And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 125: Pop Wansel

Episode Date: April 12, 2021

Today’s guest is an American record producer, musician and songwriter from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. As the son of Philadelphia soul icon Dexter Wansel, he grew up in the music industry and began writing and producing his own music at the age of ten, citing rapper Nas and Motown songwriting team Holland–Dozier–Holland as his early inspirations. In 2006, today’s guest reached out to Nicki Minaj via Myspace message looking to collaborate. After her initial interest, he sent her an idea that would eventually become the basis for "Your Love". Nicki recorded the track and the unmastered demo subsequently leaked in 2009, landing at #1 on Billboard's Hot 100 Rap Songs, and launching our guest and production partner Warren "Oak" Felder to international acclaim. Since then, today’s guest has collaborated with an impressive list of artists including Ariana Grande, Usher, Demi Lovato, Kehlani, Rihanna, Alessia Cara, Megan Thee Stallion and many more. And The Writer Is… Pop Wansel!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. and the writer is.com. For a little bit of context,

we just wanted you to know that a lot of these were recorded before quarantine. And as we know, a lot has changed in 2020. So again, please stay safe out there. and enjoy the new episodes of End The Writer Is. Welcome to End The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's modern songwriter legend isn't just a topliner forward slash producer, but a song innovator and nurturer of unique talent spanning all of the genres,

R&B, pop, soul, you name it. His records rarely stay inside the box. And since he notoriously hustled his first major production to Nikki Minaj, through MySpace over a decade ago, he has become a staple in the music industry. With multi-platinum smashes, Grammy nominations, and a BMI pop song of the year

win under his belt, he is still making some of today's freshest songs without chasing trends. All the way from Philly, this guy literally has music in his jeans. And the writer is Andrew Pop Wanzel. Ooh, what an introduction, bro. Wow.

I feel like we've met a few times in like and I think it was like Benny's kitchen or something. That's exactly where. That's a great place to me too. That's been all of our, I think, interactions. Do you, you're like a real chef. Like you love cooking.

I love the cook. I cook a lot. I might love it a little more than what we have to talk about today. Is that right? Not for real. Do you really? Bro, what you just said even, like the whole MySpace thing was me, I met Nicky on MySpace trying to sell beats to rappers to get money for culinary school. Whoa.

Yeah, man. Did you have gone to culinary school? I didn't. I had a guy number one song. What kind of, I can't imagine there are five people who can say that on the planet. What kind of food do you like to cook? You know, I like to cook everything. What am I known for cooking?

I'm known for cooking. Come from food and soul food. Everybody loves the mac and cheese and everybody loves the damn, the gumbo and the fried chicken and the okra and the collard greens and stuff like that. How did you get into that? How I got into cooking, honestly, man.

I feel like my mom was one of the best cooks, like, in my life. And she got injured when I was real young and shit. like she got injured and I had to learn and even though I got eight siblings I was the only one that kind of like cared to learn or wanted to learn for that matter and by the time I was 16

I was doing like Thanksgiving by myself I'm there yeah man I mean while you're on while we're on the fat that you had wait how many siblings you had eight other siblings or eight

I'm the youngest of eight my mother has eight children. I'm the youngest of eight kids. Yeah, man. And my dad has... I mean, if people... How do people not realize that women are superheroes and they can actually create like eight human? Man, I don't know. And that's why I am anything, women, empowerment, anything, I'm here for it. I'm an advocate. I love women because of women like my mother. It's a real thing, man.

Absolutely. let's talk about your childhood. You grew up in Philly. I grew up in Philly. Why? Yeah. I was just going to say, why are all the great musicians from Philly? What is it in Philly that makes great music?

It's the cheese steaks, bro. It's the cheese steaks. I don't know, man. It's just a vibe in Philadelphia. It's so, uh, it's so broad. It's so real. And there's, there's no, nobody in Philly, I feel like, ever bought it. by the book of any in any facet room.

You know what I'm saying? Like there's no, we really live by there's no bright or wrong way to do it, especially in music. I think, and I think that has a lot to do with it, man. There's really no method to the madness. What is your, you know, I envision eight children. Either you guys are all trying to make music together or you guys don't want to be in the same room with each other.

I can't tell what it's like to have. you know, seven siblings with you. I just don't know how you guys, how do you end up, like tell me about your childhood. That's such a unique number of humans and one under one roof. Bro, you know what's so crazy?

I'm the only musician. How's that? Well, who, what kind of music? I mean, oh, your dad's a professional musician. Yes. He's like, he's a, you know, he's an icon of,

Yeah, he is. He is. He's a legend. Describe your parents. Describe, like, how you got into music as a kid. So my dad is a songwriter and producer to this day. You know, but his heyday was the 70s and the 80s where he had a string of hits. And I grew up with a crazy-ass, like, record collection in my house. and it was always interesting to me and it was always, you know,

little boys is always up under their dad. I was always up under my dad and watching what he was doing. He was always making music. He was always sitting at the keyboard or, you know, I was with him at the studio or, you know, but on top of that, on top of my dad making music,

on top of the records in the basement, have seven other siblings in the house with me. And they are listening to something totally different. I got a brother that's listening to Ice Cube. I got another brother that's listening to A-Z and Naz. And then I got a sister who's listening to Gospel. And I got another sister who's listening to Mary J. Blige. And then I got another sister who's listening to Dance All.

And then I got another sister who's listening to like super like youthful rhythmic what's in at the moment. And that's just was my house. And I had all of this music around me, man. Did you start making music, you know, with your dad. the studio? Is that when you first started making music? When did you think you could actually do that? You know what? I always love music. And every kid goes through a Michael Jackson phase, right? I think that's just the thing. I had a Michael Jackson phase where like I, he was, I never seen nothing like it. This is the greatest entertainer ever. And a thriller album, like, you know,

one of my favorite albums of all time. And human nature being one of my favorite songs. And, um, Nas watching TV with my brothers. Nas, it ain't hard to tell video comes on. And I'm listening to it and I'm like, I'm young, I'm five years old, right? But I'm like, this is human nature. He's rapping to human nature.

