And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 123: Alex Gaskarth and Jack Barakat (All Time Low)

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

Throughout a catalog streamed nearly half-a-billion times and highlighted by two gold albums, two gold singles, and a platinum single, today’s guests perennially raised the bar for both pop and punk. Since 2003, the group notched five straight Top 10 entries on the Billboard Top 200, spanning the gold-certified Nothing Personal [2009], Dirty Work [2011], Future Hearts [2015], and Last Young Renegade [2017]. The latter attracted tastemaker acclaim from the likes of Rolling Stone, Paste, and more as the band canvassed the world, headlining arenas on three continents. 2019 saw them celebrate Nothing Personal with a string of sold-out shows and a re-recorded liveperformance of the album at RedBull Studios. The record’s influence remained prevalent with Rock Sound citing its impact on Fall Out Boy, 5 Seconds of Summer, and more. Along the way, they achieved honors such as “Album of the Year” at both the Alternative Press Music Awards for Dirty Work and Rock Sound Awards for Last Young Renegade. After nearly two decades together, they rekindled the spark they first ignited in a Baltimore basement on their 2020 eighth full-length studio album, Wake Up, Sunshine [Fueled By Ramen]. These four lifelong friends—Alex Gaskarth [lead vocals, guitar], Jack Barakat [lead guitar, backing vocals], Zack Merrick [bass, backing vocals], and Rian Dawson [drums]—walked into a tiny room, plugged in, and turned up with the same spirit, but a little more wisdom, a lot more experience, and proficiency gained by performing to millions worldwide. As a result, they delivered a dynamic body of work at the apex of pop punk prowess, rock energy, and genre-busting adventurousness. And The Writer Is… Alex and Jack of All Time Low!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. www.organtanthor is.com. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's alt rock stars have been writing hits since they joined together almost two decades ago.

Like, their band is old enough to go to college. Success did not come easy, however. They've really put in the dirty work to get where they are today. With eight albums, billions of streams, platinum and gold singles, countless tours, and too many bras thrown on stage to count, these guys have really proven that it was never a phase, mom. It's a lifestyle. These guys aren't just Warped Tour Legends.

They're also great collaborators. That's why they've thrived for so long. And the writer is, are, my friend. Alex Gasgart and Jack Barrackat of all-time low. Yes. Lively done.

Live for the intros. Strong read. I read slowly because I'm a terrible reader. And I feel like the more dramatic I make it, the slower I can be. And then I make fewer mistakes. You know, I have a tendency when reading like a script back or like a prompter or something,

I read way too fast. Anytime I do like radio liners or anything like that, I usually get notes back from people being like, hey, can you chill out a little bit? It's usually, because I bang them out in the morning, and I've had a coffee, and my heart's pumping, and my blood's going, and I'm just like, let's hammer these out. But yeah, I like your pace.

You got a good pace. What would your liner be if we were a radio station? What would it sound like? Ooh. It's always like a really, generic line, but then it's like, but make it your own in brackets at the end. And usually I just read that out

loud. Just make it your own. Hey, this is Alex Gascarth from all time low and you're listening to, and the writer is. Ross Gole is and the writer is. But make it your own. But make it your own. Okay, so I obviously know both of you guys pretty well,

but the rest of the world may not. So let's pretend like I don't know you guys really well. Sure. Usually we have sort of one at a time, but you guys what's your the from each person do like a cliff snows

of life before you guys met you know to when you guys met I just that way we can get a little bit of each of your histories Alex you go first tell me about you know birth to all time low

sure so I was born in the UK my dad worked in high-fi and my my mom took real good care of me and made sure that I achieved all my dreams as a young boy. And we moved to the States for my dad's work when I was seven. Then I went to private school for many years and then switched to public school. And that's where I met Jack, my first year in eighth grade.

And we sort of hit it off real quick. We had like really similar taste in a lot of music and just kind of liked doing hood rat stuff with our friends and so we sort of we matched up quickly and um what is hood rat stuff I have no idea

honestly we used to take skateboard around the suburbs and like think we were doing I couldn't skateboard though so I would just carry one with me you know how there was always the kid who just would have just have he had to have one with him

but yeah we would just hang outside movie theaters with skateboards and get in the trouble man yeah usually it was just being asked to leave for loitering too much Jack, were you born in eighth grade? I was, yeah, so when Alex met me, that was my first year on earth. Super advanced.

No, but I actually was born in Lebanon, and I was born in outside Beirut in 88 when their war was happening. So my parents literally, my mom, like, fled a war with, like, me as a baby in her arms and took us to Baltimore so we could have a better life. And so I grew up in Baltimore. And when Alex got asked to leave private school in eighth grade, I didn't get asked to leave. Don't, that's revisionist history. I was a public school kid.

And Alex, Alex came into our school in eighth grade. And pretty early on, yeah, we just connected on music. He introduced me to a lot of different types of music, as I did with him as well. And then we started a band. Both of you guys are immigrants. We are. We are. do you think that that had something to do with you guys connecting?

I think so because from an early age and when we first started hanging out, our parents also connected and became pretty close friends. So I think there was an aspect within both of our families of having a shared common experience and that got all of us closer in general. So, you know, we Jack and I looked out for each other and became really close friends.

And I think to a larger extent, our families did that for one another as well. and they kind of bonded over, you know, very different walks of life and how we got to the States were different circumstances. But, you know, ultimately, yeah, I think the families kind of came together because of that common understanding. Most people who end up being friends in junior high

who want to be, or I guess, or eighth grade, I guess is still junior high, you know, most people who want to start bands, the bands usually don't become accurate. actual bands. When was it that you first realized that you guys actually make good music together? Or are you still figuring that? Yeah, I was still wondering.

No, we, I think for us it was there were a lot of these gradual little moments. Like there was never in my mind, like this one big breakout moment where we went, aha, we're a real band. I think for many, many years we felt like we were just sort of realizing things at our own pace and discovering who we were as musicians and artists and writers. And, you know, I think there were stepping stones. When we were first together and, like, our band was kind of fully forming in high school. That's when we met Ryan.

That's when we met Zach. And we kind of came together and picked a band name and actually started booking some shows locally and writing our own songs and putting together, like, trying to record our own EPs. And eventually we did a full-length kind of unsigned. And all of that stuff took place through the four years that we were in high school. And I think, you know, there were moments in there where I think it went from being like, okay, we're sort of this basement DIY pseudo cover band kind of writing our own music to transitioning into like, oh, there's actually a scene forming around our band now in the Baltimore area.

