And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 132: AJR

Episode Date: May 24, 2021

Today’s guest is a New York City-based indie pop band composed of brothers Adam (vocals/bass), Jack (vocals/guitar), and Ryan Met (ukulele/piano/vocals). The band is a DIY pop group who write, produce, and mix their own material in the living room of their Chelsea apartment. Their music style has been described as “eclectic”, combining elements of pop, barbershop, electronic, and dubstep music. They have opened for Demi Lovato, Hoodie Allen and the Wanted. In 2013 the trio released their debut independent single, "I'm Ready." Well-received, the track peaked at number 27 on the Billboard Mainstream Top 40 chart, and appeared on an initial EP as well as the band's 2015 full-length debut album, Living Room. Today, the Multi Platinum indie pop trio have made their first Top 10 entry on the Billboard Hot 100 with their hit single, “Bang!”. It cracked Top 10 at three radio formats—peaking at No. 6 on Pop Radio, No. 2 on Alternative Radio and No. 1 on Adult Pop Radio—and is double platinum certified, marking their sixth platinum song to date. And The Writer Is… Jack and Ryan of AJR!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www.com. Hey, welcome, McKell and Tor from Stargate to And The Writer Is. I had some questions because you guys started this music program called Lamp,

and I wanted to know more about it. How is Lamp different from the other music? programs. Well, Ross, as you know, music has been my passion since I was a kid, and I actually applied to music school but didn't get in. So we knew at LAMP, we had to be very different from traditional education. We will see you and hear you purely based on your talent. Did anyone ever ask you about your GPA in a session? I think not. We actually teach you how music is done in the real world, like you're in the Stargate session. Amazing. If I wanted to be a part of it, how would I apply? Simply go to lampmusic.com.

That's L-A-A-A-M-P-Music.com. We think a lot of the most interesting people in music don't necessarily have high school or college education so we don't require any degrees. All you need to do is send in your music. And that's how we decide who gets into the program. This is a paid program. So what, you know, if I have to pay to be a part of it,

what kind of value would I be getting as a student? You'll leave with an amazing number of songs in your catalog. Because the absolutely most valuable thing in the music business are the actual songs. You'll also have studio time every single day and collaborate with other super talented people in the community. And since we're also bringing in top executives, publishers and managers, it's also a great place to connect and have your music heard by some pretty amazing people.

What would a week look like at this program? So every Monday we have a new mentor coming in and they're talking about their most valuable lessons. Then we go to the studios and start writing on this week's assignment. And then the mentor will go from room to room and actually interact and work and help write these songs and shape these ideas. And we deliver them on Friday. And every Monday we have a listening session, give feedback,

and the whole process repeats. Who are some of the mentors? Some of the mentors we have so far are Justin Tranter, Neo, circuit, Jassy, John Cunningham, Emily Warren, Charlie X-X, and of course, us, Stargate. So here's the real question. Can greatness be taught? Well, most of our students will already be pretty good. So we focus on the difference between good and great. And I think every single mentor that's in this program, they've done great stuff. So they know what that sounds like and feels like. And our mission is to help you take your music to the next level.

How can I find more information on this? You go to our website, which is lampmusic.com with two A's, or our Instagram, which is also lamp music. And that's where you send your music in and apply. For those who don't know what lamp stands for, what is it? Los Angeles Academy for Artists and Music Production. Awesome. Congratulations. And I hope some of our listeners get to be participants.

This is really cool, man. Congrats. Thank you so much, Ross. Thanks, Ross. Speak to you soon. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's guests are a literal band of brothers.

No, they are not the Bee Gees or Oasis or the Jonas Brothers, but they are next. In an era, when bands don't rule charts like they used to, this one is because they've been truly making a bang lately. I bet you had never heard that one before. Anyway, having spent their entire adult lives, well, growing up together, making music together, and now touring together, these gents have evolved into one of the most influential and successful bands in the music industry. Hailing from New York City, we welcome two out of three Metskers, Jack and Ryan, and the writer is our AJR. Hello. Oh.

The writer is R. A.J.R. Perfect. It's a weird thing. We don't, we rarely, the only times we really have multiple people are is if they're in a band. And I feel weird saying and the writer are and the writers are because it's just not the. Not the name. It just ain't the name.

Just not the name. So I don't know. I don't know what to do anymore. Anyway, hi guys. Yeah. What's up, man? Thanks for having us. Yeah, of course.

So I feel like as we. as we do and as Ryan and I discussed two minutes ago that he understands the podcast so he probably knows how this goes I always like starting from the beginning I mean

especially when you guys are brothers you know who introduced you to being musicians are your parents musicians no our dad was the one that introduced

us, but he is an architect. He really just had a love for music. And it was the kind of thing where we would be getting up in the morning and going to school and there would be a different record on, you know, in the record player every single morning. And it wasn't, it was just in the background. So it just sort of started to become a tradition of, okay, now PetSounds is on. Now Meet the Beatles is on. And it just started to get into our blood. And then there would be every once in a while that, that song that just felt like something to us in the morning. Oh, what's that? What's that a little bit? That's really catchy. And then I think we realized like, oh, wow, we have a we have a real love for this. It's not just background music. And we actually, this actually fuels

our lives and our excitement. So that was like the first time we got introduced to music. And then it started, I think Ryan was the one that sort of jumped on getting it to the next level of having an interest. Okay, okay, wait, what is a harmony? That sounds really cool. I like the way that sounds. And then I think Ryan just kind of jumped on the piano and started figuring out himself, right, right? I think I, yeah, it definitely started that way. And then I think it started with an old babysitter we had where she taught us like C, A minor, FG. And something clicked and was like, that sounds good. Oh, that's a good sounding thing. That's not just a cluster of throwing your hands on the piano. Right. And then we used to just do a C chord. Like you were like, hey, Jack,

listen to this song. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, you know. And then the babysitter came in as, you know you could change chords, right? You know, there's more than what. Yeah. And then we just started, I guess, writing top line over it. And then fast forward a little bit, we, got our start street performing. We went out to, what's that? You start, well, first of all, my dad's an architect too. And one of the things that I've, I always think before we go on is

the analogy of an architect to a songwriter is spot on. You know, it's not the person who necessarily builds the home, although it could be. It's not the person who lives in the home, although it could be. Often an architect is the person who's designing the home or I don't know if yours was a commercial or residential or whatever. But, you know, the idea of creating a blueprint and having other people build it is my favorite analogy. And my dad, too, is like a peripheral musician. But the idea of what he does is so

similar. You know, if he was a contractor, I would think of it totally differently. And I don't know if that analogy really represents your childhood, but my guess is that even when you're sitting there playing, you know, block chords, that's the equivalent of when you first draw a house when you're little. And you do like the markers, you just do a box with a triangle on top. You're like, that's the roof. You know, and it's not to somebody says, oh, well, why don't you draw a sun? And you're like, oh, cool, I can change one note.

And, you know, you learn how to do make a block. blueprint over time from what just looks like a sketch of a house. You know what I mean? I love that. Yeah. And I guess to continue the analogy, you're kind of creating the bed of music so other people can have experiences over it, right? Like our dad, like, designed some of the chick filets. And like, he designs it. And then he leaves. And then other people have their own experiences and parallel. We make a song. And then other people make their own TikToks over it and go get their driver's license to it. And it's the soundtrack. you know, it's kind of a similar metaphor there.

