And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 134: Jin Jin

Episode Date: June 7, 2021

Today’s guest boasts a more diverse catalogue and interesting journey than your average songwriter. With multi-platinum hits across genres, her own label/publishing/management company, Jinsing, and a Senior A&R position at Parlophone Records, she has achieved so much since hanging out in her Grandad’s reggae shop as a child. Recognising the early talent of the now seven times #1 artist Jess Glynne whilst hosting a song-writing masterclass at Jess’s college, our guest went on to co-write the UK No. 1’s ‘Hold My Hand’ which led to her Ivor Novello nominations and to her winning a BMI Award. She has gone on to collaborate with a host of international producers and artists and recently co-wrote the 2021 UEFA Championship x Pepsi anthem ‘Rotate’ by Burna Boy and Becky G. Other collaborators include producers such as Fraser T Smith, Toby Gad, Stephen Di Genius, Diplo and David Guetta, and artists Jax Jones, Paloma Faith & Sigala, RAYE, Madison Beer, Sean Paul, Rita Ora, Clean Bandit, Craig David, Gary Barlow, Jennifer Lopez & Maluma, Joel Corry and Hailee Steinfeld. In recognition of her achievements she was nominated for Songwriter Of The Year at the Music Business Worldwide Awards 2018, and won the “Music Creative” Award at Music Week's 2018 Women In Music event. She also recently won her second BMI award for Madison Beer’s ‘Home With You’ and joined the board of Directors of the prestigious Ivors Academy in 2020. And The Writer Is… Jin Jin!Artwork: Michael Richey White. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. www.com. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's entrepreneurial discoverer of talent is an artist, a music executive,

an advocate in addition to a what's that called, A hit songwriter. Making waves from across the pond, she has scooped up Brit and Ivor Novello award nominations, and is currently on the board of the latter. Her mastery of talent recognition was first exemplified by developing one of the United Kingdom's top-of-the-chart talents, Jess Glenn. This explains why she has now been bestowed the senior A&R position

at one of the UK's biggest labels, Parlophone. originally from Manchester, England, across the Atlantic Sea, she has proven she can do it all whilst still being creative. And the writer is Jeney Bennett, aka Jinn-Ginn. Hey. Hey. Thank you for having me. I haven't seen you.

We probably haven't seen each other for like five years or something. So long, yeah. I think it was, where was it, Westlake, Westlake Studios in L.A. Yeah, like a camp. Classic. I mean, that's so cool when you get to work in studios where, I mean, that's obviously, I think it's the off the wall for Michael Jackson kind of studio and stuff like that. Crazy.

And then obviously from the UK coming over to L.A. to do writing sessions and then being in a studio like that, I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Like, I was so jet lagged. I was confused. Yeah, that's exactly the right time to, uh, be in a session when you're not overthinking it and you're just you're just spouting out things because you're probably like quietly exhausted and emotional. And they keep feeding you all those cookies.

Oh my God. At the studio there's cookies. Oh man. I'm so chubby right now. But that's the second point. Okay. So let's let's start from the beginning because, you know, we don't have a ton of guests that we're, you know, born in Manchester, England, which although there are a lot of,

art centers in England. I guess Manchester doesn't always seem to pop up as the first spot that you go to to become an artist. It's a super industrial town. So were your parents musicians? No. My father was actually, was a football player. I played soccer. Sorry, you get to say soccer. And my mom, she's into music and she used to work part-time for my granddad in his reggae music store. So I used to always hang out with my granddad and he used to play all these old school reggae tunes and I suppose that was my first real introduction into music but Manchester is super musical.

You know, it's known for loads of indie bands and also my parents used to tell me about a dance electronic nightclub called the Hacienda. So loads of like the electronic music used to come out of there and they used to always be playing house music in the house and reggae and hip-hop and moose. town and stuff. So was it music, was any of that music from England? It feels like that's all such international kind of music. When I think of reggae, I don't think of England.

I assume that that was, you know, island Jamaican music that you're listening to mostly. And then same with house music. I guess some of that can be in the UK. But where was music being generated from? So all over really. And I think it's because we had, you know, my grandparents moved over to the UK and, you know, ended up in Manchester. So there was like a huge Caribbean community and they would just make a community within the UK. So the, you know, yeah, that was my first introduction to it. Why is there, why, why Manchester? Manchester. I think what happened was when my grandparents were coming over for work, my grandm was a nurse. they flock to the big city so it was either London, Manchester, Birmingham and Manchester is like a huge city

it's like the third largest city in the UK so Manchester just so happened to be the place that they you know settled and started a family How old were you when you started actually singing? I think I was round about I've been always singing from like a toddler but round about like seven

I was really getting into it poetry used to like write my own responses to songs that I heard on the radio like say if I heard like an R&B song or a hip-hop song I'd be like okay well what would I write in a response to this like an usher record or an old school reggae record and I'd like write my own version in response that's like a really classic um it's like a a classic exercise for songwriters and so few songwriters actually do that when you're when you're looking for something to write that's a that's a really astute thing to do someone ever tell you to do that or you just inherently did that just inherently did it it's like especially when i was like hanging out in my granddad's um record store i used to hear the reggae

music and the rhythms um and then i would just sometimes i would even just write or write pop songs over the or sing pop songs that I'd heard on the radio over the reggae beats. So kind of like my own little remixes and just like experiment that way. But nobody ever told me to do it. I was just like, okay, cool. Maybe this idea will go with it and just took it from there. Did you write? You were saying you wrote poetry, but were you actually sort of, I guess at that point

you're writing songs, wouldn't you, you know, were you, because you're singing along to stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So basically, we started. with the poetry and I wouldn't do it to any backing track or music or whatever. I just write down things that would just come to my mind. And then just made sure that, you know, the lines would rhyme and, you know, there was some sort

of structure. And then it turned into the songs after that. But I didn't really think it was a thing, you know. I didn't think songwriting was a thing that I could, that I was doing, if you know what I mean? I didn't, you know, at the time as well, when I'd listen to artists, I'd just assume that all the artists wrote their own stuff as well. So I didn't know songwriting for somebody who wasn't an artist was actually a thing or could be a career. Well, at that point, did you think, I mean, you were only seven.