And there were a bunch of other great bands as well. You know, there was a band called Adelphi. There was a band called Underscore. And, you know, they all sort of had these like record deals at the time that kind of elevated the whole scene and had all these local bands kind of chasing the dream. This is sort of runoff even from, you know, Baltimore has this strange history of music where I think people overlook Baltimore,

but there's a huge alternative rock scene that ended up coming out of there, obviously notably like Good Charlotte and stuff. There's a lot of big bands that have come out of Baltimore. Why Baltimore? You know what? You know I was going to say, because when Alex started talking about it,

it reminded me, right around when we started playing music, the New Jersey, like, drive-through records scene was becoming, like, a really big thing. And it bled a little bit down into Baltimore, Maryland. You know, Adelphi,

one of the bands we grew up playing would sign the drive-through records, like Alex said. So I think we were kind of in this cool, unique position where we were kind of being driven by all these other bands around us who were pretty good.

You know, we weren't, like, there was a strong music scene in Baltimore. And I think it just kind of drove us into wanting to be better and writing those bands. Yeah, we were seeing those bands do it and very much do it on their own terms is how it came across. You know, it was a very DIY kind of approach to music and seeing bands like My Chemical Romance, taking back Sunday elevate the way they did. It kind of, and it was only, you know, it was next door.

It was just over in New Jersey. And so like it inspired us to want to do that, to create a scene locally for ourselves. and we quickly saw it go from being church halls filled with maybe 50 kids to real venues in the Baltimore area filled with a thousand kids and to have that happen

before you've even graduated high school really back to your original question that really validated us at first and made us feel like hey there's something here that's not just this isn't just a weekend thing we have a shot at this and I think it was right around the time

that music and music networking was happening as well online. You know, MySpace and getting MySpace music profiles and pure volume, that all started bubbling. And that was a huge part of it as well, because we could see these things happening in adjacent cities to ours. And then we started reaching out to those bands and trading shows and saying like, hey, you come down and play this show at our church hall with us, and then we'll come up and do one in Jersey. And, you know, that was a really validating thing. I think that's when labels started taking notice of like, oh, these kids are like putting themselves in a van and

driving themselves to these other places. Is it because the other bands... Sorry, I was not to interrupt, is it because the other bands that you said that, you kind of grew up with, they're all getting record deals. So did you even know when you're saying labels are starting to notice,

that kind of means nothing to somebody who's not in New York or L.A. Unless, you know, like what does that mean that somebody from a label, a label, notice you in your shoes there that means

that can't mean what it means now. We had no idea what it meant. We just knew we wanted to be signed. We just knew that quote unquote real artists and real bands had record deals. So at the time it was like that's obviously what we need to do. We need to sign a deal.

And I think it was like Fred from Triple Crown called, like somehow got my number and called me and I was like in disbelief that someone from a label was calling me. And then it trickled over to like John Janick at Fuel by Rahman. And then it was, you know, Hopeless Records started kind of, you know, sniffing around. And this was all around the time that we had just recorded a full length ourselves.

You know, we sort of, yeah, kind of DIYed it with a local producer. And yeah, there were just some little things that were starting to bubble under the surface that got some people paying attention. The local producer. Who's the local producer? His name is Paul Levitt, and he's a very, very talented man. We worked with him actually with Matt Squire. on our first full-length album as well.

Oh, that's so crazy. So when you got the deal, you brought him along with you? In a way. Yeah, it was interesting. So Matt Squire, for those who don't know, at the time was doing the first panic of the disco record. And the reason why he got the panic at a disco record

was because he had just done the receiving end of Sirens record. And Pete Wentz heard that record. It was like, oh, my God, this is incredible. and kind of, you know, sent panic, you know, to Matt Squire to Baltimore to do this, to do their first full length. And so Squire did panic. And then he got into boys like girls and cues what we aim for, all bands who kind of came up at the same time as us. So it all was, and so went around when that time was when that was happening, Paul Levitt and

Squire knew each other. So it was kind of cool of Squire to bring on Paul Levitt, you know, kind of made us feel more comfortable because we were, yes, we're going with a much bigger producer, but we had Paul Levitt engineering it and keeping it a little bit, you know, keeping us in familiar territory. Yeah. The, if you're a kid now, you're probably getting a computer as your first instrument. For sure. And I feel like you guys are part of the last generation of sort of this natural bands.

You know, I don't know how you would describe it, but like real like people who play instruments who get together to play songs together. what's the difference of the environment then versus now for bands? Well, I think it's just that. It's as you described it. We were just kids, I would go over to Jack's house after school and I would bring my guitar and we would plug into his amps

and just turn him up real loud and play along to like the CD player. And that was the first version of our band. You know what I mean? It wasn't, you know, and now I think the big difference is you can be a kid in your room with a computer

and whether or not you know how to play an instrument makes something that sounds pretty damn good you know song-wise and it's I think the difference was like we needed some people around us to kind of help us get there

you know we needed Paul Levitt as a producer locally to kind of back us and record us and let us get in his room and play our songs and teach us what a chorus is before we could really hone our sound, whereas now you can kind of do all that experimentation by yourself, you know, before you even launch anything. That teaching from somebody who said that this is what a chorus is,

I think we all remember who that first producer is who kind of says, no, you could put this over here and make this verse over here, or shorten this verse, or add this little part here, bridge or pre-course or whatever it is. And you don't think of it, because we all think we know. But if you're not a prodigy who just knows at 14 and we can list those people, you actually have to learn it from somebody. And you trust those people who teach you.

You guys must have been in the room with the right people at that time. Yeah, and that evolution, sorry, I was just going to say, that evolution happened very naturally between us connecting with Paul and then going in with Matt Squire right after, it was sort of this like, we were graduating as we went. You know, like Paul, I think was great because he sort of embraced our young, natural, raw energy and the things that we were putting out there, he would record. And he would, you know, obviously he was producing, he was giving suggestions. But really, it was when we hit the studio with Matt Squire that we had our first experience with someone that went like, that's not a

chorus. That's a bridge. That's your bridge. You know, you need, like, We need to tweak this and make the chorus feel like a chorus. And the first time that we all went, hey, fuck you, man. Like, don't change our art. But also, at the same time, like, oh, we listened. We listened. You know what I mean? It was that simultaneous thing of being, like, having to strip back your ego and be like,

he's right. I don't know what I'm doing because I'm 17. And I don't have much experience doing this. And we should listen to the producer. But, yeah, I mean, it was really the time that he gave us some solid direction. and we actually learn from that. Do you know what's super interesting, Alex? That's a great point, is we can go back and listen to our first record with Squire is called So Wrong, It's Right?

We have all the demos that we came into the studio with, the recordings of those. So we can kind of go back and see what he did to the songs to make them better. And like Alex said, like a song, like a chorus is actually, you used to be like, didn't exist. And the chorus was the bridge. And he'd be like, that's not a chorus. Like that's a cool part. but it's not reflecting the message of the song enough to be an actual core. And that's stuff that it's cool to be able to go back and hear what was different.