And I didn't know I had, I was like, what is this? And my dad was like, oh, he sampled it. And I think from that day when my dad explained sampling to me and showed me what a sample was and how to sample. That was it, bro. I was like, oh, this is, this is it. This is what I'm doing. That was it.

And that's why I'm a very sample-based producer because of that. Like, that's my origin. So would you go into a studio at five years, I mean, five years old in the way? I started going into the studio at five, six years old. My dad pulling up a little drunk kid for me on his digital performer. he had the Apple computer that was like this fucking big and a MIDI controller and I started making like

kicking snare loose like and then by the time I was nine I did that for three years I went to the studio whenever I could by the time I was nine I was good by the time I was nine I was legit good at making beats I was good enough to sell them that's crazy

that's hard to fathom because you know obviously for so many reasons but when you're in fourth grade, you know, how are you creating that kind of music? I mean, were you writing lyrics and melodies at that point? I was always rapping.

I was always rapping. So at 90 you were already rapping? I was rapping, bro. Like my first album, the first album I ever had, the first two albums I ever bought was big, ready to die, and Junior Mafia Day album.

So I, like, I was rapping. I was rapping early. I mean, that's so nuts. Do you remember your first song? The first rap that I wrote personally? Yeah. I don't remember the first rap that I wrote. I did it so much.

I did it so much. I don't rap about anything. It was just my goal was to try to rhyme as much as possible. I keep the same rhyme skin going for as long as I could. I took the world. I mean, it's still good advice. It's still good advice, you know, but not so much. anymore. Like, you don't have to rhyme.

But I was like, because listening to Nod's and listening to A-Z and listening the big, I was like, wow, they can just think of so many words that rhyme with one word. That was really fascinating to me. So I would just, like, challenge myself to rhyme as much as possible without going to the the Thesaurus, without going to the dictionary.

But then, you know, at Nile, I'm saying words that don't even exist too. So then I had to start going to the dictionary and start going to the Thesaurus. I studied those too. Were you bringing this music to school? Oh, yeah. Were your people excited to hear the next, you know?

They loved it. Because I would go to the studio every Friday. And whatever beats I made and shit, we would put it to a cassette tape. And I would always take the cassette tape to school Monday with my walkman and putting my beats for people. You froze. Do you hear me? Sorry, I froze for people. Can you hear me?

I hear you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're back. I go, cool. I was just testing to see if you guys are all going to stay on for when I came back. Nothing like 2020 interviews over the internet. Are you in L.A. right now? I'm in L.A. right now, y'all.

I'm here, unfortunately. Okay, so let's go back. So you're playing songs for your friends in, and it is like elementary school. Did you want to be a rapper? Like, obviously you did on some level, but were you thinking, it's only because you're, you know, when you have a father is working in the business, then you actually know the difference between producing and being an artist. You know, I feel like most people are, you know, not, don't have that knowledge. I mean, did you think you were going to be a producer or a rapper or was it just let's make music that's cool? You know what? It was basically just to make music. I knew producing what's in the cards. I had a phase of, I had phases, I say, of wanting to actually be the artist. It was more so people wanted me to be the artist. I don't like that type of attention.

You know, if you, one thing you, even with our limited interactions, one thing you know about me is that I'm super low-key, right? It's like I'm super low key. I'm super under the radar. I've been like that my whole life. So I always, I found more satisfaction in making music, the idea of it being for other people. I mean, I can imagine what, again, with seeing somebody in the industry would either make you want to do it or make you not want to do it. You know, did that have any effect just watching your dad's career? Did that change how you thought of your.

your own, you know, your own performance of things. You know, of course, I had the privilege to hear, you know how we all hear horror stories, right?

I was hearing my stories from fucking Teddy Pendergast. You know? And Billy Paul and Lou Rawls. Like these were the men that I was around, my whole childhood with my father, these are my father's best friends. And these are the guys that I'm getting music business

stories from. These are the guys I'm getting music business advice from. These is the OGs, you feel me? So, um, the horror stories I heard were horror stories. It wasn't, oh, he, I got fucked in publishing and I was supposed

to get 5% more. It was none of that. It was real, it was real horror, you feel me? So, like, um, I think that did build the wall and I was apprehensive about being an artist. You know? Yeah, I'm sure. What were some of those stories? Do you remember any?

Oh my God, man. I mean, from just from the drugs, the real deal drugs to kidnapping and to murders and to to all type of like, yeah, like those type of stories, you know, that I probably shouldn't get into too much detail. But those are the type of stories that I got. 70s and the 80s was different. you know, we're real different, real different. So I thought like, damn, like, maybe I should stick to this, like, producing. Yeah, right. Were you producing out of, you know, was it in North Philly?

Like, were you producing? The only time I ever worked in Philly was at Dre and Vidal's studio. That was like, and that's like the only experience I ever had working in a studio in Philly. So I just envisioned all of the studios to be Drey and Vidal's studio. At that time. Nah. Yeah, so yeah, like growing up, my dad built a studio in the crib. I had a studio in the basement.

And it wasn't no, honestly, it wasn't no bullshit like basement studio. He built a booth, an isolated booth. And it was, we had two production rooms. And the house that I lived in before we moved in, the basement was built out. It used to be a dentist office. So it was finished. And it was, you know what I'm saying? Like it was separated with rooms.

