And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 129: Ross Copperman

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

Today’s Grammy nominated hit songwriter and mega-producer guest, has been the man behind a decade of sound, helping some of the biggest artists in the world use their voices and he is now returning to his roots as a solo artist. He is a 4x BMI Songwriter of the year and has penned smashes that include 30 No. 1 songs and other chart climbers for stars including Keith Urban, Luke Bryan, Blake Shelton and Gwen Stefani, Darius Rucker, Kenny Chesney and P!nk, Dierks Bentley, and so many more. Our guest has also produced acclaimed and GRAMMY-nominated albums for Urban, Bentley, and others. Now focusing on his own artist story, today’s guest is releasing his EP, Somewhere There’s a Light On, a five-song collection of his shimmery Southern pop. Featuring back-to-back singalongs and our guests’ ferocious musicality, the EP is radio-ready piano, staccato percussion, synths, snaps and smooth vocals, with country music’s love of cohesive narratives. He co-wrote Somewhere There’s a Light On with favorite collaborators, including a pair with Ed Sheeran. And The Writer Is… Ross Copperman! Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. Hey guys, for all of you are still on the come-up,

there is a new Music Academy in L.A. And it was launched by our friends Stargate. Who's Stargate? If you don't know Stargate, go back and listen to the McKell episode from Season 1. 1. McEl and Tor have produced and written 10 Billboard Hot 100 number ones, including some of the biggest records for Rihanna, Beyonce, Colplay, Sam Smith, Katie Perry, Wiz Khalifa, et cetera, et cetera. They're amazing. I wrote my first number one song with them too. This is called LAMP, Los Angeles Academy for Artists and Music Production. It's brand new. It's a one-year high-level program with

world-class mentors with some of our guests like Justin Tranner and Emily Warren and Charlie XX plus people like Neo and Circuit. These people are already going to be part of this program. They will handpicked 15 producers, 15 songwriters, and 15 artists who will collaborate and learn from the best in custom built studios in Santa Monica. They have applications open right now at www.l-a-a-a-amp-music.com. That's www.lampmusic.com, lamp with two A's. Go check it out. This is an amazing opportunity, and I'm so proud of these guys for putting it together. So good luck with your applications, and here is your new episode of Anne the Writer is. Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's living legend has,

the greatest first name in all of music. But that's not it. He's a mega producer who has dominated country music with 29 number one songs. He's won BMI Songwriter of the year 50 times or something like that. He's been nominated and won all of the awards country music has. I guess that's why this man with a decade of brilliance behind the boards is returning to his roots as the artist himself. From VA now Nashville, this producer brings an optimism so darn infectious you cannot not write a sick song with him.

He's genuinely one of the nicest people I've ever met in the business and the writer is the other Ross, Ross Coperman. What's up, Ross? The other Ross. Yes. This is so long coming, man.

I am so stoked. Me too, man. Me too. Okay, so let's... That's been a running joke for a long time between me and you, man. The other Ross. Well, it's... Did you grow up knowing any other Rosses?

Have you met other Rosses? There was one other kid in, like, my whole city, like, that I knew was named Ross. And I thought that was the craziest thing. There's not many Rosses. Really, Rosses. Ross and friends kind of screwed up the whole thing because it was so out there until there was Ross Geller. That's true.

And every time you meet a Rachel, it's always like, oh, Ross and Rachel, right? There's some picture. I have some picture from like, this has to be like, you know, 2008 or something. And I was at a, at a bar. And the guy's, the guy who was a, someone introduced me to somebody. He's like, my name's Chandler. I said, you got to be kidding. Because I'm Ross, and they go, ha, ha, ha.

And you're like, no, no. My name's Ross. He's like, I'm Chandler. And he's like, and he says, hold on a minute. And he went and he got his friend named Joe. And there's a picture of me with some random dude named Chandler and some random dude named Joey. And it's just like a solid moment of. That is amazing, dude.

Part of the park. Part of the park of being a Ross man. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So that's definitely how this interview started. You know, I guess before we get into anything, I just want to start with some random segments. Usually we go straight into your story, but I got a lot of segments. So this first segment is, what would Ashley Goreley ask Ross Cofferman on and the writer is?

And he says, oh, I got to ask the Ashley question. I had one. I had it. I had it ready to go. Because he asked me a question yesterday. That was a pretty funny question. Really? Sorry, sorry.

Well, I kind of want to know what that is. But he said, now that you have a record deal, do you find yourself able to put your ego aside and write for others? Or do you just hold everything for yourself? Ashley said that? Yeah. That's so funny. You know, my first priority is always to get cuts and it's always, it's always,

been to have as many people hear a song as possible to reach as many people as I can. And I always realized the way to do that is to have, you know, Kenny Chesney or Keith Urban or like Sheldon, Dirk's Bentley, have Gabby Barrett sing a song, you know. My artist project is really awesome. It's been such a catharty process for me. And I think the right songs organically find their way to it. I've never want to be one that's pulling a song from here or there. I never want to do that.

That's not what I set out to do, you know. Well, in this next segment then, Keith Urban asks on what would you ask Ross Copperman on Ann the Writer is? He asks, do you- Is this real? Yeah. This is real? Yeah.

This is amazing. Keith asks, do you live the advice in your own songs? Wow. trying to think which song I don't. I'm a total wreck of a person, to be completely honest. I really am. I'm a mess. And I listen to my songs a lot, and I think, God, I can learn a lot from those songs.

And that's part of the therapy of what I love about songwriting is that it does help to improve us. And it's a great outlet to spew all these things into these songs. And then maybe you learn something from them yourself. So I could do a better job. A song I always referenced for that is a song called Living. I wrote for Dirk's Bentley. It's just about kind of life is short and let's get out and live it.