It's interesting because I think back and it's like almost our writing back then, especially with my melodies and lyrics, it was very stream of consciousness. It was less about figuring out parts and like, does the chorus feel like a chorus and things like that? It was kind of just however it flowed off the tongue. And so, you know, sometimes it worked out and sometimes more often. and the knot, it didn't. It just sounded like me rambling. And so that's where like we really started to dig in and kind of refine that.

And it was, you know, it was definitely the first moment in my experience where it clicked. And I went, okay, I'm starting to see, you know, these bricks and how you're supposed to kind of lay them together. The parts really, you know, we talk obviously a lot about song math and we talk about all this, you know, symmetry and whatnot. And what that does is it raises the batting average. It's not that you can't stream a conscious write something brilliant. You just have to write a whole lot more of them to land on something that happens to fit the rules. You can write an average song pretty easily if you know the math. It's hard to write a hit song.

But it's easy to write, you know, an average song. And when you're stream of conscious, it's almost really, it's really, maybe it's still hard to write a hit song, but it's really easy to write a bad song. Sure. Do you know what I mean? When it's just stream of consciousness, because then you don't even know what the sections are.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, you get confused, yeah. You can make a mess much easier than you can put something together that feels cohesive and planned. out. I've written with you guys a couple times in different phases and you guys are really good collaborators. So you guys learned along the way. Was it that experience from the beginning with Squire? Do you think that did that inspire you to keep diving in more? Or is it that every time

you have a session, you learn something new? I mean, I think you always take something away from a new session with new people. There's always something to be learned and everybody brings their own skill set and their own set of tricks to the table, which I've always really valued. It's funny, going back to that same record, so wrong it's right, that was actually the first time I was encouraged to go and do a co-write. And coming from this sort of like pseudo, quote unquote punk pop punk scene for, I remember at the time feeling very like off put by it and being like, no, this isn't like, this is going to kill my credibility if I'm not the sole songwriter and we didn't do this as a band. And it was like so quickly did I then realize like, no, like,

Like the heart of music is collaboration. And it was that record. It was my first experience. I went up to New York and worked with Sam Hollander and Dave Katz. And, you know, they were working out of the crush slash ozone offices at the time. And, you know, it was really cool. We ended up writing a song that made the album, Hollywood, You Turn Me On. And it was, you know, a foray into that world of people that people that,

me learning that there were people out there that wrote songs for a living. And that opened up a whole world for me because instantly I was transported to the other side of this thing where I was like, oh man, that's really cool. And they really know what they're doing. We didn't even know that songwriters existed. You know what I mean? That like wasn't a thing.

And we were all 18 years old. We were young. But yeah, it was a really cool experience because I remember Alex sending me the song after that trip and I was like, holy crap. This is like, you know, we were writing good music at a time, but there's something about like the melodies and the song structure that felt really strong about that song.

And I thought even that day alone had elevated Alex as a writer. He'd learned so much, you know, just from that. You guys got signed to Hopeless Records just taking another step backwards in 2006. That's like, I don't know, weren't you guys like seniors or? Yeah. My mom signed that deal. I was 17. We were still in high school.

Yeah. We had our parents at the meeting And yeah, we were still, we had like, I think, four months of high school left before we were actually out and able to go on the road as a signed band. How does that help or stunt the growth of a 17-year-old? I would say, I mean, we did the majority of our growing up from that point on tour.

So, you know, I don't know necessarily that it's stunted us as people, but it certainly changed the entire landscape of how we thought about the world, because from then on, our world was music and tour. And I'm sure, as you know, Ross, like our band from the get-go, the second we graduated high school, we were on tour. And that's always been our bread and butter as a band, and it's been our bread and butter for 10-plus years. But, like, you know, we did our formative years.

We didn't go to college. We spent them in a van with each other, chasing the Warp Tour and various other tours at the time. Very old school looking back, but I wouldn't change it for sure. If you guys met a 17-year-old who was about to sign a record deal, what would you tell them? I always think back to if I could give myself a few words of advice back then. I mean, one big one, and it kind of sounds a little bit trite when you say it out loud now. But I would definitely encourage myself to stick to my guns a little bit more.

there were times throughout the course of this band where I think we were so impressionable and we were always chomping at the bit to do the right thing and take the next step that was the right next step and so we looked outward for a lot of those things tell us what to do, tell us how to do this

tell us how to elevate this thing and sometimes that works but a lot of the time because you're the artist and because it's your vision and ultimately while we were were being directed and shaped by people as we grew, the vision was us, and it was always us. And I think sometimes it's easy as an artist to let that get clouded or to forget that along the way. And so I think I would have told all four of us to like stick to your guns

a little more and trust yourselves about what you want all-time low to be. If someone is approaching you at, you know, 17, 18 years old and likes your music and wants to take you to the next level, there's a reason why they're coming to you because they like your music. You're good, you're talented, you have a good eye, you have a vision. There's something there. So if you change that for something else, then you can lose a lot, you know? So Wrong It's Right is the first full-length album after the deal.

And it goes gold. And, you know, Dear Maria Comey is a big record. do you start believing your own hype? No, because at the time none of those things had substantiated. We were not, the record did not go gold back then. The single did not go, I think it's double platinum now, but it did not happen back then either.

You know, what's crazy about that album and the trajectory of this band, and we'll get to that later, I'm sure, but like it has been a slow burn in a lot of ways. There have been a lot of things that have happened and developed and grown over time. And so, you know, back then it was really, we were building. We were just building.

We were, you know, we put that album out, and we put an EP out before that. But we put that full length out. And that was really the time that we were finally getting some real tours in front of some bigger crowds. And people were starting to take notice. But we absolutely did not even know to believe the hype because we didn't really know the hype was there. You know, there was no metric at the time for that.

We weren't topping charts. We didn't have a ton of radio at the time. The record was selling well, but it wasn't like doing astronomical numbers. So it's like we just kind of sat back and got to work. That's what it felt like for us, I think. At that time you start touring with Sunny before he's Skrillex. It seems like there's this really cool thing about people

who are in bands who end up becoming writers, producers, there's a long history of, you know, every song already worked with has probably been in a band at some point. Yeah. That's such a unique trajectory

from him being sunny to Scrillix. Yeah. I mean, I'll never forget. We were on, I think it was maybe the first year that we did Warb Tour. He was fronting from first to last. And I think it might have been the last tour that they did together, or one of the last, because he lost his voice pretty

badly at the time. And it was like, you know, that happened. And then maybe a year later, we did this tour where Sonny came out and he was doing a solo thing. And it was this electronic, very vibey, kind of dancing. Almost like nine inch nailsy. Yeah, but it wasn't, it was not, it had not found its, it's home and like dubstep yet. It wasn't like, it was like he was fleshing it out in his head, but doing it live in front of people. And it was really interesting to see because you could tell there was sort of this like transformation happening in him. Yeah, and like, you know, probably a year after that tour,

he was Skrillex and he was like the biggest thing in the world. On that tour, he played us, he played us like early Skrillix music. And it was at that point I'd never heard Dubstep. And it was a whole, it was a genre that didn't exist. So I was very confused, to be honest. I was like, what am I listening to? You know what I mean? It was like it was so different from what I was.