I don't want to keep going on this metaphor, but I'm going to. One thing that is another thing with when you, the functionality of an architect is really important. If for all the songwriters who want to go so far out of the box, they may not recognize that that makes it harder for somebody to enjoy their experience in that restaurant or in that house if they don't recognize where the bathroom is. if they don't recognize where the counter is, where the doors are, where the exit is. And all of those things are so important in songwriting and so many songwriters view formulas,

a basic formula as being negative when it may actually make it easier for the listener to walk into the door and know where the bathroom is. I don't know if that makes any sense. I think that's fantastic. Yeah, it's all about, I think Ryan and I talk about this too. not letting the listener think about the wrong things. They shouldn't be thinking about, am I listening to the verse right now? Am I this? Am I this?

The only thing they should be thinking about is, what does this song mean to me? How can I connect it to my life? So you're 100% right. It's our job to let them navigate right to the bathroom without them even thinking about where it is. I think that's a perfect comparison. Ryan, before you, when you were saying,

I know I took us on this segue, but you were saying how you started becoming street performers, but you kind of ghosted over the, you know, we started writing Topline and then we became street performers. But what does that mean when, you know, top line over a piano, what is it, what is that?

I'm trying to think. So the very first song, it was C-A minor FG, and I'm trying to think, it probably started from just like writing poems, right? Like the very first thing we wrote was that song Lost. Do you remember that? Yeah, I am lost, which was like the most basic like tell, don't show.

I am lost. I don't know who I am. I am lost. We just thought like, oh, this kind of fits over piano. And then something kind of clicked. And then it just, with each song, I think we got garage band at a certain point. And with each song was like, oh, what if we try a faster tempo? What if we try switching up chords? What if we try dragging loops in and then messing with those loops?

So it was kind of just a natural trajectory of getting a little bit better with each song. But what is it? What is that, when you said show, you know, that's a typical example of telling and not showing. Isn't that what you just said? Yeah. I understand what that means, but explain what that is. Yeah, I guess it's something that we try to avoid as much as possible. In our current music, we try to paint a picture as much as possible.

And I think this is where we draw a lot of influence from movies, too, where you can just easily say, this is the perfect demo. I am lost. I am broken. Like you could say it in the most blatant way, or you could paint a picture of what it was like in your old house growing up and losing your, you know, your favorite spaceship for the first time. And then the audience gets to think, oh, he's probably broken. He's probably lost. They get to do a little bit more of the work. And I think songs like that probably stick with you a little bit longer because there's nothing more powerful than an image in your mind when you listen to a song as opposed to just reading what could just be lyrics you know what i mean that's uh sound advice i i imagine that even when you try not to do that

that that's a lot of people's first draft you know it's like it's like the third draft that you get where where you remind yourself oh yeah i can go deeper i can go deeper but i imagine that that first draft is uh for everybody is like that is that not true it's 100% true every single time we start a new album it's like we start from scratch it's like we start from scratch I feel like you do the same thing. Songwriters learn these lessons through writing each song, and it's like they have a hit, and it's like, oh, and that's what we had to do in order to have it.

And then they forget it all when they go back to the next song. It's like, you learned nothing. And so we have that at the beginning of every single album. You're right. There was, even on an album we're about to put out that we just finished writing. There were I think, I think there were two songs that we didn't use for it. And those two songs are literally like the most tell to show. This is what I'm doing.

This is how I'm feeling it. no imagery whatsoever. And it's so funny that it's just like everyone is under the impression that songwriters and people that are creative have it mastered, but just no one does. Most people's first drafts are really, really awful and you just have to be okay with that. But then I guess the craft is,

how do I make this better and not just give up and say I'm a terrible songwriter? You know, that's where the struggle is. Do you tell yourself that? Yeah, often I think and Ryan thinks, I even think we say to each other, wow, we've written every single thing that can be written by us. We've used all of our words, you know. Aaron Sarkin has a really funny thing.

I watch an interview with him that he goes through this a lot. And his biggest fear is that he's like watching his dictionary on his shelf. And he's saying, you know, the best play ever is literally in there if I can crack the code of putting the words in the right order. And it's like I think about that all the time. Literally the best song of all time is it's in my house right now, in the dictionary. We just haven't, you know, we just have to crack it, you know? So I think that's something we think about all the time. It's mind-boggling how many times you read somebody's lyrics of a hit song

and you're trying to figure out why that's a hit. And, you know, sometimes there's this brilliant underlying social consciousness and something, you know, but so often it ends up being something where it feels like, how did, you know, the songs that you just get so frustrated about, how did I not write that? Totally. Totally. Okay, so you guys sort of playing on the streets. I assume you weren't also living on the streets.

So you walk downstairs. You're living in New York. You grew up in Chelsea, right? Mm-hmm. So you guys were in Chelsea? On 22nd Street. Like right by the Whole Foods? Like two avenues west.

Yeah, I got it, got it. Why are you familiar? Yeah, man. I love it. I mean, Chelsea's great. and New York's just the best. There are a lot of big songwriters that live within blocks of you guys, but that's another conversation.

You guys go downstairs. I assume you guys just play there because in New York people just walk everywhere. Where were you guys playing on the street? We were in Washington Square Park mainly, all the parks. We did like Union Square and Central Park, but then we found our main spot. We had the most success in front of one of the statues in Washington Square. What does that mean the most success?

It's really funny. Yeah, it's about like you learn the culture of it. And there is this sort of secret culture of which spots at the right time have the most amount of people, which the radius of how many people are walking around. And we found that there's this little circle. If you walk in through the arch and you kind of go to the right, it's the perfect circle that feels like if there is a crowd there, it looks like it's an exciting thing because it's just small enough to fill a lot of people. And there's a perfect stage there for us. I think it's just like a lot of trial and error. And we found that there, okay, we make the most money per hour.

So just keep going there. Are there, were there other people who were like, no, that's my stage. Did you have to fight for those spots? Literally what you're saying is happened. There was a, the lamest situation. It's not like there was another musician and there was like a battle of the bands for who gets the spot. It was a children's puppet, a puppet guy who built, who brought his little cardboard castle. And he was like behind the cardboard, obviously he was a,

a puppet guy. And then when he came out, he was really aggressive and mean. And we were, I was eight years old and he was probably like nearing 60 or 70 and he was yelling in our face, this is my spot. I've been here for years with the puppets. Like on his, like he's he was ready to go. Who won the fight?

No, we did. Yeah, amazing. What is the instrumentation live in a park? Are you guys bringing drums out there? No, right? No. So you need a permit to have amplified sound, and we discovered that quickly because the, like, the police came over to us the first time we tried to play out of an amp. And so a couple times we did it acoustically, just like a ukulean sang, you know, quietly. But then the times that we had to clear a permit, we sang like karaoke and we tap dance. It was a whole like extra. The acoustic times went terribly. Oh my God. No one knew we were street performing. They thought we were just like, because we were so young. And they thought it was just like two kids after school having fun. And like we saw. And like, we. we wrote all these like we came up with all these bits to do and no one no one cared so we said

okay we have to do something to make us hurt it went awful what is what is the history of why why are there so many successful uh jewish uh musicians from new york what is it about that culture that makes new york almost specifically in New York, but what is it about the culture that makes that's such a consistent story of a young go-getter

Jewish musicians that succeed there? What is it? What's in the water? What is it about you looking at my face right now that makes you say Jewish? What makes you think Ryan's Jewish, man? That's a better question. No, I mean, I'm one too.

