And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 136: Tricky Stewart

Episode Date: June 21, 2021

In a career spanning over 30 years, today’s guest has been the guiding force behind selling over 50 million records and instrumental to some of the most musical moments of this generation. He has written and produced many chart topping R&B and pop singles and albums such as: Rihanna’s GRAMMY winning "Umbrella"; Beyoncé’s GRAMMY winning “Single Ladies (Put a Ring On It)"; Justin Bieber’s "Baby"; Mariah Carey's "Touch My Body" and "Obsessed"; Mary J. Blige's "Just Fine"; Frank Ocean’s “Novacane”; The-Dream's "Love/Hate" and "Love vs. Money"; Katy Perry’s “Teenage Dream”; Beyoncé’s “4”; Ciara's "Ride"; Frank Ocean’s “Nostalgia, Ultra”; the Britney Spears and Madonna collaboration "Me Against the Music” and so many more. He has also discovered and/or developed game changing talents like: Ester Dean, Frank Ocean, Justin Tranter, Ricky Reed and writing partner The - Dream. Our guest is head of his own record label and commercial studio complex, RZ3 Recordings, based in Atlanta and he previously served as President of A&R at Epic Records. In 2012, Billboard named Stewart to the “40 under 40 list of Music Executives”. And The Writer Is… Tricky Stewart!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. www.com. Welcome to Anne the Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's multi-Grami-winning iconic producer is one of the most notable entrepreneurs

and executives in the game. Baby, baby, baby, oh, this guy has penned quintessential. Evergreens for some of the most legendary artists across all genres of all time. He's written the kind of hits that you can't imagine didn't always exist. All the single ladies and the rest of us have been under his umbrella for 30 years of his musical genius. And in addition to crafting records for generational talents like Mary J. Blige, Mariah Kerry and Celine Dion, he is the founder and creator of Red Zone Entertainment.

from Atlanta, this man has quite literally changed the music industry from successfully navigating both sides of it, whilst still being a family man. And the writer is Tricky Stewart. Hey, thank you, man. That was a great introduction. So, full disclosure, about 10 years ago, there was some artists, and I can't remember the name of who they were, that was that epic. and I had a song that I wrote with a producer named D. Mile, who's great. And you were A&Ring it, and I was doing everything I could at that point to get into the songwriting game. And you liked this one song, and you called my phone, and I was in Mexico,

and my mom and my dad answered my phone. Oh, wow. Wow. And I called, I came back and they were like, I, um, tricky, Stuart called you. I was like, what? I got to find which song was. I don't think it ended up coming out. I just remember we were working on some lyric notes and whatever.

I called you back and we, whatever, we talked for a minute then. And, um, but at that time in my career, it was like to have, you know, to have you call me on my phone was like a solid landmark because I was just, you know, at that point I'd been studying your songs for a long time. So pretty cool that, you know, that was a random first meeting with my mom and my dad telling me that you had, you had called earlier in the day. That's a cool story. You know, I was trying to get you on, man. I was trying to get you on. I appreciate that. Okay. So, let's start from the beginning. Both of us are Chicago suburban nights of sorts. You grew,

you were born in Illinois. Yeah. And I was born in Mark in Illinois. I grew up in the Calumet City, Dalton area, which is a south suburb. It's about 35 minutes drive to downtown Chicago. So grew up there, went to Thornwood High School, dropped out of Thornwood High School. I dropped out of Thornwood high school, moved to L.A. chasing my dreams. And we're still out here. I guess you could say the rest is history, but we're still trying to make it. So I don't want it to be history just yet. I just wanted to be part of the story. I love that. Were your parents' musicians? Obviously, your brother is a prominent musician, but were your parents' musicians? Everyone in my family is a musician of some sort. So from the standpoint of I grew up as a church

musician and playing and wanting to play in my mother's choir who it was kind of like the thing that the family did it was like whether it's my cousin coo corral my brother lamey my cousin sean sep hall jason weaver like the big thing was like getting involved into that choir so with the whole big quest as a kid was being good enough to become the drummer of that choir and while on the side at Trinity United Church of Christ down on 95th Street, actually being the drummer for their choir on the side. But at the same time, my uncle Butch, Stuart, rest in peace, was a really big jingle producer in Chicago, owned a company by the name of Joy Art. And, you know, I grew up doing the commercials with all my cousins like Big Macphalae fish, quarter pound of

French fries. I see Coke, big shakes. So, It was all that kind of stuff. And we did all that stuff. Like that was kind of the vibes of what we did on the weekends. It was like, you know, go do commercials from our Uncle Butch and play in the choir. So, you know, the whole family does music. My dad, who I wouldn't, I personally didn't, I mean, maybe I, maybe I'm being disrespectful. But I didn't really view him as a musician much, although he directed choirs and things when him and my mother met.

but he had gone more into radio and became a program director. And my mom, who also, you know, sang for Aretha Franklin, giving him something he could feel and all that. She became a program director after that. So, but my dad ended up at the end, like, I guess kind of after he, like, chilled a little bit after that part of music ended up going back to, school and become a classical pianist, which I was like, yeah, whatever. Like, anybody could read music. That's not a big deal.

But I guess overall, yes, I come from a musical family. And that's kind of what it was like growing up in Illinois for me. And there's just cousins upon cousins upon cousins that do really significant things in music on different levels. Growing up in a family that understands radio programming or being programmed directors. I imagine that you have a certain level between that and competing to be in your mom's choir, you know, to play for that. I imagine that the level of excellence is constant in your household. Well, you know, it's interesting because although my mom was,

because she was also a radio personality and then became a program director, it was also, I never really put it together like that, you know? It wasn't, I didn't really think about it like that because one was like church and just like the love of the game kind of like playing and then the other was her playing records and meeting, meeting stars and doing all that kind of stuff. But I never really, I never really gravitated towards the radio side of it other than just hearing my mom on the radio and honestly just monitoring when she was coming home because I knew that we knew that the parties had to stop because we would be throwing some fucking cool-ass parties and stuff when my brothers were in high school and I was in like seventh grade and she was on overnight. So it was like that was what radio meant to us,

you know? Were you in recording studios at that time? I mean obviously again, everybody making music, you know, and especially in Chicago, were you just constantly raised in a studio as well? And was it secular music? Did your parents play because of the church were they playing mostly secular or mostly Christian music

or were they playing We grew up in a very mixed uncensored household because we loved Earth went in fire and we loved Bootsy Collins and we loved Kiss and we loved

the barge and Rick James and just a lot of stuff that was happening. So we love that as much as we love James Cleveland and Richard Smallwood. And it was just, it was really just talent based, I think, in my household. And, you know, so it wasn't any sort of, there was never any conversation of secular versus gospel. It was just what was really, really great music. What brought you into, you know, obviously leaving, high school and then coming to LA to work on music. Before you do that, you have to know that you

