And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 13: Ricky Reed

Episode Date: April 24, 2017

Originally from Oakland, California, this writer-producer has built an incomparable resume over the past decade. Just this past year alone, he was nominated for Producer of The Year at the Grammy's AND announced his very own imprint label under Atlantic, Nice Life Recording Company. When he's not perfecting one of his own projects, he's shaping other artists' careers with notable hits such as Jason Derulo's "Talk Dirty", Meghan Trainor's "NO", and Twenty One Pilots' "Ride." Still, he does it all with the humblest attitude and warmest personality. And The Writer is...Ricky Reed! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs,

how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write songs. the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who is nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is or go to our website www.com. Oh, and if you enjoy this podcast, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. We really appreciate that effort. This week's guest is Ricky Reed.

He was nominated for producer of the year at the Grammys. He's probably nominated because he's so diverse and so good in so many different genres. I mean, the guy has defined artist careers, whether it's Megan Trainor, or whether it's Fanagram, or whether it's 21 pilots, or whether it's Pitbull or Jason Durullo. I mean, the list goes on and on, and yet he still always seems to be one of the most humpherson. humble and enjoyable producers you can spend a day with. Now, Ricky's also been an artist, and he recently released a single Joan of Arc. I recommend you check that out.

He is also the head of Nice Life Recording Company, which is a record company under Atlantic, and he talks about Casey Robinson in this interview, who's the senior vice president of A&R at Big Deal Music, who's also a producer of this podcast. But most importantly, the day after we did this interview, Ricky Reed welcomed his daughter into the world. So congratulations to Laura and Ricky on starting your family. And without further ado, here is, and The Writer is. Welcome to And The Writer Is.

I am your host, Ross Goleyn. Today's guest is a real privilege for me, as I have known him for almost a decade. His success is multifold. Not only is he one of the most compelling frontmen I have ever seen, but he's widely regarded as one of the best producers in music. He was even nominated for this year's Grammys for a producer of the year. From the Bay Area, this hit songwriter has orchestrated number one songs,

publishes hit songwriters, and develops hit artists. This guy was at my wedding, and I had the pleasure of attending his. And the writer is my dear friend, Eric Frederick, aka Ricky Reed of wallpaper. Yeah. Yay. Good morning. Good afternoon. It's cool when people listen to it that it's not live, so they're listening to it while

they're working out, which is weird. That's what I was thinking, but I drink coffee 24 hours a day, so. Doesn't it affect your sleep or no? It does. I mean, but I don't know, I love, there's nothing better to me than like a 4 p.m. espresso. Wow, yeah. Like a late afternoon when you're really hitting it. Yeah.

Like something great is happening in the studio and sunset, I don't know. Do you get like a single espresso? Double. You get a double. Yeah. Yesterday I showed up to a session and they asked for Starbucks if I want a Starbucks and the session started at 5. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know.

You know, let's try it. And they got me an iced vanilla latte, which was like sugar on caffeine. So at least when I met them, they actually thought at that point that I had energy because like my normal demeanor is not exactly like bouncing off the walls. Yeah, yeah. That's a sucker punch. So, okay, so for full disclosure, you were the first person that we interviewed. Right. You know, and it's now been a year and a half, and rather than releasing that, there's so much

has happened that it makes sense to redo it. But that doesn't mean that I'm not going to start by asking if you remember the first time that I found out about you, which I don't know if you remember. Wait, found out about me? Yeah. Before we worked together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, tell me.

That it was, I found an email from November 30th, 2009 with this email that said, this is a super talented artist from San Francisco. If you have anyone looking for remix track or top line work, please hit him up. Also, he's in L.A. next week if you want to meet him. He's unpublished right now. He just did some top line work for Missy and Flo Rida for us a few weeks ago, co-wrote a killer track for the dance party, and his remix of Das Racist

Taco Bell Pizza Hut has been making the rounds online Making the rounds And I found my response to that Which was I think it was like Does he want to send me tracks? That's fair

I think that was pretty much it Yeah But can you explain like How do you get an A&R person In Los Angeles To hear your music From San Francisco And why am I getting this email

That's a great question. I mean, at that point, wallpaper had sort of hit a ceiling in the Bay Area, like we were a local band. We were kind of playing the biggest venues you can play as a local band, and we were on the covers of, like, you know, the regional, sort of weekly, et cetera, you know, magazines and stuff. And I was still broke. I was literally washing dishes. Where? at the Gap

corporate headquarters cafeteria in San Francisco. Wow. Yeah. It was brutal. It was like 10-hour days. You just get there in the morning and there's like, you know,

1,500 dishes. Oh, 20, I don't know, 6, 7. So you went to school at Berkeley. Right. The Berkeley of North. UC Berkeley. Right. And you go from there

and you're in another band. This is before wallpaper, right? Before wallpaper, you're in another band. Yes. What is that band? Basing New York. Right. So that's a sort of a Prague, hard rock band that I'm in through college.

Wallpaper starts as a way to sort of blow off steam from that band. So I'm, you know, I'm in, like, wrapping up Berkeley, I had taken some time off, too, which is why I finished undergrad in my mid-20s. Uh-huh. majored music. What did you do when you took time off? Sorry to keep going backwards I'm like you're changing backwards

Every time you're going forward But But It was I mean I basically thought that my band From even before then Was going to get a record deal Like I had a high school band

That'll remain nameless Caught you on that one What was it? They're called locale AM As a very Please don't Google it That's very 90s man It was in the 90s

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. We were like a... For sure. That sounds like a band that should be... Thinking of like Local H or something. Yeah, yeah.

Right, yeah. Right. So, but anyways, that band had some record deal offers. I had like a relationship. Actually, this is relevant, with BMI from back then. BMI was like having us do their, like, little showcases and things. So you were in a band in high school and you sent your music to BMI? Yeah.

Okay. In San Francisco. Yes. So who are these labels that hear it? I mean, at that point, we got an offer from Hollywood Records. I think it was Marshall Altman. Wow. He was at Hollywood.

I had sent, I mean, if we want to take it all the way back to the very beginning, I had a sick day, my senior year in high school, and I had this old book that was like your guide to the record industry, like updated with A&R mailing addresses and phone numbers. So I had this sick day, and I just started calling record labels. I just called record labels, one by one, left to messages. And one of the people I called was Rob Cavallo. You just happened to call the head of Warner Records?

Or he wasn't head of Warner Records yet. He was somewhere else. Yeah. I think he may have actually been at Hollywood. And you just co-called, like, hey, I'm Eric. I cold called the office, and I spoke with his secretary who I've been meaning for years. to figure out who that was and send her flowers. I said, hey, Billy Joe Armstrong,

who Rob had produced Dookie, the seminal Green Day record, I said, Billy Joe Armstrong's brother produced my band's album in his backyard, and can you tell Rob I want to send it to him? Rob called me back, like, at 5 p.m. that day. Hey, and I'll never forget, he said,

tell me the names of some of your songs and I listed off all the songs I could think of Well, can you name one now? Oh my God I mean They're too They're such good names

I don't know if the show could handle it Get them with a brick Sick Yeah Groove heroes What is it? Groove heroes We were the best band

We were the best band Dude that's a sick title Yeah So he heard those sick titles And said great he sent Marshall Altman, who is his A&R, up to C.S. play. And that was enough for Marshall to tell a friend of his named Scott Yamas, who is a Bay Area record producer and studio owner.

