And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 131: Chuck Harmony

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Today’s guest is an American music producer, musician, songwriter and entrepreneur, based in Nashville, Tennessee and is a three-time Grammy Award nominee and winner of the 2011 NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Song for Fantasia’s “Bittersweet". After college, our guest relocated to Atlanta, Georgia where he garnered his first major songwriting credit as a co-writer alongside Ne-Yo on Celine Dion's "I Got Nothin' Left" from her 2007 album Taking Chances. Since then he’s earned production, composition, and songwriting credits on songs by artists including Rihanna, Ne-Yo, Toni Braxton, Jesse J, Mary J. Blige, Jennifer Hudson, Olly Murs, Kanye West, Janet Jackson, John Legend, NAS, Kelly Rowland, Johnny Gill, Keyshia Cole, Keri Hilson, K'naan, Bono, Corinne Bailey Rae, Seal and Sara Evans. In 2015, our guest partnered with longtime collaborator Claude Kelly forming the progressive band Louis York and released their debut EP, Masterpiece Theater – Act I, which they released through their creative hub and independent record label Weirdo Workshop.  In 2017 the two partnered again to form the educational and community building initiative Tiny Book Club through their Weirdo Workshop umbrella which has held in-person events in Nashville, New York, Los Angeles, and New Jersey as well as virtual meet-ups online while the country has been on shutdown throughout the Covid-19 pandemic. Our guests’ main objective is to continue to promote excellence in music through first class musicianship, empathetic business practices, and pure inspiration. And The Writer Is… Chuck Harmony!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. www.com. Hey, welcome, Mikkel and Tor from Stargate to And The Writer Is. I had some questions because you guys started this music program called Lamp,

and I wanted to know more about it. How is LAMP different from the other music? music programs. Well, Ross, as you know, music has been my passion since I was a kid, and I actually applied to music school but didn't get in. So we knew at LAMP, we had to be very different from traditional education. We will see you and hear you purely based on your talent. Did anyone ever ask you about your GPA in a session? I think not. We actually teach you how music is done in the real world, like you're in the Stargate session. Amazing. If I wanted to be a part of it, how would I apply? Simply go to lampmusic.com.

That's L-A-A-A-M-P-Music.com. We think a lot of the most interesting people in music don't necessarily have high school or college education so we don't require any degrees. All you need to do is send in your music. And that's how we decide who gets into the program. This is a paid program. So what, you know, if I have to pay to be a part of it,

what kind of value would I be getting as a student? You'll leave with an amazing number of songs in your catalog because the absolutely most valuable thing in the music business are the actual songs. You'll also have studio time every single day and collaborate with other super talented people in the community. And since we're also bringing in top executives, publishers and managers, it's also a great place to connect and have your music heard by some pretty amazing people.

What would a week look like at this program? So every Monday we have a new mentor coming in and they're talking about their most valuable lessons. Then we go to the studios and start writing on this week's assignment. And then the mentor will go from room to room and actually interact and work and help write these songs and shape these ideas. And we deliver them on Friday. And every Monday we have a listening session, give feedback,

and the whole process repeats. Who are some of the mentors? Some of the mentors we have so far are Justin Tranter, Neo, Circuit, Jassy, John Cunningham, Emily Warren, Charlie X-X, and of course, us, Stargate. So here's the real question. Can greatness be taught? Well, most of our students will already be pretty good. So we focus on the difference between good and great. And I think every single mentor that's in this program, they've done great stuff. So they know what that sounds like and feels like. And our mission is to help you take your music to the next level. How can I find more information on this?

You go to our website, which is lampmusic.com, with two A's, or our Instagram, which is also lamp music. And that's where you send your music in and apply. For those who don't know what LAMP stands for, what is it? Los Angeles Academy for Artists and Music Production. Awesome. Congratulations, and I hope some of our listeners get to be participants. Vince, this is really cool, man. Congrats. Thank you so much, Ross. Thanks, Ross. Be

soon. Welcome to End The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's multi-grammy nominated song, Craftsman isn't just a multi-platinum, multi-genre producer. He isn't just a weirdo. Nope. He isn't just a master of melody, but he is the only harmony we've ever had on this show. After having crafted records with R&B pop legends like Mary J. Blige, Neo, John Legend, Fantasia, Rihanna, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. This guy started a community of open-minded intellectuals who advocate for and practice self-acceptance with one of our prominent and the writer is Alums. All the way from East St. Louis via Tennessee, this guest is an actual artiste. And the writer is Chuck Harmony. Yes, yes.

What's up, man? How are you? I'm doing great. How are you doing? You know, I, you wouldn't remember this, but I met you at, like, I want to say it was like a Grammy party or something like that, you know, 10 years ago kind of thing. And I just remember it being, you know, when you're, when you don't have like the songs that people know you as. Like for me, I just didn't, I was hustling so hard. Right.

And like, you know, I just remember that feeling of meeting someone where you're like, oh, man, that guy's, that guy's a legend. This guy hasn't figured out. It's cool to have a, to have a conversation with you. Yeah, man. You know, many years later. But how are you? I'm doing pretty good, man.

Can't complain. You've lived in all kinds of cities in this country that have prominent music histories. And you started in East St. Louis, which is actually in Illinois for those who don't know. Exactly. There are so many huge writers and artists that have come out of East St. Louis. Why? Why East St. Louis? Yeah.

Why East St. Louis? What is it about St. Louis that creates good music? You know, I think St. Louis is specifically East St. Louis. It's like, it's such a good center for creativity because it's like you got Chicago, you got Memphis and people traveled here from the south for a better life. That's why they migrated from Mississippies and North Carolina's to come here. And so it's so much so much history, so much, so much musical history in the soil here that you can't help. But if that bug bites you, you can't help and take it seriously. Were your parents musicians?

