And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 12: Mikkel Eriksen of Stargate

Episode Date: April 17, 2017

One half of the world renowned production and songwriting duo, Stargate, this producer-songwriter is no stranger to the Billboard Hot 100. Originally from Trondheim, Norway, and now based in the States, he and his partner have been penning and producing hits with some of music's biggest names for over two decades. Garnering production and writing credits on massive #1 singles such as Ne-Yo's "So Sick", Beyonce's "Irreplaceable", and Katy Perry's "Firework", the versatility and incredible talent of this creative easily puts them into a class of their own. And the writer is...Mikkel Eriksen! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write songs.

the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who is nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is, or go to our website www.com. Oh, and if you enjoy this podcast, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. Okay, this week's guest on And The Writer is, is one half of Stargate. Stargate is part of the super producer class of producers. They've been part of developing careers with Neo and Rihanna.

They did firework for Katie Perry. They did Beyonce records, Coldplay Records, Wiz Khalifa Records. That's how diverse they are. And not only that, they just released their first single as an artist called Waterfall, featuring Sia and Pink. Their debut single is featuring Sia and Pink. They're that big. So I'm excited for you to hear this.

I know that they've been part of a number of people's careers, but I also owe them a lot because my first two number one songs were with them. Now, we talk about a number of people in this interview that you should know about. We talk about Esther, who's Esther Dean. We talk about Tai Tai, the founder of Rock Nation. We talk about Benny, who's Benny Blanc, who you would know because he is our first guest on And The Writer Is. We talk about Amar, who's Amar Malik, Dano, who's Robopop.

We talk about Sandy V. We talk about Kashmir Kat, who also is having an amazing moment as an artist. So it's an exciting interview with somebody who's a true entrepreneur in the music business. And outside of that. In fact, he's a founder of Johnny Love, clothing brand, and Spinnable. So, without further ado, here is, and the writer is. Featuring Mikhail Erickson from Stargate. Welcome to And The Writer is.

I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's Man of the Hour has written and produced more than a dozen number one songs, and yet that number doesn't include the dozen number one songs in the UK. And that number doesn't include an additional 40 top 10 songs. He broke Neo's career, has had six number one songs with three, a number one song with Beyonce and he did firework for Katie Perry most importantly he co-wrote my first country number one compass and my first pop number one same old love from Norway this half of Stargate plays piano with more soul than anyone I've ever met and the

writer is my favorite Scandinavian entrepreneur mckell ericsson thank you all right how are you Ross? I'm good. I like that it's fun because I always think of you as this vocal producer with me because you managed to get you like pull that kind of performance out of me. So I like when you say that that we can go and edit things like the intro, which maybe or maybe we did, maybe we didn't. Who knows? You won't know because you'll hear only one version of it. Great. You're easy to produce. Oh, thank you. Thank you. So, um, I don't know if you remember this, but I always like starting with where we first met. Yeah.

And there's no way you know this. But in September of 2012, I came in for a session where I was in Studio B here at Wesley. And I walked in and there was a thumb drive of tracks. And it was all listed like Esther 42, Esther 61, Esther 73. It was like a folder of Esther tracks. Yeah, yeah. And I was so intimidated because here, and then you guys walk in and hear these, you know, six foot three and four Scandinavian white guys who are bald and I'm this short Jewish guy. You know, and I'm like, okay, I don't know what I'm supposed to do here, but I'm going to go in the booth and record. And I think that it was, it was obviously bad enough that I'm pretty sure that it never left an impression.

So I'm glad that I think it had it been terrible you guys would have noticed it and had it been really good you would have noticed it but I think I landed sort of in the middle Exactly we've been there many many times And I've probably written about

A thousand terrible songs And maybe another thousand decent ones And hopefully Maybe a hundred good ones Do you get Do you get nervous? at all? Do you get intimidated when you're working with Coldplay, when you're working with Lionel

Richie, I don't know, I mean you meet with everybody. Is there anyone at this point that makes you nervous? No, not professionally. I'm not nervous. I'm pretty confident that I can do a good job at least if there's some sort of chemistry.