Hey, why don't you help this band out, produce some music for them, you know, sort of develop them a little bit. We want to keep an eye on them. Right. And Scott ended up becoming the sort of studio producer and specifically Pro Tools guru that I came up under. I was producing all kinds of local sort of Bay Area punk bands from the age of, you know, 17 to 20, 21. I would have bands come in on Saturday. I would, you know, record them, edit the drums.

This is on like Pro Tools 3 or something. It's a long, long time ago and just have to do this mega, mega tedious work. Are you doing this in high school? In high school. So you're recording Local AM with Rob Cavalala's brother. No, Billy Joe Armstrong's brother.

Right. Marshall Alton comes in here as Local AM says, You're great. I'm going to bring your music back to Los Angeles. Yes. And then you went, but you're going, then you go to school at UC Berkeley. Like, how does this all shake down?

The short version is that we do some records with Scott Yamas, this Bay Area producer, who's great. And we end up getting a couple of offers that we are advised to turn down from our then manager and lawyer. Was that a good idea? Yes, but they also ended up being the things that sort of broke the band in half. because here's a record deal and you just turned it down kind of thing right and that on the back of that I started what would be this sort of Prague hard rock band called Facing New York

who proceeded to do the kind of like touring circuit we toured Europe and Japan and the states a bunch of times and did you have a deal with that no that was fully independent How do you go and tour all this? Who's funding that? I mean, we were all working.

We were just in the Bay Area. Like, we all had jobs. And you all made it a priority equally. Right, right. And that was when my folks approached me. So I had started school, and then I had taken time off because, you know, when we got the deal offers for my old band, fell through, I was pissed off. I started the hard rock band.

A lot of decisions in my life come from times of anger. and they end up usually being the right decisions. Right. Yeah. So I went back to school because things were just hard. I was working at an architecture firm as a just sort of a clerk and kind of like rehearsing every night and the tours were really brutal. And that's what my folks were like, you know, you should go back to Berkeley.

And I was like, cool, I will. And I'll major in music. And then that changed everything for me. Right. wallpaper starts at that time I start playing house shows like house parties just started it

kind of as a satire but really also I wanted to play parties I wanted to like meet girls I wanted to have a band that wasn't so I wanted to have a band that girls liked you know what I mean well yeah because so Reagan Baby is my

first record deal and we went and played that but it was all political and I was like oh man I mean I got a record deal all my friends are actors in young Hollywood we're just going to go and just pick up girls and the whole thing I just thought this was perfect for me

and we started playing in our fan base were people who were really political and who were like there were probably things I just probably shouldn't say on this but there were the fan base was not exactly the fan base that I thought that would come to a guy just got a record deal

and it was they took the content and they believed in the content, which is really the goal. Right. But all those other things, I missed out. It wasn't until my next band that, you know, when Glacier Riking started playing, we started getting a girl fan base.

I was like, oh, that's what it's like to be a frontman of a band. Right. And it was like a different thing. When you're writing music for your bros, you're going to get that audience. Yeah, your bros are coming to your shows. And if you're going to write, it's just what it is. Yeah.

And it's a whole fan base. of bros. Exactly. Anyway, so I can relate to that. Right. So wallpaper, like, emerges from this time, and wallpaper is immediately met with more open doors

than anything I had done before. Yeah. It still has a satirical edge, but we scoop up our first indie deal pretty easily. Yeah. And, you know, from there, is that when you met Steve?

Yes. So did he help? When did you meet him and how did he open up the doors for wallpaper? Steve was the first person. Last name is Brodsky, right? Right. Steve Brodsky, the late and great, was the first person that ever looked me dead in my eye and said, I know you're playing this off like it's a joke,

but you could make real pop rap. R&B records. Yeah. Like, you could actually do this. Like, there's, there's a layer of irony and satire that you're almost hiding behind. But when you want to strip that away, like, you could really do this. He was the first person that ever said that to me. And even though it took several years of our relationship to even start really approaching

that, like, he planned it. that seed in me, you know? Yeah. It's strange how there's, do you know the hero's journey? Oh, oh, the concept of the year's journey? Yeah, and all those like sort of Yoda's and, you know, that show up in your life and I'm like, you have the power. You know, you're like, I do. And you're like, really? Are you sure I have the power? And you go and it's then those people who are like, no, don't take that record deal. Don't do this. And all the people who try to like not pull you down, but they're adding weight to that.

then you have those sort of angels and those heroes that come in and say, nah, you got a shot. Right. You know, you need those people. So you do. It's amazing. So then he sends wallpaper that music to BMI to Casey or how does, what's the, how do you end up from wallpaper?

Because then I get this email from the A&R girl that says all these things about you. So at some point, this is where that, I assume, where that passes, right? We're now in like late 2000. Yeah, at this point we're probably in about 2009 or so. So like I said, wallpaper has become a force in the Bay Area music scene, but I'm washing dishes. And I'm thinking about what Steve is saying. Steve is still my manager. I'm thinking about all that, finally taking it seriously.

You know, maybe I should expand and diversify what I'm doing a little bit because I'm broke. Like I'm broke, broke. Where are you living? At that point I was living just off the panhandle in San Francisco. Were you living with roommates? Are you on your own? Yeah, roommates.

We had a house We had a house that had been rent-controlled for like 10 years. So I was living in the panhandle with my own room paying like, you know, 400 bucks or something. Yeah. I mean, even then it was insanely cheap. How were you recording music at that point? Scott Yamas,

that first guy that I mentioned, that Marshall Altman from Hollywood had told me, or had told to give me a shot, that same angel was letting me use a space at night. I would literally bike from the panhandle over the hill up to

sort of North Beach area and take the bus from there up into Marin. And I would just, I would bus up at like 7 p.m. and I'd come back at 6 a.m. the next day I was doing that three or four nights a week. And then the next day you show up to the Gap, headquarters, and you just do the dishes. And scrape old eggs off plates with my fingernails.

I mean, like, it was brutal. It's so shocking. Sorry, graphic, graphic content. No, no, I like it. I know exactly. Not safe for work. Not safe for work. You now have this music, and we're back in 2009.

Right. So like I said, wallpaper had been playing shows. We were getting out. We were touring a little bit and through playing various shows in L.A. I met a guy named Jacob Cooper, also goes by Jacob Safari, talented. Visual artist, he was drumming for a band now the May She, I think they were called, a good friend of mine. And we did a song together.

and he had told me like, oh yeah, if I give this to my people at BMI, they can help with this or that. I was like, BMI. I was, yeah, I used to like talk to them. I knew like Tracy Verlindi and Miles back in 2002 or whatever. I was like, who's your guy there? Can you give me his number?

