And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 130: CAM

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

Today’s guest took the world of country music by storm in 2015 with her critically acclaimed full-length debut, Untamed. The record not only bowed in the Top 15 of the Billboard Top 200 and registered at #2 on the Top Country Albums Chart, but it also yielded her double-platinum GRAMMY®, CMA and ACM-nominated smash single, "Burning House," which remains the bestselling country song by a female solo artist since its release in 2015. Since then, our guest has continued to thrive as both a songwriter and musician. She recently released her sophomore album, The Otherside and she’s lent her writing voice to Miley Cyrus' 2015 album, Bangerz, and co-wrote "Palace" with Sam Smith for his 2017 album, The Thrill of It All. She broke boundaries with her bold and empowering 2017 lead single, "Diane," and further showcased her range when she teamed up with Diplo for the genre-bending Thomas Wesley 2019 debut single, "So Long." She has consistently sold-out shows across the globe, cementing her status as an international powerhouse on stage. She performed alongside Sam Smith for 4 sold-out shows at the O2 Arena in London and joined him on his 2018 North American tour, opened for Harry Styles at the legendary Ryman Auditorium in Nashville, delivered standout festivals sets including the coveted sunset slot at Stagecoach in 2019, headlined top venues across Europe and Australia, and performed a "game-changing" (Rolling Stone) debut-headline gig at The Ryman Auditorium. By taking risks and standing up for herself, our guest has continued to hustle and pave her own way. And The Writer Is… Cam!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www.com. And the writer is.com. Hey, welcome, McKell and Tor from Stargate to And The Writer Is.

I had some questions because you guys started this music program called Lamp, and I wanted to know more about it. How is Lamp different from the other music? programs. Well, Ross, as you know, music has been my passion since I was a kid, and I actually applied to music school but didn't get in. So we knew at LAMP we had to be very different from traditional education. We will see you and hear you purely based on your talent. Did anyone ever ask you about your GPA in the session? I think not. We actually teach you how music is done in the real world, like you're in the Stargate session. Amazing. If I wanted to be a part of it, how would

apply. Simply go to lampmusic.com. That's l-a-a-a-a-m-p-music.com. We think a lot of the most interesting people in music don't necessarily have high school or college education, so we don't require any degrees. All you need to do is send in your music. And that's how we decide who gets into the program. This is a paid program. So what, you know, if I have to pay to be a part of it, what kind of value would I be getting as a student? You'll leave with an amazing number of songs in your catalog because the absolutely most valuable thing in the music business

is that are the actual songs. You'll also have studio time every single day and collaborate with other super talented people in the community. And since we're also bringing in top executives, publishers and managers, it's also a great place to connect and have your music heard by some pretty amazing people. What would a week look like at this program?

So every Monday, we have a new mentor, were coming in and they're talking about their most valuable lessons. Then we go to the studios and start writing on this week's assignment. And then the mentor will go from room to room and actually interact and work and help write these songs and shape these ideas. And we deliver them on Friday. And every Monday we have a listening session, give feedback and the whole process repeats. Who are some of the mentors?

Some of the mentors we have so far are Justin Tranter. Neo, Circuit, Jassy, John Cunningham, Emily Warren, Charlie XX, and of course, us, Stargate. So here's the real question. Can greatness be taught? Well, most of our students will already be pretty good. So we focus on the difference between good and great. And I think every single mentor that's in this program, they've done great stuff. So they know what that sounds like and feels like. And our mission is to help you take your music to the next level. How can I find more information on this? You go to our website, which is lampmusic.com, with two A's,

or our Instagram, which is also lamp music. And that's where you send your music in and apply. For those who don't know what LAMP stands for, what is it? Los Angeles Academy for Artists and Music Production. Awesome. Congratulations, and I hope some of our listeners get to be participants. Vince, this is really cool, man. Congrats. Thank you so much, Ross.

Thanks, Ross. Speak to you soon. Welcome to End the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's Grammy ACM, CMA, AMA-A-M-A-Nominated singer-songwriter instrumentalist began her career far from the bright lights of Nashville. Of course, after completing a degree in psychology and having worked in labs at Stanford University, she'd cook up literally bangers. Like, seriously, had a song on Miley Cyrus's album.

them bangers. Anyway, she and her longtime collaborators crafted one of the best country albums of the last decade, including a genius record on par with classics like Jolene, the venerable song Burning House. Since then, she's released songs with All-Stars like Sam Smith and Diplow, because this genre-less artist has no boundaries. From Nashville, Tennessee, this multi-platinum certified mother recently released the follow-up to herself, album and it too is an honest and vulnerable collection of bangers and the writer is cam why sounds so much cooler than me hiding in my messy bedroom right now you don't you don't think of yourself as cool no not by a long i mean do you do i think of you as cool no do i think of you

is cool no of yourself no i've made a whole career out of being not cool. I mean, it's hard to sink in. It's like it's nice to have it told back. You're like, oh, yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of, I think it means a lot of people feel the same way I do is what I like to think of it as. Yeah. It's, it's strange when you have aspirations and, you know, we, we talk a lot on this about you, you end up with a number one song or something and you get there. And it's not like there's a parade waiting for you. It's a little different in Nashville where they might put up a billboard and then party for you. But for the most part, these things happen, but they still happen to you and your friends and your family.

And there are few people that you're close with. And they recognize it. And then they go on with their life and it moves on. And I think everyone assumes that there's a there there. Yeah, 100%. Or that, like, I had the thing that I always thought at some point I would get called. close enough to the there there. And then the red carpet would come out and everyone would be like,

great, come on. And like, here's my hand. You made it past the gates. And there wasn't that either, really. But it just, I mean, I've been super fortunate. I'm glad that I didn't freak out when I was in some of those rooms with some of those other artists and pulled off some songs for them, like Miley and Sam and Diplow and stuff.

And then, yeah, I'm really, Burning House really opened up doors for me once I switched to music because it was like for mainstream country to have a song that was slow. A woman is singing it. There's no drums, you know, kind of a funky time signature for the verse. Like that wasn't supposed to win commercially. And the fact that it did meant that now I just feel like, oh, I should just do me. And that should be the thing that I do. And that's a huge gift that not a lot of people get.

