And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 122: Ingrid Andress

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

Described as “A signpost for modern female complexity,” by Billboard, today’s Warner Music Nashville / Atlantic Records recording artist guest was nominated for three GRAMMY Awards and was the only country artist nominated in the general field “Big Four” categories as a Best New Artist nominee. Tied as this year’s most-nominated country artist alongside Miranda Lambert, she co-wrote and co-produced every song on her debut album, Lady Like, which earned a nod in the Best Country Album category as well. The critically-lauded project features her Platinum-selling, No. 1 debut single “More Hearts Than Mine,” also nominated for Best Country Song, and her current single “Lady Like,” which is climbing the country radio charts now. In addition, the 2020 CMA, ACM and CMT Music Awards nominee took home Song of the Year honors earlier this year from both the MusicRow Awards and NSAI’s Nashville Songwriter Awards. She has received widespread acclaim from outlets such as The New York Times, NPR, HUFFPOST, Entertainment Weekly, ELLE, Teen Vogue, WWD, PAPER and Wonderland to name a few and has made several national TV performances including appearances on ELLEN, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, The Late Late Show with James Corden, TODAY, Late Night with Seth Meyers, The 54th Annual CMA Awards and The 2020 CMT Music Awards. The accomplished singer / songwriter has penned songs for artists including Bebe Rexha, Charli XCX, FLETCHER and Dove Cameron. Having started last year touring with Keith Urban on select dates, Andress’ 2020 tour dates also included shows with Dan + Shay, Tim McGraw and Thomas Rhett. And The Writer Is… Ingrid Andress!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. www.com. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golland. Today's Phenom is an American country music star

whose musical journey takes us through multiple genres, with some of the most influential writers, this woman has lived all over the country, which explains why she plays multiple instruments, founded a cappella groups, has gone to prestigious music schools, crafted hits with pop stars, etc., etc., all on her road to receiving multiple Grammy nominations this year,

including Best New Artist, Best Country Song, and Best Country Album. Not bad for someone who used to, to scoop ice cream for a living. From all over the place, probably Nashville right now, this writer's debut single, More Hearts Than Mine, is the kind of song everyone wishes they wrote. And the writer is Ingrid Andrus.

Hello. Great intro. Okay, okay. So, as we said before, you and I have a lot of friends in common. So I'm excited to, we'll start from the beginning and then we'll just, you know, I naturally just grace over a bunch of them, I'm sure. But with a name like Ingrid Andrus,

my assumption is that your family is Scandinavian. Yes, Scandinavian heritage. My parents are definitely born and raised in America, though. My mom just decided that all of us would be named, you know, after old Swedish people. Is it a specific Swedish person? I think they just picked all the most elderly names for my siblings because I haven't met a young Ingrid before.

They're all like grandmothers. What are your other siblings names? Hana, Lars, Brea and Britta. Yeah. So do people that you meet, because in the songwriting world, there are so many Swedes. Do people ever speak to you in Swedish with the assumption that you understand Swedish? So that has happened to me before.

And also, I feel like at the beginning, most of when, like, nobody knew who I was, but I'd get all these cool sessions because everybody just assumed that I was a pop writer from Sweden. And then I would show up and they'd be like, oh, shit. This is, she is not a pop writer from Sweden. and we really we really fucked this up. But you obviously showed up when you, when you ended up in the rooms,

you did pretty well because you ended up with a bunch of pop songs. So I mean, totally. Yeah. I pulled my weight, but definitely not actually from Sweden. Not on purpose. And I wonder,

it's like, you know, Joe London, who obviously is listening to this call right now. You know, we've talked about how when you change your name to something that sometimes like changing your name can be really advantageous because someone would want to work with someone who's got you have such a good name that I imagine people

just end up wanting to work with you because they're like, oh yeah, that like I would rather work with with that name than, you know, Ross Golan. Like, who. All right. Let's go from the beginning because you, you know, you were born in Michigan. Obviously you know this. I do. Yeah.

But then you were raised in Colorado. Why did your family move around? So my dad was a strength and conditioning coach for Major League Baseball. And he started with the Detroit Tigers, but we didn't obviously stay there for very long. So then he started working for the Colorado Rockies. So we would basically travel with him because in baseball, you have spring training for two months out of the year. so we would go to Arizona for that. So I'm pretty used to like kind of being all over the place as far as, you know,

just learning to adapt to whatever situation you're in. Did your parents play music at all? Well, my mom taught us all piano. But I started when I was six. What? Was she a piano teacher? I mean, definitely not like. like a qualified teacher, but she knew how to play and, like, pretty well.

