And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 126: Kara DioGuardi

Episode Date: April 19, 2021

Today’s guest is a Grammy nominated songwriter, former American Idol judge, producer, music executive and publisher. For the past seven years, she has been a Herb Albert Visiting Scholar at Berklee College of Music, mentoring the likes of Charlie Puth and Ingrid Andress. As one of the most successful contemporary songwriters in the world, her songs have appeared on more than 160 million albums. She has won over 23 BMI awards for most performed songs, including BMI’s 2007 Songwriter of the Year award. She’s had over 320 songs released by major labels, 150 songs on platinum selling albums, and over 50 charting singles. Her credits include successes and collaborations with artists such as Pink, Katy Perry, Celine Dion, Kelly Clarkson, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Miley Cyrus, Jason Derulo, Demi Lovato, Gwen Stefani, Carrie Underwood, Colbie Caillat, Enrique Iglesias, Rascal Flatts, The Band Perry, Darius Rucker, Fletcher, Faith Hill, Santana and many more. She discovered Jon Bellion and Ingrid Andress; who are both signed to her publishing company Arthouse Entertainment. Dedicated to giving back, today’s guest built five recording studios at Phoenix House, one of the nation’s leading nonprofits dedicated to leading individuals, families and communities affected by addiction from disrupted to productive lives. She also has an educational scholarship in her family’s name at the Columbus Citizens Foundation that provides financial support to students of Italian descent. In 2017, she co-founded Inspired Nation, a non for profit that creates youth talent shows across the country with all benefits going to youth oriented charities. She is an advocate for creating awareness and legislative reform around child sexual abuse. She is also on the newly created MLC (Music Licensing Collective) board. And The Writer Is… Kara DioGuardi!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. www.organtanthoridavis.com. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's legendary songwriter publishing entrepreneur,

world-class singer TV personality record label executive community advocate isn't just the Herb Alpert visiting scholar at Berkeley School of Music, but a genreless creator who has garnered 21 BMI awards, including a songwriter of the year award back in 2007. Obviously, there's a lot to unpack there, but what else would you expect from a Polly Siam major from Duke University turned philanthropist? Don't let this long-winded intro confuse you.

A number of our previous guests owe either their starts to her because they wrote with her, signed to her, or just plain old got good advice from her. I know because I'm one of those folks. For someone who lives all the way in Nashville or L.A. or Maine or wherever, this woman's imprint on the industry has been and remains extensive as she continues to welcome all of us into her art house. And the writer is my badass friend, Kara Diaguardi.

Okay, I was almost tearing up by that intro. That was so sweet. What can I say? And I'm so proud of you. Well, I mean, you just asked where I am and I'm in a house that I didn't have when we first met. And I know I'm just not the only one who met you along their path. And part of that is because I think unlike a lot of songwriters, you've never looked at somebody who has fewer credits as being less than as a writer. You know, you've, you've, like, you almost reach for that. Oh, my God. I think you have so much to offer. And I learned from every person who I met along the way. And especially the young creatives that were coming up. I loved being around them because there was a purity to them.

You know, purity to you. You were in it to write great songs. And you weren't jaded and you weren't coming from a place of I have to have hits and I have to, you know, you may have wanted hits, but you were in that phase where you still loved music and you were doing it for all the right reasons to express, you know, your truth. And I, when I would meet someone coming up, I just felt it was so important to tell them, like, don't lose sight of why you're doing this. You know, don't let the industry trap you into thinking you're doing it for them. You know, you're doing, why did you get into it to begin with? I mean, yeah, hits are amazing.

Of course, you want to be able to have the money to live on your music. But if your reason for getting up in the morning is so the phone keeps ringing and A&R people kiss your ass and all that stuff, then you've lost the pot. And when that started happening, for me that I felt like I was a slave to the industry and more creating because it's what the industry needed as opposed to what I wanted to create it or that I even really even wanted to create it all anymore than I knew it was time to reevaluate. Well, before we get to that, because that's an unusual, an unusual and unusually

enlightened a point of view for a creative. I find most creatives get lost in their their ego and their need to create their need to get have the light shine on them you know how you know you were raised in a family that isn't full of songwriters you know my assumption is that you were raised in a place I guess I shouldn't assume anything but you have these values that are unusual for a songwriter, which probably made you a very successful writer. Well, I was raised Catholic. And let's start there. Where were you raised? Okay, well, I was raised in Westchester, New York, which I was in a very conservative family.

My father was a conservative Republican, my mother too. and, you know, he's not just a Republican. He was a congressman, right? Yeah, he was. And, you know, it was very, my father was really strict. And, you know, you didn't speak about sex.

You didn't talk about sex. You didn't curse. You went to, you know, you went to church. But yet there was a real hypocrisy because my parents had an awful marriage. And there was, you know, a lot of digs at each other and all that stuff. So it was, I saw at a young age, the hypocrisy of being Catholic and going to church and, you know, saying, praying to God all week and trying to be a good Catholic.

But then during the week, not adhering to that. So at a young age, I was sort of enthralled by the truth of life and how people acted and kind of calling them out on it, which became very difficult as I got older and remains difficult to this day. I The secular music growing up or was it all religious music No, so I was a product of top 40 There was nobody in my house who was pushing the boundaries in terms of what we listened to

I didn't listen to the Beatles, I didn't listen to Zeppelin or the stones none of that. It was like Doris Day, Frank Sinatra You know, everything kind of from Broadway to the rap pack And that was kind of my introduction to music. Part of my family had been opera singers and a great aunt who was

my grandmother's sister used to be a pianist who played with like Charles Mingez, you know, was married to a trumpet guy. So my mother's side was super creative, super artistic, but they were all super depressed because they were wanting to be musicians, wanting to be, you know, doing that and couldn't make any money from it. And instead we're in like a stone business.

So we're in a business? Like a stone business. They made a lot of the big buildings in New York City they built, a masonry, you know, high-end masonry. So I grew up with my mother kind of being like, oh, God, music's the worst. People get depressed. They can't make any money. So she was very, very nervous of music. very, very, you know, wanted to make sure that whatever I went into, I could make a good living

out of an, and if I wasn't making a good living, I'm not even sure that was so important to her as marrying someone who could provide me the life that, you know, I would need. And kind of the way that she was with my dad, you know, my mother was a pretty woman who was very sweet and was sort of like a country club lady. She was a good mom and, you know, there to drive us to everything and, you know, cook for us and all that stuff. But she was definitely not someone who was like, oh, what are your dreams? You can do it. You know, you can make a lot of money for yourself.

