And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 137: Poo Bear

Episode Date: July 5, 2021

Today’s guest greets everyone by saying, “Happy Birthday.” For as unexpected as it may be, it always incites a smile. Then again, everything about the two-time GRAMMY® Award-nominated singer, songwriter, producer, and entrepreneur is just as unpredictable. His gracious demeanor belies a downright unbelievable career. Earmarked by blockbuster smashes such as Justin Bieber’s “What Do You Mean?”, Usher’s “Caught Up,” Dan + Shay’s “10,000 Hours,” and Chris Brown’s “I Can Transform Ya” [feat. Lil Wayne & Swizz Beatz] as well as the 13-times platinum “Despacito (Remix)” [feat. Justin Bieber] for Luis Fonsi and Daddy Yankee, his catalog has registered sales of over 350 million records worldwide, dozens of multi-platinum certifications, and 100 billion streams and counting. Our guest has worked with artists ranging from 112 and Lupe Fiasco, to Jack Ü (Skrillex & Diplo), J Balvin, and DJ Khaled, from J-Lo, Mariah Carey and Billie Eilish, to Ed Sheeran and Zac Brown, among many others. At the same time, his entrepreneurial portfolio includes Black Star Burger, HFACTOR water, Wonderbrett dispensary, gaming team 100 Thieves, and his own Bearthday Music record label. As of late, he signed a joint venture agreement with Def Jam Recordings and released his latest single, “The Day You Left” on June 11 via BMG! And The Writer Is… Poo Bear!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www.com. Welcome to End the Update is. I am your host, Paige MacDonald,

and this is your weekly music industry update. Pung Shioch is stepping down from his role as CEO of Hib, formerly known as Big Hit Entertainment. Hybe America will now be operated under two branches of leadership between CEO, Lenz O'Yoon, and CEO Scooter Braun. American rap star NLEC Chapa, also known as Bryson Potts, has been sued for copyright infringement by fellow rapper Kilo I. Lee, over his track, Make Em Say, which was released in August of 2020. Reservoir has acquired the catalog of legendary rock producer Tom Wormon.

The deal includes 100% of Wormon's producer rights for all of his works, including the number one billboard Hot 100 hit, Every Rose has its thorn by poison. As we've all been impatiently awaiting updates regarding Britney Spears, Bessemer Trust has been asked to resign as co-conservator of Britney Spears' estate. Britney Spears has also been invited to testify in front of Congress by Matt Gates and other GOP Congress members. The Small Business Administration has delivered $1 billion in shuttered venue grants. Without surprise, Instagram is leaning into the video world, similarly to competitors, TikTok and YouTube, by allowing users to post full-screen videos in their feeds. Curb Records has sued Tennessee governor over anti-trans signage law.

The indie label says the law spreads the state's preferred message of fear and intolerance towards transgender people and falsely portrays them as a threat. The new California budget includes $150 million for, independent music venues. Motown Records has hired Brian Nolan as both Executive Vice President of the Motown label and Executive Vice President of Marketing. Wow, this is amazing. Yale Drama School goes tuition-free thanks to David Geffen's $150 million gift. Louise Vasquez becomes the youngest soloist to top tropical airplay charts with his song Tufon. TikTok has extended their maximum video length to three minutes. Mass Appeal has hired Jessica Rivera and Jena Megs to lead music content.

Jenny Pfaff has been promoted to Senior Vice President, head of Global Strategic Integration and Operations at Warner Chapel Music. Christian Johnson has been promoted to Senior Director of ANR at Hypnosis Songs Group, the U.S. entity previously known as Big Deal Group before Hypnosis acquired it last year. B2B Music Streaming Technology Company, Tuned Global, has signed a deal with social media app, Laika, to provide the technology to integrate an immersive music streaming service within its app. Warner Music UK's Atlantic Records has entered into a joint venture with Ireland-based trusted entertainment, home to rap, hip-hop, and drill artists. Dan Goldberg, senior vice president

at Warner Music Artist Services, is exiting the company after 12 years. Primary Wave Music announced on June 23rd that they have acquired Aaron Bruno's shares of Owl Nation's music publishing catalog. C-Sack unveiled the winners for its 2021 Latina Music Awards, giving Sony music publishing and its songwriter's top honors for last year's body of work. Country songwriter Jenna Paulette has signed a global publishing deal with Seagale music. Producer and musician Sam Felt has teamed up with independent music publisher, CTM Publishing BV, to launch his own publishing company, publishing company, Heartfelt Publishing.

Victor Martinez has signed a global publishing deal with Warner Chapel Music Spain, the music publishing arm of Warner Music Group. The Go Forward deal spans Martinez's full catalog. A big thank you to Haley Evans for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne the Writer Is. Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's guest is a multi-grammy nominated smash tacular.

superstar songwriter producer. If you don't think you've heard his music, guess again, because it's impossible to miss. His catalog has registered sales of hundreds of millions of records worldwide, billions and billions of streams. And although this guest has dozens of multi-platinum certifications with some of Pop's biggest stars like Justin Bieber and Mariah Carey and Usher, He is also an extraordinary artist with an extraordinary voice. From originally Connecticut, this guest is an entrepreneur who greets everyone by saying one very important phrase most of us only here once a year. And the writer is, happy birthday, poo bear.

Happy birthday. Hey, man. Where did the happy birthday thing come from? You couldn't be like, it's very famous. Where does this happy birthday thing start? It really started from me being really shy and being insecure and being a weirdo and remembering, introducing myself to people. And I wanted people to really understand that I was weird and shy. So in my mind, I just said to say happy birthday just because I was like, you know what, if I'm going to be strange, I need to do.

it from the very beginning from the introduction. And if doing that, you know, in doing that, hopefully it makes somebody else that I'm, you know, meeting comfortable enough to be themselves and not introduce, you know, me to their representative, but actually, you know, introduce me to themselves. So me being, you know, that happy birthday was like my icebreaker, my, you know, it's like, I'm weird. And if you're weird, too, it's okay to be weird because I was just weird right in front you in real time. So it started off like that, right? Then it evolved into a lifestyle of, you know, me feeling like really, literally my birthday is every day. And every day we wake up, you know, we have to treat it like it's our birthday and really, you know, really like live it.

You know, live every day like it's our last, you know. And at the same time, you know, be able to give good energy and put those frequencies out to the universe. And once a week, when I say happy birthday, somebody is usually somebody's actual birthday. once a week. So that's like a fun fact. You know, it's cool because people are like, oh, how'd you know? I'm like, I don't know, man. And I really didn't know. It's just my greeting. That's amazing. Okay, so speaking of your birthday. Yeah.

You were born in September. Yeah. Right around when I was born. We don't have to go through years. Really? I'm only like, I'm like six months after you. About the same age. How many months after me? me? I'm April 8th.

Oh, yeah, April. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. Happy birthday. Hey, thanks, man. Thanks, and happy birthday coming up to you, man. Thank you. So, you're born in Connecticut. Connecticut doesn't seem like the kind of place where, you know, I mean, you know a lot. You're obviously not too far from New York and Philly, and those are, and, you know, even Boston, like some great famous musicians out of all those places. Why Connecticut?

Are your parents' musicians? Were they? No, nobody in my family. Nobody in my family is a musician. I have one cousin that's really, really a lot older. He was a songwriter. He wrote for, I don't know him. I just know he's my cousin, but he was a writer.

But he's the only person that I could really trace in my family that I was in the music business. Outside of that, I was definitely an anomaly. family in the family to do music. And New Haven, Connecticut, oh, man, one of the poorest cities in America. Definitely no, zero opportunities in New Haven for musicians. So it was a blessing that a tornado came in 1989 on July 9th and destroyed the apartments that we lived in me and my mom and my brother, and we were left homeless for a while.