My father was a musician. He could sing really well. He was mainly a preacher, but he could sing really well. Oh, so you grew up doing music in church? Yeah. I fell in love with the drums first. Probably like most black little boys. I just want to beat on some things.

But I fell in love with the drums first. And I just went from there to the tuba to the trombone. Just following music wherever it took me. Tuba and trombone, tuba is kind of nuts. Because I don't know, like other than marching bands, like, and sort of traditional choruses, our orchestra is like, where do you hear a tuba?

I mean, it's amazing for a producer and a writer because you learn it's an old-fashioned bass line. Yeah. You know, what kind of music were you playing that brought you into tuba and? Well, I was in the marching band at Lincoln. And so we were playing all of the hits of that era. And so it just really gave me a passion for bassline.

And that's the foundation of a lot of great songs, especially the songs that I like, like Quincy Jones. He's a baseline guy. And so that's where I got that love. Yeah, I feel like a lot of people in sessions naturally bring out sort of just block chords. They just sort of they want you to write a really cool melody around that. And it's sort of a big mistake because a baseline allows you to play with someone else.

you know? Yeah. A watch sound and a bass line's like a feeling. Right. There has to be some groove to the situation at all times. I don't care. Like I am a chord guy. Like piano is my main instrument,

but I have to find a groove, even if it's internally to where I can present the foundation of something. Did you listen to music in the house that wasn't you know, that that wasn't religious music? Did your dad listen mostly to, you know, church music if he's a preacher? Or was he listening to, you know, all kinds of music? Well, first, mainly we listened to gospel music.

You know, my father, he was an avid music listener. So, but he left when I was nine. So I had this small window with his musical influence. And so when he was around, it was Anita Baker and Marvin Gay and Miles Davis and Stevie Wonder. Like he was a real Joe sample, Herbie Hancock. And I would sit there at three years old and just watch him listen to music. And so I got all of that early. But when he left, my mom was like, if it ain't gospel, it ain't right.

So she don't want to hear it. And so from that point, I was listening to all gospel music until I got into the jazz band and the choir at school and just went from that point. And listening to music outside, you know, because if you were exposed to that, knowing that that music existed and then, you know, you're listening to gospel at home. In that time between that and jazz band, were you ever sneaking records? No. What it allowed me to do, I tell people this all the time, it allowed me to drink. up my own music. I started writing songs at like 10 or 11 because I had that musical history with my father. And so this time, at the gospel time where we were only allowed

to listen to gospel music, I was just writing in my head and I was playing on my instruments and learning. So that was my musical nut, if you will. Why are so many good songwriters, why were they what is the connection between church music gospel music why does that work so well in pop music what in that training helps so much in pop and rmb and you know any sort of commercial music outside of gospel it seems like all the good musicians played in church why i think because church, there's a competitiveness to the music. And so you had to be great. You had to be really good to play at church. Like if you are the drummer, there's a lot of people that want to be the drummer at that church. So you actually have to be great. And so you just, I think playing in church allow musicians to hone their chops at a high level. You know what I'm saying? And so when you get in the pop world, if you got chops up here or, you're, you know, in the sky. And when you get into pop world, you don't really need all of that. And so you can kind of, you can kind of pick and choose. You know, you're going to learn the majority of the, the,

the vast majority of music that you need to do pop music. When you started playing in jazz band, did you play, having already played at that point, a bunch of instruments, what was your instrument in jazz band? Believe it or not, I was the vocalist in jazz band. Damn. Yeah. Sound like anybody in particular? Did I sound like anybody in particular?

No, like when I, if you're a jazz drummer, you want to be Chick Webb. And if you're a, you know, if you're a saxophonist, you want to be, you know, Charlie Parker, whatever it is. You want to be, you know, Miles Davis if you're on trumpet. But when you're a singer, there's sort of a, you know, there's a rich history of great singers in jazz. And I feel like, how do you not, you know, I don't know, what did you listen to that you want, you know, did you emulate anybody? Yeah, I emulated Nat King Cole. He was kind of like, me studying Nat King Cole for jazz as a singer allowed me to start opening up as a piano player when I got to college. Because Nat King Cole is a beyond great piano player as well as he is a singer.

And so that's who I emulated. I just thought, first of all, he used a lot of his classical knowledge to present. the kind of jazz that he presented, which was cool for me because I was in choral chorus and stuff. So I was learning like operatic stuff. And so it allowed me to still use that and do jazz. Where did you go after high school with having that skill set of playing all those instruments? Did you stay in East St. Louis? Or when did you know that way? I, at 17, I graduated high school at 17 and I moved to Alabama. I got a full-paid scholarship for singing, actually.

And that was my first stop of many because I moved around quite a lot. But I was always following music, you know what I'm saying? Wherever music would take me, I'll go. So you moved to Alabama for music. What kind of, did you still study jazz? in school? Yeah, but I wasn't singing jazz. I was in the choir. And so with the choir, if you're on full pay scholarship, they kind of limit all the singing that you could do. So I use that time to start learning how to play the piano, like really get into it. Like I was

like I said, I was introduced to the piano through Nat King Cole in high school, but I didn't really know how to play. And so I never really thought that I would be a piano player, but once I got to college, I honed in on that. And one of the band directors heard me play. And I was just learning, like, really just learning how to play. And he was like, so who have you been studying with? And I was like, nobody. He's just like, how long you've been taking lessons? I was like, I just started. And he was like, you know how to read piano music? I was like, no, I know how to read tuba music. music and trombone music, but I'm just, like, I'm really just learning this thing.