So it's like, you know, it's, you know, and I mean, look at my last name. Right, right. You know, there's something about it when you go through the whole lineage of musicians that have come out of New York. You know, I didn't grow up in New York, but obviously I'm familiar with it. What is it about that culture that allows for, you know, musicians to pursue being musicians? I think, I mean, the obvious answer is there's the most diversity of any city we've traveled to. You could sit on the subway and, you know, be next to.

a billionaire and a homeless person and you're all just like kind of surrounded by it in any given point. So you get all of those perspectives at any given point. I think New Yorkers are very tough. So we saw this a lot when street performing that if we could win over the businessman that is on his way to work and does not want to be hearing music, then we could win over anybody. So that we were able to start to like hone our skills a little bit and be like, oh, I guess if we sing these kind of songs, if we write these kind of melodies or these kind of beats, it makes people turn their heads. And that's a very valuable skill that I think a lot of artists and writers, it would probably take them five years to learn what we learned in a summer of street performing,

you know? What is it that a businessman and a homeless man can enjoy in a song when you're playing it? When you say that you learned, because no question touring is the best education for a songwriter. I wish that all songwriters did that a little bit. As much as they analyze composition, understanding your audience is a huge thing. And when your audience is that diverse, who do you, you know, what is it, what is the common denominator when you write for those kinds of people? I think back then, when we didn't know anything, I think we quickly realized that it was, I guess, a mixture. I mean, number one, it was obviously stage presence, like, from a visual standpoint of being on the street. How, you know, enticing are you as I was eight years old?

How, like, are you a nervous eight year old, which no one really, that's not cute, you know, or are you really outgoing and, and, you know, outside the box there. And that was, visually, that, that was cool. But I think that we learned, um, on a very, like, small level. I think it was just like a big sweeping note in the chorus, a big belting note was like the first thing that we did. If Jack can get out in the front and be an eight year old going, and like belting that huge note at the end, let anyone is like, oh, that's really cool. That's clean and I can get on that. That's really impressive. So I think that was sort of the first step of a huge belting anthem chorus. And I think that tended to be a lot of the songs that

we either rode or did karaoke to. That's where everyone started to come over it because that objectively is impressive to watch. I love that. I feel like that's really, again, you guys have a lot of good advice already. But one of them is, and so many people are trying to say a lot of things. They have a lot of words. And there's I mean, so it's such a cliche thing, but especially right now with certain songs being more successful than others in certain genres where there are a lot of words, people try to keep things busy. And in reality, those songs that you do choose to sing a karaoke are the ones that have long notes.

And it's the one that everybody can sing along to. So I think that makes a lot of sense. When you guys are going out there, how much of the music is original versus covers? At first it was mainly covers. And then it got to the point where I think we just got confident enough to start bringing out the originals. And then one in every three or four was an original, right? Right.

Yeah. And there was definitely the moment of the first time we played an original, nobody cared. We're like, okay, we got to get better at originals. And that was us kind of honing the craft of writing. And then we kind of started phasing in more and more originals. Never quite got to the point where we like gained a garnered, fan base from street performing, but it more just like got us to be better performers, right? I mean, how often are you going out there? Didn't you have a, didn't you have to go to school?

It was over the summer. So it was in 2005, I think was the first one. So it was every single summer, like for four or five summers straight, maybe more. Every single day from the beginning, you had in the summer, like eight hours a day. And then what moves you from, okay, we're doing this over summer is to like we should actually do this. Like when do you go into a studio? Well, we never have ever been in a studio, actually. We make everything just in our living room. So that's kind of the next part of the story where we did street performing so that we

could buy a ukulele. The very first day that we street performed, we made enough money to buy a ukulele. And then the next day we had a ukulele. And then at a certain point, we gained up, you know, made enough money to buy pro tools and a better laptop and a microphone and an interface and a keyboard. board. So it's just kind of, oh shit. It still see. Oh, there I'm. Oh, okay. Sorry. Yeah. And so we were able to just kind of like buy all the equipment we needed and we brought

it back to our parents living room for a while and now our living room. And that's where we make every single song write and produce it just in our living room. Do you guys live together now? Yeah, I do. That's crazy. You guys do everything together? Do you guys get annoyed with each other? It's one of those relationships that just works. I think we've had that sort of friendship from when I was born, because obviously Ryan is older than I am to now.

It's just you find that person that you just work really well together. And we could absolutely, I think the most important thing is just how insulting we can be towards one another and how little we let it affect each other. We don't even think about it for a sec. I'll, you know, shit all over a song that Ryan wrote or Ryan will make fun of a melody that I got up for an hour. and then it's hilarious and we get past it.

That's what a good partnership is. Yeah, there's, I don't know if you guys watch the BGs documentary. You did. Yeah. You know, it's so fascinating what a blend of voices, when you're genetically blending in a way that you just can't, you can't cast it, you know, it's truly amazing. when you guys are going in and recording your own music in your own living room,

how do you have any perspective on what you're doing? Huh. It's really hard to. I'm trying to think. For a while, so after we street perform for a while, it was like all just experimentation. It's pug time. It's pug time. I'll keep talking as if you're sitting.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's pug time. Is you okay? We're back. Sorry. And we're back. My pug had to walk out at the room. Otherwise, you know, he's an old man. This is what is. It's homeschooling.

Okay, keep going. I did a commercial while you left. We did a sponsorship. Yeah. I hope that's okay. So, yeah, we experimented a ton. It was like, today let's make a, like, an African sounding song. Let's make a folk, Simon and Garfunkel sounding song.

Let's make a super. Broadway song. It was like that to me has been like the most fun part of in our whole career kind of because it was so new to us. And it was like, oh, what if we did three-part harmony? Like that stuff can never be new and novel again. After that, you're always like going back to, oh, the first time I made that song, the first time I made that kind of song. But anyway, so there was a lot of experimentation. And then at a certain point, it was us kind of finding our footing of, oh, okay, here's what we can do that no one else is doing. Here's the, kind of, whether it's beat switchups or whether it's like being like really blatantly honest with

the lyrics or writing songs about like the office or marijuana legalization, like here's where we can shine where nobody else is really touching. And so to be honest, I think we were way less confident back when we were trying to sound like a lot of other people because we were like, oh, we're never going to sound, we're never going to do the chain smokers thing as good as the chain smokers. But as soon as we started figuring out what AJR's thing was, It was like, oh, no, we have no real competition in this, in this little world anymore. So it made us feel a lot more confident. How would you describe that lane?

If somebody else is trying to copy you, which inevitably there are, especially now that you guys have a couple of hits, you know, what do you, how would you put that in words? What are they trying to copy? Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that defines us the most is just the honest. in the lyrics for sure. I think when it, well, there's a couple things. When it, when it comes to production, I think the, the way we land on a beat is if it feels like we haven't heard it recently, you know, if, if I heard, you know, like, sycamode and then we came in and it, it's like, I'm probably not going to want to do that, because I'm probably just going to do sycamode,

you know, if we felt like, oh, cool, we're strumming the guitar and it sounds a little like Mumford and Sonsie. I haven't really heard a song like this in a while. That's what we're probably going to go with. So that's really our only mindset when it comes to production. And then I think people would probably be talking about the lyrics and from the people that have tweeted us saying, hey, I was inspired by you for this song. It's usually how blatant the lyrics are.

It's, uh, so I was fixing my shelf today and I hurt my name, whatever. That's obviously awful, but it's just being very blatant and in the moment. And I think that's what people take from us. How did you meet people in the music industry? I'm familiar

with a lot of your team. And I don't want to know how they found a band that's recording in their living room and playing outside. It's not, that's not necessarily, you know, going and playing at, you know, you're not playing the Wiltern in L.A. or playing, you know, the Bowery ballroom. Definitely not. You know, where, how did, how did you go from writing these songs at home to people actually meeting you? Yeah.