And from there, you know, the, we slept everywhere. Church raised money, gave us like $4,000. And my mom decided that we would move to Atlanta, Georgia. And Atlanta, Georgia was, like, the new mecca of the South. It was the New York of the South. And there was a bunch of kids and a bunch of, you know, artists, young artists coming out of Atlanta, like ABC and Chris Cross and a lot of kids. So moving to Atlanta was where the opportunity for me came about to get into the

business for sure. Let's go back one step. You know, you were saying this tornado came and, you know, thank God this tornado came. That obviously says a lot about the situation you were in before for there, you know, to be appreciative of a tornado to come in and really set you on a new direction. What was it like growing up, you know, before the tornado? now? Before the tornado, my dad was there from like age, ages zero to seven. My dad was there. And it was cool. You know, we were poor. We struggled, but I didn't really know it. You know, my mom, dad did a good job of keeping us, I'm just keeping that out of our minds. And that's not really just knowing that we were less privileged. We were underprivileged.

It was tough. My dad was, I was in church every day. My dad was a preacher, so we had to go to church every single day, even when it, you know, it wasn't Sunday. And I was cleaning up and every day cleaning up. And then my parents were kind of, they were, you know, they were, they were at odds with each other. They, you know, they were violent. My dad was, you know, unfortunately was abusive.

And, you know, everybody makes mistakes. I love them. I forgive him. But at that young age, I saw. You know, a lot of things I really shouldn't have seen. And so when my dad left and my dad got divorced for my mom, it was different. It was weird. But then it was like two weeks after he moved out was when the tornado came.

So it was like one thing. Like my dad left. And then back then in like 89, there were no cell phones. There was no people, you know, most of people, most people didn't even have a landline. You know, so when my dad left, that was it. It was not like, it wasn't like I could find him or anything. So he left two weeks later, the tornado came. And that was like a really, it was a dark, dark turning point.

But for me in my life, everything that's been negative has turned into something positive. So that tornado, you know, left us homeless for a year. We slept everywhere. But, you know, without that tornado, I don't know if I would be here or I'd probably be in jail. because New Haven, you know, gave you two opportunities for a man of color. You know, you go to jail or you, or you die, you know, trying to feed your family. So that tornado was a blessing of disguise. And when we moved to Atlanta, I got so inspired by all the other little kids groups that, you know,

I just started writing songs and putting together groups in my neighborhood, you know, when I was 11. That's crazy. So when you were 11, you're in Atlanta. And obviously, you know, it was funny. We were just, we were just talking to Tehran not that long ago. We were talking about Chris Cross. And like, Chris Cross for anybody, any teenager in America saw like, oh, my, you could be a superstar at like 12? 12, yes.

It was so inspiring. Even right now, there's no superstar that's 12. No, no, I think Bieber was the last kid. I think he might have been the last kid superstar, you know? Yeah, like every, there's just, there's so much content out there, but it's hard to explain. These guys were, they were superstars when they came out. And being in Atlanta, being close to them,

that must have felt like if a big part of success is attainability and knowing that you can get there. And then to see that, like, of course it'd be like, yeah, I want to write music. Like there's every Every teenager that's that age dressed with backwards jeans There's no question that

That if you were in Atlanta You would write music like that Yeah and and just be you know As an artist like not Not feel like it was an unrealistic goal Just because you know Seeing ABC another bad creation and crisscross

And seeing these kids was like Yo it was like little Dave was eight years old When ABC was out And they had, and they were double, triple platinum. So it was like, they could do it. Then I could do it. It was definitely the best form of, best form of example for me. Just seeing other kids be successful.

It was like, yo, they came from nothing. I'm about to do this. So definitely. I couldn't really see myself being inspired like that in any other city at that young of age, just knowing that realistically there's a chance that I could really make it. And I didn't as a kid, but it gave me enough. open inspiration and just keep on writing and ended up signing my first record deal when I was 12 years old, you know, to a label called Jungle Juice Records independent label. We got ripped off. We got paid. Our advance was in the form of a jeans suit. So, you know, we didn't get any money to sign. We just got like I got one green, one green jeans suit. And my friend got like a golden jeans suit. And together we looked like a sprite in one. What was the name of that group? Young Harmony. And my, and my friend. And my friend got like a golden jeans suit. And together, we looked like a sprite in room.

what was the name of that group Young Harmony and my name and his name was Young and my name was Harmony so how did you go from you know you move there writing songs and performing

is something of a skill set even if you're like I want to be famous or I want to be like them there's the difference between that and actually doing it who's teaching you you know

this is what like at some point if you're getting a record deal, somebody, some adult somewhere says, hey, do you like, you're really talented? Yeah, the kids, so I went through a lot, a number, in like one year I went through about three kid groups that I put together. And the last, we had a group called TWC. Together We Chill.

It was the most hilarious name ever. TWC. And the parents, one of the kids. one of the kids' parents noticed us before rehearsing, and I guess they saw a dollar sign. So they introduced, so they brought us to Keep Sweets,

Road Manager's House, Lonnie Ferguson. And we performed for Lonnie and Louise Ferguson. And they were like, whoa, we want to manage you guys. But we only want you to sing old school records. So we went from like, I was 11, still 11 then, and singing like, La La La La means I love the Delphonic singing the temptations. Just my imagination.

And then from there, our group, we broke up and I actually started going to middle school at McNair Middle School where I met Young, another member, the member that I put into the group. And then from there, it was like, you know what? It was four of us. But then when I met young, when I met Young or Kelvin, I was like, man, I don't want to do that anymore. I just want to do, I want to try something new, which is me. And then Chris Cross was two members. So I was like, once again, it was like, I'm inspired by Chris Cross, just be two of us.

And we started recording, we started recording with a little tape. You know, back in the day, you just have like a cassette tape player with two sides on it. So we would put one cassette tape player on one side and another one on the other side and we would record our vocals through a mic. Well, we would take actually a headphones. and invert, turn the headphone into a mic and record through the headphone ear and then take that track, take the track switch over,

so we got two more tracks left on the cassette. And that was like our first recordings. And then we started performing at a place called Teddy's Live in Underground Atlanta and Diamonds and Pearls. And that was, we were really literally, I was doing the choreography. I was writing the songs. I was doing the engineering.

like I was cutting vocals, putting together the music. And then finally, we perform at this showcase called Diamonds and Pearls that ended up turning into a club called 112 back in a day. Every Thursday, diamonds and pearls showcases. We performed with Monica Outcast before they got their deal, Usher before he got his deal, Goody Maude before they got their deal. Everybody performed at Diamonds and Pearls every Thursday to get there to be showcased to get a record deal.

and we met a guy named Diamond, Diamond D, ended up becoming our manager from that showcase. He brought us to Jungle Juice and when we were 12, 12 and a half. And then from there, you know, we got ripped off, signed our first record deal, put out a song called She's Turning Me On at 12 years old. Damn.