And Dirk's is the best about that, you know, never taking a second to just be idle. He's always skiing or hiking or doing something. He sent me a picture the day he went in his airplane. He went airplane camping, which I didn't even know was a real thing, where he flew to like another town and just camped on the runway. and he's just always doing these great life experiences so that song in particular and him have been a big inspiration to live out i envy that personality like crazy that idea of me too me too wrong yeah it takes somebody who's not who's willing to step away from the studio and believe that like that that the life experiences are worth the same as whatever another hit is worth that's right and i say so you

struggle with that too. That's my biggest struggle. We're going to get to all of these things. I like that. I'm stealing some stuff from what you're saying, but in the spirit of more segments, this segment is, what would Luke Laird ask Ross Copperman on Ann the Writer is? And he asked, who's a better basketball player, Ashley Goreley, or Luke Laird? Apparently you guys have a basketball. I think. which makes me then think like, okay, so it's important when you're talking about life experiences. That's what made me think of this. So what's the answer?

Oh, gosh, I feel like I'm in trouble for either answer here. They're both really good in their own ways. Like, Ashley's just a smart player, as he is with writing. He just wants to dominate every aspect of the game, and so he's just smart. But Luke has the swag where he could drive to the hoop and kind of, I think Luke could always score on demand. Are you good? I'm definitely the fastest. I'm like a streetballer.

Ashley always says I'm like, I don't really know how to do run plays and stuff. I just kind of play streetball. I never really learned how to play properly. It helps. I mean, if you keep playing, then you figure out some of the, you know, triangle offense.

Yeah. Yeah. In this next segment, I've never done this, but I don't think we've had so many segments to start a show, but I figure why not? This is great, man. You're my peer, man.

Like, you're my other Ross. I got to. So what would Shane McNally ask Ross Copperman? I mean, the writer is. Shane says, do you like me or Ashley Goreley better? That's which is a very similar, but different question. I just think that's funny. I actually wrote with the two of them yesterday.

It was my first in-person right and felt really good. Ashley forced me into it. I've been super not seeing anybody, but my God, how do I answer that question, Ross? Okay, we'll go to another one. I'll say, you know. How do I answer that question? It's a tie.

They're very different writers. It's a definite tie. They're both different. And I feel like they're both two of the best that have ever done it in the history of songwriting. I mean, back to back in the early days. You know, like those two are two of the best. Like, I'd say top five historically.

You know, not just of our time, historically. I think that's hard for people to recognize when you're living amongst grades. But in a room like that, you guys literally have over 100 number one songs. It's so funny. Yeah, it's hilarious. What were you doing? What were you guys ready? I don't know why they even want me there because between the two of them.

You know, when you're in a room with those two, two. guys, you just kind of shut your mouth. You find your place and you just realize, like, there's nothing I can do. These two are the two of the best lyricists and top line that I've ever done it. And so I kind of just watch and learn, you know. Do you have imposter syndrome? Oh, constantly. The more success you have, the more we've talked about this before. Yes, but not on this. And when you say I'm a, a mess talking about, you know, do you live the advice of your own songs and whatnot? And you said, I'm a mess. But, you know, you're in a room with to Luke, Shane, Ashley, Keith all responded very

quickly to make sure that they had questions prepared for you. You know, none of those people are too, too shabby. Why don't you feel like you belong? God, Ross. This is a like this could get me emotional. This is, goes back to childhood, I guess, man. And just, you know, I was the guy in high school and an elementary school that I was always in the talent show. I was always the guy that got third or fourth place. I was never the guy that got picked to like go to state choir or got cast as the lead in the play. Like I was always like in the back of the play or like my band didn't win battle the band.

We were like third place. Like I got kicked out of my band in high school. They wouldn't let me write songs with them. I was like, they're like, Ross, we got it. We got it. I'm like, I got some ideas.

What about this? So I was always that guy. And so I think I just kind of took that from my childhood. And it's kind of what's kept me youthful and driven and always wanting to prove myself. And the more, the more success I have. have and the more things that happened, I just feel like, wow, they're all going to find out that I actually don't know how to, I don't know how to really EQ a guitar or I don't, I'm in the studio

with Keith Urban once. And he was like, hey, can we like make this guitar stereo? And I didn't, I didn't really know how to do that. I didn't know how to drive. And I was like, yeah, sure. I was like, try to do it? And he was like, okay, I don't, I don't know if you know how to do this, do you? So I just, you know, I've just kind of figure it out as I go and I kind of, I just, yeah, it's funny. It's my life struggle, man. When did you? I think if you asked Ashley you're saying the same thing, they'd probably answer the similar, probably. Yeah, I think a certain amount of failure is not bad for creating an ambition because you feel like you have to prove something wrong.

I think a lot of people who are... Yeah. It's why the football stars, you know, still live at home working at the same place because they were so successful. Yeah. And why the kids that didn't quite get there when they were younger are, you know, on the Zoom.

It's also a beautiful side, though, because it makes you just do things in a creative... Oh, I'll just do it like this, because I don't know how to do it that way. I don't know how to properly EQ it, so I'll just throw a crazy filter on it. It'll sound cool. and it would be like, how did you get that sound?

I'm like, well, I didn't really know how to do it properly, so I just made it sound like that. But there are a lot of people who do that who, who, you know, a lot of people don't know the skill set who aren't successful. And there are a lot of people who do know the skill set aren't and aren't successful. What is it about what you're doing that seems to work?

I think, I think my main thing is just heart. And if I, if I can't put my heart into it, That's what I, I feel like I bring to the table in writing is heart and emoting. I try to bring like a melody or a progression or an idea that just emotes a feeling. And I feel like that's always been my thing as bringing that. There's a long way to get to the beginning of your story. But what was the first instrument you played and when was it? It was banging on my upright piano when I was three or four years old.

according to my mom and she's my you know my mom the one that said I was the greatest to ever do this and then the best looking she just said you looked like tom cruise and brad pit and i look back at my pictures as a kid and i did not look like tom cruise and brad pitt i looked more like yeah everybody called me the guy from goonies um what was it um not sean askedin a copper pot or copper pot ross copper pot you whatever you must have got called that too right Copper pot. Oh, no. Yeah.