And I, you know, I started off hating it. But when you live with your piano teacher, it's hard to, you know, get away with stuff because she knows when you're not practicing. So that was a... You guys all have to practice on the same piano? Yep, we'd all take turns. We'd all have to do 30-minute practice. 30-minute practices a day.

Who's the best? Well, now I am, because nobody else really continued to play. But looking back, I'm glad that she was that strict about it, because I definitely would have quit early on. Yeah. I mean, it also says that you played drums. So my assumption is that when you were growing up, you guys had this family band.

Like, that's how I envisioned the Honduras, the Andrews kids. I mean, my sister and I, once I moved on to drums, she moved on to guitar. And so we thought we were going to be in a band. And then my sister was not as pumped about it as I was. So I did try to start my own little metal band

when I was in middle school. What was that band called? We never made it that far to a band name because we practiced maybe like five times and I was just like, this is not good. We're not good. Because the lead singer just wanted to scream into the microphone. I'm like, I like that, but you got to time it right, you know.

You can't just be screaming the whole time. So I was a little bummed, but I worked out for the better. Why were you not the singer? Because I was a drummer. And I hadn't learned to sing and drum at the same time yet because I was still so new. Actually, I never learned how to do. that if we're being honest, you know. The drummer for Under Oath was always my, because he sings and plays at the same time. And I was like, that's so sick, but I never got there. Yeah. I mean,

Don Henley from the Eagles and Phil Carlin. And like, there's a lineage of, I mean, a Dave role, they're all these great drummer, singers, you know. I mean, there's something about drummers that make really good songwriters. And I think it's because you don't necessarily hear everything on the same beat because you have you have some drum fills you know yeah when did you rhythmic for sure when did you start writing um I feel like I didn't you know I started writing it was more like emo like poetry you know in high school um and then that's when I sort of

started teaching myself to sing and play piano at the same time I wouldn't call them songs. They're probably more just like brooding adolescent complaints, you know. And then I didn't really start understanding songwriting until I went to Berkeley for a little bit because I didn't think that you could, that that was a thing, like a career choice. I just thought it was something that people did. I don't know. I didn't know much about it. But you were at, you were growing up in, in choir. and you were doing musicals and doing all that stuff. So, I mean, you had some knowledge of what a good song was.

Totally. And I think, yeah, I think because my musical taste was so all over the place, I think that's also why songwriting was always interesting to me because there's so many different ways that you can, you know, there's so many different types of songs and how they're lyrically structured. and so that was always really interesting to me how country was so different from like how Eminem structures a song

to how, you know, metal music is so different with like all the different time signatures. So to me that was always interesting. I just didn't know that you could, that I could pursue it because nobody around me knew anything about how to become a songwriter. If you grow up doing emo poetry and you grew up in Colorado

where there is actually a country scene in Colorado. But you were saying under oath it was like a band that you liked. You were listening to all kinds of music that was not what I didn't just, it's not like country was the only music you were listening to clearly. You know?

Yeah. My parents were really strict growing up, like very religious. And so they would only let us listen to Christian music. And I was like, this is terrible. So I asked my friends in my neighborhood to, like, burn me CDs of, like, whatever they were listening to. And that's how I started getting exposed to all these different things. Because, you know, the first song would be, like, 3 a.m. by Eminem. And then the next song would be The Dance by Garth Brooks.

And I'd be like, whoa. So I never really listened to stuff, like, by album. It was just all these different songs from all these different genres. So that's how I kind of got exposed to to country. But I will say before that, my mom was a huge John Denver fan. So he's always my favorite. Did your family know that you were listening to music outside of what you were allowed to listen to? Or did they play stupid?

Or were you really hiding this stuff from that? I was really hiding it. Like I told my friends, I was like, don't. like draw whatever is on this CD, like just say like mix one or like mix two. Like don't, don't tell me anything because I need to be able to put this in my Stephen Curtis Chapman CD cover and have my parents think that that's what it is. Oh my God. What are the consequences for listening to music that's not Christian music? I got grounded once my dad wanted to listen to an actual Christian, And, you know, I can't remember what artist it was,

but he put it in my CD and, like, the first song was like a slip-knot song, and he was pissed. I mean, that's literally the opposite. Literally. It's the opposite song than you're allowed to hear. I imagine that's pretty shocking. I think it was a song called Wait and Bleed. And, yeah, yeah, he was not happy.

That happened, I think, at least three times. but I feel like that is very minimal for how many different CDs I had. Are you religious? I am not. Yeah, I feel like more spiritual for sure, but I was never really into the whole religious thing. Is that hard for your family? No.

My mom did a complete 180. She is now really into Reiki and crystals. Yeah, nice. Yeah. So we've really expanded and grown for sure. I mean, what makes people change? I think events in your life that make you look at things differently, for sure. So I think after we all got out of the house and they experienced life without kids and they also moved to a cabin in the middle of the woods in Minnesota.