It has to be a natural fit. When did you start working with idols? I mean, did you have Norwegian idols when you were younger that all of a sudden wow i'm working with i don't know a norwegian idol so i mean no not that many i was always more drawn to american and international music sure there's been a couple there's a iconic big singer called the sisal chichiebe just a classical singer amazing voice and we got to work with her a few years um after she she was well okay so going back to when you

you start, how young are you when you start playing piano? I was seven, eight years old when I started taking lessons, but before that my mom was actors and singer. Oh, okay. So we had like musical kindergarten in our house. Sure. And always had musical instruments laying around and we had pianos and guitars and percussion instruments.

And my own first instrument was actually. actually a bass guitar that my dad made for me. He made made it out of, it was very primitive, it was made out of like wood, wooden planks and then strings, and he had an amp that he connected it to, and it was playable. Do you still have it? No, I'm afraid not.

I wish I had though. Did your dad, was he making other instruments? Or was he just, he just knew that you wanted to do it? Yeah, he is, um, like an engineer computer but he just was a fan genius so yeah so that's where I got the technical side

I mean my mom's just creative and then he's the tech side so when I was growing up too we always had like the the first commercially available computers oh right so I had all like the Sharp 10 and the Amigas and the Commodore 64s and all of that we had in our house and of course I was into music so I was playing around with music programs on those early, early computers. I started programming and sampling in the early 80s when I was a kid.

Wow. When you say you're a kid at that point, so you're... I was like 12 at that point. You're 12 and you're already doing sort of computer music. Where is this in Norway? Trondheim. It's third, fourth, maybe biggest city in Norway, but it's still super, super small.

It's about 200,000 people. at live there. Do does everyone from that town know who you are, they have to? I mean, I know how much press you guys get when you go home and all that. Is that town, is there like a statue of you

in the middle of the town or something? Not exactly. A lot of people know who we are in Norway. Sure. Much more than here. Sure. But it's nice.

I mean, people come up and say, oh, I love what you guys have done and it's inspiring to see that it's possible and that's... Do you go home at all? Yeah, go home a lot. Every summer and sometimes for Christmas and...

How did you meet Tor? We met at Warner Music in Norway because he used to work as head of A&R for Warners. Ah, right. And he had his own projects and writing songs and did his own thing. So you were producing and writing at that point

and then he was A&R and he was like, we should do this together? Yeah, I was working with another guy and had built the studio and had a lot of projects going on. We made money from doing commercials and that kind of stuff. And we used that money to finance our own projects. And then another friend of mine said, Tor and myself, you're the only two guys in Norway and know that are into R&B. music. Right. Nobody in Norway

was checking for that. Are there any R&B Norwegian singers? How do you go from, you know, I just don't I can't quite figure out how you end up, how you and Tor end up becoming the voice of R&B for 10 years? I mean, how does, how do you guys

end up going from there to, oh, here's Neo and Rihanna and Beyonce? And how do you go from the small town in Norway and say, oh, we're the only R&B guys of course you're the only r mb guys there man what what's the connection between that and it's just the love for music always drawn to soulful music grew up listening to a lot of stevie

wonder and ritha franklin and that was playing around the house because your mom was in music and so she was the one she was always it this is that how she sings uh yeah she's pretty soulful um amazing voice great inspiration and then I guess Tor and myself we just shared a lot of those references

right and what was the first project you guys worked on where you realized oh yeah this is actually this is real we should

we should now name our duo Stargate I mean at first it's not like the first time you write you say we are a writing team

you know how does it go what was that process organically he was working on act called Nora and Norwegian pop artists, but very soulful black girl. There weren't that many of those in Norway either. That's also when... That was late 90s, so 97, 98.

And that's also how we met our management, Tim Blacksmith and Danny D. Torr commissioned Tim to do a remix of of that artist that we were working on okay and then tim came to the studio in tronheim and he heard what else we were working on and saw the studio and he was he was blown away and said he couldn't believe it that these two guys up in actually were three guys then up in tronheim and we're making this music so he said let me bring this to my partner danny and um we would love to represent you guys for the UK market. So that's how we started getting into doing remixes for the UK.