So this next record, the other side is like super me, like full of me, all doing, you know, pushing, you know, boundaries, but it's all in support of the songs and the messages in the songs. And yeah, really, really proud of what it sounds like. When you started your life, you were born on the White. coast in a place where country music is not really prevalent. Obviously, Bakersfield, there's a big field sound. There's a lot of, it's not, there are no country artists that have come out of California.

But, you know, born in Huntington and moving up to San Francisco, there's not a massive amount of country music in comparison to other genres. What was your childhood like? I grew up. My parents would play like, you know, oldies. I was obsessed with like oldies stations and like, you know, 50s, 60s. My grandparents listened to like 30s, 40s, like big band and like classic country. And those voices and that songwriting really hit me. Like I knew how to hit replay on the Patsy Cline and the Ray Charles really early. And I was also in a children's choir that sang by the time I got to Northern California, it sang in like 14 languages and was like, it early on kind of

changed my ear and formed my ear for like, oh, like dissonant seconds in Bulgarian music and like just whatever that, it's just expressing emotions. Like everybody's kind of got the same, this is my psychology then coming in. Like everybody's got the same emotions. We're all feeling the same thing and wanting to sing about it and how you convey that, you know, harmonically or, you know, rhythmically or whatever, kind of just depends on your style and where you're from. But yeah, in San Francisco, like going to shows and stuff, I definitely was like the only artists,

I didn't even know artists. The only artists that I saw on stage were like indie rock or folk. You know, that was kind of like the options. So I think like me starting songwriting, I was like, oh, you know, I love country songwriting, but it sort of always had to be a little bit of a stretch, I think, when I first started songwriting into, you know, like more Joni Mitchell and like that type of thing. And then I got like my first, I'm skipping a lot because there's a lot to the life. But when I finally got like my first cut, I remember, like an independent artist and it was like a really shit contract that was like worth nothing. But I was like, this is my big break.

and I'm going to do country music. And I remember looking at like what was on the charts and I was like, they don't have any women. They need me. And I like it. That's so naive. Like I really, I really thought they just had a shortage of women.

Kind of like saying they had a shortage of people of color. I don't know what it was. It just didn't have any. But it's like, once you get here, then you're like, oh, that's where that is. But yeah. Yeah. that's a that's a conversation i can't wait to get to but when you're in san francisco and you're going to see folk and indie artists and whatnot i assume this is i don't know what age you moved to

san francisco but assuming it was before high school yeah we moved up when i was five so my like i think my cultural bubble is the san francisco bay area bubble which is you know really specific um And amazing, and I love it. And I'm so proud of it. And it doesn't necessarily translate everywhere else I go. But I had a great time growing up there. And yeah, I didn't know anyone that did music. I think partially because it's so expensive to live there.

It's really hard for musicians to be there. And then when I first started playing, like, well, I first went to shows. And like, I remember seeing like a band called Bird Monster. I was like obsessed with St. Vincent. and like it was like 2009 type stuff and I remember thinking like I could do that like I think I could think I could be up there and do that

and this high school or is this even before that this is college and post college because I started acapella groups in high school and college and kind of yeah super nerd it was fun though like the harmon no

what was your Acapella group. Were you in one at Stanford? I was the one at Davis. Yeah, I started one called The Spokes. And they're still there. They had like a reunion that was like a lot of years since I've been in college. And

it was so cool. They're at this huge concert hall and all these people were there and that makes me so happy to think that something I created I purposely thought about it lasting after I was going to

leave. That was what I really wanted it to be something that was going to live on and the fact that it is and like they all are still kind of blended in the same values it almost feels like. It's really cool. There are a lot of acapella, we'll say nerds, that became pretty successful in music. What is it about acapella that makes good songwriters? Well, I remember hearing Sarah Borellis's demo. Like somebody, like the underground college network, somebody had handed somebody had burnt CD. And she was in Acapella and I was like,

ooh, like I think that opened my mind that you could go that direction a little bit. But I think it just trains your ear because you have to arrange things for voices and you have to transcribe things, you know, into written stuff. So maybe it's kind of get a bad. rap for being uneducated, you know, because you don't have to learn music to sing because your instrument's just in you and natural. So maybe Acapela people spend a little bit more time learning a little bit more traditional musicianship. I don't know. We were in rival Acapella Acapella groups, me and Stereum, were the same age. No! She obviously became

really successful at that point, but I just remember watching you know, I think John Legends the same year also was also an arrival Acapella group. It's like there was like a bunch of people where I saw them sort of taking off around the same time. They didn't start really, their careers didn't really start blowing up until like 2007 or eight. Yeah. Which is well after all of us graduated. But you just knew some of the other Acapella people who became successful and you're like, wow, you know, there are other dorks who are figuring out. Yeah. There should be like one big reunion. of just like if you're like whoa

like my yeah ridiculous my wife and I joke about how there are so few sports sports sandsos and pop music your wife was in it too no no no we just just she was she's studied voice for a year so we

have that in common I love that but you go you know you're in you're in an acapella group and and people in at uc davis are not necessarily taking over the music industry but you're choosing to have a degree in psychology not in music even though you're doing acapella stuff why what were you going to be i think okay so fourth grade i wanted to be a supreme court justice and then like high school i started to realize like that was going to be a lot of work and I talked for a project to an appellate court justice,

and she basically told me if you want to have kids, you're going to fall behind, like pretty straight gender talk. And then I was like, okay, maybe that's, you know, maybe that's not for me. So I think it's all this pursuit of really wanting to understand what is going on. Like, who am I?

And what are other people feeling? And how does this all connect? Like what is going on? And I think that truth thing is what then I fell into the psychology stuff like, oh, this looks like it'll give me more answers, you know? And psychology research, by the way, not like the doing helpful things for other people on a couch, like just full blown, you know, doing tests and stuff. And it was really, I learned a lot. like I did like attachment theory stuff. I at,

um, Davis. I worked at Berkeley at a lab for a while. And that was like a cool relationship stuff. Like 20 years of data of people in relationships, which is hilarious. I can remember watching these videos. You'd have like a couple and they'd have a negative and a positive and a neutral

conversation. And then you'd code like whatever you were looking for, conflict resolution across this 20 years. And it was like, the people that made it to the end. end of 20 years. Like, they had nothing left to argue about. They'd be like, what's the negative thing?

Oh, yeah. Like, he doesn't do the dishes. I mean, what am I going to do? He doesn't, he's never done the dishes. He's never going to do. And then the people that, like, didn't make it. It was intense watching them argue. But, like, yeah, kind of going into those.