He's like, well, he's not my guy, but I'll give you his number. I was like, cool. So again, cold calling, like the story of my... life. I cold call this number. Hey, this is this is Casey BMI. I was like hi, Casey. Yeah. I got your number from this guy Jacob. Oh yeah, yeah. I want to write pop and rap and beats, you know like he's like okay yeah. Send me do you have like music I could hear? I was like yeah. He's like send me 12 CDs of your band. I was like cool. And that was it. Phone call is. That's crazy. That's that's the beginning of it. Is that Is that your first time co-writing for something?

Or were you co-writing? When all these bands were you co-writing, was that foreign to you to go and have a co-writing session in San Francisco where there's not a huge pop scene? Why were you writing with this guy? I mean, it wasn't even thought of in that way. It was more like, thought of artists collaborating, in the sort of remix feature, et cetera, world.

Because wallpaper had been doing a lot of remixes. partially how I got that project on the map, one of which was this song I did with Jacob. But at that point, I had also done the Das Racist record, the Pizza Hut combination Pizza Hut Taco Bell remix. It's so good. Which is so great. Thank you.

Which ended up like sort of moving mountains from me, which I never expected. I heard that song in a hotel room hanging out with girl party and Dan Deakin in Las Vegas and they said, you got to hear this song and I flipped out. I was like, this is a hit.

It's like some kind of magic magic hit record and like had to play with it, you know? But that ended up being one of the things also that this Casey character from BMI heard. Yeah. And he called me about a month later. And he was like,

you know, in A&R from this label, his name is Mike Karen. He's going to reach out to you. He wants you to come down and work with one of his producers. You know, they've been doing, this producer has some stuff with, like, Lil Wayne. And my brain is immediately like, I'm going down to write with Lil Wayne. We're going to be in the room. Yeah.

And I'm going to meet him and be with all his boys. I told my mom, I'm going to go work with Little Wayne. And I was, like, so stoked. Like, I didn't understand it. at all, the process of pitching or, I mean, any of it. No, and Mike Karen being the, I think I call them the Kevin Bacon of the music industry. You know, it's like the guy changed half of our lives. Like, we all meet the first time or we all have our first like real cuts together

because someone like that, you know, just doesn't care about what your name is. He just cares if he finds a hit song and hit writers. And the fact is that he's the guy who's looking. looking up who did this Pizza Hut Taco Bell record, you know, and he's the one who's finding an assistant to go and contact that. Right, right. Were you more creative when you were broke or were you differently creative? Like, because sometimes when people are really successful, they have trouble being creative

or sometimes when they're really broke, they have trouble being creative. Sometimes they don't have trouble at all. Right. I have a couple different ways I can get to that place where I feel truly like creative without precedent like creative where the ideas are wholly new and there definitely is like the struggle creative which I was at that time.

I mean like all of wallpapers breakout songs that sort of like fueled our journey were written like You know, in small studio closets with no AC, low on money, charged up on cheap, fast food. Like, really struggle creative, you know. But also, you have, like, where I feel now, where I feel like the sort of liberated creative, where it's like, I'm not struggling. So I try to channel the fact that the sort of like, the sort of like, the, sort of like, the, what have you got to lose. Let's take risks.

Right. And that's the funny thing. The what have you got to lose is the common factor. Right. You know, when you're broke, what have you got to lose? When you're like comfortable, what do you got to lose? Yeah, right. That's the place you want to get to, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So you come down to L.A. and you're writing not with Little Wayne. When you're in that studio, are you sitting there being like, okay, I'm not with Little Wayne. what am I doing with my life or were you sitting here being this is the coolest thing

to be in a studio like this because there's no way you were spending that much time in nice studios in San Francisco even with record deals or you weren't in the rooms that you were in in L.A. immediately.

No, it was a totally surreal and different kind of experience. You know, my first session so it was with this producer Kane Beats who's awesome. I think he was coming off Bedrock,

the Young Money sort of posse cut with like Taiga, Nikki, and Wayne, and Drake even. So, you know, it was great. Like, it was not a very productive session, but, like, he, like, poured me, like, my first glass of Hennessy, which was hilarious. Like, we kind of stayed up all night getting fucked up

and I don't just had a lot of fun. It was like me, him, a couple other guys, and we were up until about five in the morning. I was like, this is crazy. This is how pop songs are made. Because I'm into it, and I'll never forget. Because I had to go back up pretty early the next day, I did an 8 a.m. breakfast meeting with Katie Wellie, actually,

meeting her for the first time. Katie Wellie, who's now in RCA. Yes, RCA, who I think at the time was, publishing, I forget where. Oh, that's right, Sony. That's right. Yeah, but, you know, so our session finished up at like 5, 6 a.m.

I crawled out into my Hyundai rental car and slept as the sun was coming up, just sweaty and you know, sort of off-gassing alcohol. Yeah. And then woke up. You must have smelled like shit. I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure.

He's Hennessy and no sleep and in a room where you were still allowed to smoke weed in those rooms. Oh, yeah. No, my clothes were Yeah, before they said we couldn't. Like that, those rooms were like, yeah, exactly.

So like, so getting about an hour and a half, two hours to straighten up and then going and meeting her, you know, just like a total mess. I mean, that's the level I was operating at for the better part of my first sort of two years down here. How were you getting back and forth? And when you were getting back and forth, I mean, the cost of gas and the cost of, like, I don't mean to keep bringing up money because it's not about money, but when you're broke, it is.

It is. And it's like, prioritizing, okay, well, I got to work X amount in order to, you know, work. And we meet sometime around this, so I know we were going through the same thing. Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean, this is that classic thing where, so I was usually renting rental cars. That was, like, just a little bit cheaper than flying. Uh-huh. So I was doing that.

And I remember conversations with my parents or with my then at the time girlfriend. Like, you know, so they pay you, right? Like, they pay you. Like, you're coming down all the way down and you're doing them a service or trying to write a song. So you must get paid for this. I was like, no, no. They're like, well, you know, and then a year into it, like, is this, does this still make sense? and then that's when I was like, well, I'm going to move down.

Like, I think I need to leave the Bay Area and move to L.A. And again, you know, the sort of guardian angel, Steve Brodsky, he was like, still my manager at that point. He was like, you have to do this. If you want people to take you seriously, you can't be like, oh, but I'll be in L.A. in three weeks so wait till then please you just got to be available yeah yeah but it was

rough because I didn't have a car of course I couldn't afford a car so while wallpaper's on tour my dad or right before leaving for tour my dad and I we broke down my bike we bought this like custom bike shipping box

which I guess they have I didn't know till then and we broke down my bike and I left for tour with a big like camping backpack. Yeah. You know, like those kind of ones that go from your head

down to your, like your butt kind of. And I brought that on tour with me and then after the last day of the tour, I remember it was Washington, D.C. I flew back to L.A. my bike was there waiting for me. Cool.