You can do all this. And my dad was more the achiever who was the, you know, kid whose family came over on the boat. and he was the first person to go to college and was a partner at Arthur Anderson, first Italian at his age to make partner in Arthur Anderson, who was a real go-getter. So my parents had this kind of odd pairing where it was like my father was the achiever

and my mother was going to be provided for by him, and she would stay home and take care of the kids. So it was very much that model. And that structure, It's so traditional. So traditional. And that is the defining moment for me in my life, is that I watched my mother have to ask my father for money at all times and be beholden to him for every decision, anything she wanted. And from that moment, no matter what I did, money was very important.

The most important time. Junior high and high school? I never asked my, I had a job from the time I was 13, literally. Like, and I worked my ass off. I made my own money. I was entrepreneurial from like, you know, being a little kid, baking cookies, shoveling snow, whatever it was. I needed my own money so that I could have what I wanted in my life, make my own choices. Money to me was the ultimate freedom.

It was like, I can get what I need. and I'll never have to be with someone that I don't want to be with because I don't need to be with them. I'll be fine on my own. And that was something that colors my entire career. Beyond the fact that when I was little and I had this talent for singing, my dad would kind of, we'd go somewhere and he'd be like, oh, now my daughter's going to sing. And I would like almost throw up my food because I was said such. stage fright and he would call me out on it because it would like he loved to show off what I

could do and it was kind of you know um it just made me feel really uncomfortable as a kid and he did it a lot to the point that at around maybe seven eight nine um I just stopped singing I was like that's my gift and I'm going to use it the way I want to use it so I don't sing anymore um and that was a really hard decision looking back on it because I always sort of thought like I could have gone farther as an artist but I shut that side of me down because it was mine. As an adult, you look back and say had you not shut it off nine years old that that would have that that could have changed your trajectory. Because then I became then I then I then I sort of at that moment I was like what's everyone around me doing. That's what I'm going to be. But I had to shut

down because it could have become my dad, I think, you know, and I love him, but he would have been a horrible dad at your. It would have been really bad. He would have pushed me and pushed me and pushed me into it. And it would have been, I just know, I just knew as a kid. It wasn't, it wasn't right. You know, I would have been a showpiece. And, you know, he would be like, oh, we'll get her on Broadway. You got to take her here. My mother would be like, no, no, no, no, no music's not for her. That's, you know, you can't make any money. It's a horrible living. You meet drug addicts.

You know, it was like this sort of thing. And my dad was like, no, she has talent. We've got to, you know. And so it was friction for my parents. It was, I mean, what an interesting time when you think that your, your mom's side comes through jazz. And when you mentioned Mingus, in that whole era of jazz that it was filled with drugs, was filled with, you know. My mom was concerned. I don't blame her.

I mean, I think she was legitimately scared. Yeah, and that's the opposite of what you'd expect. If the side of the family that came through music, you would assume that that would be the one that would try to push you to do music. But it's the other side that found exotic that was really pushing you. Were you singing through, did you end up singing even to yourself in the shower? Did you literally gut it? All the time.

It's heard, memories, heard things in my head as a kid. was obsessed with music, just would sing all the time, all the time. When did you perform in high school or did you, and then just right? No, this is. I was like, you know, I'm going to law school. I'm going to go to Duke. I'm going to be like everyone.

I had two best friends growing up who were like really, really smart. One went to Duke with me, the other went to UVA and Harvard. And they were smarter than me, but I was scrappy. and their mother was like one of the first women to make law review. So there was so many issues in my family that I just went and lived there. And I fell into their kind of culture, which was, I am woman, hear me more. Like I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go to the best schools. And my mom's like, you know, amazing lawyer.

And so I... You completely moved away from your family? Well, no, I lived there. but I wasn't, I sort of wasn't getting whatever I needed, you know? And I knew that from an early age, that as much as I love my mom, I had like big dreams. I wanted to be something, you know, but I wanted to be it because I wanted to be it, not because somebody else wanted it for me. And, you know, as a kid, I think I just, I took what I was feeling and I channeled it into

to being like these people next to me that I admired, you know, that went for big goals and were independent. And, you know, my two best friend's mom, she made her own money. She had her own house. She did everything on her own terms. And I looked, you know, after the whole kind of thing with feeling like I was being controlled in my house to some degree. I looked over there and thought, you know what, I want to be like that. You're a kid. You don't know. You don't know your options. I didn't even know at the time that there was a there were songwriters. I just knew that my family felt very traditional in terms of the housewife and the provider and that that didn't feel authentic to me. I was never going to be beholden to somebody and asking them for money or not having

a say in things. That just didn't feel right to me. So I looked, you know, over what was going on in my best friend's house and I said, well, this feels more like me. This is like empowered and I can have a say in my life. You went to Duke, which is, you know, obviously a top school in the country kind of place and you're, you end up getting, you know, majoring in Polly Sai. You're still so far from music. Yeah, but it was it was the right, you know, it's funny. Sometimes finding out what you don't want to do is the path of finding out what you do want to do. So I went to the absolute wrong school. Like Duke was a disaster for me.

I mean, I was so depressed. I can't even tell you there was nothing about that school that I loved. And everybody who wanted to Duke was like, oh, it's the best place. You're going to love it. It's amazing. And I got there and the kids were so entitled. It was so Southern.

There was so much racism. It was so conservative because even though I grew up Republican, I was never a Republican. You know, I've always been an independent, even in my voting choices. Like I vote for who I feel, you know, is the best candidate. Obviously this year, we know who we thought is our president-elect is the best candidate, you know? Did your dad struggle with the fact that you were not conservative? I think, yeah. But, you know, once I got successful, people struggled less with me.

They were like, okay, she's not like a drug addict who's, you know, I think that was the big concern. It was like, you know, it was this world of like, if they're this, then they've got to be this. There was no thinking that you could actually be in music. You could have some morals. You could actually experiment with certain drugs and not be a drug. at it. It was just, it was just this kind of all or nothing thinking. I mean, I don't want, I don't want to, uh, go fast forward too far, but we once had a session. It was just you and me and we,

and I worked in your house in L.A. And it was, um, at the time it was, it was a very, it was a very large house. We were in one room and the lights were only on in that room. And you told me, you said, yeah, but your dad taught you that. that you don't, you know, why keep the lights on in the other room? You're just paying, you're just giving somebody else money. So that would have been their take on it because my grandmother was always turning the lights off. But the thing with that house is, first of all, I called it the rich prison. And I sold it probably quickly after. I had bought this really amazing old property before I got married. And I,

I did not realize that the moment I touched it, all of these things had to be done. So I had already demoed part of it and the city was like, oh, you have to do a whole new driveway up the hill. And I was like, and it was like some astronomical amount of money. So I had to renovate the house so that I could get my money back out of it, which meant I had to make it really big and really massive, which was totally not what I wanted. Well, and the other part of, you know, these were notes that I had for later on, but I think this will be good to lead into the music that maybe you started to release.