And then it's Stanford culture and emotion. So kind of, are you valuing your ideal affect? Like, are you trying to be excited? excited all the time? Or are you trying to be peaceful all the time? And then how do you actually get there and the distance between how you feel and how you want to feel and what that predicts? Like all that stuff was really cool. I think it plays out in my songwriting in what I talk about. But I hit this limit towards, I think in any industry, you just start seeing the people that are kind of like messing with the data a little bit. And then how long.

it takes to get it approved. It gets edited. And it's only, you can only study what people with the money want you to study. Like, I mean, the music business is kind of messed up too, but it's just like, I think all businesses just run like that. So I was like, is this really truth? Is this what I want to do? And saw a lot of fudging of data and stuff while you were doing it. I saw people like cleaning up their data in ways that, um, not a lot of people, sorry. I can think of one guy cleaning up his data in a way that he shouldn't have cleaned it up. And I as a young person was like, you know, when you're younger, so you're like, wait, is this normal? And then I remember telling somebody about it and they're like, no, that's not normal. And I think he got like a wrist slap or

whatever. But also just the whole system of it, even if you did have something true and you bold it down to this story, and it takes you however long to get it approved and edited and printed. And then what is it once it's out just to the academic community. Anyways, I had all these questions about it. There's good people doing research, but it just wasn't for me. And why do people, and in the music industry, it isn't that always different. I mean, how many people ask for songwriting credit on songs they didn't write? How many people ask for, you know, how many, you know, there's fudging of data.

Oh, yeah. Clear ways when it comes to mechanical royalties and streaming royalties. and streaming royalties and whatnot and who owns what? Why can't people just be honest? I would think it would be easier because you wouldn't have so much stuff to keep straight. But I mean, I think there's a lot of people that are just trying so hard to be

to get some kind of power and hang on to it. And that's just like driving them. It's not even the money all the time. It's crazy. So. Well, I think money gets, is really overrated when it comes to people's driving. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. I think ego is much more, is much more of a driver than money. I think people think money is, but a lot of the people, especially the ones in power, don't need another dollar. So there's something else that's driving that. And that's something you see in the Acapella world a lot. UG But I do remember being upset at all the real rich schools That had so much money for recording budgets

But Oh my God, we were one of those And because I went to USC and the Recordings were amazing And I was Yeah, it's a whole other conversation But yeah, that world's not totally dissimilar from You know

The rest of the music industry where there are some schools where the acapella group's better funded and they can do better recordings and maybe they might recruit better singers because of it. But you'll always have some scrappy group somewhere that figures out how to do it. And when you have, especially now when people know how to record better. Yeah, it's a whole new landscape. Yeah, it's different. I think when I was in a group, there were a lot of acapella groups.

recording like Acapella groups and then there were about five that were recording the way straight note chaser and penitonics and those kinds of things

were recording right oh this is acapella-ish in a way yeah yeah yeah I get super picky

at the track by track and stuff too I feel like the yeah I don't know where I was gonna go I was gonna tell you something Acapella related

but well we can go back to that but when you graduate and you're doing you're doing research and you're studying how people think i see some correlation i guess in lyric writing but when are you having time to write songs and what is it that gets you from i'm writing songs to the next step i when i went abroad for like junior year of college I went to

Italy for half the year and the Netherlands for the other half of the year and a boyfriend had taught me like a couple chords on guitar so I got a guitar over there and I was like real quiet about it like in my room and like kind of would play just like for a couple friends type thing and started around then

like writing songs kind of like really poetic unfinished type of songs and then I sort of kept up with it and I had another boyfriend that gave me like an interface that actually the guy that Burning House is about like he gave me like my first microphone like a little duet I want to say it was like a double yeah

and then you know logic or whatever and so I started like recording myself and all that was sort of happening college and post college So I was still kind of like doing things on my own. And then I remember kind of hitting this wall with psychology, like not really knowing. I had applied for graduate programs and I went on this interview at Georgetown. And it wasn't the right fit. So I didn't get in.

And I was about to do like another round of applications. And I was like, oh, is this what I want to do? And my sister called me out super hard. We're like 18 months apart. And she's kind of like my soulmate twin. She was like, I don't know why you're spending so much time trying to figure out these other things working in your life. You have this talent and you know what you should be doing. And I remember being so pissed.

We were like walking a really long ways in San Francisco that day. And I was so pissed at her. I don't know why you get so pissed at people for telling you honest things, you know. It was just like I was getting called out. And I still went to my. professor Genie side at the lab

in Stanford and was like what do you think I should do like why am I asking my professor this? I was like

what do you think I should do psychology my sister says I should quit and you're asking your professor that?

Yeah yeah and I'm like what do you think I should do psychology or or music and she was like picture yourself

80 years old and what would you regret missing out on psychology or music and I was like it finally drove at home

Like, yeah, just what matters? And how much time do you have and what do you feel like doing? And I just wasn't doing music that whole time because I was afraid I wasn't good, you know? Of course. Yeah. What gets your songs heard? Like anybody or me? Like what got my songs heard?

I mean, there's a difference between, hey, you're going to have to choose between psychology and recording. You're not anywhere near Nashville or L.A. Right. And somebody says you should do that. The first thing someone would probably say is you should try out for American Idol. So after you decide not to do that. That's right. Because that's the story.

How do you get heard? How did you get heard? What did you do? Yeah. I played in clubs. I started writing. I teamed up with this guy to help do like kind of like an initial indie set of songs and he ended up being such a can you swear on the show yeah he's such a dick and he

like to force my friend it was such an asshole so i hate talking about that project because i don't want anyone to go support that guy but anyways i started doing kind of like songs around town and you know playing like these little clubs they're all gone now in oakland and berkeley and the people that i grew up with were so supportive i was shocked i thought they'd be like go get a job like the rest of us and everybody was like so down to show up and be like yeah you're great i was like what how is this possible and i uh another boyfriend of mine hooked me up with tyler johnson who's been my like co-writer on everything co-producer he produces harry styles and sam smith and everybody and he was working for jeff basker who is like massive name conier biance brunelonel

Mars, like everything. And he was, like, in it. Like, he had found his way into, like, a spot. And I started working with Ty. Like, I had just been kind of, like, writing in my basement and sending stuff over. And we kind of just got to this point of, like, writing and writing. And I thought I was going to be a songwriter. Like, I was saying that independent song that I got cut on someone's album was like,

I'll just be a songwriter. and the first contract I got offered as a songwriter because a demo, oh, you know what it was? Our first thing was someone said they knew Faith Hill. And this is what happens in the beginning of all things after American Idol. Someone says they know someone famous and they don't know them. One says they know Faith Hill. Yeah.