want to work on music. When do you actually start creating music? Well, it was a little bit different. You know, I think most people that would know me from Chicago would know me as an athlete first. So when football, basketball, and baseball, actually. So the thing was, music was the fallback playing. You know how people say, oh, have something to fall back on. I was like, oh, man, I'm not going to be a professional athlete because once I started getting recruited and they were telling me that I was too short and that ultimately they were going to have to change my position and this and that. I was like, oh, yeah, I need something to fall back on. So that fall back on was music because I knew, like in my environment, that's what you do. That's like having an ice cream

shop up the street and it was just like I'm going to go work in dad's ice cream shop it wasn't it wasn't like a dream it was like all right well I got to get to LA because I got to make some music it was more like that that's crazy what were your positions in what sport it's like in football in football I played quarterback in football I played pitcher and shortstop in baseball and I played point guard as football I mean in basketball so from the state standpoint of what I think it takes to be a good producer, it was the lateral move for me into a different thing about, you know, what the responsibility of a music producer was is to be in control, call the right plays, put the right combinations of things together, see the field a certain way, and then execute. So that's where, like, even with the red zone, that's where that all comes from. It's like, yes, we're playing basketball. Yes, we're playing basketball. we are playing music, but we play it from a football perspective. And the whole idea is to be in the red zone so that you have an opportunity to score.

So philosophically, of being in the red zone and staying in the red zone is just kind of giving yourself in this business that is really, really hard to stay in. The longevity part really has to do with staying in the red zone. And a lot of that has to do with just decision making, staying focused on the right thing, making sure that you're, you're spending time making music and ultimately making sure that you're spending time selling music. There's a lot of people in our business that just like to make it. But you have to sell it too because that's the second part of creation is getting it to the right artist and getting it to the right vehicle because you can easily write a hit song that if it doesn't get heard or to the right person and get access, it could just be a job. great song that no one knows. Yeah, it sits on your iTunes.

I mean, even just the work ethic that you get from being a professional athlete, you know, you would never, you know, you don't show up to games, you know, you don't necessarily show up to the games fucked up. You might actually stretch before you play a game. Like, you might actually want to do a little research or like treat it like it's a, you know, you go to the gym and you work out when you're a professional athlete. You can do that as a musician too and actually put in time to be a better musician. Absolutely.

I like a lot of the publishing companies that treat sessions like it's a game and not sessions like it's a practice. I think a lot of songwriters think of, well, let's just go and do another session. It's like, well, you know, it made the song might just show up and sound a little bit like that too. Right, right. Absolutely. It's all in the approach. And from our standpoint, I've been able to bring that intensity level, I think, to music. Now, when you move to L.A., you, your first cuts are, a lot of them are, you know, doing remixes and stuff. And remixes, I feel like, have taken on different, you know, different meanings as time's gone on. but why like when you first got to L.A., how long was it from when you got off the plane or out of a car, however you got to L.A.? How long did it get from the car to, you know, getting into a recording studio? So, gosh, my money is so bad at some of these things, so I might mess up to the story just a little bit.

But what ended up happening is we got to Los Angeles. We had a relationship with a gentleman by the name of Louis Silas Jr., the late great A&R for MCA Records, who kind of was the brains behind new additions, any heartbreak, BBD's Poison Album, a lot of Pebbles, L.A. and Babyface. a lot of their early big hit songs, Bobby Browns, like that era of music. And I was really, really attracted to that era of music. So we made it our business to build a relationship with Louis Silas. And when I say we, I mean my brothers and I, Laney and Mark.

And Laney had a preexisting relationship with him to the point that when we were in Chicago, Louis used to fly to L.A. to work with Lainey when I was. underneath Lainey as a producer. So we had some inroads there, and then we had inroads with a few other ANR people. So with that being said, we got to L.A., we weren't like coming from nowhere, right? So it was really just a matter of me creating an access point or an access line to Lul Silas Jr. as far as I was concerned, and the artist that have really, you know, really just kind of set my soul on fire musically. So if you can imagine, like, you know, if right now we have, in Atlanta

here, we have a creative team and a label going crazy with QC with P and Coach. So, you know, if you're a rapper right now and you like little baby and you like the city girls and you like little Yadi and the things that they have going on, this is a calling, hard for you to want to be part of that culture. And it becomes your job at that point to get to that label. And that's what that kind of represented at that point. It didn't seem that hard because the address you knew where the people were, it was on the back of every album.

So it was just a matter of like whether it was being by his car, knew him where he ate, knew it like, it's a little bit stalkerish, but you kind of just get in a position to be discovered and to have a conversation to remind someone that they know you and that you've met them or whatever the situation is. And those remixes opportunities came by the way of them just saying kind of get out of my face, kid. You know, like, I know you're talented.

I heard some of your shit back when I was in Chicago, but, you know, really, you know, my shit didn't sound nothing like, you know, what was going on at the time, which was L.A. and Babyface were making Don't Be Cruel and Teddy Riley was doing Guy and Jayman Lewis were doing, you know, any heartbreak in Janet Jackson. So my music clearly wasn't on that level, but

it was a matter of just getting there to try to be part. And I believe he threw us a couple of remixed opportunities, let us work with some of the other artists that were on the label, which were like Aaron Hall, because he just started his own

label, so he had Aaron Hall and Shantay Moore a few other things, and Damien Hall. So my brother, Laney had been doing Aaron Hall's album. We had gotten like a little, some ideas on there that he grew up for us, turned him into records and ended up with two records on there.

And then from there, that relationship just turned into us getting on that Bobby Brown, if it ain't good enough remix of the Elian Babyface record, right? And that was a big record at the time. And to have that opportunity was just like, did immense things for our confidence, which led us to getting our first placement as producers with our name as the, you know, as the main thing on Shantay Moore's album, one of her early albums. I can't love Supreme. I think it was called. I think it was called Love Supreme.

Don't quote me on that. But, yeah, so just trying to build that relationship, we would just take any opportunity. And a lot of times those opportunities came in the form of remixes. How is your relationship with your brother? I mean, I imagine you were a younger brother. Yeah. You know, going and working with your, I don't have a brother.

I have a sister. But if we work together, I'd kill her. You know, it's like, I don't know how. There's two, there's three of us all together. But one does business. One is the manager and then there's the two brothers that produce. I see. How are you guys in a, you know, with it, are you guys equal when you're in a studio together?

Or was it like, no, you're my little brother? Were you guys? Or was it always like, no, we're brothers. It doesn't really matter who's older or younger. No, I mean, like, I think, how do I explain it? I think from the standpoint of, I think we know who does what best. And early on in my career, like, he did everything better. So there was never a question of, like, who does what best?