And he was so impressed because he thought I'd been studying jazz that whole time as a piano player. So he gave me a scholarship. And I went from there. Did you write at that point? When did you start writing? Was it as soon as you could play piano? Or were you writing even earlier? I was writing. I would write lyrics all the time. starting nine, 10 years old, I would take these, I don't know if you remember, but they would have these, what you call it, these tapes that you can sing to. Like when beneath my wings, it would just have the track and the background vocals.

What you call it, a TV track kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. And they used to use those kinds of things at the church that I went to. And so I would take the tapes home. and just start writing to the instrumentals of that and so that and then sing them at church sometimes do you remember what the first song was that you wrote no I remember my pastor really giving me a hard time about making sure my lyrics were right because I wrote it it was my first song and I was like I want to sing it next Sunday you know what I'm saying like I was I was also bold but um

he really scrutinized my lyrics he was like yeah because I can't have have like false doctrine. I went to a predominantly white church and I was I was like one the only black kids at the church and so I was already an eyeball and I'm but I'm full of bigger about this song that I just wrote. So he went and just scrutinized the lyrics and he was like honestly I can't find them wrong with it. It's actually good and he let me sing it. That's amazing. He said it made sense doctrine wise which like as a tenure I was just writing whatever I felt or whatever I heard, but that was the beginning. I mean, it must say a lot about, you know, listening to gospel records growing up.

I imagine that it keeps, you know, I feel like we all naturally sort of emulate the kind of music that we're listening to. So I remember a professor talking about how, like, your musical diet, that whatever music you take in is the music you're going to put out in a lot of levels. And I think that that's interesting that even at that age you were writing authentic music for that genre. Yeah. What you started thinking about writing music,

you know, secular music, when you're starting to write music outside of lyrics outside of the church? That didn't come to much later on. I actually fell into songwriters. again, like through rap music. Because after college, the jazz bug bit me. And so I was, my desire was to be a jazz piano player for the longest. That was, I was on that track.

Like I ain't caring nothing about no lyrics. I was just instrumentals and me just doing my thing and coming up with these, these kind of jazz compositions. And that led to me meeting this rap producer. He just happened to hear one of these jazz songs that I was doing. And he was like, yo, you produce? I was like, produce. I don't even know what that mean.

I'm a jazz piano player. And so he was like, you should come by the house and just do what you do. And I show you how to produce. This name was K.O. K.K.H. by the way. But I used to go over his. K.O. K. K.K.C. I think his biggest record he had to date was T.I. why you want to go and do that.

Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, done, done, yeah. Yeah, but I would go over his house and he would just have this drum loop playing, and I'll just start doing my thing over it, minus the piano improvisations. And kind of how my music sounds now, that's how it started. It was really orchestral, and I'm always thinking about a string arrangement under the baseline and the keyboards. I was at that place when I first started. That's what my jazz was going to sound like.

And so just working with him and seeing how he turned that into like rap songs that inspired that whole thing. Were you in, I forgot, were you in Atlanta at this point? I was in Atlanta. What brought you from Alabama to Atlanta? Clark Atlanta University. Okay. I got a scholarship to play a jazz orchestra out there.

And so I moved. I always wanted to move out there because when I was in Alabama, I was also in a singing group. And so we used to go to Atlanta and just try to do boys to men covers and stuff. But we never made it. What was that? The truth. Did you guys do original music to you?

We tried at it. I just think, yeah, I was way into jazz and way into boys to men. And so we were really just trying to be boys to men, really. We just wanted to do covers and maybe get a record deal, but it wasn't, we weren't really into, like, we wasn't recording a lot. That wasn't our thing. We was doing shows. I feel like people think jazz is, if you don't know anything about jazz, it's just, you just that that music and they don't realize the difference that so many different variations of being a

piano player in that world you know if you're uh duke ellington versus count bassy versus the lonious monk versus you know nat kid cole or whatever it is they're all going to be so different yeah um did you find yourself you know becoming your own style or did you find yourself being more Duke Gellington kind of writing to me it was always really chord stuff like just really interesting

chord changes versus the Loneus Monk which is like how many keys can you stomp on with like emotion you know it's like different what kind of piano playing

would you it's it's funny because up until recently I didn't understand a lot about my piano playing because when people hear me they're like man

you're original you're original like I don't hear it people play like you. And that don't mean that I'm better than anybody. It's just an original thing. And so I didn't realize up until recently how much being self-taught had a lot to do with that. And I have a condition where my handshake is just a, it's hereditary, my mom handshake.

And so that element also affects the way I played a piano tremendously, which actually gives me a unique sound. It gives me a unique way of expressing myself. How does it affect your piano play? I mean, your hands shake at any moment. And so I feel like the heaviness of my piano playing, which is always, even if it's, even if it's sweet, it's still an aggressive way, I feel like that's me overcompensating for the fact that my hands might shake at any moment. So I got to to make sure that, like, it's a real aggressiveness that comes to my approach to playing because there's some overcompensation.

But it makes for the most honest expression. When you're in Atlanta and you're showing what production is, I feel like a lot of people don't get mentors and they don't get people who just kind of, you know, show them how the ropes and how to record. a studio. When did you go from, like, wow, that's production to give me the studio for an hour.

I'm going to make my own beats. Your skill set of playing drums, knowing bass lines, playing piano. I mean, what an amazing skill set. And being able to sing. That says you can write 100% songs, which so few people can. When did you start saying, oh, no, I got this.