But, you know, when you would go to your business partner's house, Steve Finfer's house, you would stay in, like, in, you wouldn't stay in a fancy hotel. You, like, recently, you're talking about it. I know, I stayed in his little, like, by the garage, the room by the garage. Yeah, you would choose the girl, the room in the house that is that felt most like an apartment because that would inspire you

to continue to write from a place that's authentic to people who listen to music, which is again one of those unusually unique, enlightened points of view that most writers don't, they don't execute that well. They want to start enjoying the success and you continue to push back and be like, no, even though money is a focus for you, it's more for stability than it is for material. And I think that that's the uniqueness in needing money. You're a good interviewer, Ross. Very astute. So, you know, we had this big joke when I first started, you know, my early 30s when I had had some success. I had bought as an investment,

this place in New York City. And it was, it was really nice. But I wasn't. living in New York City. I was living in L.A. So my best friend was in this like really awesome condo with my car. And I had like a $20 a day rolling down window car living in like a not great apartment. And that was exactly where I needed to be because I think when you become, when you start worrying about your your possessions, you know, which you become. a slave to because everything takes time and money and energy, it drains all that creative energy. And at that moment, you have to be centering on yourself, what you're feeling, what you're

going through so you can create that and it can affect someone on the other side. So I really only bought nice things that I lived in after I started to not write anymore. And I really think there's a correlation to it. I could be crazy, but as being the seed starter, like the person who brings the idea into the room. You know, there was a point in time when I could really listen to an artist story and help them craft that,

but it wasn't me coming into the room saying, let's write this today. You know, so, and I think that's why, you know, sometimes you have these artists you love and then they get really, you know, rich and famous, and it's like they've lost a sense of the vulnerability that was in the other records. And, you know, I think you have to be really beholden to that purity and that magic

that you have when you're trying to express who you are early on. That's not to say you can't have an amazing career also surrounding yourself with the right creatives who are up and coming and aspiring because they bring such light and inspiration into the room. And then you can use the craft side of what you do. For me, once I hit that point where I couldn't, where I had to really, rely on somebody else in the room, it just felt it didn't feel right to me. And so I never really wrote, I don't really write with people I sign and I don't, I only get involved in something

if I feel I really have something that can add to it because it doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't feel, it feels a little bit like, oh, I'm trying to encroach on what they're doing, you know. So that's just personal to me. You know, I think there are many, many writers out that are absolutely essential for these young creatives coming up, that do amazing stuff in the room to realize the hip potential of a song. But I never wrote for that. I wrote because I had so much shit inside of me that I needed to get out from years of not being truthful to myself about who I was.

Well, let's go to that because you know, you leave Duke. Yeah. I got really so I was telling you I got I got really sick at Duke like I developed an eating disorder I was really fucked up and I was like this is this is all wrong whatever I'm doing is all wrong my body's telling me it's wrong I the people around me are telling me it's wrong I don't want to be like everyone here because I feel like everyone here is doing what they think they should be doing as opposed to what they want to be doing you know oh daddy has a law. practice, I'm going to be a lawyer, you know, and that's all fine. And that's a great path for people. And I'm not judging them. I'm just saying, for me, I was like, I'm being a hypocrite. If I just follow along what I think I'm supposed to do because, you know, everyone around me that growing up was such an A-type achiever and was going to be a lawyer or a doctor or all these things, and it's not who I am. So I just woke up one day and was like, I'm going to be a singer.

My parents were like, what? They were like, are you crazy? How did you know you were going to be a singer if you hadn't performed in front of anybody? Because by that time, now that I was kind of like not feeling great at Duke, I started singing again to myself. And I was obsessed with Mariah Carey, like, obsessed with her, just the way she could reach all those notes

and that she wrote her own songs and she didn't necessarily have an instrument, the fact that she could just write to a track or write. And I started feeling like, well, if she can do music and, you know, and at the time, I didn't even, wasn't even thinking about writing. But I just thought, I love singing. I'm singing again. And for me, it was a release of pain and of joy and of all those things. Like my instrument was my voice. It was truly how I expressed what I was feeling. And I hadn't used it in so many years. And I think that that's why I got so sick. I was denying a part of who I was.

So where did you go? I mean, to express those feelings you could have chosen at that point, New York would have been obvious because you grew up near New York. Well, I had to graduate. I thought it was really important to graduate because if I couldn't make it in music, at least I'd have a great education. And that would, you know, allow me to have a B plan. So I stayed in school until I, and then I graduated, and I went home

and announced to my parents that I was going to be in this garage band called Grandma Trips. Don't ask, they hired me as like the backup singer. And I had to do all the songs they wrote. And then I worked like three waitressing jobs. And one day I was singing and this like Italian guy heard me singing he was like, oh, you should be my partner. My partner's a manager. And I was like, oh, okay, I'll meet him. You know, so I met him. And he's like, I'm going to manage you.

And of course, I'm like, I don't know anything about managing. I don't know anything about, you know, what's going on. I just know that I'm going to, sorry. No, it's just. We need to get you a cooler ringtone. Is that so bad or what? I mean, that is really pathetic. I mean, it's just really.

It pretty much shows, you know, we just need, we can choose cooler ones. Or we should just take like one of your hits. So that way, every time you have to have it like thrown in your face. Just a reminder. By the way, if you come to my house, there isn't one sign that I do music. There isn't one. I mean, I'm a wacko. What can I tell you?

I'm a weirdo. I've like, I've had to trick myself into health my whole life. Like I've had to go like, nope, you can't have that. Because if you have that, that's going to lead to. this and then you're going to be in a bad place. So no, you can't do that. We've talked about that a lot about writers who have their accolades on walls and writers who have who choose to have nothing. But there's very, you know, it's not like, I don't know that many people who have one, one of their plaques, the plaque of those song they love most. It's not like that. It's like an all or

nothing thing. And I think they both have value, but there's, there's no question that one, when you step away from looking at, you know, your accolades, it's a lot easier to just be human. Well, don't you sort of have to have some accolades on your wall? I mean, come on, you are doing this podcast. Like, it's... Well, it doesn't... You know, I feel comfortable knowing that you have those up there. I'm like, okay, Ross is... Ross is really a... He's a big songwriter, and he's done great things, and I'm glad. Like, I know for sure. I like having them up because I think that those years of those struggles where I had like to me this is a reminder of you don't worry you're not going back to that time more than is looking at it as like wow look at what you've done it's more you're safe you know I by the way you're safe definitely safe Okay, so you're now a singer in a garage band.

You meet a random Italian dude who says that he's your manager. This sounds like this is going to weird. It's getting, yes. So then what happens is, you know, I get this call from somebody who was from Duke. and she was living in Connecticut working for her, I don't know if it was her uncle. And she pissed him off and got fired and she had no place to live. So she wanted to come live with me.