So we had a song called I'm Ready that was like our first, I would say like hit. It went platinum. It wasn't as big as something like weak or bang, but it was like our first moment of success of like, oh, this is AJR sound. And Sia actually discovered it. We were complete nobody's. Like just our high school friends were kind of listening to the song. And Sia discovered it on Twitter.

We as kind of like a last final effort of like, is there anything we could do to make this band successful. We tweeted to like a hundred different celebrities at Justin Bieber. Check out our, I'm ready some. Selina Gomez. And Cia was one of the ones that we did. And she ended up retweeting it. And then we met her for brunch in New York City, which at the time was insane. And yeah, and she ended up introducing us to different people in the industry. So she, who did she first introduce us to, Jack? I think she set us up with meetings with three different labels. I think it was like Universal and Sony. And then we had a meeting with Steve Greenberg, who, runs S-curve Records, which is an independent record label. And Ryan, do you want me to take over the

story from here? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. So, yeah. So what happened was that we met with all those three labels and we met with the first two, the big labels first. We met with Universal and Sony. And they said, this is a great song. This is really cool. Great start. We'll put you in the room with some, you know, writers, and we'll really help you find your sound. We're like, oh, awesome, cool. And then we met with Steve Greenberg, and he put his feet up on the desk, and he said, let's do a deal. I want put this song on the radio and we were like what do you mean like no no like we have to write more songs right he was like no no this is your single this is the hit song i want to put on the radio and uh he's like changed literally nothing about it it just needs to get mastered that's it we're like okay this feels

a little different so we ended up going with steve he believed in us right away and we never really looked back it got on the radio ryan said it did really well and went platinum and that that's when we started developing fans um two things one is why is c is c calling record labels on your behalf. I mean, it's one thing when, you know, people will tweet songs and you're like, that's a really good song. But I'm not necessarily calling heads of labels being like, hey, check out this song I really like. She, it was a middleman.

She wrote to Jonathan Daniel. Yeah, or Daniel, who is the head of Crush management, her management. And she, I think she said, this is a great song and no one knows about it. And then Jonathan Daniel was the one that set up the meetings. Did you end up working with Crush at all? No, we actually didn't work with it. I mean, we worked with him again with Rivers Cuomo, who was on one of our other songs.

But, I mean, we know Jonathan Daniel. He's the best. Of course. Yeah, he's wonderful. Yeah. He's one of, and this is your story, not mine, but there was a moment when I was living in, you know,

600 square foot apartment. And, you know, I'm just trying to get in the business, too. And he spent four hours in my apartment going over songs, wearing a track suit. And I was just like, this guy's a legend. You know, he's spending all this time with me, you know, but he always goes out of his way. So shout out to Jonathan. And another thing is, what is it that Steve Greenberg is somebody in the business who has really interesting projects and was a writer himself.

I just think it's good for people to know who some of these people are. Explain who Steve Greenberg is because he's one of those original indie, label guys in an era where there are a lot of indie labels, granted that now it's through BMG also, but explain who Steve Greenberg is. Yeah. Speaking of Jewish people. Adam to the West. Yeah, he's kind of, honestly, we refer to him this a lot, and even to his face, he's kind

of this crazy genius. Like, he just comes up with really crazy ideas. And throughout his career, he discovered, like, who let the dogs out? he like produced and he did the roo roo on it and like kind of made that entire song um stacy's mom uh obviously a bunch of andy grammar stuff mbop uh by hansson jonas bruce it's like every like kind of left of center like weird hit for the last 20 years he's had something to do it um and that was really exciting to us because i think i'm ready it wasn't obviously nearly as big as something like but it had some of that in it it was just a very weird song and it was a hard sell for labels because

It had three different tempo changes and it sampled SpongeBob and there were like five different hooks. It just, it wasn't like a typical pop song. And we thought that was really cool that he recognized something in it. He recognized, oh, this sounds a little amateur and that's why it's going to work. And since we've met him, he's only gotten more and more of that. And he really inspires in us. Just take risks, like kind of go crazy. Sample like in bang, like have the New York City subway.

guy. I could imagine being with an A&R that's like, no, that's not the best idea. Like, pointing out the negatives in all the crazy ideas that we're coming up with, but he's always just positive, positive. Yes, why not? Why not? That's a crazy idea. I'm Ready comes out

in 2013, and it takes really kind of three years until you have another song that makes a big splash for you. Three years is a long time when you're young and you're just signing with people and you're trying to get songs out. You had a couple singles come out,

but they didn't really do the same. How did you deal with expectations coming off of a song that was so successful on your first try? We thought the same that every artist that has a hit that has their first hit does, which is, I'm set, you know, you have a hit. Everyone's going to show up to the shows. I'm big now. And so we had the hit, I'm ready. And we went out on a tour and no one came. literally no one showed up. And I think we quickly realized that no one really cared about who was singing, I'm ready. They like to listen in their cars passively, but they didn't care about the narrator because in the song, we're not saying anything that anyone would want to hear at a party from a friend. You know, I'm feeling good, feeling right. It's like, this isn't a conversation I'm interested in,

but it was still a cool song to dance to. So I think we realized, okay, like, let's think a little bit harder about what we have to do in order to get fans. And I think we realized really quickly, it was let's start being really honest in our music. Let's start being honest with ourselves. So obviously a lot of time went by and we wrote a lot of songs and a lot of them, Steve was like, okay, yeah, this is really cool. We could release this. Let's see what happens. And then we eventually wrote a song called I'm Not Famous, which was the first time we wrote a song with very blatant lyrics that was really ironic and definitely funny. And Steve heard that and he was like, okay, this is this is the start of something new for you guys because this song,

was written from me saying, I'm not famous all the time when people would come up to me and meet and greets. What's it's like to be famous? And we told Steve then, he was like, right there. That's really honest and personal. That's what you have to go with. So we put that out and then slowly fans started to come in. Our Twitter numbers started to grow because people were like, oh, that's so cool. I'm not famous. What an interesting take. And we're like, wow, we can be honest and personal and still get fans at the same time. So then we started to write song after song with that mindset. Let's just mine our lives. What weird, funny thoughts do we have. Let's put them into music and put them out. Vulnerability is really addicting when you're a songwriter.

Once you get into doing that, it's hard to go back because you realize that nobody's going to be mad at you for being vulnerable. Yeah, but it also is a dangerous, slippery slope. I don't know if you felt this where you can go too far, where you can be like, we've had some lyrics where we're talking about like low album sales or stuff. And sometimes it works, but sometimes we go too far where we're like, this is really vulnerable and personal for us, but are other people going to connect to this on any kind of level? Have you ever gone through that, Russ?

Yeah, well, I think that there, that's what metaphors are good for on some level when it comes to low album sales and whatnot, but it also is it depends the context and where that,

you know, if that line is in the middle of the second verse, I don't know how many people that turns off if there's a broad strokes chorus. We interviewed Jack Antonoff a few years ago, and I love how he was talking about, you know, these choruses for him are always like, I want to get better, better, better, better, but the verses are all things only he would say. And I do think there's something to really simple choruses that allow any listener to, you know, in a way it's the commercial for the song

because you're just selling air for a living. So, you know, the details and whatever is in the disclaimer at the end of the commercial, I don't know if everybody's listening to it. And those who are may have an opinion one way or the other, but they might actually like the vulnerability there. Yeah, I think it's going back to what we were saying about the,

you know, Al-Lo album says, I think the line that you don't want to hit is making the fan into the therapist. You don't want to, you don't, you want to get, get, you know, you want to get to the point right where you're equal, or, okay, I've felt the equivalent of low album sales. I failed in this part of my job. And then as soon as you get hired, then you have fans being, no, I'll comfort you. And then you seem really weak. And it's, then it's like, oh, wait, I'm supposed to listen to music for some sort of inspiration, not for a job.