I still got little CDs of it back then. And we, from there, we decided, you know, our manager slash producer slash record label slash everything was like, you know what, you should put two more guys in the group. And that was a lot of time when you had groups like Jodacy, you know, yeah, boys and men, you had these other, you know, four member groups that were really prevailing. And so we added two more members to the group and called ourselves friction. And so friction, I'm recording, I'm cutting vocals, I'm writing, doing,

And we end up getting a record deal with LaFace Records. Oh, wow. I turned 16 years old. We ended up doing a deal with LaFace. And then our manager ran off with our advance. And we ended up getting dropped from LaFace. And so from there, you know, I was still. How did you, like, you know, going, you go to Atlanta, you want to be Chris Cross.

you go and you start a bunch of groups. None of them are totally working out, but you're only 11 or 12. And so it's like, you know, if you're going to have a fallback plan, at least you can go home and you've got your mom, like literally, you know? You know, you go to these clubs like you're saying,

you know, you get a new group, you get a new deal, you get dropped, you've got people taking advantage of you. even when you're 12, which says a lot about parts of the music business and how gross it can be. Worse. By the way, most of those people

who take advantage of artists like that are not working at the level that any of the listeners here want to work at. No, no, no. Those are, you know. Yeah. Why did you not give up? And who, like, what did your mom think

as you're going through getting record deals and all these things? She just always supported, me and she was just always there and she always, you know, dropped, pick me and my group members up and she was our, like, our taxi, you know, she drove us to sessions, drove us to shows. And then my mom, she just never told me that I'm, that I couldn't do it. You know, I had family members telling me that I sucked and that, you know, I shouldn't be doing this. And I was holding my other member group members back. And my mom always just was like,

No, you know, I'm proud of you. I see you're really serious about this. So she just always drove us to studio sessions and shows and anything we needed. My mom was like our personal manager. Who's telling you that you're not, that you're holding your group members back? Yeah, my different family members. That were, you know, people just say they were jealous. They just say whatever they feel.

And at that, honestly, when I was young, when I was 12, 13, 14, 15, I really couldn't sing that well. And I knew it, but I didn't think I sucked. And I had always had like, I always heard this little voice in my head. Even when we were homeless and we were poor and we couldn't, we didn't eat anything, I always would just hear this voice that would say, you're going to be right. You're going to be, you know, great and don't stop. And you're going to be good. And so that would be like this little voice I would hear.

And that would keep me going. and I ended up, my cousin ended up discovering the groups 112 and jagged edge. Ah, peaches and cream. At one talent show. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, my cousin ended up, you know, managing 112. And when I was like 16, he was just like, you know, you could make money writing songs.

And I was like, really? He was like, yeah. He's like, I'm going to put you with 112. And if you guys vibe with each other, then maybe they'll work with you. So I was like, cool. So I went to studio with Duran Jones and Q. And first thing me and Duran came up with was a record call anywhere. We could do it anywhere.

And that was like I was in high school. I had no clue of what I was doing. I mean, I was writing, of course, always from age 12, but not in a professional setting. Like, you know, with a group, 112 was platinum, already with Only You, and they had their first debut album that did that sold, did very well with Bad Boy. So this was my first time really working with a professional group that had, you know, records sold and had a major label, a major deal. And I went in and we anywhere came out and it

ended up going, you know, it went number one on the R&B charts. We went like, I want to say, it went like number two in the Hot 100. I think it peaked. But I was 17. I was 16, you know, So I was in high school. I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want anybody to be like, you know, be jealous with me or treat me like, you know, I just didn't. I'm a Virgo. So I'm like, I'm like sensitive. So I didn't, I was like, I was going to keep it a secret. And from there, 112, I built a relationship with 112 and with Duran.

And also that same session, we did anywhere. I did a record with Duran called Love is Such a Crazy Thing for Pink. It was on Pink's very first album. So that was like in one day. And it was weird enough, they reached out and they were like, how much do we, where do we send a check to? And I'm like, a check for what? And they're like for, you know, for writing and, you know, just for contributing. And I'm just like tripping because I'm like, I don't even know I would get paid anything like that for just writing.

And they literally gave me my first check for love is a day. a crazy thing. It was for $1,200. It's my first check for writing, for a writer, like, for actually writing and co-writing the record. That's crazy. Wait, so two questions. One is, did you end up with any publishing on it, or was it just sort of like, no, we're just... No, I got publishing. I got publishing. I got publishing. So that was the $1,200. That was my first, my first published records. I was 16. It was with pink and we're 112. So you're, you know, $1,200 for anywhere made a lot more. Yeah, but I made, I made a little money off of the record being on a radio or anywhere being on a radio.

It was a hit on a radio. Yeah. How do you go? How do you hide that in high school? Because, okay, so just so you know, well, you know, it takes about nine, nine months for ASCAP money to start coming in. So, I mean, granted I did, I co-wrote the record with them, but I didn't get a large percentage. because it was like my first introduction, you know, it was my introduction into the industry, and that's just the way it goes. So, but I was able, I remember getting ASCAP checks,

and I didn't have a bank account. And I remember taking my ASCAP checks to the check cash in place where they take out 4% of the check. And I didn't care because I'm like, who cares? Like, 4%. I don't even know what that is. Like, I didn't even know how to do that mad. I'm like, just give me cash.

Like, I'm going to check you and give me back money and I'm going to be happy. And the first thing I bought was a cell phone. But I still, like in high school, I still was like low-key. Once I would pick me up from high school and some kids would see it, but then there was a lot of kids wouldn't. So then I got a bad boy jacket, the bad boy in the family. So then it was like, then a lot of people were like, well, how did you get a bad boy,

a real bad boy jacket, you know, from Puff Daddy. And at that time, you know, people started figuring out a little bit. but my teachers were still like, you need to study, you need to do your work because only 1% of people make it in the music industry and you're not that 1%. And that's what my science teacher told me, Mr. Block told me that.

And at that time, he was saying it to me, I wanted to say, I wanted to say, turn on the radio right now because I knew what I was learning what heavy rotation meant. So I knew that anywhere, I was playing every hour on the hour

on every station. So I wanted to say, and turn the radio, like I got a hit record on the radio, but I didn't. I just, I kept it inside. And, um,

at that point, I mean, I make as much as a, as at least as much as any teacher. I probably, I probably at that time with having the percentage on anywhere that I've had, I probably, yeah,

I definitely was making. And I definitely made more than probably what teachers were making. But I'm never been the cocky type. I've never been the one. Yeah. Just even if him, and he said, you know, those were hurt for words by saying I'm not that 1%. But it still was like, I got a record out on the radio right now. So I think I am that one for a person.

But I was so quiet. I was shy. I didn't tell anybody. And, you know, I was able to, you know, get out of. And I went to the very last day of high school, and they told me, it was, you can't graduate because I'm like, why? And you didn't do three ninth grade classes. I'm like, well, as a counselor, wouldn't my counselor be the one to assign me those classes? And they were like, yeah, I was like, so it wasn't my fault?

They're like, no, it's our fault, but you got to do the classes you can't graduate. And I was like, I literally hate school. I hate school right now, but I was doing it from my mom. I was writing songs from I was 12 years old. And then professionally 16 started. And I was like, mom, do you feel like I graduated? And she was like, I do. And that was it.

So I went to the very last day. I didn't drop out. And I was one credit shy graduating from college prep. So they didn't even let me walk on the stage. They didn't even let me come to rehearsal. And I remember there was like, you got to go to summer school. And I was like, there's no way. I just did 12 years of school.

And I'm going to go to school in the summer. So I went on. I had the opportunity to carry bags for 112 on tour. So I went on tour that year. 1998, I went on tour 112 and Babbo and a family to Europe. And I carry bags. I carry 112's bags. And, you know, I hung up their clothes.