And at this point in my life, I have a lot of tragic things going on. Now I've decided I don't want to be in music, but my parents are getting divorced. My mother has cancer. So it's a very, very rough time to have a friend come and stay with me. But I convinced my parents,

to let her come. And she got a job offer at Billboard Magazine and was going to turn it down. And I was like, whoa, whoa. Did you say Billboard Magazine? She's like, yeah. I'm like, oh, my God, will you give them my name? Because then I can get my parents off my back because I'll have a job and it'll be in music. I can learn everything about the music industry.

I can do my band stuff on the side, get out of this waitressing stuff. And, you know, it would just be amazing. And I got the job. And that's when I started learning everything about the music business and what I needed to do to become an artist. I needed to put a demo tape together. I needed to get songs. And, you know, the whole thing was that, like, I was like 15 pounds overweight. I was living with my parents. I had a bad haircut. And I couldn't get anyone to give me songs. So I was like, fuck it. I'm going to have to write. Let's go. So at the time, you know, that I'd met this Italian guy was like kind of managing me. He's like, all right, I know this guy in the Bronx.

His name is Dave, and he does R&B music, and he'd be willing to write with you. And I was like, let's go. So get in a car, go down to the Bronx. There's like this Rottweiler or something. He lived with his girlfriend who was a stripper. I mean, this is like all new to me. I've like never met.

I've probably met like one gay person up to this point. And strippers and stuff like that. I don't know, but I'm like, let's do it. So we go there and, you know, to this day, I never saw the girl. I just saw her nails kind of come around the door, and she'd be like, Dave, like, I never saw her. She was just this, like, character in the house with the Rottweiler.

And so I went in there, and he was like, you know, I think he was, yeah, he was Puerto Rican, great guy, awesome, and incredible piano player. And I just started writing. He, like, touched the keys, and I was like, La la la, la, like started singing. And the songs were fucking awful, like so bad. They weren't about me.

They were about like what a guy that I liked would be feeling as opposed to what I was feeling. But God bless them. God bless Dave. He was like so encouraging and kept having me back. And I mean, have cuts that we know. Or was he just like a guy who wrote songs? Later on, he had some stuff go on, definitely. But this was the very beginning of his career.

And you were only. At this point, you didn't really then start writing until you're in your mid-20s. Yeah. And I went to places that I never, I mean, when I tell you throughout my career, the shit that I did coming from where I came from was like, I remember one particular producer and I don't want to name names, but we were working in Miami on a pretty big album. And I stayed at his house. and I went to get cereal one morning and I opened that up and a gun fell on me. I was like, what in the, I mean, I had to,

he got arrested. I had to get the bail bonds, the bail bonds and men, I don't even know how, still don't even know. He had his baby mama come in. They'd have attacks and fights. And I mean, I had never seen any of this and it was awesome. It was fucking real. And I loved it.

It was like my awakening to the world at large. What I had seen up into that point was privileged and white and, you know, there was nothing gritty, nothing real about it. And I was on a journey. I wanted to be surrounded by people who were exactly what they said they were and didn't disguise it to make everyone else feel like they were better. These were people who were surviving. And, you know, I loved that. It was, it was authentic. And I needed it for my soul.

and I thank every single one of them that put up with me because I'm sure I was like, what's going on? Like, this is crazy. But yet I loved it. I wouldn't have thought. How did you feel about being a, you know, I'm sure that this question will evolve a little bit as we go on. But how did it feel being a woman traveling to these places

versus being a man in an industry that still is, you know, mostly men. You know, did you have any issues or people generally speaking respectful? No, I had a lot of issues. A lot of lot issues. Where I went, it was like there were not women in these places. I worked with all men, all genres, all expectations. I mean, I had some real serious issues along the way.

One very high profile thing that if I had, and I did report it, but if I decided to pursue it, I just figured I would have been known as the girl who sued blah, blah, blah, as opposed to going where I knew I could go. And that for me was more important. It was like I need to show myself who I am and where I can go. Because that's the only way for me to get my esteem, you know, my self-esteem and to feel free of everything else that I, you know, came from.

So did that happen as you as an artist or I guess you know no no always as a writer and it was when I was starting out once I had some success nobody fuck with me. And I also I also learned how to create this sort of character who was really tough and had a mouth on her and was feisty and like people like people didn't want to deal with me because they were like oh she's such a bitch like you know she's whatever it was and I milked it because it was like in this stand back you do not. not want to come near me because I had to. Well, I mean, this is a loaded question, but why is it that people say that she's a bitch when, at least my experience from when I, when we first met, you were known as somebody who's like a boss lady. I don't know that I remember people saying that she's a bitch. Oh, but you were, first of all, well, okay, like remember now, what are we 15 years

in age difference. By the time I met you, it was a different story. Like I was more respected and people knew my work. In the beginning, I was like, wait, why are you getting production only when I'm doing all the vocals

and sitting here with the artist producing everything? And you're out in a, you know, whatever you are doing. You know, it could be a strip club, could be a, you know, on another call trying to get work. And I'm sitting here for hours.

I've given you the template for the record and that sort of stuff is oh, you know, she's crazy, she's a bitch, she's, you know. And I was like, oh, okay, so I'll start my own thing. You know, I'll start my own publishing company. Because if I'm going to write all the songs in terms of the melody and the lyric

and then pitch it and get it cut, maybe I should do it with people that are extremely talented that can leverage my name or what's going on with me and then they'll be in the room and they can write with whoever we're in. in the room with by themselves. And they'll have a career. You hustled, you know, to get to,

you have this manager. You're going into these sessions. Now, we've been skipping around. So that manager was so important in me, like, writing songs. Yeah. And, you know, like, I'm just going back and forth. And I think people can follow because, generally speaking.

They can follow you. Me? That's my job right now. So we're back. We're back. into this, you know, you've just been writing with these guys on this come up and you have this manager is putting you into sessions or telling you to write. But though, all that, that exists. There are, you know, thousands of people who are at that level. That's a different thing than, you know, you first start getting cuts, what would appear to be, you know, four years into you

writing and hustling through this. But then it starts to become almost immediately overnight, pretty big names, Ricky Martin and Kylie Minogue and stuff like that. So it goes from, I'm going to be a songwriter or I'm going to be an artist to at the time working with

really like the biggest artist on the planet. Okay, so yeah. So the timeline is like writing songs 23, 22. Wanted to be an artist and was, you know, put together a demo tape, but nobody wanted to sign me. And then people started

wanting songs of mine. I'd done my first stuff with this DJ guy. And one of the first cuts was, um, uh, it was, uh, of course I can't remember her name.

Oh my gosh. This is horrible. Okay, well, I can't remember her name. But anyway, it was it was a, Billy,

wait, I can't remember. Uh, uh, Billy Piper. It was a, Billy Piper was one of them, but it was, um,

Martine McCutcheon. Her name was Pee McCutcheon. I had my first UK hit because, no one would sign me, but then somebody wanted that song. So then I was like, well, whoa, what's this thing? Like I can sell my songs. This is interesting. I like this.