It existed, but it was so far from our world that it was just, you know, we had no idea. It was super cool. I could tell he's very talented but I couldn't understand the music and then it turned into

what it did and I was like holy crap I guess that's why I'm not Skrillix is what I'm saying I do have a note in here that says young Kelly Fox

attended that tour in Arizona yeah so I mean Kelly Fox for people people I have she runs my publishing company with me

and she actually had a few questions for you guys and so I I figure that now's a good time to bring in the Kelly Fox segment because we're talking about. She's, she has a few things. She did say first, thanks for letting me crowd surf in a blazer in my late 20s to songs I listened to when I was 17. I love that.

She does appreciate that. I did watch her crowd surf last at our last Fonda show. I was dying so good. Oh, my God, yes. But she did have some, so she had one question that I like. She said, what song from your entire discography do you feel made the biggest impact on you as a writer? Made the biggest impact as a writer? I think this is a tough one to answer, but I always rewind back to our album, Nothing Personal,

which is the one that followed so wrong, it's right. There was a lot more collaboration in co-writing on that record. We actually did that record with multiple producers as well. it was the first time I worked with Butch Walker and like kind of learned his process and we wrote damned if I do you, damned if I don't, which went on to be at the time kind of our most successful song commercially.

And my takeaways from the experience with him were so valuable because it was like he's sort of this perfect encapsulation of doing it your own way, but doing it right and finding success in that. But you know, doing it without trying to hard to fit some kind of mold. And it was a big thing because, you know, at the time when you're having like an increasing and increasing level of success, you sort of, it gets hard not to

want to chase things. And there's a bit of a dangerous game that you play when you chase because obviously you can chase a sound that's working, you can chase a thing, but does it come at the sacrifice or the detriment of your quote, I hate to use this term, but like your brand or what people know your band for? And then it's kind of, you're always in this sort of like ebbing and flowing juxtaposition between, you know, whether or not you're selling out your core in order to chase this thing or whether you're growing your music by going that direction. And Butch really taught me that there is a middle ground and a happy way to kind of try and do that. And yeah, so I probably damned if I do, damned if I don't, or maybe weightless because of

how at the time sort of like it took some elements that we'd never brought into our music before, but still married that with kind of the ethos of like fast-paced, loud, pop punk and blended those two things that I think that song's had a lot of staying power in our career. Jack, what about you? My writing journey is a lot different than Alex's because mine started not the long ago, maybe like a year and a half ago when I first met with you. And so for me, I'm going to have to say monsters because it's not because of the success of the song. This was even way before the song had come out. It was the first time that I had left a kind of, I guess a session,

We all were together. But at first time I'd left like a song session and been like, wow, I feel like I had a real part in, you know, I felt like I had contributed to the song in a way that I had never contributed before. For sure. And so, yeah, that, and in a band I was a part of, not just a song for someone else.

So it felt really good, and I think it changed the way. I think it gave me a little bit of confidence moving forward in songwriting. I love that. She also added, who's a songwriting? who's the assistant now? That's funny. I love her. God love her.

Okay, so, you know, you guys end up on TV, and we're going back to 2008. We're going back a little bit. You end up on TV, you guys, you know, this is still in like the building phase. You guys have a beef with Metro Station? No. No real beef.

We, we, we used to tease them for that song a little bit and I feel bad about it now to be completely Why? I don't know because it was just we were being bullies and it was kind of shitty Do you ever tell them that? Tell them what, that I feel bad?

Yeah, I guess you are right now. Yeah, you've heard it here first. No, I unfortunately, I haven't really been in touch with any of them in recent years and I don't know how I would get in touch with them but yeah, it's one of those things. It was like it started as a joke Then it kind of became like a joke with some resentment, I think, from them because we just

wouldn't let up on it. And then we forgot about it. And I don't know that sort of they did. And it just, you know, it kind of sucks. Considering how crazy beef used to be with bands, like, we were pretty, like, this is pretty mellow. Because I remember, like, growing up and watching, like, the VMA red carpids, like, there was, like, fights sometimes.

You know what I mean? Like, bands used to, like, really beef. And, like, we didn't, by the time we'd started doing, like, warp tour and all that stuff in like the mid to like the early 2006-down-7 like it stopped being cool to beef and it started being cool to like camaraderie was such a thing.

Yeah and this is a bigger thing too because like we kind of built our ethos around like I think of two bands when I when I think of how we came up it was kind of like the banter like our music was one thing and then our stage show and our banter was kind of another thing and we very much built that off of like seeing bands like Blink 1182 and Green Day

and no effects go out there and talk a bunch of shit and have a ton of fun and like say things that were a little bit off the wall or absurd or inappropriate or whatever. And we were very self-deprecating as well. And I think from that stem this idea of like we can sort of poke fun at people and no one will really get too hurt because we do it to ourselves too. But then over time I just think it like it wasn't really who we were anymore and we kind of outgrew it a little bit. And yeah, now I look back and like, were we just jerks? Probably.

It's a weird thing also. I mean, I guess when, you know, your formative years are on tour. tour with other bands doing whatever they're doing. And some of them, everyone's at a different point in their life. And you're communicating with, it's so hard to explain how small your life is when you go from high school to a touring band. And you could be in front of thousands and thousands and thousands of people annually and your life just seems like it gets smaller and smaller.

because the more you experience this stuff, the fewer people you have to share it with. It becomes just like really like tunnel vision life. Sure. It becomes isolating and it's like I think ultimately it's what brought our band closer together. Yeah. Because we became our own little family unit that looked out for one another and made sure everyone was kind of okay.

But yeah, you're absolutely right. Like it doesn't exactly broaden your horizons in terms of life experience because you're experiencing it through this hyper-focused pinpoint lens that most other people don't ever get to get a glimpse of. Why does your, why did your band figure it out? Like, I always make the joke that being in a band sucks. It's a pretty short joke. Yeah, I love that joke.

Pretty short joke. But, like, I think everyone has this assumption that you're on tour and, like, you're, like, doing warp tour and stuff. Like, this is so fun. And the bands always break up because it's fucking hard. Yeah. I think at the end of the day it is very difficult. It's very alienating. It removes you from any semblance of a normal life in a lot of ways. Why did you guys? At the same time, it's also like, for us, it was extremely rewarding at the same time because we felt this constant gradual growth.