So I guess if you thought you were going to be an artist. But did you aspire at that point already, like wanting to be on stage? Did you want to perform the songs? When I first started, I knew that I'd just love to sing along pretty much. And it came to the point where, you know, I was when I was young, I was super shy. you know and there was I remember one time my mum um you know there was like this local like audition to you know to do something that came up and then my mum brought me along to the audition and I was so shy that I didn't even want to go in so then after that my mum was like wow she's super shy and you know I had you know didn't really want to interact with the other kids and stuff like that

so after that she like was like right cool we're going to find like a local like youth centre or a dance class or something just so you can interact with other kids you because I was just like painfully shy, like to the point I would be like in tears like, no, no sort of thing. So then I started going to these like weekend classes where you could like sing, dance, act. And it was just like kind of like just hanging out with other people who, other young kids who were into music and acting and just wanted to play sort of thing and hang out. So then after that, that's when I started, you know, getting into, you know, finding my confidence. And then I was like singing as part of like a little choir and, you know, and then every time I would like get,

like a solo part of was just like one line. I'd be like choke up and then be like, oh no, I can't do it. I can't do it last minute. So the buildup was like such a thing. Do you still get stage fright? Yes, definitely. So that's why I was like, wow, I so can't be an artist.

Because I like the idea of bringing songs to life. And I like the idea of like being able to dance and sing along to songs. But then if I feel like all eyes are on me, then it really just like, Yeah, stops me in my tracks. I mean, you've released music, though, a lot of music as an artist, still. Not a lot. But you've released some music as an artist. There's not a part of you that really enjoys at least the recording part of it.

To be quite honest, I like the idea of it. But then when it comes to it, even now, like as time's going on, even when I'm in the studio and somebody says, put some be, these down or can you do this, lay down some vocals. It really still makes me super nervous. So that's why all my sessions are, you know, with artists or with amazing vocalists. So even now, I kind of like get sweaty palms and think like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And everyone's like, Jim, it's just a demo. It's fine. It's just an ooh. It's just a BV. Yeah, you can always delete it. I mean, it's not a different generation when it was to tape and, and each roll.

pounds or whatever it would cost for, you know, or I guess 150 pounds to buy a, you know, a real feel of tape. Like, now it's just digital. Definitely. You've got all the plugins. I'm like, right, come on. Put Altaboy on my voice. I need a foreman.

Make me sound like a man. I'm like, make me sound like Barry White. Yeah. Okay, so what gets you from, you know, you have this stage fright? You're in Manchester. what puts you into a place, I know you went to City College in Manchester, right? Yes, yeah. At this point, you knew you wanted to do music at some level, right?

Because it wasn't that, didn't you study music there? Is that what it was? Yeah, so it was more, so basically when I, after stage school, I really liked acting and dancing and, you know, the whole thing about performing and being around music, as it were. So when I left after that and when I left school I kind of like was a bit of limbo because I was like Oh shit I don't know what I'm going to do I haven't applied for any colleges

I haven't do know my grades at school were okay But now what to do as a career So then there was I don't know I think it was my mum who told me about like courses that she had seen in the in the newspaper But there was a music tech course And then I had already enrolled to do like an acting like do acting at college.

But then when I went to the college, I started, you know, did a couple of days at college and then realized that the acting that they were trying to teach you wasn't the same as what you saw on like TV or in the films. It was like, pretend to be a tree or pretend to be. And I was like, I don't know if I wanted to do this. It's not the, do you know what I mean? Like the acting that I knew and loved,

it was like the things that you see on the film, do you know, in film? So I was like, yeah, I don't know if I want to pretend to be a tree today. I don't think this is for me. So I was like, I kind of like dropped out of college. Then totally was in limbo, didn't know what to do. And it was my mom who had seen like a course that would, like, advertising the newspapers then about music tech and music business and music,

you know, just anything to do with music. So then I went and it was really late and I finally managed to get onto this like part-time course. It was like two days a week, city college and it was music tech and then you did loads of different things like to do with music. And I figured, okay, cool, two days a week. It's not too bad. And then the other times, you know, I am the other three days that I wasn't in college,

I worked part-time, like in a clothes shop. I was like, yeah. And then if I'm working a clothes shop, I can get free clothes. And then my life's set, you know, I can do a couple days at college to keep my mum happy. And then I've got all these nice, fresh gams. So that's my life. So, yeah, it was from the music tech course that I kind of like got into it. And I thought, oh, and then I discovered that there were other elements to.

the music business and to music as well. And that's when I got into production and into like little bits of songwriting. And I was still doing that myself at home, you know, still just writing and trying to just network with people. So yeah, that kind of like started me on my journey to, you know, get to be part of the music industry. That's so it were. Would you write songs at home alone with no instrument? Did you play an instrument? Do you, you know, how would you write a song at home alone at that point?

So first of all, I would play other backing tracks, other songs that I'd heard on the radio and just hope to find a section of the, section of like the outro that just didn't have any singing on it and try and take that part and use that. Or I would just tinker around on like this really crappy, like, toy kind of keyboard. And, you know, it had all the letters like written on the order. the keys so I could remember because I was like, I'm not trained musically at all, but I kind of like would just

teach myself basic chords that I could just play really slow along and then write over that. Yeah, so that's how I first started. That's what I'd write to. Is music tech production and engineering or is music tech so you're

actually learning before you really know how to even write songs professionally? You're learning how to record it, right? So it's kind of like, it was, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I knew that this, this music thing, music industry thing seemed fun. I knew that I enjoyed listening to music and I enjoyed that, I enjoyed singing along to it, and I enjoyed a bit of poetry as well.

So I was like, kind of like trying to buy myself some time by doing this course. And then it just so happened that you learned other skills on this course as well. So it was music production. and you got to learn how to use the software. Then there was, you'd learn a bit about the business as well. So the, you know, intellectual property and the legal side as well. And then you would get to, like, do some performances. And then as part of the course as well,

they would take you on these, you know, take you away to, like, these music conventions. So we got to go to, like, to Cannes, to Meadem, which is like this music convention that they do every year. So you get to, you know, learn about lots of different, sides of the music industry. How much of that changed how you started writing?