And I was their personal, you know, their do boy, their assistant. But at the same time, I was writing records, you know, on the tour bus. So, you know, we had a chance to work on part three, you know. So I did records like Peaches and Tears. cream and dance with me. And I did like 10 records on that album. And it was like I was carrying bags and, you know, I was doing everything. But then at night I'd be up late at night writing records with Duran and writing songs with the guys. So it was like a cool opportunity to travel. I mean, I still got paid a little bit to carry bags. But I was able to co-write a slew of

big records that would change my life when I came back off tour with 112. And, um, Peaches and Cream came out. I remember writing Peaches of Cream and being really hungry. And, you know, I made some money with anywhere. It wasn't a lot of money. And I really was like helping my mom, mom, my grandmother out a lot. So I remember just not having money and being hungry. And me and my brother, we split a chicken sandwich from El Ranchero,

chicken number one in New York. It was just checking chicken spot. I had like a dollar. he had like a dollar or two dollars we had enough to buy one chicken sandwich and we split that and we went to the studio and i remember being so prideful and they were like are you hungry you want anything to eat and i were like no i'm okay you know what i'm saying but then that was the same night that was the same and the same breath peaches and cream came out you know and i was and it was weird because i was literally hungry writing about peaches and cream i was literally hungry i mean here's like a

random anecdote, but I think my first, like, pop single, like the first song I had that actually made it to radio was a song where we interpolated Peaches and Cream. Really? Which is kind of amazing. That's crazy. That's really cool.

Like, the odds of that are really small, but just that bass line, the dun, dun, dun, da, da, it's just so good. Yeah. Okay, so you got, it was like based that whole the universe, the Peaches and Cream world, the vibe of it. Oh, yeah.

I mean, that's, it's crazy because being, you're so young writing songs that, that, that, you know, a lot of times the songs of you right now are mostly affecting people who are younger than you. Because most of your peers are still listening to the songs you wrote when you were younger. Yeah, strange enough. But like, so, so you're writing music in real time, the songs that are affecting an entire generation of normal people, you know, like, you know, I was in. I was in L.A. And it was like every party you'd go to, it would be playing those kinds of songs because that was the same.

That's the eight, you're writing songs for your peers. Yeah. Versus writing, if I wrote songs for, if we wrote songs for our peers now, it would be just not cool. But like, but when you write songs for your,

for who you are at that age, like you were writing the songs. Did you realize that at the time? I didn't. No. I didn't. I never. I never really gave myself a lot of credit and nobody really gave me.

I always got publishing, thank God, but nobody ever really verbally gave me credit until Justin Bieber. Like, it took how many years. So I wrote my first hit in 96. So from 96, 2014, 2014 was the first time an artist. mentioned my name, like, and just said, like, oh, Puber, I, Puber did my record. Puber did my album. So it was a, it was a, it was a, uh, from, um, yeah, 96, 2006, 10 years, so yeah, roughly, basically almost like 14, 15, 16 years of nobody knowing really, um, my credits. And I was okay with it because I just wanted to buy my mom a house.

I didn't care if anybody knew me. I was just blessed enough to be able to buy my mom house and to get my grandmother move us all out of a two-bedroom apartment. It was eight of us. And we, you know, so although I wasn't thinking about the credit. I wasn't thinking about, you know, what I was doing. I was just trying to survive and trying to get my mom. I was just trying to take care of my mom. And I didn't even realize, you know, that nobody had really given me credit until I heard, you know, Usher on TRL talking about caught up.

And he was like, I was in the Lafay's office. I was in the Arista office in New York with one of the NRs. And he was just saying how what he was going through to write the record caught up. And that's when it dawned on me. And I was like, oh, wow, he didn't really. I'm like, me and Ryan wrote this record caught up. But he's, you know, he had ticket and it was like, I understood that he had to make it be like, it came from him. but it was the first time that I was like,

I felt a certain way about like somebody just taking, you know, everything and saying, oh, well, I was going through this when I wrote this. And I was like, wow. Man, it was the first time it affected me. That was probably 2004 when I started. I was like, wow, he really, they. And I was like, it would have just been cool for him.

And it would be like, you know, me and Puber and Ryan did this together. You know, we were, you know, like even to include us, you know what I mean? And I understand that. these fans, they have to think that these songs come from the artist in order to have this connection with the artist and be like, oh, I relate to you, not to this big black guy. You know what I'm saying? So I understood that, you know, the game and that artist had to, you know, play that role. But that was the first time where I kind of felt something about it.

And it took Justin Bieber to really, you know, on every interview he went on, every Ryan Seacrest, Ellen, the general, everything he went on, he was like, poo bear, poo bear, poo bear. And I was like, I felt uncomfortable. I was not used to us. I'm like, Justin, you don't have to say my name. Like, you don't, people don't have to, you just tell them you did the records. And I'm fine.

He was like, no, I want every, I want the whole world to know who you are and how special you are to me. And it was just crazy. And then I appreciate Justin for that, for taking the, for being the first artist to ever mention my name. in public, you know. That's amazing. I mean, I know that one of the issues

that songwriters talk about a lot right now is, you know, this packed thing that's been going around, the idea of, like, artists, you know, who take credit on songs that they didn't write. And it's like, you know, Confessions is obviously one of those very notorious examples of, you know, a lot of brilliant songwriters came together and sang songs

and you had an artist at a level at the time that just started taking massive amounts of publishing and credit on songs that they didn't write. There's a difference between the songs that you had before and obviously you had written hits before but caught up to a whole other level and Confessions is a whole other level.

Confessions is still like one of the highest selling albums of our lifetime. Of our lifetime, yeah. Like not just of the 2000s, literally. of that decade, I bet it's in the top 10 albums sold at least. Just so massive. No, I would say it's number one in that decade.

I would say from 2000, 2010, there's nothing that out sold. Confessions, we did like 24 million units on that album. Yeah, and you wrote, you know, maybe the most famous single on the album. And I guess there's just a, there's sort of like a different responsibility and I imagine the business just in general.

I don't know if you had a publishing deal at the time, but my guess is that you were probably just, you know, you can't get more sought after than writing the biggest song on the biggest album of a decade. Yeah, you know, I had, I got my, I waited. My cousin always told me, like, wait until you have two hit records and then do a pub deal. So, you know, 16 is my first hit record,

and my next hit record was done. I was like 20, 19, 20 with Peaches and Cream. And I went and I did a, you know, I had people trying to do a pub deal with me since I was 16. And I waited. I waited until I had two hits. And then I did my deal with Hitco when I was 20. And yeah, it was, it was like, you know, it's crazy because the publishing deal that I signed, once again, it was nowhere near what I was supposed to get, you know, for what I had done. but just being black, you know,

it's just the way that it turned out. But, you know, for me, and I was in a deal that had a song commitment, which was like, you know what a song commitment deal is. You know, when you have to have, if I do a co-publishing deal and they want four songs to be released in one year, you don't know, but it's really impossible

because you're not in control of releasing those records. You write, I can, I would write two, three hundred songs and on projects that would just be held up for whatever reason. Like, we're not putting out this record until next year. So I went, I was in a, I was, I did a pub deal when pub deals were, were, were really designed for you not to be able to be successful. It was like, we were doing this pub deal so we could take the publishing on these hit records

and you'll never meet your commitment because it's not realistic. When I say four songs to come out in one year, I don't mean four co-writes. I don't mean four songs, that random songs. I mean four songs at 100% on a major label and not just any major label. And the contract is specified. It was four major labels. So it was like I didn't understand what I was signing. I didn't get it until I looked up through the years and I was actually meeting my commitments

and, you know, they didn't expect me to do that. Nobody, nobody expects me to still be writing or be relevant right now after 24, 24, that the average lifespan of a writer or producers, you know, two to three, two years, three years, tops. And then everybody goes on to the next writer, the next producer. It's just the way it goes. It's not even anything personal, but it's just the way it goes. So doing that pub deal, nobody, they didn't do pub deals for people to meet their

commitments. They did them so they could take the copyrights on the songs and then leaves the writers and the producers to go out and really try to figure out a new way, you know, a whole new, probably a new career. I've seen so many writers and producers that from back when I was 16, 17, just come and go. So it's a blessing for me to be able to go through this and go through these commitments, those deals that were humanly impossible to get. out of, I was blessed enough to to meet those commitments and do projects and, you know, and be

able to have, write like 10, 12 songs and be able to do journals, you know, and, you know, 12 out of those 15 songs. And it was really impossible. And they know it, but I was blessed enough to get to a place where I can renegotiate my deal and, you know, where it made sense and some more commitment, it's just recoupment. And got out of that deal.