You know, not to make the artist feel better, feel bad for the artist in that way. So I think that's the line you don't really want to hit. It is a weird thing. Because it's kind of nice to be the, it's weird to be a therapist and a therapist as a singer and not be preachy. And it's weird to want the, you know, in a, some of the things you've said are so spot on when it comes to songwriting.

You know, I love the idea of the showing, not telling is really important. And to explain in a song what you want and why you're singing the song is a big thing. and it's just hard not to pander to an audience, and you have to just play that line. I don't know. That's a really good question.

But I do think being vulnerable becomes this thing where it's really hard to, it's hard to go back. Yeah, because songs just seem, oh, just songs where you're not vulnerable just seem stale after that. They seem like, oh, this could go to any artist. Does this really have to be written today?

Well, isn't that what defines AJR, really? Isn't that what defines any real artists in a lot of ways? Sometimes it's the tone, sometimes it's the musicality, but so often those lyrics are really the thing that, you know, for me, I know that if I go a little bit far left on the lyrics, that's going to define a song that's going to be mine versus somebody else's. Right. There's been so many situations because we do a lot of what you do,

which is, you know, co-writing with other artists for their projects. and there have been so many times where I've sort of dip my toe in getting really personal in those sessions of like, I remember suggesting a line to someone be like comparing their relationship to a parents like divorcing. Well, mom divorced dad and they did this, so let's do this.

And I remember the artist being like, yeah, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. I'm like, oh, okay, no, never mind. You know, just sort of like dipping my toe. I'm like, okay, we're going to go back and say that in our song later. So that was just a funny realization. When did you guys start writing outside of the band? I think What was Andy Grammer the first one,

Rye? Yeah, Andy Grummer was my first co-write ever And I don't know if you know this, Ross, but we are co-writers on a song together. We are? On Good to Be Alive by Andy Grasmer. Ryan has writing credit. You're the other percentage.

I'm the 5% baby. Ross couldn't make his rent this month just because of that 5%. That's thanks a lot, Ryan. Yeah, man. You just took my, you just took my money, man. No, that's so crazy, man. That's awesome. Because of course, now that puts a connection together. That's it. That's kind of an amazing. Is that your first song that you ended up co-writing on?

No, I co-wrote. So, yeah, Andy was my first co-write ever, and I went to go stay with him at his house. I was 18. So I was still, like, really young. And Andy was, yeah, come sleep on my couch, which was super cool. And Andy's super cool. And it was very nerve-wracking the first time ever co-writing, because I wasn't sure exactly what Jack said. I wasn't sure how much to dip my toe out and be like, do you want to try this? And the first song I ever wrote with him was Back Home, which was the single before, Honey, I'm Good,

that it's funny, we all were like, this is going to be such a monster head, and then it didn't do that well. So you never really know. But I remember saying it to Andy, like, what about like a la da, da, da, da, da. You know, like a fokey kind of Philip Phillips thing. And Andy's first inkling was like,

no, that's not me. Like, I'm not really the fokey guy. And I was like, do you want to just try? like do you want to just try writing it and see what happens and we ended up doing it i know know andy loves the song and he like often ends his show with it so whatever how well ever well it did on radio and it got licensed a lot i mean that's the the plus andy always you know his uh you know good to be alive is is as valuable it's more valuable than any of the country songs that i've had that have been hits you know what i mean it's as value oh yeah and it's as valuable and it's as

valuable as, you know, as, you know, I don't want to start calling out other songs, but it's, it's definitely one of my most valuable songs. It just gets synced all the time. So, you know, Andy's amazing like that. Um, that's so crazy. So why, but you guys don't really have a ton of co-writers for yourselves, right? You have none. The, the only person I think they've been credited as a co-writer is Rivers Cuomo, because he wrote his bridge on us, our song, Sober Up. why we for a few reasons i think ryan you could definitely jump in um i really think that well number one i think ryan and i have developed a really really good process we it's it's it's very easy we know we're going to come out with something that we like um i really think that another part

of us is that or at least me is i'm really nervous to write with someone because i really am afraid to shoot down their ideas if then obviously that happens and everyone is sure people have shot down a lot of my ideas i feel like if i got in the session with for for for my, for our project and someone was like, no, you should sing this. I would probably give in a little bit even if I'm not interested just because I'm just that kind of person. I would be a little bit more concerned with if the writer likes me than making a good song. That's me personally. So that's just one of many reasons. But Ryan, do you have any? Yeah, there's that element. And then there's also the element like, we want to write the most AJR songs possible. And I feel like as soon as

a writer comes in and goes, this is what AJR would say. I feel like they're just going to be like drawing from what came before. It's kind of like when a TV show when like a new showrunner comes on is like, this is what made the show so popular to start with. Let's just keep recycling that. These are probably also all irrational fears and probably what happened if we found the right writers. But like it's just, I don't know, we haven't felt like we needed it yet. Yeah, that's so interesting because no question.

And my instinct is to say that, yeah, these are irrational fears and perhaps it's not the right songwriters. You know, because, you know, it depends who the co-writer is, of course. And, you know, it becomes having the person be like, well, why don't you try doing this song that sort of sounds like in this Philip Phillips sort of world and being like, why don't we just try it for the day? And even though it's uncomfortable for you to go down that road

or it's the person who's, you know, that becomes you, in the other room. But when you guys have been in other rooms, have you been offended when somebody said, I don't like that idea? Not once, right? And that's a perfect double standard technique that you just used right there. That's a very common technique in therapy, which is like, would you feel this way? Have you? No. And the answer is absolutely not. I've never been offended once and we've gotten shot down a million times. That's where the word irrational really applies. Yeah, no doubt. Well, on your ninth album, when you're looking for co-writers, let me know. and we'll spend a day.

And I'll make sure that you never write with a co-writer again after that because you'd be like, this was the worst experience I've ever had. Okay, so you, you know, you end up getting it, you know, you start working with other people at this point. You've now written as, you know, you've written a song for Andy Grammar that becomes a hit and you're writing for other people. You end up on, you're featured on the Ingrid Michelson song. you have another single come out

it's still kind of not quite what it where I think you guys were hoping Burn the House down kind of changes all of it I think sober up changed it before burn the house down Oh sober up is first

Because Yeah yeah Sober Up is first Okay I had it backwards Why is like sober up comes out What is it that Besides having rivers a river on it, you know?

What was it? So I'm ready. I'm ready one to pop radio and that was like our, at least Steve Greenberg's like inkling of like, oh, you guys are a pop band. Like, let's go in that lane. And then Weke took off on Spotify and that would back out like 300 million streams on Spotify. So those were like both totally at the time at least very splintered audiences of there were little girls listening to the radio and they were like cool college kids listening to

Spotify back in like 2014, 15. And so we were like, I'm not really sure what our lane is. Like, do we go to pop radio again with another song? And the thing that really got us out of that lull was sober up where we, Rivers Comer from Weezer followed us on Twitter, another like Twitter story. And we wrote him saying, oh, my God, we're enormous fans. Like, we grew up listening to you. And he wrote back saying that he loved Weak. And we were working on Sober Up at the time, and it didn't have a bridge.

and we thought, oh my God, imagine if River Scromo from Weezer would feature on this bridge. We like broached the subject and we wrote him on DMs and didn't he, he immediately shot it down, right? He immediately shot it down. He was like, I'm happy to, you know, help you write the bridge and be credit on the song. But I think it would be weird if I was singing it. I shouldn't sing it. And obviously we can tell the story now that it's over, but we sort of, we didn't really want to take no for an answer. So what we did, he wrote that great bridge. He wrote, my favorite color is you. We were like, hey, okay, yeah, maybe I'll sing it. Could you, like, record you singing it just so I know how to do it?

So he recorded his voice onto it. He was like, oh, yeah, sure. And we dropped it in. And we were like, hey, Rivers, we just, I mean, we happened to drop it in. You should see how it sounds. So we send it to him. And he was like, hey, I sent this to Jonathan Daniel. He thinks I should sing on it.

I think it sounds really good. And it was like, yes, we did it correctly. It was that great moment where we, it was just me and Ryan's a little bit manipulating the situation. He's so brilliant. and he's so, I don't know if he's underrated because people who love Weezer and love Rivers get it, but when you work with him, you recognize how cerebral and how smart this guy is.

And he is a next level intellect. Absolutely. And his knack for the most, he's a perfect example of, God, like, why didn't I think of that lyric? And his melodic sensibility is absolutely insane. Just just watching him and listen. to him work is such a pleasure. So he's been one of the best people we've met.

Burn the house down. You follow it up then with that. So now you've got to say. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to finish the story, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we got Sober, we got Rivers on Sober Up. And we at some point thought that we were like a cooler band than we were at the time. So we said to Steve Greenberg, we were like, could we go to alternative radio?

And Steve's like, no, that never happens. Like bands that go to pop are. shunned from alternative. And so we got Rivers Cuomo and we were like, Steve, now can we go to alternative radio? And we tried it in one station in Denver, Nerf, right? Nerf in Denver, played Sober Up and it shazams immediately number one. And so then we were like, oh, I guess like the alternative radio audience does care about us. And that was a big breakout moment for us because we suddenly started getting the alternative audience, which we realized probably aligns with our music a little bit better because they

buy more albums, right? They care more about albums. They come to shows more. I think they buy into the whole experience of the band a little bit more than the sometimes fleeting pop audience. And so then with Sober Up and then followed it with Burn the House Down in a 100 bad days, we were able to just kind of like cement the alternative radio audience to know like, okay, when we put out a song,

we know it will be played on alternative radio. Some people will at least hear it, whether or not it gets to cross over to pop or not. It's also, it was also the ultimate, like, everything happens for a reason moment. Because when I'm ready died at radio, it died at like, oh, geez, that was like snowfalling. It died at like 26 at radio. We were just devastated. We were like, that was our shot.

We blew it. Let's go back to school. Let's do it. And in that moment, when sober up blew up and from the house, and we were like, thank God, if I'm ready had gotten to number one on radio, this never would have happened because we were still an unknown artist. Most of those program directors at Alternative had no idea that. that we had been to pop in the past.

They're like, oh, here's a new alternative artist. So we were like, oh, that happened for a reason. So this could happen and we could, you know, blow up so much quicker. So crazy. You just can't write those things, though. And, you know, a lot of people in the business assume other people are going to do it for them. You know, they'll finally get the record deal and they assume that the A&R guy will do something or the publisher will do something.

and the Cia and Rivers thing really shows the kind of entrepreneurs you can be in the business not just necessarily entrepreneurs don't necessarily mean that you have to sell merch or do something like that but just going and finding situations

and making situations and again it's when opportunities come to walk through those doors you know I like that when you see somebody liking your you know, your music that you, you contact them and you keep that relationship. Yeah, I think that's like the biggest advice that we give to, you know, new artists, which is like learn as many jobs as you can.

Don't think exactly what you said, don't think you're going to be an artist and then you're going to sign to Warner Brothers and all your problems will be taken care of. Like, if you learn how to put your own, whatever, music on tune core and upload it yourself, and if you learn somewhat how to mix and master yourself, then when you finally find a better mixer, you'll understand, oh, that's someone I need, not just he is a big mixer, so I probably need him. You'll really understand how to do each job

and understand who's actually really good at their jobs and who to hire. Yeah, I mean, but that's hard to do it yourself. You know, where did you, you know, where did you guys get that kind of drive? Jews in New York City, man. That's what we were talking about it. We're scrappy. I think it was just the, when you went, this is a very cliche answer. I say it all the time, but it's cliche because it's true. It's just, we just liked it a lot. We were really dreamed of being huge musicians. We couldn't wait to go perform our songs for thousands of people. We had zero connections. What do you do? You know, okay, you have to roll up your sleeves and do it yourself. If we didn't like it as much, we would have probably given up. The first time I heard you guys, this is a, it's, side anecdote again, but was burn the house down. And my friends were actually very successful people in the industry, contacted me with it. And they said, is this you? You sound like these guys.

Like, you sonically sound like them. So I kind of like that there's like, that was the first time I heard of you guys. It was like, wow, man, this band kind of sounds like a band that I would be. So I love that. They thought you were singing? I think so. They thought you were singing or that you wrote it? I'll tell you who the people are later. But I don't know.

I mean, like they did a little bit of both. I think it's just that nasal Jewish tone that cuts, you know, as my wife says, can cut through like glass. But in reality, it's like you can hear it. And it's like it's what Adam Levine has. It's like there's this, there's something about that nasal tone that, you know, Carol King has. has that Neil Sadaka has, just go down the list, and it's something that's just, it's genetic.

After, you know, you guys end up on some more things, you end up on the Cveoki record, you have some other things, and then you come out with some more singles in 2019, and the LP actually ends up doing really well on the rock album charts, but again, the singles start to do something where, you know, you have this wave that keeps coming. it that makes a hit what's a hit song oh god it's so funny we always watch interviews where people ask that question uh to the artist and the artist has the answer it's this we got it this is it this is it and just so often ryan and i we try to write hit singles and a lot of people are saying you know you can't try to write a head you can't try to write ahead and i i feel like that's definitely

true for them but we literally sit down and say let's write our single today let's write our single And it's this weird balance of like, no, but it can't sound like anything on the radio. And then we say, you know, let's make something huge and bombastic with a sweeping chorus. And then let's add all the other AJR stuff in and send it to Steve. And hopefully he thinks it's a single. And we fail over and over again. And then finally it just hits like with bang. We had tried to write singles.

None of them. Steve didn't like any of them. And then we wrote this Ryan laid down these crazy horns. And then I came up with, let's go out with a bang, bang, bang, dang. We sent it to Steve, and he was like, that is a hit chorus right there. You have it. So I wish, I don't know if Ryan, you have an answer, but I wish I could give you technical terms of how we did that.

But I just don't know. Like what goes into our head, Ryan, when we sit down to try to write a hit. Yeah, two things. First, I think Steve Greenberg is like, speaking of like knowing when you need someone else and when you can't do that job, me and Jack can't really call hits that we, or singles that we wrote. We think everything we write is, you know, oh, today we wrote such a hit. And then we really need Steve to say yes or no, like this is a hit or it's not a hit.

And he's been right, I would say 95% of the time, which is a really good track record for an ANR. But to bring back the architecture metaphor, I think probably singles as opposed to album cuts, singles are a little bit have a little bit more of you walk into a restaurant and you know, oh, of course, the kitchen's going to be there and the bathroom's going to be there. But like on the way, there's like a weird little chandelier or a weird lighting fixture that you haven't seen before. whereas our album cups are more, or we try to at least more, like, you walk in, there's this weird hallway, I don't know where I'm going. Like, there's less of a formulaic bed there, and the singles are a little bit more like, okay, we all have an understanding. This is what a pop song sounds like.