And we all really genuinely were there for each other. So anytime there was sort of a downer or a moment that was kind of feeling, like, leaving us downtrodden, like we sort of said, you know, quitting, breaking up, it's not an option because if one of us goes, the band falls apart. kind of this never it was this thing of like this is family and there's no alternative like we have to see this too and and i think we're from an early age we understood that there were ebbs and flows to the whole thing there were going to be some low points and things that didn't work out and that you couldn't let those moments kind of define where you were overall in your career

because i think that's what sometimes breaks bands up they hit a cold cold spell uh and it it's hard to get over that hump um and we've always looked at it as like you know if we see stick to it and stay true to ourselves, you know, fingers crossed, a little bit of luck and everything, you know, we'll get there. I think you kind of touched on this earlier, Alex, is you said it was a gradual growth. And at the time of us coming up on Warp Tour and stuff was we'd see so many bands have a hit on Radio while still being on Warped Tour and kind of shoot up overnight and their crowds started getting bigger like the next day, literally overnight success.

And a lot of those bands don't exist anymore. And at the time, I remember hating them and being jealous and all that. And maybe it kind of broke them up because they couldn't, like, that's a lot to handle one night, the overnight success type of thing. And I feel like because we never really, you know, we constantly just grew a little bit, a little bit over time. And I think it kind of made us more prepared for what's to come. You know, everything was manageable because it wasn't like we woke up one day and we

couldn't leave our houses because we're the Beatles. You know what I mean? You guys. signed to Interscope at the, you know, 2009, 2010, something like that. And Dirty Work is really the album that kind of changes everything, at least as far as like outside of the world that, at least from my perspective, that's when I was like, oh yeah, people know who you guys are. It was like a lot of credit.

Did you recognize that it was having that kind of impact outside of, you know, your world? That feels like that's like the first time where it's like you're, The band just, I don't know, that feels like the turning point to me. Is it not? It's such an interesting, like, story to that cycle because we, you know, we got bought out. We signed to Interscope and it was a, I would say it was a tumultuous transition from our first label to Interscope in general because we still had records obligated to them. And, like, you know, an upstream is never an easy thing to, like, navigate. And so there was, there were aspects of it.

Like, we just wanted to get on and make our next. record we wanted to create, we wanted to continue the momentum of what the band was building. But behind the scenes, there was this sort of like a little bit of a haze that was like a bit more tense and melancholy because it was like, is this deal going to work out? Are we actually going to upstream? And we were thinking about all those things as we were trying to write songs for this next album that eventually came out. On top of that, it happened at a really tough time to go to Interscope because we signed there and then

as we made the album we were getting ready to put it out, Jimmy kind of took a step back and transitioned into beats and in doing so it took our A&R Luke with him and so there was a big shift in our team as well right as we were gearing up to put this album out so while it felt like we were poised to try and swing

big on this record in a mainstream sense quote-un-un- quote. Behind the scenes, there was a lot of shifting going on, and we didn't really know our place at the label right around the time that our record came out. It's a weird time, I think, for all bands, though. Like, that's really the, I feel like 2000, you know, you guys managed to survive maybe the hardest time for bands. you know, since like the 50s when bands were really starting to play together. It's a good, it's a good point, dude.

And I feel like I remember around 2011, 2012 is kind of when like rock stopped being on the radio. Like, like right before that, like, you know, there was, like, AFI was on the radio with December underground and Weezer was still being played on pop radio. And like there was this moment and it kind of like left around there. And like pop club, dance, music, hip hop, everything kind of took over pop radio and bands were kind of. left in the dust a little bit. Yeah. And it wasn't really until recently, you know, in the past couple years where guitar started coming back on radio.

I mean, I remember that process of making dirty work. And fingers crossed, right? I remember that process of making dirty work. And we were a guitar band. We're a four-piece pop rock band. And like, I remember being in the studio getting calls from, you know, A&Rs and creative and stuff like that on getting mixed notes and things. And it would always just be like, hey, can we make the drums sound like not drums?

can we bring the guitars down and things like that? And it was really like, I think it was when the band first almost suffered its identity crisis for the first time. Because it was like, how do we rock band without rock band? We were trying to figure out the math of like how to do this in the changing landscape of music and what was working at the time when we were supposed to be elevating ourselves to this kind of next tier of, you know, I guess mainstream success or whatever we were chasing at the time. And we were doing it in it. Few, sorry, interrupt, few bands figured it out around that time. And the thing that kind of stands out to me is like gives you hell by the All American Rejects.

Like a song like that was kind of like one of the only songs that was like sounded like a band that was on the radio. And, you know, we were still trying to figure out how to make that kind of sound, how to be like a relevant rock band. Yeah. And without, you know, without fully compromising what we were trying to do. And that just got really tricky. And again, with it was that, it was.

that fight and it was the struggle of like our team shifting around us as well and it just we eventually we just ended up saying we got to make the record we got to make and hope for the best and we fell back on touring once again like we knew that touring was was always going to be there for us so we just hit the road and I think we toured harder really in those years than we had ever toured before and maybe since like we really grounded out through that record cycle this is a probably a weird thing to bring up. But, you know, Alice, you get your first, you get your first cuts outside of,

outside of the band around this time. Mm-hmm. I guess, like, are you starting to aim at this point to write for other artists? Or was it just sort of, how do you end up starting to get cuts without naming the bands? Like, you start getting cuts.

I think I just, It was sort of right place, right time. And I think at this point, I had sort of become the main writer in our band. I was doing most of the, like, I was flying, traveling a lot, going to sessions. And so, you know, within the writing circles, I think it was kind of my name that was getting tossed into the hats. And, you know, I think there were just a few people. There were some producers out there and some writers out there that said, you know, this guy has something and his band is doing something. unique and that's when I started getting tapped to kind of like bring my influences into sessions.

And it was really interesting for me because I had never really aspired to do that. You know, my foray in the songwriting originated with this band and it was my focus was always this band. And that was kind of the first time I got a taste of like, okay, my writing can be applied to something else. And it was a really interesting time for me because I think, again, I really grew and took a turn at that point. and it was probably cool because you could you could write from you can write different types of music in different styles you weren't in the all-time

low box right this is a vulnerable question but I guess I'm curious what is it like to be in a band you know in all these cases where you start defining you know it's easier for the singer to write the songs period you know it's just always that way

you know like Jack how did how do you like you know, I'm glad that as, you know, since we first met a few years ago, like, it's cool to see you writing more and doing projects yourself. You know, for a band that's been together since eighth grade, what is it like for people to have different kinds of roles in the band? How do you deal with that communication? If I can just step on you for a second, Jack, I wanted to jump in because this kind of goes back to what you said a minute ago and I wanted to touch on it. it's like how we came back together and Jack became a more involved writer