I'm going to try to do all of it. Yeah. And this is no disrespect to K.O. Because I love KO. And I really appreciate what he's done for me in this regard. But once I found out that the producer and rap music was literally like if you can make a beat, like literally like an MPC, like if you can do that thing and it's quantized and you can get anybody to play on it. He's the producer and I was the guy that played keys, additional keyboards or whatever,

the credits would read. And I was like, but literally like a beat would be playing and everybody would be out the room and I would make this whole orchestration. And I was like, I could do the beat. I play drums. And so I bought me an MPC. And then I just went into my zone just trying to create music from my own point. of you. When you were finished making those first beats, who did you send them to? Nobody.

I was an introvert. I, like a lot of times people, they think of successful people and they think of hustlers. Like they think of people who's just out and they just like sending their beats. But by the time, life had beat me up from that little kid where I was bold enough to give my, my, my song to my pastor and asked him to let me sing it. Up until this point, life had beat me up. You know what I'm saying? And so I wasn't as confident. So I was just literally listening to him and playing for people that I knew.

And just by the grace of God, I was always in a position where somebody would respect my talent enough to pass it along or say, this guy is good. And that's how my name got to circling around Atlanta. This guy, well, a couple of people. One of my ex-girlfriends, she would play my music for everybody. And she introduced me in the music industry or she just is, or she's just a fan. Was she just, she was my girlfriend. She had been in the music business and she got out of it. And so when she met me, I met her at church.

And so we just had more of a. a personal relationship and I was scared to play her my songs and I played her this one song called All This Time It was 100% or I just I wrote it produced it. It was a ballot I got somebody else to sing it

And I played it for And she for the longest I was asking I was like I kind of do music And she was like I don't really want to hear your music Because if it's whack I'm not going to like you anymore And so one day I built up enough nerve to just start playing it in my car. And she was blown away by it.

So she used some of her connects at a certain point to introduce me to interesting people like Tony Rich. And I met Pebbles from back in the day I started playing at her church and I did her gospel album. And it just always worked like that. What year is that? it's like 2000 it was right before I got in the business so I got in the business like 2007

it's like 2003 2004 so 2003 and 2004 all the way to when you said you were getting into the business that's three years hustling you know

going to the studio and making music what are you um you know if you're not already selling records or selling beats or you know are you playing shows

goes? Like how do you make living in Atlanta before you make? Well, I was making a good living in Atlanta. I was the music director of one of the biggest United Methodist churches in that whole region called Ben Hill United Methodist Church. And so I was making like a real person's salary as a musician. Like I had a nice house and two cars like I was. Amazing. And I was also playing around town. You know what I'm saying? I had a steady gig with this guy named milkshake. And he always had a gig Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. No matter what, come rain or shine, he had a gig Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

And we met at that United Methodist Church. And I started playing for him. And it was a lucrative little situation for myself. Why leave that situation? Neo. Neo was literally the only person that could get me out of that situation. that was the only opportunity where I was like, yeah, I'm not going to pass this up.

Because I was like, I was really indifferent about like over-exerting myself to try to make it in this business. Like I was good and I was doing people's demos and I was doing songs like for Tony Rich and Pebbles. Like everybody wants to be a millionaire. Don't get me wrong. But I was saying at that point coming from where I can. from, I was in a good place. And I was also grown, so you couldn't just pull the wool over my eyes. And so a lot of opportunities from Daryl Simmons wanting to sign me and Dallas Austin.

It was a lot of different people that wanted to sign me and put me under them. And I was just like, nah, I'm good. And it was Neo. I mean, it's not like Dallas is like a songwriter, Hall of Famer. And then, you know, you have some of these options. What is it about Neo that pulls you into, you know? Because I was, when I heard Neo, I heard a freshness of songwriting. And at that point, I was knee deep into producing.

Like, I was way more focused on producing than songwriting. And so I wanted a topliner that really, that I can expand with. You know what I'm saying? Like, I didn't, I didn't want to be with another. beatmaker because what were we going to do? At a certain point, we were going to have to compete. And so, and I didn't just want to be with an ordinary songwriter because I could write that. I wanted to be with somebody who really understood the craftsmanship of songwriting. And when I got that call that my music had reached his hands and he wanted to meet me and

his team wanted to meet me. I was ecstatic. It was crazy because literally a week, both, Prior to that call, I was on a highway and his song because of you came on the radio. And that Michael Jackson bridge, I had to pull my car over. Because it was so good. It was so Michael Jackson. I was like, that's what I'm talking about. That's who I need to be writing with. That's what I need. Next week I was in the studio with Neil.

Yeah, that's how does that, what happened in your life? do you think that made that timing? I have no idea. The way my song got to Neo was so crazy. It was actually just a track. And I was telling the story to the artist Maya, because I'm working on her album now. I was telling her this,

because she didn't even remember it. She wouldn't even know how to know this. But anyway, this guy that wasn't even a producer or anything. He was just a guy that, I guess, wanted to be in the music business. this. He was going around town saying he was looking for tracks for Maya. And so the songwriter that I was working with at the time, me, Sean Fuller, he introduced me to this guy. And I was like, cool, I sent him this one track. And I sent him this one track. And he contacted me. And he was just like, y'all, like, all the baloney, because he wanted me to sign to him before he would give

me this opportunity. And it just went back and forth and I never heard from him again. And one day he called me like maybe seven, eight months later. He was like, I want to pick you up because I need you to hear something. And he picked me up and he played me this song and it was Neo's voice on it. And I was like, what the hell? You know what I'm saying? Like what is this?

