it I don't remember he was at AAM amazing I mean Scott Scott's obviously very talented but he hadn't really

signed other writers it's not like that was something he was doing so sort of that really opened up a new thing and you know I guess in this next segment what would Scott Harris ask Amy Allen

no he actually has a few questions for you He said, did you buy a microphone yet? Yes, I did. I have a freaking microphone. Okay. Number two is, can you send me the song? That's a great one.

This is our relationship in a nutshell, honestly. This is our... I really like this next one, which we'll get into, but it must, there must, there's a lot of depth in this, actually. He said the song is number. number one, how much higher do you want it to go? Oh my gosh. This haunts me.

This haunts me. Why? This just hit a nerve. Because I think about this a lot. And it's like once you have a song go number one, you're always just trying to get back to that place. And it's strange. Even when you get to number one,

it's like it's still for some reason, like not as gratified. as you think it will be. And I don't know why. I know that that's something within me that I need to like examine. But anybody I know that's had a number one is at the exact same feeling. I don't know anybody that's had one that's been like,

I'm good. I'm done. That was the best thing. I can leave now. You know, like it's pretty nuts. Scott and I've talked about this a bit. But it's definitely the curse of being a writer slash artist slash musician.

It's crazy. I think something that is within you to want to be in this career. rear is the thing that is also like when you get something like that you're like not good enough so though it's certainly an opiate in that way there's no question that there's a uh an addictive quality to trying to get a song that works but it's true it's you can't really believe it once it's on its way up or going down you kind of just your head down i'm always impressed with the people who don't really, I once had a song.

It was like, it was my first number one song was a country song. I went in and I told a couple of my co-writers, I was like, the song's number one. It happened to work with them a year later, like, to the date. And they were like, oh, I didn't even know that song came out.

Shut up. Yeah, because it was a country number one. They just weren't focused on it. And it was, it wasn't that they were not, like, excited about it. They just, that's just not what they do. Yeah. I honestly, get that. I try to be like that as most as I can. Like if I have a song that's anywhere on the charts, I just tell Gabs, we haven't talked about, but who is my heart and soul in such a big reason why I'm making music where I am right now. I'm just like, don't say anything to me unless

something extraordinary happens, meaning it crosses into like top five or it plummets. Then you can tell me if it plummets. But like, don't, I don't want to know anything in between. I don't want to know anything in between because it just you know it's like what's the point honestly it just stresses you out and once the song has been recorded and it's released it's just like out of your hands it's just like into the ocean

but that's a hard hard thing to grapple with do you find success to be where a song charts I think for the past two the first two years I've lived here for

I guess the first year and a half. I've lived here for about two and a half years. I've been writing for other people. And I think for the first year, it was just trying to, I think back to you went to like number three or something. And that was the first song I ever had cut by any artist. And I was so excited.

And it was a bit of a jading experience because the first song I ever had cut, you know, did really well. But it didn't go to number one. And Scott was and still is my idol. and I knew that he had a bunch of number ones and I was just like, I just want to be as, I want to like, I want to write a song that I'm so proud of

that the world is all so proud of and like responds to essentially. And I watched my role model, Scott, do that, you know, time and time again. And I was just like, I just want to be a good enough writer to do that. And so I don't remember even what the question was, but wait, remind me what the question was. I mean, my initial question was, do chart positions? Oh, Dutarch positions define success. I think for like a year and a half of this past two and a half, almost three years, they did. Because once I got into it and I got kind of like a taste of it with Back to you,

which didn't go number one, but went like number three or number two. Then I was like into gear. I was like, okay, I like, I kind of have a taste of this now. I'm like going to write a number one song now, which is strange because that's not why I love music and that's not why I got into music when I was like eight years old. And but then that be kind of like came why I was, you know, waking up every day and like doing doubles all the time and getting anxiety. If I said no to a session later in the day being like, wait, I should have gone.