No one. It's not like there's, it's always Faith Hill. It feels like. Yeah, right. Yeah. And so we did all these demos, like, and this was like proper country music at this point. And where are you recording? In Tyler's apartment.

In the Bay Area or? This was in L.A. This was in L.A. Like when I was in the Bay Area, we would record things just, yeah, in houses and offices and rooms. And I actually took like a six-month sabbatical, like, enjoy my life, retire young, in Portland. I kind of did some music like in the basement there. And then I was like, I'm not going to get anything done in music in Portland.

Like, no offense to the Portland scene. But like, you know, I could have stayed in the Bay Area for that kind of vibe. So I went down to L.A. and I'd met Ty and we kind of started working together. And we did these demos. And they ended up getting passed around to this independent

girl. And I was like, oh, this is it. I'm going to make it. It's a songwriter. And the first publishing deal while I was moving to Nashville, because I was so sure that I was making it. I was like leaving, hanging out with Ty and Jeff and everybody. Like, I got out there and that deal was such crap. Like, the first deal people offer you, because they know, like, shark-wise,

they can just take whatever you're worth, you know, first thing and, like, give you no money. And I almost signed it because everyone in this town was like, you can never get a pub deal. You got to go with it. It's such a big break. But, like, coming from California, I was like, this, money is ridiculous. Like, you can't even survive off this money. Like, how are you supposed to do this?

So, yeah. I was like, no. And when I said that first no, that's when it was like, you know what? I'm going to show people what I can do. And I'm going to go in, me, Ty, and Jeff

is going to oversee this and, like, mentor us and get this out. Like, we'll do a Kickstarter. We'll pay for it ourselves. We'll get it to, like, as far as we can go. Like 90% of the album was done. And like I told you, my whole,

where I was from was so supportive. Everybody chipped in this money on this Kickstarter. And then I'll come back. And then I'll do meetings with labels and they will see what I'm capable of. And it won't be like a guess. Like, oh, maybe she could be this or we could straighten her hair and she'd be real like that. You know?

So it worked. I went in and met with a bunch of people and Doug Morris, who's the head of, So he was the head of Sony all Sony in New York. I went in and sat in his office. We played Burning House and he was like singing by the second chorus. And at the end, he was like, you're not leaving here without signing a deal. And I was like, call my lawyer.

Just like, not falling for that. But it was great. I mean, that was, I don't think meetings normally go like that. So it was a lot of investment into myself early and having people that, believed in me that invested in me too to get those songs heard, you know, in the right way. Yeah, and I think

that there are a couple avenues you could have taken. There's no question that if you didn't know Jeff Basker, Ty, and you, you know, you didn't have that skill set, you hadn't already had a career beforehand, then sometimes that

beginning publishing deal makes sense. If you have no conditions and they're willing to put advance you money with no cuts really to speak of. Kudos to them for raising, for, you know, trying to sign and break an artist.

100% except if you, but if you saw this contract, you would be like, no, don't do that. Right. I don't question that. I just always wonder when,

what you did so well is recognize that the relationships you already have were the ones that you couldn't, get even if you had a publishing deal. Like, you were working with talented people who understood you as a person before you ever had a deal. Right.

I mean, I think that that's the genius of that move is to realize wait a minute, no, I have the thing I just need the funding. Yeah. You know, that was the, that's a different situation. That seems to be a

you know, a uniquely savvy advice. Were you asking Tyler and Jeff for their advice on this deal or were you just sort of were you constantly leading the charge? I think everybody was like you shouldn't sign that. You should do your own thing. And I was the one who's like, no, I really want to consider it. And my lawyer, who's still my lawyer now, who

I just met him, he's Kendrick Lamar's lawyer and like all these awesome people. He was like, he was like, I do not sign that. That is horrible. And in Nashville, they kind of have like, it's a very different set of, you know, what you'll see in a contract looks different than what you'd see in L.A. or New York or Atlanta. So, like, it looked pretty bad anyways. But I was like, let me get a Nashville lawyer to look at it because they'll know.

And, like, that lawyer was like, sure, whatever. And, like, I got to the very end spent $1,500 that I didn't have on this lawyer to finally realize, like, no. Like, yeah, I do have a way forward that can end me up in a contract that is way better than this. Like, I'm not forced into doing this. Like you're saying, like, some people come to town. That's their only option. I do, like, have to say there are people in this town that know, for a fact, you are young. They're going to tell you you don't need any kind of music business education.

And they like it that way because you're from Kansas. and what they're handing you looks like a lot to you. And they know full well what they're doing when they're taking that percentage for that amount of money. And so those people can... Yeah, that's terrible. Yeah, I'm not here for that. But I understand what you're saying.

There are some great people. And I can think of them. If I had to go the other way, I can think of good people that I would have liked to be involved with and invested to, like, build. But I was really lucky that I wasn't scared enough to go along. with that crap deal. I think transparency is really the gist of it.

Is that even if it's not a lot of money, it may give you opportunities to grow and depend, you know, you should be in business with, what's the expression of you'd rather have a, uh, uh, you'd rather have a bad deal with good people than a good deal with bad people.

You know, it's like in the end that's going to be, those are the people you're going to grow with. over time. You can figure it out with you. But that said, you get cuts before your album,

your big album comes out. You have cuts. You got a cut on a Miley Cyrus album. There are pop writers who dream of that kind of thing and don't get it. And there are certainly Nashville writers who would love to be on a pop album

and spend tons of time in L.A. trying to get on pop albums and cannot do it. that must have been shocking to both you and your family, I would assume, and your friend. Yeah. Shocking to my parents, I sent them to the Miley concert, and my mom was joking that she didn't wear underwear because it was a Miley show. Like, they had a great time.

So they, I went in because Jeff was invited and Ty was invited, and Jeff couldn't make it. So Ty brought me. So I wasn't like they were asking for me by name. No one knew who I was. So I went in, and it was Mike Will. and he was in there. We were in a studio like off sunset in L.A. And he was like showing us these beats and these tracks.