And again, I couldn't go to L.A. or I couldn't move because my mom was sick and I was taking care of her. So what I would do is I'd wake up in the morning, go to the studio to do my demo tape before work, work a full-time job until 5.30, and then go to the studio at night and then be taken care of my mom. So I had no life for years. I didn't go out. I didn't have a social life.

I got a boyfriend and friends, but I was never out partying. They were all young in doing that. And I did that for probably five years straight. And during that time is when people, I wasn't getting signed, but people started saying, oh, maybe we could use the song. And then when I was like 27, I got signed to a singles deal at MCA. and around that time, Larry Flick, who worked at Billboard with me,

who was a huge supporter, I'd given him my demo tape and he and said that it was a friend of mine who had done it. And he was like, this girl's really good. And I was like, no, it's me. And he's looking at me and they're like, easy spirit, you know, pumps running around the office going, there's no way it's you, but it was me. And so he gave my demo tape to Paula Abdul. And she was like, I really want to work with this girl, which was like amazing.

And then the song we wrote for her went on to beat Kylie Minogue's spinning around. And that's when I was like, I'm going to piece out on my job. I'm going to, I had saved like working at Billboard. They had moved me into sales. And I think I'd saved like $150,000 when I was 27. And I left. How did your family feel at that point? My mom had unfortunately died, which was horrible.

I had a horror. It was, my mom was sick for seven years and it was, I also think because I, there wasn't a question that I wouldn't have stayed with my mom. But it definitely was, you know, hard to kind of go all in as an artist. And I didn't want to be leaving her. So she wasn't alive when I did that. And my dad, the relationship was a little fractured because, my dad and my parents had gotten divorced and I was kind of left with dealing with my mom and my brother who was definitely depressed. And I mean, my family was a real mess. So it was a very, very hard time. And so when people will say to me, they'll be like, it was like one day no one knew of you and then everybody knew of you. It was like, oh, no, I've been working my ass off for years. I've been hustling like I had three jobs. I had a sick mother. I had so much shit going on. And when I got my break with the things that happened to create that break, I paid my 10,000 hours. You know, I paid my dues. You may not have seen it, but believe

me, I was doing it. And I wasn't ready necessarily, which is so interesting, because I didn't get kind of the mentoring. I mean, I got the, I didn't get the lyric and melodic mentoring. You know, I always worked with producers because I was trying to be an artist. and they love that I could sing. But I look back in my early records. And I mean, I look at my records and I think, you know, I may have had hits, but I don't think I was a lyrical, had lyrical prowess. I think that what I was was somebody who was just stating my truth.

And that really reacted with people. How did it feel to have other people cutting your songs while you were trying to be an artist? It felt like I don't have to be a bank teller. It's kind of awesome. Like, that's what it felt like. It felt like someone's going to pay money. So I don't have to like have a real job and I can really do this music thing and make some money out of it. Oh my God.

I love them. Where are they? Can I meet them? And it was the right choice for me. I am impatient. I don't have a lot of like, I can't do things for too, too long. I get bored. So writing songs was perfect.

It was like, oh, I'm done with that. Move on to the next one. Today, what do I feel like? What do I want to write about? Like, to be an artist and sing the same song over and over and over and over. And to have that schedule of getting up and like having to have hair and makeup and all these things that control you, I was miserable doing anything like that. I need freedom more than I needed to be that. In the beginning, you know, Martin McCutcheon and Ricky Martin and Kylie Minogue and.

Jessica Simpson You know, you start, you can tell that clearly it goes from this person's like, this person's a songwriter who's now in the game. But you start, once you have a number of songs with someone like Enrique, and these are all these people in their,

you know, their prime. Is there a moment where you start to think, do you ever start throttling back or do you know, do you start thinking that this is easy, you know, because once you start having that kind of, those kinds of hits, you know, you're not really worried or those kinds of songs or cuts. You know, my assumption is that you weren't as worried about survival at that point.

Or do you think that that once that's in your head, the survival sort of gene that it never stopped? I think that it's a great question. I think I think I knew that. that I was going to be okay. Like I was going to do this music thing and it was going to be okay. But I really,

and I would say this to all, anyone who's listening to this that's, you know, going to go on to have their moment. It's like I didn't have any respect for what I was doing. I didn't acknowledge it within myself. I didn't cherish it.

I didn't sit back and go, like, this is so cool. I just was like, like, what's next? What's next? What's next? Keep going. Keep going. Like, and, um, because it finally came. And like, from maybe early 30s to, you know, whether it was 28, 29 when I had my first hit till maybe, you know, I had songs on the radio up until a few years ago, right? I just never really, I mean, as it got older I did, but I never appreciated. Like, I never sat in awe and said, like, oh my God, that was, it worked.

Like that actually went on the radio, you know? And I hope that everyone takes a moment to understand that that is a huge feat. It is so hard to have a big record. And don't let it pass you by thinking that you got to do in your next one and your next one and stay relevant because people are going to try to replace you and da-da-da-da. It's like, that's what the industry tells you. But to have a record that people sing. to at a concert that touches their lives that's at their wedding, that's at their whatever it is. Like what a gift and what an amazing thing. And like don't lose sight of that because you think that

the industry needs to have 10 more from you. If you could go back to any era of you at that point and drop in and say, hey, relax for a second. This is an incredible moment. Is it when you win songwriter of the year? I mean, we could go through each song, but it would take forever because I think you literally have like 300 cuts at least. And then it's, you know, before we get to publishing and stuff like that, you know, all the BMI Awards winning songwriter of the year kind of thing. When in all this, if you could go back at one time and say, hey, you know, either from your perspective, say, thank you for working as hard as you are. or if you were to go back and say, hey, slow down. Yeah.

I would say it was this 2004, 2005, 2006. I mean, I... The way before, before, you know, rich girl for Gwen Safani and pieces of me for Ashley Simpson. No, that's about that time, right? That's about when you'd say like, okay, relax is when you were succeeding, and I don't want to say succeeding most, but like when you were having so many, you know, hits in a row, that's, that's the era?

Yeah. I would have said like, and that's when I was kind of starting up my publishing company and or I'd had my publishing company, but it started really, you know, I think at one point we were like number one independent publisher or something. I can't even remember, but it was, and I just don't even, I just never stopped to be like, wow, I did this, you know, to appreciate that. in myself. I think I've always been super hard on myself and super like my HR. There's no HR department in my brain. Like it's horrible place to work. Like there's no, there was no vacation back then.

