And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 133: Daniel Nigro

Episode Date: May 31, 2021

Today’s guest is a songwriter, producer and musician from Long Island, NY. After playing in his own pop-rock band, ‘As Tall As Lions’ as lead vocalist and guitarist, he relocated to Los Angeles to work as a songwriter and producer. In the years since, he's worked with artists as disparate as Olivia Rodrigo, Sky Ferreira, Carly Rae Jepsen, Caroline Polachek, Empress Of, FINNEAS, Conan Gray and many more. Most notably, he co-wrote and produced the entirety of Olivia Rodrigo's debut album Sour, which broke the record for the biggest album debut week by a female artist. This record includes the record-smashing single "good 4 u", which holds the Spotify record for most streams of a song in a single week (passing her other record-smashing lead single "drivers license"). Our guest also enjoys a similar long term creative relationship with the singer-songwriter Conan Gray. And The Writer Is… Daniel Nigro!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www.com. And The Writer is.com. Hey, welcome, McKell and Tor from Stargate to And The Writer Is.

I had some questions because you guys started this music program called Lamp, and I wanted to know more about it. How is Lamp different from the other music? programs. Well, Ross, as you know, music has been my passion since I was a kid, and I actually applied to music school but didn't get in. So we knew at LAMP, we had to be very different from traditional education. We will see you and hear you purely based on your talent. Did anyone ever ask you about your GPA in a session? I think not. We actually teach you how music is done in the real world, like you're in the Stargate session. Amazing. If I wanted to be a part of it, how would I apply?

Simply go to lampmusic.com. That's L-A-A-A-M-P-Music.com. We think a lot of the most interesting people in music don't necessarily have high school or college education so we don't require any degrees. All you need to do is send in your music. And that's how we decide who gets into the program. This is a paid program.

So what, you know, if I have to pay to be a part of it, what kind of value would I be getting as a student? You'll leave with an amazing number of songs in your catalog because the absolutely most valuable thing in the music business are the actual songs. You'll also have studio time every single day and collaborate with other super talented people in the community. And since we're also bringing in top executives, publishers and managers,

it's also a great place to connect and have your music heard by some pretty amazing people. What would a week look like at this program? So every Monday we have a new mentor coming in and they're talking about their most valuable lessons. Then we go to the studios and start writing on this week's assignment. And then the mentor will go from room to room and actually interact and work and help write these songs and shape these ideas. And we deliver them on Friday.

And every Monday we have a listening session, give feedback, and the whole process repeats. Who are some of the mentors? Some of the mentors we have so far are Justin Tranter, Neo, circuit, Jassy, John Cunningham, Emily Warren, Charlie X-X, and of course, us, Stargate. So here's the real question. Can greatness be taught? Well, most of our students will already be pretty good. So we focus on the difference between good and great. And I think every single mentor that's in this program, they've done great stuff.

So they know what that sounds like and feels like. And our mission is to help you take your music to the next level. How can I find more information on this? You go to our website, which is lampmusic.com with two A's, or our Instagram, which is also lamp music. And that's where you send your music in and apply. For those who don't know what lamp stands for, what is it? Los Angeles Academy for Artists and Music Production. Awesome. Congratulations.

And I hope some of our listeners get to be participants. This is really cool, man. Congrats. Thank you so much, Ross. Thanks, Ross. Good season. Welcome to End the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan.

Today's guest quickly has taken the producing world by storm. His contributions to the record setting, chart dominating single driver's license by Olivia Rodriguez, broke the records for Fastest Song, reaching 100 million streams. In fact, it beat Mariah Carey's All I Want for Christmas. What? It debuted at number one.

one and sat there for eight weeks, which is virtually unheard of for a debut artist. Of course, all this predictable success is after he launched another streaming star, Conan Gray. Original from Long Island, this overnight success started his career more than a decade ago with his band, as tall as lions. It goes to show that you just can't predict how a career can and will unfold. Funny, but it seems like his is only beginning. And the writer is, Daniel, aka Dan Nigro. How's it going? So Dan, Daniel,

Daniel son. Let's start from the beginning of today. You worked out today. I did. I worked out with a producer crew. Wait. What is that? I'm joking. I mean a couple of my friends.

but we're all producers and we all work out together on several days a week. Who are the other producers? Ariel Reckshide and Jesse Shacken. Those are very accomplished producers. Do you guys just like clink platinum plaques as you go or something? That's pretty much actually what we do. We're not allowed, I wasn't allowed to join until I had a platinum plaques.

That's really funny. Those are really good dudes. They're super nice. Yeah, they are. We have a good time. They're actually some of the first friends that I made when I moved out to L.A. 10 years ago. That makes sense.

All right, well, let's go even further back to May 14th, 1982. Long Island. I think it was Plainview, New York, I think. That's where I was born, yeah. It's a good time. Are your parents' musicians? Very, very non-musical parents.

They still, to this day, fully don't understand what I do. still my mom asked me two months ago when I was going to when I was going to be on American Idol you know you know it's weird and I don't want to get into my story

in the beginning of yours but when until my dad came to a BMI Awards thing and saw me win an award he literally said that you know we thought that because I used to play shows with my band that that was success if he saw me on stage.

Right. And he felt like this was not as successful because I'm not in a band anymore. When your mom's asking if you're in going to be on American Idol, is it because they still feel like your success is interlinked with your performing days? Yes, 100%.

To them, I'm still a performer. My mom still doesn't understand why I'm not singing. Like, she doesn't get it. She's like, she's like, why would you want to be in the background? I don't, I don't really fully understand. And, you know, like, when are you going to? So does this, you know, she'd be like, is this mean you're going to start releasing music again?

And I'm like, no, it's not, it's not what I want to do. How, does it, is it something that she literally struggles with understanding where I think, is she upset? Does she feel like you're squashing your talent? She definitely, like, she doesn't. I mean, I think for many years, they didn't fully understand what I was doing out here. They're like, I don't, like, I remember my dad even like, like, well, obviously my more my production career is taking off in the last couple years.