And Ty was kind of adding production. And I mean, you know, everybody's smoking. So I'm like trying to keep up with people that are like much larger than me. So I was like pretty gone by the end of this session. And Mike was like, yo, like check this out. and he plays this one track and it was like pretty much the production that you hear on maybe you're right like full i was like wow this is amazing you know and he's like you should write on it and i was like what now you know like i was but at the same time i had no inhibitions either so i was

kind of like okay and i go into the vocal booth and i was like listening and this is before so bangers was when Miley did a full left turn. So I was like, are we doing the climb? Like, what is it? We're writing here. And he was like, such great advice. And he was pretty young.

Now, looking back on that, like, he was probably 24 or something like that. He was like, you should do you, because that's going to be the best thing that I can get from you. And I was like, okay. And I had just come through this breakup.

up and they I remember they like closed the curtains on the studio and I was like whoa I better do this fast because it's terrifying to be trapped in this box and I was like listening and I'm like and I just came up with this chorus about like years but it's probably not that long and I was like okay I think I have it they're like a melody and it's like no I like the whole chorus and that is exactly what you hear on that track and Miley like I come out of the booth um and Mike goes okay you guys stay here, I'm going to go to the club. And I was like, is this how it works? Kind of what you're saying, like,

do we do the work? And then Mike puts his name, you know, because he's already done the track. I don't know. And he was actually going to the club to grab Miley. So he brings her back and she's got her like, you know, striped pants and platform. She's like, oh my God, I love what you're doing.

It's like, rock, her doing pop and country. It's just like, you know, still drooling kind of. She sang that song. I felt so good about that cut because she sang that song exactly how I was singing it and feeling it. And I don't know because she's an actress or just like she's a musical family, but she is incredibly musical, like incredibly like, I don't know what that is, but I was really proud of how that came out. And yeah, that came out before my stuff came out.

So I felt pretty cool. you had a couple years between that and your album coming out. No matter how much your family is supportive of you and Kickstarter is working, there has to be an element of what did you do leaving these psychology jobs. Yeah. You know, for 20% of a song on, you know, Amalia. Yeah, I won't even tell you with the percentage of, like, yeah. But, I mean, that idea of like it's not, you know, it's really hard.

to make a living as a songwriter. Yeah. And I held out on publishing, like same kind of vibe that we're talking about. I was like, no, I'm going to wait till I can get the deal that's like the big deal. So I didn't have any coming in, which is a privilege, by the way, to say this out loud. Some people are like, I roughed it.

And you do rough it, but you rough it because you know you're not about to fall through the cracks. You know what I mean? And like starting in the music business, you've got to have some kind of a lot of people can do it because they have the buffer and, you know, you could move back with parents or whatever. Like, it is crazy, but like some people don't have that ability to risk everything like that and just want to acknowledge that.

Like, I did have that ability. So it sucked and I ate like butter and sarash on rice for a while, you know, and was on an air mattress. But I remember calling my lawyer being. like, oh my God, I think I hit my limit. It was like right before Burning House hadn't come out, but I think the first song had come out, my mistake. And I was

just like, and I did get in advance when I finally got signed to the record deal too. But like, that publishing one was the big one where I was just like, we got to give in. He said, no, I'm people holding out. Because then I got to sign that once I had Burning House, which was massive.

And that was like, that was the move. That's what they tell you really early on is hold out on your publishing deal, hold out on your publishing deal. And again, I think that's that I think you're right to identify the ability to hold out. But also what that does is, you know, what a publisher does is in theory they help connect you, the artist, with Tyler and Jeff the producer and the co-writers. That's what their job is along with, you know. But when you already have that, especially as the artist, you are the publisher. And that's why it's also often a co-publishing deal.

It's not supposed to be necessarily that the publisher does everything. The artist is also supposed to be entrepreneurial. It's also scrappy. It's not like it should be done for you. And so I think in a way you were acting as your publisher, and it was finding, you know, you were self-published. You weren't unpublished. Right.

You were self-published. No, and that's what's so fun. We had like a, right, well, I was pregnant, there was, they have all these kind of like award, like the RIA or NMPA or whatever. They had like an award thing for like multi-platinum songs. And I was pregnant. And so I was like, oh, I love this, taking up space while I'm pregnant. Because there's like, it was me and one other.

woman at this event here in Nashville and obviously like completely white. So I like showing up to those things, take us space, especially with the belly. But it's, yeah, I got to accept early on with Burning House and stuff too. Because in theory, my self-published company was a part of that song. You know, so yeah, it was pretty fun. You're right. Self-published first and then the big deal. Yeah.

whenever somebody says that they're unpublished, I always remind them that they're self-published. Because I think that there's an empowerment that songwriter should put in their back pocket. Okay, Burning House. That's a big song. Yeah, that was the one.

I remember I had this, well, I had this boyfriend in college and we, We're like on again, off again, like big part of my life. And the last time I broke up with him, actually it wasn't even the last time to be on, but at this point in my life, I had broken up with him. I was in Nepal and he was supposed to come meet me there. I was like volunteering, hanging out.

And I told him like the day he was supposed to fly out there that we were just going to be friends. And so it was kind of like this big shitty breakup. And I was going to see him a couple, like a year or two later maybe. And I was just like, I got to apologize. This is so heavy on my mind that I was, you know, like such a dick. And I need not for him to like forgive me, but just so he knows that I know that that wasn't cool. And the night before I was going to see him like a house was going on inside me. So I dreamt about this house on fire.

And he's in it. And I run inside and all the emergency crews like, don't go in there. The house is about to come down. And I run in there and I see him, my ex, and I can't get him out. So instead of leaving and saving myself, I lay down next to him, put my arms around him. So he doesn't have to die alone. Like super heavy. And the next morning woke up, be like, you guys, this was crazy, this dream.

And I called Ty and he was like, had his guitar out. And he started playing that rip. And I was telling him those words. And he was singing back like, I had a dream about a burning house. It's like, this is insane. And we came up with these verses. And we didn't know how to beat them with the chorus. And I remember we kind of had this little voice note with a little fire going on in the background.