And it was, we built the studio in the basement. And I made my music there. When I got a little older, fast forward, when I get a little older, my middle school, 12, 13, 14, I am now starting to go to, you know, 7th and Willow, 7th in Cuyallon, Philadelphia, which everybody knows, that's Larry Gold's studio, notorious studios now is called milk boy i did start going to drain the dows and i did start going to home cooking studios which was mama boy uh carvin and ivan also legends um and i would just sit around

you know what i'm saying i would sit around and hope that one of the roots whether it was terika or dice raw would ask me to come in and play beats or pick one of my beats or you know that just kind of was it me everybody knew i was dexter's little boy and and and larry gold looked after me and protected me and they would just kind of just let me sit in the lobby until somebody had free time to listen to my beats and some things they would be like, I would go in and play beats

they'd like, oh shit, like, I don't know if they were, they probably a lower expectation. I'm a kid, you know, six, seventh grade, eighth grade. And yeah, then I started going down there more and it would take me, they started taking me more serious and I would, you know, I started making music down there as well. when was the moment that it crossed over to playing people

beats to oh this is real I'm not actually like when's your first release when's the first time somebody cuts a record in a in a studio um the first times might cut a song in a studio was I mean I was a kid I was 14 like the roots

would wrap to my beat sometimes you know um and there were other acts in Philadelphia that were starting to blow up and blossom. You know, the state property guys, the PD cracks and the Chris and Eve

and Freeway. It was like a whole thing. It was just a whole... My first real release, though, with my name on it, I didn't have until I was 19 years old in 2008. That was the first song

that I got paid for that, like, a label coming. check for. But I also, I also had stopped making music from 15 to 18. Why? So by the time I'm 14, it was like, I was kind of like, people knew about me. Clive Davis knew about me and Puff knew about me. People were very interested in me, rough riders.

And it was a lot. I just felt like I was, I'm very interesting, man. Like, here's my dream. It's in front of me. And I just decided to know. I just want to go outside. I want to be in the streets. You know, I want to be with the homies.

And I don't want to miss none of that. I don't want to miss no real life. I don't know why that was my thought process at 14, but it was. I'm glad, you know, because I probably would have been in some bullshit, a bullshit situation. But, yeah, so, fast forward, I started making music again. You know, the streets is not, it was a lot. And I decided I wanted relief from that, and I got back into the music.

Was that a hard transition to go back into it? Or was it? You know. It wasn't hard. It was just, it wasn't hard. It wasn't hard. It wasn't hard because I had a goal, which was, I want to go to culinary school.

I dropped out of high school and, you know, go to culinary school, you need, you know, one of the two things need the education or you need the money. I didn't have the education. I didn't have a high school diploma. You didn't have no scholarship, no, you know, no grander, no cool shit like that. So I needed my own bread. And I started making the beats again because everybody in Philly raps and everybody in Philly He sells drugs.

Everybody fully has the money to buy bees. And I would sell beats, you know, $250, depend on a person, sell a beef for $500. And I was just kind of just like, you know, stacking my bread. And I met a Philadelphia, a legend, you know, Donnie Meadows, who took me under the wing and believed in me at that point from day one. And he introduced me, the first thing he did was introduced me to Oak. who became my brother and my mentor and taught me everything.

And Oak introduced me to Sterling Sims, who was an artist signed a Dev Jam at that time. And that was my first cut. That was my first cut from a label. Well, in this segment of what would Oak ass pop on end, writer is. Oak asked a couple questions. So first he asked, who makes

the best mac and cheese? Out of himself or myself? I mean, this is what, these are his questions. I'm just reading him. I'm just reading him verbatim, man. Who makes the best mac and cheese? Me! Yeah. Okay. I mean,

he said, he said, where was your favorite studio to work with, Oak? there's a studio on Philly it doesn't have a name but the address is 38 Jackson Street and I have the most memories in that

studio why bro we just have fun I mean that was really that that was the there was no there were no inhibitions there were no

there was no agenda there was no we didn't get damn about anybody's memo you know what I'm saying or brief. We just went in and literally did whatever the hell we wanted to do, bro. And it was very carefree. And us being that carefree was very fruitful.

And we, you know, it did a lot for us. We have fun. We had fun. We just didn't put a time on anything. We would start early. We would break out. We would go to dinner. Go to lunch.

Stop. Go to the strip club. Go to the movies. Go to, you know, whatever. like we just there was no I don't know the word that I'm looking for but it was just it was very it was very free

it was very free time he also asked he had a few so just bear with us here he said is the worst song you ever did by yourself better or worse than the worst song you ever did with Oak

the worst song what did he said he said you know he said he knows the song that shall not be named. It shall not be named, but the worst song I ever made in my life I absolutely made with Hulk. Ever. It's the worst song of all time, dog.

No way. What is this song? I will never tell you what the song is called and you'll never hear it. Bro, we made this song, it's three in the morning and we're going, everybody's still going crazy, right? The next day, we can come off. fucking studio, I'm like, oh, pull it up.

He pulled the song up and we played it and went off. We just sat there in silence. And just kind of looked at him. I was like, bro, can't have I ever hear this song? This is the worst song we've ever made. And we never opened the session again. I feel like it's so important for us all to have a couple songs that are so bad that like maybe they get deleted.

You cross your fingers. It doesn't end up on, you know, doesn't get on somebody's hard drive because We don't write the bad songs. Listen, bro, we made sure that that's why I did. There was never a bounce of this song. A bounce of this song doesn't exist. Yeah. Well, I hope if people are listening to this,

that there are some people who ask you an oak a lot of times for a bounce of this thing, because it would be fantastic entertainment. Don't never get it. You should do a playlist of, like, worst songs ever written of, like, you know, that might be. I want to hear

The last question he asked was What's more important As a producer Fulfilling your own creative wishes Are satisfying the mainstream You gotta pick one

Fulfilling my own Creative Wishes For sure But 100% Anybody that don't mean His business Know that about me too Which is why I like

You know I'm My name pops up very sporadically, I think. It's not all the time because I refuse to do some all the time shit. Like, if I don't like it, if I'm not with it, I'm not doing it. And I'm definitely at that, for the past couple years, especially, I've gotten to a point in my life and in my career where I just can't force myself to do some shit that I don't feel, bro.

And it's not, it doesn't come from a place of arrogance. It doesn't come from, you know, a place of me. being an asshole or anything like that. It just is what it is. I'm not going to waste your time either. Why would I come in and do something or I'm not going to give 100 and 50%. It's just not going to work out for anybody.

So unusual for a songwriter to recognize that in themselves. I feel like every songwriter in the game is pulled by, you know, sometimes it's fees. Sometimes it's just, you know, when the floor is really high and you can work with certain artists where you know that they'll sell enough that if you, you know, you get these cuts, but it doesn't really necessarily satisfy this music, you know, why we got into this.

Exactly. You know what I mean? I feel like we go through enough in this business, enough to, you know, damage our mental health as it is. So at the very least, it's like, I always have to tap back into why I'm in it. And that's because music, the music that I like and the music that I love makes me happy.