That's kind of how we got started. First of all, what happened to the third guy? He's in Norway. Still a good, good friend of mine, and we hang out. He's still doing music, but for family reasons, he couldn't travel to the US. But he was part of the years in the UK. So all the way up until 2000. So Tim hears your music, flies over, shocked that you guys are, I mean, in that time,

Scandinavia is producing all the backstreet and Brittany and, you know, anything that between Sharon and the other thing that's sort of like Sharon, Sweden is producing the cleanest regular pop. And then not that far away, you guys just... I can imagine a lot of Norwegian producers at the time we're trying to copy the Swedes, not being like, oh, no, I'm going to be the next, you know, I want to be the next Quincy Jones. No, you should think so,

but I mean, that was our big inspiration is looking at Dennis Pop and Max Martin and those guys and Sharon and seeing that these guys are about the same age as us. They have the same equipment. They're from the same similar type of town and they're ruling the world and working with all this

great artist and having huge hits, worldwide hits. So why could we do it? That's how we looked at it and again very, very inspiring to see that is possible. So of course we kind of modeled or tried to model ourselves after that without trying to copy the sound

because you can't just be like a second tier share on. That's not going to get you anywhere. You have to kind of find your own voice and your own musical expression. Did you move to the UK? We never moved. We just traveled back and forth because we had a big setup in Norway.

We had a huge studio with two rooms and a huge live room and a very nice setup. So we had the UK and international artists come to us in record. So sometimes they were like paparazzi lurking out in the bushes in Trondheim and everyone in Trondheim and blue and all those guys came through.

And they're all sitting there, you know, all the there must have been the whole town must have loved it though right yeah yeah i mean it's just to go and put a you know that that pin on the on the map or everyone can say oh yeah this there's something happening in this town is pretty remarkable and um and all these stars were walking around in the city and went out to the clubs and the restaurants and but people are very polite in norway so they don't go up and necessarily approach you or ask to take a picture that they're just like watching it oh look who's over there like so is i mean when does neo show in the picture because it really seems like there's there's the music that you're

doing the uk very successful people know who you are and then it all explodes in like 2005 and six and seven all the way through now i mean what when did um when did neo show up and were you thinking this guy's an artist or a writer because the i think i was looking at the unfaithful, irreplaceable, and so sick, all come out almost the exact same time. Right. No, we thought we had a great run in the UK, and we did. We had like eight years of consistent big records. But at a certain point, Tim, our manager, said that,

was a guy at Radio One or the radio station who said, if I hear one more Stargate song now, I'm just going to, throw up so they were they were so tired of of us having that many hits I guess so they were like no enough of that was some of that because of your sound or was some of

it because the industry was it the industry or were you guys not branching out enough or was it just sort of these whatever it's just politics happens you just hit hit that wave and people told us that enough is enough and and

we had to move on which was a blessing because then we were like what do we do? Do we just shut it down or do we try something else? Were you scared at this point? I mean at that point you're being told like the doors that are wide open you've had all these

number one songs but we're going to end the UK and we're going to close this door for you and it's not like you did anything wrong you would sound like you were you didn't do anything that earned that kind of disdain right? But I guess also it can happen when all of

us had made a little bit of money and we had houses and cars and we're like getting maybe a little bit complacent and then you lose the edge. Interesting. That can happen. Maybe that was one of the reasons. But luckily then we decided to do a week in New York, use our last money in the company account and book flights and studios and just go for it because we've always had a dream about US but never really kind of broken through. We'd tried a few projects. We'd tried a few but it didn't amount to anything so then we jumped on the plane booked the studio called our publisher who helped us set up a few sessions with like mid-level writers and and we just did one week and the goal was to sell one song in that week because then we would break even

and then we could come back for another week so we managed to sell one song for a night week so we managed to sell one song. I think it was some Paula Dianda or I don't even remember it was like a unknown artist at that time. But we sold the song and we could come back for another trip. And that's where Tim and Danny

our management met Neo at a meeting at a record company. And at this point he had nothing, he hadn't written anything yet or at that point was he already a big writer. He was just breaking through with the Mario Let Me Love You record. so he just kind of had a