We had been together. And we went in with Jeff. And he was like, first off, I love this. fire crackle. We got to have this in like the final recording. And he was like, oh, I got an idea for a chorus, which is such a Jeff thing. His melodies are so like catchy, iconic. And he was like, sleep walking, you know, like, wandering out night. Like so good. And I remember being honestly really embarrassed during that whole session. Because as we're like pulling out words and tweaking, like everything that was like really embarrassing for me to say was making it in the song just like I don't know why

you just feel like everyone knows exactly what you've been through and it just felt really raw and by the time we were done I didn't think we were done like I was like this doesn't feel like fully finished and they both were like now this is definitely finished um and then once I saw like people responding to the song it's like oh no maybe they're right I kind of get it and I remember those The first shows until now, anytime I play that song, I can see it in people's eyes. Like, they know exactly this. Maybe it's a different setup, but they have the same feeling. Like there's something you can't go back and fix, you know?

And it's just like a heavy heaviness. And I am super grateful that, you know, Doug Morris had always loved that song from the first day he signed me. and I was on the Opry. We'd launched a different single. I was on the Opry and I sang that song as like the second song you get to sing at the Opry and this really influential morning show DJ named Bobby Bones had me on the next day. He goes, what was that other song you play? And he played a clip of Burning House and it like shot up the charts.

Like his listeners all were like buying it and getting excited because it's out on like a little EP. And they were having like a change of the guard of the who was running Sony Nashville at that time. Because I was always Sony, New York and Sony Nashville. And so Julie, who had been kind of stepping in to help, who was really close with Doug, they were like, we're doing this. We're moving. Like, Burning House is a single. They don't move that fast in country ever. So it kind of took someone from outside being in that position to say, no, we're going.

and we got this thing called like I Heart on the Verge, which is where they super support with radio. And this song that everybody was like, well, yeah, we love this song, but like, it can't possibly go anywhere, being, you know, new female in a ballad and all that kind of stuff. And it just shot all the way up.

And it was like so amazing and unreal, like, all these artists and fans telling me, like, I remember where I was when I first heard it. Like, I remember Casey Musker was telling me, She's like, it's really inspiring to think that like something different can win on the radio. And like, yeah, it just was like such a wild way to get introduced to everybody. But I mean, I'll never get sick of playing that song. So I'm really thankful that like that's that's the big thing that I get to live with, you know.

You mentioned Casey and she's obviously been another vocal artist about, country radio and its inability to embrace women. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? On Casey? No, no, no. Oh, just good.

Oh, yeah. You know, it's like the whole not trying to give radio a pass or anything, but it's definitely the whole industry that's like set up this way, which is really, I think from an outsider perspective, it's really hard to imagine.

But like me in 2015 to 2020, still am told to my face, we have to come up with specific strategies to overcome the fact that you are a woman in this face. Like not an innuendo, like not like a we'll talk around it, but like actually to my face. And they're not being derogatory.

They're not like jerked. that are saying it, there are people that are like being pragmatic about what the status is. And it's like in the beginning, I kept being like really confused about that. And then there are definitely some backwards reasoning, obviously, that keeps supporting it. There's a lot of people that just accept it. Like, this is how it is. And this is just how it is in this space. And what are you going to do? Just find a way to keep moving forward. And then when you start asking questions, like people don't like that obviously and then come up with wild responses like well women are the majority listeners and really what they want is a guy singing to them so they can imagine it as their

boyfriend like that is like why women listen to music like that was insane to hear to my they do the same thing in Latin music I mean really yeah those both those genres used that exact same reasoning. It's really, it feels wild to be reduced, like half the population, even if it is true for some people, which is whatever you want to argue, like to think that the entire music that is, that has existed in every single culture since the beginning of time, that is an integral part of society, that somehow like women

it's we're reduced that that is the only it just is insane it just is like insulting on a lot of levels but yeah that's what you're whatever right or wrong that is what people are telling themselves and it just keeps

kind of you know and this thing too like this isn't just about like white women this applies to like why you don't see people of color like beyond like a few token people like that in any effort to include people or give opportunities or make sure people are paid correctly is somehow like forced equity you know these like free market guys show up all the sudden like right you can't do that it's just like this is like the amount of mental gymnastics that people can do

to somehow make themselves feel like that this is totally normal and totally okay when like objectively like it's even worse now than it was in the 90s and the 70s and like it was never great like we're always like around 30% maybe like white women and now we're down to like 15

of radio like getting played on the radio that's better this year than it was two years ago or five years ago when Burning House was big you know that there were I feel like there were no women that were getting played. You know, there was a sprinkle of Miranda Lambert

and of Carrie Underwood. And they would end up with, because of their four songs combined, that would be the 15%. It wasn't like 15% of songs recorded by women. Yeah. Exactly. What are things that the industry could do

to rectify that justification? What can what you know come to Jesus moment can the country can country music or some of these other you know parts of genres what can they do to actually make things fair

um I have spent a lot of time in like diversity and inclusion committees like for the recording academy the same stuff comes out and for the ACMs and you see needles moving really slowly because there's, I mean, it's just practical. There's like lots of solutions you can think of, you know, that are like little things

that can bring people in the door and have people meet important people and get funding and like in any industry. Like if you're in it, you can see if you're not committed to being, you know, fully head in the sand. There's definitely little things you can do. But I honestly think like, and people did think like switching technologies to streaming might even it out, but like ideas get transferred.

Like technology doesn't like erase those ideas. So I think it's, I honestly think especially the more I feel like I learn from black women in this space to like you got to like you got to like build something new. like there's got to be a whole rewrite because you're not it's going to take too long for people in positions of power to like relearn if they can even relearn because you see like i'm telling you this stuff right now but like they don't want to hear any of this stuff like and that's the other thing is like any of the artists in this space it's like career suicide to even discuss this in Aline. Yeah, my publishing company,

we work a lot with She's the Music and the conversations that I think need to happen are men in the business need to recognize the disparity and then they need to

make sure that women are in positions of to me, I think they need to be more female A&R people on the record side. There need to be more executive producers that are women and there need to be more producers that are women. Because I think women in general

just are, they don't care about bringing in a man into a session and they don't care about bringing in people of color into a session or people of a different gender. But left to a 510 white guy in an executive production position, they'll often find another 5-10 white guy to bring it. Yeah. Same goes for white women, I would argue. Yeah, I mean, maybe that's a, and again,