And I have to feel that way about it all the time. Me personally. Yeah. Me personally. Who taught you about, I feel like nobody talks about mental health, recently people are talking about mental health, but most people don't. Who taught you that to actually have that kind of integrity? Because I feel like that would have been a good lesson for a lot of people we know.

Yeah. a very early, I was diagnosed with anxiety disorder very early in life. Clinically, with medicine. You know, I feel like a lot of people use these, you know, mental health keywords very loosely these days. But as someone who's been on medicine and stuff like that, it's no joke. And so I absolutely have to prioritize that personally.

because my health is at stake. I mean, all of our health is at stake, honestly, but when it's a doctor telling you, your health is at stake. It's something I felt like I needed to take serious. And even then, you know, because I was diagnosed with anxiety disorder and panic disorder as a kid, like a teenager.

But when I realized that I was doing things I got to a point in my career, right, where I was like, I didn't want to go to the sessions no more. I didn't want to fly out here to L.A. anymore. I just wanted to be in Philly all the time. I wanted to be around my friends and I wanted to be around my family. And it was stopping me from making money. I didn't care. And I had to really sit down one day and analyze that.

And it was like, oh, shit, pop, you're doing sessions and you're doing things that doesn't make you happy. maybe you should only tap in and be selective and do things that make you happy and being selected doesn't mean A list only because it's a lot of A-list shit that I won't do because I'm not into it and maybe it'll make me a million dollars and I'm missing out on that

but that's okay with me because I have to live with the music that I create the music lives the music doesn't die and I have to be okay with the music that I make there's some songs that my dad did. Sometimes we're like, I hate that song.

I was going to do that song. I'm like, that can't be me, man. Like, I want to be proud of everything that I do. I want it all to make me happy. And got to walk into these rooms and be happy. You got to walk into the rooms with people that I like and people that I appreciate and people whose energy that I, that makes me comfortable. Four or five years ago.

Why, I really tapped into this. He's frozen in. Oh, sorry. I froze. I thought you froze. Are we back? We're back. Yeah, you're good. Can you hear me? Are you, have you been, do you feel like you're maintaining a good place with dealing with your anxiety and now that you've become as selective as you are? I heard maintaining. All right. Here, let me, give me one sec. I'm going to try this one thing. You back. You there? You there?

You there? Check, check. You there? Yeah. Yeah. All right. No. Gone.

We lost them. I'm here. I'm here. Sorry. I mean, my internet just is crap. But yeah, what I was going to ask is, you know, when dealing with anxieties and an ongoing process,

it's not something that necessarily goes away. It's something that you have to, maintain some discipline. Do you feel like you're maintaining at this point? Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think I'm answering this question correctly.

When you cook, do you find that that is a relief from anxiety? Is that something that, you know, doing stuff not music related, not business related, does that alleviate some of the anxiety or all of the anxiety? Any time I get a new, a new sickness, a new ailment or whatever the case, it's like while I'm working a lot, when I'm working crazy hours, when I'm working back to back, no days off, you feel me?

And the moment I take a break from it, it goes away. And it just tripped me out sometimes how mental it could really be, man. Like it's really, really mental. I have a back injury, right? And some days I'm better than others and going a bad day, it could be bad. At the moment I'll start cooking

or I'll start doing something not music related, I don't even feel it no more. It's weird. It's really, really strange. Why do we do this? We love music, man. I love music. I love music more than anything.

I love to listen to it. You know, I love to listen to it. And nothing better than a good song. And I love challenging myself to make those songs as good as the songs that I fell in love with and inspired me to make songs. And that's why. That's why I do it. That's why I do it. And I just think that my priorities for a long time were not in order.

and I had to be order my priorities and say, hey, listen, this is great. This is, it's awesome. It pays the bills, but you know, you could do other things to pay your bills too. You don't have to stress yourself out. You know, and say, I've got to work, I got to work, I got to make money. It's not that.

That's not cool, man. It's not fun. I'm not on anybody's fucking payroll. We don't have bosses and shit like that. It's like, we really can do this how we want to do it. And there is no right way or wrong way to do it, in my opinion. And I just felt like I really had to, again, re-do some, do some,

reorganize my priorities so that I could still make music and still make a living and still be happy and still be in the business, but also like living in real life and be happy and have fun of our kids. And I'm the fun uncle and shit, like, you know, like, and I'm a fun dad, and I like to do things, bro. Like, I'm not, this music shit is really not. I love it. I love it.

And I don't, I hate saying this stuff sometimes because it could, you know, somebody, you know, with the amount of sense that I've been able to attain at this point in my life, it could, I guess I could come off a little like ungrateful sometimes. And that's totally not the case. Like I'm super grateful for everything. I know that I'm blessed. But I just also recognize that I actually have a real life outside of music. No, I don't think that's ungrateful.

I think that's what you said. It's organizing priorities. And I think most musicians and most workaholics are not good at organizing their priorities. Or they wouldn't be workaholic. Like, you know, that ability to prioritize is so different. and the ability to say no to things is excruciating for a songwriter. Yeah. It takes a lot to learn to say, no, actually not making, an A&R person said this to me early

on and it plagues me in so many ways. She said to me, she said, you know, I'm so jealous of songwriters because you can create an asset every day. If you want to build a house, all you have to do is write a song and then you have a new asset. And the only reason why that plagues me is because once you think like that, then you're sitting there being like, why am I not writing a song right now? Because in that other room is this potential. But if I'm outside and I'm just enjoying some nice, a nice beautiful day, like that fills your soul. But then you're, you know, how do you leave an recording studio empty? There's so much

potential in a recording studio and that's like that's the worst part and the hardest part of being a professional musician is leaving that recording studio empty. Yeah, it is but like I can't tell you like how much mental anguish I would like be in if I viewed songs as assets. Like that would stress me out all day, every day. And I get that perspective.

but you know as well as I know, every song ain't the song at the same time. I mean, clearly, I mean, that's exactly right. It's to understand that it also doesn't make the songs that you do choose to write better because you crowded your, you know, you took your best ideas and used them over here. You took your, you know, it doesn't always help to just be in session. all the time and doing the double sessions and the triple sessions and doing all that stuff seems a good idea

I think we all start doing that which is good to get the 10,000 hours in but at some point you know being a human helps you know just to go back a little bit to because I want to go through some of the discography you know when you

really the genuine album that's really the first time where it jumps up to you know to like I have cuts to like you know a different level and I feel like that's when people recognize you know pop and oak is like almost like this writing team of sorts um did you recognize

the success while you were having it or were you already working on the next song What was it like for you to jump into that moment of success? I mean, the first couple of releases were exciting. They were like, they were all over the place. It was like genuine. It's like Ashley Tisdale. It was weird.