Does that make sense? Yeah, I think that sort of... Or did you get together at all? You know, when you start thinking, oh, this is how you record, so I'm going to write like this, or this is intellectual, you know, I remember

somebody saying, I've said this in a couple interviews, but I remember an A&R person who we're both friends with, said, you know, I'm jealous of you guys because you guys can create an asset every day, which is something you learn from when you start studying intellectual property, that this is property. You know, did studying that stuff at all effect you choosing to be a songwriter versus you choosing to be an executive? Yeah, I think it, I think it did. I mean, I didn't know.

know the depths and I didn't know the amount of layers, the extra layers that go into the you know, the making of a song and the actual music industry. I didn't know there were other things that you could do within the industry that wasn't just performing.

So it did affect me in a way that I kind of learned that songwriting these little things that I was tinking around with at home actually were a thing, you know, you could turn it into a tangible thing that was worth something, you know, that was precious and it had the ability to make an impact on somebody else's life, you know, because even on the course, you would, you know, really look into, like,

the lyrics and you would really look into the instrumentation and the composition of a record that, you know, when you're listening on the radio, just like, oh, yeah, I like that, like, you don't really, you don't overthink as to why you really like a song. You're just like, oh, yeah, I like that lyric or I like that melody and that's it. You sing along and don't think about it. But I think when I started doing the course, you actually look at the anatomy of a song and what it's made up off. And then how it affects other people and how you can affect somebody's mood by what you write or what you play. And then we, I think it was one day we broke down. We had to, one of the assignments was we had to take this Madonna record.

And we had to break it down and recreate it. So we had to, you know, play all the instruments, record it, do the vocal, but make it sound like Madonna. So then you had to look at, you know, try and figure out what effects they might have used on the vocal, what they might have used on the guitar. Do you mean? And then you think, wow, there's so much that actually goes into this one song. Then it made me appreciate the song more. And then, so then later on in life, when I was like creating my own music, it really made me pay attention to every single detail. And then, yeah, so I think, yeah, definitely the course and what I learned on the course definitely helped me in terms of looking.

at songwriting and creating songs in a different way. Writing at home over those sections that don't have melody and lyric over it so you can write your songs, that's a good way to write, but not necessarily a good way to show everyone the songs that you're writing at home. No. When did you feel like you had first written a song and what was it called? I think it was there was a song

it wasn't recorded very well but it was called I can be and I think I was like 13 and I think the lyric was I can be anything I want to be and it was like I can be this I could be that and it was like this thing that I was like

singing to myself and I was like 12 and I was like I can be anything I want to be it was so lame but at the time I was like yeah this is my debut. It's my debut

single mom. I mean I'm standing in the living room. Don't you kind of want to say thank you to that kid though? I mean that kid really kind of you know had this ambition obviously because the first thing that you wrote about

was ambition. Definitely. You know like you were on a trajectory from an early point that you knew you could do things, you know? It was kind of like I think, you know, early on I had this confidence that I kind of like found from not being confident if you know what I mean.

So my mum throwing me into a situation with other kids where I, you know, had to kind of like build relationships and get a bit more confident. But then, you know, you go through phases as we all still do, you know, where you feel like really confidence and not confident. Oh my God, I'm the best songwriter. Oh my gosh. I'm just terrible. Like I need to get a new job like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? part-time job oh my gosh you still have that yes definitely and I think do you know even not to even look at it as a negative because I think it's that that up and down you know in a in a healthy way that kind of like keeps you on your toes and makes you want to keep doing better do you know I mean so um you know obviously there's massive highs massive lows within it but it kind of like keeps it keeps it all

fresh if you know what I mean and you keeps you hungry for it as well as So, yeah, it's a good thing. How is it that your songs at home, you know, what's the transition from writing songs at home alone to these tracks to actually collaborating with artists or, you know, being in a recording studio? What is the transition from, you know, thinking this is something that you're doing alone to this is no longer something that you're doing. doing it along. It came from a place of like, I think it was really my mum really, because it's one of those things like I'm not really from a musical background as, as it were, in terms of like none of my family are in the business or have been, you know, writers or artists. But it's one of the things like my mum was always trying to help me figure out how to get into the industry

or do whatever I wanted to do. And then being from Manchester, a smaller city, there wasn't really, there isn't really that community and that network of people who are in the industry. There isn't really an industry in Manchester. So it was, I think, going to college, doing music tech, and then meeting other people who were interested in saying things as I was doing.

And then I've just always known that London really was, out of the UK, was one of the central hubs for music. So then I kind of like had it in my head like how am I going to get to London? So when as I was growing up like as a teenager and stuff, I always knew London was super expensive. So I was thinking, right, I'm on my music tech course where how am I going to get closer to London? Because I can't really afford to live in London, but how am I going to do this? So then at the end of my music tech course there was like this top up degree. So you could go to a college, choose a university, sorry, where you could do like a top up degree.

to change your diploma into a degree. So at the time I was a bit like, I don't really want to do a degree. I just kind of like want to get my part-time job with my clothes shop and, you know, get nice garbs and just start my life sort of thing. But then I realized that you could do a top degree in Buckinghamshire, which is, and the campus was in Highwickan, which was 40 minutes from London. So I was like, right, this is my plan.

I'm going to go and get accommodation. near the university. And then I'm going to do that course two days a week. And then the rest of the time, I can commute to London. So pretty much I chose that course to do a top-up degree, not because I wanted to do the degree, but just so I could get accommodation that was close to London. And so from that, networked, met people on my course, on the university course,

and they would introduce me to different producers and stuff who they knew. I was like, just introduced me to any producer or writer or artist that you know. and then a friend of mine, Leslie, introduced me to some DJ producers called Roll Deep. And yeah, and then I started doing, my days are from uni. I would go and do sessions with them. And that's how I kind of like got into it just by working with anybody that I knew that could do music. your first your first deal

is with wind swept which is it right is that right that's your first yeah that was it whilst I was at college it was always a really cool

publisher because it was a it wasn't universal and it wasn't worn a chapel but it was you know the US equivalent

sort of pulse and stuff like that you know, it was a really strong publishing company. Did you have cuts before you got this publishing deal? Or they just heard you and we're like, there's potential here. It's so crazy because whilst I was doing my music tech course in Manchester at City College, a couple days a week, there was a guy called Simon Aldridge and he came to our college and he did like a talk on the music business.

So he was, he came from London. And he was this guy, he was coming to Manchester to do this talk. So it was a big thing. So then I was like, cool. And me and all my friends went down to this talk. And, you know, and this guy was talking to us and talking to us about the labels he's worked for and all of this stuff. And then afterwards, I approached him at the end of the talk because he was like saying, you know, anybody's got any questions, you know, come and hit me up.