in the recent songs and things like that. There was this, I noticed, and I think it started around dirty work and then onwards. The next two records after that, I don't want to get too far ahead, but it speaks to a bigger theme, especially of collaboration. I think behind the scenes,

there was definitely an air of like the, there was a, I don't want to say disinterest, but like, I was so invested because I was writing the songs and making the records and then we'd go out and spend two years touring and like

there was a bit of a noticeable like rift not rift but like there was an energy in the band of like because I was so heavily invested in the creative process and the other guys weren't they couldn't possibly be as in it as I was and that sometimes creates

a rub because you know when things go really well you know I think sometimes the boys were feeling disconnected from the success of things and when it was when it was not going well they were feeling either disconnected from the responsibility of it or like it was kind of getting i started to feel like man did i screw up like is this all on me for for us not having a hit right now or whatever you know and there i think in that you shoulder you shouldered a lot of the responsibility for sure right and it

starts to create this little bit of attention and like what was interesting about that and and where we ended up with our newest album and sort of jack coming back in a bigger way into the writing process and everything was it was like I think it was a very necessary step for this band to kind of circle back to our origins and our origins being the four of us in a basement writing and like whether it was me writing the lyrics or whoever was doing a more or less of the heavy lifting or whatever there was a really important piece of the puzzle missing and that was the fact that this band is a band and the four of us bring an energy to it and I think we strayed kind of far from that for a little while

and it took us kind of coming back together and refocusing to rekindle what this band is truly meant to be and I think a lot of things have to fall into place but I think it's a big part of the reason that we are seeing the success that we're seeing now

with a song like Monsters because there was just a different energy to it. Yeah. Jack, is that how you feel about it? No, no, well, that's really well said. And you kind of nailed it on you kind of nailed it on the head when you were like, you know, the three of us kind of not like lost interest, but we just didn't feel as invested in the music as much as we had in the past. And I'm sure it felt weird at the time. Looking back now, it feels, you know, kind of, that's how it was and it was and it's all good now. But at the time, I do remember, you know, Alex kind of being like, you know, why, why am I only one that cares right now? And not about the band, just about, you know, just the songs, just the actual like, you know, the music. And. And, and I do remember. And And so it was, I think, you know, I think it was really important and big for Alex to kind of like re-involve everyone again.

And I think that's, you know, it goes back to why when people ask why our band still together, I think a really important part is everyone is very comfortable with their role in the band. And I think that it's taken a lot of work to get here. You know, that's not just something that happens like overnight. Like, you're the bass player. You're just a drummer. You're just a guitar player. Like, no, we've had to kind of like, we're like a Rubik's Cube and like we're like turning it to try to figure out like what works and what makes everyone happy and comfortable. And that's, you know, it took years to get there, but now we're here. And roles evolve and they need to be redefined and those conversations need to be had. It's like any relationship really.

But it's like, you know, this band is like a long term, like a long lasting marriage. And, you know, every now and then you have to kind of like check back in and be like, is everybody happy with the way this dynamic works? and are we all on the same page? And truth be told, like, even, I don't even, I didn't know how to write songs during that time when Alex was doing a lot of the writing. I was in a lot of the sessions. I would just sit there and listen.

And I didn't, I don't think I had the confidence or even the knowledge of songwriting lyrically and melodically speaking to interject. And so I just sat in all the sessions and just kind of chilled and was like, oh, it's a really cool song. And it took, you know, I think it took a big life change and people around me like Kelly and Kevin Sweet Talker being like,

you can do this, you can try, and you need someone sometimes to wake you up and push you in that direction. But, yeah, so yes, it kind of sucks that we weren't as involved with all the writing back then, but I don't know if I would have done it, you know, even if it was a thing, if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, the reason why I ask you and why I appreciate your honest answers is because you guys have made it through ebbs and flows. And I know, well, we know a couple bands that the band members don't write and despise their front man, and there's no repatching it.

And there's like no, like, desire to make it something back to the way it used to be. And we, I know we can name a few off the top of our heads if we wanted it. too. And it's like, it's really interesting when bands, you know, you make choices along the way. And the communication to get through those tough moments are what make bands stay together or even like each other while they are staying together. Because we know those bands that. I mean, it's like some of them, I'm sure, go past like the road of no return. But I'm just happy that we didn't get there. You know, I think we.

Yeah, but you guys could, you know, that's all, it's so relative, sorry to interrupt, but it's so relative. because like, you know, and not to jump over a couple albums because, yes, don't panic's big. You guys have a big size hit out of it. Future Hearts is a debuts number two at Billboard 200. You guys become like, it's not like you guys were not successful, you know.

So for it to go from that and then to where you, like to change the dynamic. after albums like that to then have the success of something like Monsters is pretty sick. Yeah, it's been an amazing journey. It's almost like, you know, to give the abridged history of those albums, it's like, you know, coming off a tumultuous cycle that was dirty work, like there were a lot of successes, and it did elevate us in a kind of getting our name out there more in a universal sense. But in a lot of ways, like there were things that didn't connect.

You know, the big radio hit that we hoped for didn't happen. and there were just some things that didn't connect in certain ways. And so we ended up actually leaving Interscope after that record and re-signing with our former label Hopeless because we kind of felt like we needed a minute to rekindle our base and get back to ourselves and what this band did. And so Don't Panic was really that for us. It was almost a reinvention and a reimagining

and a return to form, quote unquote, of like this band. And then we grew again from there. You know, that record turned into Future Hearts, which I think established us again as this sort of maybe a mainstay in the genre. And then from there, we signed another deal and made Last Young Renegade. And it was Last Young Renegade that was like, you know, back on a major label, trying some new things. It was creatively a really interesting time for us because I think Last Young Renegade was the precursor to us taking a bit of a hiatus, not hiatus, but a break from all time, creatively speaking. And it led to Jack and I actually branching off and getting into some of our own

side projects. And I think that was a huge part. I don't want to speak for you, Jack, but like, that was a big part for you where you really came into your own and flourished, realizing that you could write, you know, and that you could learn to do this again. And I think it allowed me creatively to scratch some itches that maybe I was chasing on that record lasting Renegade, wanting to do some different things that didn't necessarily at the time align with the sound people were accustomed too for our band. It ended up being a great album for us, but at the same time, I think they were all these little necessary stepping stones

for us to get to where we are now, and I don't think we'd be where we are now without some of those twists and turns. Yeah, Last Young Renegade, it's really interesting that it feels like it gets a lot of critical acclaim. But because it,

you know, it didn't react as well as the previous album, did that change do you feel like there was a commercial reason why you guys took a break then after that or is it more like just you guys have been basically nonstop

since you were in eighth grade I think it was more of that I think we were pretty burnt out and I think creatively like I didn't I didn't know where to go from there I didn't have a creative thread to pull for all time low

I just didn't know what all time low was supposed to sound like after that it just there was no channel for me. So personally speaking, I needed to kind of just step away and do something a bit different and not think about it for a while. I think sometimes space and time can be a great healer and a teacher.