I was just kind of piggybacking off whatever Oak sessions were. Whatever Oak sessions were, Oak was bringing me in, you know, as his, you know, young protege. and whatever it was, I just was up for the challenge. I didn't really care. I was just happy to be traveling. We traveled the country making those songs. We went to Miami, and I think we'd been genuine in St. Louis. I was like in L.A. living with Oak.

We were going to Philly and working. It was just fun for me at that time. I didn't understand the success of those songs. because I didn't really feel like success was happening because it was just like, you know, like it was what it was. We weren't making a ton of money and nothing like that. I always measured success with money, you know. I always did that.

So I was like, oh, I don't have a million dollars that I must not be successful in these songs or shit. They're not successful. But I was having fun, you know. I was definitely having fun. I didn't realize the amount of success that we, were getting until Nikki started to blossom.

Yeah, you have to tell that story about how Nikki, how you became, how Nikki met you. It's kind of amazing. So I feel like you have to tell that story. Yeah, man, it was my space. It was my space. I had a message that I copy and paste to all these rappers

because I was trying to get a rapist to buy my beats and she was one of those rappers. I don't know if you remember. On my space you could have like you there was like a little music box where you like you could upload your own music and I had like four of my beats up there

and I sent her message and she messaged me back and was like yo you're crazy and I was like yo you're crazy And then she had just done a DVD called The Come Up DVD, which was like a street level DVD of like people rapping and like underground rap artists. And they were always getting like a mainstream artist to host it. And Nikki's segment of the Come Up DVD just so happened to be on the edition of the DVD that Little Wayne was hosting. And the way they did it was after Little Wayne segment of the DVD, Nikki came on. right after.

And that's how Wayne saw her. And, you know, she, like, I met her on MySpace and she was telling me what was happening and it was exciting. And we just started going back and forth on music over the years. And, you know, mixtape one, mixtape two, by our third mixtape. She was still on sign, but, like, larger than life, it seemed. And I was a part of that.

And I now have. had, it was weird because it was like, this is during the genuine days and during the Ashley Tisdell stuff, Nikki Minaj is blowing up, you know, and I'm a part of this too. And this is really getting me the buzz. Like, I'm getting buzz because I'm working with Oak who has a buzz of his own in the business and good on the street level and, um, and also, you know, on the industry side too, I'm getting buzz because I'm like, I'm Nikki's guy, you know. And, bro, before when the Young Money album came out

and that rocked it really well and I didn't produce that song but we had songs on the Young Money album and from there it was like that was the shift. That was the shift. And then obviously your love, when they released your love, that changed

my life. That's when I felt like holy shit, this is successful. Well, and to see I don't think if people don't know the mixtape history of Nikki Minaj, she's probably the most hyped artist before she got signed

in, I feel like in the last 20 years. I mean, everybody had a copy of that. Yeah. You know, certainly the last mixtape. Yeah. And it was just like, I mean, everybody had it. It was so, that thing is, that thing was a smash long before she had that deal.

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, most people aren't, watching an artist go from that to like pop stardom. Well, for the people who don't know and that are listening, that last Nicki Minaj mixtape is legendary. It's iconic. It broke the website. Thatpiff.com, the website, all the mixtapes were released to

and crashed the website. And those songs from that mixtape were getting, you know, regular radio airplay. And it really was like, it was something, like we had never seen anything like that. A couple of the guys, like Wizz was also really big on the mixtape circuit. But Nikki's had songs from her mixtape, you know, like on the radio countdowns. Like top line at nine and shit like that. And it would be a mixtape song for Nikki Minaj on that countdown.

It was crazy to watch this happen. It was really similar to when when people started hearing the M&M mixtape stuff. It's like where it just, it goes through the industry or it goes through just like normal life. And it's, you just know what the outcome is going to be. And the fact that you got to ride that wave from the beginning. I wrote the wave and it was so crazy because it was like,

yo, universal, I did a publishing deal. I did my publishing deal with Universal, Jessica Rivera. It's also iconic sign me in, I think like six months after I did my publishing deal, me and Nick had a number one song, number one rap song. It was number one for nine weeks, and a female hadn't had a number one song prior to that for nine years. And that was really when I saw the shift. That was really when I saw like, oh, this is, this is what it, okay, that's when I understood what I was getting myself into. It was bitter sweet because in my mind, I'm still going to culinary school.

You know what I'm saying? In my mind, I'm like, I'm still going to go to culinary school. But that was something that I couldn't walk away from that in that time. If it happened today, like if I was just starting the day with this mindset and, you know, at the age that I'm at now at 32, I could give a number one record and walk away. I couldn't do it at 20. It's like, holy shit. You know, 20, 21.

Well, I mean, and they, you know, it's when doors are open, you walk through them. You walk through them. And especially, especially at that age, like, what are you going to do? Those are opportunities. And especially that if access is everything for people. Yeah. Yeah. And then access to who's, you know, somebody who's, you know,

somebody who's everyone knew is like the, you know, the biggest this is before you know, Roman Reloaded and all the other you know, this is before Starships. This is like watching, you're just watching this person blow up and seeing

this thing happen. I'm, I, you can't walk away from that. No, bro, let me tell you on the door open and I walk through that bitch with holding my nuts. Like, you know what I walked through the door, man. I had to. I had to. I had to. I had to. I had to.