And, you know, did the biggest admin deal. You know, one of the biggest admin deals in music business history. Blessed is super blessing. Amazing. Do you feel like when you're talking to new writers now, do you say to hold out? Or do you feel like now the business has changed a little bit where people are a little more aware? Yeah, being, yeah, not as dirty as they used to be.

I would, yeah, my advice to new writers is really like, get some leverage, man. And like, don't go into it, you know, just trying, you know, a lot of people really want to be famous. And that inspires, that motivates a lot of not just artists, but writers and producers because they want to be date. They want a taste of the fame. So I would just say, you know, make sure you're writing records and you're getting into this because you love it genuinely. and you have goals that you want to, you know, that you created and you have points that you want to prove, but not jumping at it to just do the first publishing deal that you get offered, making sure, you know, that you have a hit record or a couple hit records that way,

and understanding what those hit records generate, how much money, you know, for your percentage, what does your, what do you stand on making over the next year and a half, two years? years and the industry is so different now with streams, you know, granted, they still don't pay us anything for streams, but it's just really different. So I would tell artists, I would tell a writer, like, wait to you. I have some leverage, you know, work with, you know, work with as many artists as you possibly can, write as many songs as you possibly can. And at the same time, educate yourself so that you know when a publishing deal comes to the table, know your work, know your value, You know what, you know what, you know, if you have 25% on a radio hit record, know what that earns in a year.

Because they could tell you, we'll give you, you know, 200 grand on this pub deal when really, you know, you got about 800 grand coming. And when they do that co-pub, now you don't have 800 grand coming. Now you got 400 grand coming. They're going to recoup that 200,000 and make a profit of 400. you're going to split that 800 after you recoup, if, you know, when you recoup, and they know they're going to recoup or they wouldn't give you the money.

They wouldn't give you the offer if they didn't know that there's money in the pipeline. So I would just say to educate yourself before you do, you jump and do a pub deal. You know, look and if you don't really need money per se, you know, think about doing an admin deal. You know, if I would have been educated, if I had known what I know now,

I would have never done a co-publishing agreement. I would have never done a co-publishing deal. But I had to learn and, you know, through trial and error. But I would just say just weigh it out. If you don't absolutely need money, the only reason why you would do a pub deal is to get money and to give you a loan. It's a loan. It's an advance with a very, very high interest rate, you know, 20, 25 percent, you know, they're taking. And so I would just be educated, man, as a writer and a producer, don't just come into it,

just wanting to be able to buy Rose Royces and diamonds and just let them. let the motive and the, you know, let the motivation come from a real genuine place and be educated in everything that you're getting into. The information is out there for us now. Yeah, I think if you're doing the deal for money, that's one thing. If you're doing the deal because a publisher, you need a team of people who can help you get in the room and do the things that, like, you're so talented that the rooms kept coming to you because everyone... I never had a, I had one publisher put me with one artist, and it was BMG, Shani put me with, set up a lunch for me and Sam Smith. But now, mind you, I had a publishing deal since 20, I mean, since 2001, 2000.

So I wrote Burning with Sam Smith, what, three, two years ago, three years ago. So 17 years. and only one artist did the publisher set up a meeting with it. And it was great. It was cool because it worked out. But they don't really, that's not what they do. They're there for money. It's certainly not a, it does not make sense to do a publishing deal.

If you have either a manager who does what a publisher does or you're the kind of writer who can do, you know, what you do, you know, both as an entrepreneur and just talent-wise. And, you know, just to jump ahead, obviously, like, a bunch of, you worked with a lot of different artists and, you know, Ludacris and Chris Brown and all these, like, amazing people through a lot of the, you know, from Confessions on. Yeah. But it really wasn't into. A lot, a lot of Neo-Soul, Glenn Lewis. Yeah. I guess, you know, did you start developing expectations when you said most writers have,

like two or three years of writing hits. Yeah. You know, what about those, the years between confessions, even though you had like some, you had singles that did really well and certainly in genre specific, but they weren't necessarily pop hits.

And, you know, the songs you had before, that even Peaches and Cream crossover to pop, and you had stuff that were hits on a pop side. Right. But it only... took like 10 years of doing like the grind and writing all kinds of songs that like probably should have crossed over but they don't because of different reasons streaming comes in mp3s do their thing and leave like all the whole industry shifted during that time

after line fire yeah why did you not um like it is so hard to keep up the the 200 songs a year pace. It's hard to do the sessions pace. Did you keep up that kind of, you know, that kind of energy the whole time? I stepped it up. I stepped it up. So knowing, I didn't know that there was a lifespan for writers or producers. Like when I was like in my 20, I didn't know this until six years, maybe six, seven years ago. Somebody was like, yo, you're really going like you're going against all odds right now. And I'm like, really? And like, yeah, the average life. fan is, you know, one to three years, you know, with somebody who has a hit record.

So I didn't know. So, you know, once I figured that out, I just knew that I needed to keep doing whatever I was doing to get me where I was. I needed to do that times 10. So I went from writing 200 songs in a year to writing 600 songs a year. And that's, it seems like a lot. But when you break it down, it's not that, it's not that bad. You know, you do it. If I, if I, I do an average of two songs a day for six days a week. That's 12 songs a week. It's 52 a week. You know, when you do it and you break it down like that,

it's not, and I'm in a zone, so I'm just creating. So instead of me like slowing down, when I found out those stats, I just was like, no, I gotta keep doing whatever I did to get me to this point. And that was living in the studio, pushing myself, challenging myself, being brutally honest with myself saying like, yo, this sucks, this is garbage so I could continue to grow and nurturing my relationships with the artist that I was blessed enough to build relationships with, which for me, I've never been a music industry guy.

Like, I've never been the guy that was like at all the industry events. I never had the relationships with the executives, with the presidents, or the labels up until, up until like 2015 is like when I really, you know, after purpose is when I really started building relationships with CEOs and presidents. But I've never been that guy in the music industry. I've always just been somebody who's been blessed to write hits in the business, but I've never been in the business.

So I just was blessed enough to build relationships. with the artist and they're the ones that for me the artist the label can say everything but if the artist wants what they want the artist gets what they want and for me it's like to have that trust of an artist and then you know for them to believe in me it allowed me to grow and um and to have new goals and new points to prove because i don't want them to get i didn't want to let anybody down I never want to let anybody down. I don't want to let myself down. But, you know, I think because I went the artist's route

as far as building relationships with the artist, it allowed me to have some more longevity than just, you know, being plugged into the labels, you know, because the labels have musical chairs. They change president. They change every year, every year and a half, two years. Everybody moves seats. So it's like you think you're building a relationship with this president.

And next, you know, he goes over here and it's like, wait a minute. And then you're back. And then you're out of the loop because everybody who you've got your relationship with no longer is in a position of power. So my thing was I got to be, I got to have relationships with the artists. They're the ones, you know, they're the ones that have to sing it. And, you know, for so many artists, I didn't charge them. I didn't go into it like looking, thinking about money.

I went into it like, no, you're, you're, I want to prove to you. that I'm worthy of working with you. And doing that, I missed out on a certain amount of money, but I built relationships that, you know, have lasted forever that turned into me being able to take care of my family and a lot of people. So I think that, you know, me not really ever being in the music industry, for say, like it helped me.