And that was the beginning of my life down here. And it was a whole year with camping backpack, bike, no car, know, buses, public transit, couches. It was a crazy first year.

Where were you staying when you were here? I know Echo Park, right? Exactly. Funny enough, I'd played a show in L.A. maybe six months before I moved down. It was at what is now the satellite, formerly spaceland.

Yeah. Played a headlining show. It was great. And there was a couple guys it had come out that I had recognized but didn't know exactly from where and they were outside smoking cigarettes and I was talking to them

and they were like you know like we got we actually have a room like in our house opening up it's like 500 bucks it's kind of like it's hot it's a hot room which I didn't know what that you know when you're broke and there's stuff like that it's a hot room or it's a loud room

or it's kind of a leaky room right like no I mean I'll try it for a hot room So I moved in there It was on Alvarado Down by the 101 Like, you know, a street that would have Huge semi-trucks

And all kinds of, you know, it felt like they were like landing planes on that street Yeah, right Was it a hot room? It was blazing. It actually had wood panels on the walls That resembled that of like being an asana Yeah, like it looked like a sauna.

Yeah, it was formerly a sauna, basically. I'm sure. I'm sure, but those guys that took me in were Brad Herring, who's now a employee of Nice Life. That's really cool. And Ethan Shoemaker, who's now my engineer. Those are like the first two guys to, the first two guys to give me a place to live down here.

That's amazing. We're still together. I mean, one of the things you said when we tried this the last time was you were talking about how you would take the bus to my, because we started working around that, and you would take the bus from Echo Park to West Hollywood so we could write in my condo that I was foreclosing on because I couldn't make any payments anymore.

And the fact that, like, we would sit on my bed in my room, which is also the seat for working on the computer. Yeah, right. You know, it's just funny to see, like, oh, yeah, it couldn't be more real than that, you know, than you're like, well, either when you say that we've got nothing to lose, it's like, I mean, I'm already laid on this payment. I can't afford it.

And it's like, I don't have a car. I'm going to just get over here. And, you know, you must have taken you an hour to take a bus to my place. Dude. At least. Dude, for real. I mean, like, I was doing sessions in Santa Monica. And the, you have to take the two or the 702 to get to Santa Monica.

The 702 is the express. But like, if you couldn't catch a 702 and you took the regular cross-town 2 bus, that was a longer bus ride than it took to fly from San Francisco to L.A. Yeah. That's an 80-90-minute bus ride,

which was so annoying at the time, but I get so many ideas on those rides, you know? I know you want to, the clichés are all real as far as, you know, when you have that kind of struggle, you're around real people who are not talking about the music industry all the time who are not doing the same race.

A friend of mine went up to Santa Barbara last week and he was talking about on his way down he stopped in Ventura for lunch and the lady was like, you want a hamburger? He's like, yeah, I guess so. I mean, usually you order a salad in L.A. Right, right. He's like, do you want a beer?

And he goes, okay. And he was sitting there and he's like, it's so weird to eat lunch around people who aren't trying to be the best songwriter in the world. Right. You know, and you get mixed up in it. Or people who aren't concerned, like, so hyper-concerned with, like, how, I don't know, how they present themselves and how they hold themselves up.

Yeah. The image is gone. Like, it's not about just self-image all the time. Right. You forget about that. It can be, it is like a sort of, you know, secretly exhaustive. practicing practice and part of being in LA. Is that why you have...

Okay, so when is Ricky Reed born? And I mean that in a sense that you have... There are people who call you Eric. There are people call you Ricky. There are people who call you wallpaper. And all of those are really kind of pseudonyms. If you know you, they're all the same person. And if you don't, it seems like people have...

Like, they're alter egos. Right. And is it that time that something like... I am now Ricky Reed. I am now... You know, how does this... How does that correlate with everything? Well, that takes a little step back in time.

Not too far, but when I started wallpaper, I started Ricky Reed. Right. It's 2007. When making pop music to me was... I don't know what it was, uncool or something. You know, I'm coming straight out of a music degree from a fairly good, but also a fairly snobby music program. I don't want to just be a pop guy, but in my heart, I love pop music.

Yeah. So to do that, I gave myself a pseudonym, which was Ricky Reed, who would be the singer of wallpaper. Right. And sort of invented this whole satire. this satirical character. So the question actually becomes, when do these sort of different shades of my personality

just become one thing? Right. That's a little bit further down the line. I think we'll get there in a minute. Okay. Because that's more recent. Yeah. What's next in the story?

Is it getting the record deal? We're in now 2010, 2011. we're all just starting to talk about getting cuts and you and I probably at that point just written our first cut together, right? Or pretty close when we got C-Lo anyway. Yeah, yeah. We're kind of like on this strange trajectory

where you're working at, I forgot the name of it, what's the studio? Oh, Black Iris's old studio in Bedrock in Echo Park. Right. So you're working on doing commercial music. And that's your, day job. Right. Exactly. That's how I was surviving down here while doing

while trying to succeed both as a writer-producer and as wallpaper. So I was working in sort of a hot little room. My life is just all hot rooms. I'm working in a hot little room. I'll buy you a fan. In bedrock studios, which for people who don't

know is really like a rock band rehearsal building. All right. So, like, when you're working in a studio trying to cut vocals and things, like, you have, you might have, like, three metal bands on each side of you sharing the walls. So you have, you don't just have, like, one guy, like, banging on a double kick drum. You might have three guys. It's just chaos.

Sick. And that's where I made the wallpaper song, Stupid Faced, in this middle of this sort of, like, you know, still broke. only in L.A., disconnected from most of the people I care about, surrounded by, you know, fucking metal bands in Echo Park. It was just a crazy time and still having no success. So I made that song, and it was shortly after making that song, you know, we put a video out, it starts getting attention. We get some love from MTV.

And then that's when, I get the call to come to the Sony building because this producer Tricky Stewart is now working at Epic Records. Tricky had stopped my, at that time, publisher, Larry Wade, had stopped Larry in the hallway and said, you work with that wallpaper kid, right? Like you and Evan, Evan Bogart,

who also, just to say real quick, was another one of the angels in this whole trajectory. You guys work with that wallpaper kid. I heard that song Stupid Faced it. I need him to get in here and meet L.A. tonight. L.A. Reed. Yeah.

He was at X-Factor rehearsals. They were waiting for him to come in. They wouldn't let Larry leave epic. They kept him there from like 4 p.m. until I finally showed up, which was close to 11 p.m. Because I was at this point, man. I was like so,

just getting sick and tired of having people blow smoke up my ass in the music industry. Out of control, right. Yeah, like, at this point, I've been trying to do it for like eight years, nine years, I don't know. And so when I'm out on a date with my then-girlfriend and Larry hits me up, like, you need to get to the epic offices now, I'm like, fuck off. You know, like, I'll come in on Monday. I'll come in on Monday. Right. Like, it's not that urgent.