But now I'm going to just do a little bit of this. I'm going to do 15 to 20% of a left turn and hope that that really makes a chazam and makes people turn their heads. That's smart. bang takes him a minute it's not like it just becomes I mean to be where it's at now it's it's it's having this crazy long life yeah what keeps a song going

um I mean to preface this there was a part there was a moment in the beginning of bang when Steve you know he had called us the hit we put it out and I said to myself like after a month and a half like oh great like sick we failed with this one And then right after I said that, it started to pick up. And I really, I think for a couple reasons, I really think the year that we had had a lot to do with it

because it really sounded apocalyptic. And I think people heard it on the radio, and they turn it up and they were like, this is kind of how the world feels right now. Same with if the world was ending, the Julia Michael's song. It was exactly how they were feeling in that moment. And they were feeling a little darker

and a little more angry than usual. And then hearing a song like that on the radio kind of lets them know that it's okay to feel like that. So I think that's one of the reasons that people started gravitating towards it. I imagine that that's one of those songs that once people are back in stadiums, it's going to be, it'll have another resurgence, you know? So just be wary of that. That's going to be fun.

You guys have an upcoming album. Okay, Orchestra. Tell me a little bit about it. Yeah. So we've really kind of delved into this theatrical, world with our music, with The Click, which was one of our albums, Neo Theater, which was our last album and now,

OK Orchestra, just kind of pushing, we love Broadway music, and we grew up kind of listening to it, and it's like another one of our passions. There it is. Yeah, we should talk about that. We'll get into that. But I think that there's, I think that Bang is truly a Broadway, the villain walks in song

that we disguise to be a pop song. And that was one of the biggest challenges with Bang, where it was like, we know that this is cool, but how do we make college kids think it's cool and not just like theater geeks think it's cool? And so I think we lean into that a lot with OK orchestra. I think it's very theatrical sounding. It starts with an overture, like kind of an electronic modern version of an overture. And it's definitely like the most extreme sounds we've ever been able to, I don't know, get. It's like the happiest songs, like the most jovial quick songs. and it's the saddest, angriest songs.

I think we're really like widening what we feel comfortable talking about. Why haven't we talked about Adam at all? I thought you were going to bring him out, man. Like, we have this third guy in your band who's also related to you guys. Tell me about him. How do you describe Adam?

How do you describe such a beautiful, you know, painting? You know, it's impossible. No, Adam is. I mean, he would normally be one of your, like, I would, usually we do this, you know, five for five segment where I'll name five people. I guess we can actually jump to that. We'll go back to, we'll go back to Broadway later. But here's your five for five section.

Let's start with Adam. You guys are a trio and you two write all the songs. Does he get envious? Who's Adam? Who is Adam? This will be able, you can take your time with this one. No, no, no, it's not a, it's definitely not a thinker. The reason that we've gone so far as a band,

we've been doing this for 16 years, is technically because of Adam, because he is in the band. Adam doesn't actually sit down and write the songs. He obviously, we obviously send the songs to him to give notes, but Adam has been so on top of the business side for literally the first moment that we started this band. You could ask Adam, anything about a music contract,

he knows the answer, anything about radio, where it is in the charts, certain markets, where in touring, will we get this percentage more fans than this percentage. She is just such, honestly, like a genius when it comes to that. So we realize that very quickly we had this like mini company, you know, within the band. And so multiple gears were turning at the same time. I think that's what has kept us moving for so long and what will make it so that we never really break up until we're ready to say, oh, we're just not into music anymore. You know, because we literally have everything going for us. So the band would literally not operate

without Adam and how much he's just been right again and again and again when there have been so many antagonist is the wrong word but but people who have said no this is not right and when Adam says yes and he is he is right so so he has been such a major major person in this in this group bands notoriously at

at some point you know being in a band sucks and they all have issues everybody wants to go and be solo everybody wants to be back together everybody wants time away from each other but they also want to tour how, I know that we're in the middle of the five for five,

but as we're talking about your brother, I guess what is it that keeps you guys together that other bands have struggled with? Well, I would quit music and go work at Burger King before I become a solo artist. That's the most terrifying thing that I can think of and I know Ryan agrees with me. That's number one, so that's never going to happen.

But Ryan, you could go for it. Yeah, in terms of breaking up, I think it's the biggest thing that what Jack said, We all kind of know exactly what we're good at. I don't know. I think we, none of us really have a goal to be like the number one band in the universe. That's not really where we're setting our sights to be the, you know, Justin Bieber. I think we are, our biggest goal is to be like vampire weekend or, you know, to be able to play arenas.

And I think we're like, as soon as COVID is over, where we'll be able to like announce an arena tour. But then to be able to take a few years off and not feel like we're in pretty, in constant giving content to people. But like to be able to take five years off and go pursue other things and write scripts and write Broadway shows. And Adam is really, he's like working with the UN on his, he's like getting his PhD also at the same time. To be able to do that and then come back and know, oh, wow, our fans stuck around.

Like, they do care. They're with us. All right. So number two on your five for five, we're going to go with your parents. Yeah, our parents have been just so ridiculously supportive to the point where it's like ridiculous. I know I said that, but obviously we started writing music in their living room and they really went over and above. They threw out their couch so we can make room for the drum set. That's like a perfect picture of how supportive they were.

They really just wanted the best for us. Our dad specifically is the biggest music fan in the world and he's our biggest fan. So just having him come to shows and watch us in Red Rocks, which is his dream venue to go to and throw his hands up when the show is done. That's been maybe 50% of what has continued us going, just making him and our parents proud. Let's go with New York City. The incubator for us and our career.

All right. The last two, Jack, yours is going to be Ryan. Probably the greatest emotional intuition of anyone that I've ever met. Ryan, Jack. So decisive about what he knows is cool and what melody he knows is cool that I feel like I can lean on him completely. If he's like, I promise people will think this is cool, I know I can trust him completely. That's really cool. What's advice you'd give to an up-and-coming band in an era where there aren't a lot of

bands. The thing that has been most important for us is just finding that one thing that makes you different. And that's just like proves time and time again. So if you're a band and you have music, you should really sit down and say, what's one thing that people can leach onto? Because it's not our fault, but we and everyone get distracted very easily. And everyone starts to look like the same thing. So if you see an artist and they say, oh, but that's their thing. I can, that, that'll help you like leach on to them and realize, oh, they have more to. offer. So if you're a band, definitely try to find that one thing that makes you unique and stand out from the rest of the people in the lineup. We'll get into Broadway when you guys

come back on here, because at some point you guys are inevitably going to have to, especially if you're going on arena tours and stuff like that. But I guess what's the short Cliffs notes as to why you're pursuing potentially Broadway? Yeah, we grew up being obsessed with it and listening to, you know, Le Miz and Wicked and Hairspray and all of those. And it's always just been kind of a side dream of ours. And then over the summer, this guy, Vivek, I know you're like immersed in this world. I don't know if you've known, but Vivek Tuari, who's this like big Broadway producer, he did like Jaggy Little Pill in Americanity.

He, oh, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I met him last, yeah, last year. Oh, he's super nice, right? Yeah. He reached out to us and he, I think his kids were really big fans and he was a big fan. said if you ever have an idea and we're like, oh my God, this is like our dream. And so since then,

we've been developing a show with him. And right now it's like, we're early in the process where like the IP is getting cleared. So we can't talk about it too much. But we're like about to embark on something that we're so excited to do. Yeah, it is a very different world. And it's really exciting. We'll talk about that after this because I could talk about it for hours. It's so inspired. It's so inspiring and so different. And for all of you songwriters that are sick of writing a song about just, you know, another song about love, you know, as I always say, like you could write a song from, you know, the butcher talking about how the butcher wishes he was a taxi driver still.