Wait, so, when did you, did you start writing right away? Were you like, was it one of those things where you, it said, I hated practicing. So I was like, as soon as you play this, the first eight measures of something and, you know, that you're practicing on piano. You're like, that would make a great, that'd make a great song. And then you just start writing. I never thought like, I never thought like that. I wish I did.

I hated practicing. I fought with my parents constantly. They made me do it. And I actually ended up being a classical piano major, James Madison. Thank God I did it. And I took a songwriting class in college. I always dabbled in writing in high school, but never was really good. And then I took this class in college where I was taught the form of a song and how to do it.

And I fell in love with the process. And then, fast forward, I was a huge John Mayer fan. I went to his show in Salem, Virginia. and I super creepily followed him to a restaurant after the show. It was right before he blew up. And I saw him sitting down. I walked up to his table and I said, Hey, John, I'm your biggest fan.

And he said something slightly vulgar to me in a joke. But he then asked me to sit down and join him for dinner. And he told me to buy this book called Writing Better Lyrics by Paterson. And that book really, that moment really changed my life. Just being with my idol and him suggesting this book. And I dove into that book. And it just, it started it all for me. I became obsessed with the process.

I don't know that book. What about that book is so special? You know, it was the first time I'd ever thought about lyrics. I grew up as a kid listening to 90s rock. And I didn't know what half the songs I loved. loved were about. I just never listened to the lyrics. And even now, when I hear a song, sometimes I don't even listen to writing country music the past 15 years will change that about you. But it's the first time I really thought, wow, lyric, like I never thought about it like that.

Forming proper, you know, telling a story. And that's what then led me to fall in love with country music and move to Nashville. Yeah, I mean, that's a big change. When you're in bands in high school, in the 90s and you're a couple years behind me but you know it's it's just post grunge and this was when bands actually were on radio it was like when bands were you know it was fun to be in a band and it was cool you could kind of write weird music and be on the radio you could have music you got weird chord changes and and all the things um and they didn't enunciate their lyric like you years later i found out what certain lyrics were that i thought were something else my whole life yeah what kind of music in that world of before you get to the nashville thing

when you say you were in battle of the bands and you got third place what kind of music was you know i i think pearl jam and third eye blind were like the kind of things that you know that the bands that I ended up being in before I went to college. Too. You're your project, which I really connected with, and that's why I loved your record so much because it just, it was so nostalgic for me because I could hear those influences in your music. And I remember texting you when it came out because it just blew my mind.

I hadn't heard anybody do that. That authentically in so long, they're not blind. It's just one of those bands. I just used to run down the highway. shouting those songs, dude. And that's part of where I learned, like, feeling. Like, I didn't care what those songs were about. I just knew that it made me feel, and I just loved everything about it.

Radiohead, man, like, Led Zeppelin. Like, I just, God, I used to drive around feeling so cool, listening to John Bonham, smash on a pair of drums, like, ruin the windows down. Those songs just made me feel alive. And I just loved that youthful. feeling when falling in love with music for the first time. That's what I was listening to. Were you in bands in college or were you already starting to do solo music? I just started to do my own solo stuff in college and I formed a band with a couple of dudes

that I was friends with and we started playing college and I had an X-Dara and I got a trailer hitched to the back of it and we were opening for better than Ezra. We were like, driving in my exterra, sleeping like on the beach in Charleston, playing the venue there, driving up to Virginia Beach the next day, sleeping outside the venue. And some of the best times in my life, I learned so much doing that. Anecdotally, have you written with Kevin Griffin since? Kevin, I have. He's one of my favorite people, man.

I was the biggest bearer than Ezra fan. Those songs just were everything to me. He actually produced my first EP, Kevin Griffin did. I had a demo deal on Columbia Records with Brian Maloof. Kevin produced it in New Orleans, and I brought my band down to New Orleans. My bass player went missing for literally 24 hours. We didn't know where he ended up and struck.

Stumbled into the studio the next morning. We're like, dude, this is like, where are you at? We're supposed to be making, we're going to be famous. But yeah, this. Was that the. goal at that point? I mean, you know, God, don't you remember that feeling of being a kid in a band

and just, you just wanted to play Wembley, man. It was just like, it was everything. Just, I just wanted to, I wanted to be a rock star, dude. It was, yeah. Signing with Brian Maloof, having talked to him in forever, cool dude,

great mixer. Yeah. You go from being in college and you're opening for, bands. I get that trajectory. But again, a lot of people are entering bands and don't get signed to Columbia and there's not a budget to do a recording. They don't get the lead singer of the band they were just on tour with to produce their record. How do you get noticed by Columbia Records? That's a great question, man. I started in college, I would go to the bitter end. I became obsessed.

As you notice, I'm a very obsessive person. And I became obsessed with songwriting. So I'd go to the bitter end in the village in New York. Once a month, I'd drive up to New York and sit in and just watch songwriters' rounds. And then ultimately, I convinced Ken, who ran that place for a long, long time, to let me play. And so I started playing there once a month. And A&R guys and girls were coming out to those shows. And Brian was one of those.

He came out to one of my things and heard some of my, I've really bad songs and offered me a deal. And then I met Evan Lamberg. Evan flew to my house in Reno, Virginia and sat at my piano at my mom's house with me and gave me a deal with EMI publishing probably when I was 23 years old. It's so crazy. I really want to make this not about me and I do this sometimes. but like I literally the first person that I met was a publisher who came up to me was Evan

was Evan when I was 23 years old. Are you serious? Have we talked about this? We haven't, but I had just done the same thing. Just recorded my first album and like met him. I didn't end up signing with anybody at the time. I was really afraid of publishing deals, you know? I wish I wasn't.