And, you know, I'm going to be hanging out for a little bit. So I, yeah, approached him and asked him if I could send him some stuff. and I sent him some, you know, rough demos that I had recorded at college. And yeah, and then from there, he invited me to, you know, to meet some other people and producers in London. So then whilst I was at uni, 40 minutes away from London, he introduced me to some other producers and stuff. And then I started doing my first writing sessions there. And I got those off the back of the demos that I had recorded at college, these really rough, rough demos. And so that's how, and then he started working at Winswept, and that's how I got my first publishing deal.

It was like a development sort of deal. I had not many songs, but yeah, he kind of like would put me in sessions. And yeah, those demos were the first ones that I produced there and then started meeting people in the industry. Did people try to put you in, you know, if you grew up listening to Regan, I don't know what the first songs you started writing were. Obviously, if you're working with DJs, to begin with, there's some leeway as to what kind of music you can do with DJs. Did you, were you ever put into, oh, well, this person writes reggae music or this person writes a certain kind of music. Yeah.

Did you find that there was, I don't know, was there ever, I don't know, pigeonholding is a word when you haven't really defined somebody's career, People trying to define what kind of music you wrote before you really knew what you were doing. Definitely. Definitely. And I feel like it was crazy because, you know, I, you know, as a young black female from Manchester, you know, that's known for house music and indie music in Manchester. But then, you know, obviously my roots and my granddad's got the reggae music store, you know. But then I was absolutely in love with pop music, you know. And as, you know, as a black female young girl,

I didn't have that big diva voice, you know, that everybody expected me to have, you know, they saw a young black girl and they thought, okay, cause she's in the music. She must be able to sing all these big gospel songs. But I've got kind of like a really baby voice. It was more like I would listen to like a Britney or a Kylie and be like, oh, yeah, I can sing songs like that.

But, you know, it was just so confusing because, and so conflicting because when I was like, you know, singing on records and doing the artist thing for a little bit. It was like people are pulling you in one direction saying, oh, young black girl, you're supposed to be singing either reggae or big soul records. But then really, I was like, actually, I feel like, you know, maybe today I feel like doing like a Britney kind of song or whatever. But it's like definitely pigeonholing was like a massive thing.

And I think it was kind of like I was battling with the industry and then battling with myself as well, trying to put you in this box. But I'm like, no, but I like this music. I like this music. I like, you know, and I liked loads of different types of music. But, yeah, it's, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, I've had to really fight against and being like, no, I don't just want to do that. I don't just want to do that. Do you know, I'm into pop music or rap music or reggae, you know, so, but there was so much pigeonholing. And then it was like, on record, people would be like, oh, she sounds like a, a, a, a, a, a,

Brittany or something. But then when people saw me, they were like, oh, right, we weren't expecting that. So then you're kind of like being dragged and pulled and people telling you to do one thing, but really you want to do this thing. So that's why even as an artist, it was kind of, I realized that it was quite early on that I didn't really want to be an artist. One, I was too shy. Two, I like so many different genres of music. Three, don't really love singing on record. I like singing in the shower and singing in the room. Like if I'm in the studio,

I can sing along and be like, oh, what do you think of this idea? Doobie, do, do, bo, bo, or whatever. But then to stand on stage and be like, this is me. I don't want to do that. So, yeah, songwriting turned to be my dream. I mean, there's a few years there

where you're releasing your own music before you kind of, you know, which already, just the idea, we had this conversation with Jody Gerson, who runs Universal publishing, who I'm sure you're a clip to, you know. And we were talking about women that are writers, that people all, you know, naturally just try to push women writers into being artists, you know, which is a different thing than a lot of guys. It's like, I want to be a songwriter. Like, okay, cool, that's fine. And a woman

who says, I want to be a songwriter, it's like, okay, cool. We should make an album with you as the singer. Why is? I don't know. It's just like, and then you just, I'm just, I'm not sure. It's just like people just, I just really don't know what it is. It's just like you just, people just assume that that's just what you want to do. And then you get, you kind of like, get put on this train.

And you're just kind of like, okay, because people are telling me I want to do this. Maybe I need to run with it. Do you mean, just to try and get the opportunities as well? You know what I mean? It's like if as a woman just turning up and saying you just want to be a songwriter, it's kind of like not enough. It's kind of like, no, well, prove yourself. What else can you do? What else can you do? It's almost like you have to have about 10 more strings to your bow before somebody kind of like would take you serious. You know? And I think, I mean, obviously now it's it's changing a little bit but I still feel like it is still a little bit like that. what was it that that made people start seeing you as a songwriter and not as an artist I think what it was even when I was when I first started off writing with like writing for and with like rappers at first first of all I would like write hooks and then they would be like cool we'll write a chorus we'll do the rap's you do the chorus and then I was like okay cool

I've got this idea for a chorus okay I suppose I have to sing it because I'm the only girl in the room. So cool. So I ended up singing a few. And then there was a time when I would kind of come up with ideas or suggestions for lines for some of the rappers. And some of the ideas, they would be like, oh, that's not sure about that. But then a few of the ideas, they would be like, oh, actually, that's really cool. And then they would incorporate it into their bars and it would sound pretty good. So then I kind of like kind of slowly got into writing there and some of my suggestions were actually taken serious. But obviously if I was to rap them and, you know, my Mancunian accent as a female saying all these gangster lyrics, it would be really weird. But

some of them, they would like be like, oh actually, maybe I'll try that one and like incorporate into their own bars. And then, you know, I think it was kind of like taking a bit more serious. And then I would be like trying to slowly help them a bit more, you know, and then my suggestions were taking a bit more serious. So it was cool. Yeah, it seems like there is a period where you start going from, you know, you're looking at your discography, that you're an artist. And there's, there's some time between that and when you're a writer.

What do you do in London to survive during what it seems to be about four or five years? being an aspiring songwriter versus being somebody who's really starting to write songs people know. Yeah, it was, you know, because to be quite honest, it wasn't really a thing that, you know, I didn't know many songwriters when I came to London at first, you know, and especially in the scene that I was operating in, like, you know, with rappers and stuff, it wasn't really looked upon.