But I think overall, we have a very similar skill set. So, you know, a lot of times we spend time working with other people doing the same thing with other groups of people. So it's not, we've never had an occasion to bang, to bang heads, like creatively because we all. always were, we were always the engine of whatever room we were in. You know, we were the driving force of the room that we were in. So there hasn't been a whole bunch of like, let's get in the studio and collaborate. You know what I mean? When did you know you could, you know, create music without your, you know, without your brothers in the room? Where is it pretty close, were you at that point already doing, you know, you guys are in separate rooms sometimes? Or, you know,

when you said the brother was just better than everything than you were. You know, it's different. You know, like you got to understand this is a time where technology is not the same. There's no shortcut. So a really good producer sounded completely different than you sound. So it's not like everybody had the same plug-ins or everybody had the same advantage. It's like a really good producer sounded like he had a completely different job than you did. Right.

And that's what, so there was no, there was no, there was no, there was no confusion about who that person was in the studio, the studio life of yesterday, right? And I think that went in every situation. So it just wasn't a lot of, like, I knew I could produce when my shit sounded like everybody else's and when it sounded as good. And I was literally deep into my career. before it was time for me to actually start producing. Like, I was part of teams. I could add pieces, and it might have been my record, and it might have been my idea. But being responsible for what the final product sounded like, I was, it wasn't probably until.

I mean, it was another 12 years after those songs. Like, when you get like that, I mean, before that, but like, once, you know, what I was going to say is even after, you start getting that confidence, you're starting to get cuts, and you start getting some big names on your discography that Color Me Bads

and the Braxton's and 98 degrees and all the things, Tony, Tony, Tony, and come on, like, just legends. And, you know, you're working on all kinds of, like, amazing records. But the kind of success you have later is so, so different. Because I think, I think the big thing is, right, is then those records

and yes, you're making money and you're you are the thing, you're part of the thing. But until you start driving the albums, until your record is the record, you're not producing. Like, in my opinion, like, you're just making

music and a lot of people can make music. But when you become a hitmaker, then you become responsible for how the ecosystem is built. And that's a completely different feeling in music. And there's a lot of people who get addicted to going to the studio, making music, having a bounce and thinking, no, you're not like that person. You're not like that person. What they're doing is changing the way that the game sounds. And the era that you're alluding to is when I found the dream. And we started writing the umbrellas and the falsettos and the, you know, the babies and all those different things. And there was nobody. on the planet that had a record that sounded like the records that we were making and the concepts were better

the everything the sonics were better the effects were different and it was just it's that thing that I'm talking about that I can recognize in Jam and Lewis having that thing or or L.A. Babyface where it's like you'll know if you're there or not like you know what I mean and when you hear it you'll know that why certain people's names become household names from making records, whether you're talking about the Mike Will Maidens or the DJ Mustards or the, you know, like, and I'm specifically talking about more on the urban culture right now. But it's like you'll know why people know those names, because when you line those records up and you line that body of work up,

what you definitely know is that they know what the hell they're doing, you know, every single time. Whether you like the record or not, that'll become one thing. But what it will have is the opportunity to drive a record company one way together. There is a huge difference between, you know, when you're saying, you know, you're naming producers and you're saying more on the urban culture, but all of those producers you name defined like a pop era. It doesn't seem like

It's not like your discography is You know It really always it you managed You were working with artists like pink Do you know what I mean? You were working with color me bad Like they were still like They were pretty

I felt like you were still in the pop world Yeah I mean I My like I said to my My upbringing allows me to be authentic in every generation. So when you listen to Katie Perry's Hummingbird Heartbeat, and you go, wait, that's the same dude that did JT. Money. Like, I can get authentic.

Like, I can get authentic and whatever the thing is, it's not going to, you know, one of the things that I love about my creativity is that it's not going to be on display through a sound. So it's like I truly take on the era, the mindset of turning into that, turning into that artist and letting, and giving them the thing that they really need

and not necessarily having a sound that dictates what's going to come from our collaboration. How did you meet the dream, who obviously becomes like a big collaborator throughout, you know, that next level, like you were saying, that's the Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis, you know, that's the baby face in LA Reed. That's like the, you know, that's the moment when you guys have this, this team that's like unstoppable. Side note, like, that dream album is like in my like island albums as far as, you know,

those melodies are just so effortless and the tracks are just, it's just such a classy, sounding album. But, you know, Umbrella kind of like is the along with, I mean, there's this whole list of songs you guys did in a very short amount of time. How did you guys meet? And why did you know that this was going to be a thing after, you know, what was the thing? What is that unsequence? And that everyone's always searching for. I think I met Dream because a Dream was signed with my brother Lainey.

Lane signed Dream and then Dream ended up not being signed because his contract kind of expired or whatever you call it is when the contracts are over or whatever and ultimately what ended up happening as your dream went out

and kind of became something different and on his own and really started kind of making dablin or making tracks as well as writing songs as well as as shooting videos as well as just kind of dove completely into his creativity and I really honestly didn't really know what Dream had to offer before that point before he took his own career into his own hands. I just knew he had a lot of melodies and a lot of um a lot of melodies and a lot

of ambition and what ended up happening is through that time period he can't ended up coming back and I really had like a real love for the music that he was making with Nivia at the time. And we ended up getting in the studio because we hadn't spent any time in the studio. And it was this kind of critical time where I was kind of figuring out what I was going to do with the next wave of my career. And I knew I wanted to make some changes sonically and engineer wise. So I called my cousin Kukk, who at the time had left music alone and was doing something completely different. And I called him and I said, hey, man, I really could use some help down here. Like, I'm kind of like, I feel like something good is about to happen, but I need somebody to lock in with me.

And he's like, cool. And we had that conversation, and he moved to Atlanta. And I don't know if he moved or if he came and he started spending time. but somehow he ended up in Atlanta. During that same time, Dream and I had been put in a position where we were kind of the only two writers that were around, like right after the first of the year, because there was a lot of people traveling and people take time off during that time. So we were just kind of up there. And I was at the studio, and he said, can I come by? I was like, yeah.

And we got a little bit of chance to, like, kind of be alone for about four or five days. And we started writing. We started just kind of getting, what we thought, getting our wheels ready for the next year, while everybody was on vacation and stuff like that. And by, you know, by the time, three or four days went by,

like, we wrote umbrella first. And then we wrote Suffocate right after or shortly there, either before or after. And both those records were both number one. One was obviously a smash. The other one was still a number two pop record. And, you know, I had other writers that I was working with and things like that.

So about that time, you know, everybody started coming back from vacation or the Christmas break. And I'm just like, hey, guys, like, I need you to, like, hold up. like kind of got something going here like what us just being kind of locked in and we just started writing like we just started writing songs like crazy and ultimately our differences is of influence i think compliment each other really well um i think because like i said i i i definitely am that jam and lewis baby face teddy riley devante swing type energy and dream is an oldest reading type.