I think that's a big mistake when people are like, hold on to your publishing, hold on your publishing. It's like, no, publisher's out. actually serve a purpose. They actually can help open doors. But at the time I was like, no, I'm going to hold on, hold on. I had a record deal already. But I just remember Evan, you know, those people who continually find themselves being the first person to talk to an artist are the ones who, you know, that's why Evan is who Evan is, you know. 100% man. I didn't know that about you, Ross. That's crazy. When, uh, you get, you know, you go through this Columbia thing, you record.

this album that still isn't the one that comes out in right that's not yeah yeah so how did you deal with the fact that you know here you've gotten third place you didn't get sent to state i mean all these things are super relatable you get you open for better than necessary that's a big deal you get the the you know you have the shot and um and what happens like what happened God, you're right. I didn't even think about this, man. I've never even thought about this until just now. That record never, those four or five songs never came out.

And they were great. And so I guess I went back into another year cycle of touring colleges and just back to the grind. And then ultimately I met these guys that started the label called phonogenic records. And they had signed Natasha Bettingfield. And they brought me out to Topanga Canyon. laid for them in their living room. And they gave me a record deal. They said, hey, you want to move to London?

And we're going to sign you to Sony in the UK. And they signed me and the script at the same time. Me and the script had the same lawyer, Fred Goldring. I'm sure you know. And I moved over to London on Easter Day with a guitar and a suitcase into a little flat in West Kensington. And didn't know anybody. Didn't know.

Why would you do, I mean, your band, I assume, didn't go with you. No, it was a hard moment. I had been grinding with these guys for two, three years. And yeah, it was the time. It was like, guys, I'm sorry, I got to go, I got to go do this. So did you go there to record the album? I recorded half of it here. I already had it done with Micah and Lori Wilshire,

who were these two producers that I worked with. I actually went to my same high school in Virginia. and then I went and did a couple songs with Guy Chambers there. You know, hindsight's always 2020. I wish I could go back. I would have dug in so much harder on the songwriting. I was young and dumb and thought that my songs were great and they weren't. And I just, I didn't listen when I should have listened to people.

I should have written with more people, you know. But I wouldn't be where I am now. I'd probably be still over there living in the, who knows where I'm. I'd be doing. It teaches though a little bit when you're producing artists and you're, you know, because you come around these artists who are really young who have an ego. You're like, man, my only job is to make you the best artist you can be.

Trust me, I was, I had that ego and I also worked with the same level producers. And I saw it happen when I didn't, when I didn't listen. And had I listened, you know, I can't tell right artists enough. Also, just like write, right, right, right, right, right. Right every day that you can because some years would go by and you'd be like, I already have the 12 songs. I have the 15 songs. That's how I was feeling.

That's it, Ross. What happened like when, when that, but that album came out. That came out. It did fairly well. Yeah, I had two top top. 20 hits in the UK. I was touring around playing big, big venues with McFly. And I played a show with Mark Bronson and Amy Winehouse and Lily Allen and Corinne Bailey Ray. And I was doing cool things. And it just kind of two years happened. My second single kind of didn't do as good as the first

single. And it was like, okay, let's try and take this to America. We couldn't get a label in America to pick it up. The label had spent so much money on shot four music videos. It was one of the last record deals where they were just throwing money and they couldn't get anybody in the U.S. to pick it up. That was so high. I was like, you know what?

I'm kind of burnt out. I just love writing and producing. That's kind of what I want to do with my life. It's so weird because you're, you know, the discography is, it's the, you have the three albums that come out in the 2000s, you know, in that decade. And you're an artist who's like,

focused on being an artist. You're doing the touring. I'm sure that, you know, enough money to keep the lights on. Probably not enough to buy the house. And it's like you're putting more money into touring and your show than you are into anything else. Exactly.

And like you said, if you go back, you'd tell yourself, just focus on the writing. That's the only thing that you can do. All you can do. When you look at, do you

do you look at young writer it's easy to look at young artists and tell them man you should focus on writing when you look at young writers who are in their 20s do you look at them and feel like just focus on writing also or do you sometimes think like man you have a skill set you should be an

artist oh wow no you know what I when I feel like a writer does have that skill set i tell them and you know i remember with shane mackinalli we were writing with maren morris she just wanted to be a writer and me and shane were like man you should really think about being an artist like you nobody sings like you and and we i remember really pushing her me and shame both were i even remember with julia michael's man she was in nashville writing early on and i remember writing with her and i feel like the same scenario me and shane again were like julia you should you should think about being an artist. So I feel like when I do encourage a lot of young writers. Like there's a young writer in

Nashville that I've worked with a lot. Jordan Mitten has a great voice. And I'm like, dude, you sound just like a lot of guys on the radio. You should think about making your own music. So I'm always encouraging writers to do it, to put out their own music. I think it's important. you have the skill set to not co-write like you did if you're if you're you're you're now it's it's it's funny when people think of you as a producer and you're like no you don't understand I actually sing right and top line my own stuff and this is where you're not the only producer who has a secret superpower of being able to be an artist. But it's so weird when you have the skill set to write 100% songs

and you do a number of albums that really aren't about co-writing. What is the change after 10 years of doing solo stuff? That's where it's like, oh, you know what you should try? You should try writing with someone. I have forgotten how to write by myself. The idea terrifies me. It's like the dream where you wake up and you're naked on the stage. That's how I feel about it.

Like I'm like, oh gosh, I don't even know where it began, man. Why? It's like this learned thing, I guess, where you've gotten so used to writing with so many people that are so much better than me at so many things. You know, how could, how would I, why would I, it's so much fun. It's so much fun to write with you. who is going to sing a melody and have an idea that I would never think, you're going to sing a melody that my brain would never think to sing. You know, I'm like so sick of the melodies that I'm going to think of.