But when I first moved out to L.A., I was actually having a lot of success just writing jingles and making money by doing commercial work. And so I was making money when I first moved out here. And, like, even after I bought a house and like, you know, completely, like, based on, like, what I was doing with music, they were still like, well, like, are you going to move back and, like, maybe take over the family business

at some point? Like, when are you thinking about going back to college, you know? And I'm like, I make good money and I'm happy. Like, I don't understand why like, why would change my career path. Like, you know, they, like, didn't understand that, like, this was something that would actually, like, last for more than a couple years. What is the family business?

My dad owned an, he owned an office. products manufacturing company, oddly very, very similar to the office. And when the office came out, I swear I was like, did they have some spies in my dad's factory? Like, this is weird. Like, everything from the shipping department and the

amount of people in the actual office itself, it was like uncanny. Like, it really tripped me up for a while. Quitting college, did that disappoint your family? Did you go to college? Because you said... I dropped out of college. I got signed to a record deal when I was

19 so I was I was just starting my junior year of college maybe it was 20 maybe I was 20 like it was all happening around like late teens early 20s we got signed to triple crown records and I like wanted to like we did my entire band we quit school and I just like bummed it at my parents house for several years while I tried to like make it work

but yeah I mean at that point my parents were really confused and like actually looking back I mean I'm glad that I did it and it all worked out, but it was kind of funny that I, like, dropped out of school and, like, literally sat on my parents' couch for, like, six months waiting around for, like, my record label to decide when to put out our record, because we didn't really understand how any of it

worked, you know? And so we, for my entire what it would have been my senior year of college, I sat at home and drove my mother crazy because she, like, didn't understand what was happening. And really, rightfully so I didn't actually understand what was happening at the time. I think when

people get record deals, their assumption is that, and this is maybe even a different era, because it's a little easier to move records when you don't have to manufacture anything. Right. You know, when you're not distributing physical sales for the most part, things do move a little faster. But I think people think when you get that record deal

that things do move fast. And in reality, it's like you've been touring, you've been getting all this, you build up enough buzz to get a record deal, and then everyone puts the brakes on. Yeah, that's literally what happened. We literally put the brakes on for almost a year. And like, I mean, yeah, it's like, it's the most cliche story you could think of.

Like, I literally thought like, oh, yeah, we're signed. Like, now it's all, now everyone else does the work. Like, we did the work. You know, like, now we're going to sit back. And we finished our record. And we were like, cool, we're going to wait until they want to put it out. And then we'll start touring and we'll get on big tours because we're signed to our label now. And everything's just going to work out.

Yeah. And that's not how that happens. Well, when you, you know, I have enough notes here to know that you started, that you found your love of pop music in sixth grade. So let's start from sixth grade. Is that what I, did I say that in an interview? Must have said that in an interview because it's in my notes. Unless somebody else got that wrong.

Is that correct? Is that incorrect? I think I always love pop music. I feel like I was always like insecure in high school. school because all of my friends, like, there was like, I went to a Catholic high school and it was a really big school. Actually, I think there was like 400 or 500 kids in my grade. And there was like a music circle, like a click of music kids. And all the kids in my music circle, like, or just all the kids in the music circle was probably like 40 or 50 kids. They all listened to like alternative music or

punk music or emo or screamo or hardcore. Like I'm from Long Island. So like the emo and screamo scene that was the metal core and all that stuff was like so big and so if you were into music

as like a 14 or 15 year old like that's what you listen to you know and I feel like I was always like I was listening to like TLC and like Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey

and like you know I also I mean I did actually love like Pearl Jam and Nirvana and no doubt and Green Day and nine inch nails but like I also had this love of pop music but like nobody else shared

so like I bought those CDs and like it was like secretly like listening to like like Mariah Carey, like always be my baby, like, you know, like, but I don't know. So, so I always love pop music. And then when I was in my band, like I was always trying to make us a little bit more pop and then everyone was like, no, that's like not cool. Like pop music isn't cool. Like we got to make music that sounds like Our Lady Peace and, you know, Pearl Jam or whatever it was, you know,

what was big at the moment. That's funny. So I feel like I was always and it was, and even like growing up in the band and like I mean, granted, I got really into a lot of, like, Brit rock and alt rock in college, and I was really obsessed with it, but at some point, I was just going like, no, like, I actually find pop music really interesting, like the production

style and all that stuff. And I had no clue about it. I didn't know how to do it at all, but I just found it so fascinating. And I was finding, like, rock music in general was becoming, like, a little bit, like, it all sounded really, like, formulaic to me. Right. And so I started to, like, slowly, like, shift

my interest in what I, like, listened to and like and that was also like later I was like 28 20 I didn't start producing music until I was almost 30 when I guess making music making music in a band versus the music that you're listening to why why is it so hard for people to play the music they listen to or write the music they listen to why why were you not writing music that you listen to that's a great question I don't know I don't know why that happens you know I think honestly, like, I mean, I speak from a very, very singular point of view on it, because I was also like, I'm talking about being like an early 20s, like also like very insecure and like unconfident with themselves and like, like, you know, being, you know, you have the pressure of your surroundings of what your friends are listening to. And so like when you're going to shows, like in all your, you're going to these like cool like underground shows in New York City. So it's like you, you kind of like start to just make music in the scene that you're hanging out in and not maybe not so much of like. I don't, and that's, but that's me. That's me being like, I don't know, me and not, I can't speak for everybody on that.

I think that this is actually pretty common and, you know, someone like Ricky Reed who also did commercials before he produced. I've known, yeah, I've known Ricky since we were six, no, actually like 19 or 20. Yeah. Yeah, you know, like this is, that whole generation of writers that you mentioned, Ariel, whatever. A lot, a lot of these. writers that are about the same age, all of us were in bands, all of us were doing the thing, where we were all in bands, and then we all ended up in pop music. Right. So it's interesting that, you know, the perception of pop music versus, if that may, I don't know, there's something about the perception of, I think it changed at some point. I really feel like, I mean, for me personally around 2010, 2011, I remember it changing,

whereas, like, I went from, like, listening to, like, and I still listened at the time, like, I remember being excited about a new broken social scene record or a new Arcade Fire record or like a new Feist record or something that was like a little bit more indie-leaning. And at some point like friends were showing me like Beyonce records and being like, but listen to those drums. And I'd be like, right, like how do you make it sound like that? And at the time I didn't actually understand how to like bring like samples

or like drums into like a session. I just thought like the only way that you make drums is by actually like playing the drums, you know? So I was like I never, And I remember listening to like certain records and being confused is like, but how do they get it to sound like that? Because I can't, I'll put a microphone up

and like my drums don't sound like, how did, like I didn't understand the process in any way. And it wasn't until like starting to like, and then, you know, I remember like Justin Raisin and Ariel giving me like a sample folder and being like, no, like you just put these in the session. I'd be like, oh. Yeah, you just.