You know, you start, this is, it clearly you start working nonstop. Because at that point, you have so many releases with so many big artists. And, you know, again, with some, at that point, really new artists like Alvarner and, you know, but, you know, it's just this long list. Busta with Lil Wayne. I mean, like you're, they had to be your icons at this time. You know, Kanye stuff. Like, this is just crazy. I mean, were you starting to feel like, you know, that you,

were you starting to feel the pressure that the music you were creating had to be at a certain level? Or are you just trying to get that session? No, I definitely put pressure on myself because I had very, very quickly in my career. Within a year or two, I had acquired this reputation for quality. Like, Pop is going to give us quality. Pop and Oka are going to give us quality. And that was very important to me. And I spent a lot of time sometimes trying to make something super quality.

And I found myself in a place after a couple years where not everybody understood what I wanted to do or where I was going musically. Because I understand music. Not like the average rap or hip hop producer. Who know just how to make cool shit. And I understand music and I understand transitions. I found like, you know, it was tough sometimes. It was tough sometimes holding myself to the standard that honestly other people set for me.

But I just felt like I had to live up to it. Even now, like, I still feel like I have to live up to that standard of quality that I've been on to provide over the years. How did your dad feel watching you succeed at this level? Was it a good moment between the two of you guys, or was it a weird moment? I mean, what is it like when your parents were in the same industry? My dad was elated. my dad is, first of all, my dad is so embarrassing, bro. My dad, it was, he's so embarrassing because he just talks about it.

He talks about me all the time, like, all the time. You could ask him how the weather is and he'll make the weather about me, which I just, I couldn't ask for any better love than that, you know. but it was amazing for him prior was when it was rough when I

when I when I went out when I when I dropped out of high school and shit like he wasn't feeling that he wasn't feeling that at all because he had done the same thing he dropped out of high school

and got into the service went to the service and I don't know he just and then again you know I was I dropped at high school, I was in the streets and stuff like that.

I just didn't, don't think he saw me heading down the right path. He knew I was making music. But he also knows that it's not Right. Huh? Was he right? I mean, if, you know, do you, if you were in his position,

I think he had every right to be concerned. You know, because of the environment that I was in and, you know, on True Avenue. in Philadelphia and running around with all of these dudes from

Chu Avenue and having them in the basement just banging out all of these songs. It was practice for me. We were each other's practice and those guys, to this day, some of my best friends, Robbie and sanity and I love those guys, they're my brothers. But we made each other better. They made me better as a producer.

But we was all a bunch of little knuckleheads, skipping school and staying out all hours the night and drinking and smoking or whatever the case may be. But I saw it for myself. I'm like, yo, we're down here. We're working. We grind in. And plus, this is making me better to make better bees that I could sell to get money

for culinary school. Well, you know. But I just also think my dad knows that it's to be where we are. People like yourself and me, like it's like one in a million, bro. It's not promised. It's just not a thing. It's not, like, it's not guaranteed. It's for sure not guaranteed, right?

So, I just think he didn't want me to be let down. Yeah. He didn't want me to be let down, and he didn't want it to be anything. Yeah, he just, he didn't want me going down the wrong path. So during that time, wasn't the best for him. he was worried for me but when he

saw that things were manifesting and that I was actually working towards something that it wasn't just a pipe dreamer he was he was exciting how did you get the nickname pop

I did the nickname pop I feel like there's like 18 stories for that bro um you know people I mean, basically, people just was calling me Papa

for a long time. Papa. I'm like I'm of Afro Latino descent. So Poppy is very was a was a was also another prominent nickname

and everybody's Poppy in Philadelphia. And then it turned from Papa to Papa Justify, which was my name for a long time, Papa Justified. And then it just turned into pop. I mean, I love it because it's like

there are a few classic people in the history of music like from like the 1920s. You know, there've been like a couple pops that have been really successful, but there hasn't you know, it's nice that you're a one-name guy that everybody knows who it is. Cool.

Real quick, you know, you have obviously this long list of famous people, but there's one, it's different when you, you know, again, start breaking an artist.

Like we've said in this podcast before, the two probably most important things to the music industry is when you break an artist or when you reinvigorate, you know, an artist whose career started as it was on the down. But, you know,

the Alicia, Akara stuff is it gets so massive and was really you know that that must have felt out of nowhere oh my God I mean how does it came out of nowhere to everybody else so my assumption

is even for you guys that's like yeah let's do some of these sessions but it's different when you have these two like you know you have a few songs on the album but a couple of them are just huge hearing scars to your beautiful and when you listen to here you're like oh that's where you know that eventually becomes sort of what Billy Elish does now

you know it's like here was really ahead of its of its time it was just a massive song how did it you know that had been a few years after Nicky but I kind of feel like this might be the biggest success after Nicky yeah

after Nicky it was a string of you know cool little like top 10 and like in the urban world, like top tens and number ones and BMI urban producer a year twice in a row. And, you know, I have a lot of those moments. But Alessia, I'm telling you, bro, this is really when I was like, I'd want to do like, cool shit. And me and Oaks have a thing about new artists because our career was built on new artists.

You know, at the time, they were new. And we were supposed to go work with somebody else that we were supposed to go do a camp for a huge artist. And then that jam came, Tad showed us a video, a YouTube video that had 300 views of this girl playing the guitar and singing. And I just, I looked at Ok, I was like, bro, I want to do this instead. Let's do this. This is fun. This is cool.

Let's do it. She looks cool. And she's like, she's untouched right now. Like, you know, like, let's do this. And Oak was still in the same way. And we went in and we did, the first song we did was Scars to You're Beautiful. First song we did with Scarce's To You Beautiful. They had, Alessia had it.

Like, Alessia and Sebastian had it. Like, the song was like, I don't know, like 75% written. It was, they had a song. and me and Oak just came in and produced it and like you did our thing to it and it was the first thing we did and I was like this is fun like this is fun

this is fun this is fun. Stars was the first song we did that week and then we did another week with her and at the end of our second week with her here was the last song we did and started with scars we ended with here and when I did what we did here

I knew for me like I was like this is the coolest shit that I heard in a long time, I don't, it's probably not going to mount the shit because it's so, so unorthodox. It was wordy. It was hard. It was like this sample was loud. We loved it, but it was like, whatever, you know. And, you know, like a month. She uses the word standoffish, man. She uses the word standoffish. It was like when I was just, I could, I was so excited when I heard that. Because it's like, you always look at these syllabic words that no one else is using. And that, I was just, ah.

