And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 135: 3OH!3

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

Today’s guests are the dynamic duo from the foothills of Boulder, CO to a household name – if we’re talking house parties.Since 2008, the American electro-pop duo has rocked sold out venues, amphitheaters, and college campuses around the world, playing shows on every major continent except Antarctica (too cold). With over 15 million singles sold worldwide and three U.S. RIAA Certified platinum songs, this duo has cemented their sound with global hits like their 3x multi-platinum single “Don’t Trust Me,” which reached #1 at Top 40 Radio and #7 on the Billboard Hot 100, as well as hugely popular songs “STARSTRUKKK” (Feat. Katy Perry) and “My First Kiss” (Feat. Kesha) and memorable performances on American Idol, Jimmy Kimmel Live! and the MTV Video Music Awards. Over the past decade, they have pivoted to more behind the scenes work, having written and produced hits for other artists such as Maroon 5’s “Love Somebody,” Steve Aoki’s “Waste It on Me” (Feat. BTS), MAX’s “Lights Down Low,” Ariana Grande’s “Tattooed Heart,” and Kesha’s “Blah Blah Blah” among many others. They continued to play in front of thousands of fans while celebrating the 10-year anniversary of their RIAA certified Gold album WANT. Now, the duo is back with Photo Finish Records, where it all started – and they’re coming harder than ever. Their new single “LONELY MACHINES” (feat 100 gecs) is the first taste of much more music to come. And The Writers Are… Sean Foreman and Nathaniel Motte of 3OH!3.Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. What do musicians, Dolly Parton, Willie Nelson, Darius Rucker,

Harry Connick Jr., John Battiste, and Gladys Knight have in common? They're all sharing their love of food in southern culture on the Biscuits and Jam podcast hosted by, Southern Living Editor-in-Chief, Sid Evans. In the South, talking about food is personal. It's a way of sharing a part of your history, your family, your culture, and yourself. Join Sid and his All-Star guests as they talk about cherished memories and traditions, the family meals they still think about, and their favorite places to eat on the road. There's a new episode every Tuesday, so listen and subscribe to Biscuits and Jam

wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host. Ross Golan, with over 15 million singles sold worldwide and three USRA AA certified platinum records. These fine gentlemen have made their mark writing and performing global smashes. These are the kind of smashes that make everyone move their hips at a party. But that's not all. They've annihilated charts as songwriters for other artists, as well as, proving that

that as well doesn't make sense. They've annihilated charts as songwriters for other artists as well, proving that crafting hits doesn't happen by accident. All the way from Boulder,

Colorado, this duo has deep roots in the music community because people in the music community genuinely like them. And the writer is are Sean Foreman and Nat Madi

from 303. Oh, thank you for that lovely intro. Nailed it. About half of it is true. That's super nice, man. Maybe we should just keep the edit in there of me screwing it up so people can really see what, you know, behind the curtain. The magic, behind between two ferns over here.

Yeah, it's, you guys are, you're between one fern. Yeah, between one p.m. Why do you put one of the plants on the other side so you guys can live the dream? Man, we were on. of time crunch. I wanted to kind of dress it up for you guys because, you know, you guys are a big deal, but we did what we could, I guess. Do you guys do a lot of interviews and things from this spot? Because it looks like you've planned this. This is the first time. My wife is a journalist. She's an entertainment news host, and so she's been working from here. Oh, well, that's cool. We do a lot of work

from, because we like to go full circle. We do a lot of work from Nat's basement, just like we used to do back in the day. That's how, when we started. Sean's dropping bars down there one time. he brought his dog, Sylvie, and I don't know, very out of character for Sylvie, but she dropped about like a hot six inches of turd down there, which was cool. She did drop a dookie on that carpet, but I'm sorry about that. That's fine, dude. Look, man, it happens. Dogs do that.

Okay, so let's start from the beginning. You guys are, you guys are Sean and Nat, and Sean, you were born after Nat was born. But you guys have different parents and different lives. So Nat, I suppose you go first. Are you born in, you're born in raised Boulder also, right? So born in a little place I like to call Lincoln, Nebraska. Oh. Shout out.

But moved here when I was three. My dad is a professor. He's American, but he's a professor of French literature. And he was teaching at the University of Nebraska. I got the job here at CU at the University of Colorado. And so we moved here when I was a little kid. and yeah, I grew up here. My mom is originally French from France,

and so we kind of would spend our summers going out to France and hanging with a huge family out there and grew up bilingual. And, yeah, I mean, Boulder's a great town, man. We were just talking about it before we started recording, and it's been a great place for us to grow up and to nurture our music. Do you still speak French?

Yeah, yeah. I hold citizenship and speak French and kind of all the good stuff. Did you listen to a lot of French music? You know, I didn't, because I inherited, like, I think we kind of both have this in common. We inherited a lot of our parents. You know, our parents grew up in the late 60s and kind of with all the British invasion. My dad was at Woodstock and his music, you know, tastes are so varied from classical and jazz to all the British invasion stuff, blues and folk and everything in between. And so he was kind of like predisposed to not dig French pop music.

So it's only been recently that I've been kind of delving into it. I don't know. I think, I guess, and my mom is less, less musical and less, kind of her family is less focused on. They're all doctors out there, and so they're a little bit more scientific than creative on the music side. But I should, I should listen to more. There's some really good French music. I mean, you know, even just Serge Gansborg or some of these people who have these, there's so many cool, there's so much cool music that, you know, it feels very awesome power. that era.

I mean, there's good modern stuff too. Like even, you know, when I was an adolescent growing up, there's great rap music and hip-hop music coming out of France and Cyan's Supercru and NTC and kind of, I mean, a lot of people know MC Solar. That's kind of on the more popular side, but it's great. I mean, it's a language that you can really do a lot of things with rhythmically and melodically.

Sean Foreman. Yes, Ross. It's good to see, man. Dude, we, like, I haven't seen you in so long. How are you? I know. It's wild. Yeah, I'm good, man. I'm doing all right. I'm kind of, uh, I'm here in Boulder, but I've been driving back and forth, like caravan style with my dog just like in a way. Is your dog driving behind you? No, this dog's driving the car. Yeah, exactly. It's good because, you know, I got one of those newer cars that my dog can drive and I can take a nap, so it's easy. But, um, yeah, no,

I've been back and forth and just, you know, doing, like Nat and I making music, staying creative, but obviously just doing our best out here during this year and just figuring stuff out, man, trying to stay creative. So you are, let's do a little bit of your story too. Are you guys the same school year? Because you guys are, no, you're a year apart, right? Yeah, yeah. Actually, I was young from my grade anyways.

Yeah, Nat was 2002 graduated high school. I was 2003. Is that right? Yep. And which is crazy now. Actually, this is such a departure, but I was driving down the street the other day here in Boulder and there's an ultimate frisbee game going on as there always is in Boulder. And I was like, oh, those kids look like high school kids. And I pulled over and I looked and it was the Fairview High School team. And I was like, oh, man, I like co-started that squad. Like that was the first year I started the club team. of Ultimate Frisbee. And then I, after they were done, I kind of approached the coach. I was just like, hey, like, I had to like, I was like, listen, I started this program. And it's amazing. You guys are so good. It's come so many lengths. And she's like, oh, yeah, when did you start?

And I like, looked at, I like thought. And I'm like, 18 years ago. I'm like, that is, these kids weren't even born yet. And they're out here on this field playing. So, yeah, we're getting up there. But, yeah, we graduated a year apart. And we met. Yeah, it's funny because.

Shout out to public access television first for connecting us. Yeah, Nats 6-8, you know, for anyone listening to this, he's a tall guy. And we both kind of came up like, you know, we live in this university town. And there was a local radio station 1190, and they had a hip-hop bass mentalism. And they'd bring in rap shows, like underground rap shows. They'd bring in, you know, anything from like Jurassic 5 to atmosphere to Aesop Rock, Sage Francis. and Nat and I happen to both be into that and also like we both played basketball.