There was no. It was like, you know, the way I, the way I worked myself during those years, like, no, terrible. HR department needs when you're much better. When your songs start coming out and you're in your 30s, because, you know, I have a similar timeline as far as my first cuts going in like late 20s into 30s and stuff like that. It changes the appreciation and also puts sort of a, sometimes when you start having success really young, you kind of feel like there's an entitlement attached to it. But when it happens later and you've already had a whole other degree in something,

you know, you just have a different appreciation for the opportunities. And it's hard to change those opportunities. opportunities down. It is and you, and you, you don't enjoy it as much, you know, and the other thing is that I didn't have, it's funny to say this,

but I didn't have a lot of women that I, I didn't have a tribe of women that were like my people. It was like maybe one or two, but none of the like women songwriters really, they were almost, they kept their distance from me. Or maybe they thought I,

kept my distance from them, but I didn't. You know, so there wasn't that tribe of, today it feels much more like people root for each other a lot. Or maybe that's fake. I'm not sure, but, you know, I think, I think that that's because of a certain generation of writers who are allowed who choose to do that. Yeah. And also, I think it's much harder to be a giant asshole right now in the business because people call you out. It's not to say that they don't exist, but people are, you know, people are louder now. when they don't like someone. And there was a long time

where people in the industry could hide because they were such assholes but people just... What are you going to do? Where are you going to go to let people know, don't work with that person, that person's a bad person.

And now there are certain people who have a scarlet letter situation where you know not to work with them because they... Some people are still going to take the opportunity but for the most part, we can easily name five to ten people that

another generation would still be at the top of their game, but it's much harder for them now because people warn each other. That's right. I actually think one thing I did do I may not have called out

some of the bad sexual behavior because in the beginning I wanted to go further and I didn't want that to be a cloud over my head. But when I saw bad behavior in terms of just being a total prick, I was very vocal about that very early on for some of the people who went down in the last five to six years because I wanted to warn other people about it. Yeah.

Well, we'll continue that part offline because I think that that's fascinating. it's part of our responsibility and you know as people who are you know who've been in the industry for a bit to look out for the next generation and and to have each other's back because yeah certainly the generation before you and the generation before them like didn't have anybody you know and and we just need to continue to help each other out but i want to get into the the publishing you know a lot of people say you've got to get into this. You know, you've got to start publishing.

You've got to start a record company. You've got to start a label. And most people are not prepared for it and shouldn't be doing that. But some people just have an inherent ability to find talent. Explain why you started Art House, assuming that that's the first publishing company that you started, unless there was one before that. No, Art House was formed maybe 20 years ago. So is that the first, that's the first publishing company for you, though.

That was always the amount of writers that you had on Art House and without going through all of them, your reach as a writer is so vast because of the publishing part of your career, not just you as a writer. I guess what makes you a good publisher and you know, why don't we talk about some of the people you've signed? You know what I really thought was important as a publisher

was at the time when I was writing and since my own copyrights went through my publishing company that I would put songs on a reel to pitch and sometimes I wouldn't even put like the names of it on there because if I were going to put my own there, I didn't want it to eclipse my writers. So I really believed in let's put them all on here and see which one, which one works. I have always felt a greater sense of joy when someone I believed in had a record more than my own. I can't explain it to you.

I just, I am like, it's just the best feeling in the world when someone you believe in, who you've watched for five years, not get any recognition. And then finally, all of a sudden, the industry kind of catches up to them. And they're like, this is the best person ever in the world. And to me, that is the best feeling in the world. And that joy, with that joy comes what I think is a purity. that is important to have in publishing. And the purity is that you get involved with it

because you truly believe that there are talented people out there. I mean, in my case, more talented than I believe I am, the ones that I sign. That's what I strive to sign. And that they realize their dreams and that that music goes on to ultimately, the most important thing, affect people in the world. and change in the world. And that to me is why publishing and music is so important. It's not just about like publisher of the year,

song of the year, this, that, and the other thing. It's about like the kid who is in his bedroom during a pandemic who's found this song that keeps him alive, you know, that keeps him from not going down, you know, a rabbit hole. Like, if we're not in touch with that, what the hell are we doing? Like that has to be something that is, you know, we strive for. We strive for putting that into the universe.

Okay, I understand we have to make money. We have to do all those things. But if that, I've always found that if you do things for the right reasons, the money comes. If you do things to honor yourself, like for me, like I needed to find out who I was. and music was my vehicle. I also wanted to have some money. But foremost, I explored through my music who I was. And in that, that set me free and the money came after.

Like the money was going to happen. I guess for some of these questions, we'll go to this next segment, which is what would John Bellion ask Cara DiGuardian and the writer is? And he asks you a few questions. Oh, wow. Okay. He says. Oh, John. Okay, let's see.

I'm Bellian. You know, like, he's obviously one of our joint favorite human writers that you've signed. So he has a few questions. He said, when did you recognize your ability to target talent at its early stages? That's one question. And then also, you know, being able to see that person's potential. When did you realize that you were as good at finding other people as you are? a writer. It's more just being in all of someone's talent. And part of it is like, wow, if my old self

had met you when I was your age, like I would have died to have written with you. And it's lines. Like the thing that Ingrid, Anderson, John Bellion have in common, like, you know, two people I represent right now is they have this way of lyrically saying things that's so different. Like I fell in love with Ingrid. She had this one song and she hates when I tell the story. But the lyric was, it happened with a spark, the one you lit to light your way, away from my foolish heart. You didn't see its start, but I caught fire. That was a line in a song from Berkeley. And I, and I kept, you know, I was like, I was, you know, when I first started teaching and there were so many students and names and I had you know I have terrible names but you know and I would get her name

wrong ingrid andres or whatever but I I was obsessed with that line with the writer who wrote that line and to me oh that's all I needed to know one line same thing with John loneliness comes in waves waves waves and melody and just his sonics and all that but just something that makes you stop doing whatever you're doing and go, what was that? That's me. That's the factor. Something different, something unique, someone who's willing to push the envelope, you know, and not just stay, not just give me a song, they think I want to hear.

But show me their truth and be bold in it. That's, for me, always been the most important thing. And I don't care about metrics. I could care less. I could care less if you can. Don't show me metrics. I'm not interested. I'm not in the picture.

When you're an indie publisher, that's a thing that is essential for any of us who are assigning people. If you want to go into, by the time you get to metrics mattering, that person's going to a publisher that's going to spend, a way outspend you. So you have to find, like if you're an,

a smaller publisher, you have to build it by finding people who are quality that you can help develop. Oh, yeah. Because there's no otherwise you'll always lose to somebody who's willing to flash an extra zero. Like, you'll just never win in that. But remember, like, there weren't really metrics

when I signed John. Same part of Ingrid. I mean, we're going back years. Like, this is just believing in developing people. So, you know, but today metrics are, you know, and back when, I mean, you know, whether it was Greg Wells or, you know, Ari Levine, like there were no metrics back then. I just went off of a basic, you've got something. Like, there's something, it's a gut and it's a gut and it's a belief. Like to be a, I think to be a publisher, you just have to believe. You have to believe when they don't believe. You have to believe harder and strong. longer for them. Now, that's not to say you can make somebody want something more than they want it themselves. I mean, that you can want it more than they want it.

