And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 138: FRED

Episode Date: July 19, 2021

Today’s guest is a multi instrumentalist producer, songwriter and artist who has had 6 Uk No1s, 11 Top 10s and last year was the youngest ever winner of the Brit Award for Producer of the Year. He has been called “a genius” by Brian Eno and “The White Burna Boy” by Burna Boy. A child prodigy, he wrote and produced his first album at 10 and started writing his first Symphony at 14. This was performed by a 50 piece orchestra at his high school when he was 16. His second symphony written aged 17 was performed in London by the Royal College of Music with a 60 piece of Orchestra to two sold out nights. Two years later he had his first No 1 with Clean Bandit & Demi Lovato, followed up immediately with his second with George Ezra which took his first off the top spot. The latter was the biggest selling song of that summer and has become the longest running UK Top 75 song of all time. He also became a key collaborator of Ed Sheeran, producing the bulk of his No 5 Collaboration Project including 3 more No 1s. He is presently writing Ed’s next album. At the time of writing he is not only the #1 selling pop producer in the UK of the last year but also the #1 selling rap producer as well as being nominated for Best Dance Recording at the Grammys this year (with Jayda G). He has worked with artists including Ed Sheeran, FKA Twigs, Justin Bieber, Stormzy, George Ezra, Brian Eno, Khalid, Nicki Minaj, Maisie Peters, Headie One, Cardi B, Camilla Cabello and many more. Now releasing music as an artist himself, our guest has garnered over 4mil monthly listeners on spotify. And The Writer Is… FRED!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. Welcome to End the Update is.

I'm your host, Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update. Spotify has launched a free premium offer for TikTok users in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, and Turkey. Justin Prokash has been promoted to CFO of Concord Music Publishing and Concord Theatricals. Rick Rubin has inked an overall TV and film deal with Endeavor Content. Under this deal, Rick Rubin will expand his Shangri-La recording studios to movie and TV production. The Recording Academy has banned chart numbers and sales figures in Grammy for your consideration ads.

This shows that the Academy wants voters to focus on the course. quality of the recording rather than its success in the marketplace. Sony Music Publishing is teaming up with the Australian music company Alberts to rep the complete song catalogs of rock band ACDC and the songwriting and production team Vanda Young and Wright. Damon Dash has accused Jay-Z of illicitly transferring streaming rights to his debut album Reasonable Dow, which was initially released in 1996. Reservoir has signed artist, songwriter, and producer Rufio Hooks, to a,

worldwide publishing deal. This deal includes Rufio's current global hit co-write butter by the K-pop stars BTS and will also include his future works. Tencent music entertainment, also known as TME, is being forced to give up exclusive label deals in China. This is huge. UK streaming inquiry report is calling for a complete reset of the market via the right to recapture copyrights after 20 years. The members of parliament who orchestrated the inquiry are suggesting that the British government implements a right for artists to earn royalties via equitable remuneration from music streaming platforms. Monoskin, the Eurovision-winning rock band from Italy, were officially the most listened to artists in the world on Spotify as of last week. The band officially ends Olivia Rodriguez reign.

Atlantic Records has signed a label label VN-C-L-M-U-M-U-N-C-L-M-U-S-Rong. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but under this new deal, Ventilum artists will release through Atlantic records receiving distribution, promotion, marketing, publicity, and more. Nancy Dubuque has been elected to Warner Music Group Corporation's Board of Directors, including being named chairperson of the Audit Committee and a member of the executive committee. Warner Chapel has signed a worldwide publishing deal with UK rap star and songwriter Wretch 32. Christina Erskine has joined Warner Music as its SVP Marketing and Promotions Australasia. With over 17 years of experience in the entertainment industry across Australia, New Zealand, and Asia,

Erskine most recently acted in the role of Director of Engagement at the Sydney Opera House. 360 recordings has promoted Nick Deerman to General Manager. He has spearheaded global campaigns for Dom Dala and U.S. campaigns for John Summit and Doidsu. TikTok was the most downloaded and highest grossing non-game app worldwide in age 1 of 2021. Are we surprised? According to Censor Tower data, the app reached nearly 383 million first-time installs globally and approximately $919.2 million in consumer spending in the first half of 2021. Walter Combs' WK Records is expanding, hiring new CEO and launching Mexico.

Mexican imprint. Universal Music Group, also known as UMG, is launching Virgin Music Label and Artist Services in Brazil. Nicole George Middleton is appointed as Cap Foundation's executive director. Heartbreaking news, rest in peace to Cinderella guitarist Jeff Labar, who has died at the age of 58, and to rapper Biz Markey, who is best known for his hit, Just a Friend, who has passed away at the age of 57. A big thank you to Haley Evans of Mega House for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's episode of End the Writer Is. Welcome to End The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan.