Or you're going to say an idea that like, wow, I've seen that movie a thousand times, but I never would have thought to say it like that. Yeah. That's what excites me about songwriting, man. It's like... After doing the solo stuff and living in London, and why did you, what was that moment when you kind of, I don't know what it is, hang your hat up,

I guess we could, you know, and you're like, it's time to go back. Yeah. It's time to not focus on being an artist. That thought process did happen. It did, yeah. There is a moment when you start saying, you know what, you started this whole interview by saying how you wanted to have songs that reach as many people as possible. And the people I find have that similarity are ones that were artists who saw what it was

like to put in a lot of sweat, you know, to move enough records, but not the kind of records you have as a writer. So true. What is the moment where you thought to yourself, I should actually start aiming at other, at this as at another part of songwriting? I think it was the moment for me where I knew that I was not. the best version of myself that I could be as on the base level as a human. I was depressed. I was not I was I was not a good version of myself and I and I knew that I had to find my path and I didn't

think I was on the right path. I was I was playing shows half drunk. I was going on stage literally half drunk and like not caring and just acting like a maniac and you know I just like I just knew I had to rip it off and i knew i had to get back home i went back to virginia for a minute to kind of recalibrate and um were you dealing with alcoholism or is it the i'm in a band and and you're supposed to drink before you do a show it was that it was it was it was part of the u k rock and roll culture mentality you know my drummer was a guy named ben townsend who's p townson's nephew and so ben who became one of my good friends we would always go to the who shows we'd be hanging out backstage with Roger Daltrey like Pete they're like what's up Ross I'm like oh my god that was

Roger Daltry knows my name like and then you know all the Jimmy Page will be hanging back there like I just hanging that was a very London thing man everyone just drinking all the time and like doing drugs and like that that just was part of the culture and I just kind of went into that culture because I just who I was for two years you know And I just didn't like what I would have felt like and what I became. I was very lonely. When you came back to Virginia, you know, the things that you had already done, though, it's hard to get record deals.

It's hard to tour. You know, at this point, Facebook exists at least. So my guess is that your whole hometown looks at you as like a rock star. And, you know, and you come home and you're feeling like your failure. A failure. How do you deal with that? So, God, that's such a... These questions, Ross. You're killing me, man. It's so true, man. You come home.

You're right. I really went through that. And I did. I feel like a failure. And I felt like... I feel like that's partisan. I just had to get out of there. I had to go to Nashville. I just had to leave. And it's probably the beginning of my mentality of the imposter syndrome. That was probably the beginning of it, to be honest. That's probably where it started.

Coming home, oh, you did all these cool things where I didn't really, like, I didn't really have huge hits and I didn't really headline my own shows. And I didn't, you know, everyone back home was saying that. Ross Cote, newspaper articles, young boy makes it big. Well, I didn't. You know, I didn't really. I did, you know what I mean? Yeah, but it, if 28-year-old Ross Copperman walked into your room right now and had just come back. from the UK, what would you tell him?

Oh. This is like Hoffman, on site, bro. I would just say, just kind of believe in yourself and know that what you did was good enough and you are enough. I mean, I don't know how you wouldn't look at that

as massively successful. It's just we're all so jaded and our expectations, our expectations are messed up. That's massively successful at that point. And it's like, I mean, I remember, you know, a couple times in the last year, or two years I've posted something where it's like, if I could tell 10 years ago me what was about to happen, oh man, like, I owe so much to that kid.

That grind is why you are who you are, you know? So true. Ross. I sweat. I bled. I really did, man. I did. None of this was handed to me, man. Like, I remember everyone always asked advice. How do I get into this? How do I do it? It was like 25 years of bleeding and like grinding and neck pain and back problems. And like, you go to Nashville because you had to get out of Virginia. Yeah. Were you still signed as a writer to EMI? I was in an artist deal with EMI, one of these artist deals that only renews when you release a new album.

And at that point, I wasn't making a new album. So I was stuck in a deal for infinity. And I met Ben Vaughn in Nashville and Josh Van Valkenberg and explained them my conundrum. And funnily enough, Keith Urban actually came along and offered me a publishing deal. in Nashville, which kind of like stirred interest. Like, oh, wow, Keith offered him a deal. We should, we should work with this guy and help get him into a Nashville deal, which is like a two, three year deal with a draw.

And thank God, Gary Overton and Ben Vaughn and Josh, Van Vaughn and Volkneberg, restructured my deal and put me into a normal Nashville deal. If not, I'd still be stuck in a lifetime EMI deal. you start you know you were releasing some music at the very end as an artist while you think you were in Nashville or close to that you know sort of like the end of you know one chapter or a hold on one chapter yeah when why did keith urban offer you that deal and i remember that I think that was the first time I heard about you because it was like, there's, um, yeah, I mean, you should, you know, we should, we should, we should get this on

to Copperman because he's doing the Keith Urban album. It was kind of like, you know, um, how did he hear you as an artist, I would assume, even though you had some co-writes at this point. But that's a big leap from like, hey, I like this guy to let me do a publishing deal. I believe in that, especially for some of Keith. I moved here and nobody was really making their own tracks and demos when I came here. Other than Luke Laird. Luke Laird is one of the OGs. But I saw that and I was like, wow, if I just mess with this and make my own demos, they sound more unique.

They're more cost effective. They don't cause anything. And I can be way more productive. And so I started to do that. And I started just really dig into that. And so I was making demos, it just sounded different. And Keith started hearing some of those tracks and cut a few. those early songs and then he wanted to come over and write.