So that could really change somebody as well. Right. Was your dad working with the twins? Did he move from the Rockies to work with the twins? Or were he done with that at that point? He was pretty much done. His last team he worked for was the Mets. Yeah. And then, but by that time, I was in college. So we didn't move to New York. He was just, he had a place there. But he retired after that. It was just like, done. Did you think you were going to, you know, when you go to Berkeley, but you don't know much about songwriting, why did you choose to go to a music school of all the place? Did you want to do musical theater? Did you want to sing? Or was it just like that was your hobby?

So it's like, well, I guess I'm going to go to school for that. It was pretty much that, like, because I knew nothing about it. We actually, I found out about it by the Colorado Rockies played the Boston Red Sox in the World Series. And so we were walking to Fenway and we walked by Berkeley and I heard all this music coming from there. And at that point, like, I, music was like my favorite hobby. Like I would do it all the time. And so we go in there and I'm like, wait, you can go to school for music? I was like, why has nobody told me this?

And so I was like, mom, I'm going here. And I'm really glad I didn't know like how prestigious it was. Otherwise, I would have never even applied because I have. because to me like I you know once you get there you find out like how many people have been dreaming of going there their whole lives and then you show up and you're just like yeah I just walk by this place and I wanted to go here like you sound like such a prick so um yeah I would just I think I went there because I was like this is all I love to do and so if I can turn this into something that seems like it's an accomplishment then like great but but like I just want to be able to play music all the time. Yeah, of course. What do you, I don't know that much about the Berkeley curriculum. I know enough about it, but what is your, you have to pick when you go there?

Do you have to be, I'm a songwriting student or I'm a guitar student or I'm a guitar singer? I'm a singer. What did you study? So I got in as a vocalist, a vocal major. And I, I literally switched. my major every semester that I was there because I had no idea what I wanted to do. Which was great because I got to like kind of get a piece of everything. So I first was like, oh, I want to be a composer.

And then you get to the class where you have to create like a, you know, a piece for a string quartet. And I was just like, I don't like this. So then the next semester it was performance. And I was like, why do I need a degree in performance? Like, this is stupid. And then I go to the next one, which is engineering. And then I had my first Pro Tools class, and I was like, woo.

But also, I will say, I feel like I would get into it more, but the teacher was basically like, you're only going to make money if you do commercial jingles. So you have to, you know, use Pro Tools to make a commercial jingle. And I'm like, no. So songwriting was my last pick. And here we are. So it worked out.

But I never graduated. So that was just sort of like, once you realize you don't need a degree in songwriting, you're like, okay, well, I'm leaving. Did your family support the decision of dropping out of school? They didn't know that I didn't graduate until many years later. How do they not know that? Because I had had enough credits to where I could walk. Do you feel like you need to finish it now or no?

No. You're down. No, because it gets to a certain point too where it's just like they start filling in, like you start wasting time doing things that you really don't want to do, like taking a conducting class. I'm like, I'd rather be songwriting. And they're like, no, you need to learn how to conduct an orchestra. And I'm like, okay.

Like when, which to me in hindsight, I'm like, that would actually be cool if I like could wear Britney mic and like be singing my own song while conducting. Like nobody's done that. Like pretty cool. You could still probably figure some of that out. Oh, for sure. You know, I think it's called an ipthus, you know,

where your hand stops at the certain, like any composing any conducting dork is listening to this is going to be super stoked right now okay why is it that people who are involved in acapella

are also good songwriters because I feel like drummers and I you know that I was in an aquapella group the same year and I've said this before where it's like Sarah Borellis was at UCLA when I was at USC.

And I know that John Legend was at Penn State when I was at USC. We were all the same year. And I know of a bunch of people who are pretty successful who were in acapella groups. That's crazy. Even though you weren't into string quartets, the arrangements that you have to learn are pretty substantial. What is it about acapella that that non-acapella people because the

sorry, going back like in L.A. there are no real Acapella groups. There are some at USC and UCLA but it's not like the Midwest where everyone knows someone who was in an acapella group

and it's totally. It's not like the East Coast where literally arenas can fill out with some acapella groups. You know, it's so, so big. But yet people in the pop world just don't even know it exists

or they don't even think that it's a real thing. Totally. real and you had an experience of being on the sing-off on NBC and all this stuff. So tell me about your acapella journey and why Acapella makes good songwriters. Well, I joined the Berkeley Acapella group because I

needed to make friends. So I auditioned for that and it was like kind of a because I'd been in choirs before and like smaller jazz choirs. So I was aware of like how Acapel worked, but I had never gotten into the pop side of it. And so to me, I feel like once you start learning how to arrange things, it really opens your mind up to like, oh, we don't have instruments, so we need to get more creative on how to make this song ebb and flow without, you know, the ease of like, being able to, I feel like instruments, it's easy to add crescendo and like to build a song up

because you just add more instruments. Where as an acapella, you have to get creative because you don't have that luxury. So to me, you just start learning how different melodies work with other, you know, in certain parts of the song. And, you know, when to build things to like be more staccato, to sound like string stabs. Like it just opens your mind up more creatively. and it just, I don't know, it's just a completely different way of arranging. Were you intimidated to start showing the songs that you were writing?