I don't know if he was number one at that point but it was it was going right so then they listened to his songs and material and were blown away and they told us about him yo we listened

we heard this amazing artist writer at this record company you guys would love it right and then by chance neo showed up at Sony Studios in New York for some meetings or some other business and we were able to lure him into our room right and playing play him some of our

tracks and our music and uh and he loved it he was like he couldn't believe that these two skinny norwegians and made this this music so um so it was just like a chemistry that was instant and again it doesn't matter of where you come from in music as long as you share the compassion and references and love for music and he quickly understood that oh these guys know what they're doing and vice versa we were just breathtaking by his talent

and his voice and his writing so you're sitting down at the piano or the keyboard and you start doing the so sick is so sick first or no no it's not first we did one or two other ones before that I think we did a ballad called Time, which is also one of his first album. And then Neo's manager, Tango, comes in.

He's in the building as well. And that's when we start writing So Sick, which is this little harp riff that we came up with and Neo just gravitated to it. And I know in his stories he's telling us that he had this song already and he was just waiting for the right music to kind of put it on.

Yeah, sure. Sure. And when he heard this song, he was just, this is it, it just clicked. But then after we get started on Soul Sick, just a verse in the pre, I think, the manager comes in and says, no, no, no, no, no, we don't need any more mid tempos or ballads.

We want to up tempo with brass sounds and banging beats and so stop what you're doing and do that instead. And at that point, we weren't anyone to argue. So we said, okay, we'll do that instead then. And then we did this other song with banging beats and brass stabs and all that good stuff. That turned out okay. But luckily afterwards, we finished so sick.

And then somehow just during that, you just end up writing three master's songs with the Rihanna one, Beyonce and Neo. And all three of their careers. I guess Unfaithful was really important for Rihanna because it obviously took her from Pondondondi replay

and SOS and some of those more poppy records and then here's like a real lyric. And a really pretty ballad, but it's super, I mean, I still have trouble listening to it because of how strong that lyric is.

is really like a dangerous lyric, you know? It is. And you're releasing all this music that's becoming, that's shaping these massive stars was trying to get to New York spending your last dollar. You go and you write these songs with Neo, and then all of a sudden you guys are like super producers. You know, from the release of So Sick,

or whichever one was first, you know, from the release of that to when people start calling you for everything. I mean, then all the doors must open, right? Yeah, that happened really quickly. And we knew the moment we wrote so sick as well when we'd finished recording it, probably took Neo 20 minutes

to record those vocals. We just knew this is the best song we've ever done, and this is really special. And that same night, all the guys like Tata, and J. Brown, and the deaf jam people came down to the studio, listened to it, and we're dancing around.

So everybody knew this was special. we had no idea was the number one or a big record. But we knew it was the best stuff we'd ever done. And at that point, we knew we have a shot at making it here as well. I mean, really up to any, I'm noticing just as you start having more and more songs that do well, then you realize when something's really not great. And you kind of skip through that much faster. I think that's the advantage of having, once you start seeing,

oh, that's what it takes. Right. You know, then I guess I should put in that extra effort. Because I know that the difference between this song that's going to sit on my iTunes or at that time in your hard drive, maybe. You know, to have it, the difference between that and the song that goes to radio and then the song that reacts at radio, there is a difference. Oh, yeah, huge difference.

I mean, I... I just realizing how simple it can be as well. That also takes a long time because when you become good, you want to do all these fancy stuff. and you want to produce it and add harmonies and you want to make it sound really professional. But it's when you understand, like, it's all about the core of the song, like the harmonic and melodic core and the lyrics, and that's what matters and all that other stuff is. That's one of the things you guys do really well is that you look at the Swedish counterparts.