What if I could have, you know, like, what? So I think that for like a year, a year and a half, it was. And I was like kind of manic about it. and without me happened, which I'm so incredibly grateful for, because that song really changed my life. But I think after without me happened, and I felt what it feels like to have a song go number one, it redefined what success is to me in writing for other people

and in writing for myself. Because to have the feeling of song going number one and being really excited about it, but not feeling like, you know, I'm like, you know, accomplished everything I want to accomplish in music. I can go home and be happy forever now. It just re-invigorated this thing in me where I was like, oh, I'm making music because I want to connect with people and I want to express my emotions

in a way that help somebody else feel something, maybe they, you know, or talk about something or realize something in themselves. So yeah, I think it's an ever-evolving definition I probably have of what success is in music, but for a while there it definitely was for me to find by getting a number one song. And back to you's happened in a really unusual way. A lot of people will spend their whole life trying to have a song get cut by a major artist, let alone have it be a single, let alone have it be a single that reacts. And so when you have zero expectations,

and it's all amazing. Yeah, completely. That was like the most on ride. because I had negative expectations. I was still at the point where I would like, I would go in and write with like somebody's niece. You know, I was like not at the point where I was saying no to anything at that point.

I was just like, get me in the room. I don't care. I don't even care if this person knows how to sing or if they've ever written a song. Like, I'll go in the room and just like, go for it. And so when back to you happened, it was definitely like, well, it was nice for me. I do remember I worked with,

a friend of mine who this was years and years ago where it was a big session for me but the guy just had a number one song, just had had a hit. And I remember he was, he was working out with Max Martin and Max had said to him, like, you know, you're a hit writer now, act like one. And I thought that there was something, and it wasn't like in a, in like a, it wasn't a negative pejorative way.

Yeah, it was like have confidence. It was like, you know, you have limited time. and you have limited ideas, focus. And it's game time now. Now it's like act like a... And what I love about that is if you want to be a real writer, acts like a professional. You know what I mean?

You wrote without me after you wrote back, after Back to You worked though, correct? Yeah. So this was once you knew on some level, oh, your songs are going to have access. Right? So when you wrote without me, which really is like also epitomize

a sort of, I think in a lot of ways, if you produce that in a totally different way, that's a very Amy Allen kind of song. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Did you write it with Halsey in mind or did you write, knowing her situation, or did she see, or did it just happen that her situation with her ex-boyfriend and all that stuff ended up, you know, cosmically? Yeah, it was a happy, it was definitely a happy coincidence.

I was, I've never, ever been good. I honestly don't know if I've ever got a song cut where I went into the session being like, I'm going to try to write for this person, or even like halfway through the session if I'd been like, okay, this feels like we can do this. Let's kick it into like 5% more of this artist to see if we can get. I don't think I've ever had a song cut that way, ever. I'm really bad at that, actually. I think I write my worst songs when I do that.

So I, no, no, I didn't have that in mind. And Belacey and I, like, the night before, I sent her this, like, little tiny poem snippet. And I was just like, I love this. It was something about, you know, women putting men on pedestals and men just forgetting, like just like being in the sky and just like forgetting. It was like a one line, but I just like, in my brain, it just like sparked something from like some X that I had. And the Lacey completely was on board.

And we got in that day and it was just like one of those dream rights where it was like an hour and a half. And of course we were with loose bell who's awesome. And we just, you know, it was so fun and so easy. And Halsey connected with it right away. I know when she heard it and she, you know, changed some lyrics and wrote the bridge and made it come to life. I mean, her vocal on it just completely made the song. And so, yeah, it was just a dream session,

but no, it didn't have anybody in mind. That, in that particular situation, you know, back to you, you're kind of, it just, it sort of happens. Mm-hmm. without me the success of it how did it feel not being the artist just to give some stats around how big was 29 weeks in the top 10

at Hot 100 when you start realizing that a year is 52 weeks that means for more than half the year for more than half a year your song was just played constantly not just played it was consumed constantly because that's the billboard chart

So even though when number one at radio, even though it was, you know, it's on its way to being diamond over however many years I'm sure it will get there, like that kind of hit is a different thing than, you know, even Scott, who's had a lot of hits, without me is a record-breaking hit. You know, I imagine that that gets really complicated

when you get competitive. Did you feel any competition with the artist, not having been the vocalist? No. Not on that one at all. Honestly, never any song that I've written that another artist has taken have I ever felt competitive

because especially at that time, I wasn't even thinking at all about putting my own stuff out. I was so, like I said, after Back to you, I was just like so head down trying to get to this like spot of like getting a song that I could be like I did it I wrote a song that was a number one song that I was you know I felt really really proud of and I do feel really proud of that one but I didn't

have any ounce of like I wish I had kept that one because that was just so meant for Halsey when you have two really big songs next to each other um do you start assuming every song is it easy do you start thinking it's easy do you are your expectations not just when a song's a single that you hope that it reacts to radio but are yours so do you have expectations that when you're done with a session that that song is you know should be bigger i mean how do you deal with the expectations in a session when you when your first couple cracks at it are hits it's jading honestly it is because every you know if i'm writing 300 songs a year which probably am. And I try to explain this to people all the time.

You're writing 300 songs a year? I bet. I bet between 250 and 300. Yeah, I'm writing, there's 52 weeks in the year. Yeah, I bet you I'm writing between 250 and 300. Crazy. And I just, when, and that's not even good. I mean, this is me continuously trying to find what my ebb and flow is, because I don't actually think that that's the most productive. I think I look at a lot of writers that I strive to be more like who are only writing two or three days a week because those other, you know, four days are the days when they're living and getting new experiences. So I'm trying to like work on my ebb and flow of what is actually the most productive. But I would say the year that without me was written, I was probably writing

300 songs that year. Anyways, if one of those breaks through, that's a really low batting average. So I kind of like very quickly realized like, okay, this is, you know, this one got through the cracks. That's amazing. But I definitely, like, I still do. Every time I walk into a session, I have, like, slight imposter syndrome where I feel like I'm living in one of those, like, rom-coms where you, like, switch bodies with somebody and then you have to go to their, like, work presentation and, like, give the work presentation as if you're the right person in the right body.

And I'm, I have that almost every time I walk into a session for, like, 10 minutes. It's never gone away. I walk in and I'm like, I don't, I genuinely, I don't feel like I'm in the right body. I feel like I don't know how to write a song. I have it every day. Do you know a songwriter? No, it's never gotten easier for me, no. Do you know as songwriter who, you know, who's not that way?

I feel like I can actually now think of some other things in that. Yeah, and I think I can. I definitely can. I definitely can, but I've always had a bit of like an anxiety to me about songwriting. Like I love it. It's the thing that gives me the most peace, but it's also the thing that causes me the most anxiety for sure. You've been with a lot of artists where,

it's the beginning of their careers and you're kind of going with them on their journey. You know, artists like Fletcher and, you know, who you have songs, you've had multiple songs with. And then you've also, you know, you've had more songs with Halsey.

You know, does it matter to you at this point whether the person has had hits or whether the person has potential? Do you prioritize one over the other? I try to take my best. I try to take any accolades out of it.

Because obviously if something comes up, like one opportunity to write with Harry came up, I obviously jumped at that because he's somebody that makes music that I adore and I completely identify with the way he experiences music and makes music. So that was so exciting. But I also am equally excited about somebody

if Gabs, my manager and A&R essentially sends me somebody that, you know, is completely just starting out and has come across her radar that she thinks is good or somebody that I find. Like I, I find that I learned so much from people just as much if they've had a bunch of pits versus if they haven't. Because if you haven't, you kind of come into the world with this, like, naive, like, try anything, like not scared, which I think there's so much to learn from those people. and it's exciting to try to help somebody in that world. So, no, I don't really have a preference or prioritize either one. I find a lot of value in working with both, honestly. Harry Stiles is a brilliant writer, and a lot of people who haven't spent time with him in his studio

don't realize how talented that guy is. He's amazing. And, you know, you, and, you know, the next biggest, song that you have that's just also huge was adore you. Tell me a little bit about, you know, at this point you had had probably about only a year between without me and adore you. Obviously without me is sort of become an evergreen that just sort of sticks around. Did you find that to be a relief for that to come out?

Did you find that to be, you know, how did you feel about adore you not? being another song that probably is closer. I feel like that's the closest to you as an artist as far as it, you know, it feels like it's closer to you. Did that song help bridge, you know, convince you to go back to being an artist? Were you already thinking about it?

I mean, tell me about that era around adore you. So two Grammys ago, I was playing at this writer's show. showcase and they asked me to do, you know, play like a couple songs and I played without me on bass. And I was like, I never, before this happened and now I cry all the time, but before this happened, I probably hadn't cried in like 10 years. I just was like not a crier, never cried. I wanted to, would like beg my eyes to like cry, but they wouldn't. And I got up on stage and I was like playing bass and I was probably like three

three notes into playing without me. And I just started like welling up with tears. And I was like, what the hell is going on? And I looked at Gabs and I was like, what do I do? Because I was so scared. I didn't know why I was crying. And I got off stage. I performed it.

And I looked at her and I was like, I need to make an album. Like, I have to. That was just like something switched in me when I was playing that song. And I was back on stage and I was looking at people resonating with the lyrics of that song playing it stripped down and I was just something just like clicked in me so I immediately like literally the following week started like bringing together some songs I had written for myself over the past couple of months um you know that I would just have written like at home or whatever and started playing them for some labels and just kind of was like gauging if it was something and Aaron of course I ended up

going with Aaron and um back um adore you was written like five months into that process so i was already i wasn't so scared about trying to get another big song because i had made the mental switch of like okay i'm in like me world now i'm still of course writing with people that i love um because i'll always do that but i was definitely in like trying to make my album territory at that point One of the things we talked about earlier was, you know, how music really pulls people out of really dark times. And when the pandemic started, I think the first tweet I put out was, was there are going to be a lot of major chords this year. So true. And during that, right in the beginning, you released Be Kind with Halsey and Marshmallow, which,

as a title and as a genre tend to be really positive. My assumption is that was written before the pandemic started. Yeah, yeah. But the timing of it really worked out. Yeah. This is the first time any of us have felt, you know, being quarantined, not playing shows and whatnot.

How do you think, you know, that song, especially even this year how that song has resonated with people, how have you felt about that song in comparison to the other songs you've had that have been high profile singles? Oof. Bekind was

I loved writing that song. I absolutely loved it with Gianne and Freddie. We had, it was just one of those days where I had like a lot of pent-up emotion and we all just got on the train and felt the same thing. It's, you know, it's always an amazing feeling, you know, even though that song didn't go number one or anything.

It's, for me, those are like wins because when you're putting something positive into the world, which is, it's hard to do as a songwriter. That sounds crazy, but I think anybody that writes songs, most people can understand that it's, or would agree with the fact that it's easier to write a slow, sad song than it is to write a genuine, like, up-tempo positive thing that you're putting into the world. Like they're just harder to write and not make them cheesy and not make them, you know, just, I don't know, not hit home or something. They just, it's harder. And I've always, that's always been hard for me. And I think most people would probably describe me as like a pretty happy person, but my music is usually darker. And be kind and adore you are, I think like the only kind of like happy uptempo that I've ever had come out ever. And so that one was really special for me because I think it's, it's a.

important to be putting that into the world, especially right now. You know, it's, it's just needed. It's really needed. So that one, you know, regardless of charting or anything, that one felt really nice. I was going to ask, did that affect the way you view the song? Charting. No. Oh, charting.

No. That one, I really, like, needed that one. And I was just grateful for that one to be out because I remember sitting on the couch. For the first, like, two months of the pandemic, my boyfriend and I were in Montana at his aunt and uncle's place that they, um, weren't using and they were letting us stay in. And I was in kind of like a dark place,

even though we were in the most beautiful place. It was kind of all starting to hit home that week for me that music wasn't going to be the same for a while. And I had just signed a record deal because all I wanted to do was tour. You know, that's the only reason why I wanted to go back into playing my own stuff. So I was kind of in like a very like, oh, you know, not so great. creative mindset. And that song came out. And I personally, this sounds selfish, but I, like, really needed that song that day. And I didn't even care, you know, what happened with it. I was just so

happy that it was out in the world and that if anybody was feeling the same way, I was feeling that, you know, maybe that, I don't know, people just need to hear positivity, I think, during all of this. So I was really grateful. Chart, charting didn't really matter to me on that one at all. you work with a lot of positive songwriters and producers. I mean, I know them as people and a lot of them are really positive people. Do you choose to write with, you know, you can choose to write with anybody. Why do you choose to write with the people you choose to write with? The people I go back to writing with a lot are people that I think are just like the ones that I feel comfortable hanging out with and saying,

It's scary. You know, it's honestly, when I come home from a session and I tell it to my boyfriend, he's like, oh, that's nuts that you share all of that with the people that you sometimes barely know or like, and it's like a really sacred thing. And sometimes I forget that because it's like our job. So, you know, especially during the two years where I was really just writing for other people, I was just like walk in, sit down, talk about my deepest, darkest demons, leave. You know, it's just very, it's a strange thing.

So the people that I choose to work with are definitely people that I've started this rapport with that are positive. I think just it can be a dark profession. You know, you're in like dark rooms all the time. You're talking about your deepest emotions. I think it's really nice for me to work with people that are, you know, positive people that bring some light into it. And also people that view music the same way that I do and that play instruments and have this same like very physical relation. with music. It's important to me. Well, that brings in the next segment

of what would John Bellion ask Amy Allen. Oh, no. John Bellion asked a few questions. He says, favorite episode of New Girl and why? Oh, my God, I love New Girl. It is a great question. Oh, it's so good. I was actually just rewatching some of it the other day.

I don't know. That's so hard to pick. I just, oh, my God. That one, triggers me. I'm so obsessed with that show. Okay, second one. I love the one where they're in. They can't touch the ground. They're playing that game where they can't touch the ground and they're all

jumping around on, oh my God. They play lava. They play lava. Yeah, the lava floor, whatever it is. Oh, my God. It's so good. If you got a dog, what kind would you get? Probably. I never had dogs growing up because I'm really allergic

to them, but now I'd have to get a hypoallergenic. My sister has. I think I would probably get a golden doodle. I've always loved golden doodles. They're so cute. And the last question John asked was... These questions. John Bellion, also former guest and a good friend. The best. He says, Alex, my wife asks, Shag, Mary, Kill. No.

Leo DiCaprio, Johnny Depp, George Clinton. Oh my God. Shag, Mary Kill. Honestly, I love this question, Alex. I appreciate you for this. I would probably... Wait, Leo, George Clooney, and who? Johnny Depp.

I probably marry George Clooney, kill Leonardo, Shag Johnny. Wow. Fascinating. And I love Leo. I'm a big young Leo fan. No, I don't even want to kill Leo.

Don't make me kill Leo. I do love Leo. I don't know. Those are on my men. I love that. I'll ask Leo what do you think next time I assume. Okay, so you're now releasing a lot of music as an artist. I know you're writing a little bit for other people,

but once you're in the writing for your artist stuff, do you feel like, is there a part of you that feels like you're closing a chapter on writing for other people? Or is it time management? You know, what are the next steps for somebody who's like you're still at such a beginning part of your career and you've had so much happen already? I think it's definitely never going to be a chapter or closer for me because I think that's what makes me better as a writer. I don't know how anybody ever gets better as a writer if they're not collaborating all the time.

And it seems counterintuitive, but I feel like I get better as a writer, the more I'm like, I personally get better, the more I'm with other people all the time. It doesn't mean I need to write my best songs with other people, but I think it's just so important to learn from other people's styles and their tendencies and their stories to bring up like,

oh, I actually connect with that. And I'd never even thought about it that way. Like, it happens to me all the time. I definitely will never close the chapter on that. And I just write so many songs. You know, it's like I always want to, if I'm not going to use them, I want to collaborate with people and make it, you know, tailored to them and have the songs, still have a life if it can.

So I just, I'll never close the door on that. What I love is writing songs. And so that will never go away. I'll always be happy to do that with anybody and everybody that will have me. Your team are some really nice people and good people across the board. You know, what is, explain a little bit about your relationship with your team,

which I do think is unusual. It doesn't feel really transactional. It feels like you have a really very intimate relationship with your team. Yeah, I think that the thing I am most grateful for, beyond the cuts or anything like that, is the team that I've established. And I think I had a kind of warped vision of what most people's relationships are like with their A&R, their managers, because Scott Harris was my first person that he was like my point person, you know. And he has, he has created this like family.

His team is like, you know, their family is at Girka and Scott and Emily. And they're all a family. And I, you know, that was the only thing I was seeing. So all I knew was like, I want to create, you know, I'm part of that family. but I also want to create my own, like, you know, group of people that are working together and want to hang out and are just friends and have good intentions and are good people. So Gabs was the first person that I, you know, met and was instantly,

like, I don't know what capacity yet. At the beginning, she was my publisher. She was working at APG. She was my A&R, but I was just like, I know that I need to have her be part of my, you know, family crew because she believed in my music like more than I did when I first met with her. And she's funny and she's a go-getter. And, you know, we're kind of like yin and yang in a lot of ways.

So I just, yeah, I knew that I wanted to have gaps be there. And then I just kind of like slowly started to build. And I would only, you know, want to work with people and keep people close. That made me feel comfortable and supported. And, you know, we're kind of just like similar. normal human beings, like not really caught up in the whole big scary music industry world. Yeah, I mean, in this next segment of what would Gabs ask Amy Allen? Oh, no.