And so that's kind of how it started. Just me making unique sounding things and bringing that pop rock influence into Nashville, which back then it wasn't really here as much. It was really still the old school thing. It was you went to Music Row, you wrote on guitars, you went had lunch, he came back and you wrote a bridge. And then you booked a demo session with some players and you went and cut it with some steel guitar and I was doing demos

with no steel and no fiddle and I was just doing demos it sounded like a third out blind track. Yeah. And so it caught people like Keith's ear who come from that world too and you get into some I mean some of these people that you were working with at that time

you know Dirks is not dirks as we know him yet. You know, it's still early dirks. It's still you know it's not early Thompson Square but it's Thompson Square and it's like but it's early Brett Eldridge

but it's not early Kenny Chesney and it's not early Cuban I mean you start getting cuts pretty quick when you start I guess I mean and I don't know which is the first number one song of it but I believe it's the Brett Brett Eldridge song right

is that right? I think point at you, Justin Moore. Oh, that's right. Same year. And then Brett, I'll just, yeah. So when you get a number one song. Yeah. That sort of changes the dynamic of like what your focus is.

I guess it legitimizes your focus. You know, there was a minute, about two, three years where I had a couple songs go with singles and they got to like 15 or 16. And I started to literally think, again, imposter thing. I started to think it's just not meant to be for me. I don't think I'll ever have a number one. I just, I don't think it's meant to be. And then I had it with point at you.

And it just opened up that you're like you said. It opened it up. And I was like, wow, I can do this. I can go hard at this. Timing was good too when I came to Nashville. Like if I moved to Nashville right now, I don't know. It's hard. There's a lot of competition now, you know.

Do you feel like, I remember I was talking to Benny and Benny said, you know, he's like, man, it gets harder the further you get because people's expectations of your songs grow. Oh, wow. You know, it's like it's not necessarily easier because you have more hits. They're now looking at what you're giving and is like, is that as good as? And they now have a long discography to compare it to. Wow. Do you feel like it's easy for you now? It's not easy.

I feel like you just constantly have to, the talent level is so hard. There's people in town now like Michael Hardy, who's one of the best writers I've ever encountered. This guy is like a, you know, and there's just all these new talented production, people, track people. Everybody's a lot of them in L.A.

And so the bar is super high. And it also makes you better. And so I think it's by no means easier. It's harder. Songs have to be better now. A lot of artists are writing their own songs. And so for an outside song to make it, it's got to just be mind-blowing and just undeniable. When we first talked to Ashley, it's like if we read through, I think maybe we even did,

if you read through all the number one songs, the actual duration of just reading the titles equals about the length of a full song. You could almost make it into a lyric, a bizarre lyric and write a full. It takes... So without going through every song, I'm just going to skip to some kind of bigger moments. Again, it's sort of, you know,

the number one songs seem to be coming a little bit easier and you start to experience it a few times. I'm sure you get to see your face on some billboards outside of your publisher, which for U.L.A. listeners, you know, music row, if you haven't visited, literally has billboards. Other people have had number one songs. One, do you keep any of your billboards? Because I'm sure they offered a sedentum to you.

I do. I do have a few rolled up in the garage. I have, you never know. Yeah, I have mine rolled up in the same place. It'll never be unrolled. Never be unrolled. They're too big. You don't know where to put them.

You can't tell the publisher to do. throw them away. Yeah, it's too cool. Yeah, it's too cool. It's too cool. To throw away. But you get, you know, um,

riser really, really breaks dirks. I mean, I guess it's big anyway, but this is like a, you know, country album of the year for a CMAs, Grammys,

the whole thing. Yeah. Um, it feels like right around there's, it, it changes. Turned, yeah. Yeah, there's a turn.

Was it the quality of music that you were writing at the time, was it that that was starting to change your career or was it sort of the world happening to you where because you were doing these tracks

people are saying like, oh no, this is radio now because then all of a sudden the next, literally it goes you know, triple play 2015, triple play 2016, it's songwriter of the year

2016 and 17 you know it's it's so many songs started coming out at such a high level why then I think it's about who you're writing with and who you get to work with it's who you get to be in the room with and it's getting to be in the room

with people like Ashley Goreley John Knight Shane McAnally Josh Osborne Hillary Lindsay it's getting to work with those people and when you're all combining forces and you combine with an artist and and you become friends with these artists along the way and that that's part of it you know it's part of it is hanging out Kenny Chesney and hey Kenny let's check out this song I wrote you know and then Kenny says hey why don't you produce this on me oh wow okay that just blew my mind Dirk's Bentley taking a shot on me to produce his record and

really going in hard with him and defining three albums in a row you know and so it's it was the combination, man. Timing, timing was everything. Still is. A lot of that seems really foreign to Los Angeles and New York and London writers where it's like the artists seem to look at writers and producers in the way that those other, I guess, genres look at artists. Like the artists in the way in Nashville, a lot of, you know, the artists really try to write with certain writers because they're the they're the the stars in a way wow you know when you're having those kind of you know the keith urbans and the the Kenny Chesneys when they're coming to you and putting that trust in you yeah why do you still have at that point why do you still have

imposter syndrome when they're coming to you uh such a good question man Man, it's, I just still feel like I don't, I still, even right now, I feel like, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. I thought, yeah, it's a hard question to answer, man. I think it's what also keeps me driven. It keeps me learning. I think if I didn't have imposter syndrome, I would just stop. I would stop learning. I'd start resting on my laurels.

Oh, look what I've done. You know, I've done it. I know everything I need to know about songwriting. I could teach everyone about this where I'm like, I don't know anything. I want to learn. I'm going to watch the Charlie Puth 30-day monthly course because I'm like, I want to learn from that guy.

I want to watch. If you ever did one, I would watch it. Like I just constantly want to learn. I feel like a 15-year-old kid wanting to learn. How did Phineas make that album? That album blows my mind. Like, how did he do that? He's probably another one that struck,

it kind of just didn't know what he was doing and just put together these crazy sounding song, you know. Yeah, I was like in his interview, he taught us about you know, basically he had done some stuff with Rebecca Black, who's

a really nice woman now, you know, grown woman who had that song Friday, Friday, Friday, or whatever it was, that people didn't take seriously. And that was like his first artist that he worked with and then he works with his sister and he becomes

producer of the year. And you know, has like six Grammys now. It really can happen to kind of anybody. So anyway, you know, more songs come out. I don't even know, going through it just feels like it's crazy. But between getting songwriter of the year in 2017 to 2020, you still have Grammy nominated songs, you still have, you know,

CMA nominated songs, you have all these things. But in 2020, you get BMI songwriter the year again. How was it winning it three years after having won a two years in a row versus those two years? It meant a lot in 2020, man, because I didn't see it coming.