You don't mean, it's, it was kind of like strange. I didn't really have anybody around me he was kind of doing it, if you know what I mean? Do you know, I didn't know many songwriters. And if I did, it was only people who I'd heard about in like maybe America or something, you know, like the Sardines and, you know, the Sears and people like that. So I think during those years where there's a bit of a gap, it was kind of like where I was kind of like battling with,

I don't really want to be, I don't really want to be an artist. but I really want to get my songs heard. So I was kind of like battling and then getting dragged and pulled in different directions. Oh, yeah, you do pop. Oh, that's going to be a cool angle. A black girl who does pop music. Oh, no, but you're supposed to do this. No, you should do reggae music.

So I kind of like spent a few years just battling, being confused and trying to find my own voice, as it were. And then from there, I kind of like would, it was just kind of like a lot of network. And I was working in a bar. I was working in nightclubs, in bars and stuff, because, you know, trying to operate in the music industry, but then not having an income, you know, it's like, what you're going to do? Do you know, my parents, like, would pay my rent for however long,

but they never told me to get a real job or anything. They were all like, keep your eye on the prize, keep your eye on the prize. And if we have to keep paying your rent for you, then it's fine. You know, they're not super rich or anything, but they just supported me whilst I was in London and just kind of, like, believed in the whole dream. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's,

super hard, you know, especially being in such a huge sitting, it's so expensive. So I would like work in part time in a bar or in a nightclub, finish at like five in the morning and then try and go to sessions at like, like, midday. And I'd do that like every day sort of thing, just hoping to, but I loved, I actually loved it, you know, just create your music. And then it kind of like helped me to love music as well because I didn't have to rely on music to make money, you know, because I already had my part-time job and as long as, and my parents had already said that they'll help me with my rent on the months that I couldn't.

So then I was able to just throw myself into music for the love of it, you know, because I wasn't trying to worry about money. So that was kind of what it was. I was just trying to survive in London for all those years, pretty much. Yeah. I mean, those are really good parents. You know, the real shift, you know, a lot of times you try to tell people who are songwriters that your job is to also be an entrepreneur.

Nobody's waiting to cut your songs. Nobody wants to cut your songs. You know, artists have other things to do. They also want to go to a bar. They don't want to be in a studio. It's hard to explain to people that nobody wants to cut your song. Nobody wants to admit that, but nobody wants to cut your song. It's so true.

I don't care who you are. Nobody wants to cut your song. And you have to create opportunities. Yes. The big change obviously is you know, you're an artist, you're an artist, putting out music. And then the first thing that comes out where it's, you know, there's sort of a slew of songs that come out, but it starts with Jess Glenn, who really blows up because of the relationship you guys, create.

it seems like you guys your careers end up being hand in hand. Can you explain how you met Jess and what the process was to going from, you know, you're an artist and then here's somebody that you're collaborating with. She's now the artist and then everything seems to start to click. Yeah, it was actually super crazy because I had spent all these years, as it were like, working part-time in a bar and trying to collaborate with loads of different, artists and you know rappers and just trying to be in the scene sort of thing and be part of the industry so when I was doing stuff with these rappers and you know we released a few things with Roll Deep

there was a college in east London who had heard some of the music that I had co-written for some of the rappers in the UK and they were inviting different writers and different creatives into onto the course to talk about their story. So it was just, you know, so they invited me and they were like, cool, we know that you're unmanaged, you're unpublished, you don't have a record label, but we've known that you've featured on a couple of records and you've been, you know, collaborating with some of these rappers. And it was in East London that this college was based.

And the rappers who I've been working with were also from East London. So it's pretty much they were just reaching out to people who were part of their scene. So whilst I was on the course, you know, I was just talking about being kind of like just trying to wing it and get myself through the industry and network and collaborate. And at the end of the course, yeah, a student approached me and was like, you know, I'd love to send you some stuff. And the student was Jess Glyn. So she was on the course. And so she sent me a link to some of her music. And it was a SoundCloud link. And I remember listening to and being like, wow, you've got a really good voice.

And I thought to myself, wow, you sound so much like Natasha Beddingfield. Do you remember Natasha Beddingfield? I thought she had such the same tone. And I was like, wow, you've got such a strong voice. And, you know, small, slim, like, red-headed girl just was like, oh, hi, yeah. And she was kind of like came into the class, into the talk really late as well, sat at the back, kind of like, moody. But then approached me at the end as I was walking out. And from there, you know, she was working part-time as well

for this drinks company, like selling like Yeagermeister that I was working part-time in a bar. And any free time we had, we would just meet up in this studio in London and in this basement. And we would just like listen to music and write and just hang out really. And we just did that. And then at the time, she spoke to me and she was like,

oh, do you know, I really want to, she was toying with a few. opportunity. She was like, oh, you know, this producer's hit me up and wants me to be in this girl group and this other one has told me that I should do an EP and, you know, and at the time, I was like, oh, I don't know. I don't know what you should do, but, you know, your voice is huge. I'm not sure. I don't have anything set up, but, you know, I really do think, you know, I believe in you and stuff, but I'm not sure what the plan is yet, but I don't think you should be in a girl group and I don't think you should just put your own EP out independently. So we're just like kind of think of ideas. And at the time, I had collaborated with, just before that, I collaborated

with this rapper called Michael Payne. And I, you know, he had, we'd done this collaboration record. He was rapping. I was singing. And we did a show together. And it was this independent publisher came down to, um, his independent publisher came down to see the show. And he introduced me to the owner and we spoke and stuff and then I told them about um jesclin and um they offered me like a jv you know just cut to a long story short they offered me a jv and whilst I was on the course I learned about publishing companies and stuff so I started this tiny jv with books and then we put in an offer to sign jesklin that was going to be my first person that I was going to sign and then it was crazy you know because I wasn't like really set up or anything at the time but I knew that

But, you know, I really wanted to work with her. I thought she had potential, but just didn't have a team behind me. So then what happened was putting this offer, you know, just it was a big offer to me. But, you know, in real terms, it most probably wasn't for a huge deal. And then off the back of that, her lawyer introduced to another publisher. And they came in and blew my deal out of the water. So they offered, I think, 10 times more. And I was like, oh, my gosh.

And then the lawyer was like, well, if you can match this deal, then we'd be able to go with you. And so I went back to this, you know, new relationship that I built with this publisher. I was like, come on, you know, can we just push it up a little bit? And they weren't able to. So then off the back of that, she ended up signing to this other publisher. So I was like, oh, gosh, you know, so sad sort of thing. But then, you know, off the back of that, she, you know, then got a manager, got a record deal and all of that. And then they called me in, the team called me in and said, you know,

the work that you've done with Jess and all the songs that you've done with Jess, you know, has helped her put her package together, and that's enabled her to go off and get a record deal. And, you know, now she's got a big team and stuff. And we'd love for you just to keep writing together. She absolutely loves working with you. So we ended up just writing pretty much the majority of everything together. So to get to sign her, but then we've, you know,

literally all this week I've been in with her again, working on a third album. So, yeah, it's absolutely incredible. And kudos to her team and to her for recognizing what got her in that position. I think more often than not, especially the careers where you guys were at. A young person develops another artist or not necessarily a young person, but somebody who doesn't have the credits develops a not credited artist. and that artist gets a deal,

the label and the managers almost all of a sudden say, okay, well, let's see how big of a co-writer we can put them with. Yes. Or how big of a producer. Yes. You know, that's really unusual for, that's how it's supposed to happen. Yeah.

Is it a recognition of the work you guys were doing. Did any of the songs you wrote before the deal become any of the songs that we know now? Well, there was some that became, there was a couple on her first album that, you know, became like soft releases and they ended up on the first album that, you know, went to number one and stuff. But they were written before, you know, the deal. And they ended up staying on the album. But then, yeah, it has been a massive journey. And there has been some battles as well. But, you know, to be quite honest, it's, it's testament to Jess actually as well. Because she's always been

fighting for the fact of, no, no, no, we're going to do this together. We're going to do it together. because there has been times, you know, obviously when, you know, opportunities that do come up and I'm like, hey, you know, you'd be silly not to do that. And she's like, no, I want you to be in there with me. I want you to be in there with me, you know, which is, you know, and obviously as a new artist, you know, she's in a new situation, new deal, new team, you know, scared of rocking the boat. But then kind of like stuck to her guns as well. So as you say, our careers have gone in tandem. But she has also. thought for that to, you know, to remain that relationship as well. And then obviously, you know, you do have to keep delivering as well, you know, but we have got a really amazing relationship. And as you say, it is uncommon sometimes to, you know, not be just kicked to the side. She's had a lot of success in the US, but there's a different level to what she means in the UK.

You know, and it seemed to, it's an interesting thing when an artist becomes so massive in a certain region. And it's not that it's a matter of not success. It's massive success in the U.S. But she's so much more successful in the U.K. What is it that, what's the difference between a hit song in the UK and one in the U.S.? Why is it that certain artists are so much bigger in one? one time. It's crazy, isn't it? I think it's just because I think we, we, although the UK is kind of, you know, a lot of people know UK music, we are still just a tiny little island compared to the US,

you know, there's just less people, less, do you know what I mean? So a hit in the States is, wow, it just blows it out of the water for the UK. But then UK is obviously being our, my hometown and stuff. It means, you know, the world to have success here, you know, starting here as well. But yeah, it's so, so different. And actually, the culture's different. The industry's different. Do you know, the way that we can see music's different, you know, and obviously, you know, we have the big stars that come out of the UK as well that translate. But sometimes like the, there's this, especially with rap music, there's this kind of like language barrier because the slang's different. You know what I mean? Obviously, you can have people like Drake coming over and then he'll say,

you know, he'll pick up some of the UK's like and say stuff like mandam and stuff. And then everyone's like, oh, okay, cool. But do you know what I mean? It's like, it's different, you know, I think just the culture's different sometimes. Do you think now because of having worked with Jess, it's almost the exact other side of the spectrum than reggae? I mean, she has some, like, some of the rhythm of the part of her. It couldn't be further from... It's so far away. You know, do you find that it's now hard to get into

some of the other rooms that you were initially put into? Do you know what, to be quite honest, it's one of those things that I have to kind of always be aware of because I never kind of like want to be pigeonholed too much. You know, I will go from, you know, there's a few artists that I kind of like focus on their project. I'll get like, so Jacks Jones, I like focus on his, his project, you know, we do multiple records together.

Then there's like Ray, who I do a lot of, you know, she's a newer artist, but an amazing songwriter as well. So I'll do a lot on her project. And then there's the Jesses. But then I try and keep it actively, I try and keep moving in between genres as well, you know, so I'll do like the Sean Pauls and the Wiz Kids Afro beat. and then I'll do you know like Yeba

and you know just keep it keep it moving trying to keep it a bit fluid and then I'll you know go back to back to my roots as it were and try and do some reggae bits or some rap bits and stuff but I think as a songwriter

you do have to kind of like plan and you know have kind of like a game plan as to not get pigeonholed as well Jeff Jones is one of the other ones that you have a long now you have a lot of songs

And same with, you know, Jess, where you're able to develop these relationships with artists where most writers, I think, end up doing, you know, a session with this artist or a session with that artist or a session with this writer. But you go in and do full albums. Or you go in and you do, you keep coming back or they keep coming back to you. What is it that creates that kind of relationship that's a little. bit deeper than one-offs. I think what it was is I'm super aware of it as well. I'm a bit like, it's like when we did

a song together, Jacks Jones, myself and Ray. So I had worked with Jacks Jones and Ray separately. And they're both signed to the same label and they've got the same A&R. But they'd never worked together. Then I had a session that was coming up with Jacks Jones. And then the A&R

you know, you know, it'd organise a session and then I was like and then because Ray is on the same label and we needed a vocalist as well it was suggested let's all just do it together so we did that session we came up with a song called you don't know me which was you know pretty successful here in the UK and then you know we you know we were knocked off number one by you know it didn't go to number one it's number three because Ed Shearing had come out and he took brought his album out and number one and number two.

It's like, we would be like, oh my God, oh my God, it's going up, going up. And then all of a sudden, Ed Shearing came out with an album, number one, number two. We were like, oh, my gosh. But anyway, it was still, it still did really well. And, you know, the song that we made in that session was,

was brilliant and super fun. But then it went, you know, we had this success with this one record. And then it was almost like a year. And nobody had even suggested for us even to get back in the room. And I was pretty much, I called the A&R one day. And I was like, hey, so that song, we did it pretty well.

How's about, would it be crazy if maybe we should get in and do another session? He's like, oh my God, yeah, of course. That's a brilliant idea. I'm like, well, yeah, maybe we could try something. But it's so crazy, the amount of people who wouldn't even suggest, you know, get in and do another record, maybe, try another day. You know, that went well. But it's even sometimes the obvious sessions that people don't even think of.

So I'm always, the reason why I like to do a lot of sessions or more, multiple sessions with one artist. It's kind of like you get so many more chances to be a bit shit. Do I mean? It's like not every day. Not every record you do then has to be amazing. You can you get multiple chances. It's like auditioning, but you can get another chance and another chance and another chance.

So I always tend to just be like, okay, cool, that session went well. Should we put another one in? And then that's so it's happened. And then you just create your kind of like team or you click, you know. So for instance, me and Ray, we just write anyway for other people, you know, and we've done so many other bits together for like Madison Beer and loads of things that we'll just write together

because we've got this chemistry and you know some days might have quite a few bad days but then even if we have a couple of good days and that's good. So yeah, that's why I love to do multiple sessions with people. Yeah, it's so obvious and yet nobody does it.

It's crazy. It's amazing how many times you have a song that matters to the artist and they just don't seem to connect the dots. Instead, it's like, well, who's next or who else can be asked? Yeah. And who's the next hot thing or whatever? It's like, even when I worked with, so I worked with an artist from the, from the US called

Yeba, we did a song called Evergreen, did a song called Evergreen. So we did that, that session came about because I was sent a clip of her Sofa Sounds. and she was coming over to the UK and, you know, looking for, you know, they were putting some sessions together for her. So I was suggested to do, I was sent this YouTube clip and I was like, oh my gosh, her voice is amazing.

You know, she was unsigned at the time. I was like, yeah, definitely let's get in. It was Easter. So I was supposed to go home to Manchester, which is three hours away from London to be with my family because it was Easter. And then they were like, cool, but she can only do this weekend.

So can you work with us? okay cool we'll do one day so we went in and i was like absolutely blown away blown away by her so then the next day that we're due to go in i just cancelled my trip to easter and spent it just in london you know just on my own and then we were in the studio and i was absolutely blown away by her you know she's super creative her voice is amazing the story's incredible like and absolutely love this song so me george reed a producer and yebber went in did this song evergreen and then yeah we haven't worked together since. But she's amazing and it just so happens that I suppose after that she got signed and then she's done so many amazing collaborations and then people just get

busy as well, you know, so I don't even think with that it was a case of intentional. It's just that it's crazy, isn't it? You do some, and that's one of the, my favorite songs I've ever written and, you know, but it's crazy, isn't it? You just sometimes just don't do multiple sessions. But we've hung out like when I went over to New York, we hung out. We hung out. and stuff, but yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? The obvious sessions you think to do. It's shocking. And obviously, he's one of the more hyped artists in the last few years.

Her deal is obviously massive. And there was a lot of people talking about it. But, you know, I hope they go back to you because that is a good song. The hurt that you get when you try to sign someone that you really, want to sign and then you don't you don't get them luckily you and just ended up you know becoming collaborators yes you still had this jv and it gets you the bug to want to sign people throughout all this your brain is working in both the business side and the creative side talk a little bit about the journey of the business side from once you tried to sign Jess

till now because most writers don't have the scenario you have. Yeah. To be quite honest, with that, it's kind of, I was super inexperienced. It was my first thing straight out of university. I'd heard about publishing companies and record labels and setting up your own thing that, you know, even in high school, insight now, I know that it was the right thing for Jess to do in terms of having a team around her and the publisher and management and everybody that she has now. It was amazing for her and for me as well, you know, and to have that to have that team and to be able to bring it to the levels that that it has gone to, I wouldn't have been able to do that at that time,

you know, on my own as like a one-man band sort of thing. So to be quite honest, it's a massive learning experience. But as you say, it gives you the bug to something. it gives you the bug and then, you know, especially as time went on and then having more, you know, doing more trips to the States. And then you meet other people, you know, like yourself and, you know, there's the Beny's and there's the Jenna Andrews and all these people who you meet and then they've got other things going on as well. And you're like, actually, because in the UK, they're like, oh, no, no, no, you can't do that. You can't do that. You have to do this and you have to focus on this. But then when you go to places like the States, it's like, of course you can do it.

got creatives who are A&Rs and who've got their own thing and there's, you know, the Evan Bogarts and stuff. And then you're like, oh, actually, this is a thing, you know what I mean? You hear about, you know, companies that have started off from nothing, from scratch. And then, you know, with a bit of a dream and a plan. And it becomes something, you know, so I've been super inspired by when I make these trips to L.A. and I'm surrounded by other entrepreneurs who are also creative, you know, and it does actually give you the book. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, part of it as well as having the confidence and knowing that you know actually everything has to start from somewhere so um after that situation with jess that's why i decided to focus and you know

try again and you know i was always coming across new writers and people who i admired and saw potential in and wanted to work with and collaborate with that's why and then i did my um jv with Universal called Jinseng, which I've had for a few years now. And it's building. And I just love that idea of being able to start from nothing. And then, you know, those tiny winds are absolutely huge. So now, you know, I've got, like, new artists, like I've got a new artist called Sophia Romato, his amazing singer, you know, and you get your first radio play.

And you literally get, you know, it's the biggest thing ever. You get your first sink that's tiny or, you know, your songs used in the background. somewhere, you know, for like 15 seconds. And it feels like the biggest win ever. So that's part of why I still hold on to the fact of developing my own thing as well. Because those tiny wins, you know, they are absolutely huge still. Do you know what I mean? It just makes you a dad or a mom or whatever.

You know, your ones start to have those songs that come out. It feels like it's not, you know. It really is. Building your publishing company is one part, but you're really multifaceted as an executive. You're working in our label side and you're working with the Ivor Novellos. Keep explaining those other facets. And also, the Ivers in the UK are such a big and important award for songwriters. And we just don't have that here.

So explain what that is. So it's a trade body in them. They represent songwriters and composers. And they have different committees. So they have like the songwriters committee, the jazz committee. And, you know, it's been super interested for me. I've literally only been there, I think, a month. So I'm really, really new.

And the Ivan Novello's are this, you know, they hold these prestigious award ceremonies. the ivas that they have every year. And it was always one of those things that I had looked up to and aspired to attend, you know, when I was, you know, when I first got into music and stuff, and you always hear about it. But you never thought it would be for somebody like me,

like a black female, you know, so, um, the opportunity came, came about to, to, um, you know, to, to stand to be aboard, um, to be on the board. And it was one of the things that my mum was like saying, well, why not? you know, I was super scared to even go put myself forward to say I would like to, you know, be part of it because it was all, you know, a lot older, white, middle class, upper class, classical jazz composers and

execs that were all part of it, you know, so I was actually super scared to even be surrounded or, you know, I thought to myself, well, what have I got to even say or offer? You know, I knew that there was ideas and stuff that reasons why I wanted to be on the board, but I just never thought that I would be taken serious, if you know what I mean? But it was my mum who said to me, well, why not? You know, you do represent a huge part of the industry as well, you know, as a black female, and they do need more voices on the board. So why can't you be on the board sort of thing?

So it is a super exciting opportunity. And, you know, there's always already some super interesting and important conversations that are being had, you know, and we are tackling at the moment, you know, even as songwriters and DSPs and the streaming income and stuff, which I know that, you know, obviously you've been super active at raising awareness on as well and lobbying. So, you know, it's early days for me there,

but it's something that I definitely feel strongly about and happy to be a part of. Yeah, your mom's right. It's really important that the Grammys are a similar thing. Left to their own devices, it ends up being a bunch of old white guys deciding on what the most relevant albums are. And it's just shockingly not connected. Yes. of why people listen to

and what's great is so subjective and for it to happen you know for the same old people to decide every year who gets the same award in a fast evolving industry is just stupid and you know versus somebody

yeah it's crazy five different genres you know who you know grew up listening to not the same music. You know, it's so important to have you on that board. Worldwide, that's really important, too, because it does represent songwriters the biggest music economy outside of the U.S. It represents us, too,

just like it would represent, you know, you to have the Grammys do the same thing. So I appreciate that. amazing. As a label executive, you've not taken on that role too. You've been to be a songwriter? Pardon?

Any time to be a songwriter? To be quite honest, it's been super good. It's not like I'm in the office every day. Well, nobody's in an office anyway, but it's not, you know, I mean, it's part of, I see it as part of my role as a songwriter, you know, because when you're in sessions and you are with these new

writers and new artists and artists who run maybe the second or third albums you are kind of I always put that hat on as well in terms of I don't just want to write a song and just be like okay cool leave it to your own devices

I'm also actively out there thinking cool we're in this together who else are we going to get to feature on it who can produce it whether there are any other people who we can add to this session or do I mean so I always felt like I was doing like an A&R role anyway and I really enjoy it you know the amount of times when to get your

song over the line I've like to get my own songs over the line I've had to if it was like for a house producer um I've suggested maybe the feature or I've called up an artist to be like hey would you would you jump on this do you mean it ends up getting cut and then I'm just like cool and then I'll put the management or the labels together to discuss the business side but there's so many so many times where I'm like actually I did this song. in that session, maybe you can feature on it. You know, so it's all part of the same thing for me, actually. And it's just, I feel like as a creative, we're actually in the room with these artists.

So we can, you know, we know how they operate, the music that they're into, how they really, what their strengths really are in the room. Do you know, so I feel like as songwriters, you know, we kind of do a and R as. well. Absolutely. We're going to go to our next segment. Five for five. I'm going to list five things and just tell me what comes out the top of your head when you hear these names. Let's start with Jacks Jones. Oh, nah, nah, eh. What? I like that. Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me. Do it again?

Jacks Jones. What comes to the top of my head? I'm just going to name what's on the, yeah. Okay. Na-na-e? I like it. Ray. Ray.

Sassy chic. Jess Glenn. Powerful vocals, red hair. I like that. We're going to end up doing six, so don't follow me. But your father. Football. Yeah, that's a weird one, actually.

I'm not super tight with my dad. But, yeah, football. Your mom. Powerhouse. My Rock. Finally, your fiancé. Love of my life. The best.

Yeah. Heaven sent. Yeah, with my fiancé, it's so crazy because, do you know, I know it sounds really cheesy. You know, you just don't ever think that you'd have that opportunity to find that kind of love. Because I was in like such a, before, before my fiance, say about maybe six years ago I came out of such a heavy relationship that kind of like to be quite honest I think that really helped me and pushed me into focusing on my music even more you know

I kind of like focus so hard and kind of like just wanted to shut off and then any opportunity that would come off at come around like to travel or sessions I just didn't want to be in at home so I would just like always be traveling and stuff and always just trying to find opportunities and a reason not to be at home so I think that really threw me into work and I remember it was so, it's pretty sad I was going through such an awful breakup

and then I was like a bit scared to be at home alone that I remember Jess Jess was on tour and then she was you know touring around America and Europe and stuff and it was her and all the band and then she had saved me a bed on the bus. So everybody, you know, everybody had a bunk, their own bed, but then I had my own bed as well. And it was so crazy. So they used to have to put me down as like a vocal coach or

something. Like, oh yeah, I'm part of the crew. But really, she just knew that I didn't want to stay at home alone, so she couldn't be with me, so she would bring me on tour with her. So it was so cute. That's great. I went off onto a tangent, but I needed to say that. Thank you for doing this. all the way where you are, I believe it's now about 6 o'clock, 6.15.

Yeah. You know, I just, there, again, there aren't that many people who are, who put the health of the industry

ahead of themselves at time. And anybody who's on the board of these trade organizations or any of the people who are looking out for those new artists and those new writers, those are the people that are really ushering the next generation of humans in this business that has a long history of euphemistically

complex characters. And you're helping create a community that's better than the one that you walked into and I appreciate that because we just need more people like you in it. So thank you for doing this and I appreciate you. Thank you so much, Russ. I honestly, it's been such an honor to even be invited to do it. Because as I said, I can listen to, you know what I mean? It's a huge thing. And I think it's absolutely incredible.

And I actually, I was even saying to my fiance before, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't even think I'm ready, like, I don't know. And he was like, it's fine, it's like. But yeah, actually, yeah, thank you so much. It's been an absolutely honour to be on here with you and talk. So thank you as well. And thank you for everything that you're doing as well for the industry. Honestly, it's like so inspiration and so good to see.

And you're definitely building a massive community and people all over the world as well and bringing us all together. So I feel I truly feel honored to be part of that. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist. Or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter.

And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music. and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.