Today's smash producer, hit writer, and next-gen artist, instrumentalist, Grace's popular music with compositional ingenuity and prodigious credibility, completing his first collection of records at 10 years old, and his first symphony at 14. this now 26-year-old has a grip of number one songs, including one of the biggest of 2021. When you're one of Brian Eno and Ed Shearren's favorite collaborators, you can count on the trajectory of this still young career.

I mean, he's already won the Brits producer of the year and spent the past few years with UK music royalty and American music legends. All the way from London, our guest is next up on your list of dream writers and the writer is Fred John Philip Gibson aka Fred again That's good That was overwhelming Ross

Come to my wedding Why are you blushing? Jeez, that was a lot That was a lot. Does anyone ever give you one back When you do that Does anyone ever go straight back in and your host is? Yeah, exactly I next time when we do the year follow-up

I'll give you enough warnings. I should have done that. I regret not doing that. Coming in, hop with like a bunch of tips from your mom and stuff, like loads of compliments that you were really niche and stuff. Really funny. You should definitely do it with like maybe a solid track underneath it.

Maybe make a full, spend your time doing that kind of composition. Exactly. Your friend, me. Okay. So obviously, you know, the stats of you starting off really young, speak for themselves, but I kind of just want to start, you know, beginning. Are your parents musicians?

What was your childhood like? Actually, no, but like, I mean, sorry, my dad would want to correct me that. My dad picked up the drums about four years ago, and he plays religiously. He's actually got a reserved drummer credit on basically everything I've ever done, including, like, Ed's tour. And Ed famously doesn't have any musicians, and Dad was a reserved drummer credit. like he's all over the credits um always as reserved drummer he's gotten pretty good well as a reserve drummer you could say he said he's said in his in his drumming tv it says it's a

testament to the drummers above him that he's never been needed to be called up but um but no they're not like they weren't raised as musicians and they were like heller supportive and started playing the piano when i was you know six or something and And the drums when I was eight and the guitar when I was nine and they've been, yeah, I got very, very lucky to have them. When you're doing your first full album at 10 years old, how good can that album be? Not that good, let's be honest. But, like, there's some... No, no, in realness, though, like, you know, I have a 10-year-old niece who actually writes kind of good songs, you know?

My guess is that when you listen back to it, they're probably... There's probably some good things. I actually had a, it was a whole piano piece. Yes, then that was a whole piano piece. I got a, like a boss, eight track, not long after that. And I made thousands of songs on that. And then, I mean, it's still, to this day, one of the most tragic things that ever happened to me.

One day, it wiped. I still literally, the thought of talking about, and I was there, I remember being like 11 and going to my mum being like, what's happened? Because I didn't, no one had talked to me about backing up. They didn't say that the whole, world could betray you like that. And so I was just there like, what's happening? The whole thing's gotten. To this day, I claimed that the music that was on that Boss 8 track was the best songs I'll

ever write. It's like my tenacious deed tribute. You remember your first good song? I guess that's a loaded question. I made a song like around then that sampled so pretentious a 12 year old bit. Sampled the Dylan Thomas poem do not go gently into the night. And I think that was probably quite good because I had the massive lift of a Dylan Thomas poem. So the lyrics were already a big tick. So that was the first one that I remember sticking. There were a few others.

It sounds like a Phil Collins song. Say again? Sounds like a Phil Collins song. Yeah, yeah. It did have that kind of. In fact, because my dad always used to listen to loads of power ballads. So I wrote a lot of that kind of vibe to try and keep my dad happy for a while. still am probably there's a big difference between

recording an album and sharing that album with people were you marketing that album like did you give that to your friends did anybody hear this album no it wasn't like yeah I'd split to people but I had when I went to

like the secondary school I went to I meant like I some songs I made got found by people and I got absolutely be rinsed for them. They'd clean me up on the lyrics. I remember there was a lyric about a girl who I adored at the time and about us

being in, I mean, I was 12, about us being in Dulwich Park, which is a place near me. And there was a lyric that said exactly that. And so a bunch of like, you know, 12-year-olds just waiting for the next guy to pick on. That is gold. So yeah, for a while, they were top secret once that happened. There's also a difference between writing and. an album and a symphony. What?

What is it? I mean, it's different, bro. Where does it think? Do you know what it is? Who does that? I'll tell you, is this the mind of someone.

I go to, like, I was doing a lot of classical music. And I said to my, like, what was it? My piano teacher, I was like, what defines a symphony? My guy was like, it's basically, it's actually really loose.

Like the definition of a symphony is, just a series of like timbres. Like you couldn't write a symphony for piano, but you could write a symphony for small orchestra and you could write a symphony for even like organ technically because there's lots of different timbers. And so I was like, hell yeah, I'm going to get me a symphony.