Like he's a old soul melody. It's like he grew up with his grandfather. So his sense of melodies are from a different generation. And so what he got through his subconscious listens as a kid and what I got through mine kind of creates this thing that creates these really, that has the ability to create really melodic melodies and darkness at the same time. And I think that's what that combination really led to. And it was super, super dominant. I mean, we pretty much, I think we really change the way people produce.

I think the super sessions that we see today are kind of like a result of that, you know, because we had Ku Karel cutting vocals. We had us just sitting in the chamber writing day in, day out. We had Jason, Joshua, and Dave Pensado working together in a collaborative state on mixes. We had tech over I, what's tech? Yeah, tech on vocal effects only. Like, it was a real assembly line type of efficiency. And we started taking up so much real estate of music by taking over whole.

albums that I think people really had to really adjust to how they make records. And now I think you see the super sessions with four and five producers. But, you know, we had Jazzy Faye collaborating with us. We had Lohs the Maestro collaborating with us on a musical side. So we were getting energy all over the place. So, you know, to be able to take over Mary Jay Blashe's album, growing pains and win album of the year, contemporary album of the year

to Mariah Carey's whole album, you know, have six songs from my company between myself and Esther Dean on the Teenage Dream album and doing whole films with burlesque

and, you know, like people were just surprised by the bandwidth and the speed and you know, we kind of had them. Like, did you have any other like? outside of this?

Or is this just like straight up? I mean, this sounds like you were only in the studio, right? Like, you must have slept in the studio. I mean, yeah, we lived a, we lived a very interesting life during that time just because, you know, the way that we like to work, we took everybody to Las Vegas. We stayed in Las Vegas. So we were on the clock all the time. So we worked under pressure.

and we like people to come out there because in order for us to be out there, we're in 13 rooms, 13, 14 rooms. So, you know, it's like, labels are like, are you kidding me? We're not, we're not paying that. Like, well, you can come out and, you know, and at that time, we were so hot that, I mean, it's like, if you came out there, like, there was no chance that you weren't going to get your single. It didn't matter. It didn't even matter. It just didn't have a chance. And it's like, no one really cared.

because we would operate so quickly. You know, we were doing whole albums. Like, the love-hate album was written in two nights. Like, we did it, and we went to Las Vegas, and we finished it. That was the first time that we really touched down in Las Vegas because we knew we had the album done. And then we were like, let's go to Las Vegas and finish it.

You know, because the truth of the matter is, we were having, like, a lot of success, us and we could feel that we had something different. But Atlanta was so hot. There was so many hot producers. Polo the Don was super hot. Brian B. Cox and Jermaine were super hot coming off of We Belong together. Sean Gare was super hot.

So our whole thing was let's go someplace so that if somebody wants to mess with trick and dream, they got to come see us. And it's not just a part of a group to trip. So we made people really make decisions about. whether they wanted to be in business with us or not. And by the time you came to Las Vegas, we made it where you didn't want to leave. And a lot of times we would end up with that whole album

before the artist even, before they could even blink. The time it takes from writing a record to a record coming out is a long time. And, you know, you guys, you guys had that first week where you guys wrote umbrella and suffocate. when one is at that point to get a Rihanna cut with JZ

is still like the thing that kind of launches like you were saying it's not like the other songs weren't killing it but there's like a different level of that kind of success yeah but that success that's success too you have to remember Rihanna wasn't Rihanna at that moment So it was like she was very much like a artist that people looked at as a pop artist didn't really, hadn't had cultural connection.

So it felt more like Sean Kingston or Jason DeRue, something like that. And this record solidified her as a overall thing to all cultures on all the, on all the planet. So it was just a, it was a very, very special record that can do that. But that's what it takes a lot of times to get to that global stardom. Usually I like to talk about, you know, the stuff that happens between the successes, but it's really hard to do that in this era because of how much material you're putting out that are hits. Again, like single ladies is another one of those moments that I think is like a little bit bigger than the other moments, you know, the other big moments. That track is fucking crazy.

Thank you. I mean, how do you write that? Like, how does that song? How does that song work? Why does that song work? I feel like every part of that song should not work as well as it does. Like it can make sense, it does, you know, it's like, it just seems like it comes from another planet. When you're done writing a song like that, do you know it's the hit?

Do you call Beyonce directly and say, hey, you should cut this song? Do you, like, well, not that. That song was different because we were on tour with Jay Z and Mary J. Bosch for the Heart of City Tour. And when we got to North Carolina or something like that, they were like, we had four days in Madison Square Garden. And they were like, they sent a message. I can't remember who sent the message over, but they were like, hey, B, would like to get in the studio with you guys when we get to New York. So this is going to be here for 4A. So we come in the studio.

and we're at rock the mic and it's just you know it's us Stargate is in one room and we're in the other room and we're just kind of going back and forth like you know she's making records in there we're making records over there

single ladies is the first record we did you know when we came in because we were just I mean we were fired up man like because we were also you got to understand we're also on a studio bus

like so we got all this creative energy and then we had gotten timbreland's studio bus so we're making the electric red album while we're on the bus you know so now it's like be in new york come on of course we're ready so um i called my cousin Sean Sean Kay and I was like yo going to studio with Beyonce was like I need some new drum sounds bro like send me some new drum sounds So he said me He's like I got you And this is MPC 3,000 stuff So it's not like just trading sounds

It's like you gotta send it Make the disc send the disc Like gotta meet like Federal Express it to New York All that So we get the disc Put in the sounds Make the beat

I'm about to throw the beat away Because I'm not used to the sounds So I'm like I'm going to like go to the next one And dream was like What are you doing dog Like I was like I'm about to start another

And he's like The hell you are I got a whole thing song written that shit in my head. He's like, man, turn the mic on, man. He's like, drop the track in and turn the mic on. He was like mad at me. Like, he was like kind of frustrated. Like, what are you talking about?

You're about to do another beat? And I'm like, all right, well, put it up. And then shit, man. He's like, I don't know this thing that was the first thing that came out of his mouth. And he wrote the record and we customized the record, which is why it has so many unorthodox things in it.

like it's like the bridge is like six and a half bars or some crazy stuff but we you know we just we do things out of field you know we like dream and i we weren't scared to try stuff like we would change the the pitch of the keyboards all just for the bridge to make them go up like were you like is that did the key change no it didn't change it's just sharp as hell right now you know but um yeah i mean that that situation was just a magical situation. We did the record. Tata immediately came in.

He heard the record. At the time, I think when we were working, I don't think Beyonce really had a plan for making a record. I don't think she was making a record. I think she was just wanted to get in, right? And Tata comes in and he goes, he looked at being, goes, you're going to have a really hard time not putting that out.

He's like, I know you. And it's going to be a hard time. hard for you not to put that one out like so. And sure enough, so we went over and we played the record. We played it. Stargate was in the other room because at this time, it's like a lot of rock nation synergy. So it was very common for us to be in the studio with Stargate at the same time, you know, because if we were working with Rihanna or whatever, a lot of times they would be in the other room as well. So it was, so we walk over, we play the record. Matthew Knowles there. And, uh, like sitting in the back and you come in, we play the record.