What is this thing? And he was like, yo, Neo heard this song and he wanted to cut it. But still the whole thing was I had. had to sign to him to get the Neo. And so I was like, nah, I'm cool. I'm good. And so time went on. He was bugging me about it. And I just stopped answering the calls because I was like, I'm not doing that. And this guy that I knew, this other guy that I know named a Skia Fountain, he called me one day. And he was like, Neo team want to meet you. And I was like,

Why? He was like because that song that he cut, that was for his artist. And you're the only one with the session. Oh, wow. Because the dude couldn't produce the, he couldn't produce the stems, the track. Right. So I had that. And so that's how I met Neo. So many people always try to figure out how do they get in the business. And, you know, the short answer is write better songs. Yeah. You know, it's because you can't make that up. And no matter who you know, they could send, you know, Neo gets sent all kinds of things. And in time, like, at that point in his career, like, he must have been just flooded with music.

So for your song to stick out enough that they have to hunt you down to get these tracks. Yeah, man. There's nothing you can do in the business to make that happen other than actually just create the track. Yeah. I tell I hate that question. when people ask me, what can I do? Because it's nothing you can't do, like you said. Like, what can you do but live your life and create music and one day opportunity,

if it's meant to be, will present itself. At that point, you know, by the time songs with Neo come out, before that you had already had, I mean, you had a song with Celine Dion. You had a song Mary J. Blige in 2007. I don't know that there was a song of Neo that came out until after that, at least looking at your discography. No, those were the first songs I wrote with Neo when I met Neo. They're with Neo.

Yeah, I wrote with Neo. So crazy. I mean, once you start getting those kinds of names coming out of the box, what did your mom think knowing that, you know, you were supposed to like, you were brought up to listen to gospel music, and here you come out with, you know, Celine Dion, Mary J. Blige, Neal, you know, Janet Jackson, John Ludge, all like back to back. Yeah.

I think musicians in general get such a bad rap that my mom was not excited about me that being my career. Plus, they never really seen it work. You know what I'm saying? Like when you're coming from the hood and you see all these great musicians and all the churches and all the drummers and all these people that can sing and you say, like out of all of these people, I'm going to be the one that write with Celine Dion.

and Mary Jay, even when it started happening, she couldn't really believe it, or she might have felt like I was over-exaggerating it or a little bit because it was excitement, but it was kind of like one day that's going to go away really fast. You're going to need a real job. When did you think that wasn't the case? Like, when did they realize that this was something that was going to?

When my mom walked to the Grammy's red carpet for the first time, and I introduced her to the real. And I let her do an interview that she's still looking for it to this day. She can't find this interview that she did with some. You know how it's a whole bunch of people doing interviews on the red carpet? It was one person that interviewed her until this day she can't find the footage. But when that happened and she saw the respect, which would, the way people treated me, she knew it was real.

Because before, like, I never invited to her to the studio. nobody really know what a producer is. You know what I'm saying? Like if you're not in the music business, you know, now they do, but back then they didn't know what a producer was. So me saying I produced something was like, I could have said I engineered and she wouldn't know the difference. I could have said I recorded it and she wouldn't know the difference.

So it wasn't like the producer to her. When you said the community you grew up and there were all these people who were so talented, did you start feeling pressure or were people starting to ask you favors to get into business? Or, you know, I would imagine, even, you know, the amount of people who send me messages online

that I know who are, you know, my little cousin wants to be a musician, will you check out their music? Yeah. You know, how soon after, you know, Neo and Mary J. Blige are just royalty and Janet Jackson, obviously, but these people are royalty.

Did you get, was there any sort of community pressure or was it all sort of in, you know, were they really proud of you? Or was there both, you know, or were there people who are trying to get into your musical world? No, the blessing for me is that Chuck Harmony is not my real name. and I'm a super private person. And so most people up until recently until Lewis York still didn't put two and two together about Chuck Harmony and Charles Harmon from East St. Louis that I used to play such and such with. Like that's that's that's that's that's like recent stuff. Yeah, we're the same age. And I think, you know, at that point, there's still not, you know, Facebook is new.

Yeah. You know, there's there's my space probably. just at the tail end of that. But, you know, there's no way that people are keeping in touch with you from high school. There's not really that thing. And it wasn't that long ago. But at that point, if you were living in Atlanta or L.A. or wherever and you're working, you know, there's some small rumors here or there.

But there's not, you know, everybody from your high schools, your friend of social media watching everything you do. Right. Thank God. Yeah, for sure. When you said to recently, what does that mean? Why did people, why are people now figuring out what you did then? I think, I think East St. Louis is a small place. So any, anytime you're from East St. Louis and then you start doing things like out in the open. Like I never, as a producer, I never really had publicism. And I wouldn't, I wasn't in no parties or I was just not that kind of guy. And so when we started Lewis Shork and we had to start giving interviews and we had to start doing things and I start saying who I was and where I was from and where high school I went to. And then it's just, and with social media, it's just now I'm Facebook friends with a lot of people from high school and a lot of people from East St. Louis that I don't know and a lot of people from Alabama that I don't remember and a lot of people from Atlanta.