It was a surprise, and I, I just, I've had my head down for so long, and I still do, that I've never, I never even had the chance to look up and count how many songs I may have for the BMI Awards. And then they play Bradley called me and told me that it just blew my mind. I had no idea. It's part of my process, man, just keeping my head down and constantly, constantly improving, constantly preparing. And I don't, yeah. Do you have anybody in your life who makes you pick your head up and celebrate? You know, my family every now and then be my kids and Caitlin, we, if a song goes number one, you know, we try and maybe have a dance party in the kitchen that night or something. But COVID's made it hard, you know, it's kind of, there's no, there's no more number one parties.

And so it's definitely even harder to celebrate. Right. But it's part of what keeps me going, I guess, you know. Why did you do a, you know, why did you decide now, you know, in the last year you had even, I guess he probably wouldn't even count for the 2020 BMI. You know, I don't know where the cutoff is, but, you know, you had the nobody but you, the Blake Shelton number one song with our friend Gwen. you had, you know, the Brett Young catch song. I hope is a massive crossover song featuring another one of our friends, you know, Darius Rocker, another number one song, you know, it's, it's not,

it seems like it's like you're back into a groove of, of they, you're getting, not, I don't want to say you're getting used to it, but maybe you get, maybe it's, it's, it's not as shocking. when you have the 29th. I'm sure the 30th will be very exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

When we get there. But why during all that you've been keeping your head down? Who said, why don't you do another album? You know, I just, I think for me,

if I were to stop, I guess I have this fear of like even taking two weeks off that everything will go away. If I have to like keep, going, you know. And I enjoy the process, to be honest, to be completely honest, it's a job where I feel like I get to go produce Gabby Barrett. I get to go cut a vocal on one of the greatest singers I've ever heard, Gabby Barrett. You know, I get to go work with Kenny Chesney, man. I get to do that.

And so I get to go sit in a room with Ashley Goreley and Shane McAnally and like write a song with those two guys. That's like my dream. And I enjoy. every second. I literally sit there like a child laughing and giggling when they say lines or when they come up with things. I just, I love the process. You don't love the process. You can't love, you got to love the process. But I'm saying, I guess I should have clarified, even with all that, and especially with all that. Yeah. Why are you doing a solo album now? Oh, my, my own album. Yeah. Because I feel like I'm, I'm, um, I'm, in a healthy place as a human and I feel like I've always like to think of my career as

chapters and this is this is this is another chapter for me I'm in a place now where I can I'm gonna I've learned so much for the last 38 years of my life and I feel like a lot of people didn't even know that I sing you know a lot like a lot of people are like I'm in the room writing and I know I don't ever get suggested to sing the demo usually you know it's like oh so and so, so and so. I was like, hey, hey, guys, I can sing it maybe. They're like, no, no, no, what about? You sing in early, you sing, I think, our first demo that we did together.

I did. I think so. And I remember sending it to my, my publisher who was like, who's singing this. So, I mean, I think that's even interesting that, you know, people aren't used to hearing your voice. Does it feel good to sing again? Oh, it feels so good, Ross. Dude, you know, as an artist, that fire never goes away, man. It's in there.

I buried it. I buried it for 12 years, real deep down. I tried to kill it off because I felt like if anyone else knew that I did that, they wouldn't take me seriously as a producer. Why would Dirk's Bentley let me produce his album if I'm over here making my own music? I've come to learn through a lot of therapy that doesn't matter and that that's not true. And through a lot of support from the community. You know, writing two of these songs with Ed Shearren

is what really inspired me to do this. We wrote these two songs, electricity and therapy, and I just freaked out about these songs. I'd never loved songs more in my life. And a year passed and nobody cut them that we kind of pitched them around to every country artist. And they just didn't feel right for anybody. And so I was just like, you know, I reached out to Ed,

and I was like, Ed, what would you think if I sang these songs? and he wrote me right back and was so supportive and was like excited for me to be doing the artist thing again and I was like it kind of blew my mind. I thought, wow, I've Ed's support. Okay, I'm doing it. Let's do this. Of all the co-writers you've mentioned,

that seems like quite an outlier as far as, you know. Yeah. But people don't realize that he's actually been making a lot of trips to Nashville and he has a lot of collaborators in Nashville. Who connected you to Ed Sheeran and this feels like a strange relationship? Troy Thomas and called me on Sunday and was like, hey, Ross, cancel, whatever you're doing tomorrow. You're writing with Ed Sheeran and Johnny McDade. I said, okay, that just changed my life.

Thank you so much. And I didn't sleep for 24 hours. I just kind of tried to make career come up with ideas. And I showed up and just the sweetest human in the world and Johnny too. Ed said his goal is, his goal was to have a number one country song. So I was like, dude, let me help you do that. So I called like every artist I could. Kelsey Valerini flew on the red eye from L.A.

Back to Nashville, wrote with us. We wrote 12 songs together, me and Ed, with different pairings. Tyler and Brian from FGL flew up, wrote. Kenny Chesney even came in. And we wrote a song with Kenny. It was just, it was amazing. It was one of my favorite months in Nashville and truly humbling writing with him.