And he's like, no, they're keeping me here. Exactly. You don't understand. Right. And also, like, you don't know L.A. Reed. Trust me, get here. He pushed and pushed and pushed. So I brought my girlfriend.

We were living at this point in Silver Lake. Uh-huh. We were on a date in Santa Monica. I drove her Santa Monica to Silver Lake. If you don't know, that's about 45 minutes-ish, maybe more. Right, or two hours if you take the bus. Right. Yeah.

And at this point, I've been able to buy my... myself a Prius off a small publishing deal which is great so I drop her off change drive back out I get to the

Sony epic building yeah 10-11 at night or whatever it's L.A. Reed who for some reason is hanging just hanging with Sierra just Ciaras there randomly

you got L.A. Sierra Tricky Stewart Larry you know my publisher and me and it's you know it's after hours it's all shut off

and dark everything and they walk me into a big audition rehearsal stage room. It's almost like a screening room, like a small theater. There's a piano on stage. And L.A. is like, you know, can you play a song? And, oh, I was so nervous. I've never, ever, ever been more nervous. Can you imagine that?

No. This theater holds like 400 people and you have L.A. Sierra and Tricky just sitting there in the front row just, looking at you like sing us a song I mean it's nuts I have one LA read story that happened recently I don't know if I told you this or not

but I was in I was meeting with Chris Anacutei works with them now and we were talking about music and different artists that they have and he walks and he peeks his head and he goes and he's like Chris I need you to come here LA does and Chris like no

you should come in here to LA because you should meet Ross I had never met him and he comes in and he goes and Chris says you should meet him he's a hit songwriter and and he says okay well what is he written and he goes

Dangerous woman He goes I didn't like that song What else did he write And he goes He goes he goes He said my house And he goes

Okay All right So he sits down And he goes If you're such a hit songwriter Play me a song So I played him Hopeless Romantic

Which is on Megan Trainers' album that wasn't a single but to me is a hit song and it was like it was a really good moment for me to be like rather than playing him some new song being like yo this should be fifth harmony's

next single or Camilla is gonna love this record I was like I'm gonna play you a song that you already have that you never released and it was like this really cool moment of we sat there the whole song he was wow that's a hit song and then that was it and then he left and I was like he's like we

talked about that song for a while but it was like a really interesting moment it was like it was super like raleigh read los angeles kind of like yeah he's like he put he does this to writers and to artists where you better bring in your a game it from the beginning it's like he's i don't know if he test everybody or if it's just but i imagine that our stories are similar where he comes in he's like yo play me the song yeah what's on did you did you play i the only thing i really knew how to play sing comfortably on piano was a ridiculous sort of lounge jazz version of the song Stupid Fasted. Oh, cool. It sort of has like a Roy Ayers, you know, everybody loves the sunshine.

I don't know, it's almost like a psychedelic jazz version of this like knucklehead party song. And it, I like engaged them. We were doing calling response and stuff and it was great. It was really great. We went up to his office. and we just drank tequila and played other songs of mine that he hadn't heard, that he loved,

and talked about Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones and Bala Cooney and Jazz and Miles Davis and just talked and talked and talked until late in the night. And then finally he was like, okay, I'm gonna go.

He's like, tricky, you know, he made this motion with his hands, like kind of wrapped us up. And I didn't know if it was like wrap up the meeting. Right. Or like... This human.

Yeah. Right. Wrap up this human. And that was a Friday night and lawyers negotiated all day Saturday. And Sunday I was in bedrock studios producing a band called A.B. and the C. Featuring your engineer Joe. What? Oh, this is fantastic.

I just turned to my right and looked at Joe because he's sitting right there. I was in the studio with Joe's band, producing them in Echo Park, who Steve Brodsky was also managing. And yeah, my publisher, production company, people, their assistant brought this massive binder with papers, and I signed it.

So I met L.A. Friday night. Yeah. After the end of business hours, and over the course of the weekend, before the start of the next week, the deal was finished. I mean, it was 48 hours. I mean, this was what they tell you. It's like, if they want you, if somebody wants an artist or somebody wants a song, it goes really quick.

Deals tend to go quick. And the ones that are really slow and you're battling over some things for a long period of time, it's a different kind of deal. It's not to say that it's not good. but when you have that kind of excitement, you know, that's something that's probably a good partnership to have in your life. You want people to be excited and out there, but we'll put the money out there right now.

Yep. And we're happy. It doesn't matter what it costs. Let's just get this done. Right. That's part of why I love him. I mean, he's one of the last, you know, great record guys that has conviction. Uh-huh.

And if he thinks something is great and no one else does, he'll put his money where his mouth is and if he doesn't like something and everyone else fucks with it it's a number one song he's like I don't like the song

I didn't like the song yeah well that's when he's like Dangerison I didn't really like that one what else you write it's like what the fuck bro I spent a month on that chorus when you're finding out when you have to sign these papers and you're in the middle of producing

and I imagine your life is like this now where when because songwriters are working on so many songs at one time and so many different productions or they're finished but they're out in the world and you get you get weird news in the middle of the day you get sometimes really good news sometimes

not so good news but when you get that does it affect your what's in front of you when you're getting it when you know that you had this crazy meeting with L.A. Reed and Sierra's there and like and all these weird things and then you're having to go in and do a production on a

band that doesn't have a deal at the time, no offense job. Yeah. But, you know, when you do that, how do you focus in that moment? Are you able to do that? Or are you sitting there being like, okay, my mind is in 20 different places? I mean, that's part, that might be the biggest part of the job of what we do is like, you have to be able to put that in a box somewhere else. Yeah.

You know, I can't stand working with people. people who are like focused on everything else that's going on in their lives. It's like we all got a lot going on, but you have to be able to put all that aside, be it good or bad, and really stay present. Yeah. You know, and I think that like staying extremely present and really emotionally connected to the people you're in the room with is the only way to make great art hit single or not. Right. You know what I mean?

So when you're, okay, you sign a deal as wallpaper. You have a publishing deal. You know, it's like all the pieces are there. Yeah. Why and how are you doing, you know, when, how are you balancing, like you're saying, you're staying present, but you're at the time, you're starting to produce songs like, you know, I assume talk dirty's a little bit after that. That's still like a couple years after the deal, I assume. But you're starting to get, you know, bigger. bigger opportunities to produce

and you're trying to do the band and you're trying to release music what were you choosing to focus on at the time and I don't know how does that affect how you right now boy I mean it was

it was really validating it was really important getting the record deal from Epic if for nothing else then to show me that my taste and my instincts are valid and appreciated and good. Love that.