And if you were intimidated to even go to Berkeley, because of those kids who wanted to do it, were you also intimidated as a songwriter to, you know, because of all the people who wanted to be songwriters? I don't ever remember being intimidated because I was just so curious. Like, I really wanted to learn. So to me, I would always come into class every day and want to be the first one to play because I was like, I just, I want feedback.

Like, I want to know if I'm doing this properly because I want to be good at it. So to me, it was more about the skill of it that I really wanted to learn quickly. because I knew that I didn't want to stay in school for that much longer. So to me, I was just like, I want to get as much feedback as possible before I move to wherever. So, and I think, so Kara DiGuardi taught a songwriting class the last semester that I was at Berkeley. And so she really expedited my process because she was not shy about being. about critiquing my music for sure. She's not shy.

In fact, she asked a question on what would Kara DiGuardi asked Ingrid Andrus on and the writer is, she asks you, what would you sing if you were at Santa's Pub? Oh, well, I probably do a round two of us singing before he cheats because we got kicked off the stage because we started this song Cussing. We were like, what's up, bitches? And then they shut us off.

We didn't even get to sing it because their rule at Santa's pub is you are not allowed to curse on the microphone. Yeah, sort of on the line there, especially in... Wait, explain what Santa's Pub is. I guess if people don't know what it is, to explain it. So Santa's Pub is basically this old trailer

in Nashville that they turned into a bar and the guy who owns it literally looks like Santa Claus and it's decked out and like Christmas lights all year round and it's like this divey, smoky, dark karaoke place basically that only serves beer and it is a Nashville gym. Yeah, it's an essential location for anybody who's ever been in Nashville to spend time and to spend time and to get inebriated there. Yes. Fantastic fun times.

And Kara sends her best and wants me to tell you that. But I'm texting her afterwards. So Kara, who's one of the great songwriters of the generation, had, you know, at this point, had already been a former coach on American Idol. Everybody knows who she is. Everyone will get to know her when they hear her interview on Anne the writer is. but, you know, to have a mentor like that is insane, you know? Yes.

But she immediately introduces you to people in the business. Did you go to Nashville from Berkeley? I did, yeah. I drove there. So basically the progression was she, at the end of the semester, was like, I think you are really good. but you need to like put the work in. She's like, I don't know how seriously you want to pursue this.

But I think you have a lot of potential. And I was just like, cool. So I drove, I picked Nashville because I had visited there. And I was just like, you know what? This is actually like the songwriting capital of the world. I know it's primarily country, which I loved writing. But I just was like, yeah, I'm just going to drive to Nashville. I didn't really know anybody.

She said that she would hook me up with this producer, Frank Rogers, eventually. I was like, okay, cool. So I literally drove there, only knowing one person and just kind of like started figuring it out on my own. And going to songwriter rounds and like testing songs out and just kind of getting, once again, just wanting to learn and wanting to get feedback. And like really open to criticism because I think what I learned from Kara, is like I would much rather have somebody be honest with me about something, even if it hurts my feelings because, you know, I feel like a lot of the times songwriters are really sensitive

because they're putting their heart and soul into a song, which is beautiful. But if you wanted to resonate with other people, you need some sort of feedback until you innately know it yourself, you know? So I'm very thankful that I had her as a mentor and I think it's super important for anybody who wants to be a writer to have somebody they trust to give feedback early on. We've all written a lot of songs that we thought were good but it just seems like crowds don't really react to it the same way.

And when you're doing songwriter rounds, you know, it's really evident. What was the first song where you realized that you might actually be competitive and that you might be as good as, you know, your expectations? There were a few songs. And it wasn't ever really like this big, like, aha moment. It was really more of like a, oh, I had, you just start getting more and more people coming up to you after rounds being like, hey, I really like this one song you played. Like, that totally happened to me or, and that just started happening more and more the more I wrote. So I feel like there are a few songs.

There was one that I had the concept for a while, and then I remember finally writing it, and everybody reacted to that song. It's not out. It was called Caught Fire, but that's the one that Kara was like, okay, yeah, you figured it out. Like, here we go.