So the only times I really saw him, I never knew him personally before college, but I definitely like I'd be behind him at a show and be like, this tall guy really needs to not stand in the front row. So I think Boulder's a small town, even though we went to different high schools, like rival high schools, you kind of, you see someone around.

So that, yeah, you know, I was born here, Boulder Community Hospital and yeah I've been here went to college here I was here for pretty much 21 years straight before I moved Did did your parents do music? Yeah so I mean my dad he moved out here Sort of because my uncle his brother lived out here but also because my dad was a deadhead from South Dakota and needed to Get away from Brookings South Dakota so he I'm wearing my Grateful Dead socks actually so and in the honor of... You don't have the Olive Garden

All of Garden Dead. Oh, there it is. I literally... We had a conversation yesterday I was talking to Jared Sharf, who's...

I don't know if you know Sharf. He's that, you know, he's play guitar for S&L. He's like, he's now produces like Brock Hampton, a bunch of cool shit.

And we were talking about Grateful Dead and we're like, why isn't there a band like Grateful Dead anymore? And what is it? Like, will there ever be a jam band that works again.

And both of you guys having hippie parents, like, you know, before we get into the music, you guys do, why, will there ever be a band that just plays music for three hours in a night and just like, it's funny because you're talking to, yeah, people in Boulder. Like my neighbor Drew, shout out to, shout out to Drew. Your answer is Drew next door.

Should we grab out? He's got a jam band and they jam, you know? And a Boulder is like definitely a crunchy scene. I mean, it's funny. Like a lot of that in Colorado has transitioned to kind of like more jammy electronic acts and more jammy hip acts and stuff but it's true like at least

on the grand scale like that yeah I guess what's what's the closest like Daws or something? No if there was Mars Volta kind of tapped into a weird thing for a while and they disappeared but there's like a cult falling from it's not enough acid anymore man

I mean maybe that's the as part of it is like the kind of drugs that people do now is different than the kind of drugs people did then maybe there's something that something to do that. I'll tell you one thing though just because we're maybe in a different sort because even the Grateful Dead commercially like touch of gray was their biggest song and they weren't super commercially like a billboard you know type singles driven band or anything and I think it's funny because living in Colorado we're looking at this right now because we're actually

we're booked to play a show at red rocks here the amphitheater in June and it's like you know this red rocks you will read like someone will sell out red rocks for a week that you that maybe me and nat don't we've never heard of this person before or this band so that it's like alive and well in certain scenes you know like certain atmospheres like they'll sell out certain areas like boston is super crunchy they love jam band so there might be that undercurrent but there'll never be a band like the Grateful Dead. There'll never be a band like the band. I just think there's things that just kind of put their name on the wall and it's like, you know, you can't copy that, you know. Both you guys were into, like you're saying, atmosphere and Jurassic 5 and all this stuff,

that makes a lot of sense considering where the kind of music you guys started with. But did you guys have any formal training at all? There's a piano behind you. So like when I think of when I think of a piano you know it just like it doesn't invoke you know Jurassic 5

Charlie Tina I mean on my side I grew up I took piano lessons when I was a little kid and after a few years just didn't like the pure kind of practice

of it and for some reason didn't click I'm kicking myself now because it would have been awesome to keep I'm sure like all of us like working in the music business and producing and writing, like it's such a useful tool.

And I can bang my way around it now. But I stopped taking lessons and then came to guitar. My dad had always played guitar growing up, and we just kind of played as a family and played around. And that was, I learned organically, never taken any lessons again, probably should, but can play guitar. And then what kind of was the bridge for me into producing

and producing, you know, all of our music over the years was getting some turntables. And when I was 18, as a graduation, and present and really getting into like first off kind of turntableism and spinning records and also scratching and stuff like that and then starting to record that um but i had like a copy of my mom got a cd burner back in the day we were like one of the first families of the cd burner so i'd be slang and mix tapes and kind of not of our own music but of other stuff and then it came with a a free copy and it's actually what we used for some of the finished vocals on on some of our early

records it was called acid music actually to come back to oh yeah yeah and that was like the first die i ever had i didn't understand i would like record my turntables and sample from my turntables but i didn't understand that you could put things on a grid and like actually i've haven't followed tempo so all my first beats were just i guess that's the shuffle that you look for these days in some genres of music but uh but yeah that was the bridge for me and and for me i guess it's it's just kind of an example, a broader example of just that element of fun and creative fun and just kind of creative flow being, you know, what's fun about learning something and learning instruments and learning how to produce music and learning how to write music was all based around that, that just

having fun with either on your own or with homies or, you know, with people to this day, we do a lot of songwriting sessions, I'm sure, as you do. And as Joe does, where it's a blind date and you've never met the person. You got, you know, you got a few hours to write, but you kind of just try to catch a good vibe and have fun and work on music. So that's kind of where my quote-unquote training comes from. It's kind of crazy because Nat, after all these years, he only knows really one song on piano. Oh yeah, I was playing it. Hold on. Let me see if I can get it. I think it's here. Hold on. There it is. There it is. That's beautiful. No, I was actually, I forgot how to play it, but I was playing my house earlier. I just,

When I walked in his house, he was playing my house. I was just like, that's cool. Ross would love if he played that for him. I just was reminded that you wrote that man. It's a great song. It's a banger. That is a fact. So, acid, the program is anybody who's old enough to remember that, that really is kind of like the first thing where you could click in samples and it was like working on a grid.

And it sort of is the first kind of. way people produced. I have a precursor to Ableton too, because it was like cheap. I remember we got it for free. It came with the thing and it was like user friendly. Yeah. I mean, it was user friendly enough that you know, two guys who are athletes

started making music together. Are you talking about us or call it? I know. I was assuming you two. I mean, I guess here's the thing is like, how do How do two guys who are musicians, or who are athletes, who are doing music on the side? What kind of, what situation are you in where one of you is like, you know, let's make music together? How did it go from you to knowing of each other and not blocking your view?

Well, we were sitting beside each other in a physics class. And I kind of, this was at the university. I was a sophomore. He was a freshman physics 2010. I dropped my pen. It was like a romantic comment. Yeah, we both went down to grab it and our hands touched and we're like, oh, yeah, this guy.

Oh, hey. No, you know, I think I kind of grew up in, we grew up listening to the same music like we were talking about with the hip-hop stuff, but on the same, like, side while he was sort of like on the turntables and stuff, like I was in the bedroom next to my older brother who also it's very into you know turntabalism uh scratching his friends would come over they'd put on instrumentals and freestyle and stuff and like to me i was like i want to be good enough to get in that room like i want to be in there and like rap battle his friends so i just spent time like writing raps i actually like i was way more uh sort of raw in the sense of like what i was recording on

i had the i had the tape recorder with the left side of the headphones like as the as the mic like and you would just like, I'd play the song in the background, like the instrumental, and I'd wrap into the headphone. And that was like how I did, like, the first songs that I did. And I remember one of my, I saved up money and bought a boss sampler. It was just like the one that has like eight pads or something on it. And I would just sample in. Like I would go to, there's this record store called Bart's CD seller. And on the second story, there was just, you could go through records and listen to him and I would just dig for like samples and stuff and actually funny enough the guy who worked up there is this guy DJ Vajra ended up winning the DMCs like a million times to the

point where they disqualified him and he had to become a judge like but he was the guy up there and like it's just like a weird microcosm of like Boulder and I would dig up there get samples and then me and my friends were just freestyle so instead of like playing the piano guitar, stuff like that that I picked up later, I would just spend time freestyling, and it wasn't a thought about like, this is Meanston ends. Like, well, it kind of was because I was like,

I just want to be better than my brother. And you guys ended up battling. I went to, it was the Players Club. At the Players Club, there was a local hip-hop battle and in the final. Yeah, my brother and I ended up going up different sides of the tournament to face each other in the finals,

and it was like... It got nasty. He was saying that, you should have been aborted and stuff and you guys have the same mom it was like with like literally in the rap battle you guys are that vicious yeah it's i mean battles obviously like the air it's changed a lot too like then it was like the whole idea was like not you can't pre-write like you can of course you have like things like you get good enough where you like sort of like get punch lines in your head that you work in about the person in front of you but it was

vicious man like i mean obviously i mean there were definitely things that i think at the time we're certainly not PC and stuff like that to say and uh i think you know we tried i think especially me and my brother we tried to stay off that side of things but we definitely like you dig into the person and when it's your brother like it's i mean the gloves are off like you're saying all these things about me but i ended up winning do you remember at that was my final yeah i was in i was like pretty much front row back in the day man we go to those hip-hop shows and just your hip-hop arm man oh it was so strong after a full set.