And it helped me to stay, to keep my ear to the streets and helping to be not caught up in the hype. The music industry is so much hype, man. And, you know, everybody's kissing your ass. And everybody's like, oh, you're the greatest. And the next to you know, nobody's your friend. The artist that you thought you, you wrote hits for, they're on to the next writer and producer.

So it's like, it's really no loyalty in the music business. So it's like knowing that I'm just always just blessed just to still be here and be relevant somewhat, you know, knowing that everybody's always up and on to the next up. What's next? Who's the next writer? Who's the next artist? So, you know, it's just being able to be realistic with myself.

And prove points, man, I got to prove points. I have to, just because I've done whatever I've done in the last 24, 25 years, it's great. I don't remember. I don't think about my past. Like, outside of these interviews, I only think about the future or I'll go crazy. I can't possibly. I have people playing me songs.

Like, you remember this song? And I'm like, no. You know, it's like, there's no way my mind will hold on to songs and be comfortable enough writing new songs when, you know, so I don't remember yesterday. I did. I cut four records last night. That's crazy, man.

Four songs last night. I mean, you know, when you hear, like, just to go through some of the Justin Bieber stuff, because I feel like that's, for people who didn't know you before, they certainly knew you after the Justin Bieber stuff. And when you hear where are you now, it was the kind of song that changed a lot of the music business. A lot of people were trying to write this song that had a weird time signature.

It was all kinds of like, it was such a vibe. It was just you singing to a track and Justin singing that. One one ball chat. no background, no stacks, no. Yeah. It was like, that song for me, when some people, when people asked, what's the biggest song, what's the most important song of my career? I say, where are you now?

Just because everybody counted, everybody turned their backs on Justin Bieber. You know, when the world, when they went on their, you know, less kill Justin Bieber movement with the media. Every day, it was negative. Like, Bieber does this. And it was good for their ratings. It was kind of like Donald Trump. It was like they hated him, but they loved them because everybody's watching the news.

I don't know anybody watches the news anymore now that he's not present anymore. So I look at it like Bieber, you know, his him growing up being a teenager in the spotlight and them trying to cancel and they canceled him out where you now was a record that that was his comeback song. So for me, after doing journals that was sabotaged and ended up selling records, thank God. But I was like, you know, thinking this is it. Like, damn, I get the work with Bieber and journals comes out and they sabotaged it. And I thought that was it.

I was like, wow, of course, he wants to sing R&B, the pop artist. The biggest pop artist in the world wants to sing R&B. Great, you know, and I did that. And then 2014, where you now came about. And it was just a record that it was special. I didn't know how special it was. and Justin heard it and was like

and cut it immediately and then Scuder sent it out and he sent it to Scrillix and Diplow and they started their group called Jack U when I heard what they what I heard what Screlius did to the beat I was like yo this really comes out this could this could change music

and it came out and it stayed on the charts you know it stayed on the Hot 100 for like 63 weeks and it brought, it was Beaver's comeback record. And, you know, that was, it was a, it was just for me, you know, being a part of writing a song when it was almost as felt as good as writing a record for a new artist that the world loved. And it was like, whoa, they canceled Justin and here's this one song and now he's back.

And then it won his first Grammy. And then, you know, it was like, it was so many different cool things. So I say that where you now was like, for me, it's been one of my, not one of the most highest selling songs, but definitely the most significant song in my career. Yeah, I imagine even what do you mean probably sold more just because of the fact that it was like, you know, it's more of a song song. Yeah, and it was a back. And it was like Justin's back now. Where you now is his comeback record? And then what do you mean?

it was like his official first single when people started to love him again. Do you purposefully write songs that have questions? I wasn't a fan of what do you mean. Sorry, say that again? I wasn't even a big fan of what do you mean. Like when I wrote that record and I wrote it and I was like,

at that time I had already written 110 songs for that project, you know? And I was kind of at the, I was kind of at my wits in because I was like, damn, I've written so many songs. And then I would get a call like, yo, can you go through this and see if you hear anything? And I'm like, so I kind of wrote that one out of from a, I just want to get this over with by, like, I wrote that.

And it was like 25 minutes, 30 minutes, you know what I'm saying? Recorded it and left the studio. I didn't want to waste studio time. And I know how much it costs. So I went in the studio and I wrote this record really fast. not thinking that anybody would like it, because I wasn't that much into it. And then left and get a call from Scooter, and he was like, that record you did, what do you mean? I was like, yeah, it's cool.

He was like, no, that's the first single. He's like, that's his first single. And I was like, no. I said, no. I said, we have. I have, there's 110 of the songs that I wrote. What do you mean? It's not the first single.

He's like, I'm telling you, Poubert. Every time I get that feeling in my stomach, I'm never wrong. What do you mean is the single? And it came out, and it was just Justin's first Hot 100 number one. And it ended up selling like 50, I don't know, it was like 50 times platinum or something like that. Something crazy. But once again, that proved too that I don't really know. Nobody really knows.

Nobody knew that Old Town Road was going to be a hit. Like, nobody could tell me that if he wouldn't Little Knows X with a shopped Old Town Road as an artist. Like, can you give me an artist deal? Even a single deal. They would have laughed him out of every label

in the world. So it's like, that left me, you know what do you mean? Let me realize, like, I don't really know. All I can do is just use my formula, what works for me. And that's it.

Because the rest of it is a mystery. Like, nobody can see him and tell you, but like, yo, that's going to be a hit because it's like, no, you can't tell. So many variables. And then what do you mean? I didn't think was a hit. ended up being a big hit.

So I was like, at that point it was like, I'm just going to write records and, you know, I don't know, I'm just going to write songs. Stick to my formula and continue to be brutally honest with myself. I mean, you become sort of, you're obviously Justin's, you know, most used collaborator. Like, you guys have so much,

so many of these hits end up becoming just together. You know, like he obviously brings you in the room whenever there's a feature or anything like that. Despacito is like a whole other level. That has to be the highest selling song you have even with... Yeah, like 74 million single soul right now. It's like the second highest selling song of all time after Thrill is number one. Yeah, I mean...

It's stupid. We've talked about that song a lot because we've interviewed the rest of the writers on it at this point. And it's just nuts. I mean, you can't, you can't pick it. Again, you can't pick it. And let's just jump to the next one because we have a few, and I just want to throw them out there. I'm the one is also massive, the DJ Collette record.

Yeah, we're about almost diamond with that record, you know. I guess, like, do you, after those 10 years of the expectations being like probably, you know, putting in 600 songs a year kind of work and not having like pop hits to the point where it's almost like you guys can't prevent a song from being a hit sort of what it feels like, you know? Do you have, do you... I never heard of you going to say it like that. Yeah, that's cool. Do you guys feel like it's... Does it just become easy? Well, I can't say it's easy. It's, um, I just don't take it for granted and I don't take it lightly. get comfortable because like even this last project I didn't I didn't write one song on this

justice album you know I I published speeches you know which went number one which is great you know but I just never I just I've I've had the opportunity to work with a lot of artists Justin by far as the most loyal artist I've never I didn't even understand that level of loyalty in the music industry I didn't think it existed but um but even on this justice album I'm like said, like I'm not on this project. So not to say that we haven't, we aren't still right. We don't have more music coming out because we do. We have lots of music coming out. But it's an example of never getting comfortable and never, even though you said it like almost couldn't prevent us from having a hit, here comes a project where, you know, I didn't write one song on there. And it definitely felt a certain

way. But at the end of the day, it's like I have to step outside of myself and look. at what me and Justin have done. I'm like, nor the producer, writer, even Quincy Jones, you know, he got a chance to work on what? Up against the wall and thriller, I think, for Michael. So for me, it's like to be able to say I wrote, you know, I wrote changes every song,

wrote and produced changes, the entire project. Purpose, I did 16 out of the 18 songs. On journals, I did 12 out of the 15 songs. So I couldn't be. I could feel a certain way, like feel left out, but I'm like, nobody's been able to do with me what I've done with an artist before. Like, nobody can say,

or I wrote three Michael Jackson albums, or I wrote three Justin Bieber albums, or I wrote three Beyonce albums, or I wrote, like, so it's just a blessing, man, and I had to, like, step out of it and look at it, not being on justice as a writer and just be like, wow, like, it felt awkward, just because of what I was used to, but it's a blessing.