I feel like the same way it would feel as if you were writing with Paul McCartney, you know, that level of talent. Are you guys going to have a number one together? You know, we got really close with Kenny Chesney, tip of my tongue. Got like top five. And I wanted out to be the one so bad. I'm still holding out hope. There's a few others out there.

that I think can happen. What is, what are you going to tell yourself now as an artist what success is compared to what you thought success was when your first go around? Success for me now as an artist is just growth, small growth. Seeing my monthly listeners on Spotify grow by 2000 every couple days or just, just seeing engagement growth. That to me is growth. And if I can play theaters one day, that would, that would be my dream.

I no longer have the ambition of playing Wembley or being, you know, playing Bridgestone Arena. That's not what I'm trying to do. I just, I want to have an outlet for songs that I believe in and that feel like me and for my voice, you know. your artist project is not like the music that you're writing for other people and you know um yeah that's i think that's awesome you know i think that's really there's no question that these songs aren't aren't necessarily like they're not the they're not songs that you're just trying to you know like kenny chestney isn't going to cut those songs songs, you know?

Yeah. It's going to be songs that, like, they're just not, it's not that. Yeah. Why are you not doing a country album? You know, I'm just not a country artist. And I know that on a deep level. I just know that to be a country artist, you have to be an authentically country. And I did come from a small town of Virginia.

I played high school football. I did all that stuff. but I'm not. Country fans would sniff through me in two seconds. They would know, you know? And I've known that since the day I moved in Nashville. I've known, because in the beginning I thought, oh, I'm going to make a country thing.

And I realized really quickly, I'm not a country artist, you know, I'm just not. That sounds like me. I'm a pop rock artist like you, you know. I come from the same world that you do. And that's just who I am. That sounds like the opposite of imposter syndrome. That sounds like you know exactly who you are.

Maybe after 38 years and a lot of, Hoffman and on-site, a lot of therapy I do know now. I know a lot more than I did. Yeah, I feel like when you get to this point in your career, you start making choices with what you do with your time. And even when, you know, even when we write, like I try to make sure that I'm not the driving force lyrically because then I also don't, it's also inauthentic if I start talking about, you know, whatever, if I start talking about trucks. I find it inauthentic if I start talking about trucks, to be honest, Ross. Honestly, you know. Well, this is when I said the world happens to you as a producer, what's fascinating.

It's not like you you weren't necessarily adding much slide guitars and stuff on records just to sound country. You didn't just add a banjo and like now it's country. And but your co-writers kept it country and then the world happened to you a little bit, which is pretty interesting. I know if I want to write a super country song like I lived it, the Blake's song song. I write that with Ashley, Red Aitkins, and Ben Heslip. Red Aiken's Ben Hayslip, they lived it. They lived it. Those needs are country.

They teach me about being country. I actually did live that stuff. But for some reason, I don't identify with it. Yeah. I'm really excited for this phase for you because it really is cathartic. And it's important for songwriters to remember that the, it's it's not all because there's such a difference between

song and music yeah sometimes it's okay to go and do what you think music could what you think music could be just release that so important you know that's hard it's hard to do

so important man do you feel vulnerable I don't feel as vulnerable honestly as I feel like as I did 15 years ago, I think I'm in a way more confident place. I know these songs are good and I feel confident. I actually don't feel vulnerable.

My wife feels vulnerable because she's the star of the music video. It's actually her for three minutes. She doesn't even like to watch it, but I feel very confident. Oddly enough, I know, opposite of the imposterouser thing. I know I'm contradicting that. Maybe that's where you are right now, too. Yeah, that's what you were saying. It is.

All right, we're going to go to this next segment, which is going to be five for five. I'm going to list five things. Just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Okay. In the spirit of them all contributing to your interview, I feel like we should give an opportunity for you to talk about each. Let's start with Keith Urban. Just tell me, whatever comes off the top of your head. Genuine, kind, authentic, exceptionally talented.

Beautiful human being. Ashley Gourley. The driver makes me better as a human and as a songwriter. He's a guy that says, Ross, why aren't you playing guitar in this anymore? You used to play guitar and stuff. Now you just program it on the keyboard. He makes me better.

He pushes me every time we write. Luke Laird. Just humble, gracious, kind, there for you if I needed him to come over right now to my basement flooded, he'd be at my house right now. Shane McAnally. Spirit of songwriting.

He just, he encompasses everything that I, that I see as what a songwriter is and should be. I look, I look, and I see that in shame. I get emotional thinking about shame because I,

I look at him in such a beautiful light. I just treasure his talent in such a huge way. We're friends, so I'm going to do more than five, so assume me. We didn't really get to talk about them, so let's go with your dad. Tough one, man. I don't know if I can answer, man. He was an early believer of me.

He was a very early believer. Your mom? My biggest fan and the reason I, the reason I play piano. Your wife. My rock, my everything. I always joke with her that we're in a duo together. You know, if I had my wife when I was in London, I'd probably be playing Wembley right now. She always reminds me she makes me better.

I wouldn't be half of what I am without her. Well, thank you for doing and the writer is. This is awesome. It was unbelievable. I mean, when we first worked together and this, this was. was one of the first you're you're one of the first people in a community that not not everybody's so open to work with uh you know i hate to say like pop folk but like you know you're you always were willing to open your door and and and do a session with me and i know we've done a few

over quarantine and over Zoom. And I mean all the things I said in that intro. And I was, I feel more casual in a way because anybody who knows you doesn't see, nobody cares about your credits. They care about that you're super nice to people. And that everyone who writes with you, it really loves that experience.

and they walk away feeling better about that day. So there's no wonder why, you know, all those people wanted to reach out so fast to contribute. You know, you've left a really positive mark on a lot of people. And I'm excited to do this, you know, in two years after 10 more hits. And, you know, we'll just, we should just keep this going. I'd love to. I love having you on and it's good to see you. This was unbelievable, Ross.

Thank you so much, man. I can't thank you enough. This was therapeutic on a whole other level, man. And I just, I appreciate you, man. Nice. Really, I really do appreciate you. This was, I don't know if we're still recording or not, but this was just like hugely positive and impactful.

Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.