Everybody's like, I love that. Like, that's really cool. But, like, kind of like, you know, like, it's a little left to center. So everybody kind of knows it. But they're like, that shit's dope, you know. And then Matthew Nell's goes, what's the name of it? We're like, put a ring on it. He's like, why the hell is it called put a ring on it if you keep saying all the single ladies?

And so that's how it became single ladies put a ring on it. You know, just because he was like, no, it should be called single ladies. It's a good example. When you're a producer and you put out and you finish a track that you think sucks, or if you're a songwriter and you have a concept that's really weird and like it's hard to bring up in a session, those are the ones that are going to be different because they're going to be the one that, because you're doing full albums constantly putting out music to create something that's different. than the other songs that you're putting out.

Even when you do a whole Mariah album or a whole Mary J. Blige album or whatever it is, you still have to have one or two of those songs stand out from the rest of them. Yeah, absolutely. So, like, those are going to be the ones that are probably, you know, some of those are going to be the ones that are just different. Maybe not better than, just they're going to be different. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I think that was the case with Just Fine. I mean, just fine on Mary Jay Blige's album was a comprehensive. completely different perspective. Mary historically had been a little bit upset. You know, she's always kind of like had a vibe. And I thought the concept of that record is saying, you know, she had come through all these different things. And here's, you know, you would just, you know, be without you is the biggest record. And, and now here it is. I'm just fine. Like, I'm, I'm okay. I made it through these trials and tribulations. And it's all right. Let's have a, let's have a party. And, And one of the things that I love so much about that record in particular is that, you know, just going to a Mary J. Blas show and someone that established and that has so many hits and to know that you created a moment in her show that's always going to be either the last song or the second to the last song before that show is over is it was a huge accomplishment for me, you know?

before I get to the next phase of of hits because I think there's like this there's another step that's interesting are you able to enjoy any of this at the time like you're in the middle of being in a studio and you're constantly doing the next song did you ever stop and realize that you're working with the best of a generation

or were you like well man we got to go in the studio we got to write a hit we can beat this, we can beat this, we can beat this. And you're like, oh, hey, B, hey, Jay-Z, hey, like, whatever it is, Mary, Christina Aguilera, Sierra, whatever it is. These people are just living in your life. I think for me, I really enjoyed it.

I enjoyed it. Like, because that's the type of time that I spend in it. That's the type of lifestyle that I live, whether the cameras are on or not, and whether it's Beyonce or the, or the next Beyonce, it's like, I'm living the life that leads to the next thing. And I've always led that life of dedicating myself to that craft of music. And it's what I love to be doing.

And to have a career where every day starts with silence and can end in magic, the possibilities of that are the people that I've met and the relationships that I've built, the mentoring that I've been able to do, the lives that I've been able to change, the trajectory of thought processes. There's so much that comes from being in the studio other than just the songs. So sometimes even when the songs aren't manifesting themselves to chart toppers, what I am building is a lot of relationships, a lot of perspective, and things that ultimately, I think, make me a better person

and make the people around me better people by us being able to have conversations through songwriting of different cultures and things that people may, these people may understand this and these people may understand this, but when you're trying to get to that common goal and you're using language as the, as the, as the tool, I think a lot of times there's, there's just a lot of camaraderie that goes on and being in the studio. And by me not having, by me not having like success right off the bat, I never lost track of the fact of who I was in the room with.

Like, I knew exactly the magnitude being in the room with Ryan Carey. And I wanted those moments in Mary J. Blanche and Christine Aguilera, all of them. And those were the special times. Like, in my most memorable sessions sometimes don't have a hit attached to them. But, you know, my ability to build a relationship with Celine Dion so that when she works on albums now, whether I'm hot or cold, she always picks up that phone and says, hey, I know what you do. You know, Lionel Richie, you know, those types of situations. So there's so much great stuff that comes from it.

Legend has become really over the years. And we've not even, I don't even think that we've had a song that has stuck yet. to make one of his projects. But just it's all of that. It's like even, you know, it's just all of that camaraderie that gets built when you can sit down with people who genuinely, genuinely care about their craft and care about music the same really deeply. The way that I do and the people that are around me is just,

I mean, I had to take in every last one of those fucking moments. Yeah, I mean, your collaborators obviously feel the same way because your discography is filled with people who keep coming back for songs. It's not the same thing as, you know, one-off songs or one-off albums. You know, the amount of songs you've had released with the same artists are each one of their own catalogs, which is pretty impressive. But one artist that I feel like we have to talk about before we get into some of the business side of your stuff is Justin Bieber. Because it's sort of an outlier.

One thing that's incredible is you're really good at. helping women tell their stories. There are a lot of songs with a lot of women. You know, it's really interesting thing. So one I was going to ask, why is that? And then also the experience of being Justin Bieber's first single that really breaks, like kind of breaks him. So both those things, I guess I want to talk. What was the second question? Well, one is like the fact that you have so many, so many women as collaborators and so many

these artists, something you do helps them tell their story that's different. I know producers where it's mostly men, but it's not this way. Why are you so good at writing for divas? And, you know, so I wanted to know about that. Those are totally separate. Gotcha. Well, I think it's interesting that you notice that because it's kind of like a joke now when I work with new collaborators and they're like, who do you think this is for? I was thinking, you know, throw out a name to be a guy. I was like, well, you know, if that's what you want to do it for, I said, but honestly, generally, I don't even think about men when I think about records.

Even when they sound like a man record, I'm like, well, Iiana can sing that. You know what I mean? No, I think I'm really attracted to, I'm really attracted to the diversity, the things that women can do away from the song. as it pertains to makeup, styling, like all the art that goes with it. My mind has always, and what my sound sounds like, I feel like has always complimented women better. When I got in the industry, that was who I really wanted to produce. It was always about trying to get on the Whitney's, the Janets, the Mariahs, the Marys, the Marys, the Marys, the Marys, you know, Christina, Brittany.

So that became the list, that became the hit list. And I was like, I got to work with every last one of them. And I was able to accomplish that, thankfully. And then so then the criteria just became after a while, I was like, well, if I'm going to work with a man, he's got to be crazy. So that just put it to the ushers and that put it to Justin Bieber, that put it to Frank Ocean in that space. you know, so I've worked with male artists. It's interesting, you know, I think here's what I was saying. When I'm a work for hire, I like to work with female artists.