And it also lit a fire up under myself to remind myself, I can't get comfortable. I can't get complacent. All those things that most people get, do, you know, they fall victim to. I just can't do it because I look up on justice. I'm not on the album. So as much as, you know, we've done, you know, in reality, it's just been a really huge blessing that have done so much.

with Justin. And, you know, we have a lot of music coming out, but I just don't ever want to look at it like, you know, that or ever look at it from this area where it's like everything we do is a hit. I can't because I have to, I'll get my feelings hurt like that. So I'm always like the one that's like, you know, looking at it that half empty, you know, as opposed to half full. And it just saves me. It protects my feelings. And I'll, well, here's, here's some half fullness. You know, before changes, you still had, I don't care, you still had 10,000 hours. And yummy, you got a bunch of Grammy-nominated songs, performances, and all these things on these records.

You know, intentions is massive. It's like, these are really big songs. Yeah. All the songs on changes. Like, it's hard to look at it. Anything less than just massively successful. Thank you. Yeah, we sold like six million records on that album right now.

And the crazy part is, it's like, they shut that. I don't know if you noticed it, but they gave me two singles off of changes. You know me? And intentions. Yeah. And then they shut me. Then they shut it down. So then they went to the pop album because they said pop sales more than R&B.

And that was the movement. It was like JV6. R&B doesn't sell. I'm like, wait a minute. I was like, but we, Intentious is double platinum. Excuse me, Intentious is triple platinum. Yomi's double platinum. Forever went gold.

Wasn't even a single. But they still wanted to prove that Pop sold more than R&B. And it was a blessing. You know, at first I felt really shaded and left out of it. But then it was cool because it was like, here's a real example of real numbers. So we look at changes. We look at what we sold in the first week. We did 270 in the first week on changes on having two songs out.

And you go to justice that just released six radio singles. Yeah. Six. And they did 130,000 units the first week. So what sells more? And my thing is like, my thing is like, why break it up in the genres was when it's like pop is whatever popular, hence the word pop. You know, it's, you know, so it's like if urban and R&B, you know, is popular right now,

then, you know, when you try to put out a record that you feel like it's bringing you back to this purpose era, which was pop, which was when music was in a whole other place when we did purpose. Pop was pop. Pop was like, you know, when you looked at the top ten charts, It was pop. It was predominantly, you know, white artists, you know. And everything kind of like slowly, you know, turned into this urban hip-hop world where now you look at the top 10

and it's very different. The Hot 100 Top 10 is very different than what it was in 2015. So it's just difficult for them to say pop sales more than R&B or urban music when it's like, no, whatever popular is going to be. and sell more. And it was just a cool example just to see that, how they shut me down after two songs on Changers. And then here comes Justice with six songs.

And the only number one on that album was what type of song? The one you, and the one you, no, forget me publishing it. Yeah. It was an R&B record called Peaches. Yeah. So it was like, okay, you put out six records out of the six songs. the only one that went number one on the Hot 100 was an R&B urban song.

That doesn't say anything to anybody. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like you put out all these big, massive video, all these records, and the only one that went number one that's still performing is peaches. So it's like, okay, does pop sell more than R&B? I don't know.

Not right now. I don't know right now. I don't know. I think that whatever's popular sells. Is whatever's popular is pop. That was my point. And it was like, so you want to try to force and make this certain sounding record that you define as pop, but pop is whatsoever. So it was like, it was just cool to be a part.

It was a cool experiment for me to be a part of to write changes. See, because I'm a black, and I, you know, I'm a black person. So it's like, they're not going to, I knew they weren't really going to push it the way that I wanted because it would reflect on me. And they don't want it to reflect on me. They don't want that. You know, so it was just a great example of like, okay, good, guys. Let's look at the numbers. And I know how much you pay.

And I know how much people pay for numbers. I know how much people pay for slots. I know how much people pay for sliding on the charts. I know all of that stuff. So it was like, everybody can pay for things to make it appear to seem as one was bigger than the next. But when you look at the first week sales, we had 100,000, you know, 120,000 more unisold than the album. And justice is an amazing. amazing album. I think

just isn't a great project. It's just interesting how they shut changes down. I have the two singles. And then he got then here comes six singles after that. Still a pandemic. Nothing's changed. Can't use that excuse. Let's go to your project.

I know you've released music in the past, but I just want to talk about our last segment is a five for five. Before we get to that. I just want to you to talk about the day you left, which is

the first single you put out in a long time as an artist, and this obviously means a lot to you. So I want you to talk about that for a minute. The day you left, a record written

by myself and Nabil, Zaid, a poet, intentionally it was really a record that was, you know, the poem was done based on a relationship, past relationship. I read it and I was like, wow, this is beautiful, wrote a new, wrote a whole chorus and put melodies and turned the poem into an actual song. And then it was just like the timing of it. My mom passed away on January 7th. So when she passed away, I just remember sitting before the funeral and thinking like,

Well, the day you left has a whole new purpose now. It's definitely don't think, when I hear the record, I didn't think about a breakup or relationship. I just thought about my mom and the day she left. And it being like this bitter, sweet feeling because I was being selfish, not wanting her to leave and me trying to extend her life by any means. And then her being happy and in a better place. She was in pain.

So it was like these words started. taking on this whole new meaning. And the day you left, just turned into, you know, something for my mom. There was a memory of my mom. And I just couldn't unhear. Every time I heard the song, I couldn't unhear, you know, my mom. I couldn't unsee it. So, you know, I'm proud of the record.

Extremely, I worked on it with Sasha. Sunny, Skrillix worked on it. And I'm just proud to put out this music, especially for my mom. and just to have new music out into the marketplace. You know, I always, like I put out songs, but I'm really, really at a point where, you know, I went through evolution with my weight loss and doing all these things to, you know, be the best version of myself.

And I'm really just excited to put out new music and push it harder than I've ever pushed anything else, in anything else that I've released as an artist. And I'm just excited to see what the response is. I really value opinions. I really value what the consumer thinks, way less than what I value what people in the industry think. One, I don't think you need to judge it on what consumers say

because it's because I think that you can only control so much of that. And I hope that they hear the honesty, I think, in your vocals in it and like the vulnerability in it. And so, you know, regardless of what they say, the performance is honest. And you should be proud of that. Thank you. Thank you. You know, you mentioned the weight loss.

I wasn't going to say anything. But, you know, you've lost a lot of weight. And I don't know if people are going to be able to see you or not. But how did you do it? How did you lose all the weight? Just diet and working out, man, I hired a trainer about three years ago. And, you know, I stopped eating meat like 12 years ago. I started slowly.

For me, this has been like a really slow transformation. It wasn't one of those. I didn't get, you know, the lap band or my stomach cut in half or anything like that. I just slowly, I changed my diet, cut sugar carbs out, cut red meat out, cut chicken out. And then I went raw for like a year, like raw for about a year. Why didn't eat anything cooked any bed, like just dehydrated veggies and crazy diet? And then I started realizing that, you know, those people who got lap bands, the surgeries, how it was, why it was working. It was, you know, because they weren't able to eat as much.