But I knew, you know, most of the people I saw and wanted it. And then I've made some mistakes, you know, where they didn't, where they were so talented, but they didn't. I wanted it more than they did. And that is tragic. And it breaks my heart. I think a lot of writers still assume that it's going to, going to happen to them.

And that has never been a thing that's ever happened. There are a number of writers we know that probably had one cut that mattered, but they assumed that those opportunities would keep coming to them. And you can't really describe that, you know, go get them attitude. When do you know to, and this is a dark question, but when do you know to drop an artist? When an artist, when you're a publisher and you're signing people and you do another term and another term, at what point do you just say, listen, this isn't working out until you figure out what you want? Well, when they've recouped, you look at them and you go, like, what is this worth the bandwidth? You know, like, I'm pulling my weight.

You're not pulling your weight. And I'm not sure you want it anymore. And I'd rather, like, I don't have, I don't have that many slots. I'm going to give a slot to someone who really wants it. And that's, you know, that's the price of doing business. You know, you lose, you lose out on a few people. You believed in, you bet on them and it doesn't work out. But also, there's a whole psychology involved.

It's not just talent. It's like who can really get beat up and still stand up in the morning and want to go through it. You know, what I used to sign, you know, I used to be all talent. Now I'm like, hmm. I'd love to be all talent because I've made that mistake many times where I kind of thought they were so talented

but maybe really super sensitive or super, you know, I can only write when the moon is in line with the sun or, you know what I mean? That's going to happen. And then you go, okay, like I'm seeing a pattern here.

There has to be as much work ethic. There could be less talent and more work ethic. There's a, I'm just going to list a couple of the songs that Art House, because we can go through your songs, but one of the, art house is a separate thing. But Art House had, you know,

obviously with the Smeasington's in their prime, there was a lot of stuff in there. But, you know, nothing on you, just the way you are, grenade and forget you. And then Casey Livingston, Club can't handle me right now, and heart attack for Demi Lovato and want to want me for Dore. Rulo and obviously trumpets and monster and beautiful now all time low in memories and good things fall apart, graveyard, all those things with John Bellion, you know, Florida Georgia

Line Simple, more hearts than mine, Ingrid, so many songs and you can keep going on. There are publishers who have survived off of much fewer songs than that. Do you celebrate your successes as a publisher the same way you should be, that you, that you, when you say that you would have told younger you to celebrate these moments as a writer, do you take the moments now to celebrate as a publisher? Definitely more so now because I want to celebrate alongside the writers, you know? And this part of Art House is so much more meaningful because, like, before those, before the Smasingsings or before Ari Levine, you know, the first maybe,

I don't know, six or seven years, really, Art House was based more on what I did. And me bringing someone in the room and writing those songs. So whether it was like, you know, undo it for Carrie or, you know, that I wrote with Marty, Frederickson, but I was more a part of those and I didn't really celebrate those as much. And now I celebrate this way more because I'm not a part of it. I'm not in those songs.

and I want to call up my writers and be like, see, awesome, you did it. Always knew you could do it. You know, and this is awesome. So I feel like I do. I celebrate alongside them because I just, I want them to have that moment. And, you know, it's like being a mom. You can't tell somebody to have something. Like, they're going to learn their own way.

Right. I mean, do you celebrate it? I definitely I'm glad I have a wife who reminds me to celebrate things yeah so you know I think that really helps to to recognize

you know and it's like I have a song coming out in a couple weeks with one of our writers signed to unknown music and I'm so excited to for it for him more than I than I am for me. I mean, I have, you know, I have songs that have come out.

I'm more excited for him and the artists. Both of them are really excited for for different reasons. And for me, it's like I'm doing my job. But for them, it's like a chance to celebrate differently. So I do see that it has different meaning. It's not to say that I don't enjoy having, you know, songs that keep the lights on. but it's nice to, you know, it's nice to celebrate other people. I feel like I'd be amiss if I didn't ask a little bit about, you know,

if you were the last judge on one of these shows that actually did something. And what I mean is that a lot of the whole talent show on television stuff became where the judges were more, in a way, more famous. than the singers. So no one looked at the singers anymore. They only looked at the judges. You put yourself in a position of being a TV personality. That must have been, that's so unusual.

This is long before Songland, you know, which is doing its thing now. And it's, and it really, I feel like that was the last season where things, where you had it, where if you, won a show you actually had a chance to succeed. And now if you win one of the shows, it's really hard to be successful

because there's no apparatus to actually break an artist who wins American Idol or the voice. But at that point, it was the last time where they actually had judges who could actually help the singers.

I just want to know, we don't have to dwell on it too long, but you know, that's it. You've had a bit of a career working and some random TV shows. I mean, I think you're in The Simpsons and probably Sesame Street. Yeah, I mean, here's the thing with American Idol. I mean, at that point in the show, they wanted to, you know, change up the chemistry. I have no idea why, because it was perfect.

I mean, everybody loved it the way it was. And I think they thought, let's not bring in a celebrity, because if we're bringing a celebrity, it could be, it could really mess it up to a point where it's, maybe it's disruptive. So let's find someone inside the industry. I mean, and there weren't a lot of women, to be, you know, honest that were in the industry then. It was like me, Diane Warren and maybe Linda Perry or, you know, and for whatever reason, they chose me. And I had no idea what I was getting into. I mean, this was not a music show.

this was a TV show. This was like, this was about being a character, having a one-liner, you know, being a schick. And I, I, at that point,

like, it's been, you know, my whole 15 years, just trying to be me and, like, be true to myself. So the moment I got on that show,

it was like, well, I'm just going to, you know, first of all, I had a tremendous stage right to begin with. Like,

being on a live TV show in front of that many people, oh, I would be, sick for days before the show. Like just wake up in the middle of the night, like freaking out, oh my God, I got to go on the show. Did the other judges too, or is it just you?

No, it's me because they were all loved and revered. And I was like, you know, I spoke too long. The producers would be like, you're too herbose. You've got to cut it down. You know, one-liners. You've got to be more positive. You know, they would like prep me. And I was like, no, I'm sorry.

Like, I can't say that's great. So in the first, you know, year, I was sort of a little bit more under their thumb. And then finally I was like, I'm just, this isn't working out. Like I'm not really being as truthful as I need to be or being authentic. So it was a really, really tough, tough couple of years. I mean, the second year was a lot easier.

But I think Simon originally just wanted me to fight with Paula. You know, he knew I knew her and he thought like maybe we could have some catfights and it would be funny. And I was just never going to do that. That was just not me. I wasn't going to go after another woman or, you know, no. I wasn't going to compromise who I was for good TV. Never.