You know what I'm saying? the amount of songs you have released between basically 2008 through 2015-16 it's just insane amount of music but what's even crazier is how many different kinds of artists you're working with which is different than as a songwriter

where I think sometimes I write songs but I don't even meet the artist who cuts the songs that's different than when you're a producer and you're actually in the studio with all the different artists Right. My assumption looking at these, the amount of songs that you released during this time is that you had no life but you were in the studio. Yeah. Your assumption would be correct. I still don't have no life and I'm always in the studio. I'm in there six to seven days a week every week. Why so much music? Because I want to grow. You know what I'm saying? Like my whole, my whole thing.

with music is that it's exploration. And so I think if you look at my discography, it's like, it's like the reflection of my exploration of music, not necessarily like my hustle and grind to be successful. It's just like if I'm doing gospel right here,

it's because that's how I'm expressing myself or if I'm doing whatever I'm doing. And so that's always if you're always exploring, And it's always new. So how I feel going into the studio today is how I felt when I first went in with Celine Dion. It's literally how I feel. And I could be going in by myself, I can be going in with Claude.

Just me and Claude, I could be going in with Kay Michelle. I could be going in with anybody. Like I always feel like I first felt. I get the jitters. I say my prayers every time. Well, in this next segment, what would Claude Kelly ask Chuck Harmony? and the writer is, he has questions for you. Okay.

He says, number one, put together a dream roster of five artists. That you can write for, produce for. That would undeniably blow people's minds. Who are the five artists? Dream roster. Okay, I'm going to answer the question, but the reason why I started laughing so hard is because that was the game that made us become,

best friends. Like we would just sit for hour, literally for hours like give me five artists you'll sign. Top five producers. Give me the five best songs of it. And we were just like, you got a record label. Who are you signing? And so, that's why that's so funny because that's such a

Claude and Chuck question. I mean, he says, I literally ask him these questions every week. So that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm laughing. Definitely on the same page. Who are the five artists that would blow people's minds? I think if I could get in the studio and do an album

and it's going to sound cliche but I'm going to tell you why with Rihanna I feel like it would blow people's minds because I've done a song with Rihanna which was Russian roulette and I felt like I was only scratching the surface of the musicality that I could give

Rihanna the act because everything she does is cool she could do opera and it would be cool. So as a producer and as a musician, I could take off the cool hat and just be as musical and expansive as I wanted to be. And with her tone and her approach and her originality, I feel like it was set so well on something super musical. Kind of how Janet and Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis said. I like that one. All right. Surprise me. Name some musical influences. The world would be to know you study often. I study

Tracy Chapman often. Really? Yeah. Her first album, I've had it like at every point of my life. I've had it on tape. I've had it on disc. I've had it on iTunes. I got it on Spotify.

I'm just like I'm obsessed with that. And any time that I start feeling like I'm not, I'm forgetting why I do music. I go and listen to her album and it just puts me back in the place of, it's about presenting broad emotion to people. And so that is one of my heavy, heavy, heavy influences. Another one of my heavy influences is John Bryan, the music producer. I love his voice.

I love the way he writes. songs, he's 100% or two, and heavy, heavy influence. And Ray Charles, people wouldn't think that if you look at my discography, you probably wouldn't see any, like Ray Charles sounding songs, but he's one of my biggest influences. Like, it's like, if I'm, no matter, I could be making the beat for Pretty Girl Rock, but what I'm singing in my heart is the most soulful Ray Charles song. You know what I'm saying? Like that's where I get the, that's where the soul comes from that comes from that influence.

I remember when that Tracy Chapman first album came out, we were probably like 12 or something or like 14. Mm-hmm. Somewhere in that world. Just remember that being a thing where it's like she could, we listened to that a lot in our house. And I just remember that being a window into a world that I didn't really know existed. but it was presented in these songs that wasn't just straight up singer-songwriter you know like all the stuff that you get later

that almost sounded like the Indiari even her now that there's so many things that trace back to the her lineage and that album was so honest politically and lyrically and it really was you know for an album like that to mean something across all genres and across all people and cultures,

it's a reminder that you can write about, you can write from an honest place. And that's going to actually help you out than trying to write a hit song. Her songs were a hits because they were so honest, not because they were trying to be something they weren't. Yeah. Every time I hear it, I hear that honesty.

between her and Ray Charles and Bob Marley, I haven't really heard honesty record recorded that well before. Yeah. All right. We still have a couple more cloud questions. Okay. What books, docs, films are you studying before you create? The Four Agreements is one of my favorite books. It changed my life.

I don't know that book. What's that book? It's a I think the author name is author's name is something Miguel Louise. I forget his name, but it's a book, it's a book about wisdom. It's a, from a Toltec tradition. And it just, it covers everything in a general sense. It covers everything that you need to do to just become. a clearer thinker on this on this journey and so um like some of the things it talks about it's like being impeccable with your word and that that that's just across a whole just in life that's a good idea to always be impeccable with your word so it's kind of general things like that but once you apply it to your life then it just makes you a better person i highly recommend it if you can pick one who would you choose james taylor or elton john only somebody that know me would know to ask that question

i would have to pick elton john yeah for the the core progression of goodbye yellow brick road alone like i just i remember how that opened up and i saw how cores can make the heavens opened up you know what part i'm talking about That part, when I heard it for the first time, the heavens literally opened up in my heart. And I was like, this is what music is. I love it. It's also the chord change at the very end of that.

Yes, yes, Lord. That's it right there, man. That is the musical orgasm of life. And I'm a total James Taylor fan to the core, but for that alone, I got to give it to Elton. You know, crazy. People don't realize, you know, you mentioned Rihanna, you mentioned James Taylor and Elton. They didn't all, you know, they all took outside songs at some point. Elton never wrote a lyric.