Yeah, man. I want to use that. You got to use standoffish in your next song. Brilliant. That's crazy. Going into seeing the success in pop and hip hop, there's obviously a financial difference between a number one song and pop versus hip hop. Do you in your personal life see the difference in, you know,

success in genres and or does it not really do you get personally, do you feel different about a song that's number one at pop versus a song that's number one at hip hop? I don't know if I

feel differently because I put the same amount of effort into any of it that I do, right? But sometimes it's a little, it's sad. It's kind of, it's disheartening,

a little bit because it's like I live for rap you're saying I live for hip hop I live for hip hop and I live for soul and I live for R&B and all of that and it's it's just kind of sad to see

the difference and it's sad to see the difference it's like your number 30 pop song can amount to what your number one rap song you know what I'm saying like it's on a financial

Yeah, at least the radio. I mean, when it's streaming, it's the exact opposite. When it's streaming is the exact opposite. At this point in music. At this point in music. Things have changed. Things have definitely changed. Have you ever,

because of you starting off your career in hip hop, but obviously being able to do all kinds of genres, did you ever feel pigeonholed? You know, do people say, oh, pop, you've got to do this project because it's this versus like I don't think this is right for pop because he does that kind of music.

Did you ever feel any sort of you know pigeonholing? I'm sure they had those conversations behind closed doors. I know some of those conversations have gone back to me where people have been like oh well you know this A&R said they weren't really filling you for this project that we shouldn't bring

you and whatever. It's like everyone's tired of their opinion. It's funny because Oak love pop music Oak has a natural just he can just do it

and he does it so good right I come from rap me and Oak got together and became like R&B gods I don't I'm glad that that happened but I think

Oak saw me the ropes in pop music helped a lot. I don't think that anyone can pigeonhole me at this point. I think I've proven that I could kind of do anything. 100% While still doing me. I think I showed that with Alessia.

And I showed that with, you know, I was really, really humbled and blessed to be a part of Ariana to thank you next album. I think I showed that on that album. know, what I can bring to pop music while still being pop and still having my hip hop background. And if, and if I think with that and, you know, several other things that I've done, you know, on the pop end, I don't, I don't think, I don't think, I don't feel pigeonhole. I don't, I don't, to answer your question. I think people never be capable of doing whatever.

Yeah, no doubt. One of the biggest compliments that you can have. as a songwriter is when artists come back to you. And you have relationships with artists where they've come back to you projects later. And obviously, Alessi is one of them. And another one is Kaylani, who you've really been with kind of since the beginning. And she's just like, she's just, you can tell that she's one of those people that's right around the corner from crossing over to like the whole mainstream success.

But in the business, she's already there. I just get it. I just want to make sure she has some moment because you have like a really a connection with her. So, you know, tell me about your relationship with her. You know what?

She's outside of this music shit, bro. That's like, that's like, you know, it's like my best friend. She's one of my best friends. And, you know, I think that makes it, I think that makes it impossible for us to not have the music relationship that we have. I know sometimes there are people in this business who are really, really, really good friends,

but don't make music together at all. But with us, we're just so on the same page about music. My favorite songs are her favorite songs. And I think that's why we could come together and make so much music because we just, we identify. musically. Like, it's kind of, it's almost,

it's scary in a way. And we just, you know, we, we, we're on the same page as humans. We're on the same page as humans. And,

uh, it's just so easy. It's really easy when we create. Like we're creating right now. I like it. We're, we're creating right now. And you'll hear,

it's in. How's it going? Is it good? It's incredible. It's incredible. And I really feel like she deserves her flowers. And she deserves that cross. She deserves to be recognized on the mainstream level because she's incredible.

She's an incredible artist. She's an incredible performer. She's an incredible vocalist. She's an incredible writer. And we're making some incredible music right now. I love that. we're going to go to the next segment, which I'm going to list five people and just tell me what comes off the top of your head when you hear these names.

Let's start with number one. Nikki Minaj. All right, wait, so I say one word or what do I do? Whatever, there are no rules. I won't get mad. It's gone from one word to dissertations. So whatever you want. Okay, Nikki Minaj. The first thing that I come to my mind when I think of Nikki Minaj is her song, but I have nothing to do with Truffle Butter.

And I don't know. I think it's my favorite Nicki Minaj song, and I think it's just like, there's such a moment for me. And it was like, her verse on there was just like the perfect Nicki Minaj verse. It wasn't too much. It wasn't too little. It was just the right amount of punchlines.

It was the right amount of real shit. the right amount of rap. It was the right amount of flow change and the beat was perfect. Drake was on it. Little Wayne was on it. I loved that era. Her is that pink print era. I felt like that's when she was really rapping.

To me, I was like, my favorite Nicki Minaj raps was during that time, during that era, that pink print era and that song. When I think of Nikki Minaj, I think of Truffle Butter and I think of her voice on that song. And it makes me happy.

It makes me smile. It makes me miss her. Love her to death. That's my sister. Let's do Philadelphia. Oh, man. First thing I kind of my mind when I think of Philadelphia is Old City. When you say Philadelphia, I think of a neighborhood in Philadelphia called Old City,

which is where I lived right before I moved to Los Angeles two years ago. And it is the most historical part of Philadelphia as well. I love to Liberty Bell and Benjamin Franklin's house and all of those cool things is in these historic colonial houses and narrow streets and cobblestones and trees with leaves that change colors and apple cider donuts and horse and buggies and Amish people and farmers markets. And it makes me happy. That probably makes me happier than anything. That's the first thing that kind of my mind when I think of Philadelphia, because I miss it so much right now.