Your right shoulder, you should have used that to, what was it, like, you know, whatever Frisbee, you have like a really strong shoulder for... Yeah, man, I mean, you know, now I'm paying for it

with arthritis in the hip-hop arm, hip-hop elbow. That's like tennis elbow, but, you know. Hip-hop elbow. Do you remember any of it, Sean? I mean, you're one of the more witty people I've ever met, and it's so fun,

it's so fun writing with you because you look at lyrics from the perspective of somebody who freestyles, not from, you know, you're not in a pop session trying to write, you know, the same song that the guy in the next studio is writing. You're always going to write something that's a little left to center because, you know, that's you. Do you think of yourself, like, do you become more witty because of your freestyling? Or was that just a good outlet for someone who has your wit?

I think, honestly, I think that is my strong suit. Like I'm not going to go into the studio and out sing probably some of the top liners in there. I, you know, lyrically, I mean, yeah, I went to college for English literature and stuff like that. And I like to creative write generally. But it all came from hip hop. Like I was, you know, I was in high school with a notepad sitting there with like chito powder all over the pages from like eating spicy Cheetos, just like beatboxing. And kids are like, man, this kid is annoying. I'm like, wait, you'll see.

And yeah, the freestyle is like, I think that is my greatest tool because I think in the moment I can spin, you know, whether it's like creative rhymes or just like really sort of, I don't know, just like it's pull it out. It's like a Rolodex in my brain that I just took a long time developing. And it wasn't for, again, like it wasn't like I was sitting there playing scales being like, I need to do this so I can shred. It was like, it was just fun to do. like be in the studio and yeah i think it's funny because i think even the first time i worked with jo in the studio i think the song we might have wrote a song called milk money and it was just like yeah that sounds great yeah yeah it's just funny because it's like i think what you said it's like

i don't overthink i think sometimes like lyrics and stuff like that and even though it might not go to the right home or find a home at all it's like at least i know like it's not going to be right down the pipe like another, I don't know, just like, uh, endless love or something. No, but that's, that shows in the songs that you guys that, that you guys have written that have really reacted, they've reacted because of those moments that clearly aren't written by somebody who is sitting in a studio all day who's never had that experience. So it's not like, it's really evident that that it works. When you nail it, you nail it. And then when you don't, like other people just don't get it because they're not, they just they they they're expecting to hear the same old love song you know so they that's their

problem and it's something that i feel i mean on my side like i feel so thankful for because obviously you know we're we're friends first and foremost and then our working relationship over these years i that's one of the things i admire most about sean and his songwriting is that like it it does come from a place of that's fun that's witty that's different and that's especially like like we were talking about that freestyle kind of upbringing and that's freestyle learning of how to write songs, it's fast. And it's like, and it's not too, usually not too overthought and not too overconceived. And at the same sense, I think he's got an ability to write things that are substantive while being all of those things, while being

catchy, while being, you know, whether it be funny or sad or whatever. Gassing me up. Yeah, man. Keep gassing me up, guys. It's been a great, it's beautiful friendship. I mean, last thing I'll say in, to continue to gas you up, that feels like a weird thing to say to somebody, but I don't think of after you ever said that. I'm going to keep gassing you up. Let's go. Feels really weird. It does feel weird.

I studied jazz vocals. That was my instrument in college. And so you had to do, you learned a scat and solo, and it's really weird, except for the fact that you never run out of ideas once you get into it because you're constantly coming up with a new phrase and a new phrase. And you're like, well, no, let's beat that. or what's this, where do you go next in the conversation and how do you focus on this phrase and then that phrase? And, you know, and lyrically to be somebody who freestyles, whether they

know that they're doing that or not, it's a, it's a lyrical solo. I mean, it's just, it's just a solo that whereas you have great drummers and great, you know, guitarists and basses and trumpet players and sax players and all these people can solo melodies. It's not that different than being able to solo lyrics is just that's pretty cool that that's your instrument. But as a skill set, do you have to continue to work on it or is it something that you just now have embedded in you? Like if I ask you to freestyle right now, could you freestyle right now? I mean, it's different. Yeah, I could. I think it's different though because A, there's a couple layers to it. I just want to I want to answer these questions. And I see that in you, Ross, like working with you. And obviously the

first time I met you was at your show, I think, in Los Fila, is that wrong man? It was, remember, it was just like, I think it was like the second time you were like going through, you had your residency there. And it was just like, I remember watching that. And I was like, this is, this sounds like that, you know, like you came up with it the same way that, you know, like it felt very like, I don't know. Like, I know, like, I know obviously it took you, you probably mold over every single lyric of that a million times, but it felt like it came out the same way, like a freestyle. Like it really felt like it flowed that way.

And that's why I loved it. And I think for me, it is something that's always there. I think if you grow up playing the piano in those early stages or playing guitar, like you'll always have a sense of it. But you do need to like return to it to be confident in it. Like, you know, like I, it's second nature to me. But also I got a little jaded about the whole thing because it was something I did pretty seriously.

I mean, even though it was for fun, I still went to battles. and I would do these things. And I wouldn't just be like, you know, like the guy at the party who was just like, let me just take over this party and just rap. We did that a couple times. Well, it became, yeah, of course, it became that. But then now I kind of got jaded by it because I think maybe I had that phase where I was like, like, you know, especially being in a college town, it was like everybody is freestyling.

And I just like, I think I got like maybe not, I don't know if I felt like maybe I was above it or like it just felt really like, you'd see that group of like five people freestyling. It didn't feel as like, as special anymore in a lot of ways. Like I feel like when I was doing it, it would be like a guy pulling out a guitar and a party in the middle of a party and just like playing a song. And sometimes it's cool.

But if you're just doing it, sometimes you're like, who's that guy? Like, why is that guy always at this party? It's like when they do it in movies, it's always like old school movies and someone sits down and plays a piano, like, oh, that's so sick. I wish I was there. And then when you actually see someone do it at your,

party, you're like, I would argue a piano is, for some reason, a piano, if you're good at the piano, you're, oh, I think you could play in any atmosphere. It's great. And sometimes you catch yourself, like, with a group of friends, like, playing and singing songs. You're like, what am I doing? Well, the only thing you, what you want is you want to be at a party. At that age, what you want is, you want to be at a party where the guy just starts it who, it really annoys you. Yes. But you know that you have the skill set to just like, win that part. So you hope that some guy pulls out that guitar, sits at a piano, or it starts rapping, whatever it is. And you just wait until everyone's like, hey, Sean, dude, I've been, we were known to show up

at some college parties, and, like, all of a sudden I would start beatboxing. And, like, because there would be another dude rapping. And then I would start beatboxing because I knew that my boy could battle. Yeah, and it wasn't, like, I would have friends tell me after, like, that got really kind of crazy. Got a dark, man. Yeah, like, that's a thing. It's like, it was like, it was like a power in a way because, like, it might be lighthearted and fun and then it would turn into a battle and then i've literally my older