Because I was trying to write pop songs. You know, I was in L.A. and doing sessions. And, you know, I would go into a room and be like, okay, today we're going to try to write for Kelly Clarkson. Today I want to try to write for. usher or whatever it was and like trying to do them

but only like a less good inauthentic version of these things. You know what I mean? I was chasing different sounds and different styles and being like I can emulate that pretty well but getting a record deal off of a song that I made when I was

struggling with nothing to lose and being like wow people respond to this that opened up my I mean that opened up my whole situation when I started working on my debut album for Epic I was a lot more liberated but I still then had the pressure of

okay this is my shot this is my shot I need a big song really need a big song so I had that constricting me at the same time so what happens in the middle of all this I'm making the album Um, this is actually where things start to get really, really interesting. Okay.

So it is the, it's winter of 2013 at this point. Um, the relationship I'm in at that time, that I had been in for a while. Um, she, she's a great, really great woman. Uh, but we're kind of getting to our. last straw. Like my lifestyle is so unpredictable. My schedule's terrible. I'm gone nights.

I tour. You know, she moved down to L.A. for me. And I'm just like not doing my part. Right. You know what I mean? So the relationship is sort of in a tough spot. And that's when I

took my dog for a walk on a Sunday. We have a a dog together. Took my dog for a walk on a. Sunday at like 11 a.m. And then I come home to our apartment being broken into. Right. I like walked in the front door as I see a silhouette through the kitchen window.

And I'm like, oh, it must be like a landscape guy. And I was like, well, it's Sunday. And then I look over and see this landscape guy. Reach up and grab those like metal bars that are on windows in L.A. a lot. those like classic like, you know, just pulls it out of the wall, which first of all is like, okay, so those don't do anything.

Ricks it out of the rotten sheetrock wall, opens the window and proceeds to just swan dive into our kitchen sink. Doesn't see me. As soon as I see him come through the window, I already have the leash off the dog, so I grab the dog by the collar and very quietly get out the front door,

down the steps as I hear him crashing into our glasses and plates, dirty dishes in the sink, you know. And I called 911 and God bless the LAPD. They had a chopper overhead. I swear to God, in about two minutes. Amazing. About six patrol cars pull up. They run inside, guns drawn, and they actually caught him still in the house.

They brought him out in the street. I had to ID him. Later had to go to court, testify, which was really sad because he was clearly an old. drug addict, you know, transient dude. Yeah. Did that affect, I mean, obviously,

those are kind of life-changing moments. Right. How did that affect your, you know, does it affect your career in any way? Or is it, is that the straw that breaks the relationship? I mean, what happens when you have a moment like that? I mean, he was another one of the angels. Really?

he was the catalyst that starts the craziest year of my whole life because that ends up, yes, being the straw that breaks the camel's back as far as the relationship goes. So, then I moved out. First of all, is he in prison?

Do you know if he's convicted? I don't know. You're really interesting if you found that out because my guess is that if you sent him a letter and said that started the greatest year in my life. Yeah. And I wonder if there's like some weird connection there that's like there's a friend,

I want to go into your story, but a friend of mine, he was like, you want to get dinner with my priest and me. And I was like, okay, it was this childhood priest. And I was like, I've never had dinner with a priest. So we're sitting there and we were talking about the people who, these people, the ones that are sort of darker along the path that create, when you said earlier, like the people that you're angry with or something, those are the ones that inspire you. Right.

And that at some point in your life, you have to acknowledge those people as equally important as the good ones. That at some point, they own some percentage of your success. And to be able to acknowledge that the people who cause such emotional destruction are sometimes the ones that you, you know, you owe the most to. And it's important to recognize that, yeah, that guy's an angel, that he destroyed so much. But if it wasn't for that, you know, well, we'll get to the future. But so many good things have happened because of that. Exactly.

Anyway, continue on. Well, the thing is, it was about to get a lot worse before it got better because coming immediately off of that, you know, I'm couch surfing in L.A. with my dog, back to couch surfing, which is tough. The dog is getting more and more aggressive. and you have a record deal, you have a publishing deal, you're writing with name people, and then you're going back and staying on a couch. Right, right. I have my,

the engineer who was doing that album from me named Drew Kappner, who's still a great friend of mine. He and Margaret, Margot, she's great, but the two engineers at the studio, Larrabee where I was making my album, they would even babysit my dog while I had to go do meetings. I mean, it was incredible

because I had to bring the dog to the studio every day too. And that's when I lost one of my angels. My manager had been diagnosed with a form of acute leukemia. This is Steve Brodsky. On Christmas Eve,

just before the start of 2013, it only took just about four, three, four months to kill him. Wow. It was the worst night of my life. Also, Joe, called me and was the one who told me the news.

I was in New York in a hotel doing, you know, promo, doing a promo tour for one of the wallpaper singles, good for it. Which then sort of became the Steve Brodsky anthem. It was a song about

friendship and people bailing you out when you're down and so performing that song from then on was was always a challenge um is he um I don't know how you believe in these things or not but how much do you think about them on I mean here we are we're in this incredible studio I mean obviously we've talked about how there's imported moss on the ceilings you know I mean like

going from from you know a lot when he met you to now. I mean, how much do you think about him in this setting? I mean, I think about him so often. And more often than just a, the simple feeling of missing him, more often sort of a what would Brodsky do because he was the way he conducted,

business the way I understand it was like an Ahmed Erdogan type character he was everybody loved him Amit was the founder of Atlantic right right everybody loved him

he was able to get things done based on the goodwill that he had with everybody around him and he didn't hold grudges you know he

wouldn't punish people that crossed him. He just had the best heart. And I call on that the most, like, sort of looking to him for advice when I'm in a, in a challenging situation. It's something amazing about how people live on is, in a way, is like, I mean, I was in a doctor's office yesterday. And I just, my grandmother was a doctor. And I was like, the first thing that I thought of when we're talking about it's like well you know my grandma used to say this and the way she would have treated this situation and they they become such a part of you in these conversations and it's like it's so present you don't really need to have the conversation with them yeah you know that they're like they are having that conversation with you in a way right exactly

they still are so we're in 2013 and you're dealing with that loss right so I'm I'm still finishing up the wallpaper debut album I was still doing sessions here and there like outside of wallpaper pop production songwriting sessions

I did a session over at I can't remember what it's called now the old Coanga studio the Atlantic Mike's old building

yeah it's the Edmonds building yeah yeah so I'm doing a session over there it was fine nothing to write home about and I remember a young A&R Miles Beard

comes in and he's like yeah do you have any other beats to show me and I played him some stuff and he's like dude I was just on vacation in Israel yeah in Tel Aviv and I heard this song like in the clubs

and it is like killing it over there like we've been trying to flip it and nobody can get it right and you know he played it for me and I was like oh my God Like he's like, yeah, we think this is like a Missy, like a smash for Missy. And I was like, dude, I mean, this this sax part is crazy. Yeah.