Right. And I think that a lot of times people look at classic artists. And even though James Taylor wrote a lot of 100% songs, he still was willing to, on occasion, take songs that he didn't write. I think there's something about collaboration in the business that, you know, nobody really wants to talk about. But it's so essential in creating good music is to not have to be the guy who does everything. But as somebody you can write 100% songs,

I still try to push myself to do that sometimes. Do you still write 100% songs? Yeah, I do every now and again. But I also try to keep myself in a room with people that's better than me. So that's why I always gravitated to the Nios and the Claude Kellys. Because, A, I'm not a selfish person. I don't want to write 100% song. because I want to be the person that wrote 100%.

That's just a feeling that I had. This is something I want to express. And so when we're talking about presenting art, then you're talking about getting the best case scenario. And that's when I put my producers hat on because the song has to be the best case scenario. I don't care who write it. You know what I'm saying?

And so a lot of times I want to surround myself in a room with a songwriter that's actually much better than me. A, I can learn from that, but B, I'll just get a better song. Now, we've obviously mentioned Claude Kelly a lot in this already, who has been on this podcast, very successful songwriter. You guys have become such close collaborators across so many different things. You guys are business partners. You guys are, you know, artmates.

You guys do so many things together. Describe, like, how you guys met and what it is you guys are doing, why you're doing it in Nashville. Tell the whole story of what it is you and Claude Kelly are doing. Well, how we met, we met, Def Jam put us together to work on Chrisette Michelle's album, Epiphany. And Clark was one of the first songwriters professionally that I worked with outside of Neo. Because when I got in the business, I was just writing with Neo. So crazy.

He was one of the first. people that I worked with outside of Neo. And so I was kind of, I was a skeptical because you're writing with one of the best. You know what I'm saying? And then I wanted it to be the best because he definitely had credits at that point. And so there was like this super hesitation. We both pretty private people, pretty introverted people. And so what struck me right away was our first conversation.

He was like, what do you think about Chris said? What do you think we should give her? I had this idea. I was listening to the Supremes on the plane. And I had this idea about giving her something like that. I listened to her music and I thought that would be perfect. And I was like, man, it's crazy because I was listening to the Supremes and I did this track last night. Because that's what I thought I should give her.

It was just this because Chris said, first album sounds nothing. nothing like the album that we did. It was just our, that was our vision for it. And so it's a song, I did this track for this song that eventually became fragile on her album. And it sounded like what he was describing. And it was just this perfect union of people that can see an artist. From two different perspectives, he's from New York. I'm from East St. Louis. Two different backgrounds. We're doing two different things on two different paths, but we can see this one artist and feel, have a synergy about what we would give them. And that was the beginning of a super special working relationship, not even the friendship

yet because I'm super closed off. He's super closed off. So we didn't even know we would be good friends. We just knew we could work really, really well together for the longest time. And so anytime I would have the opportunity or his skills. schedule would free up or my schedule would free up. We just try to get in the room and just write because it was actually a joy to create because we could have the conversation if we have anybody, Jesse Jay, anybody in the room, we can be like, what you think she should give

us? What do you think we should give her? And we'd be in synergy with that vision. I would say almost 100% of the time. No, 100% of the time. I never. He never said, yo, like, we should go this way. And I was like, nah, I don't like that. And I've never said, yo, I think we should give her this. And he was like, mm-mm. Usually if I, and it was like, either one could spark it. I could be like, man, I think we should go this way.

He's like, cool. That's what it is. And so with that, what I didn't know is that we listened to a lot of the same music. Like he grew up listening to classical music and I grew up playing classical. and that led to gospel and I led me to gospel. And you know what I'm saying? And then we studied the same kind of greatness. And so we have a similar taste in music.

And from that, we just kept the ball rolling, man. We got Grammy nominated together. At a certain point, even before we officially made it, it was kind of like we were like an R&B kind of duo that you can go to to get this good R&B song. We was that for a little while. And so that last thing, until both of us was just burnt out and was about to quit music.

And that's how Lewis York was formed. That's how weird a workshop was formed. That's the people that you see now as a product of us getting ready to quit. Because if you're a super creative person, anytime you get put in a box, it's no good. I didn't get in this to make money. And I got in this to express myself. And so when I felt like I couldn't do that anymore or couldn't, at a certain point, the music business just become dumb to a creative person.

You know what I'm saying? Like I could have a hit on somebody and then like I did Pretty Girl Rock for Carrie Hilsen. So for the next three months, everybody that's coming through my studio, A&Rs, songwriters, singers, all of them want Pretty Girl Rock. And I'm like, what am I doing? Pretty Girl Rock was just something I did that one time that I did that thing that I do. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't meant to be my sound. It wasn't meant to be how I made lots of money.

It was just this expression. And so after a while, that got to be so annoying to me. And I was fortunate enough. And I'll tell you why I say that. But in the process of me getting ready to quit, I was fortunate enough to work on this rappers. album, this guy from Somali, his name is K-Nan. And K-9 is this well-connected, super-talented guy.

And so I did this project that probably hardly nobody has ever heard because we spent all the money making the record. So it wasn't a lot of money to market the actual record that we made. But it was like, Nas was on the record and Bono was on the record and Will I Am was on the rest. It's all these, it's just like, I was literally getting to make my dream music. Steve Jordan that produces John Mayer.

He played drums on one of my songs. It was that kind of craziness and that kind of level that I got to do this record that nobody heard. But it actually was eye-opening. And that was why I was going to quit because it was eye-opening for me because I knew I wasn't crazy because I know that feeling that I felt and I know that music that I made because of that feeling that I felt. And it was some of the best music I had made up to that point.