And like even after that, they would, when I, when I left Idol, you know, even dancing with the stores was like, oh, can you be, you know, it's like, I'm not a TV person. That's not who I am. You know, I'm not going to just do it to be famous. Like, that just seems so corny. I mean, it's just, you know what I mean? Like, oh.

It's so different than being in a small recording studio with, you know, whatever it is, with one other writer or, you know, whatever. It just is, it's such a different, their different expectation. It's totally different. And it's about, you know, TV ratings. It's a totally different thing. It's not about music. And by the way, I think it was a life-defining moment for me because I realized, how much I loved listening to young talent

and being part of their journey and mentoring. And that kind of came from Idol. Because back in the industry, someone would come into your office and you'd be like, oh, great, okay, I'll call your lawyer. You never had to really say anything. But now it was like, no, I had to say something. I had to give them feedback.

And I wanted to give them a lot more feedback. I wanted to mentor them, but that wasn't allowed. But it started making me think about, you know, wow, if you could really, really influence people when they're younger and mentor them. Think of how much better a process it would be for them. And that has informed me, you know, in most of my career now, where I'm signing such young people and where, you know,

I'm teaching at Berkeley College of Music and where I have a nonprofit that, you know, if youth are going to give of their time and talent, then any money raised goes back to youth who are in need. Like, to me, there's nothing. more exciting than young people and their power and they have a lot of power and they have a lot to say. Yeah.

Yeah. We're going to go to our because I feel like you and I can talk forever. Commercial break. Commercial break. We're going to go to our last segment, which is a five for five. I'm going to list five things and you just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Oh, boy.

Let's start with your husband, Mike. Soulmate. Oh my God, he can hear me. Are you there, Mike? Can you hear me? Oh, my God. He can totally hear me. Cozy, loves me unconditionally and gets me.

And fucking funny as hell. Funniest guy ever. Gets my kook and like totally the right person to marry for me to have married. Lucky as hell to have met him. Did you hear me, Mike? curious. See him? I take me to here.

Mike, you got a lot of compliments. You know what? We're in Nashville and he's moving furniture, but you know what? I said to him the other day, I was like, you know what? I just think you're the best person. He goes, oh, come on. And whenever we're like in Nashville, because my son's not with him,

I'm always like, you're just, I'm just so lucky I met. And he's like, oh, I'm going to throw up. What's going on? Okay, we're not going to Nashville anymore. Okay, how about Steve Fimfer? Let's explain. You can explain who he is. So Stephen Fimfer's my partner for 20 years.

Like the smartest guy and actually the most misunderstood person. He actually has an incredible heart and is loyal and fights for our roster. He's a hard-ass negotiator, but he's a softy under it. and he's been the greatest partner I could have. Totally misunderstood person. And I'm lucky to have him in my life too. We've gone to battle together. He's been there for me for years.

And he's like a brother to me. Let's go art house. Art house. Ooh, just an ever-changing organism, it feels like. It's like one year it's this, one year it's that, one minute we have this, one minute we do. It's up and down and all over the place and it's full of joy and sorrow. And it's just whatever everybody's feeling is inside this house at any time. You know, it's like everybody's songs, like all their lives, their sounds, their, their trajectory, their journey, all under one house.

It's like an amazing village. Let's go with your dad. I wouldn't be where I am today without him. He taught me how to work really hard. And whatever I didn't get from him made me who I am today. So while I wish we had had a more like the cozy relationship I have with my, my husband, where it's just I can share all my feelings. And I would love to have had a more close relationship with him

and to have been able to tell him how I felt. And to be heard, he really couldn't listen to me. He couldn't let me have a feeling. And but that made me chase my own feelings and have to figure out who I was and what I felt. Did he get to see your success at all? Yeah. Your mom.

I wish I could have given her that house on the water. She was a sweet woman, and I have real sorrow about losing her early. So it's a life is tough twice when you have your moments, you got to hold on to them. But it's very sad to lose a parent early. And especially now that I have a child. who's just like me and I realized how difficult I was as a child, like how that must have been really hard on her when she didn't have, you know, she was raising both of us by ourselves because my dad was working all the time. And I feel like I was, wasn't always kind to her. I was in my own

pain and I took it out on her and I have a lot of regret there. But I do believe she's with me. and I think that my career really took off in an amazing way when she passed and I believe she was part of that. I'm sure she'd be very proud of you. It would be hard not to be. You know, thank you for doing this. I know we've talked about you doing this before and this is fun to have you on. You know, you've gotten icon awards and humanitarian awards and all the awards that mean more than just this song got played the most in this particular year. And I think that's just says a lot about your career and, you know, the fact that I can,

that you have, you signed a couple of writers who've been on this show, says a lot about how you've been able to compartmentalize you as a writer, you as a publisher, and the fact that, you know, your family is as important. as they are to you. And, you know, you and I've talked a lot about all the things that come after a music career doesn't mean you're not still working in the music industry. You know, there's so many different parts to this life. And you always choose to live in such a, because you choose to live in your way,

it ends up being a role model for a lot of us who want to not necessarily live where at the end all you saw were the same four dark walls and two speakers. You know, you've lived in other states and other cities. You've, you know, you teach classes, you teach writers, you do a lot of things that are bigger than you. And I just admire that. You opened a lot of doors for me. I never understood some of the parts of the business. We sat down for one meal and afterwards.

I remember you, you know, recommending me for some consultancy things and I'll just, you've looked out for me and I'm not even one of your writers. So I can't imagine for all those people who were fortunate enough to sign to you early on, you know, it makes sense why they like you so much. Well, I'm really, really honored to be on this because it's become such a great vehicle for people to understand what being a songwriter is, what it takes, and hear other people's stories. And you are somebody who, you know, is doing the same thing with making sure that you're doing more than just writing. You do a lot of things for young writers. You do, you know, whether it's

being on the board you're on. And I, and that's why I think I've always really loved you, because you see that there's more out there. And I think when you're tapping into just, you know, the last thing we can talk about is like, you know, don't be afraid to move past being a songwriter. You know, there may be a day when you don't want to write anymore or you've said everything you want to say. Or you want to write and not be in the, be competitive,

you know, where you're being looked at for another hit. You want to take a, you want to do something different with your life. You know, creativity can be so many different things. And I think that's, that's what I've had to, come to terms with is that I don't really want to write songs anymore. It's not joy for me. There's no joy in it for me. It just, it feels like, oh, I don't know if this is good enough. It's, my creativity has kind of exhausted that vehicle. I love now doing other things and I've allowed myself to do it. And I have to remind myself that I have the right to be something

different at any given day. I love it. Well, thank you. There you go. Thank you, Ross. Love you, dude. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us.

You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.