So please, yeah, let me take a shot at it. So I went in back to Larrabee the next morning to work on my album. And I just got there like a few hours early, took the sample, chopped it up, kind of did a little bit of sound design stuff, like matched some of the sounds in the sample perfectly. cowbells and shakers and a neighing horse sound naturally yeah as one does right

was it you that sample that were like nay like mr ed's up I went to a farm in Ohio yeah right I'm sure cost $10,000 yeah right I made it these two

these two horses because I was like they're making it sound it's so natural I just I got I had to get a zoology degree yeah right let's take this back a few years yeah right It's like, go back to Berkeley

I get my zoology degree I then start mating horses I sample that And then Talk dirty is a hit Yeah Ney dirty And it's like no

We got it coming More human Nay dirty No no no Talk dirty Talk like a human Mr Ed So anyways

I flipped a sample I just do it over a few hours I sent it back to Miles And he's like This sounds sick We'll send it off and I was like, great. And it was a few months later that Evan Bogart,

one of the aforementioned angels, hit me up and was like, hey, I was in a session with, maybe he's in with Derulo or somebody else, because I heard that beat you made and Jason Derulo cut it. I was like, Derulo, like, riding solo? Like, same Jason DeRuello. He's like, yeah, yeah, it sounds crazy.

Like, these writers, Sean Douglas and Jason Evigan, right? alumni of this show. Yeah, they wrote it with Derulo and it sounds amazing. I was like, cool, great, can't wait to hear it.

So finally, I got my hands on it. We finished it up. And then over the course of me being out, you know, I left for a warp tour that summer. Right. With wallpaper,

six, no, eight weeks long tour. Crazy. It was like a baptism for me. Like, I had been couch surfing with our dog. I had to re-home the dog. I'm out of a really long-term relationship.

I finished my album and released it on my birthday that summer on Warp Tour around all my Warp Tour friends. And that was really where I started over, where things start to look up a little bit. Meanwhile, Talk Dirty is kind of being circulated in Australia. Yeah, it's a number one song everywhere in the world. Almost immediately, right? It was still a little slow.

I know it took a while here. For sure, here. But it was like, I just kept hearing these things. Like, you know, I then started my next tour in fall, which was with 303, who are now great dear friends of mine, Sean Farman and that. But I'm out on tour with them. Yeah, and I hear like, hey, like, Talk Dirty is number one in Australia. I'm like, that's so cool. I have number one in Australia.

Like, first number one anywhere. awesome. And as that tour goes on, it's like, it's kind of racing up the charts in Germany. And I'm like, that's, okay, cool. In Europe, okay, great. Not a number one quite yet. And then coming off of the 303 tour, I was in this headspace where I was like, I've been in a long-term relationship for five years. I feel like the work stuff is just starting to click. I need like a few more years maybe of being single and just focusing on work. The best way to do the best work is to be single,

which was my thought. 303 tour wraps up in the middle of November and two nights after Thanksgiving, I met the love of my life. Yeah, exactly. completely changed my life. I think you can pretty much argue that falling in love is as much as everyone thinks it being single

is like, oh, then you're going to write about authentically being in clubs. Like, no, you won't. You're going to be drunk in the club and you're going to not have any idea what you're talking about, you know? But all of a sudden, you fall in love with somebody. And for you, I know, it's fairly immediate, you know? It's like, oh, yeah, that's like, now I have a different purpose. and like a whole other motivation.

And it's like, I'm going to make music for a whole other thing. So anyway, so you meet her and you actually meet her at a party, right? I did, yeah. We met at a party at different fur studios in San Francisco, which is owned and operated by a brilliant producer and close friend, Patrick Brown, who was almost sort of partners with Steve Brodsky back in the day in the Bay Area. So we met there through Patrick. and Molly, his girlfriend.

And it was so funny because trying to explain to Laura, my now wife, trying to explain what I do to her is like, she's like, okay, so after we met and before we had our first date, she was like, I googled wallpaper and like, I saw videos, like, you're a white rapper. Like, she thought that was like, you know, Oh, yeah, that's just what I do. I'm just a white rapper out here rapping.

End of story. And I was like, well, I make... I mean, I studied music and I like jazz. I do all this other stuff. Exactly. Babe, I love jazz. Yeah. I'm real.

I need you to see me. Somehow jazz is the thing where it's like, I like jazz. You're like, oh, okay, maybe you're into music. Yeah, yeah. But it's somewhere around there where I'm like I'm like

Oh my God Turn up the radio I produced this song Yeah I made this song She's like wait you Hold on Like this

Who is this Is like this is Jason DeRulo Oh and this is two chains Right Right And she's like wait So you like You made this made this

And I was like Yeah this is This is me And she's like Is this normal? I was like No Not I mean not yet

I guess. Right. And that was the beginning, January of 2014, is the beginning of Talk Dirty's ascent, you know, in the United States, radio and otherwise. And that's when everything starts to change. Yeah. You really want a record deal when you're younger

because you think that's the end. And you think you want a tour because that's the end and because you're touring to support an album and you really want an album to sell something and maybe they'll write about it in the magazine but when you have a song that's traveling like that and you know that it's been number one in multiple countries and it's number one in the most music-consuming country

and you start seeing like oh wow this is affecting millions of people it's in weddings it's in bar mitzvahs It's in fraternities. It's in all of those things. Holy shit, man. This song that I produced one day that, you know,

I thought was going to be a Missy Elliott Jam is now, like, at a party where I can introduce it to the girl of my life. And you're like, holy fuck, man, I can't escape this. This is no longer my music. This is like I'm part of like a zeitgeist. Right, right.

And then all of a sudden, your name just blows up. Like in the industry, it goes from like there's certain songs where you could have produced them and they could have been successful and no one would have asked who produced it.

Yeah, right. But it was like a calling card of like this is left. This is left of center but it's commercial. Right. But also, you know, for better or worse,

once we get, you know, once you have the hit, obviously it's a blessing because doors start opening. Yeah. You know, but the first doors that open are like,

can you do enough? one exactly like that and another and another and another like but I don't think you know I mean no fireball and wiggle and some of these ones that are you know the celebration songs like they were still they're all like these celebration

songs but they're not they're not the same no it's true I mean we we did have to turn down a lot of work and sessions to be really strategic in that time like how do we make sure

this pigeonholing isn't permanent. Right. That's when we started chasing down the 21 pilots project. Yeah. Because my team knew it and I knew it that I had been making rock records my whole life with my bands. You know, my very first experience is producing bands as a 16-year-old kid. So when we went to Atlantic and we said, please, oh, please, oh, please give us a shot.

They were like, okay. I mean, God bless him, Pete Gambarg was like, like this makes enough sense where you can meet Tyler, you know, we can give you a couple days and see how it goes. Tyler Joseph, the singer from 21 pilots, right? Yeah, singer, I mean, and just, what's the word? Force of nature.

Yeah, sure. I mean, he's a savant. He is. Obviously, he's out of control. His talents, obviously, next level. He's brilliant. The first day that I met him, we met at some mediocre Greek restaurant on Melrose and had lunch, and I was just like, I came home to Laura.