And when I'm writing over there, we're stacking a lot of harmonies. And there's a lot of counter melodies, all these things happening at once. You know, we're doing 16 tracks and choruses. And it's like a wall of sound vibe, which is very different than a lot of these songs are one vocal, no harmonies, no, you know, very few background things. And you're just letting the singer sing it. And the production, even, like something like Same Old Love is really, good example of the difference between what, you know, what happens, even from when we first wrote that song to the track that we wrote it to, to where you guys took it.

Where here that we wrote it to a track that was, had a lot of guitars, was, you know, almost uptempo kind of Katie Perryish. Right. And then you guys, you didn't marry yourselves to it. Instead, you said, let's throw the track away. We love the top line. And to start completely over. I mean, how do you not get emotionally attached to some songs?

That's probably due to our 8 years in the UK remixing a lot of big records from the US and then we did our European versions so we kind of learned that

you can totally change a song with just altering chords and production and we do that a lot actually because you always have the original

so it's not like you're discarding it you're just oh let's see what else we can do Let's see if there are any other chords or... Nobody wants to put in that effort. I can't tell you how many times you're in a session where, I mean, the joke I make is, you know, production is the best way to screw up a song.

You know, I just think of, like, here, we have a perfectly good song, and then a producer comes along over and over again and just, like, does this weird, whack production. And then you're like, well, maybe it's not the right production, and they get really offended rather than, you know, maybe we should see what else we can do with this, you know? And the fact that you guys

aren't ever married to it is probably you know, a fortune no one else can really hear unless they work with you. So I think that's pretty cool. I love doing that and it is of course also recognizing a good top line. Some songs

are not worth working that extra or putting that extra effort into, but but some songs again it could change totally the whole expression and you can create magic

by just changing it around a little bit and seeing kind of what else is in there does English being your second language does that affect how you hear certain top line is that is that

you know I'm sure so if if we can't understand it or get it then we usually say hey can you say it is in a simpler way or can I mean I guess the simple thing for you guys is really interesting because I can't I can't write rude boy there's no way I walk into a room and write rude boy there's no way I can do that I can't do uh you guys do what's my name too right and uh I can't write that I can't write the Esther Dean Top line like that turns out to be the next after Neo you end up with Esther as like as a main collaborator as a main collaborator

and what she writes is something that is so not just doesn't it doesn't make sense with me because I can't I can't simplify that much right every time I do I think nah this isn't any good and then you guys end up with yeah no no what's my name yeah it's like can you say that are you allowed to say that right I mean we've done a couple records that are are pretty simple right but I don't I think that's like um it takes so much confidence to say no this is done this is done and we can

we can say come and get it over and over again or say old love over and over again be like I don't know you're going to want to sing along to this still you know Lionel Richie has the best quote I just saw him the other day

he's such a great great guy and he told us a long time ago that it's not about if I can sing it it's about if they can sing it right so that's his motto as well it's like he doesn't care if if the lyrics are super clever and has a deeper meaning,

it's about can my audience and can does it relate to my audience and can people sing it? It's funny you say that because you have someone like Sia that you work with a lot too and Sia goes from she manages in a lot of these songs to be lyrically simple

but melodically really complex. Right. I mean even Diamonds is a pretty complex melody considering how simple the lyrics are and they're not even that simple they're super unique that singability that's the thing that I think

is unanimous with the Scandinavians is the love of melody you know that there's there is that she can sing all over the place I mean how do you go from you know the rhythmic feel of Esther to the melodic feel of

Sia how does all that happen to you how when you hear that how are you connected to such different kind of top liners it's a tough question but I mean it's all about emotional connection and you just feel it when there's some magic there and when it feels right

then you roll with that and even though they're very different it's all about character for me it's all about like does it have that character and that emotion that

we're looking for it and if it doesn't we'll try something else and both see and esther has a very very strong character right and same lyrically we always try to look for statements or lyrics that when when you're actually saying something not just talking about your general feelings or i'm so sad today or like please come back but just telling a story and that's what's so great about neo as well he really draws you in and paints a picture. Sure. When did you guys start

collaborating with other producers? Your relationship with Benny is super unique. There aren't a lot of producers, especially two huge production companies getting together and saying yeah, let's just make some songs together. I mean, that same philosophy

of how you're not married to attract is something that shows shows where your ego doesn't get in the way of your music writing. And then to go and collaborate with another producer in an era where that's just sort of beginning. You guys are kind of trailblazing the idea of, oh, no, we're all a community. And to not view it as this is ours and that's yours. Where did that start? And how did you start collaborating with someone like Benny?

I think it started even back in Norway as well we were even resistant in sharing our publishing rights or sharing our commissions with managers until we realized like hey wait a minute they add so much value to the whole picture that I mean the pie the pie is becoming bigger so it's good for everyone the same we applied to other producers and writers it doesn't matter if we share

if we can do more and do better and do bigger things. Right. So that's really, I think, been important for us to work with other producers like Benny and Sandy and Kashmir and all these other great

producers and writers. We've done a bunch of these writing camps together where you have this sort of free flow, everyone writes with each other, run into each other's rooms and say, hey, how about this idea? How about that idea? That also seems to be something that you guys are not afraid of.

Was that something that you guys had somebody suggested you should try it? Or was it something where you guys said, no, we should start doing this. No one else is doing this. I mean, how does that start where the first time we wrote together, I think it was you guys and me and Amar and Dano and maybe even see us? and Jeff Basker and Nate from Fun.

And, you know, we had all these people coming in and out of these rooms. We hadn't done it that much. We hadn't actually done it before we started working more in L.A. In New York, we didn't really have camps like that. It was more like single sessions. So I think it was Benny, actually, who introduced us to that way of working. And we just thought it was really fun and inspiring way of. of doing it.

It's very intense, but also there's a lot of great ideas that come out of it usually. And also another reason for bringing in other producers to collaborate with is of course just to keep it fresh. Because when you're in the studio, every single day, I worked with tour for 18 years, and we made some incredible music together. But at a certain point, it's also great to have someone come in with a fresh idea

that none of us could have come up with and then we feed off of that and it can do our best with other people as well so we're just trying to keep it really fluent and open and is that how you treat it even when you're with

because you're jumping around all over the place when you're saying that you're with Lionel I know you're working on killers you just had the Cole play album and yet we were just talking about Rihanna and Beyonce and I mean is that do you guys look for branching out on you obviously look for branching out on the artist side also so you're trying new things on the production trying new things on the artist is that is that are you

learning from anybody who else does that on the on the artist side I mean we're learning every single day and that's again also what keeps me inspired and keeps it fresh is that you work with so many different types of genres and types of artists And again, I think that's an advantage of coming from Europe that we don't necessarily belong to a certain group of people or we're not locked into a genre. So we can go from a Sugar Land or Keith Urban record to Whiskalifa or Selena Gomez

and the goalplay and everything in between. Now it's just very inspiring to work with that level of talent in all these different genres. I also know that there's other things that inspire you. Now you are an investor and a founder of a clothing company. Yeah, we have a few other fun ventures as well. So you're jumping from, okay, now you're expanding. This is when I said you're, you know, as an entrepreneur,

I don't know other people who on the production side and the writer's side that are so aggressive on being part of other ventures like clothing and spinnable, which we'll get into. But how do you go and get involved in clothing? I mean, did someone approach you? Or you just, how does this happen? Are you always into it? No, not really.

I mean, obviously, always loved to wear clothes. Right, of course. Right. But never like super into fashion or high fashion. But this designer from Norway, I just started wearing his clothes. and really love the fit and the quality and the materials and the way the aesthetics. So it just happened organically that when I started wearing the clothes, it got a lot of comments like, hey, what's that?

I love that jacket or that shirt. And after a while, my wife Hage and me found out that, hey, there's a lot more potential here than the current company and the line. We think this could be a lot bigger. Because then he was super, super small local. And where is it right now? Now we're in almost 200 stores worldwide and have built a couple of our own stores as well.

And it's gone really well. So how are you going from that and to something like Spinnable, which is a new app? And are those connected in any way? I mean, are you going to, how do you, you keep branching out? Where does Spinnable come into this? I mean, there's always synergies, but I think the core of it is that I just have a need to create.

And when I see something that I just want to make it bigger or make it, it's hard to explain, just to make something more out of it. and bring something new to the world. Right, right. And the same with that tech company that you're referring to called Spinnable, which is a new social app, that all the content, the pictures and videos are immersive

so that you can actually look around in kind of a virtual reality experience. Again, just the first time I saw that technology seven years ago, I was blown away and I knew this is the future, this is how we are going to consume content and communicate. And now the last few years it's really caught on and people are becoming used to it and aware of that type of technology and VR immersive experiences.

It's cool because it's not an app that looks like it's a fad. It's not just some sort of thing where we've seen some of these apps or it distorts your face or it does. Right. It's something that everyone uses for a couple weeks, and then it gets oversaturated, and no one uses it anymore. And this actually feels like this could be a vine or Instagram of sorts. It certainly can be integrated in all of it.

That's what I believe, too, that it's come to stay, and it's just the beginning. Right. It's really remarkable. are going to become a lot better. They're going to become integrated into your phone. The virtual reality headsets are going to become better. But the most important thing is that the content is going to get better.

And that's where we think we can make something really great. We're creating content that people care about. Considering where you grew up where you had access to computers that no one else really had access to and that you were able to see technology before anyone else could. It kind of makes sense that you would see this and say, this could be the next thing. I imagine that sort of that training that you had

when you were six, seven, and eight years old of seeing here's, you know, I can make music with this thing, that you can see something like this camera and this app and think, oh, yeah, this is going to be something that a lot of people can make movies with, can make, you know, whatever conversation with socially, that you can see.

that this is new technology. I imagine that you're everyone that you grew up with who knew that you were into computers then is pretty impressed with this app also. Yeah, I just love coming up with ideas and making them real. Sure.

I mean, that's the reason we do music as well, right? It's creating something that makes a difference and that people care about and it kind of takes on its own life. And the same I think this Spinnable app can do. I can't wait to see how people will use it and what they can create with it. Are your kids into music and stuff?

Yeah, they're very into... They both sing and dance and follow popular culture and music. Have they been able to use this spin... Have they been doing Spinnable in school? Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, when they look at a regular picture now, they try to touch it and swipe it and look around, but it's static.

It doesn't move it. How old are they? They're 8 and 12, two girls. That's awesome, man. So they're really, really into both music and tech. When they listen to radio, are they just constantly telling their friends? My dad wrote that? Yeah, we try to hold it down a little bit.

I'm sure they're proud, so they want to tell their friends about it. Well, I have to say thank you, because without your part of my career, I wouldn't be where I'm at now. It's pretty amazing to see from that first session of hoping that you guys didn't hear that song to being in this position where we can share multiple hits together

and it just feels like the beginning of this community of inclusiveness and you guys are leading the way by putting your ego aside and connecting with so many different producers and writers and artists and and everyone's recognizing that that's happening and that's why it's not like you guys are surviving in this you guys are flourishing at such a high level and I just think everyone who knows you is really proud to be a part of your community so likewise we are very

proud to be part of it as well and we are so fortunate to work with people like yourself and everyone we work with it's um I mean it's Of course, as you know, it's truly a team effort. What we do is only half the job. Nice. Well, thank you so much, and I'll see you on the Spinnable app. Definitely. See you soon. Take care. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at anandtherwriter is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and The Writer is.

It's L.A. Reed, who for some reason is hanging just hand. hanging with Sierra. Just Sierra is there randomly. You got L.A., Sierra, Tricky Stewart, Larry, you know, my publisher, and me. And it's, you know, it's after hours. It's all shut off and dark and everything. And they walk me into a big audition,

rehearsal, stage room. It's almost like a screening room, like a small theater. There's a piano on stage. And L.A. is like, you know, can you play a song? Oh, I was so nervous. I've never, ever, ever been more nervous. Can you imagine that?

No. This theater holds like 400 people, and you have L.A., Sierra, and Tricky, just sitting there in the front row, just looking at you, like, sing us a song. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.