You know, they would put the lap band on their stomach and their appetite would be cutting half just because they wouldn't. They couldn't physically consume that much food. So what I started doing was trying to start treating myself like I had the lap band. And I just started cutting like half my, cutting all my food in a half. You know, so, and it was no carb, no, no only protein and veggies. So I would have, I had, you know, salmon that I'd include some, you know, some fish, some, some healthy fish. I would cut salmon, cut my salmon in half and turn it from an eight ounce piece to a four ounce, four ounce portion. Eat that. Make sure that when I got finished eating that I was still hungry. That's the key. Like we're, as a kid growing up

hungry and poor, we're just taught to survive and be full. So once you realize that, you know, We're never really supposed to feel full. That changed my life and stopped eating for pleasure and eating for nourishment. And then working out every single day, training two hours a day. You know, I never did push-ups. I never did anything. I skipped. I was a kid, I was a guy that didn't want to do PE.

So having a trainer and making, working out a lifestyle and not something that I was forced to do, but I felt bad if I didn't do it. It just changed my life. And then I made it to a place where I just had this skin because no matter if I did 700 crunches in a day, I couldn't crunch the skin away from my stomach from me losing weight. It's just like material.

So that's where I had to go. And I got surgery, you know, where all this skin for me losing weight. You see this was like cut all the way. They had to remove all that skin. Same thing over here. And from there, you know, now, you know, I think all in all lost about 190. 90 pounds.

Damn. It was like an adult. I lost, you probably weigh what, 160 or something? No, I'm pretty close. I'm, I'm, that's, you basically lost to me for sure. I lost you. I mean, dude, of all the things you've accomplished in your, you know, in the last two decades, that's life changing and that will prolong your life in so many ways.

And all the success that you have is great as any musician, because we all. need that, but we all want that. You need to be healthy, and I applaud you on that. Let's do a quick. The last segment is five for five. I'm just going to list five things and tell me

the first thing that comes off the top of your head. First one, 112. The first thing that cuts in my head is peaches and cream. It's so good. Oh, that's so good. Usher.

Usher, oh man, I will have to say, I just have to say caught up. I just have to say caught up because it's just like, I feel like that record, it just survived the test of time. We cut that record in 2002. So it came, it survived two years. And, you know, and then it was the last single, the fifth single off of the album. So I just feel like it stood the test of time. And, you know, even him not being in a relationship with Chile anymore.

That song was about chili. They broke up halfway through the album. So it was like the fact that it stayed. So when I think of Usher, I think it caught up for myself. Let's go with Dre and Vidal. Ooh. Dreh Vidal. Neo-Sou.

Neo-Sole. I would say, when I think of Dre and Medal, I think of Neo-Sole. They, you know, Neo-Sold didn't exist before Drey and... Badal and that whole, you know, Jazzy Jeff Camp, you know, Carl and there's a couple other amazingly talented musicians. Well, and then you get all the artists of flowetry, Jill Scott, all the like that. Joe Scott, Butterfly, Michael Jackson Butterflies. I mean, Glenn Lewis, you know, don't you forget it.

Like these were records that, you know, were played a major part of people's soundtrack of their lives. And I say, neat. When I think of Dr. and Vidal, I think of. they're the ones that created the sound, Neo Soul. I don't recall it, you know, existing before 2000, before, you know, Joe Scott. And they were kids.

Who is Joe Scott, you know? Dude, they were kids. They were kids, yeah. They were just, anyway. Let's go the next one, because we could talk about Drame it all forever. Justin Bieber. Oh, man, when I think about Bieber, definitely it is, where are you now?

Just because you know, that song it was just really special. I don't know if you had heard the Trojan Horse you know the Trojan Horse theory. That record was

I used the Trojan Horse theory for that song. And basically, long story short, I was at odds with Scooter with Justin's manager because it was just weird me and Justin built this relationship.

And I guess it was just some type of a threat there. And so when it got to wear you now, I knew, you know, journals, they shut it down and they kind of, they shut it down. I get it. When I got to wear you now, I was like, I want to try a secret and experiment because I know I wasn't liked.

I know people didn't like me in Justin's camp. So I told Justin, I was like, don't tell anybody I wrote this, that I wrote this on. So when it came out and it was starting to be successful, was when I reached out to Scooter, I was like, hey, how's that one? How's where are you now doing? He was like, it's his comeback record.

And I was like, cool. He was like, but you didn't write that one. I was like, no, I was like, I wrote it. We wrote it together. He was like, oh, Justin didn't tell me he wrote that. I was like, he probably forgot. But it was the Trojan horse. Like I snuck that.

Like, I think if he would have known that I wrote that record, not sure if that record would have existed. I don't think it would have came out. So that was my Trojan horse theory for that one. That's the music industry at its best right there. At its best. That's the music industry at its best right there. Finally, your mom.

My mom, yeah, the day you left, my mom, man, my everything, she supported me. My whole reason to me writing songs and me, you know, being in groups when I was 11, 12 was for my mom. I wanted to be able to, I wanted her to live comfortable. I want her to have a house. I want her to have a new car, bends, and everything, you know, was revolved around my mom. And she was my, my inspiration, my everything. And the day you left, that record for me, you know, like I said, it's just one of those bittersweet records because I know she is well off. I know she's in a better,

a better place. As much as people say that, I know my mom is no longer just laying in a hospital bed in pain every day. And I feel like, you know, the day you left is a great representation of words that,

that my feelings towards my mom and, you know, specifically in the hook when you listen to it. It's my mom verbatim. And so I would say the day you, He left and I think of my mom in January 7th. Yeah, man. Thank you for doing the podcast.

I told you before we started, but it was 2009. It was Father's Day. I get a phone call. I had started working with Dre and Vidal because they liked my band and we had some friends in common and they brought me in to go and write a bunch of songs with them. and it was a Chris Brown session. They said, do you want to come out? And I was like, yeah, of course, but I'm in Chicago.

And I took the first flight out. And I was in the studio. And I didn't know what I was doing with Chris Brown and Dre and Vidal at the time. You know, it was like it was really cool to be in that room. But I didn't know anybody there. And there was one session. We did like, you know, all of us were writing like six songs and a night kind of thing. And they put me in a session with you.

and I remember you, we wrote a song and it was called In the Paint and I don't remember anything about names of songs but I remember seeing how effortless it was and how hard I felt like I was trying to write a song and it just felt like it was so easy for you and it was just an amazing moment to watch that because you're so talented.

Thank you. And after the Bieber situation, you know, whatever it is, 16 years later, no, six years later. I'm, you know, at that point I've now had my own hits. And I see, I see you, I thought of you as like the guy that Drey and it all put me in for one of the six songs or something like that. Yeah. And then to see you have a slew of hits was just such an amazing experience.

Thank you, man. Because it didn't mean, you I'm sure didn't remember that exchange, but I remembered everything because that was one of those few sessions I had had working not being in a band anymore and now being a professional writer and to be in a room with somebody who was so pro and being like, oh, wow, I have something to work towards. And so you had more of an impact on my career than you realize. And I just wanted to say thank you for that and thank you for doing this podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having me on your podcast. It's my honor. And that makes me, that warrants my heart to know that I had any effect on you. And I'm sure we had a great session. I have no idea how this song goes. I do remember, though. I do remember vaguely, though.

Like, I do remember you. Your face looks, like, I feel like I know you already. So that's, you know, that has a lot to do with it. I love that. And thank you for having me on this podcast. It's a blessing to be able to talk to you, especially with you being a songwriter and having, you know, the success that you've had. Just thank you for even doing this podcast, you know, so I think it's great.

And I think that it's just going to get better and better, you know, so congrats on the podcast. And thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah. Happy birthday. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify play list or visit our website at and the writer is.com.

If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.