I was like, this guy. That was some mediocre food. Yeah. But let me, I came home. That was the most mediocre falafel in this town. That said. Yeah. This guy's brilliant.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he, he's so special. And we, you know, but nonetheless, we, I refer to myself as we a lot because I realize I need to like explain who the we is. Yeah. But like the team surrounding me is so important and so integral. I just get used to saying we when I'm talking about my managers and whatever. Anyways.

Yeah, but every inch of real estate on that album we had to claw for, you know. You get one song. This is great. Okay. You get one more song. Yeah. And then one more because... How many songs did you end up producing on it?

I think it was eight. Yeah. You know, because the thing is, too, is that Tyler... is writing hit songs with no help. He's writing 100% hit songs by himself. So to be the producer that gets the

opportunity to produce those songs is kind of a gift. Like, you know, when he walks in and he's like, I want to do this one today and you listen to it. It's like, thank you. Right. Like, thank you for giving me the show.

Do you remember him playing ride for you and being like, oh, I got it. Oh, yeah. That was actually the very first one that he played for me after we had lunch. Yeah. It was ride. And that was the first song we did.

I flew out to Columbus, Ohio. Did two days with him. We just did ride. Pretty much start to finish. I kind of think he still lives in his, like the way that it feels, like it feels like he still lives in his parents' house. Right.

And it's still like the kid in high school that I, just was like I was in musical theater so I feel like I would not have been able to hang out with that guy but I would have been like I want to hang out with that guy yeah right I mean like he you know I think the thing that we have in common and I think that I really admire about him is like no matter where they are and what they're doing

like they stand for the underdog sure they stand for the outsider yeah and I have never stopped feeling like the outsider and that's a big sort of indicator to how my brain works. If I don't feel like an outsider, then I would just have nothing more to say

and no more art to make, you know? Yeah, I actually had written later, you know, because you do, well, I didn't write it later, I wrote it earlier to discuss later, but just to clarify. Thank you, thank you. But I was going to ask that because you always choose, you choose projects

when you choose them you go all in on them and they're they're off the beaten path even when they're pop I mean what you did with Megan Traynor is another example of like here's Megan but let's go in this direction with Megan let's go for it you know

Hell or High Water let's go and do this kind of album with Megan Hall or High Water let's do this album with well people we won't even mention you because they'll come out. But like, you know, but 21 pilots, you know,

some of these other people where you work with them and you go and you say, like, let's go in and do something. Right. Do you feel like that alienates you more? Or do you feel like that is like, that that's why people want to work with you?

Or is it, can it be both? Oh, it's both for sure. I mean, that's a really good, good way to put it, because when you're constantly, I don't know, when you're constantly like zeroing in on the unexpected and I don't know, and then sort of burrowing in that, it can be an isolating process.

You know, like we both came up as writers in the same community. We were talking about this just the other day. The same community of like amazing pop songwriters who are all friends who have known each other for a while. We do writing camps and have all these great personal experiences that often result in like big songs, you know. And choosing to sort of nosedive into these left-of-center projects does take me out of that community sometimes. And that's a sacrifice.

Yeah. But at the same time, to be able to, to go from 21 pilots to Megan Trainor to then you know Fantagram or Bomba stereo like a band from Columbia

that I met backstage at Lollapalooza like those are the life experiences that I crave. Okay so you've released and only a few more questions but I know you you started releasing

with Joan of Arc express myself be the one you're starting to release singles again but this time not as wallpaper, but as Ricky Reed. Right. This former singer of wallpaper.

The artist formerly known as. Yeah. Is this part of an album that's coming out? Or is this more like right now you want to release singles to do it? Or is it, what's the purpose? Well, when I fell in love with Laura, you know, the thing that we hadn't talked about here is that after the wallpaper album on epic in 2013

that sort of just didn't do anything I then went on a role of having like success for three years of producing and writing for other people and I was in love and I was like this is good like I'm successful I can be creative you know but also in the back of my head

is sort of this nagging feeling like people don't he care about what I have to say. People don't want to hear me sing. They want my beats. And I can do that. And that's fine. But as I've gone through my relationship with her and fell more and more and more in love with her.

And sort of fell more and more in love with, this is going to sound strange, but with myself and my confidence in myself as an artist. artist. Yeah. I kind of got to the point where I was like, no, fuck it. Like, I have a lot of shit that's in my head that I want to say. And this has really just been the kind of beginning of that process, letting people know. I mean, the very first song was called Express Myself. And I feel like all of my songs are love letters in some way, shape, or form.

Some of them are to Laura. but I had to start with a love letter to myself because, you know, as they say, like, if you don't love yourself, you can't love anyone else. Sure. So express myself was the beginning of that and be the one and Joan of Arc starting to look at my relationship with her,

where we've been, what we've been through over the last few years. And, yeah, there's an album coming. There's a lot more music. Yeah, good. I love that. I mean, I texted you after Joan of Arc because I know we've gone through a lot of similar things, and I felt like that meant a lot to, meant a lot to me too. I'm happy you're putting out music again. Thank you.

All right, so what I've been doing is I've been listing five things, and I just want you to say the first thing that comes off the top of your hat. Okay. This segment is called Five Things that I say. I don't know. It doesn't have a name yet. We'll figure it out. Okay.

Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Yeah. Tyler Joseph. Live show. Megan Trainor. So funny. Barbara Kane, one of the presence of BMI. The matriarch.

Love it. Star 2 Infinity. It's... Fireball. The drink. Okay, cool. Star 2 Infinity is his writing camp that includes Joe, John Ryan, accident. Tom. Tom Payton and Elsie Juber Phantagram Bass

bass bass why bass I just think of all my first thought goes to all the buzzing crazy bass sounds on the album I mean like

the second and third and fourth and fifth thought are the emotional journey that we all went on through the making of that album and my friendship with Dan Wilson and all this beautiful dark

Becky the whole I mean there's a lot but the very first thing my very very first thing is the bass I mean I love it I love the album but I like that you wrote it

a lot with Dan and obviously the band but I mean to have Dan you know Dan Wilson is one of the best writers in the world and he's so diverse and I think by putting that random

force them together in room that's how you get that music it's really cool well to close you know I mean one of one of my favorite moments this year was when I was sitting in my seats at the Grammys

and I see you and Laura and I see you guys sitting together about five rows away or something like that and it's just an amazing moment of like this is really real that like we as a community

are growing up and that the struggle's just worth it. It was just worth it. And I feel like I'm going through the struggle with you still and a lot of the life struggle stuff with you. And I'm really fortunate to have you in my life as a friend and as a colleague. I know that Steve would be proud of you

and I know that you're going to be an excellent dad because I already know you're an excellent husband, but you're a good friend and you're really good musician, and thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist

or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg's mom and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and The Writer is.

I mean, the thing is doing this or anything, yeah, the whole legacy thing. I mean, I just want to do good work. I mean, I hope my legacy is that I was a good husband and a good dad, Because at the end of the day, like, you want to do well in your career, but no amount of number ones or hit songs or dollars is going to fulfill that, you know, because it's a fleeting thing. So just getting to be part of it is really the win, you know. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.