And that could be like the whole basis of a song. You know, you can go into some weird things. And you're not, you don't always get to write songs from the perspective of somebody from one generation to a song. another or somebody from in one culture to another, we're pretty pigeonholed in the pop community where we can write songs. But in theater, you can do kind of anything you want. Right. Well, I just quickly, to that point, I think that this is a really good point, which is the main insecurity that Ryan have when we sit down to write is, is what we're writing cool. And by cool, I don't mean like necessarily the cool kids in school like it will someone,

because you only want to listen to cool music. You know, you listen and it makes me feel cool and I feel cool listening to this. And literally every line we say, oh, is this cool? Is it not? And with Broadway, you just can completely relinquish that feeling. And it's so freeing. Like, you can make a really corny melody and people can sit there and really enjoy it. Corny or the better. You know, look at defying gravity, like from Wicked. And so that's such a freeing, you know, thing. I think that's what we love about Broadway. We'll even just sit at the piano and make up Broadway songs just for fun as a break. Yeah. It's also important that people, you know, I don't think people realize what it's like to be in a room of 200 to 2,000 people who are not on their phones for two hours.

Totally. You know, it's like everyone, you're shunned if you have your phone out in a theater. And when you're playing music in a meeting and, you know, for A&R people or for radio people, they all have their phones out. And you've spent all this time working on these lyrics that mean something. And they're all on their phones. and you're trying to get them to focus and realize what they're listening to, but the only place they really do that still is in theater.

Unless people sit there with vinyl where they have a glass of wine or something where they're not on their phone looking for the next song to play, it is a place that is sacred still for music lovers. And I just hope that there's still more original music because this year the Tonys have three shows up for best music and all three of them are catalog, you know, catalog jukebox musicals. So I'm hoping that next year and the year after,

as hopefully we're able to play in that sandbox and some of these others that feeder will grow to being what we did grow up with, which is original music and original book. Right. I'm curious, did you write the entire book kind of as you were writing the songs? Or did you have a writer come in and then say, like, hey, you need a song? here, here and here. No, I wrote a short story and then started writing and then as I played, mine was different

because I didn't know what I was doing at first. So now when I go into things, it's a little more structured. But at that time for the wrong man in particular, it was, oh, that's interesting. This part of the story feels like it's missing something. I could dive into that. And once we got into actually other people playing the character and the other parts in it, so it wasn't a one person story but it was made into a cast of nine people that's when it started becoming oh interesting i got a this you know this can't be a it can't be the telling it's got to be

a little bit of showing like this person has their own depth and you you go and you they have their own story arc and it's it becomes a little bit different wow wow why i just have one more question Yeah, please. Just one more. So why? Yeah, I like that this interview just switch to the... I think that's what Ryan was hoping, honestly. Yeah, awesome.

We were, we've been thinking a lot about why Broadway is, that type of music, that kind of theatrical storytelling music is so separated from the people that listen to pop music. And there's a very little Venn diagram of overlap. What do you think it is about it? Like, what do you think, like, someone who listens to Drake, like what is it about

theatrical, more Broadway music that they are not attracted to? Well, I do think it's growing more and more. I mean, I do think there are a lot of fans of Drake who listen to, you know, who listen to Hamilton. You know, obviously there are a lot of pop musicians who I think listen to Deervin Hanson

and listen to Waitress. You know, I think that there's a, there's a, little bit, you know, Vivek, having someone like that in your corner in the theater community is different because they're opening the doors for you so you have a co-sign. And for me, you know, Kurt Deutsch and obviously like my whole crew of Tommy Kale and Alex Lackamore and, you know, they, Joshua Henry, the lead in the show, they really helped open door and legitimize what I was doing for a community that it's like walking to Nashville.

I'm thinking you can write a country song or a Nashville writer coming to L.A. to write a pop song. And you realize you have to write all year for many years until you're really trusted. You know, you might be able to scratch off a lottery ticket, but consistency takes relationships in any genre. But to answer your question,

why some people like it and some people don't, some of it is, yeah, it's just access. education in it. And, you know, I've always wondered why they, you know, Hamilton didn't have any songs that went to radio. Yeah. Like, that's really the thing. And, you know, Bobby and Kristen Lopez, I don't know if you listen to that interview.

Yeah. But, you know, they, they, the Disney world, the Disney universe has this ability of writing hit songs for movies that become hit songs for shows also. But again, that's borderline jukebox musicals. I think it's, it is a, it'll be interesting to see if there's a new generation of composers that can crack that code. And there was a point when Hare had three or four hits at radio as a musical. You know, there was a, you know, Tommy had hits. And I granted, that was also an adaptation. But yeah, I don't know. I think it depends who the songwriters are, depends who the composers are. Right. Because I feel like it has to be possible because like, like I said,

bang basically sounds like it should be in a Broadway show. If bang can be on the radio, why I couldn't bang something like bang be in a Broadway show and then be the hit of the Broadway show. I feel like those worlds are colliding a little bit more. It's no longer one day more from Les Mis, which is so splintered from pop music. No, you would have to be the, you have to be the driver of it. That's what I'm trying to do with whatever I work on too, is that I would be the driver of making sure that the music is actually music that you'd want to listen to and not just, you know, and it's not, the hard part is like you can't, you're not doing it, you're not writing a concert. So the songs really have to, they have to move the story on. So studying that story,

And when you talk about Aaron Sorkin and you get into that, like that that has a lot of value, understanding intention, obstacle, and tactics and understanding all these things that are Aristotle poetics and how you actually go through drama and make sure that there's a purpose and why they're singing the song and not just because it's a hit song.

And those are hard skills to combine. But I do try to use a lot of what I've learned in theater in the pop world. Oh, really? Has it influenced that? try to make sure that, yeah, because why does that artist want to cut this song? Like, they also have to go on stage and sing the song. So for me to write a song that's an outside song or whether I'm writing, you know,

if I'm writing with an artist, my objective is not dissimilar than it is if I'm writing for a lead of a show. You know, I think sonically it becomes something different and you might want to try to flex some musical muscles that you wouldn't, you know. Wow. Interesting. Also remember the expectations of your audience are going to be, are going to be different because who's buying tickets to see your show? Yeah. Older, rich people.

Yeah. Well, yeah, you're bridging a gap. You're bridging a gap where you're going to write your music, but it still has to be something that is translatable to theater goers. right yeah interesting and are you working on a new because i know the wrong man was doing so well but then covid happened are you working on a new uh musical well we've been you know we're still working on on the wrong man and and and you know dabbling dabbling he's dabbling um more on that soon um but uh you know we should we we need to hang out

yeah seriously we got to talk i know you know it's uh i appreciate you guys doing this it feels like I've known you guys for a lot longer than an hour and 15 minutes. And Ryan, I mean, how cool is it? I didn't realize before this, I didn't put it together. But that's amazing that you and I have a song together

that isn't just a song, but it's like a special song. That's so funny. I wonder, were you at the BMI Awards the year that Good to Be Alive won a BMI Award or no? Yeah, I won songwriter the year that year. Oh, so we must have gone up on stage together

to accept that award. Totally. I'm sure we can look up the picture and we absolutely should, but I love that. That's so funny. Yeah. That's so funny. Yeah. We also, we forgot to mention it, but we also wrote for Megan Trainor, I know you just had her on and you have a connection to her too. Oh, yeah. We wrote two of her Christmas songs for her new Christmas album. Jews write the best Christmas songs. We'll get into Irving, Berlin, in the history of Christmas songs by Jews on our next one. but you'll keep me posted and let's keep in touch.

Amazing. Thanks so much for having us, Ben. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg's mom, and published by Big Deal Music.

A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.