And then the idea of, you know, the thing is you would have to. do Beat Detective when you'd have a real drummer anyway to try to like quantize these real drummers to even if you had the best drummers in the world you still were shifting things around versus

Yeah but I didn't I literally didn't understand any of that Until like I was like you know Until I was like almost 30 Like I just didn't get it I didn't understand what was I was so confused by it None of it actually like even the songwriting world I was telling someone recently like it just didn't make sense to me Like I was like wait so you write a song

And it's not for you like you you go in with other writers and then you just make a song and then you try to hope that other artists will sing it but I don't understand how they how do they even hear the song like how do you know them

are you friends with them like it didn't make any sense to me it just was like I was so confused by the whole thing I think it doesn't make sense to it doesn't make sense to some of your peers it still doesn't make sense to like some of like people in the business

don't understand how it happens and honestly you are in a crew of people where a lot of times people really do write just one-on-one or if it's like these 50-50 songs or at most 33% songs. You're not in the part of the world. No, I think I tried to do that for a while. I think just because I was actually seeing songs that I loved,

like, you know, like it was like really inspired by like Max Martin Productions and like seeing what those people were doing. And like, so I was like, oh, like I like that music. I want to make music like that. Ultimately, I realized that I wasn't good at it. I was like, oh, I'm way better, like, in a quote-unquote band setting. Like, I'm good, like, one-on-one with the person and having, like, a really strong, like, emotional contact with that person

where we can be, like, really, really close and really talk about things and never feel rushed, you know, like you do a pitch session or even, like, other sessions, you bring in another writer and, like, oh, I have dinner at 7 p.m., I have this thing. And, like, you're like, oh, can I get a bounce of that or whatever it is? And I was like, I hate that. Like, I like to be able to, like, know that, like, if I don't, finish my thought that day

that I can still call that person tomorrow and be like, hey, so this is what I was thinking on that song and not feel weird about it. They're like, oh, that song that we didn't finish yesterday? Like, well, we didn't finish it. So why would that be a song? And that mentality really freaks me out, like the whole like, you know,

like feeling like so detached from the song in that way. I hope that gives permission to people who are hearing this that it's okay to do that, to write a song and not finish it in a day. Yeah.

It's so logical to people who are in bands or who are artists who, when they write for themselves, most people aren't writing a song, a full song in the day. But it's okay if you just write a pre-chorus. Yeah, I mean, a lot of my favorite songs, especially with like Olivia and stuff for Conan, like, we're like, we spend, like, a lot of, you know, especially with Olivia's album, like, like seven, eight different versions of a song, you know, like changing it. Like, is that chorus good? Is that verse good?

Like, can we go back and fix it? Should we start over and re-record the whole song? You know, like, and I think those things are so important, you know, that to, like, be able to feel comfortable enough with the other person to, like, to know that, like, you can, like, go back and fix something that has the potential to be great. I think that, like, in the modern songwriting world, which is really, like, freaks me out, is that when people, like, hear a song, like, oh, I don't like it. and you're just like, why don't you like it?

Is there something great in this? Because I feel like there's something great here. Maybe I didn't nail it on the first try, but like we can get it there. And people don't have that. They'll just hear it and like that's it. Like that what they hear the first time and they don't think that there's any potential for change.

That's the max thing that you get when you say that you want to be like Max or when you want to sound like him. to sound like him, you have to be willing to go back. Right. None of those songs are written in a day. No. None of them are produced in a day. Not one.

Yeah. Never. So it's like that mentality is what makes a lot more sense. And now you see the value of doing that too. Yeah. I mean, I have, I've stopped doing it the other way. Like, it's been years. Like, I, you know, I spent years, like, kind of, I feel like, I don't want to say it was

wasting my time because I honestly truly believe that you, learn something from every session you ever do and even like the most random session like I feel like there was a session you know like you know I probably did like seven years ago with some artist that like I'd you know talk to for the three hours that they were over the house and then they left and then like I could be in a session seven years later and be like oh and then like they think somebody asked an artist asked me oh can you like make it sound like this and I'm like oh my god like I actually made a sound like that like seven years of ago. And instead of me

spending four hours trying to figure out how I get that sound, I'm like, oh, like, yeah, I know exactly how to do that. I could do it in five minutes now. And so that moment seven years ago that you were like, wow, that was such a waste of a day, all of a sudden becomes like such a valuable moment to you. Yeah. Do you still do pitch sessions? No.

No, I don't, I haven't done one in probably like two years. It's only with artists, right? Yeah, it's only with artists. Yeah. I don't, I actually, the weird thing is that I really like doing pitch sessions. Like, I have fun in them. I just don't think that, like, they're very fruitful for anything.

I just, like, I enjoy the moment of, like, hanging out and making a song, you know? Yeah. But I don't think that anything's ever, like, come from a pitch session I've done in the last five years. Well, it helps if you're with artists that take outside songs, and then you can actually just hand play them, you know, while we're working hey check out this hook that I wrote with a friend kind of thing you know maybe that's where it's like useful for

somebody who's not like I do what I do actually I'll do more like and I haven't actually done it this year at all but I have you know I've done like beat days I would call them you know like where me and someone like Jimmy Stack get together and we'll just like make like these like little four bar loops

are like really interesting things and like and I love that because it's so creative and freeing because you're not pressured to write a song. You're just like creating some cool drums and some cool chords that you like and then I'll bring them into sessions with artists. And that, I've done quite a few songs that way where I've brought in like

just a musical sketch, you know? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I find those sessions to be so inspiring like for me and also like just they're creatively fulfilling and then also they've actually been you know worth it because I've used them multiple

times let's say Caroline Pollich and actually this I did a cautious clay song recently in which that stemmed from like a, you know, like a beat that Jimmy and I made. Totally. Wait, let's go back a little bit because I kind of feel like I skipped over you starting as a songwriter. I mean, here you were listening to music in high school that was different than anybody, but you know, when you're in a band that gets signed at 19, you didn't start writing songs at 19. You played guitar. So when did you start playing guitar?