I think that they're, I don't want to bring completely all the issues, but I think having an opportunity to, you know, the artists, you know, making sure that they bring in people, people who are different, you know. Realizing that you have that power to get who's coming in. And you need people in leadership. You need diverse leadership. And you need diverse membership. So any of these like recording academy and, you know, anybody that's like furthering careers or, you know, television moments that are helping people out or decision making spaces like in Spotify or streaming or country radio, you need diverse people at the top. Like if you have a show,

You need diverse writers. If you have, like, and you need diverse membership because then when you go to vote, it's all like 65 plus percent is white men over 50, making decisions for who's getting honored in the highest regard in our industry. And then, yeah, in all these rooms, people, like this mental break is like just because something exists

like it is. Like people think power, like the assumption is that power and positions of power are justified. and earned. Like people will all the time be like, well, if they were good enough, they would be in the room. If they were good enough,

they would have broke through. And like, that really has to get fully laid out in your mind that there is a specific set of barriers, this entire way, why those people are not in the room. And the few really exceptional people that don't look like you do,

they have to be 100 times better than anybody else. to be there. And like, so each of those things, yeah, everybody has to learn all of that. And while you're waiting for everybody to learn that careers are, like in country music, careers have been crushed and livelihoods have been crushed and we all have been deprived of incredible music because of these fallacies. And so people right now are losing it. So like, do we keep waiting? Do we keep waiting on people to like figure? it out because these guys and these power positions are not about to step aside.

Like, I've been in the rooms where people have overly told them what they needed to do and they don't. Really? So, like, I appreciate she's the music and I appreciate a lot of the women that are pushing for things. But they will, I mean, nobody wants to say, like, everyone wants to be positive, right? Like, it's happening. We're getting there.

But you also need, like, this realistic, like. It's not happening. I don't think people are being unrealistic about the fact that it's not moving, certainly at that air clip. I think the whole idea, I think one of the issues even after Black Lives Matter this year, after George Floyd, I should say, was that all the labels that promised to put women in power after the Me Too movement still haven't done that, even though they all signed the letter saying they would. So when they then go and say, well, no, we're going to add more diversity, why should we believe those labels who still haven't addressed the other issue? And maybe it's like, I know, maybe, I don't know if it's appropriate for, for sessions, labels, or whatnot to be exactly what the demographics are in this country.

But if hypothetically, certainly popular music, which is supposed to be the summation, of all of the genres, maybe their numbers should actually represent, you know, the actual population of the country. Well, I don't think you have to get down to percentages. I think you have to, like, baby steps. You just got to let people in the room. Like, they're not even getting a shot and, like,

or even getting considered for a shot. Like, and that's where, like, the music business doesn't have, but diversify the stage, never famous. They're going to come with a job portal. for like crew and touring musicians. So you have it. You're not just who knows who. You can see two plus years experience.

I can hire this guy. I don't have to guess and say like, well, this is a handout. No, he's like a talented gal or guy and I can hire him. Like the music industry is just like so much who you know. And yeah, sorry, I got off on the, I really wanted to mention them and I can't remember what the other thing you were saying was. Well, just to go back for a minute,

you go on this you do get the red carpet treatment during Burning House. It is the moment of no, you're not just somebody who aspires, you're doing it. You go and you have this moment of being a star really becomes that. Do you start realizing that you've made it?

I think Tyler and I always talk about this. Like success just doesn't like like sink in. Like it doesn't become part of you, you know? And so it never, it never really, I think you just build your confidence in who you are. And that seems to be a separate curve than

I am successful and I have all these things. Like I don't go into a room and be like, let me list up all the stuff. And now I'm going to be good today in the writing room. It's like, you know, like I think either you, you feel good about, your work and you've done enough practice and you feel like you got something to offer or you don't. And also

age too. Like I think being older and being a mom now, like I'm, I feel like being tired enough where you're just like, if it doesn't matter, I'm not spending my time on it because I'm so tired. Like, I think that kind of streamlines it for me too. But yeah, I feel like also there's kind of like that thing too, right where you always feel like you haven't made it enough you know so like there's always something else to want so which sucks because people who

have amazing things to be grateful for like don't get to enjoy it so I try really hard to see what I'm grateful for so I don't fall into that between the release of that album and this new album there's

four and a half years you know that's a whole college career. And a lot of things have happened in that time. But it seems like there have been a lot of, there must have been a lot of personal growth, a lot of things that have happened. Obviously, you now have a child.

So things happen, the cuts you do have between the albums outside, you know, you start working with Sam Smith, you have Vince Gill, like the legend of, legends, you know, strangely you get train and travi. You know, you have Diplo, who does his country album, which was awesome. You know, you do a lot of stuff that's outside of being an artist. But here you finally have this album come out and it does so well. What took so long?

I take a long time, I think, because the first album, and took like five years, you know, or whatever, just work on and get right. And so I think I like taking a long time anyways and tweaking. And then when I thought it was ready and we put Diane out, then I had a difference in values with my Sony Nashville label. And I left. So I took the project and had it.

And I just, instead of just being Nashville in New York, I was just New York because Rob Stringer was like, okay, we can do this. And so then, which was amazing that how the other things happening this whole time because I still was working and like touring internationally and having things come out and working with people. But it was it was devastating at the time to have to feel like you were regrouping, you know? And but then from that I got to have moments where I added other songs to the

record like classic jack antonoff and um changes that i got to hear that harry did with tie and you know a couple um songs that made this album super great so in the end it's that whole happen out was supposed to happen but in the middle of it i was really pissed you know and just you know heartbroken and i think the last song on this album girl like me is that's like the note from the author. After you hear all the songs, you hear the note from the author that is like, that day she came in and Natalie was like, I'm playing the song and this is like your, you know, your song, your comeback song. And I was just like, this is so sad and depressing. You know, like, this is me, you know? And she was like, what do you think about this chorus? And I was

like, they're going to give up on you. You're going to give up on them. And just like, This for me, I was lucky that it, you know, I guess it happened later in life, but at some point you realize the world is not what you thought it was. And people let you down and you just get heartbroken. And that disillusionment, you can stay jaded and pissed about it or you can sort of pick up the pieces and see that this is like a freedom to actually see things for how they are and see yourself for how you are. love the world and yourself for how they are. So yeah, that time was that was the journey, but I

made it to the other side. Yeah. Wait, do you feel the pressure to do things like, you know, TikTok all the time and your social media presence? Yes. Yes. I'll be really honest

with you. I don't like it. I feel tons of pressure. I like don't have time between taking care of a baby and all that kind of stuff. And even when you have people that are like helping and they're like, well, here we'll get kind of like a list of things that you want to post anyways. And like it's just never it's easy. It's like a lot of work. I know it sounds so lame to complain about it. It makes you wonder what things were like in the 60s.