But I love to, for the deep dive, then I can get it. If I can get enough equity on a project like Dream or Frank Ocean, where it has layers. And it's not just about coming in. doing whatever it needs to be sold, then I like doing the deep dive with male artists where it's like it's more encompassing and we can get some different thoughts out there and what a different perspective than what's happening out there. You know what I mean? So I think that's kind of what it is. And as far as Justin Bieber, Justin Bieber was just Scooter Braun from Atlanta, not from

Atlanta, but was living in Atlanta, came up through Atlanta, and ultimately that was my guy. We had took a couple of swings on a couple of projects had tried to, you know, whenever he had a project, you know, I have a studio and he would come through Asher Roth or whatever, and I would, you know, help him put that together or get good mixes for him and all that kind of stuff. And then we had this other artist, these two sisters, twins that we were working with trying to get signed Britt and Alex. We weren't able to really get that off the ground, but we just had a lot of respect for each other. And, you know, when I was up at Def Jam, because we had quite a bit of things going on up there, success-wise.

I happened to be in on a meeting one day. And I was up at the meeting, and, you know, the response to, they were going through the roster, and the response to Justin Bieber wasn't a favorable one. the time. Nobody really knew who he was. And I was like, well, that's my guy's scooters, like, project. Like, so let me, you know, like, if he needs music, you know, if music, if you're not sure about the music, like, I'm on fire. I'm at Def Jam. That's my friend. Let me do the music. You know, like me and Karen Kowat and Chris Hakes went off and kind of did the music. And, you know, I didn't even realize, you know, to give you an example, like, of where,

I didn't even realize it because, you know, we were just so on the grind trying to make shit happen that, you know, I was in Nashville, the seat of the country music awards last year. And Scooter was there. And he was like, yeah, like, I'm going to introduce you. He introduced me to Max Hull. And he was like, I want you to know, like, I might not be here if it wasn't for this guy. He financed the first Justin Bieber album because they wouldn't, they wouldn't pay for it. The EP. first. And I was like, damn, that's right. Like, we didn't even, like, we didn't even get paid for those songs, like, on the first EP. Like, it was really like a renegade project when we did one time. You know, it was really like us against the world. And I was just trying to get the kid a record. And then I noticed that he was famous because, like I told you, my family, we've been around this our whole life. So I got a lot of young nieces and nephews. This kid's never been out before, never had a release. And my nieces and nephews don't come to the studio. And I come outside. I'm working with the kid. And my whole family's outside. And I'm like,

what are y'all doing out here? They're like, and I'm like, what? And they're like, he's Justin Bieber in there. And I'm like, I mean, I think so. I think that's his name. Like, I'm not sure. A little kid, like, little white kid. cute haircut? Like, yeah. So all my nieces, like, whatever he was doing on YouTube had created quite a gravitational pull. And he had a gravitational pull to him and always has and always will. That is, his stardom is different than anybody's that I've ever been around with the exception of probably Michael Jackson. It's a different level of stardom. And he just had this thing about him and the next thing I knew, like, I can't remember what it was, but I was in the Def Jam meeting and I remember that they had a like a signing for him, like, you know, an in-store.

And they got there and the person from the label actually got arrested for inciting a riot because of how many kids showed up. And that was kind of like, that that was kind of like the light bulb. going off like oh snap like this kid is like out of here right and so um at that point somehow that's when that's when the wheels got really got turning and you know dream and i were able to do the baby record after that i think it ended up selling 14 million copies and became you know the highest selling single in music history at the time i think it might have been surpassed now with the new calculations of how with the streaming and all that but as far as back then that was

14 million real downloads of one single song which had surpassed candle in the wind so that was a pretty awesome moment too um I know we can talk about music on the songwriting side all there but you're you know as an executive and as an a and our person obviously like we're both friends of ricky read, you know, you worked at Epic for a while, you went through that. You know, I'd say as an artist, there's no one that's probably more influential that you signed on the executive side, and you can probably correct me on this. But Frank Ocean is just so big. And it's a different kind of music and a different kind of artist than this generation. Like, we just don't have a lot of artists that putting out music that's not all aiming for a single, single, single, single,

instead he's putting out music. In a way, there's a lot of similarity between him and the dreams, albums back in the day, you know? It is a lot of melody, a lot of interesting lyrics, it's a lot of cool vibes. How did you get involved with Frank Ocean? Well, I got involved with Frank Ocean because, you know, Tab, you know, Tab, A&R, super creative. He has been a collaborator of mine.

He was my songwriting partner for many, many years. And he's gone on to sign some really great talents, Frank included, and Alessia Carr as well as others. But he essentially, I believe at the time, was working at a publishing company. And he had signed him to the publishing company. And he, my brother, Mark Stewart, who happens to be my man. your business partner happens to be Tab's best friend. We've all known each other for about 25 years.

Tab brings them to Mark. Mark, I'm pretty sure goes crazy over them. And they set up a meeting for me. And at this particular time, I'm completely, completely slammed. Like, I'm doing Mariah Carey's album. I'm doing Christina Aguilera's movie and her album. and working on and working on a lot of other projects like that are one-offs.

But the two things that are like doing a whole album, Mariah and a whole movie, the soundtrack, music supervision, and all that stuff. So they come in and they're like, we want him to write with you. Can you get in and write with this guy? And I was like, you know,

of course the answer is going to be yes, because anytime they ask me to write for something, I can pretty much know that the person is going to be pretty great. because that's what they usually bring. But I heard his, I heard his music and I said, and I started listening to it, and I was like, man, you know,

I'm thinking to myself, like, I love this guy, but, you know, I'm thinking, like, whoever sings these records, like, this shit is going to be a real major letdown. Like, whoever cuts these records, I don't care what artist it was, I heard something in his tone, but I was like,

every single one of these things is going to be a disaster. So me trying to, And I'm already living in a way, a world that is amazing and that I hate at the same time, trying to get people to capture the world of dreams, essence, and nuances. So here it is. I got this other guy that's bringing this whole other thing, but it's just as specific and just as outrageously good as this other thing that I'm working with that I think is absolutely amazing. So we kind of meet in the doorway and I'm going like this and he's coming like that and I'm like, dude, I'm really, really, really love your shit. I was like, I'm like slam to the gills.

I said, I want to work with you. But the only thing is if I work with you, I don't want to work with you on no writing type shit. I was like, if you'll be my artist, then I'm down. Like, will you be my artist? And that's the way that we can work. I was like, I don't know if you want to be an artist or not, but I said, but the tone, I was like, I don't want to be trying to cut those songs over on nobody because I'm hearing these songs that, you know, I'm like, Jesus, who is this guy?

You know, like, just like special, special, special stuff. So that's the story of me signing Frank Ocean. It was put to me up on a silver platter by my long-term collaborators. We met in the hallway of the studio at the boom boom room that I had rented out for a while. And that's kind of the story. And after that, we just really got into making the records. And, you know, the other big thing was what Frank, you know, when you talk about his ability to cut through without having traditional hit songs, he has so much mystique

and he always makes sure that he writes a hit. It may not always be the song, but it's always a driver into the project. Like, it's just something as simple as calling his album, blonde and dying his hair green.