brother and i have had to leave parties because we've been threatened like to get like to get beat up a guy was like i'm gonna go to my car and get my knife or something like that and we're just like we've had situations it's just like okay this is ridiculous so music can be dangerous so handle it handle it with care um so what where is it where you start where you realize were you just beatboxing now where you just beat boxing at a party and sean jumps in and you're like, all right, let's do this. What is the real story? Revisionous history, I would like to think that it was like somebody would be kind of like

pseudo-wrapping at a party and then I would beatbox and then Sean and the other person would start battling and I would beat box. I mean, it did happen. I think that's how it happened mostly. Yeah. And I think for the most part, it was fun. And I think it was fun and lighthearted. but for some reason it wasn't a lot of them weren't just ciphers like and it was probably my fault

because i'm very used to the battle element of it it's not just like and by party we mean it was just me and my boy sean and my base man my parents yeah his parents i was on his boss digital 12th drag no we had that there was a party house up on the hill where that basement they had a whole pa set up in mics and stuff and it was just like i mean it was fun man it was humble beginnings with all that And then Nat and I got a little bit more into, like in college, I think we were into hip hop, but we also started like, we were like into a block party and like speaking of French like bands or music like justice, I think changed a lot of stuff for us because we were like, this is so sick. Like we want to play like it's kind of like this indie dance.

The faint was a big inspiration for us. I think they're out of Nebraska too, but they were, they just like melded a lot of like electronic but also like you know live music and we just were like we want to emulate the show on stage that has this energy but also like melds like different things so we were in we were at a couple different projects we had our rap like backpacker project which was called eight hour orphans and we did like nap produced on that and he also like scratched and then my buddy devon and i were we we wrapped although 303 in a weird way kind of came out of that in a strange way because we had a secret track on our last album that that was uh called

satem up satem up and it was like about seven minutes or ten minutes after the last track and like you just have the CD on in your car and i think you hear this whirut and we got they had a show eight-hour orphans had a show and they're like nat you want a DJ I was like yeah and maybe like we do this song at the end of the set and i think devon was like yeah but sean was all going home and then that's that was our first real performance man yeah uh how how did devon feel about you guys starting your own thing devon uh quickly uh because literally the next show we got was like dude we want that the thing you do at the end we want that we're like nat and we're like we only have two songs like that and they're like well you have 45 minutes no you got 30 minutes i think we had three songs and like so two weeks

before they're like you guys want to do a show and we're like yeah fuck it we're we're gonna have to write like 20 more minutes of material 20 24 more minutes of material and so we just wrote songs and I think that's you know I feel the time yeah and that's indicative like a comedian I think it's indicative of like how we started doing our shit for 303 it was just a was to have fun and rock local shows and rock parties and and obviously kind of for us and our friends and our families to to smile to and dance to and have fun to. And then B, like, it was just, I think in the, and recently we've come around to like a kind of a mantra for how we were doing at the time. I don't know if we were new at the time, but it was like kind of first thought, best thought, man. Like there wasn't time. We didn't have

the training to necessarily work on drafting and redrafting and reworking stuff. And so it was just like, we were listening to those bands of faint. You know, I grew up listening to Nine-inch Nails and kind of harder, Benny Benassi electronic music and Liljohn and stuff like that. And so created this kind of bastardized version of all that stuff. And, hand in hand with the stuff that we were recording and putting up on MySpace at the time, because that was like the fledgling thing and provided an incredible forum where it was really the kind of the first forum where every band, no matter how big or small, no matter where they were from, had the same forum for music.

And so that was amazingly liberating in that sense. And so we'd put that music up. And while we were conceiving the music, we were thinking about how we were going to play it live. And hand in hand, kind of, you know, both those things fed each other and that energy and wanting to make sure that the tracks would carry over. to the live show that we were rocking in our local venue or in the local party or whatever. And that was really the kind of conception of our stuff. It was just that sense of fun,

that sense of making music that was a little bit different, that had a little bit of an edge to it, that grabbed the listener in a way that was either made them smile, made them laugh, made them want to dance, made them want to fucking kill themselves. I think it's that energy that we wanted to capture and that we didn't know any other way to do it, really.

The answer to your question, Devin stopped. that was his last show live show. I mean, you know, when we're talking about Grateful Dead and live shows

and whatnot, what it sounds like is that you were more focused on let's create music that serves our live show. Let's create a MySpace that serves our live show. And it really wasn't about,

you know, the fact that you could burn CDs was more still as a business card to play live shows. It didn't seem like you guys were very aware of the

you know, sort of record business compared to the live business. Is that right? Totally, man. And I think, you know, we were both at the university and I, you know, I think we come from a little bit of a different perspective. But I was gearing up to go to medical school

and like I got accepted to med school kind of right when we went on our first tour in 2008 and, you know, halfway through the tour, I was supposed to go and it was a warp tour in 2008 and I was supposed to matriculate at med school in August. And I think it was like middle of July and I was like, this is amazing. we're showing up to places we've never been before and there's, you know, a thousand people

that are set and it's crazy. And so I ended up deferring for four consecutive years while we were like kind of during. The only time in history where someone, I went to Warp Tour and I decided not to be a doctor at that moment. Was your family supportive of that or they freaked out about this decision and what kind of medicine? Well, I mean, in med school, you kind of go and get your general education before you specify. I was interested by a few things. I got some dermatologists in the family. My grandfather and two of his kids are OB docs. And my grandfather delivered like over 20,000 babies in this town of Bayonne and southwest of France. And so like grown up with him walking in the streets in the summer, he'd be like, it's a town of 100,000 people. It's close to, you know, what Boulder is. And he'd be like,

pointing people out and be like, yeah, I brought him into this world. Oh yeah, her. Yeah. I delivered her, I delivered her and her kids. That's cool. So it was interesting. So I was interested by a few things. And to address your question about the family, I think my dad being a, being, you know, an academic and a university professor was a little bit hesitant at first just because you want what's best for your kids.

And you're faced with, like, it's a pretty polar opposite in terms of, you know, potential stability of what you're doing and kind of a guaranteed, you know, whatever income, stability of life with like a, you know, a job that is pretty on the, on the realm of, like, guaranteed is pretty far on the extreme of like nothing's guaranteed and it can be hard and touring and stuff like that. But I think, you know, we, we have had a good fortune and I think in hindsight, like the good decision making of being able to tour in a way that's positive, being surrounded by positive people, by, you know, the vibe of everything we want to do is, is about inclusivity and, and about doing it right and, you know, whether it's the local kind of stagehand at a venue in Omaha

or it's, or it's, you know, a collaborator like we've collaborated with Katie Perry or Kesha. And it's, you want to treat people well and have fun with them and put smiles on people's faces. So I think that, you know, once that vibe became clear of what we were doing, we were doing responsibly and doing good work, then they've been nothing but supportive. And, you know, ever since, I mean, even at our early shows to our later shows, like at the Fox venue, the Fox Theater here, a venue, like I've crowded. surfed over to my dad and the first like level of the balcony and like crowd surf back and shit. I mean, those moments are really some of the most amazing.

How many years did you defer? Four, man. They were very kind. Every year I was like, yeah, I'm getting a really good experience, the kind of real world experience and it's going to help me in my studies. I'll admit this. I had tryouts to fill your spot. I did.

I had a couple friends come in. Yeah, it is actually. I had my friend Will. 2006, right? Yeah, my friend Will at the time, I was just like, man, we're, you know, we had great moment. We've always, like, especially early, we just had so much momentum from MySpace. Locally, like, it just was a constant rise, and we were playing crazy shows. I mean, we were opening for metal, like hardcore acts, and then we'd go and open for Snoop Dog at the Fillmore.