When did you start writing songs? I started playing piano when I was about five. And there's a really funny story that my mom, basically, I hated the piano. I hated it. I hated practicing. And I was like probably like eight years old. And I was like, I hate it, mom. I just don't ever want to play.

What's the point? I'm not going to be like a piano player. Like I didn't, you know. And my mom was like, by the time you're 18, you're going to be thankful that I made you stick it out on the piano. and I was like, no, I'm not, I promise I'll never. She's like, all right, we're signing a contract. And she literally, I remember in like one of those like old, like composition notebooks wrote a contract where it was like, if you enjoy the piano by the time you're 18,

like you owe me $1,000, you know, like. And so, and sure enough, by the time I was like 14, I was like, I was in love with the piano and like I was like playing in a band and like, you know, like half of my friends were because I played like played music, you know. And then I started playing it. But it really started, I remember, very specifically, like, in sixth or seventh grade when I got really into Nirvana. And I, like, wanted to pick up the guitar. And I was, like, watching, like, Kirk Cobain, like, was it 9-inch...

What was it? MTV Unplugged. Yeah. The Nirvana's performance of MTV Unplugged. And, like, about a girl was, like, the first song that I learned how to play on the guitar. And then I was just, like, went through this Nirvana phase for, like, two years where that's the only thing I listened to when I learned, like, how to play guitar. Like, every song off of Nevermind. and then like right after that in utero came out and like so I was just like obsessed with like grunge music

Nirvana and Pearl Jam and Nine-ish Nails I mean those were basically the big three that I was just like that I listened to religiously and that stemmed into me like forming a band in like high school. Wait was as tall as lines from high school? Yeah we started in in 10th grade how crazy is that?

Are you still friends with all the guys? I am friends with them actually, yeah. I'm closer with the guitar player, Sean. We still like talk on the phone, but we still haven't as tall as lines like text thread that we like text every, you know, when something funny happens or like there's like somebody like sends us a funny like DM or you know, or a nice, whatever it is.

Like we'll text each other about stuff. When you get signed at Triple Crown, you know, what are the expectations? You know, that's a great question. I think, I mean, what the expectations that I had and the expectations that I think Triple Crown had were probably very different things. What were those? Because I was just like, literally like, and it's so funny thinking about like my mental attitude of like writing, like, especially when I work with people like Conan or like Olivia who were like, we're pretty much about the same age as me when I got signed. But Colin is probably about the same age when we got signed.

and just they're like how prolific they are as songwriters like how much they write and how like how much they know about the music industry and like they're like the way that they navigate things I think maybe because the internet is like makes it a little bit easier on people now but back then I just my honestly my creative thought was like was like well when inspiration hits that's when I write a song so like I wrote a song once every two months because that's when like it naturally just came to me like the thought of like working at the craft

as a teenager was not something that I thought was possible. I was like, no, no, no, you can't make a song happen. It has to come to you. Plus there's an ego attached to people who are in bands who get signed where it's like, I can do this, I already have a deal. I feel like people tend to think that they don't have to, you know, that Kirkobane wrote 13 songs for Nevermind and then that was it. You know, and maybe he did.

And that's maybe the worst. That might be the, those are the things that really kill you as an artist is when you hear those stories of well. Yes. Sting only wrote 10 songs per album. You're like, that's awesome. You were Sting. And for everyone else. And even those artists, like, you'd listen to some of these great albums.

You'd be like, objectively, you can still say in a lot of great albums there are probably three or four songs that were not hits. Yeah. You know? And a lot of those great albums, yeah, brilliant work because they sent you, we, we listened to albums, so we tolerated them to the point where we actually really liked those songs that were not hits. But there's no appetite for that now.

So now you really need, if you're going to do an album, you know, 10 hits, which means you have to write a lot of songs, you know, or at least have really good co-writers in it. So you can potentially get through it, you know? I think that it's really interesting that we tend to like like grant what's the word I'm looking for

like not grandize like we we we tend to like make those moments like I remember reading like a book about radio heads okay computer and like

and it being like oh they were like they kept on scrapping songs and they like didn't like what they were doing and I'm like oh that's what you need to feel like you need to hate everything you're doing in order to make good music you know like you need to like think that you're not great and like or like you need to like be at odds with your record label and fight for things in order for it to be like a good thing you know and I think that we tend to like not we I say like as I feel like my generation like when you came from like a band like you tend to like fantasize that that those are like the moments like

that you're making real art as if you're at odds with everybody and like you're doing something completely different or something. I feel like that's almost like typified by when you're a front man, at least, you know, a lot of the front guys that I knew at the time, like we drank a lot when we performed. Like we would always, you'd always have like a drink from the bar while you're performing or you do. It was just this idea of almost if you act like a front man, then maybe then you are. a front man. Rather than the coolest guy is probably the guys like,

nah, I don't drink, I just go crazy on stage would be, you know, but everyone else was trying to be Scott Weiland or trying to be, you know, some of these other guys. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which is just funny because now it's like such a different vibe. Like, I feel like the most like successful people that I work with are all

like, they show up. If the session's at noon, like they're there at 1159 and they're like ready to go and they have ideas and everything's like prepped and like, it's like, we're like, in a different mode now. And I'm, I'm for it. I'm into it. I just feel like it was a different world back then. Yeah. It's totally different, different world. I mean, like you were saying, artists actually show up having some knowledge about the music business, so they act,

you know, with that in mind. But let's keep going. So why did the band break up? For like a multitude of reasons, but when I try to like really think about it, we were all unhappy. I think we were all afraid of like, you know, when you're in a band, I think a lot of people struggle with this is like, like, their identity is like wrapped up in the band, you know, or like, as their artist's self so that when like that thing no longer seems to exist, then it's like, who are they, you know? And I kind of feel like, even, I mean, me, myself included, like, we all kind of like, we're like, nobody was truly happy doing it, but nobody was willing to like let it go, you know? And I basically came out to L.A.

And there was like a lot of things like between creatively and personally that were like bothering me and everybody else. Like I'm, you know, they had issues with me and I had issues with them. Um, uh, but it wasn't when I, it was literally when I came out to L.A. just to like go on vacation and I was like hanging out with Justin Raisin and like met REL. And basically he was like doing some songwriting work. They were basically like, they were basically like, they were basically like that was like when they were like stepping they're putting their toe in the water and figuring it out and I was just out at the right time and I was like really inspired by what they were doing and that's when I kind of started to like understand what was happening with just like what pop music entailed and like writing for other people and I just fell in love and I just kind of brought me into a couple of sessions to write and I enjoyed it and also basically like we did a commercial or two and like on a whim like I just did a commercial or two with him and they like landed and I was like, oh, and we were both kind of like, yo, like, you might be good at this. And I was like, wait. So there's like,

I felt like I had the strength to like leave. You know, I was like, I have something else that I could do in my life that I'm enjoying. Well, and do something else musically. It's not just something. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I had something else musically that I could do and I was actually, and I enjoyed it more. So I just like, I remember very vividly like the, I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to leave the band. I'm going to move out to L.A. I'm going to become a songwriter and do commercials, you know. And I remember, like, told the band, and they were, you know, I mean, everyone, including myself was really upset. Like, it was, like, a really hard thing.

We were a family. Like, we had been together for basically making music together since, you know, we were in high school. Yeah, we were, like, 1997 we started making music together. Yeah. So, it was really hard. It was hard. Yeah. And then, but it also was really hard to go home and tell my parents, like, I'm moving out to L.A.

and I'm going to be a songwriter. And they were like, what? What are you talking about? It's weird. It's almost a, it's almost, and I mean this, it's like a creative coming out. You know, it's like an artist. It's almost like coming out of the closet as an artist where you end up saying that this is, this is who I, what I really want to do is be a songwriter.

I don't want to have a normal job. was like it's like a really hard conversation for a lot of people to have with their parents because you're sort of the expectations are that you you know you you probably you know be a doctor or something you know what actually the crazy the craziest thing is that like the band like things were actually going somewhat okay and I like I say somewhat okay but like we were finally starting to make money and we were finally starting to like do things you know and like like have like shows we I just headlined like I I it or Irving Plaza, which I think is now called the Fillmore in New York City to like a thousand people or something. We were like, finally making headway and we were like getting known to be like a good touring band and we were going to start making our fourth album

and like I remember like our booking agent and our label were like, what is wrong with you guys? Like you just are getting going, you know? But we were all like, no. I don't know, this is not my life. Yeah. And the thing is you end end up getting as much, almost as much

money in those commercial licenses as you did in your share of a record deal. Oh my God, more. I made more money in the first year that I moved out to L.A. making commercials than I did in the five years that I was in the band, you know? What year was it that you moved out here? I officially moved out in 2011. So between 2011 and, you know, there's, there are some releases and you work with some. major label artists, you get in with Sky who obviously has

so much talent and it didn't totally work out. You worked with a couple big names and you got in with Dylan Francis and Carly Ray and you get in stuff, but it's like sort of one cut per year, two cuts per year. Not that that's bad, but it wasn't

Why are you judging me? Why are you judging me? But it wasn't where you're at now and so you have these seven years of growth before you start getting, you know, the kind of cuts that we now sort of, not to put pressure on you, but expect from you. Good. I want to be expected to have those cuts.

But, I mean, honestly, how does somebody survive? How does somebody survive on a cut per year? I mean, you don't. I mean, I always, like, felt weird, like, when people, like, came to my house for the first couple years in sessions, and I'd be like, they're like, you own this house? And I'm like, not from songwriting. Not from songwriting.

Like, it was from commercials. I mean, I landed a lot. I mean, I made a good amount of money from doing commercials, so I was able to kind of like sustain myself, sustain myself by doing ad work, which was I'm so grateful for. And, yeah, basically that's, I didn't make any money from the songwriting.

I mean, it's like, it's almost comical looking at, you know, my, you know, my ASCAP checks from like 2012 to 2017. They're, you know, they're pretty comical to see. Why did you not give up on the writing during that time when you're doing the commercial stuff? What's even the point during those seven years to pursue being a... That's a great question.

I just loved it so much. It's just like, it's just what I saw myself doing. It was like, this is what I want to do, and I really loved what I was doing. I loved writing songs. I mean, and the great thing about doing a commercial is that it doesn't take very long. You know, you could make a lot of money,

from making a commercial that could essentially take you like five or six hours to do. So if you did a good job on a commercial, you know, one week and you can make $10,000 or $15,000 from doing a commercial, then like you can, I mean, ultimately like that's what enabled me to focus my energy on writing songs and producing was being able to like sustain that from doing ad work, you know? Yeah, plus, you know, if you get in certain ads that commercials that last a long time, And yeah, the ASCAP checks in 2012 might be funny, but the ASCAP checks in 2017 start to look different.

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, you don't really make that much money from commercial, like the royalties from commercial, but what you do make is the residual income from, like, I mean, I'm also fortunate because I'm a singer, so I sang background vocals on a lot of commercials that got SAG. So, like, the SAG union pays really great money. And, you know. I can't tell writers enough how important it is to sing on records and how important it is for producers to make sure that your co-writers

sing or clap or do something on a record so that they can get health care. Yeah. It's really a big part of the songwriting world is making sure you're performing on the records. And people don't get it that if how many of your friends are, you know, actors who would kill to be in a commercial? Yeah. And here you sing on something and you get paid the same.

It's hard to explain that to people. And they just don't believe it until it's too late. Yeah, I always find that, yeah, I think that more songwriters should be doing that type of work on the side. If they're, like, you know, trying to make an income, like, it's, I totally, you know, great. I feel like some people like, like, I don't know, if they don't frown upon them, but like, oh, it's not like songwriting. You're like, well, it is songwriting. And you can make money from it. So like, do it, you know?

Totally. So something shifts in 2018, you know. Basically, what shifted for me was at some point I decided to, like, kind of just do what I wanted to do. I think I was always trying to follow in the footsteps of, like, you know, the people around me and seeing what other people were doing. And obviously, like, you're, like, you're influenced by your peers and stuff. and at some point I just like something clicked in my head and I know it was in I remember

it was like 2017 like I started to like I just would hear things on like a very visceral level and just be like I want to work with that person or like or somebody would send me something and like oh like the record labels are really into this artist and like in like 2015 I'm like okay cool like people are into this music I don't really get it

but I'll do it you know and at some point I just said like no I'm just going to do whatever I want to do you know and i met i've caroline pollichick was like one of my fears was in chairlift and she was coming starting to make a solo record and i heard from someone and i just found her voice to be like the most incredible thing ever and i like reached out to her and we started working and then i met and then literally i remember being in a session with r l grime and i was like writing a you know like an edm e type of song with him

and he was playing me some new music and he played me this song and there was someone singing on it and I was just like, who's singing this song? He was like, oh, this girl named Freya? And I was like, I need to meet this person and I literally was like, who is she? Like, I don't know, she's the girl from England

that my manager set me up with and I like reached out to his manager was like, who's singing that song? He's like, this girl Freya Riding's and I looked her up and I literally like I couldn't find a single thing on her and I reached out to her people and I was like, I need to write a song

with this artist. Like this is my favorite voice I've heard all year And they were like, oh, she'll be in England Like she'll be in L.A. in April from this day to this day And I was like, and I was like, I'm going to be in New York that week But I'm going to fly back to write with this person And I literally flew back from L.A. To, I flew back to L.A. for one day to write a song with Freya

And that was castles. We wrote castles that day. And I just, I feel like that was, and then I heard somebody showed me Conan And I was like that kid's voice is insane. saying I want to work with him and I want to just like I started to realize what I was good at doing and I was like good at working with people who had really unique voices and I realized about myself that I wasn't a great lyricist that I'm really good at everything else but like

really getting the story down I can help somebody finish a story but I'm not like the one to come in with like the concept so I realized when I started to work with artists that were like had that were like concept heavy artists that were able to like write from a very like real experience and also have really interesting things to say that I could kind of fill in every other gap, like whether it be like

production or chords or melodies or transitions, like, just helping fill like the spaces that those artists needed. And I kind of realize that that's what I was good at doing. And I feel like that's when kind of my career changed when I started to just like focus on,

started to focus on literally the things that I knew that I was good at as opposed to like things that people were telling me that I should do. It's so hard to do. do that, man. You make it sound so easy, but most people will look at the opportunity to work with an artist if they have certain accolades or certain social media imprints and nobody really, like people tend to not say, wow, that guy's voice is great, so I'm going to work with them. Because there's no way, you know, Conan was not Conan when you heard him.

But he was. Like that's the thing. is that I know it does sound weird but I can't stress enough that like literally like I literally started following my gut and I know it sounds crazy but I literally just like and with Conan with Freya

like all my successful like artists that I've worked with in the last three years Conan Freya Caroline Olivia I literally heard Caroline's a little different because I've known her music for a while and always a fan

but with those other three I literally heard it for five seconds and was like that's it. That's the thing. I'm in love and I want to be a part of it. Before we get into a couple questions with Conan and Olivia, you also worked with Phineas and both of you guys are on a different and similar trajectory at the exact same time and you guys live in the same neighborhood. Yeah, I think we live like four blocks away from each other. Yeah. What is, what, what, how does that happen?

Actually, that was just more so like our management. Both of our management were friends. Actually, it was his management and my A&R at my old publishing company were friends. And they were like, you should meet. And I remember he came over. And then after the first song, we wrote the song Heaven for his project. And he was like, I like working with you, but you basically just do the same thing that I do. But, it was like...

Dude, there's a thousand people who do, quote, do what you guys do, who don't have the biggest artist and the biggest single. You know, so there's something about, I mean, the odds of that are still minuscule. You've worked with a lot of other producers in your life that do similar things that don't end up, you know, where Phineas is. And vice versa. It's just crazy timing. Yeah. But let's go to Conan.

Conan ends up, you know, Kid Crow and this, this album takes off. And that's way bigger than anything else, I feel like, that you had worked on. Maniac is huge, how there's huge... Streaming numbers just really significant. But they weren't necessarily crossing over to hits that say your mom would know. Right, of course. My mom still was like, I don't ever heard that song. So you still have 300 million or 400 million streams, and yet no one knows who...

Like, no one in your family knows who this is. You go home for Thanksgiving and they're unimpressed with... this massive success. Was that frustrating? I don't care about any of that stuff. I just want to make good... I say this and I really don't mean to sound like a cliche,

but I don't care about that shit. I don't care what other people think. I just... I realize, like, just make music that you like making. And honestly, the more that I enjoy making the music, it turns out that the more it works out. You know? Okay, Olivia.

This is... You know, I... I know that there's a thing with authors who write their book that is impossible to you know,

it's going to be impossible for J.K. Rowling to beat Harry Potter. You know what I mean? It's like you can try, but statistically it's unlikely. And here you come across this another great singer and tell me about like

meeting her and you know that process i mean yeah i've told the story a couple times but basically you know because of because of the success of conan and the fact that you know like i'd been with him since the beginning of his pretty much everything besides idle town um you know we had worked on together um and i feel like i had like a large hand and kind of like helping him you know figure out his sound he's very involved in it i mean he's super involved and knows exactly what he wants, which makes it so much easier. But because of that, obviously, you have so many, you have so many people who hit you up being like, hey, like, you did this thing with Conan, like, do this thing with my artist, you know? And I'm like,

that's not how this works. Like, you know, like, you need someone with a vision. Conan has a vision. You know, he knows what he wants. He knows who he is. You know, and so most of the time people send me things and I'm just like oh god like no not this no no no no and somebody sent me olivia and was like you should check out this girl olivia she follows you on instagram I was like who's olivia rodrigo and i literally went on to instagram and i heard her she performed this song that she wrote called happier and i just thought it was like such a clever concept and i was like damn that's a great freaking hook and i was like i really like that and i just deemned her and i was like yo i think you're incredible like let's write a song or like let me try producing a song you know like i

I don't even need to write with, you know, whatever it is. And so, yeah, so basically we met and then the quarantine happened. And so we actually didn't get to like, we actually, we met literally the week that everything went into lockdown. And then we obviously spent like a few months not working because we just like emailed back and forth casually. She sent me some songs. And I was just obsessed with happier. So I was like, once like we started to figure out like, oh, you live in Pasadena. Like, okay, like you haven't been seeing anybody.

I'm not seeing anybody you know like why don't you come over you live five minutes away and we'll try to I was like we'll just track happier like I'll get your vocal and I can mess around with it

you know and so she came over we recorded a vocal and I just started messing with it and to be honest like it was you know it was a learning process because she had never really been having songs produced

and she wasn't exactly sure what she wanted yet so like the first like go ahead or two I like remember like doing my first pass of happier and thinking to myself like wow like I think this would be really cool. I did like a verse and a chorus

and I played it first. She's like, oh, I don't like that. I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I was actually kind of shocked because I thought it sounded really cool. And she's like, no, I don't really hear it on guitar, blah, blah, blah. So like, we tried it again.

And then she liked it more, but still wasn't it. So then at that point, we started to try writing together and we actually started realizing that we had an interesting writing chemistry, you know? So we were writing a bunch and I was, yeah, I think we were fortunate to not have a lot of noise around us because of the pandemic and because there wasn't like a lot of stuff happening, we were able to kind of just like hone in on something because we were like just like getting together

all the time and just like messing around with stuff and exploring what she could sound like, you know, and luckily I was given like I got, you know, I messed, I don't want to say messed up, but I, you know, I definitely like tried a few things and had, you know, her and her label be like, like that's not really what we're thinking or like we don't really like that or like you know and then I'd try something else and then we like you know started hitting on some things you know I mean that's amazing because most first of all most people would view that as rejection and say well and have an ego about it and probably walk away from a project if they didn't nail it on the first try or the second try so kudos to you it says a lot about you to you know to keep going

but I think but I think that's what it takes to do something really good like you know Who, like, does something really good the first time? You know, I don't know. I'm not that person, you know? Yeah. Well, we put out in this segment, we said we had Twitter questions of, you know, what? I apologize in advance. Apparently, you and Olivia have a lot of fans.

Okay. So, some of these questions are to, about driver's license, and then some are not. Some are not. We're only allowed three driver's license questions. Good. Then I think that's about what we picked out and then we can move on. How did you know when the song was finished and did you feel it was as special as it was? It's a very complicated question because the song, we both knew that it was special.

Like when Olivia brought me the song, she had written most of it. I helped, there's like some very specific parts like we wrote the bridge together and I helped write that the second half of the chorus we wrote together because she had a different iteration of that and it felt like when she played it for me and it felt like it didn't really like hit home yet

and so like we, so I wrote like certain spots but the majority of it she wrote she brought in the concept and most of the lyrical idea and I remember being like really attracted to it because just like the chords like were different than her normal

core progressions. It was like a much more like emotional chord progression which she like wasn't, you know, a lot of the stuff wasn't leaning that way. And she was excited about it and we like, but then also once you have that excitement, they're like, there's like an importance to it so like you can't mess it up, you know? And so we actually redid the song three times because we started too fast and then we tried something else and then we didn't like the way that the vocals were approached. So we kept on messing with it. But every time that we were like working on it, it felt so special. Like there were moments when we were working on it that we were just like, oh my God, this feels so incredible. But then like we'd like listen back the next day and be like,

it doesn't feel right yet. Like we kept on having that moment where like in the moment it felt really great and then like listening on reflection felt not so great, you know. So we had to keep on tweaking it and tweet like we kept on slowing the song down. Like we kept, because we didn't want the song to feel too long because it was like, so we kept on slowing it down, which was like a thing. but that also says a lot about her too that she can is willing to go back and not not give up and to still believe and encourage her collaborators to oh yeah i mean that's one of the

i mean there's so many incredible things about olivia but i mean that's one of the things we just hashed we have songs that like you know that didn't make the album that like we i mean like i know we're going to keep on working on they're just not ready yet you know But yeah, that was, driver's license was tough because we felt. But at the same time, you get so in it that you like, you start to go like, is it great? Like, I think it's good. And I remember it really wasn't until like we played it for everybody else.

Like you need like, you almost like need that like validation of like, you know, because I was so in it at that point. I think I had worked on the song. I probably worked on the song for like almost three weeks, you know. And then I was like, I was questioning it. And then we sent it to the label and they were just like, oh my God. You know, they were just so excited. They're like, but I don't actually think even like, oh, it's a big song. It just felt like, it felt special.

Like, wow, this is a really beautiful song. You know, like, we love it. They were just so excited about the song. There was no like, oh, it's going to be a hit or like we think it's going to be huge. To me, that never even crossed my mind. It was just like, oh, we made something really special. And I think we figured out like a large part of Olivia's sound. I think if anything, I was more excited that we had like figured out something that she loved.

you know, sonically. Because she's such a prolific songwriter, and I think that she doesn't really think a lot of song, a lot of times, I don't want to say every time, but a lot of times I don't think that she thinks in terms of production. She just thinks in terms of songs. So that, you know, figuring out the production is like, can be quite challenging because she's just thinking about the song itself.

That's also a recipe for success if you put the song first. Oh, yeah. Someone else also asked, just speaking of that song, just to you know said thank you Dan for writing a bridge on driver's license can you talk about the importance of having a bridge in this and why so many songs are now bridgeless i don't i mean i agree i joked around today i have a song that came out today with conan gray and we made a really big bridge for it and i'm just all i've always been since i was a kid big into bridges and always in my band always tried to write like tried to outdo the rest of the song with the bridge so i feel like

bridges are really important to songs and it's so it honestly like if there's anything that's like rewarding about the song for me on a personal level it's the fact that people love the bridge and like and like appreciate that it's there i know that sounds silly but like it just feel like because i feel like we made it such a moment that like you know people and the fact that people talk about it was just cool. And then like I feel like even more confident with like Conan like on a couple of our new songs like we have you know really big bridges and it feels

like really important to make the bridge special you know. When did you I mean somebody asked when did you know it was a hit? I think you everyone knows when we all knew it was a hit it was all the same time. It was on Saturday January 9th.

I mean it's just so crazy to have you'll have other singles out in your life but why and how did it go I mean how? How does this happen? Everyone in the industry wants to know how this happened. I don't know. Don't ask me that. I don't know. I'm just so freaking grateful that it happened.

When writing up the follow-up songs you've already deja vu and is also successful but do you start changing your expectations? No, honestly, no. I will say that the one and one of the greatest things about Olivia too

is like she's just like focus as a head. You know, like just we're working towards a thing. We've been working towards it the whole time. I mean, I don't know. I mean, the expected, the only thing that changed was just knowing like it felt like, I think everybody felt like a little bit

you know, Olivia, me, like, the label, it's like, we didn't know what to expect from, you know, just like what people were going to think of her as, like, you know, doing her own project and how, and see, so seeing how, like, warm of a welcome driver's license got, like how much of an open arms, you know, thing it had, just made us feel more confident in what we were doing, you know? I think of anything, it just made us feel, like, excited that we had other songs

that we were already done, that we were like, oh, wow, like, people are going to, I don't know how to explain it. It was just, it almost felt like a relief, you know, in a way of like, wow, like, people are going to love this because we're working on such. We already felt like it was what we were working on was special. So to like know that we had like other songs that were like felt really great just was like made it feel better. I feel like I'm not articulating that.

No, no, that, it makes sense. Let's go to the next segment. We're going to go, this is a five for five. I'm going to list five people or things. and you're just going to tell me what comes out the top of your head. Okay. All right. Let's start with your wife.

My wife is my best friend. She's amazing. And I think that I don't know if I would have, I attribute a lot of my recent success to her because I have someone that I can actually talk to. And she's honestly, one of the craziest things is she's like my best sounding board. you know i it's crazy she has like i don't want to say she has perfect she doesn't have perfect pitch she has really good relative pitch she's not a musician in any way like literally just never practiced music in her life i think she maybe played the i think it's the violin when she was like

really little but like she doesn't really know music but she can like she'll like come in the room and i'll be working and i'll be like what do you think and she's like the snare drum sounds like it's in a different room than the rest of the song. I think you need to change the snare sound. Like, she's that specific. So brilliant. She's such a pro, and I like, I love playing her stuff because I feel like I get,

and she's really, she'll always be like, I don't like that song. That sounds annoying, you know, like, so. It's so funny. If people knew the, the playlist of songs that wives of songwriters or husbands of songwriters, the ones that they don't like,

that came out that were hits or not hits. But it's pretty funny. There's definitely a list of those for everybody where I'm sure that there'd be a lot of people would want to know who's on your list. Let's go with your, I forgot what you called it, but your production crew, you know, with Ariel and, you know, Jesse. I work out crew.

Your workout crew, throw in Justin Raisin in there, some of these guys that you're close with. How do you describe your crew in L.A.? I don't know Oh, how do we describe them? I don't know how we describe them. It's an interesting thing. I think that's, I think I love the fact that especially people, yeah, like, I mean,

Ariel, Jesse, Justin, like, they're all people that, like, I'm really close with, but they're also so talented and also we're talented in different ways. So, like, it creates a really good, like, sense of, like, a competitive energy that I like. I think having people around you that are actually really great at what they do, to make you feel like a little jealous or envious at times is really helpful to make you better you know you hear songs that they work on you're like oh wow that's really great like i wish that i had thought of that or like that like i feel like i get i you know i feel like ariel's someone that i have a certain relationship or he's always like playing me songs that like he's working on and i feel like i have like it's always

cool to hear that kind of stuff and like it inspires me and then like also like i feel like i can tell when there's something like, oh man, that song's going to be big. Like, I feel like I have those moments where I can like pick out like, that's going to be a good one, you know? Yeah. Let's go with Conan Gray. Say it again? Conan Gray.

What comes to mine when I think of Conan? Yeah. He's my son. I love it. Olivia Rodriguez. She's my daughter. I have two surrogate children, yes. That's beautiful.

and then let's go with your, now I want to know what your mom thinks. So let's go with your mom. But what are my mom thinks about what? Well, she started with the career wondering when you were going back to college. My mom has this funny thing where she thinks everything should be revolved around me. Obviously, all mothers are. So, like, I mean, Olivia and I were joking, like when driver's license started to blow up. And like Olivia did an interview or two and my mom watched them and she, like,

Olivia didn't talk about me as she shouldn't have to talk about me in any. of her interviews. And my mom's like, you know, Dan, I watched an interview with Olivia and she didn't talk about you at all. And I'm like, okay, well, why would she have to talk about me? She doesn't need to talk about me at all, you know? She's like, well, I don't know. I mean, she talked about driver's license and she didn't mention you at all. Like, I don't know why she would. If you were performing on it, maybe that would be... Well, listen, man, thank you so much for doing the podcast. You know, it's fun to watch.

You know, it's like we were saying I said in the beginning, the quote, overnight success and I put, I mimed quotes because everyone really thinks when people come out of nowhere that it's out of nowhere and it's not. It's years

of living in L.A. doing commercial music after being in a band and having a deal and touring and you know, after being a kid who listens to music, It's years of work. And so for people to just get to know you after breaking records, it's amazing. I love that people might think that you're an overnight success.

A 39-year-old overnight success. It just amazing, man. You've earned all of it. And congratulations. Thank you very much, man. I really appreciate that. Thanks for listening to this episode of Anne the Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com.

If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Gouldon. on.