That's a hit. You know, that's a slam dunk. You know what I mean? And the art and how that looks. And, you know, he's just a very, very smart guy and he understands how to, he understands how to be Frank Ocean. That's the one thing for sure.

And he also understood that he had to be Frank Ocean. You know, like he, the hardest part for me was all those songs that I love that I was so passionate about one of the things that came out from that conversation. He says, hey, well, guess what? It wasn't that conversation. He goes, you know, I'm willing to be your artist and everything. He's like, but I got to tell you, I hate every song I've ever written. So I have, if you want to sign the person who would sing those,

songs, that's not the artist that I am. So then we had to start over. So that was hard because I had, I had the type of, he was writing records, Frank can write, right, right. You know what I mean? Like, even on the early Justin Bieber first EP, like, he wrote some of those songs, you know, on that, on that EP, and he can write. And so when he was brought to me, like, he had, you know, he, he was writing songs with the intention of, you know, doing it from a writing standpoint, which obviously means you take different types of chances. But, you know, I heard songs that move me every bit as much as what I

hear on Bruno Mars' music. And, you know, you wouldn't hear that in Frank's music as Frank Ocean. But as the writer that he once was, like, he has a lot of different gears. there's a seemingly this moment where you start to become an executive more than a producer and a writer obviously like we were talking about before we even started this interview you're back in the studio you're back to writing and doing a lot more of that and it's not that you stopped writing but clearly your focus was also being an executive is there a reason why you decided to start to push away from the studio and do you like one more than the other? I think, you know, I think it's a couple of things. I think when you play at a really, really high level,

it's hard to not play at that level. Like, I've worked with, I pretty much checked every box of everything that I wanted to accomplish in the music industry, right? So then you kind of had to decide what you want to do. And what I decided that I wanted to do and why I moved back to Atlanta is because

everything that I had done had come from this to that. This is the biggest stars in the world now. Like no one can walk down the street. And I, figured out that the only way I was going to be able to get back in the studio and love the studio was to do that with new people and bring that same skill set that I've always brought to those

people that propelled that type of success to new people because, you know, it's harder when things get really big like that and it's like you're in Paris during fashion week chasing somebody around for a verse like, you know, and you got to sit there for like five days why they're like, you're like, you know, I got, I got shit to do. Right? You know, like, I don't have time to do this. Like, you know, so I think ultimately that was part of it. I think it's always been my, I am a huge fan of L.A. Reed.

Being influenced by L.A. Reed definitely put me on that trajectory of all. always life after music. Like, I just saw that as him being my mentor and being someone close to me. That's something that I saw up close and personal from him. And it was something that I really wanted to do. I just had to decide how I wanted to do it and how I could do that on my own terms because being an executive is really, really good. And it can be really, really great.

But I really like to win. And I like to win all the time. And I'm not cool with anybody that I sign. I want to see them win. And I can't necessarily be excited over here with something doing very well over here and this doing not doing well. And knowing that the same efforts aren't given into all things. And, you know, from that standpoint, it was emotionally tough. for me, which is why I just kind of like, I had to figure out exactly how it wants to go about doing that.

Yeah, I mean, that obviously makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of us feel the need to go also to need to be part of the executive side of things, you know, to see if that's the right path, you know, but a lot of us are also songwriters. And I can't imagine not being in the studio at the same time, you know? Absolutely. And that's that's what the vision is for what I'm doing now. It's like, you know, you have all this skill set. And it's like, man, I want to, I just decided, you know what, I'm ready to get my Dr. Dre on kind of vibe. Like, you know, I want my music to, I want to create my music here. I want to put my music out here. It's like, let's see, let's see what all this skill set being at, you know, one or two addresses can really do. And I'm help, I'm A&Ring. I'm consulting for people. and I'm producing records for the things that are on our label and that's kind of the vibes. It's like I was a huge fan of what happened out in the face records from a creative standpoint and the artist that it produced and all those types of movements that have come out of online on whether that was so, so deaf that led to the, the Bratt's career and bow wow and germane and jagged edge. And it just takes someone with a vision to get someplace. be there and be comfortable with the successes that you can have where you are because,

you know, while L.A. is the big game and it is the entertainment capital of the world, you can make a fortune doing music at a high level from Detroit as well as very gaudy-proofed. You know, and at the end of the day, like I've seen in this business anytime that anyone has ever really sat, that was talented and focused in and put their craft in a specific area. I've always seen very favorable returns when you get comfortable with the type of success that you want to have. And when I really looked at how Jermaine Dupree built his situation, I was like, wow, Jermaine Dupre pretty much made records for Soso death. And then if you liked what Soso death did, he would pick up clients based upon Mariah Carey becoming

one of his main, main clients or, like, I wanted those records. She wanted those records when you listen to the records that they made together early on. Like, those are escape records. Like, she clearly liked escape, right? And she liked that do-d-d-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. That's all like, you know, the be-my babies and all that stuff, you're like, I see where that comes from. And sometimes you have to have your feet on the ground in order to have the thing

that the big, big stars want. And that's even with my own success, when I was locked in down here with Dream and Esther Dean and Frank Ocean and those people, that's when I was able to swing the pendulum our way through musically, our way to get where the things that we were thinking about and the way that we were hearing records was able to cut through. And we were able to have that time that run and music. music three or three or four years, however long it was where we were really leading.

And that's a much more fun place to be in the music business from is leading versus trying to catch up. No doubt. In our last segment, we're going to do a five for five. I'm going to list five people or things and just tell me what comes out of the top of your head. My favorite on this list is somebody who I think gets the least amount of credit, not from you, but from the industry his impact on what you've done. But Kukhorel.

What? Genius. He's a genius. He really is. Like one word or like? Yeah, you can say whatever you want. I mean, there are no rules. No, I mean, I think I think Kook is a genius and I think he really helps artists find their voice.

And I think that's really, really important that he helps artists find their true voice. one of the greatest of all time as a vocal producer. Yeah, it's like when you mentioned Stargate and it's like the way McKell can do vocal production or the way that like when you find like some of these big writing teams like there's always the person who who just understands how to produce vocals and you don't think about it because you're like, oh well let's just throw some auto-tuning compression and that's fine but it's just not really. Like there's something intangible about what what the...

Yeah, I mean, that was part of being a production company. You had vocals is what made how you sound that advantage was part of the reason why people wanted to work with you. And, you know, that advantage, I had several advantages that on my teams exclusively, and Kuk was one of them early on in that run. It was a very, it was just superior vocal production that led to the dominance of some of those records. Yeah. Legend. The dream. Like, unmatched. Like, I think he's like, I think he's a freak of nature.

Like, to be able to write fancy, to come up with concepts like Holy Grail, to write girls who run the world, partition, love on top, baby. The titles, like, his titles, his thought process, his ability to look at pop culture and wrap it up in a song, I think, is unmatched, especially being able to do it from hip hop all the way to pop. Mark Stewart.