So that was kind of my approach to it. Yeah, we were just tired. I would say we were really burnt out. But there was an obvious, there was also an obvious air of like we tried some different things creatively and while it did get a lot of critical acclaim and we got all these like new looks and great reviews and things that we had never had before as a band. Because to be honest, like speaking quite candidly here, like, our band's

never really been like a press darling or anything like that. You know, we are, we are a three out of five star band. Like most albums, three and a half stars is our spot. And we like, we came to kind of just know that and accept it. And then it's like, you know, then we put

out last young renegade and it was like four stars, five stars. And I was like, oh no, we're fucked. What's going on here? What's going on? And yeah, it just kind of left, like it checked all these new boxes for us, which our band, like, fortunately, we've been so, so lucky to continue doing that over time. But yeah, it left us a little bit creatively,

just confused and lost. We were kind of swimming going, like, well, what the hell do we do now? Well, you guys sort of answered that by doing your side projects. Both of you guys have cool side projects. You know, Jack, who hurt you, that song, I think I texted

you once it came out, because I was like, yeah, that song's great. So good. You know what's crazy about about all that is I was thinking about this today when I was thinking about the podcast before kind of mentally preparing myself. I thought about, you know, I kind of mentioned it earlier.

Like Kelly was one of the people that tried to convince me to do songwriting. And so one of the ways she did that was setting up a meeting with you. And so I'd written one song at that point with Kevin and I came into the studio with you and I played you the song. And you kind of like broke down the song and gave me some advice. And I took that and we went and next song did was wish we never met. So I really, really took a lot from that meeting and it kind of gave me a lot of confidence. And also it was important to hear how you got started because, you know,

it's, it helped to find, because all I kind of knew from songwriting was Alex, Alex's journey. And it was interesting to hear like another songwriter's journey and to see what exactly it means to be a songwriter and what it means to bring different things to a writing room. You know, you kind of, you kind of introduced me to like to the idea that, you know, songwriters, there can be different types of songwriters in every room. You know, that could be good at different things. And that was the kind of the first time someone had told me that. And yeah, so that was really cool to hear.

I always think it's funny that there is, you know, if you have 16.6% of a song, which means that there are six writers on a song, what is 16.6% of a song? Is that three quarters of a pre-chorus? Is that the second verse? Is that the post? Is that the drum part? What is 16.6% of the song?

And yet, most writers, when they go in the room, if they don't contribute 50% or 100%, they feel like they didn't earn anything. Right. And it depends the kind of writing that you're doing. But if you're doing a co-write, and there are two people in the room, and one guy writes everything but the title

and the other guy writes the title but the title's what sells the record isn't that worth a lot? Yeah. Like what is it, what is 16.6% really worth? What is 25% worth? We are so used to being control freaks or the opposite

being, you know, like ashamed of our ideas that either way, like, you don't recognize that your contribution's worth the same in a session. Yeah. Yeah, essentially, you know, I mean, that, well, like, a lot of, that's, that's something I learned in that thing. It's like, you know, song writers don't have to, like, walk in and write an entire

song. Right. You know, it can be, like, your contributions can be a couple words that change the whole concept of what the song's even about. And that was kind of a big learning experience for me because, you know, I hadn't done too much writing before. Some of the biggest writers we've had on this podcast

I know from writing with them that they don't do really anything in the room. What they do is like some of them are the best at saying that's not good, that's better, that's amazing and that should be this.

But they know how to inspire the room or they know how to they understand what a hit is better than everybody else, but they may not actually be the engine. They may be like... Amuse. Yeah.

Maybe they're the shape of the car, but they're not like they don't make it run. Yeah, exactly. We got to talk about simple creatures, man. Mark Hoppice. You started a project with a legend. A hero of mine. I mean, 100% it was one of the biggest full circle moment. of my life. You know, I, I, when I had the first phone call where I had just gotten off the

phone with Mark, and then we, we went and grabbed breakfast and talked about whether, because basically the way this panned out, long story short, is Mark wanted to work on essentially a Mark and Friends project, and he was going to do a bunch of different tracks with a bunch of different people from music and people he'd worked with in the past and stuff like that. And we essentially got together to write a song that I would feature on for this project. We did that. It went really well. The vibe was really cool. And then the next thing I know we meet for breakfast and he's like, what if this is a band? And it just blew my mind because, you know, I had never considered, it blew my mind for so many reasons because it's Mark from Blink who got me started in a lot of ways.

But like, you know, it was also, I had never considered a side project before. I'd never considered the idea of another band with anyone else other than my boys. And so it was real weird. And like, I remember getting home from that breakfast and calling Jack and having that conversation. Like, Mark wants to start a band with me. What do I do? Like, I felt, there was part of me that felt guilty about it. It was weird.

I was just like, this is strange. And it was such an odd dynamic of feeling kind of guilty for even wanting to entertain this idea and, like, kind of, you know, cheat on my band with another band. But there was also this whole thing of. like, yeah, this is why I started, I mean, Mark is a huge part of why I started a band and why we play music and why we wanted to tour.

Yeah, it was a no-brainer at that point. And, you know, Jack was the first one to be like, do it. What do you? What are you even talking about second guessing? You have to do it. I think Alex was a little bit surprised because I was like way too into it. I was like,

dude, that's amazing. It's going to be great for our band. It's going to be great for you. It's going to be, you know, it'd be great for us to have some time off while you get to like learn and grow as a songwriter and also mark hopas like to me it felt like a no-brainer i think to alex he had some reservations about bumming us out you know absolutely it's what we've done some good interviews with like you know ben gibbard and and you know and mark and whatnot where you talk about these people who live in side projects like everything's everything's a side project versus you know it's like nothing's real i mean obviously

Blink 182 and Death Cap for Cutie are main things in their lives. But they're part of communities that are totally you know, that are, I don't know, that thrive on side projects. It's just fascinating. It's like, it's totally okay and no one should feel bad about it.

It's just an album or it's just an idea. And there's something about that in the sexiest way, there's something really sweet about the fact that you can go and just create music with somebody new and just see what happens and then you still go home. It's like not a monogamous part of the industry but like it's okay to not be

it's like I have a lot of co-writers I write a ton with but it's nice that like I've you know it's nice when I get to write with people that I don't write with all the time. I think in the past it used to be used to like maybe in the 90s especially who's probably view it as like oh this band's

not doing well. So they're going to do something else, you know, in the late 90s, early 2000s. But I really don't think that's how people look at it now. You know, I think side projects are just like, oh, we're getting more music. This is sweet. You know what I mean? There's room for content in every facet at this point. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, we have to talk about, you know, wake up sunshine comes out. Monster is the biggest song of your career, eight weeks at number one. it's something you guys got to work on together I mean this is nuts how does it have like 17 years later yeah what

we're like why now you know what it is man and I really feel like it's like we tried so long to have something like this and we tried so hard to have to have a song like this and then the moment you just stop trying it happens and I think it's like

I think that's just like, that's how life is. And that's kind of how this, that's how monsters came about, I think. For sure. There's so many things that go into it. You know, I mean, all the right things have to line up, you know, the right team, the right time, the right song, the right people, the right place. But like, yeah, I do genuinely think there's a lot to be said for the fact that we, we weren't shooting for any kind of target, you know?

We had circled back after our side projects, respectively, and after doing a more experimental all-time low record. and we kind of went back to the other side of the coin and we rented a house and we were just writing songs and it felt very much like our beginnings. Obviously with a much different lens now because we learned so much and we were different people but we were doing it the way we did it when we first started

and there was something to be said for the fact that getting back to that point of origin led to the biggest song we've ever written. Yeah, in this segment, Andrew Goldstein says that it's not that bad. Andrew. Andrew Goldstein. Every time the song moves up a position in the charts, we just get a text from Andrew being like,

it's not that bad. Andrew has been a longtime collaborator for people who don't know, and one of my favorite writers and producers. And, yeah, he kind of was one of the instrumental pieces of that song and how it came together. and yeah. That guy secretly is one of the best musicians in Los Angeles. Absolutely.

So, you know, an interesting story about Goldstein. Maybe not secretly, the guy's a bunch of hits now. But like, you know. I love telling this story. We haven't actually told it enough, I feel like, considering that Goldstein is, you know, a big part of this band still. In high school, we used to play local shows with Goldstein's band. And there was this one song we had called The Party Scene,

which had a guitar part that I couldn't play because I wasn't good enough. And Alex couldn't play it because he, was singing at the same time, and he's not, Alex isn't going to pull a co-heed and like shred while singing. So, uh, Andrew would come and play the song with us on stage when we were in high school. So, like, he legitimately has always been the guest, the best guitar player in all time low. Yeah, so it's really come full circle. Uh, you guys have another single coming out, album coming out.

You guys are, are not slowing down just because you're not on tour for a touring band to, to be doing music, you know, in this era. I'm sure that's strange. Any comments on that? I mean, it's just been a wild, for everyone, it's been a wild time. But, you know, we put our album out in April of 2020 when everything really locked down heavily. And we had never, obviously, marketed a record that way

or released an album under those kinds of circumstances. And so the rest of the year was spent finding ways to connect with our fans and a new audience. And, you know, we're very, very lucky that the song has also gone on. Monsters has gone on to, like, do what it did because that's connected us in a new way with a new audience and kind of carried us through to this year in spite of not being able to be out there on the road doing what we usually do. And at this point, we've kind of just, you know, about halfway into last year, even though the record was still fresh, we kind of started the conversation about like we should start writing again because it's really the only thing we can control right now in our music world.

So yeah, we've just gotten creative again. You're doing it from four different states. I mean, I guess you're half in Maryland, half in L.A., but this band has four people who have residences in four different states. Zach and Hawaii, Ryan and Nashville, you know, it's so modern. Yeah, I mean, this, I will say like the spirit of collaboration has evolved by force because of COVID and lockdown and everything. You know, the session, virtual sessions, Zoom sessions, working on songs remotely is, you know, that's not an unusual thing anymore. And I don't think that will be an unusual thing going forward, even when we're out of this and everybody can be in a room safely together again.

It's really opened up a lot of lanes and a lot of channels to be creative in different ways. and so yeah it'll be interesting to see how it carries forward. All right, we're going to this next segment is called Five for Five, so I'm going to just list something and I want you guys to tell me what comes out of top of your head. Ryan. Sweetest boy, best drummer, great smile. Good looks.

That's really funny. Both of you guys are like kind of blushing right now because he's a very attractive man. Yeah. Certainly is. Zach. Muscle Beach. Virtuoso. The dude is musically just so, so talented.

Yeah. Let's go with your fans. The lifeblood of this band, the heartbeat. Passionate. Yeah, passionate, dedicated. And, yeah, they are what has, they're, they've worked hard and we have managed to maintain for 15, 16, 16, years, but we would not be

what we are now without a really dedicated core fan base that's come along with us for the journey. I mean, yeah. Five seconds of summer. Sweet boys. Sweet talented, hardworking boys. They remind me of like, remember how like the Beatles,

like everyone was a great songwriter? It's like five seconds, man. They're all just so talented. They're a powerhouse for sure. All right. This last one, Alex, I'm asking you, Jack. The secret weapon, the secret sauce. Oh, let's go.

He's always been the secret sauce in this band. I mean, like, you know, he, it's, it's whether it's... I don't know about that. It's true. I mean, like, it's your vibe. The thing you bring to the table is, is like an intangible, you know? It's like, you can say that I've been the songwriter, the creative, and you can say that, you know, Ryan's an incredible drummer and Zach's an incredible bass player.

And, like, everybody brings something incredible to this, this table. but like, yeah, there's something to be said about being the secret sauce, you know? It's what sets you apart. It makes you special. Thank you. Well, that's very nice. Jack, Alex.

Raw talent. You know, it's like, I'll never forget, like, in high school or even middle school, when we would go over to play guitar. Like, I could, like, barely play Dammit by Blake Winay 2, and Alex could play Metallica and her Sandman. And I was like, damn it, we're like 12 years old. And I was just like, kids, I always got raw. talent, baby.

That's what made Blink 1282 great at that time though, man, because they wrote really great songs that you didn't have to be good enough to play Metallica. It was accessible, for sure. Well, thank you guys for doing this podcast. I looked it up.

I figured Alex, you and I wrote together in 2016, so it's five years ago, like last month, I think. So that That's probably the first time that we work together. Jack, you've been to my house. Yeah.

You know? Super cool. And so it's always fun when you have people that you're friends with that on a, I don't know, this whole world is so weird. Like we all get to work with each other and work with our friends. And you guys have done some amazing, like the most impressive thing to me that you guys have done is stayed together. It's just so.

hard, man. This industry is not... Thanks, dude. I just... We know a lot of people who've had a lot of hits that are not happy with each other. Right. You know? And here you are like following up a hit after 17 years being like, yo, let's start the next thing. And you guys are already doing... I mean, come on, man. That's just not... That's not normal. It's not usual. It's... And it's earned because it takes serious work. So I appreciate your work ethic.

you guys have earned all the success you've had and that you will have and much love. Dude, thank you for saying that. It's very, very kind of you to say. Appreciate it. Thanks for having us, dude. This was fun.

Yeah. There you go. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and The Writer is.com. If you like what we're doing,

please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.