So, yeah, it was just, it really was about learning how to hook a concept, and that was kind of the thing that it took me a while to master and then not master but at least like know how to do what did that mean hook a concept like the the Nashville twist of like the smart how do you hook it in a way that you're like oh um which it's to me now it's fun because it's more like a puzzle um but like how do you how do you flip words how do you how do you say something in a way that nobody said it before. Which to me is not always the best way to write a song

because there's nothing more. Like sometimes I love like a mindless like body, aadi, adi, adi, adi, adi, like there's no twist in that. There's no, no, like, no flip, no nothing, which is great. Like, I'm, you know, the older I get, the more I'm like, you know what I'm here for some mindless shit. But the thing that got me into songwriting was those twists

and those like, how do you say this in a unique way? So that's my favorite version of writing. Yeah, I mean, I can't wait until we get to the more heart than mine. And I know I'm taking my time, but that's because that's what we have. Take it. You take it. You know, you go to Nashville, you start playing songwriter rounds. And then the first release that you have is with Charlie XX,

co-written with one of our favorites, Emily Warren, who I haven't talked to in probably 30, minutes. I talked to her this morning. You know, this song, Boys, and to me, I feel like Boys is in this small category of songs that I would

have put a lot of money on being a smash that I don't think got its fair shake. Charlie's incredible. The video's phenomenal. The song's great. But it is everything but country music, how does somebody who's in Nashville doing songwriter rounds end up co-writing, maybe one of the,

I mean this in the best possible way, but one of the pop-y is pop songs. It's so the opposite. What is the scenario that you found yourself in? So I started going back and forth between Nashville and L.A. because I was writing these songs in Nashville that were so in between at the time where people were like, oh, this is too pop for country or it's too country for pop kind of thing. But I was writing about these concepts in Nashville that were a little more emotional. And people did not, they were not into that.

They were like, where's the beer, where's the trucks in your music? like how are we going to pitch this? Like nobody wants to sing about this. So I got frustrated and then I was like, okay, fine. I'm going to go out to L.A. and Michael Pollock and I actually met here in Nashville when he went to Vanderbilt. He's one of my best friends. And so we kind of started going out there.

And yeah, we were just like, forget country. Like nobody likes any of our songs. Like let's just go, you know, make riding trips to L.A. And when we wrote boys, it was in Ari or Lau, as we all know him. It was in his bedroom. And we kind of wrote, we wrote the verses and everything like very like stripped down, which is a very national way of writing things. But I feel like to me, writing is writing, you know, it doesn't really, you figure out

the genre later. But for me, I'm like, I just do whatever. I feel like is good for the song. And so I'm not really ever sure how it just kind of morphed into like this. I think it just comes from me listening to all different genres of music when I was younger. I'd never picking one as being like, this is my favorite, you know? And I feel like that just comes out in writing. I did not realize that Lauvo was a writer on it.

But yes, of course he's a writer on it. He will also have his episode on The Right. And I'm sure we'll get Pollack on soon. It's like... How's surprised Pollack hasn't been on yet? Come on, Pollack. Where are you at? Exactly.

I mean, how you... That's such a superstar group of writers for a song. I think a lot of people should go and listen to it. But I think when your first song is that, and because your co-writers are in that, you know, they're really a big part of the pop zeitgeist right now, especially with Pollock Lov and Emily and Charlie. So I'm sure you have an open door to work in pop anytime you want.

And we know of a lot of huge writers in Nashville who come to L.A. and have been to L.A. a ton and just can't write a pop song. Yeah. It's a very different vibe. It's a very different vibe. But I mean, like the best of the writers in Nashville come to L.A. to write pop songs and don't have success at it. And, you know, it's kind of your first thing.

Do you think that hurt people taking you seriously as a country artist because you had already dabbled in pop as a writer? I think it definitely made Nashville, like the people of Nashville, like very confused. It was more confused. I don't think they were just like, wait, so what are you doing? Like, are you a pop writer? Like, but you live here. But some of your songs sound like you should be singing them.

So like, do you want to be an artist? Like, everybody in this town was just like, Ingrid Andrews is a mystery. We know nothing. Which to me, I sort of liked because I think Nashville can be very, it used to be. It's getting better, but people needed you to fit in a box so they knew, like, where to put you.