What I have to do is just turn up and make lots of different noises. So I just got really enamored by the idea of like, I can get me one of them. I can't believe it. And so I just went in on it and made this, I did two of them. But I was so, like, lucky at the time because I was at school which had, you know, I had an access to like a 50-piece

orchestra that I, were like friends and acquaintances and they were up for doing it. So it was so like rare an opportunity. I didn't really appreciate it at the time how rare it was to be able to just be like, yo, orchestra, let's go. It's an orchestra in your pocket. Yeah, I still feel very indebted to those guys, all of them. Did people come and see it? I know that it was done it's two sold out nights of

the notes I have. I mean, that means that a lot of people came and saw this. Yeah, we played it to it was probably yeah, it was a good amount, like a thousand or so. And the

it was, I mean, it was hilariously like, I'm still, the second one, there are parts of it I'm still proud of the first one well I'm sure there are parts but less the um the thing that was just so hilarious is after we did the second one the theme of the second one was protests there was like four movements and each one was about a different

protests so like the minor strike and Tiananmen Square and so and we had these like enormous projectors and had made all this like video that went along with each piece but I remember there was this moment that was still get chills to this day thinking about where I learned from the first one that playing with an orchestra live when you also have a whole band playing

is techy and hard like in terms of micing violins and stuff and so I was like okay I'm going to do a little bit of click for the second one just so we can boost the orchestra up a bit because it's not really as you obviously know it's not really possible to do it without and there was this moment

where like right at the beginning of the, like, one of the movements, we went out, there was a bar that was in 7-8, and we missed it, and we went out by like half a beat, and I was watching, and there's this click that's there, and there's this orchestra that are there, and I'm there, and I can hear the click on my ear. I was torture, and so I stood up from my thing and went over and started trying to conduct the orchestra to, like, bring them half a beat back to be in time with the click, because obviously the click isn't moving for nobody. And it was, we got a, I don't know, you know what I mean?

You get to the end, you're like, we winged it, but it wasn't great. But it was, luckily there was another night and we got it better the next night. But yeah, it was jokes. When I studied music in college, and I remember getting in fights with my music theory teacher because she viewed classical music as a higher art form than pop music. And I had to have this, you know. Yeah, I've had a lot of those. But there are so many people who view symphonic music and classical music and jazz as a loftier art form, a more credible art form than what you do for a living.

why would you, with the skill set of being able to do symphonies, why did you decide that you still had your love in songs? Well, I think. You know, there's such a difference. For sure, for sure. But I think, like, on a fundamental level, those people are wrong, and we know that, and we're lucky to know that. But, like...

Why is it wrong? Are they wrong? I remember having it I mean, the role classical music played from you know a few hundred years ago up until the beginning of the 20th century was pop music. Peron of pop music is classical music and the classical world is in a crisis of confidence

about how to negotiate their place in a musical landscape that doesn't cater to them right now as much. And when I went to the college I went to, which was a classical one, and I had this, tutor and I remember doing like they're very obsessed with like modern contemporary classical because I think as they felt classical music losing relevancy as like you know rock and roll and blues and things start to happen they were like okay we've got to find ways to keep pushing the new stuff like

the busi did to him and like bark did to him and so on but it entered into this dangerous territory of empress's new clothes I don't I mean I don't I don't don't want to speak too confident on it because obviously I could be wrong, but my experience was very much that because the best example I have is I did a brass quintet one week and I worked really, really hard on it. And I thought, this is good, I think. And I had like all the scores ready and went in and I got this brass quintet to play and I was showing it to my tutor and she was like, Fred, this is very conservative.

I'm not seeing a compositional voice. voice. There's no identity for you here. And I was like, okay, I was like a little bit like, okay, I was like, okay, she could be right. Maybe she's right. And then the next week I had to do a wind quintet. And I totally forgot until the day before. And I was like, oh, shit, I've got to do this whole wind quintet tomorrow. They're playing it. Literally went on to like Sebelius and just mocked up clarinet, bassoon, oboe. Like just literally just played it with my elbows. Just made it so it was playable for a bassoon in a note, like just gibberish, absolutely, like, nothing, had my eyes closed, each part, played it through five minutes.

And I took it in and she was like, Fred, this is a compositional breakthrough. You're really funny. And at that moment, I was like, if I can trick you, then this has no, no one could trick me into thinking that, into me thinking they're like the best songwriter. Do you know what I mean? No one could trick me into thinking that. If I can trick this, then it clearly is based on values that are not important to me, if you know what I mean. There's also a difference between composers and instrumentalists where a lot of instrumentalists in classical orchestras are playing covers.

Yeah. