And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 119: Lauv

Episode Date: March 1, 2021

For more than five years this guest has quietly and steadily become one of pop’s brightest rising stars. He has released all of his music completely independently with 5 billion streams to his name while writing for some of the biggest stars in the world, performing late-night talk shows, playing stadiums opening for Ed Sheeran, and selling out shows in 21 countries as a headliner. He first gained attention in 2015 when his single “The Other” went viral, peaking at number three on Hype Machine and hitting Spotify’s Global Top 100 before eventually being certified Gold. After concentrating on working with other artists, he hit again with 2017’s “I Like Me Better,” which reached #7 at Top 40 and #2 at Hot AC and was certified 4X multi-platinum in the US and platinum in 12 other countries. “I’m so tired…” his duet with Troye Sivan, has also been certified platinum, with over 600 million streams worldwide. His official debut album ~how i'm feeling~ featured 3 new collaborations with Alessia Cara, Sofia Reyes, and BTS. Accepting and celebrating the multiple facets of ourselves and the different personalities we carry with us, is a theme throughout the debut album, even extending to the cover art. And this artist has been open about his struggles with anxiety and depression and has taken action on the issue with his Blue Boy Foundation, which supports programs that help young people feel more comfortable reaching out for help with mental health. In 2019, he launched the “My Blue Thoughts” initiative, a community-building mechanism for fans to anonymously write down or record whatever is on their mind, as a way to engage with people around the world who may be having similar experiences. And The Writer Is… Lauv!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. and the writer is.com. For a little bit of context,

we just wanted you to know that a lot of these were recorded before quarantine. And as we know, a lot has changed in 2020. So again, please stay safe out there. and enjoy the new episodes of And The Writer Is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's guest is the epitome, the exemplification, the typification of do-it-yourself pop stars.

This bad boy king is a revolutionary in the streaming landscape, having gone multi-platinum with over a billion streams, billion with a B, still young and prolific. this artist's discography is nothing short of impressive. From the great state of California, this artist will hit you right where your feelings are. And the writer is, my friend Ari Leff, aka Love. What's up? That was quite the intro.

Yeah, welcome, man. It's good to have you. Yeah, good to have you and good to talk to you again. It's been a minute. It has. So here's like a weird story. So we obviously did El Tajano together featuring Sophia Reyes. Yes. And she lives right there.

Oh, really? In like the house right there right on the other side of this. And I've never met her, but she shoots music videos there and all these things. And I just want to be like, hey. Oh my God.

That's amazing. You have to meet her. She's so sweet. I'll put us on like a little group text or something. So funny. It's so weird. All right. So let's start from the beginning, my friend, because I think it's so incredible when somebody

as young as you are, as a chief so much, so fast, but, or seemingly so fast to us, but this has obviously been a long journey for you. So, so you're born in San Francisco. Yes. Tell me, tell me about your family life. Tell me about San Francisco. Where in San Francisco? So yeah, I was born right in downtown and in the city rather and lived in Oakland until I was four. So I don't even really feel like I'm from San Francisco because like I was barely conscious. I feel like one of my first memories was literally moving out of that house and saying goodbye to it. And then I moved to for my mom's job.

We moved to Atlanta for seven years and then Philly for seven years. And then I went to school at NYU. Yeah. And I kind of, I grew up in a household. where both of my sisters were playing violin and cello. I was taking piano lessons as a kid. That kind of a vibe.

Wait, what was your mom's job? Why is she traveling around so much? She works in vaccine research. Oh, crazy. So this is an interesting time for her, I'm sure. Very much so. She's always sending us articles and stuff like that. What does she say about everything going on?

She's very practical about it. I mean, she acknowledges how serious it is. She actually works for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Specifically, her whole career has been dedicated to like HIV-AIDS vaccine research. But I think she, you know, they're calling on more people within the foundation to, you know, help out with COVID. I don't know to what extent. But she's also, she's been like my sounding board. I'll be like, how, like, how risky is this specific behavior?

And she's like, well, realistically, you know, it's not, either it is very risky or it's not very risky. She's very practical. Does she, did she play music? Is she a musician also? Not at all. I've, like, never heard her sing or anything. Why are the three of you guys musicians? So I would say it definitely comes more so probably from my dad.

My dad, he would kind of like walk around in the morning and like sing little songs about him, like making breakfast. I have memories of him doing that. I mean, they both loved music growing up and stuff. But they also never really specifically exposed me to certain kinds of music. I know a lot of kids grew up with, like, you know, oh, this band was always playing in the household or this was always playing. And I didn't really have that. But, yeah, there was always kind of a little bit of a vibe, I guess.

What's the first band you were in? The first band that I was in. Yeah. officially it was a band called I think we were called like Red Moon it was like me and my best friend when I was like in seventh grade was it good um not really you write was it original music yeah it was original music um yeah it was just it was just me and him we were like writing this was back before i produced he was actually producing us he had garage band and I was kind of like I had no idea what I was doing I was just playing guitar and singing

really badly but you knew to write like what were the songs about like what's the first song um I think the first song it was actually a song that I wrote with my friend okay so it's very it might sound kind of confusing but I wrote the song um at like the music camp when I was living in Atlanta right before I moved with a couple of my other best friends from growing up and it was a song called, I think it was called like done, done and in the past. It was like about like a relationship that didn't work out, which I had never been in a relationship. So I don't know why that was the song. And then the second song that we wrote was called I Already Know, which was like about, I think it was about like cheating. And we were like, I don't even know. We were like probably

13 and 14. Like it was so funny. How does it go? Oh my God. It was like, and I know. Oh, oh. Yeah, no. I don't know. That was like the hug. I don't remember the rest of it. You know, it's crazy. I was just talking to somebody. You know, so much of our job is to create songs that are easy to sing. Yeah. And you, when you start off and you naturally write in a way, like, that's actually like a pretty good melody. Thank you. You know what I mean?

Thank you. That melody could work now if it's in their song, you know? Yeah. It's so weird. So then when you were 13 and you're in a band and stuff, are you already thinking, are you performing in front of people? We would do like, as like we did that band and I had like a screamo band, we would like book like little like basement shows and stuff like that.

Like we tried to do, I think it was like there was a Halloween party and we tried to play in the basement and we were so excited. but then as soon as everyone came down, the basement was so dusty that everyone had to leave. I think we were in the middle of the first song, so that was really sad. But at that time, I didn't even really realize music was going to be the thing.

I was like skateboarding a lot, so I thought I was going to be a pro skater. Really? Do you still skate? Barely, it was just sad. I love it, but I just don't do it as much, especially like right now. It's like I want to go to a skate park or something, but I passed by one in like North Hollywood

and there were so many people and no one was wearing masks. I was like, it's kind of scary. Yeah. In that culture, music's a big part of that culture. 100%. Why? That's interesting. I'm not really part of that culture, but it's so famously connected to music.

Yeah, I guess I never really questioned it. I just remember playing, like, I used to like learn about songs. Well, it was like a few things for me. One was like randomly back when like Kazah and Lime Wire and like all those things were popping as little kids. I would wake up every morning and like download random music, like literally so much random music. And then also when I was playing like the skate video games,

like Tony Hawk for skater, you would like find like the most like whatever interesting like rock and roll songs and like punk songs and stuff. And I guess I don't know. I guess I feel like music's a huge thing for especially any kid that feels like they're not maybe part of like the main. I don't want to say like popular crowd. But, like, you know what I mean?

Like, music is so important for people, I think, at least for me, when I felt a little bit outside, I felt like awkward and different. And, like, music was such a, like, safe haven. You know what I mean? It was just a place for that expression and that feeling of difference. Did, like, I feel like also skating on the East Coast is different than skating on the West Coast. You know, it just feels like different. Yeah. Definitely.

I feel like, you know, here, there's so much more, like, just kind of, like, cruising, you know, with, like, I don't even, like, like, like, long boards and like penny boards and stuff like that. For me, it was a lot of like park skating and like literal skate parks and like street skating. That was kind of like what I did back in the East Coast. So how old are you when you leave Atlanta? Do you go basically, oh, you said you went Atlanta to Philly and then you went to New York? Yeah. So I left Atlanta when I was 11. And then, yeah, then I was in Philly until. I graduated high school. How much of the music in each city changed who you are as a musician?

When you think San Francisco, Atlanta, Philly, they each also famously have a sound. For sure. How much does that change who you are as a musician or as a fan? I think a lot. I went through so many different phases like so many. But I, you know, for example, in Atlanta, I went through a big phase. I was like, I don't know, you know, I was like less than 10 years old, but listening to like Lil John and the East Side Boys and 50 Cent and like Eminem and like a lot of like whatever,

a lot of different rap music. I remember I had like a walk man back when that was a thing and I wrote on it. Like I literally wrote like Lil John like 50 cent like do not touch or something. And I was just like little and I remember like watching eight mile with my mom. Like I had to like ask her if I could listen to Eminem or if I could show him to my friends, you know, because he's like, it was like constantly saying fuck and you know and you're like a little kid. And then I went through, once I moved to Philly,

there was such this huge thing of like the pop punk and hardcore scene and like the emo, like local bands and like Jersey and Philly and like New York and stuff. And so, and then like MySpace was such a big thing. And then I got my MySpace tattoo

like a couple years ago. And it was like all that kind of DIY DIY band stuff that I became obsessed with, like so obsessed with that scene. Who were the bands that you were obsessed with? It was like stuff like, so there'd be like some social. artist they'd be like never shout never the ready set um boys like girls there's endlessly stereo skyline

uh um all time low uh um the starting line um there's so many um there's so many um a lot of people people call you laos because that's your stage name. Who calls you Ari? Who calls you Laos? And when did people start calling you Laos? I mean, whenever I do like an interview or something, people always like, which ones should I call you? I'm always like, call me Ari.

Like that's something I think about a lot. I'm like, like, I feel like I should like own it and be like, yo, like I'm loud like all the time. But I always feel so weird. I just didn't want my like official artist name to be Ari for whatever reason. I kind of wanted there to be some separation. but I mean pretty much everyone calls me Ari unless like you're just meet me like if I'm like at a studio or something people like yo like LaV like what do you want to do and I always feel so like uncomfortable I'm like I don't know I'm like this is weird how old when you started with Laos as in I was explain what Laos means yeah so I started releasing music as Laos in 2015 so I was like halfway-ish through college I basically was trying to up a until then, like basically my whole thing is I wanted to be an artist, you know, growing up and, like,

was playing in bands and had like a solo artist project and would do like YouTube covers and like all this stuff. And then I kind of gave up because I felt like it wasn't working out. You know, I was watching all these other like kids like blow up on MySpace and stuff. And it was kind of like, I always felt like it wasn't really happening. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be, I learned about like songwriting and production. And I was like, oh, that's a real thing. Like people make songs with and for artists behind the scenes. I was like, that's so crazy to me.

And I started, like, studying, like, Katie Perry songs and stuff like that and, like, trying to, like, remake the sounds of that. And I was like, when I was going to go to NYU at first, I was like, okay, I'm going to just, like, make remixes, like, try to meet other songwriters and producers and, like, make songs and try to pitch them and blah, blah, blah, cold email people. And I didn't think about being an artist. and then I made my first song as Lauv. It was a song called The Other in like 20,

I guess it might have been 2014 and released it in 2015. And I was like, okay, this doesn't feel like a song I want to pitch. It was like really actually about my life. So I wrote it with my friend Michael Matossack and I was like, hey man, like would you mind if I like made an artist project? Like, you know, just like a little side thing and put it out. And I was like trying to find a name. And then I was kind of like, you know, spending forever thinking about it.

And I kind of just dawned on me that I wanted to use a word from Latvia because my mom said of the family is from Latvia. And like every summer as a kid, we'd go there. And I just had a lot of like kind of fun memories of being there as a kid. And I'm a Leo and Ari means lion. So I was like, okay, I can Google translate. Like what's like the Latvian word for lion? And yeah, and it's lava with the A, but I got rid of the A. That's interesting.

Yeah. What did your family, coming from a family where. you know, science is your mother's profession. What did they feel about you going to school to do music? That's the thing is they actually were always really supportive, which I have to be super thankful about. Like, they were always like, like, my dad would sometimes, like, drive us to our shows when we had bands and would be in the back, like, vibing,

even though my dad is also a scientist. He's a science teacher. I think that they, yeah, they were always supportive of, like, us, doing what we love to do, but they were also like practical, like where I would be like, um, like, you know, even when I signed my publishing deal, it was like, you know, if this doesn't work out, you know, like, it was kind of conversations of like, okay, like, well, maybe I would just be like an audio engineer or something that was more like you would be paid like, whatever, hourly or salary, but still in music. Um, but I was lucky that they were, they were never like,

you shouldn't do this. They were never like, don't go to school for music or anything like that. So I was definitely lucky about that. In school, some, somebody who's, making the choice to become an artist while they're in school. I mean, it's got to be, it's got to be like kind of a unique thing to start pitching yourself as an artist, right? I mean, how does that work with your co-students? Like, what's that like at NYU? And is it the Clive Davis School?

I was actually in Steinhart for music technology. which is so funny because there's like that like kind of like unspoken sort of spoken like rivalry it's like music tech versus clive dailets which is so funny um i gotta be honest clive had like way nicer studios um but yeah yeah i'm like uh um no um i definitely you know i felt really nervous like i felt like very like awkward and shy about it and like you know didn't really want to put my face out there and and didn't really understand that side of it. It was like very, I feel like low-key, but, you know, I started to play shows in New York, and I played, like, one of my first, like, real, like, headline shows at, like, Webster Hall Studio and, like, got a bunch of my friends

and my girlfriend at the time, like, she was super supportive and got a bunch of her friends out at the show. But, yeah, it was cool, because, like, basically I put out the first song and I was really expecting to be like such a like little side project thing and like back when like hype machine was like a huge thing and like all the blogs it just started like blowing up like literally first second day and like labels and publishers

started reaching out and like to me and like my manager in college and it was just like really crazy for me because it was like literally everything that I like dreamed of for like when I was back in middle school and high school I was like I just wanted the artist thing to work out and like it was sort of like when I stopped trying so hard and I just made a song that felt real, it started to click. And yeah, it was really cool. It was really crazy to me. You know, stuff started happening pretty quickly. What do you mean trying to do you hard? I just felt like as a kid, I was trying so hard to like promote myself. I was like making my space banners and like friend requesting people with like a friend bot and messaging and commenting and like begging people to buy tickets to my shows

from my school and like just try so hard and like brainstorm all day instead of just like making, maybe making better songs, I was so precious about the songs, which I think is a huge thing. Everyone assumes that the job of a hustler who's starting is to get people to come to your show. And that's really not the job.

They'll come to your show if the songs are right. Exactly. It's like I didn't, I think I had too much pride. I just wasn't real enough with myself to like really be like, okay, these songs are cool, but they're not like great you know what I mean and I kind of like I kind of like blame myself I was like oh I'm not like hot enough or like oh I just got really self-conscious it was very self-destructive I was like

oh I'm not working hard enough or like blah blah blah so I was really discouraged and I think when I like wrote this song that was like for like the first time it wasn't what I thought somebody wanted to hear or like you know trying to pitch a song it was just like about my life I saw that people kind of gravitated towards it and that kind of shifted my whole perspective releasing music as an artist is so vulnerable and another thing I think people don't recognize how vulnerable it is but at that time once you see the success

of putting out a song of yours do you find that to be addicting or do you still get really nervous? I actually, I love the vulnerability. It sounds maybe kind of weird, but I'm the type of person that like one of my favorite experiences in life other than making music, is meeting somebody new and, like, unfolding each other's lives

in conversation, like, literally everything, like relationships, like, childhood, parental relationships, like, you know, mentally how we're doing, emotionally how we're doing. Like, I'm, like, such that person that I love that sort of dynamic of, like, just putting that into the world. I don't know. That's kind of addicting to me, you know? I love that. It, like, lights me up.

And it's definitely, it's cool when people react to it. I'm not going to lie. Like, you know, when people react to it and connect to it. It's, I don't know. I guess it's like, okay, like, yeah, it's like you're certainly not the only person experiencing it in that way. In this next segment, we'll call what would Jamie Zellick ask, Ari. She asks, looking back now, what advice would you give your younger self? That is so good.

me. I think honestly it would have been, it would have been two things. One, it would have been just write more songs. Like literally, don't be so attached to the songs. Write more, write more, write more, write more. And two, I think, like, just stop thinking and stop being so, like, calculated about it and think about what people want to hear and just write from your heart. I think those two things. Well, but how do you do that? I mean, there's sort of like, or is such a simple question, I don't know the answer. How do you write from your heart? What does that mean?

For me, for me, that means, like, lately, for example, I've been freestyling a lot more. Like, I'll hear chords. And instead of, like, really, like, I feel like I used to be like, here's, like, a melody that sounds really good. Let me try to find some words and jam it in. You know, now it's way more like, I hear the chords. I get on the mic and I just spit phrases out and I just, you know, like get a little bit of, like, here's what sounds like a verse. And then for me, it feels way more just like, just straight up from, like,

somewhere that's not as like kind of thought, I guess. That's a big thing for me because I used to sit there in my room with my friends in high school and be like, what should this song be about? What do I want to say? And now it's more just like, what do I feel that I don't even know that I'm thinking about? Interesting. So it's sort of like capturing the freestyle. Yeah, it's just like capturing.

Like I never know. Like I've always been sort of like, sometimes I'm like jealous of like my friends who are like, I have this title or I have this concept or I have like this set of lyrics. I'm very much just like in the moment. I'll hear a vibe or I'll start like, you know, I'll start a track and I'll have no idea what it's going to be about. But then like as soon as I kind of feel like some words of mine capture the essence of what it feels like all of a sudden,

it's almost like I have the first piece of like paint on the canvas and I can sort of start to imagine like where should I flesh it out, you know? Going back a second when, you know, you play. at Webster Hall and you just released the song and Hype Beast comes out like you know hears it

first of all how did they hear it how does it well it was like hype machine so it wasn't hype beast yeah it was just like the blog aggregator okay right how did they how did how are people

even discovering it um I think the way it was working is just like all these kind of like different like college blog and music blogs were posting it, and then it would chart on hype machine because it would see how many blogs were posting it. And I don't even know what the algorithms were. It was like some type of like blog chart. And then like, you know, obviously the hierarchy got on the chart, like the same

thing now. It's like if you're breaking to like the global top 50 on Spotify, now there's like a whole new threshold or a whole new audience that's hearing that because they just listen to that. How were people, it's still like, it's so confusing because so many people, you know, major label or otherwise release music all the time and blogs don't just all of a sudden start picking up somebody who has minimal amount of followers and I had nothing dude I literally had nothing I don't know I think it was you know what it was um it was a friend of mine from college um I think I think this is really kind of how I started his name was Mike Schrader and he had a blog and he agreed he was like he was going to support from the very beginning he posted it and I think from there probably

other bloggers followed him and found the song and then also SoundCloud you know at that time like SoundCloud was like very much the you know the main place for stuff to be blowing up and it literally unfolded in front of my eyes like I couldn't I couldn't believe it I was studying abroad at Prague at the time actually and I remember like waking up the next day and being like there's so many people talking about the song now like what is going on what was it like living in Prague so sick dude That was so sick. I got to be like real. Like I, that was my semester where I just, I had set up my college experience perfectly where I did most of my credits every single other semester.

So I had like only like 12 credits that semester. So I was just like traveling with my friends like every weekend all around Europe. Beer is cheaper than water. So we were having a good time. Out of pills. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of pills. It was honestly, it was so fun.

It was so fun. Okay. So you're getting pressure. then from publishers, labels, all these people, I'm sure right off the back, because there's just a slew of A&R people who just wait by blogs to see, you know, like, who's trending on TikTok or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's it like to start getting those calls? And then why even finish school? Did you? Yeah. I did finish school. It was crazy. I really didn't know how to take it, you know? It was just sort of like, I think we kind of decided I was

going to put the label thing on hold because like honestly at that stage, all the label deals were just pretty trash. You know what I mean? They just weren't. If you have like one song blowing up on SoundCloud and like hype machine, like, yeah, it wasn't really like something serious. But I was like kind of like my goal, I don't know why this was sort of the goal, but I was like, I want to send a publishing deal. So it was like I was starting to be like flown out to L.A., you know? by this publisher and this publisher to kind of do like writing trips. And I was about to be a senior at NYU. And I think I signed right before that year with prescription.

The idea of owning your master's is really popular, but it's so, so rarely done well. And I said in the intro, you know, I was talking about, you know, how you sort of epitomized to do it yourself, music, you know, musician, so many people want to be part of building their record,

their own record label, which essentially you guys did. Yeah. You know, I feel like if this is like the 90s, people talked about Dave Matthews that way, where it was like, oh, all you have to do is tour.

Like, he didn't, you know, he toured and toured and toured, and that's he built a fan base. You're like, no, he's the only one who succeeded at it. And I feel like this is a similar place where there's, you know, maybe there's like five to ten artists after you that have started to do really well because of it. But it feels like in the streaming world, you're the first of the really successful pop artists who built it off of, you know, A-Wall and some of these distributors that are smaller than majors.

How, I mean, I'm sure you've had majors along the way that have threatened you with a really nice offer. to come their way, why take the stress of having your team be, you know, the record label. And why and how did it work? Go as deep as you want. Because this truly, everyone now uses you as an example behind your back of like, oh no, I want to do it the way Lov did.

And I'm like, no, you don't understand. He did it the way he did. You can't do it the way he did. because by the time you do it, he's already moved on and there are other people who are doing it that way. But you like set the ground rules, I feel like. Which is so crazy to me because I feel like it was kind of like for me, I don't want to say by accident,

but I didn't really even imagine it to be that way. I was just like, I'll be really real. Like for me, I think I felt like alienated a bit from my earlier major label experiences where I felt like I would walk into buildings, feeling so nervous and playing music for A&Rs and always getting this sort of same, like, I don't know if you really have, like, a thing, let's stay in touch.

Like, the music's pretty cool. I don't know. And I honestly, it just hurt. It just hurt. And then it was like as soon, that same thing happened with the same song that I released in 2015, the other, my very first song, it was now two years later. And on Spotify, somebody added it to some playlist, and it started to react. And then I got added to another playlist and another playlist.

And then one day I was driving and Jamie texted me and was like, it's on today's top hits. And I was like, this is fucking insane. This song is two years old. And it's now on today's top hits. And suddenly the label conversations start again. And I had just written, I like me better. And I was holding on to that. And then like I was starting to, you know, like my attorney at the time, who's like my

soulmate and best friend was like kind of helping me navigate a lot of it. You can name drop you. Jonathan Kobe. He's my brother, another father, spiritual. He's like everything. We're super close.

He was helping me navigate it. And at that time, I was looking for, you know, management again. And I started working with my current managers, Steve Berski and Max Grudinger. And,

and, and, yeah, I, what was I going to say? You're talking about how you were holding on to it like me better because you were... Yeah, and then all of a sudden, like, all these labels were like freaking out. And I was honestly so scared. Like, I was scared because I still like I had no idea what I was doing.

Like, I just feel like this stuff was just happening around me. You know, my song on Today's Top Hits. I wrote this song one day in my bedroom in L.A. That apparently now everyone was like, this is going to be a crazy hit. And I just was like, I don't know what's going on. And I was so nervous and like walking into different buildings and like, you know, making the label meetings and like considering it. But I don't know.

I think I still felt a bit like, like maybe like alienated and a little bitter about the way the process had been before that I was like, I was talking to my managers and be like, we can do this, you know, do this ourselves. And honestly, credit to them for taking out of brunt of the work, you know, because it wasn't really me who had the stress. It was them who had to, you know,

take on additional stress of also kind of running the label side of it alongside AWOL, you know? So huge shout out to them for doing that and for putting up with so much extra work. That's, you know, that's huge. But yeah, it kind of just all started to happen. And I really, I don't know. It wasn't like this like brand plan of like, I know this is going to change everything. You know, it just kind of like is happening.

I mean, it's so nuts, man. It's like you can go a whole career and people don't have, people don't have hits all the time and then to have a hit without the machine behind you really is just mind-boggling. Why do you think your music connects to people differently than most? I don't know. I just, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just like to think the songs that blow up are just, yeah, just good slash great songs.

I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure. You've written with so many different artists. You have a lot of, you know, I think people don't realize how many songs you've written for and with other artists. And what is the difference in the way you treat writing songs, you know, for, I don't know, Louis a child or Celine Dion or Backstreet Boys or Demi or Charlie or all these people that you've written with before? What do you do differently when you write for other people versus when you write for yourself?

For me, when it's a me song, I'm like relentless about it being like exactly the way it feels most personal to me. Like I'm like relentless. Like that's the difference in a song I keep and a song that like even if I love that can be for another artist is like I'm just so anal about it being like I don't know. Like and honestly maybe to my own detriment. Like I've been thinking about this lately. Like, you know, one of my best friends and somebody I came up with is Michael Pollock. I don't know if he's been on the show. Has he been on the show?

He hasn't. But in the spirit of that, in this next segment where what would Michael Pollock ask Love? He asked you, what's your favorite song that we wrote together and why? That's a good one. I'm going to say, I'm going to say I'm so tired, I think. I think I'm so tired. Just because the way... Go ahead.

What? No. Just the way it happens. Like it was like we spent all day like trying to make songs. I was renting a house above Chateau Marmont for a summer. Crazy house. It was sort of like an art museum, to be honest. There was art everywhere.

It was like almost so much art you couldn't walk. And we just all day like hours and hours and hours trying to write songs. Nothing was clicking. And then he was just sitting at the piano and I was sitting at my little MIDI keyboard. And like the chorus of I'm so tired just started. happening. It was literally just like in like a minute all of a sudden we had this chorus. Like it just I don't know how to explain it. It just like felt it just started happening. And I'll just that moment is so like crystal clear and like I can feel the emotion of it and

being like this feels so good. And then you know playing it for Troy after me and Troy were in the studio another day and we made a song with Leland that just wasn't great. And I played I'm so tired and try like freaked out and it's just like the way that song came together was just so fun you know incredible but yeah you were saying before i interrupted with michael's question that and i think this is important what i like about you know i like me better and stuff is that you wrote it with the people you came up with yeah like you're not um you still are you rarely you know you still stay really tight with a lot of the people that you came up with now.

You only add in a few people here or there. I'm sure the same way that you were getting pressured from labels, you must be getting pressure from all over the place. People being like, why don't you write with this huge producer and this huge, whoever? Why don't you feel the urge

to go and play the game? Yeah, that's a good question. I think I do. I just think sometimes I get really like comfortable in like my little situation. And I just have so much fun working with the people that I love working with. You know, like shout out like Dallas Kay and Johnny Simpson and Andrew Rosario, Michael Matasic, Michael Pollock. I just, I don't know. It just feels so comfortable. But I think more recently also, especially on like the newer music I'm working on, I've been less hands on with needing to be the main producer. Like I need to sit and produce a song as I'm writing it.

and letting other producers, you know, help me or, you know, working with other people. Like, you know, it's like I worked with like day trip recently and that was unbelievable. And I'm trying to work with all sorts of different people. Yeah, I just think maybe I get a little bit like comfortable in my zone. Is it comfortable? I mean, look, Elton John had, you know, Bernie Toppin, his whole career and that was his collaborator. I mean, some people don't necessarily need to go and search for the next, the next. the next if they grow with their co-writers, you know?

Yeah, yeah. It is plausible that you don't need to branch out too much. Although I said you continue to write more together. But that's just... I would love that. I would fucking love that. I would love that. No, but for real, and you know, you release, the other does really well,

but I like me better does something that there's, you know, it's like a once in a career kind of like success. Hopefully lots of them. But that song does something up, you know, five notches from, you know, crazy. What was about that? Crazy. Crazy, crazy, crazy.

That song, like, it's still, like I can never come up with like how the hell. I mean, literally like this first, when we released it, I remember like refreshing YouTube. in like in like an hour. I was going up hundreds of thousands. And I was, you know,

you know, remember, like I didn't have a big fan base really at that point. I was getting like hundreds of thousands of views on like the visualizer like every hour. And it was just going and going and going and blowing up and then streaming, you know, like a million times a day. And then up like, you know, 1.5, almost two million times a day on Spotify. And I'm just like, this is insane. And like I play like my first like big L.A. show. And it was like maybe like the day after it came out and the entire audience knew every word. and I was just like, it was just insane.

Like, it was just this whole other thing that was just going crazy. And, like, all of a sudden there's, like, you know, radio conversations. And I'm, like, still have, like, no idea what's going on. And I'm, like, going to radio. I'm driving around the country and, like, in just, like, a little car with, like, different guys from Intune, like, going into radio stations and, like, playing them the song. And, like, I don't know. It was such a trip. And then I just started touring like crazy.

And they just kept growing and growing and growing. and growing and growing and growing and growing and it was such a long thing, you know, where it's like radio didn't really start going for real on it until like I feel like actually like a year after it came out. You know, it was such a long, slow burn for that song. It was crazy. I mean, it's shocking. And it's shocking in all the positive ways because, again,

so many things have to happen to make something a hit. But the pictures of the shows that you started to play, I mean, you were playing with literally the biggest artist in the world on tour. What's it like to be on tour with? I mean, you toured with Ed Shearne, didn't you? Yeah, yeah. Like, what is it like to go from a dorm room in NYU to playing in front of literally many tens of thousands of people nightly?

I mean, how do you? Crazy. so crazy because like I feel like a little bit before I got the call about doing tour that and I had a call of my mom where I was like you know in the car talking about you know if I you know I sign my publishing deal and I you know had a little bit of money in the bank but nothing crazy and I was like you know if this doesn't work out you know who knows what I'm going to do and then you know flash forward like maybe a couple of months and I got a call for my manager I was like taking a run It was like early in the morning.

And he was like, I was like, let me call you back. And he's like, wait, wait, wait. How would you feel about going on tour with Ed Shear and arenas in Asia? And I was just like flipping, jumping around, freaking out, going crazy, like, so insane. And like calling my parents and being able to give them that news was like the most satisfying thing, you know? Because you're just like finally like you guys have been supporting me and like, you know, rooting for me for so many years. And it's like, you know who Ed Shearing is. Like mom and dad, you like you fucking know who Ed Shearing is, you know?

and it's like that's undeniable. So that was really cool. And then like meeting him for the first time and he's just so down to earth. It's so nice and so talented. And just kind of like being able to kind of study the way he is on stage and like getting to play arenas and then going back out on tour with him again in stadiums in the US and like that being insane and the shows were even bigger. It's just I don't know.

It's nuts. Like there's just no. It's just nuts. Like you know, I looked back in high school when I was laying on the couch with this girl that I had a crush on watching Ed Shearing music videos. And now I'm like, here I am, like, chilling with him and playing a show in a stadium for like almost 100,000 people. It's just like you can't really process it.

Like it's just not, there's no equation that makes sense. It just doesn't make sense. Your lyric writing is really intimate. And that's what makes us feel so connected to you. How does touring in front of 100,000 people change the way you write? Yeah. I think the more I tour, the more you see which songs really react. And it's interesting.

Like I feel like for like the soft, I think I went through a big time on my project. I met you in I was 18. There was a lot of like super soft and emotional stuff. And I realized with that stuff, it's got to be a super engaging, super engaging lyric, especially in a stadium for people to like for it to cut through, you know. And other than that, I think that was the important thing with Ed Shearan is because like, you know, his, he could be just him and the acoustic guitar,

super quiet, singing the most intimate song, but every single person almost in the stadium is like, is like silent. And it's like, that's a crazy phenomenon, you know? It's like the power of just something that feels real. I don't know. It's just like you're feeling like you're hearing a story

in fold right in front of you. And I, yeah, I don't know. Do any of your songs, do any of your songs react in a, in a, stadium that didn't necessarily, where you didn't think they would really react, where maybe they're like older or something, but all of a sudden everyone gets really excited,

you're like, that's the song? Or is it pretty much, or is there like a correlation between how many songs or how many streams the song has to their reaction the crowd has? You know, one that was really cool for me that I always, yeah, that I always think about is my song Breathe. That one is like the slowest one I would play in the stadium, you know, it's like the one where I get everyone to take their cell phones and go side to side. And as an opening artist, just being real, you know, when like most, more than a majority of the people have no idea who I am, even if they know my song or my songs, they're not going to know who I am.

When you're doing that and you look out and actually a majority of people are listening and have their cell phones out for like a piano ballad, you know, as you're an opener, it was really cool. I think that was super surprising to me. Do you have expectations for when you release? because you just, you know, you released a lot of music since, you know, you're very prolific. I know that, you know, quarantine's been really interesting for you. And by the time you actually released your last album, you know, you were already working on your next EP,

which then you released a new EP and you're like, on your shit. You're just constantly releasing music. Do you have expectations for the songs that you release? Or is it right now, is it more just about getting the songs out? I think I went through a bit of a phase where I was, like, obsessed with just making as much music as possible and, like, wanted to put it out, which was kind of like what was going on with this EP that I just put out. I was just like, these songs feel like right now I need to put them out.

I was like very, I don't know. I just was very gung-ho about it. But I think I've kind of returned to this mentality of I've been writing a lot of songs and kind of being a little bit more poised about collecting, you know, a real project and kind of curating a real project for whatever my next thing is going to be and taking my time with it and being like

okay which of these songs stand the test of time not just which of them feel like I need to put it out right now but which of them am I going back to month after month, you know, week after week month after month and saying I can't stop listening to this, you know? And that's what I'm trying to do now for this next

project is like write songs that feel different for me. I'll always want to do something that feels different and that I really truly like keep coming back to. One of the questions that other questions Jamie asked was, you know, who's a dream artist you'd want to collaborate with? And for this next project, are you trying to collaborate with people? You know, the funny thing is with collabs. I feel like I never really plan on it. It just kind of happens. Like it literally just, I don't know, I'll start talking to somebody as a friend.

and then we're like, hey, let's make something and then either it turns out great or it doesn't. But I feel like the couple of dreams are Drake and Coldplay, which are very different from each other. Very, very different from each other. I mean, imagine the song that's love Drake and Coldplay. That would be crazy.

Yeah, I got to get my shit way up. Like, I got to get the shit. We're really popping, but that's like, that's a big one. So you said one word that I think, a lot of people don't associate with music artists but they do with painting artists but it's probably the one word that really distinguishes artists that last versus ones that don't is you said curate the songs are you a good curator for your own music i don't know i think i'm learning man like i think i'm learning you know like i'm a huge overthinker i'd like to think

on this project I'm doing a good job, you know, this next one. Because I think for me, it's just about figuring out like what's, what's important for the project. And I think, you know, I think what's like becoming really important for me on this one is, and you know, it was the same thing on my last, it was the same thing on my last album too, was like trying to do, trying to commit to experimenting in different vibes and not be afraid of that, but to do them to the best version of that vibe, if that makes sense. I don't know if I'm explaining it totally properly. But I think for me, instead of, okay, maybe I should say it,

instead of the thread being like, oh, the whole album sounds the same, it's more so, like, I try to figure out what is the thread between, like, maybe the personality or, like, the visual narrative, or, like, what sort of like the story or the undertone I want to, hotel is and can that, can you see that? Can you feel that? Even in an unspoken way, can you feel that throughout the songs? I think that's sort of my goal now is like, because I was always told, you know, growing up when I was starting, like, oh, like you have to have like a very, you know, one sound, like one sound, but I was like bored. Like I love an artist. You go through an album and you hear

like so many different like genres, honestly. And it's just like, but it still just sounds like them because they say things the way they say them. They're going through a certain time in their life. You know what I mean? Like that's kind of the thing. Of course. Smart. Explain what the Blue Boy Foundation is. Yeah. So I started a foundation in 2019. Right around the time I released my song, Sad Forever, because I wanted to, basically,

I just had gotten out of like a huge hole. Like I, beginning in 2019, I didn't realize exactly what it was in the time, but I was like super depressed and experiencing really bad OCD and I you know started dealing with it in therapy and and through psychiatry and when I got like an official diagnosis and I was just like in this huge like just awful hole like really really bad hole where I was just like all of January I mean a lot of 2018 I was kind of going down hill where like my obsessive anxiety was going up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and I was becoming less in touch with like feeling anything in the moment and just feeling depressed. And January 2019, I'm like, like, just like journaling, trying to like, like recount events in

my life and whatever, just like being super obsessive and like calling my parents and calling my sisters and just in this horrible place. And anyways, I was diagnosed with OCD and depression, started dealing with it, started to get out of this hole, as I would describe it, and kind of come a little bit more back to reality. And I was like, okay, like I want to do something about this. One, I want to tell my story through the song. Two, I want to tell the story more in depth through the video. Three, I want this to be for something.

So I was like excited to take the proceeds. And I was like, I want to be able to create a way for this money to be distributed to different organizations that are doing work and reducing stigma. of mental health and helping people get care. And so I created the foundation. And since then, it's been something I've just been growing a lot more and more trying to just find ways to get involved, hosting online panels.

And hopefully again, we did one in person, one, I want to do more. And yeah, it's just becomes something that's been, I guess, just really important to me. What can fans and what can collaborators do to help when they have, you know, when they have a collaborator who's struggling with, you know, depression or OCD or, you know, if somebody's a fan of yours and they know that you're going through a hard time, what's in, what's a way that that people can communicate, um, support? Yeah. Um, I honestly think the biggest thing as somebody who's witnessing, that is just listening

and being non-judgmental, be soft for them, you know, like be open-hearted, hear them out. And also, don't put so much pressure on yourself to say the right thing, you know, because we're not perfect. And I think it's, you know, it can be, it can maybe in the moment you could argue that you could be harmful, you're worried to say the wrong thing. But I think oftentimes humans are paralyzed by this fear of saying the wrong thing. So they say nothing, you know, and then it's, then you create this environment that maybe feels cold. but just trying to, you know, just be there, listen and help people understand that there's resources available, you know, in therapy and psychiatry. And, you know, for me, I feel like when my friends are struggling, I do try to bring a lot

of like meditation into it. And yeah, but I think the biggest thing is listening and trying not to put so much pressure on yourself to know all the answers. But just to, because you can feel when somebody's being loving towards you, like even and then somebody says the wrong things to me, if I can feel they're coming from their heart, that's an act of love and that's healing in and of itself. Totally.

You've built a career out of writing, you know, when people think of, you know, these are often sad songs, you know, and emotional songs. Does that feel cathartic for you to be able to write it down? Is it the writing it down that makes you feel better? Is it the releasing the music?

that makes you feel better? I think it's both. I think it's more so creating the song. You know, I take my favorite experience is like going into a room and not knowing what it's going to happen. And then like at the end,

being like, this is a song that represents something that I've been feeling a lot recently, but I haven't really known how to articulate. That's like one of my favorite feelings ever. That's so satisfying. Then obviously the releasing is a nice part of it as well. But honestly,

I think a lot of the music I've been making during quarantine has been not all less emotional, but I think I'm finally making, I'm hitting a part of my career where I'm making fun music, which feels so good. It feels so good to not always be like, all my music is just complaining.

Yeah, and that's the thing. You know, there is a Ian and Yang part of all of it that writing about, if part of your job is to entertain your audience, you know, there's a way to discuss these things in even an up-tempo way. Yeah. Like, yeah, 100%.

It doesn't have to not be honest. Yeah. Just because it's... I love stuff like that. Like the other night, I was writing a song that felt very much like, I didn't finish it, but it was very much like I had this feeling of like it reminded me of like my high school prom. And the song felt really fun. But it was sort of like the lyric was becoming this tragic thing of like the

that I really wanted to be with, you know, is with somebody else, you know, like, or they got back together with their ex and, like, you have a crush on them and you're just, like, speaking to somebody else, like, will you hold me because, you know, my, my lover is found somebody else? And the song feels so fun and, like, nostalgic, but the lyric is like, ouch, you know? Yeah. I love that kind of stuff. Yeah.

All right, so this next segment, we're going to go to five for five. I'm going to name five things. There'll probably be a few more. And you'll just tell me it's sort of what comes off the top of your head. So let's go, you know, some people that you've mentioned throughout the, you know, this podcast. Let's start with Jonathan Kobe because you mentioned him as being like the first guy, really. So let's go with him. Just absolute boss, such a good people person, always there to listen.

Hopefully I'm doing this right. And he's been the number one person to empower me. He's always like, you're the boss. I've always been very afraid to take the, to like steer the ship, and he's always been the one who's always, he's been there for me and really empowered me. Let's go with your managers. Unbelievably intelligent, unbelievably strategic. I've been there for me in my darkest times.

And I feel like my relationship with them is way beyond just business. you know, it's way beyond just business, which I'm super grateful for, because I know it's not always like that. Let's go with J. Cash and Jamie. Family, just family. Like, you know, Jamie is like, some of the first people I knew in L.A. J. Cash is just genius. Like, one-of-a-kind genius, hands down.

He knows how to just fuck shit up and have fun. And, yeah, I love both of them so much. Okay. This is sort of a two-part, but let's go with Ed Shearren. I don't know how the man writes so many songs in one day. How does he do it? I don't know. I literally don't know.

We sat down one day and we wrote, I think, three songs in a few hours. And he told me about how he was writing. I forget with who. Somebody else. Maybe it was like Sean Mendez or somebody else. And he was like, yeah, we wrote like seven songs in that day. And I just don't know. He's a machine.

He's a machine. And like the most heartfelt machine ever. I don't know. And the songs are all pretty good. Yeah. The worst song is still pretty good. Yeah, it is insane. Yeah, just when we all think we're prolific, there's always an Ed tune. I know, it's crazy.

BTS. BTS. I mean, obviously, like the biggest thing in the world. I wish I got a chance to spend more time with them. I think I'll say that. Crazy that we made music together. I think that was the most unexpected collab of my career so far. Amazing. And then finally, your parents. Oh, that's so much. So much love.

I always want to be closer to them. I always want to be closer to their hearts. And I miss them. I'm incredibly thankful that they've been so supportive throughout my career and my life. I love them a lot. Well, thank you for doing. and the writer is fun.

Dude, thank you for having me. This has been like a thing. This has been like a dream for a long time to actually do this. It's crazy. Yeah, you know, I always end by getting my chance to say

the thing that I wish I could say to them. You know, it's like it's weird. In real life, you don't say all those things that you were talking about earlier where it's hard sometimes to just tell people it's on your heart, you know?

Because it's awkward when you're just saying hi to somebody or eating lunch. like you don't leave by telling them how you feel about them, you know? Yeah. But I love that you mentioned that how, you know, sometimes it's hard to just say things. Yeah, it is. And your vulnerability in your songwriting is what makes you profoundly unique.

And there are so many people who have emulated that, but there are very few people who've achieved what you've done. And the fact is that there's almost a genre that follows in your footsteps. And I think, I'm sure there are times where as you're wrapped up trying to finish a song at home, there are people who are who still think of you and talk about you as if you're the example of what success is. And I hope you recognize how successful you've become. And, you know, this is our first interview. you know, we'll be doing these often to make sure we keep updated on all the things. But, you know, the success of your songs aren't because there's a big machine behind it, but it's

because of your talent and it's because of your personality. And you've earned all of it. And I'm proud to be a collaborator and commitment. I'm like literally tearing out. Dude, thank you so much. That really hits me in the heart. I really appreciate that. No one's ever really said that to me in that way. I feel like this is a honestly like a bit of a, what is the word, revelation moment for me that I kind of need right now. So I really, I appreciate you and I have a lot of love for you. And we have to make more songs and I love to do this anytime. So I appreciate you, man. All right, man. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed,

Be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Gole.