Man, that's, Mark is a genius, too. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, managers are about creating opportunities. And most importantly, setting you up, setting your life up, setting your money up, creating wealth. And one thing I can say about our crew, everybody that ever worked with us is paid. It's very well paid. And we don't have any broke stories over here. Like, you know, we've made, we made a lot of records. But we got paid a lot.

And I really, really thank him for putting us in that position to making sure that we owned our publishing, you know, making sure that, you know, Dream has never had a publishing deal. You know, that was a really big thing, you know, too, when you start talking about the songs that he has and the things that he's created and creating the, you know, had a lot to do with the Coquerel career. that position didn't exist at the third party with a separate check and a separate point. And that business was carved out and managed and created by Mark and Judy early on in that run to make sure that our camp was getting paid and that people felt validated. And that, you know, we fought hard. You know, when we walked in the door with Rihanna, Rihanna didn't not want to work with Kook. You know, she had a vocal producer and, you know, and since then, since that time when she had that session, she hasn't made a song without him. So, you know, those relationships, those, that kind of going to Jay Brown and having those real conversations and digging in and fighting and saying, look, if you don't want to use the coop, then we ain't doing the song.

Like, those are the types of things that, you know, you can't put your finger on. So shout out to Mark for like, you know, Mark and Judy have managed me since I was 15 years old. Judy and I went to high school together. They're married. And it's just been, it's been pretty amazing the whole time. Then let's keep going with the family to Lainey Stewart. Lainey Stewart, he's the one that he's how it all started for me. Without him, there would not even be the vision of being in the record business,

Additionally, our family was in music, but like I said, I spoke a lot about church and jingles and things like that. But he was the pioneer that wanted to make records. He was the person that I saw. So he was the, he's the mentor. He's the kind of the captain of the Stewart family clan and just the whole, even the mentorship that goes on, what it means to be associated with myself or Red Zone or RZ3. or any iteration of a company that we're doing, there's always not only the music, but there's also the accountability,

there's the professionalism, there's the experience, and there's knowing how to make really good decisions of how to adventure a career for longevity. So that's what we get from Lainey. The last one, Red Zone. Shit, man, Red Zone is, that's it. I mean, that was the, that's the mantra. You know, it's always, like I said, it's always no matter what, we could change our name.

We sell companies, things like that. But it's the mantra of doing things that give you an opportunity is very, very important. And we, the Red Zone as a buzzword for us, it's like, we know when we're not in it. You know, that's the other part that you got to know is like, I'm on the 40. I got to get to the 20 so I have a shot. You know what I mean? It's a real literal football term. So it's a quest to stay in it, but you're not always in it.

But if you identify with it, then you won't give yourself excuses for coming up short. And that's a big part of being successful in this business is that, you know, you got to put pressure on yourself to know that, hey, you know what? Nobody's not trying to. No one is trying to keep me out of this business. I'm just not writing big enough hits to kick in the fucking door. And that's the game. And everybody who we know who has a name and that has a, whether it's Ricky Reed, whether it's Max Martin, whether it's Dr. Luke, whoever the fuck it is,

they kicked in a fucking door. And there's no way around that. When you listen to Polo to Don's music when he came out or Jermain Dupree or these people that, like, from my era and my generation that, we're talking about you listen to the first impact of what you heard and it was nothing like that in that moment for me was different because it was umbrella and I was like 10 years into my career so I was a little bit of a late bloomer but when I go back and listen to Dallas Austin working on Motown Philly and ain't too proud to beg and the energy of those records he's kicking in the door

and the same with organized noise coming in with Outcasts and Goody Mob and cell therapy and all those records and all that they're kicking the fucking door down and you listen to I kiss the girl. It's like they're kicking the door down so yeah is it hard to get in do people sometimes you know like you know you hear all the time people are like oh the industry this the industry that no it's like you got to kick the door down to get in and once you're in it's cool you'll understand the level that you have to play at but it's hard to identify with something that you've never experienced. Yeah, something you said early on,

like once you get used to being part of records that have a certain quality and you start seeing songs react in accordance to the quality of the songs, you know, if your career, if you're, you know, you just start setting that bar of like, I can't, I don't go if they try to write songs. You know, I have plenty, there's so many songs out there.

It's like, there's, we say this a lot, but there's so easy to, write songs. Really hard to write hits. Really hard to write hits. But that means that you have to be focused and you have to like, there's a certain purpose in that session. They're not like, you're not, yes, you can just have fun when you're doing like a whole week and you're just writing and stuff. But like, show up. Aim for big. You know? And you know, one of the things, one of the biggest adjustments in this industry that I had to make is that, that there are, our People, this is a different time.

Everyone that's coming to the studio is not there for the same reason. When I was coming up, everybody wanted not only a hit, but they wanted a Grammy. It was how you recorded it. It was the presentation of it. Like, you did things not only for the day, you did things for history. Like, I've re-recorded records because hit records are a line on a record because I heard somebody's mouth bump the pop filter. And it's like ultimately when if this record is what I think it is, I don't want somebody to come up and study my work and go, damn, look at that.

You know what I mean? And it's like, it's one of those things that when you care a lot about this, you have to ultimately dedicate yourself to that craft and to that level of craziness, I think, in order to be considered one of the greats. And that's what I'm trying to get in the conversation of some of the greats. And, you know, it's it's rare air. there. So you got to, you have to be elite and there's no way around it. Yeah, man. Well, thank you for doing this. I think that there's no doubt that you're one of the greats. I don't think there's anybody who knows your name, who doesn't think that you're one of the greats. And what's cool about it is like, dude, you're not just one of the greats because of your production or your songwriting or,

you know, being an executive, all those things you're great at. But it's because you treat the people around you with respect. It's the fact that people behind your back really love you, you know, and the fact that when your, your crew of people all did get paid and do get paid and that there's, there's not this story of like, oh yeah, but you can't write with them because the big guys eat the, you know, the big fish, eat the little fish. Like, that's not what's happening. You guys are fighting for each other.

And it's, man, it's, it's always cool to be around you because you're, you're a very smart guy and you're very accomplished because you're fucking motivated and it's exciting man i mean like we're all in this trying to just you know we're we're all hustling together we're all trying to do our own thing but it's fun to it's it's always been fun to watch your work and it's fun to be in the same business as you thank you man and you as you as well man i i'm i'm so glad we got to reconnect this is so cool that you're doing this and And I'm looking forward to reconnect, especially musically and all that kind of stuff. Because it's been a minute.

But I'm back on that shit. And it's really exciting time. And I would love to get you even down to Atlanta for a week or so so that you can see what's going on down here once this is all over. There you go. Yeah. Absolutely, man. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg's mom, and published by Big Deal Music.

A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan. I don't know.