And I never wanted that. for myself. I was like, I'm, I don't, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I like going out there and writing to tracks and like figuring it out and not having to sing about beer in trucks. And then I like coming back here and I like writing emotional songs that are like smart in our country, but they're not your typical, like what you want. Like, I just want to be able to do what I want. So that was sort of the, the whole mindset for me of just like, I think people finally realized when I decided to be an artist. They're like, oh, okay, like,

you've had the same sound this whole time. It's just now starting to become more acceptable. That's an interesting anecdote. You know, the industry has opened up more to women in the last couple years than they had in, you know, 10, 15 years. Do you, you know, how do you know, how do you feel about being a woman in in country music now having been through you know you've been in Nashville for I don't know how many years but long enough that you were there before

you know this recent I want to even say resurgence like it's a brand new kind of thing you know I mean right what is it you know what's it like to be female in country music um I guess to me It's, I am such a logical person. It just sometimes doesn't make sense to me why it's taken so long for women to be recognized in country music since a very large portion of the country demographic is women. So I think sometimes it gets a little frustrating because I think people still have like a, a, you know, a scared mindset of just like, let's just play it safe. Keep putting out songs about, you know, you look great girl tonight, under the moon, you know.

Like, let's just keep using those songs because they work. So sometimes it gets frustrating when you try to push the boundaries, especially as a female, because people are like, well, you're not singing about the things that everybody loves, you know. But I think it's, I feel lucky to have decided to be an artist during this upswing of women in country. Because I think people are realizing that I don't, I think people want to hear about emotional things and things from a woman's perspective and also be challenged and not just give you like some really easy concept to grasp. Like I think people are realizing like, no, people. you know, they're realizing that they've been underestimating people for a while.

Yeah, the Grammys have, you know, over the last three years, really when, you know, in Portnow, the Grammys had said that there's something like, you know, well, why aren't women more recognized? And this was the year that Lord wasn't allowed to perform for album of the year because they wanted to have Sting and Shaggy do three segments on TV instead of having, Lord and people asked and he said something about well women should try harder and that was basically the end of his tenure as president of the Grammy and then you know back forward to this year and the entire rock category are all women for the first time you know you have you know since then you have you have Casey Musgraves winning all the awards and you have you know what Marin's done and what

what you guys are writing about are more, it's more interesting than what you get from a lot of the hit male writers. And the renegades in all of these genres are women. But it's kind of across the board. It's almost not even just country. It's like if you look at rock and you look at country and then you look at even hip hop and you look at Megan Lee Salian and all these, It's like it's across the board women are coming out with better music. Is it because people are now listening to the music or is it that women are enabled or encouraged or is it an environmental thing that creates an environment where people, where women can start releasing music that is just better than what these guys are doing?

I mean, what is it? I honestly, just from a consumer perspective, I just think that their music is just better. Like, I don't even view it as a gender thing at this point because there's a lot of music out there that I'm just like, why is, why is this a thing? But I will say that, like, I think women, I think we've had to find our thing and what we're good at and figure it out. We almost had to like work harder to get there because we can't just put out a song about margaritas and expect people to like lose their minds over it because there are already songs out there about that by dudes that are huge, you know? And it's like, okay, well, what can we do that's different?

So I think we had to work harder and smarter to figure it out and now it's just like the rest is history. like I think especially like with Megan and Cardi like they found their thing you know and they were and same with Casey same with Marin like everybody's just finding their thing and I think that's what makes the music that women have been putting out a little more standout for sure I'm smiling and when when you said margaritas because you know you were just telling a story about whale watch being on camels ordering skinny margages in Spanish. And so I was like, I mean, I don't know if there's a country song and whale watching riding camels in Cabo, ordering a margarita with minimal Spanish like capabilities. But I feel like you're like, right, there's something there.

Oh, for sure. Very relatable. Yeah. If I'm going to write about margaritas, I'm going to write about it while riding a camel watching whales. but this must be the weirdest segment of this podcast and we don't have to explain that. A lot of your co-writers, looking at the stuff that is not your artistry, you know, when it's BB Rexa, and I know that you now have songs with Dove and with

Hey Violet and, you know, it's Lauren Jerichie. It's women as co-writers. Do you write with men and are those songs that just either have happened or have not happened? I mean, is it, do you write with men? Do you have collaborators or do you work with any artists that are not female? Um, I mean, not really. I think, I mean, maybe some boy. band stuff, but for me, it's just, it's, I don't know, I can only add so much, I think,

sometimes to, you know, especially men in country. Like, I've collared with a few male artists, but it's just so specific on what they are comfortable talking about, and I always want to, like, push the limit somehow. And I think that makes some, not all, but most men uncomfortable. So at least in Nashville, like, it's pretty slim as far as artists go. But a lot of my songwriting people that are my go-toes are male. But, yeah, as far as artists-wise, I think I relate more to female artists for sure. It's weird. It's like there's such a fear of vulnerability from country male artists.