I haven't been able to get back because of the pandemic, but I'm, that's the person that cut of my mind. All right, let's do Oak. Oak. The first thing that cut in my mind is devil's advocate. Oak is the king of, like you said,

it was so crazy. I was with Oak last night just getting advice about several different things. And I'm looking for advice from this motherfucker, but then he'll give me the devil's advocate sides too. They just confuses me all the time. Um, you exist. So that is, uh, but I love that Oak wants to always, uh, teach me. Oak has always

been like, it's like Professor Oak to me. Like that's how to address him in my head, you know, um, give me, uh, as many different perspectives, uh, about one thing as, as he can, as many as he can come up with to help me, um, analyze all of them, you know, do the process of elimination and choose what I feel like is best for me. He doesn't just give me his own personal, selfish opinion about anything. Even when that's what I want from him, he gave me three sides, all three sides to the story. And that's the person. Yeah, he's so smart.

Yeah. That guy's real smart. He's incredible. Let's do, this is a two-parter because I'm adding a. sixth thing on here. But let's do this one. We'll do your mom and then we'll do your dad. First of all the thing about my mom is, um, my mom is always worried. Mom's always worried about me. She calls me all the time and be like, are you okay? The fires. I'm like, mom, the fires are like not, they're in northern California. I'm okay. But she's just always, I'm a baby, literally, you know,

her last born. But she's just so protective of me and my siblings, all of them. We're all grown in hell, bro.

But she, so I think of my mom, I think of protection. I think of, you know, safety. Anytime I, as soon as I step up my mom's house, I feel safe. You know, I feel safe.

And then he, is on and there is bound to be like a brownie, a pan of brownies on a stove or some shit, like an oatmeal cookie. You know what I'm saying? Like I just feel safe and I grab my cookie and I go sit on her couch. She feels safe knowing that I'm in her house. That's literally what kind of my mind when I pick up my mom. Let's go with your dad.

And my dad, what comes to my mind is ice cream. Why? Bro, every time I see him, he got ice cream in his hand. My dad loved ice cream. Like literally. They gave him in a part of Pennsylvania, and it's just ice cream, like local ice cream brand called Nelson's, and it's like the best ice cream in the world. And their freezer looks like a damn, like, a shelf, like at the Nelson's stores.

It's just ice cream everywhere. I think of my dad, in ice cream, my dad is hardly ever in a bad mood since I was little. Like, he is the most glass, half-full person that I know, you know, it's always that with him. He's always positive. He's always in good spirits, even when he's, you know, not in his best, you know, health-wise. or having a bad day, whatever the case may be, he's always just so positive. And he knows how to bring positivity

to any situation. So I just think of ice cream because I know ice cream makes him even happier. And he'd be having his ice cream. He'd just be in the best move ever, man. He'd be having his ice cream. It's hard to be mad with ice cream in your hand. Like it would be really hard to get in a fight

or something while you're also eating ice cream. Yeah. Like, you don't even... It's not that serious. I'm going to say that the sixth thing is cooking. Cooking. When I hear, where do I...

Home. Cooking makes me think of home. Being in Philadelphia, because that's my roots to cooking. Cooking makes me think of so many different things, bro. It makes me think of Benny, you know. It makes me think of Oak, who I cook for all the time. It makes me think of my best friends, Matt and Danny,

who I also producers, their duo called Sun Randoms. Makes me think of them because I cook for them all the time. It makes me think of my kids who I cook every Sunday. I invite a lot of people over on Sunday because there's so many people out here in L.A. who don't have family out here like me, like, you know, from here or whatever. And we all live off of the same shit, you know, lemonade and Bosanova and creation.

And, you know, every Sunday I take it upon myself to cook for this group of people who are a lot of creatives, songwriters and producers, and come over to my house and eat on Sundays. It's a thing. But I think of that. Cooking and I just think of like cooking is my end-all be-all. Think of retirement when I think of cooking.

Well, thank you for doing this. I feel like I could talk to you for hours because I really want to get into so many of these things and how you produce, all those things. And we'll definitely have to revisit this at some point. but you know it's so fun to actually get a chance to talk because I feel like

every time we've come across each other it's sort of in passing at some sort of event or something like that we had a really good conversation one time at Benny's at Benny's house one of one of one of Benny's houses yeah exactly

well it's just that thing if you look at your discography we have we've been on the same album probably four or five times where we've had songs on the same album. Wow. You don't necessarily get to know everybody who's working on the album. Just not how it works. Like you're in your studio.

I'm in my studio and then all of a sudden the song gets cut by the artist and then you end up with, you know, you're on a compilation of the 10 songs. And, you know, one song over, you're right there and I'll be over on this song or whatever it is. It's crazy. It's high school, man. It is. But it's really cool that, you know, it's just nice to catch up. And, you know, you're just such a unique person in this business because you've been able to really do all of it.

And not everybody gets to do all of it. But you do because you, like you said from the beginning, you have quality control. And I admire that, man. I have a lot to learn from people like you. I appreciate that. I think it's important, the quality control. And if I can just for anybody who, you know, I have to think for that is also my manager,

Andrew Luffman, Nsv, who, who encouraged that and instilled that in me and really, really helped me get to that point in my life. I think it's important. And it has helped me tremendously, not just in my career, but in my real life personally and mentally. So, yeah, man. Well, shout out to them. They also had a big impact on my life.

Love to them. Love to Benny. Love to Oak. Love to all the people around you. Love, love. Because you obviously surround yourself with the best, man. I like to think so. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Boa, boiwam, boiwepo, well, well, boom, wow, wow, boiwam. All right, we're done. There you go. I appreciate so for having you, man. I did. Let's catch up soon.

Please. Good luck on the. If you ever have or Mac or any of that leftover food, I might just swing by and grab a little plate. You should. I live in Hancock Park. What do you live?

I mean, I'm serious. I'm in Studio City. Oh, whatever. Yeah, man. Whenever. You need to come to a pop. You don't mean, Benny do pop-ups.

I would love to. I always know about them after everyone has posed, like feels like they post them. I'm trying not to go on social media as much. But if you have like a list of shit, I will absolutely do that. I will personally keep you posted about the next one we're doing for Thanksgiving and I think we're doing it with John and Vinny's.

Oh my God, yeah. Please, please, please, please, please. It's going to be crazy. All right, man. I'll see you then in a few weeks for that. Thank you so much for having me. Great talking to you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, Be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.