And then we flew into L.A. and one of our first shows was opening for Bone Thugs and Harmony and Ventura. And it was just like this wild ride of, different and then we'd play Disney like or whatever like six flags like in the middle of the park and they're like you can't say any of the words in your song. We played like the gazebo to like six moms and like nine kids and they're like what what's going on? We played them all and I just think like at the time I just remember those years being like it's like almost living like it's over at the end of this year and like for me I didn't have that same like I always I wanted to do music. I lived in New York. I was like, this is what I'm going to do regardless, even if it's not 303. And I don't know,

like, I think my back plan was like going back to school and for English and doing like, you know, being a professor or something. But that was my goal. So I was like, I'm just going to ride, ride this thing. And it's funny. I did have some tryouts. And it was just like, I was like, this is not. I mean, not good. Well, it couldn't be replaced. Like, I'm like, all right, we do this dance move at this part. Yeah, they're not as tall. They weren't as tall. That was the problem. No, and I think that's where we come a little bit differently because I think, you know, for me, music was a pure hobby. And it kind of, that revelation that it could be a career and it could be something more than just having fun locally was progressive. It was that it took a couple years.

And I think, I mean, I'm so thankful that it did. And I think that sentiment of like, you know, this thing that's so fun for us to do really influence a lot of the music that we make and still continues to because it's like, we approached the music business without knowing anything, man. I can remember being in the studio recording our first record one, and with Matt Squire, who I would co-produce our album with, and he was like, we were listening to a song, he was like, oh, yeah, this could be your second single.

And I was like, oh, yeah. And in my mind, I didn't know what a single, because I was DJing, so I would DJ vinyl, and I knew you could buy a single, which had the Acapella and instrumental. And I was like, oh, that's sick, because then you can mix it, and it's also cheaper. So if it's, like, for someone that doesn't want to buy the whole record,

you know, it's $8. bucks instead of whatever 15 bucks and i didn't understand that like a single was like kind of the flag bear for your whole project and it was kind of like what you put on are you talking about at this point you know because i was going to ask there's you know you you guys start blowing up on my space you're playing all these big shows but the first album that you do is is self produced right before matt squire yeah and so what who says to you go go record this for real and then he's you and then he who says from that, you know, I guess I'll call it a demo or self, self-released album, like who goes from there to say, all right, now you guys are, you guys are actually like

an official, you know. Yeah. So Mike Kaminsky and Matt and Matt's school, uh, galley, I would say. Yeah, but even before that, I remember I was in school, you graduated a year before me and you went, you were in France for, uh, you were teaching in France. And I remember I called you and go, I just got a voicemail from this guy named like John Fine. Was it? Findgold. John Feingold. This company was called Findgold. And he might, I mean, shout out to John Feingold. You got us on the early part of that. But I was like, I was so enamored by the idea that someone, you know, is like, listen, like, I want to manage you and all this stuff. I almost like laughed to now. I was like, this is

insane. Because we, yeah, we had the MySpace and we were selling shows. Like there's a, I mean, there's definitely a reason why people would be enamored. by us. But then, so that sort of washed over and then we got in touch with our agent, who's now our manager, Gabe Apodaca, and then Mike Kaminsky, who managed us for a long time. He flew out to Boulder. And from there, we just started, like, the process. Like, I know we played this sort of, like, showcase here in Boulder. And at the time, a lot of labels, like Warner. Our buddy Kevin Katsasi flew out. He gave us the worst record pitch we've ever had. He's like, listen, guys.

It's a sinking ship out there. I can't tell you that signing this deal with us would be a good idea. So, and we're just like, all right, is that it? I love him. He's amazing to this day. He's amazing. But it's like, we just, I think we were in a good spot because we just, I mean, coming from the underground hip-hop world, seeing my brother, like, tour in a van and just, like,

do all this stuff. Like, we were like, we weren't desperate to sign a big deal. I think at the time there were, like, some act. There was an act out of Denver that just signed like a million dollar record deal. And we were just like, yeah, it's cool. But like we don't want to, we just kind of want to keep making our money. And Nat's going to go to med school. So like it's not a huge deal.

We don't want to like break anyone's chops to get some money. So then we met with Matt Galley in New York. He was with, he had started a label photo finish records. And at the time it was like a subsidiary of Atlantic. And he just like, he's, Matt Galley's a man. He just has so much energy and he's, you know, he comes from the agent, like the booking agent world. And this was his first sort of baby. And at the time, I think he had just had like Anthony Green and a couple, you know, like more like emo leaning or like indie type leaning bands. But he just like, I think he just got the picture from our self release, which we recorded most of that in my parents sauna on like a like a boss like what was a digital like 12 track or something.

and it sounds, I mean, it makes sense because it sounds like crap. But yeah, no, he, I mean, Galley and our, you know, our manager at the time, Mike Kminsky, and had the relationship with Squire, with Matt Squire, who had done a record that we were a super fans of in that first panic record and, you know, express interest in working with us. And so that was such a great working relationship.

And I, man, like I learned so much from working and producing and co-producing with Matt in that he, yeah, just about the recording process, about kind of the engineering process and everything and treating an album holistically, you know, which I think as an artist who produces your own record, it's so important to do that. And, you know,

they offered us a small deal. I think that, like, the bigger labels, I don't know if there was ever a concrete, like, big label offer on the table. And I think most of them ended up passing. And Matt was like, hey, here's a super small deal. He sent out the execution copies. I remember I got our family dog at the time to sign it with her paw as well.

And then there were some revisions. and they sent the contract back. You can't actually do that, bro. But yeah, man, it was straight in line with what we were. And when we were recording that first stuff, I think it was, you know, it was the same thing. It was about having fun. It was about finally being in a professional studio with, like, a great engineer, a great record producer and Matt Squire and learning so much.

And not having any expectations, really. Like, we were stoked that we were recording more finished products, refined products. And then, you know, just the ability to, like, have our friends hear that. and really no kind of vision or expectation about what could or what was going to happen. Yeah, shout up Matt Galley and Matt Squire. Good guys. Yes. Matt Squire at the time was, you know, the hottest alt rock producer and it made sense.

We've interviewed the co-producer on the, you know, one of those first singles, too, with Benny Blanco. And that really is Benny's sort of coming out party as a, as a, as a, you know, Yeah, exactly. As a producer, what is the, you know, here's this little sort of 17 year, 16 year old, 17 year old at the time. And he comes in and you guys are doing a record and then here, like, if a 17 year old came in and I've graduated college, you know, four years ago, you know, I'd be like, who is this kid? Yeah, I mean, there was a bit, he was just amazing though. I remember he took the train down from New York and he was on the train. He brought like, a little backpack in his Nord lead. And then we had...

We picked them up outside the train station. We went and picked him up. On the way to pick him up, we had gone to rent a Juno 106, which ended up being the sounds that I played on, don't trust me. And it was just his, just energy and it was so fun, man. And that's like, I think that's reflective of what the song was like.

It was just a collaborative, so much fun. And it's the same thing, like with the music that we make for everybody, it doesn't matter where you come from, how old you are, whatever. It was just like we just bonded and had fun over the music, obviously, you know, we were all staying together in the kind of the band bunk bed setup that Squire had a studio. I remember at one point it flooded and we were just kind of like walking through a couple inches of water to get to the studio, which was funny. But it was just fun and it got to be wonderful friends and have kept that relationship working with Benny. He's amazing. Yeah, I remember because I lived in New York and I met him before he came down to Maryland.

and they arranged, they're like, you got to meet this kid. Here's his stuff, Spank Rock, and I was like, oh, I know this. Like, and so it wasn't like, it was a nobody. Like, we were just like, this is wild. This is like, the production on this is crazy. And like, you know, this kid, they're like, he's like this savant. He, like plays basically, like, he plays pro tools. Like, it's like an instrument.

Like, he's just so fast with sampling and stuff. I'm like, all right, I'm going to meet this kid. So, like, I go and have, it's me, him and Andrew Luffman, who at the time was an AM. for Atlantic and is now Benny's manager. And it was just like, I remember Luffman, it was almost like a like a babysitting thing. He's just like, all right, you guys have, like Benny and I went and sat and had dinner. I think he's like, I'll be back to pick you up. And it was just like us sitting there. And like, I just, um, allegedly. Uh, it might have just, uh, I don't know. Luffman doesn't

like me telling that story, but I don't know if it's true or not. The memories get a little fuzzy. but yeah meeting him there and then just like being like nat this we got to work with this kid and he came down on the train it's just like amazing and since then we've had amazing experiences with him in different places and yeah he's always he's just a homie forever you know yeah totally um don't trust me is you know there's one thing where you've you know you guys at this point have been playing shows where you're opening for a lot of people but don't trust me puts you in like a whole other category and now you guys are pop stars. And here you're an underground like hip hop kind of like bolder, really honest lyrics, totally

fun, just having parties. And then all of a sudden you guys are kind of famous. How did you guys deal with that? It was interesting, man, because it was such a progressive thing too. I guess, you know, I think we ended up releasing that in June or early July of 2008 when we on that first real tour of ours, which was Warped Tour. And then it wasn't until the next summer that it peaked at number one on Top 40 Radio, you know?

And I think that whole time we were touring, so that whole time surrounded by friends, surrounded by homies and just playing shows that were bigger and bigger, just having fun. And I think, you know, it was never a question of like getting a big head about it or having time.

I think that because that's the character we're from. It's how we were raised as people. And then also there just wasn't really, really time to like think about it too much. I think it was all just on to the next opportunity. And because we didn't know, like I said, we didn't know anything. Like it was just every, every new thing was like, oh, we can do that now. We can do that. We can play this venue. We can collaborate with, with Katie, who we met on Warp Tour in 2008 and like had so much fun with. And her, you know, musicians started playing with us on our live show. And that's how we

kind of started incorporating live instruments into our live show and really melded it into something. And so those just came as opportunities. And I think that, you know, know. Also, like, we never got, like, recognized all that much. We were the most, like, non-pop star pop stars. We got kicked off the red carpet at the VMAs that we were playing. They're like, hey, guys, this is for talent only. We're like, all right, yeah, fuck it. We had so many experiences like that. I think even when our song was peaking at number one, we were just in this, like, super, like, divey sort of, like hotel outside, like in Burbank or Studio City or something. Like, It was just like, and we just, no one around, we were just like, we have a number one song.

What do we do? And we're just like hang out by the pool. And it's like, we got invited by our buddy Tim who worked with Nike and kind of focused on music, partnerships with Nike. And I remember he invited us, which was amazing, a dream come true for us because we're such basketball fans and grew up playing basketball. But LeBron James was putting out his documentary at the time, like in a partnership through Nike.

And they threw like a quote unquote celebrity basketball game, which again, I don't know why they invited us. but it was like Chris Brown and Chris Tucker and Common and all this stuff. And like so, and it was in the Hollywood and Highland Mall in the courtyard there. They'd set up a basketball court. And I remember they were like introducing everybody and they're like, oh, this next person, blah, blah, blah, blah, Terry Cruz.

And everybody comes out and like does a little dance. And Sean and I are just sitting there just kind of sweating bullets. We're like, oh man, what are we going to do when they introduce us? They get down through everyone. And then they're just like, all right, let's start the game without introducing us. And we're just like, you know what? That's fine. And we never, we always just thought stuff like that was funny and kind of like nice to not have to be burdened with all the shitty sides of, you know, of celebrity.

It really hasn't been ever a big issue. And also like being friends with, you know, Kesha and Katie around that time. Like it was just such a different, like our first tour abroad was with Katie Perry on her Europe tour. And just like, it was just such a different animal. Like I thought we felt like really lucky to be able to just go out and get a beer and just be sort of anonymous. but like when we were with her it was just a there was like paparazzi it was just like this whole thing and I was just like man that's not I'm not envious of that part of it at all yeah I think when you can you can say it to people a billion times but being famous is not what you want it's not

what you want to be like just under that where you get that all the perks of being famous without people staring at you while you're trying to eat breakfast if you do it out, you know, in public. 100%, yeah. You want fans to know who you are, but you don't want the non-fans to know who you are. Even the other, well, like a couple years ago, pre-pandemic, I was like out here on Pearl Street in Boulder. And we, you know, in Boulder we might get recognized a little bit more than others.

But like, I'm walking down the street and these two ladies come running down the street and they look like, you know, their 20s. They're like, I'm like, okay, like kind of excited. And they're like, hey, they're like, can we take a, can you take a, can you take a picture and I was just like, yeah, no problem, no problem. And I take the phone, I put in selfie mode. I'm like right in the middle of them and they're like, what are you doing? And I was like, oh, like, they're like, no, can you please take a picture of us like in front

of this statue? And I'm just like, I'm like, oh, wow. That was like the moment where I was just like, that is so bad, man. That's, that says everything. All right, so warp tour is something that actually doesn't exist anymore. Most of us know what it is. But Warp Tour in his prime was as big as, and probably at that time was maybe had, you know, Lollapalooza was huge in the early 2000s. And then I think the year I was playing it on tour is when they stopped the tour.

And then they went and did, Warp Tour became like the touring show. And Warp Tour is massive, but it was really big when you guys were involved in it. enough so that, you know, it really broke Katie Perry. It really broke, like, a ton of bands. A ton of artists. A ton of artists are huge because of Warp Tour. You guys found yourselves in the middle, and this is something that, you know, that book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell,

where you were born at the right time if you landed while there was a tour like Warp Tour. but even more so in the pop world at that time right when you guys are having a number one song you're surrounded with you know Benny but then Katie Perry Kesha Luke all these people all at just the perfect time going getting that successful with your peers did you guys feel like could you feel the bubble part of what you guys are doing or what you guys are doing or what Was this something, did you recognize how significant this was to music worldwide? Or were you guys just sort of like, oh, no, I'm, my two friends are featuring on these records, and they just happen to be the two biggest female pop stars.

We've got the biggest producers in the world producing our records. And you're still like this Boulder band. How did you, you know, what was, what is it like in the bubble in that time? Yeah, it's, I think at the time to answer a question for me, at least no. Like, you know, maybe third party for other people, like watching Katie go from playing Warpedor to to being the biggest artist on the planet.

Yeah, like you see that. But, you know, we still knew her as Katie and like seeing her at, you know, festivals or at award shows and stuff. It was great catching up. And I think, at least for us, it's only been, you know, until years later where people start telling you being like,

oh, and it's flattering. And we're not predisposed to think that way, I think, people are like, oh man, don't trust me is amazing. And it, you know, it really brought something new to pop music or whatever, the sound and the, and the thematics and the kind of playfulness of it. But I think that at the time, it was just like, like I said, we were just kind of had heads down, surrounded by friends. We'd get off tour, come home.

You know, Sean would go back to New York and come or I'd come home and, you know, would be having dinner with my parents and talking with my homies here. And like, I think that balanced sense of life in retrospect is amazing because it, you know, It allowed us to focus on the work, focus on the vibe of what we were doing and not get caught up in any of the other stuff that might have detracted from that or might have been harder to deal with. And I think that, you know, we, you kind of, I don't know, for us, for us it was always about the music and the shows

and making sure that those were as fun as possible, that they, you know, work in 16-hour days in the studio when we were making those records, having fun doing it and feeling like we were like being productive. and having fun and not getting, you know, not getting bogged down like with other things that could be detracting from that vibe of just open creativity and inclusiveness and having fun. You guys ended up working with Lil John also at that time who was at the time the biggest rapper. So you really, you guys were checking it all off. But the next thing on the resume

that's really intriguing to me, Nat, is, you know, love somebody for Maroon 5. becomes you know it's a it's a smash but it's not for 303 that's probably it's a different experience

when you're saying not being distracted and stuff once you start seeing what it is to write a song and not have to be the one who tours how does that change your perspective of songwriting man it's it's amazing

and I'll the broader level, I think having the, having the external, you know, as we refer to, kind of external songwriting, as in writing for and with other artists or other projects, whether it be, you know, music for TV shows or video games or movies or, you know, pop artists directly, I think it provides such a great balance with your own artistry because, you know, for the things, the pitfalls that you might have in each one kind of even each other out a bit, whereas, you know, with, as you guys know, writing for other, especially for other pop artists it's a lot of speculating man it's like mining for gold like you write a lot of material

and the vast majority of it doesn't go anywhere and you know you can be fortunate to get a very small handful of songs cut and and from their released and from there you know have success but i think things are much more tangential in in your own writing of being able to like be creative and and have and if you like it release it and and have people hear it but like having yeah on love somebody it's an amazing experience. I remember, you know, working with Ryan Tetter. I got hooked up with Ryan

because Ryan was still in Colorado at the time and my publisher Amanda, Amanda Berman Hill at Sony and was like, hey, I want to hook up with Ryan because I was living in Colorado and he was too. And so went to go work

and, you know, in an afternoon created the kind of the instrumental for that with Ryan. And then it kind of was just sat there for a year and then he called me up and he's like, hey, it's going to be a Maroon 5 song.

I've been in the studio with Maroon 5. I was like, shit, all right. But, and then watching it do what it did, yeah, you know, to your point as kind of watching that from afar rather than being in it every single day is it's amazing in a different way. And there's certain things, you know, it's all, it's all music and it's all appreciating the art and stuff. But it definitely is a different experience and one that is equally and differently rewarding. and being able to, you know, I went and saw them live while they were kind of on that overexposed tour.

I know you had did some work for that record too. And like seeing it live as well is just, it's, it's so satisfying in a completely different way. Hearing that song on the radio is different than hearing your own like a 303 song on the radio for me. It's different, but equally, I don't know. I guess it's like when people say they love things differently, but equally. Side note. I know this is your story, not mine.

but my mom just posted a picture from that over-exposed tour because that was the first time where I had a song with a band that they would even go see. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And it was like, you know, front row seats kind of thing, you know, and they got to see it. They got to see my song live.

And that was sort of a moment. Still, it took years until I think, you know, it was really hard to convince my dad that, no, I don't want to be an artist right now. I just want to write songs for other people. Sure. that even if you sell out the troubadour, that's success. But if you have a song with another artist,

it was hard to understand that that has any value. You know, but, you know, when you, it's, it helps when they can see these songs live and see how big they are. But you guys also had a song with, you know, Ariana Grande right in the beginning of her becoming Ariana. You know, it's like you guys really were involved in the songwriting community. why even bother going through the stress of being in the band? Yeah, I mean, it's a good question.

I think songwriting to me, it's like basketball, it's like a game of runs. You do have, I think about that early time, we were batting a very high average. Like we worked with Liljohn or Kesha and like the song would get cut and we were just like, man, this is easy. Let's just keep doing this. But it's really not. I mean, I think when we started to hang our hats like on, you know, fully immersing ourselves. And I think we were like, you know, this how sustainable is, because we were out on the road, like we barely would be home.

Like, what was it? Like three years straight, we were just like straight on the road and like would just touch ground to catch our breath and get back out. And it's really hard. I mean, touring no matter what, like whether it's one-offs or if you have the luxury, I mean, obviously a lot of people are still out there in vans and doing it. and cars and stuff like you know even if you have the luxury of a bus like you're still in a basically a submarine with 10 other people that you can reach out and touch at any moment with you know it's uh you know it's it can be uh really a lot so i think the songwriting part was something that we were

like you know what let's uh let's diversify and and and lean into this a little bit more and i think that's when i sort of met you ross and joe and is when i started to really you know i moved to L.A. from New York and I was like, I'm going to really lean into this. And I did realize how hard, how much hard work it is and like not said speculative, especially, you know, on the songwriting part of it and not necessarily on the production part, although that's a different animal. But it's like, you know, you're in these rooms and my friends would be like, man, you got to work for this artist or that. Like, how much did they pay you? And you're like, well, nothing until the song gets cut and sees money. And I don't think they understood that. They're like, what do you mean?

you so like and so you do this work for free yeah so it's a different animal i think what nat said is like the pros and cons of like of having the control of your own band and what you want to put out uh and what you write and kind of kind of like you know steer your ship a little bit more versus the there's only so much you're in control of as a songwriter and it's been amazing with three oh three like i think one of the reasons that we keep doing it a because it's so fun and we love doing it in such a creative outlet and it balances that songwriting but also it's like we've managed to to just keep being productive especially with live shows you know and transition from doing tours to to playing a lot of shows for colleges and universities and playing for the military

you know domestically and all over the world um and I think that like I don't know how or why I think we've been waiting for you referred to the bubble you know earlier I think we've been waiting for that to burst for a long time, but for some reason, we've been able to write it out. And now when we go play colleges, which is amazing because it really reminds us of when we were in school and when we started making music and we had such great experiences in school, being students and also working on music and having it be this hobby that developed into a career. Back before iPhones. Yeah, but you, you know, we'll talk to kids and they'll be like, yeah, we were, you know,

we were 10 years old and don't trust we came out and we were, you know, or we were in middle school and that was our jam. And it's just amazing to, it's amazing to be able to, you know, we were talking earlier about not really having perspective while we were really in the crux of kind of the acme of our touring and stuff like that I think we've been able to get some time and have some perspective and that's so rewarding

man to be able to do that. Does it help to live in Boulder instead of L.A.? I mean obviously Sean I know you're kind of back and forth but yeah for sure. Yeah I mean I think I'm back and forth to we have a place in L.A. now too And I think for sure it's different.

But, you know, there's great people everywhere. And we have great friends in L.A. and stuff too. But, yeah, there's something in Boulder, you know, it's a town of 100,000 people. For a town of 100,000, like, it's pretty plugged in to things that are important, you know, in terms of activism and vibe and collectivity. And, you know, something that I think we've, as a community we've benefited from in the recent tragedy here is that people are very collective thinking,

they're progressive thinking, they're engaged with the community. And yeah, for sure, man. And I think it's on my side, I know on Sean's side, too, our families are so close to family and family and friends. It's just so, if there's anything that's going to keep you, you know, positive and happy and grounded and productive, I think it's those people. You know, you guys have, you guys are now signed to Field by Ramen. and you guys have gone through a number of phases.

How much of what you do now is based in the live show again, which I know is complicated in quarantine, or in a pandemic, I should say. I don't know if we're all in quarantine anymore. But how much of what you do is based in live shows, in the plan of that versus now that you've experienced of doing professional writing as well

how much of it's based in sales and yes yeah I mean we're adding to that phase because we're actually full circle back with a photo finish actually we released our last album Night Sports

how many years ago four years ago now with Fuel Buy and now we're just gearing up to release our album Need with photo finish with Matt Galley and crew again. So it's kind of really, yeah, it's a fun return to form. They're amazing team and it's just a great partnership that we're back with. But yeah, to answer your question, I think for us, it's like, I think we, I don't know, like, it's funny. And I don't know if this speaks to you too, but it's like you learn so much about the business.

But at some points when it comes to music, like, you do have to like try to forget. And I think you can get back into that because like Nat and I, I think we came back, we came to photo finish with maybe like 50, 40 something, 50 songs that we were like, listen, can you help us just go through this and get perspective and like see what we want to do? Like, this is shit. This is sucks. And, you know, it's like we just kind of like put our heads down like Nat said and don't get too bogged down with like just writing the perfect song over and over.

but at some point it is kind of important i think when we sort of like partnered with them there was a new energy and we wrote a lot of the songs on the album after we uh partnered with photo finish and it just because we had like it it was this new era for us and i think when you come from a place like a time and place and energy like it definitely can it can be represented in the work that you do the body of the work rather than just sort of frankenstining it from a lot of different pieces so i think that was important for us but then then we get into the nuances. That's why we wanted to work with photo finishes because they are like every like we can get on a Zoom call with them any other day and just talk about like switch up our marketing plan, our timeline

any second. It's not as rigid as it used to be. I feel like we used to have to set up a single for months and you put all your money and you played all these radio shows. And if it didn't sail, I mean, it was like a lot of weight put on that one song. And I think now there's just different ways to cut it in creative ways. And I think it's back to being fun in that capacity because I think there was a lot of pressure on just everything lining up. I mean, the song could be great for any artists and it just could not line up or be the right time or place. So it's, I think as an artist with this team, it's like we can look at those things from a business perspective. We are missing the live component. I mean, that has always been so such a big part of us to like test out, even new songs,

to see how they react, to see, oh, this bridge is, we should make this only, you know, eight bars. Like, why is this so long? Why is it 254 bars? Why are we jamming? I've been way too much in the Grateful Dead. But, like, you know, you learn those things. And I think we've, we've had some virtual shows and we're in Nat's basement with, like,

a fog machine. And we have these animatronic laser walls. Shout out to my brother, because I gave him that fog machine for his birthday, and then I stole it right back. And it's funny because it's just me and him down there. And, you know, even after his wife. will be like, oh, we heard you like, you know, like it will be like 8 p.m. And she'll be like, oh, you, this part sounded good.

Like from the base of it. We're just like, thank you. Like, other than that, just performing like this to a computer screen. It's just different. But we still have fun doing it. I think the live part for me is definitely like one of the most fun parts for me. Like, I just love getting out there and interacting. Like, it makes me feel alive and part of something, you know.

For this final segment. we're going to do a five for five. I'm going to list five things and just tell me if it sparks joy. Maybe that's the wrong thing. Just tell me what comes out the top of your mind. Is this Marie Kondo or whatever? Let's start with Matt Galley. Ripping down a Weiner, no, Burger King sign at one of our shows in Colorado.

And also jumping on stage. and doing a front flip into the crowd. That's insane. I can't do a front flip into a pool out of a group of humans. I don't know if he executed it very well, but it was... The intention.

The intention was impressive. He's a blazing ball of energy, and he's such a good guy to have him on your team. I think he'll go and... He's got tons of ideas, and he'll also, you know, he's not afraid of pursuing them. Let's go with the Los Angeles music scene. Come out to L.A. write some songs.

Get real famous down, lose it all. Is that original? Yeah, see, that's what we do, man. We just freestyle. That's what we do. That's what we're releasing these days. That's what we're about to release. That's our new album.

Yeah. LA music scene It's just so I feel like it's just become For me it's like it's so many more friendships than like I feel like I wanted to take advantage of Like working with the people I already know that are homies to me But I still end up in a studio with someone new Every time I mean before when I could

Like I would just be with new people all the time And it's I think I think there's just a balance Like I think there's so many people in L.A. There's so many artists and I think it's amazing but I think sometimes, I guess overwhelming for me sometimes. Yeah, but to Sean's point, man, it's, you know, I think some of individually and collectively for us, like some of our best friends have come out of writing songs in LA. And I think, you know, working at Kia, it can be a grind, man.

There's so many people working and there's so many good people working, which lends itself to, like, you know, a lot of competition for songs and stuff. But it's also, I think we're, every time I start to, like, feel something, I always kind of kick myself and being like, man, we work in an industry that is by far dominated by interesting people, dynamic people, people from different backgrounds, people who are fun and funny and creatively, really, really talented and really progressive and on the whole, like, really interesting people, man. So I think that's really something that's so positive about being able to work in music.

Comparison is the Thief of Joy. I think it's Teddy Roosevelt or... Or the Blue Man Group. The Blue Man Group. Actually, Ryan Tedder is the one he used to say, compare and despair. And I just, and so it must be something that you guys are taught in Colorado.

But Ross, Russ, you, I know you and Joe got some cuts on that latest Blue Man Group record. Oh, dude. It's like I only take my pipes from my actual back. I cut into our plump. And, yo, were your parents front row at that show, too? Yeah, that's actually fun to make it get behind. Boulder, Colorado.

Man, that's a rich one. Flat irons. I mean, it's just to me, you can't. I mean, if the minute you realize you've been here too long, it was when you're like, you just forget to look out and see the, like, flat irons because they just stare you right in the face. They're amazing. Majestic.

Yeah, it's a great place. Great. You know, has been known to be a very progressive, very open, very forward-thinking place for a long time. And there's a reason for that and good people. and you know for for me it's especially family and friends man the last two uh nat this is to you sean foreman sexy sexy boy sexy boy with grateful dead socks uh sean foreman is a great friend and we let's go with the first one sexy boy no we um you know we we we were joking around about it earlier but we

actually formerly met at the university in that physics class and bonded over underground hip hop and like he had seen me make like these weird DIY videos on public access TV and really started working on music as part of our friendship pretty immediately and it's never stopped and great guy great facial hair great mustache he can flex out a beard very fast which is very sick and extremely talented, wonderful man. Sean Foreman. Wouldn't it be weird if I asked you to all... I know.

Yeah, Sean Forman. Nat Mahdi. Maybe he's Sean Foreman. Sean Foreman. Sean Foreman is Natman. Hold on. Hold on. I'm going to look straight at you. Big heart. Big shoes.

Full heart. Clear eyes. Yeah. warm heart he's got a big old warm heart he cares about anyone that's he's very loyal and uh supportive um and he was early uh on to innovate um the game of basketball because i was always like man you're six eight why don't you post up more he was just first to uh you know to change the game up and be one of these new uh centers that can kind of you know think that's big range game shoot up yeah i mean you definitely innovated the game of basketball for everyone so thank you

At least in our Kevin Katsossack's pickup basketball league. Thank you. That's very kind of usual. Well, thank you guys for being on and The Writer is. Obviously, we kind of all came up around the same time and are part of the same group. So it's just one of those things where we wanted to do this podcast initially just to ask people in real time what it's like to be musicians in real time and not have it be a document. about what it was like back in the day. And just to have gone through, you know, this career alongside with certain people,

it's just amazing to see how people survived, succeeded, chose to do different kinds of things, lived in different places, focus on touring, focus on albums, focus on writing. But we're all, most of us are former members of bands and kept it going, didn't keep it going, whatever it is. And to see that you guys are still together, still loyal, you know, still friends with the same people that we're all still friends with, it just feels like home.

And it's so good to have conversations with people who just feel like home. And in an industry where there's so many people where we all know all the junk, you know. But in reality, it's what Nat said. It's like a lot of our best friends, not just best collaborators, but best friends are people that we meet in sessions and from being on the same albums,

from, you know, we're all just much closer than we realize, you know, and it's just good to have these conversations to remind us that there's a safe place in the writing community to be weird and be songwriting for the artists, you know? Absolutely, man. Well, thank you guys so much.

Thanks to you and Joe for doing what you do. It really is. honor and a pleasure for us to be on and thanks for you know all the you know I think maybe at this point you guys are getting a little bit of perspective to be able to like reflect on the body of work that you guys are doing doing this podcast and providing inspiration and instruction and kind of you know for a lot of other songwriters and people in the music business and people who aren't and I think that you know your your advocacy is is honorable and if we do if I decide to go to med school and we're holding tryouts Sean's holding tryouts I think you know Ross you could be

the first on the list maybe. I know they're tough tryouts, but you got to get the dance moves right. I was actually thinking because we're going to have a kid that if you went back to med school, that you were trying to say that we'd be first on the list to do that kid. Well, hey, I could get fast track. Usually that takes about seven or eight years, but I could try to get it done and however many months you got left. And congratulations, future congratulations, by the way. Exactly. That's amazing. All right, guys. Thanks. Thanks, right. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist. Or visit our website at and The WriterIs.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Gowling.