You know, it's like they had to do her a lot, but they weren't having to go like that. You know, they didn't have. No. They were just partying and having a good time and making music. Here's a random 60s question, and it's totally irrelevant. But your last name is Oaks. Are you related to Phil Oaks in any way? No.

I kind of want to start saying I am just for kicks, but no. People ask you that question all the time. I used to get asked that at the grocery store. No, I mean, not younger people normally, but older people will know who Phil Oaks is. But both you guys have good lyrics. So in this next segment, because I know that one of your, first things was opening for them. I asked our friend Dan Smyers from Dan and Shea,

what would Dan ask Cam on And the writer is? You asked Dan this? Yeah, so he has a few questions for you. I love Dan. Oh, yeah. I mean, how do you not? Yeah. Dan is one of those, he's like both of you guys have this pop sensibility

that allows you to write here being L.A. and it's really hard for L.A. people to write Nashville. It's hard for Nashville people to write in Nashville. Everybody thinks they can, but not a lot of people do it successfully. Dan is just like, he gets it. And he is such a, I just got to say, hard of gold and such a hard worker.

Like, everybody works hard, but nobody outworks, Dan. I guarantee you, nobody out works that guy. All right, well, he asks you four questions. So I'm going to let through all of them. First one, can we go to Village Pub for a Guinness? He said, or five. That's so sweet.

I love him and his wife, Abby, and we have our third dog because of her. And like, yeah, we'll meet them, done it. Okay, cool. I'll let them do that. Somehow I'm in the middle of this. Number two, you've collaborated with some of the most successful yet credible artists in the world. How does your approach differ when you're working with someone? like Sam Smith or Harry Styles versus working on your own project.

Love that. I wish I was like a Swiss Army knife that had different approaches. But I, for better or for worse, just have mine. And I'm, you know, normally very anxious about it. And for example, with Sam, when I went in for Palace, Tyler said, okay, she's coming in. Tell her she's got to play guitar. She'll say she doesn't want to play guitar. just say he wanted to play guitar.

So I come in and Sam was like, oh, can you play guitar? And I was like so embarrassed. You know, because I kind of suck a guitar. And I was just, you know, coming up with these chords, but it sounds so much like something that I would come up with

because I'm the one on guitar. And it was such a beautiful song. I'm so proud of that for so many reasons. I'm obsessed with those lyrics. And it went so well. But yeah, all that. to say, I only have the one mode.

So I don't know what else to do. I'm going in different order. Okay. Before he said, you have possibly the most pure voice I've ever heard. Has singing always come naturally or was it learned through training? Art of it's natural. My dad's an incredible singer. I think I got this from him.

This like singing really mid pitch, your aqua pelletness will appreciate. like very kind of like in you got to be right in the middle and then I was in that choir and in lessons to really help because the muscle you know like opera singers they can become you know like coloratura or whatever like you could train your instrument to go in whatever direction you want so I definitely had to train it to get it to do the big moments and the small moments that I feel like finally on this record the other side I'm actually capable of doing like executing what's in my mind. Number three, which goes back to what we were talking about.

So I think it's important to end on this one. I know I want one, two, four, three, but well, it is what it is. You're such a voice for equality in music and I admire that. As male artists in country music, what can we do? What can we be doing better to motivate change and inspire the future generation of our industry? I think you got to be just as vocal as the people who are saying there are no problem. There's no problems. Like, you have to be, and especially this younger generation really appreciates that, and that's who you're speaking to. You're not speaking to the people who've

already made up their minds. You're speaking to the people that are coming in that are going to have to face all this stuff if we don't dismantle it for them. Be so loud and so explicit about what you're saying because they're absorbing it. And it's really easy to think that you're being obnoxious. I think it all day long about myself. But they got to know. They got to know. Our last segment is going to be five for five.

I'm going to list five things and just tell me, you know, what comes off the top of your head. Okay. We're going to start with. Let's start because I like that she's the one to advise you, your sister. Yeah. Just a word? Yeah, I don't know. There are no rules. Sure, a word, a sentence.

She's my best friend, and we call each other Amelia and Abigail, those two geese that I think are from aristic cats or something like that. So she's just like my other half. Let's go with Tyler Johnson. Oh, he's my musical brother, and he just, he's. He's a musical brother, and he just, he's, he's. He's definitely like the engine. Like he just keeps, I don't know how to describe Tyler. He just will, he's had a vision for what he wanted to do. And of course he doubted himself like we all doubted himself.

But he just never stopped and like became great at things he wanted to become great at and like got in these amazing rooms. And people saw him for who he is. And yeah, just I'm really proud of him. That sounds really cheesy to say. Jeff Basker. Genius, mentor. Like, I think that's the, he's just like such a unique character and like such a teacher. And I think the older I get, the more I fully understand all the things that he did for me.

Your mother. imaginative, hilarious, worried, and, like, poetic. The people who donated to your crowdfunding effort. That's my community. Those are my roots. Those are my people that cared when nobody had to care. and yeah I didn't think

I didn't even realize like what a community I had until they did that well thank you for doing our podcast thank you so nice talking to you yeah you know you have like what I think

Dan said and you know people who know and watch you see that you're vocal on behalf of this next generation and I think that's all of our responsibility in all the cities and to do that for this next generation of music because it's not just tearing down walls between genres,

which you've done very well, or between genders, which you've done really well. It's, you know, it's all of it, and it takes a lot of communication, and then it takes a lot of transparency.

You're obviously very smart, and it's important to have leaders like you in the business. So, you know, thank you. you know, we'll have to write someday. Yeah, I'm in. That would be really fun.

And we will put a Svortando in it just, just for the nod. Cam. Like that. I could, you know, I could do a whole version of Diane like that. Yeah. You have that whole intro, which is so like, now that I know your acapella background, it's like, Of course that's your intro to that song. Everyone has to fight me to take harmonies off of things, basically.

It's like, I don't think we need all four cam. Maybe we do. Do you need to stack them? Then you need a do-a-dum, do-dic-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-. So funny. Nice, Acapella, Dorsey, Night. All right, thank you. Thank you so much.

Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Gle. phone.