No, she asks like, you know, first, why are you working with me? She's so ridiculous. She, honestly, the day that we first met, I was waiting in her office for like an hour and a half and I looked her up online so I knew what she looked like and she walked by me sitting in this for asking me this question this is why I'm giving you the answer because this is my get back at I was sitting in this chair an APG which kind of already looked like this massive scary building I had never you know been into any publishing company anything I was just sitting there and I just watched for an hour and a half I watched Gabbs walk back and forth down the hallway past me and I was

like this is like classic me I was like should I tell her should I leave? Like, do I, I'm all the way in LA like now. Do I like just go home? Like, what do I do? And finally, I think I just like said something to her when she walked by and I was like, hi, like, I'm Amy. And she was like, oh, hi. Like she had no idea who I was, because she didn't. And then she was, I think we had a meeting like a little bit ago. I'm so sorry. I feel awkward. And then we just, she was like mortified. She like totally didn't know we had a meeting that day. And we sat down and I just like loved her immediately. But she did keep me. waiting for an hour and a half in a chair in APG.

She's great. And she asks a really good final question, which is, would you consider your dreams having come true? Oh, gaps. I would say, yes. I think everything from here on out is like bonus points for me. I was so, so excited to write songs that mean something to people. And that's the only reason why I even

got into music to begin with because I wanted to, you know, back to me writing on my bed when I was a writing that song. And I was saying, like, all I wanted to do was write something that would like make my family or my friends feel something and knowing that without me or any adore you or whatever the song is have done that. Like, that's what I set out to do. And that's what I love doing. I think everything from here on out is bonus. But another, the next chapter of my dreams is definitely doing this for myself and like being able to be the one on stage that's having that moment of like resonance with people um so that's like the next chapter but first first level of dreams yes checked off very very excited one thing that you said that's really important is that the goal for

the artist thing is to connect with people while you're on stage that's a very achievable goal and it'll you'll far surpass that if you're that's your goal. As long it's that we've had conversations on this before where essentially people aren't happy unless as an artist they have a number one song or as an artist.

And the commercial success one way or the other is totally irrelevant if the goal is really to connect with your audience and to build a fan base. Because that's an arbitrary number. It doesn't matter, you know, if your fan base is

a thousand people, that would even be impressive when you think that you're one human and you're not anatomically supposed to connect with that much more than 250 people or something like that. So, you know, anything more than 250 people, which you've already done, you've already, you know, you've gone there. But here, our last segment, which I know we kind of discussed on a lot of, you know, we've mentioned a lot of these people, but I'll just give you a chance to have like a final word with them. This is our five for five. I'll name five people. You just tell me, you know, are five things. You can tell me, uh, in a few words, what,

what they mean. Scott Harris. Big brother. Best friend. Gap. Role model. Oh, I like that one. Gap's dark humor. Go get her. Sister. Halsey.

Honestly, these are so hard. She's just a badass. I'll say badass. That works. Let's go with Charlie, your boyfriend. Lovable, supportive, so fucking funny, the funniest. And then last, your parents. Oh, I'm going to cry. Supportive.

Just honestly, my rocks through all of this have seen me just ride this roller coaster, like, terrified the entire. time and have never stopped supporting me. And the complete reason why I'm doing this and why I'm pushed so hard, they've taught me to have this, these big dreams. And yeah, they're just completely my rocks. And I'm so grateful for them. Well, thank you for doing this podcast. Oh, thanks, Ross.

You know, one of the things that I like doing at the end is getting to actually tell people how I feel about them. because in real life, I don't think we do that enough. But, you know, when you start having a certain amount of success in the songwriting world, when you're in the room, other people often look at you as being the one who has the answers. You know, people look at like, oh, that person, they wrote that song. So, well, what do you think about this?

What do you think about this? Because they assume that that person knows, you know? Maybe they have more experience. Maybe they don't. but when you walk into a room it's one of the few people I know where the talent shows so early on in a session that it very quickly becomes

what do you think about it to before you had the hits I'm pretty sure we had our first session maybe before you had any you know yeah I think we did you know it's like when somebody certain people walk in a room and they come in with a knowledge of music and songwriting

that you immediately get into this, oh, that's cool, that person already seems to have like a connection. Like you might know the answers to what's going to happen next. So it's really to see the success that you've had in the last couple years is not surprising, but is well earned. And it's exciting because this is only our first. time having this interview and we will absolutely be having a talk about in a couple years when you've

you know when you're done so I appreciate your and I'm really excited for you and I'm really excited for you and I always enjoy being in the room with you and congratulations thank you and congratulations on you I want to see the show oh yeah well you know we'll do we'll do that interview another time Broadway, bright lights. All right, seriously, thank you so much. You're the best. Really enjoyed this. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg's month. and published by Big Deal Music.

A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.