And in an era where somebody said this, to me where vulnerability is the is the currency of social media. Yes, it is. If that's the case, then that also is a reason why

the stagnation in male music and rock and in country would tend to not be vulnerable, why they continue to release the same music and why the female music is so much more exciting because there's

of vulnerability and willing to go places that you that might be dangerous to write about. Yeah, definitely. I can imagine, you know, in Nashville it would feel that way. When, okay, more hearts than mine is one of those lyrics where you do the hook thing. The twist, the hook thing, yep. You got foothills in there. So, I mean, when you talk about, you know, you need to have.

something like that, you know? Yeah. Got the visuals. Yeah. Is that the... Did you know when you were done with that song that that was the song, that it was, that that was going to be the song that people would get to know you by? It feels like if I wrote that song, I would be knocking on all of the doors to be like,

this is the, like, have you got all heard this song that I wrote? have you heard this i'm amazing um no i feel like i mean i i didn't know it would be the song because you know you have people being like country radio doesn't want ballads um so i didn't think that it would be i knew it was a really well-written song um and i loved that it was so personal to me but that's also why I didn't think that it would be super relatable because I do get so specific in the verses and the chorus. Like, it's all very specific to my family. And so part of me was like, maybe not everybody can relate to this, but I was wrong. Yeah, why do you think that people can relate to it? I think because people can, there's a place for everybody in that song. Like,

Like, whether it's, you know, if you hear it and you're a dad, you're like, oh, that's me. Or if you hear it and you're a mom, you're like, that's me. Or if you're a sister or anybody, like, you can hear yourself in that scenario. And I think even if you don't drink whiskey over ice, like you still are just like, yeah, I would, you know, I just hear, I've been in that situation before. So I think that's what took it to that next level. Yeah, I don't think it's even about the, it's not really about the, the specifics somehow are really inviting. But yeah, you paint the picture of a dad that's a guy's guy. You know, most of us have a dad that's a man's man.

You know, that's how we grew up thinking of them, even if they're not. Right. Exactly. I think you should make me a co-writer on that in fact of the fact. Totally. At least invite me to the room next time you have that concept. Just be like, hey, man, we should. Totally. I just finish the song.

It's really good. You should come and put your name on this. Tell me what good friends do. I agree. It's the least I can do for you having me out in this podcast. Exactly. Okay, so we're on the same page now. That's good.

To be nominated for CMAs and to be nominated, for CMTs and Grammys all have different meanings and especially for somebody who's lived in different parts of the country who's listened to all different kinds of music what is the

how do you feel when you get a nomination I know that the Grammys are pending and I'm not sure of you know we'll see when the Grammys actually end up but we're assuming that they'll you know We don't know if we'll have this out before or after it. Totally.

It's obviously amazing to get nominated for anything. To get nominated for all of these things is a whole other thing. What is the difference for somebody when you find out about one versus the other? Do they all have different meanings to you? Is it all the same thing? What does it mean? I think for the country nominations for the CMT or CMA, Those means something different to me because it's more of a Nashville community type of thing,

which is its own thing separate from, I think, like, the music industry as a whole. Just because, you know, country music can be so specific on what they think is country and if you're working or not and all this stuff. So to me, it's more of like a validation from the Nashville community that means a lot to me because it's scary pushing boundaries because people. can shut you down so quick, you know, especially, especially in country music, because everybody has their own specific thing of like what they think it is. And so to me, those were, those were special in the way of people just being like, yeah, like, you're doing it. Like, we appreciate you expanding the genre. And then for the Grammys, it's just, those are just things that I've, like, wanted since I got into music. So to me, that's more like a personal win because to me is just like, yeah, like you did the thing,

the thing that you've wanted to do. So way to go you. So Grammys are different in that way. And yeah, it's just kind of mind-blowing. Getting nominated. First of all, there's a truth that people don't understand if they're not in the music. and they've never been nominated for anything. But it really is such an honor to be nominated.

And if you've ever been fortunate enough to be in the room where people actually vote on the nominations, then you really understand because those people are often jaded haters from the music industry. So it is really hard to get nominated. It's hard to get nominated if you're new and it's hard to get nominated for different.

you got you know country song an album but also best new artists that's that's the weird one to me I'm like how did I get there I'm like with Megan the stallion I'm like Jesus dude that is the crazy that's so crazy it is it is insane I know this is like it is insane to get nominated for anything but to get best new music as a country artist what? I have no, I just, I still can't wrap my head around it, to be honest. I'm trying to play it cool, but I'm just like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, I don't know.

It just, it's mind-blowing to me. I'm like, how, how did we get here? I can't wait to, you know, you're, uh, I don't know what they're doing in person or what they're going to send to your house, but, you know, when you go and you have, you'll have, like this, this, like, medallion thing that's, I just got it. Did, you did. Okay, cool. Yes.

I hope that when you go to Santa's pub next, you wear it while you think. On the carry, go up there and be like, I am allowed to curse because I have this medallion. Wear it underneath something so you're not like that person. But just when you just take a self, I mean, this probably, knowing Nashville is probably open, people are probably going and singing at Santa's, you know, and share. For sure. I'm sure they are. You know?

But next time when it opens. Just do that. Just for me as, as, you know, just do that. I will. That's a good moment for a Grammy nominee to be, I'm at Santa's and this is full circle, you know? Yep. Yep.

I will. That's actually a great idea. Yeah, you're welcome for that. All right. Let's go for five for five. I'm going to list five things and I want you to tell me, you know, something about these people or things. Okay. Let's start with Kara Diaguardi.

Spicy. Spicy human. She is a, like, fun fact about her or just how I describe that. Spicy is totally fun. Kara's, like, is brilliant. She's, she just makes the, she, I feel like she's, she's part of the Freemasons and makes the world go round. She really is.

She, like, does, she has, like, 15 different projects all happening at the same time and it's mind-blowing to me how she literally can get everything done. It's crazy. This is a wider one, but I put female pop stars because Charlie XX and Fletcher and Beebe are these like really interesting, outlandish. Totally. Pop stars. So I put female pop star. Do I have to pick one? No, no, no, just like, I don't know. I don't even know how to describe these women. I just feel like there's some way to describe them that I don't know. Yeah, it's like outsider pop.

It's, um, I don't know. It's almost like edge, edge, edgy pop maybe. Because they just, I like, I prefer working with women like them because they are down to try like whatever. Like, they just want to express themselves exactly how they want to instead of, like, having to blend into whatever currently is cool. I feel like Julia Michaels, to me, is that as well, like the edge pop. I love Julia. All right.

Me too. I put female country stars because they're now your, they're also your peers. But I know we talked about, you know, that this. movement in country music that's really exciting. So I put female country stars. Yes, Casey, Musgraves, Marin, who else is moving the dial? I mean, there's a lot of them, but I think that there are certain ones that are really moving the dial. And even, you know, Miranda Lambert's been like, you know, like kind of... She's been moving the dial since day one. Like she is such a badass and always will be.

Yeah, she's, she's incredible. I put Michael Pollock. Oh, I miss him. He is, he is just a brilliant little, little man who is so good at piano. Like, if anybody is, he, everyone needs to see him play. He's just incredible. And he's just so smart and neurotic. I love him. He's like the yin to my yang because I'm such of like free spiritive like no plans.

Like let's just wing it and you know he's not that way at all. So we balance each other out extremely well. And I was his first co-write. Crazy. That's a pretty exciting co-write. Shout out to Michael. The guy's killing it and he's a good human and good co-writer. And last but not least, I have, and this is, you can go by each one if you want, but I just put your family. Oh, my family. Well, very, very Swedish names as we discussed. But they definitely inspired more hearts than mine. Like, we're all very close.

And even though we're all spread out, like we, you know, that song is very true to form because they, there are a lot of us. There are seven of us total. So they're very easy to write about for sure. Well, thank you for doing this podcast. I mean, I know that this is only going to be your first time on this podcast, but as we've been doing it now weekly, I get the feeling you'll be back on as you have more albums come out.

Yes, I would love that. It's cool. I mean, because, you know, I remember, seeing your name and be, ah, yeah, that must be a Swedish writer. And it was totally those guys. And then as you release music,

it was like, oh, this is, this is insane. This is phenomenal songwriting. Like, the craft is wonderful. You should be, like, incredibly proud of that. Like, that's what I was saying. If I wrote that song, I feel like I'd knock on all of my neighbor's doors and just,

you guys got to hear this song I wrote. I mean, the whole album's obviously good. You don't get nominated by accident, and you've earned all of it, and the hustle that you've put in to get this far is incredible, but it's only, this is chapter one. Which is crazy to think. But, yeah, I feel like that's,

that's why I'm so glad that I was a songwriter first, because I feel like you can, once you know, roughly, because we never really officially know what we're doing, all the time. But like once you vaguely know like how to structure a song, like you can do it the rest of your life, which is really, you know, something that not everybody can say. So good for us for being songwriters. That just made me like kind of like emotional. It's true. It's like you have this skill set that you've developed that will stick with you one way or the other. It's hard to shake it completely. I don't think, yeah, I don't think it will ever, it never goes away. Even if you don't

write for a while and you get back and you're just like, I have no idea how to write a song, somehow you do. Amazing. Well, thank you. Of course. I appreciate you. I hope we get to actually hang in person and write something. I'll work on some concepts for you, some twisty concepts.

Absolutely. I'm into it. Thanks for listening to this episode of Anne the Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website and the writer is.com if you like what we're doing

please subscribe to us you can also like us on Facebook and Twitter Anne the Writer Is is produced by Joe London edited by Miles Bergsmah and published by Big Deal music a special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.