So I wasn't crazy when I was asking, like, if my first placement is Celine Dion, please don't put me in the box to say I'm an R&B producer. You know what I'm saying? Just let me do my thing. And so from that point, I confide in and Claude that I was going to quit music. confided in me. He was thinking about doing the same thing. And he was at, to me, Claude was always at the highest level that you can possibly play at. It wasn't like, it's not like he was down there just doing C and D list artists. He was always at the highest

level. And so to hear him say that, I was like, what are you talking about it? I wouldn't expect that in a million years for him to say that. And that conversation, just like the first conversation we had, really sparked a synergy. And I, again, guess it sparked evidence of a synergy that we've been exploring ever since that conversation. And that turned into us becoming a band. Like, neither one of us ever. Cloud never expressed that he wanted to be a singer or be a front man. And I definitely never expressed that I wanted to be an artist in any form.

But that's Lewis York has birthed out out of that frustration of not getting the right people to express your music so you have to do it yourself. is that what success is which part I mean you know you're as a musician I feel like so many people think success is like a chart position

and it's the game of it but do you you seem really relaxed and content with the situation you and Claude are currently in um you know like do you find your

to be, you know, do you feel like you finally, you figured out what success is at this point in your career, you know, because I think a lot of songwriters and producers assume that success is when you're at the, when you're, when you have number one songs out. But I think, you know, professional musicians have a different view on what success is. Yeah. For me, I always try not to allow outside forces to define success for me because if I have, I will always be depressed and I will always feel not good enough. Right. And when I started to play that game, that's when I got depressed. I was about to quit, you know what I'm saying?

Because I didn't feel good enough to do that. I felt bad inside. And so I really had to remind. myself as a creator that the success ends after the creation of the thing is realized. Like what happens with that creation? Who knows? Who knows? It might be some abstract thing that somebody 72 years from now find in some crate on Spotify's clearance

right of stream things that you can stream. And they just fall in love with it. And it sparked them to become the next Beethoven or some shit. Who knows what happens with it? And anytime you try to define success by these little small boxes, you're limiting your possibilities. And so I try my best. And it's hard because everybody got to eat.

And once you taste a little amount of money, you want that to keep going and you want it to keep growing. And so I'm no different in that regard. But when it comes to music, the way that I remain pure about it is that once I've seen that thing through from idea to the best of my ability delivering that thing out, then that's my success. I listen back and say, I'm like, to some degree, I'm like, not like God, but in that same thing, like, it is finished. Like, I can't, I can't worry about if Billboard thinks it's better than code. Black's single. I can't think about it. Right. All right. For this final segment, I'm going to do five for five. I'm going to list five things.

And you just tell me what comes out of the top of your head. There's really no rules to it. Okay. Let's start with Kerry Hilton. First thing that come to my mind when I think Carrie Hilsen, I think, phewf, that's hard. I think, of course, I think Pretty Girl Rock, but I think depression. Oh, interesting. Can you unpack that for a second? Yeah, I mean, I think that was the most depressed I've ever been.

It was in that time because that was just like, that was a weird time for me. I was transitioning from, I wasn't quite in the situation with Neo. And so that was kind of like the last thing of that thing. And it happened after our contract ended. And so I was just in a weird time. where I didn't know if I wanted to move forward. And I just didn't know a lot of things. I wasn't feeling the best about myself.

Fantasia. When I think about if Chuck Harmony is ever to be legendary, the beginning of that bittersweet, the piano that starts that song, you can play that at my funeral. I feel like there lies legendary Chuck Harmony. Because that it's just, it's the most, it's the most me. Just that beginning riff.

And I watched that, I watched me go out into the world and people dig it. And it was crazy. Neo. When I think Neo, I think Genesis. I think the beginning of me as a, as the producer that I'm to become. Cloud Kelly. Genius. Best friend.

Finally, your mom. man, you're going to make me cry with that one because she's currently in surgery right now. And I'm just got my fingers crossed. But that's the best person I've ever met. Well, obviously, I wish her the best. I mean, I know how complicated that can be. Yeah, man. Thank you.

I appreciate it. Thank you for doing this. You know, again, like I even said to Claude, like I remember meeting him too in a similar time in my life. There weren't that many people that you were like, you know, you'd see around. And, you know, I know that these people didn't remember. Yeah. I hate that about the music business. No, no, it's not.

But no, I mean, man, I meet a lot of people. And I don't remember a lot of people. And it's not out of so much of this industry is about attainability. Yeah. So on the contrary, I think it's the opposite of that. I think the fact that it was possible for me to come close to people who were doing such great music when I was just trying to learn how to write for other people and try to understand it and to be that close was just awesome. I don't need anybody else to remember those moments. That's what made me tick.

I mean, that's what made me be, I'm going to put in a little extra effort because I want to be like them someday. You know? So to see, you know, you and Claude, who I respect a lot, to be close with each other and that to still be pushing, doing art, which is a different thing than aiming for hits. And sometimes I'm at the same. But it's a choice, man. Yes, sir. And like, you guys have made musical choices. And that's what makes, that's a difference between an artist and just another person.

in the music business, you know, that you try to explain to people. It's like, no, your expectations as a listener is going to be, you know, to hear a song, whatever that is, a three-minute verse-per-course chorus, or verse-course, whatever it is. It's like a typical arrangement. If you know what the box is, it's, what can you do within that box that's different than what you were expecting to do yourself and what other people have the capability of doing, you know? And so you guys just have this skill set that is, you know, you guys are just so uniquely qualified and you're so uniquely qualified to do art.

So I appreciate that. And thank you for being on this. Yeah, man, this is a pleasure. After I listen to Claude Kelly's podcast, I've been a fan ever since. So it really is truly an honor to be on it. And the writer is. This is success, too. It's a success.

There you go. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist, or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London,

edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.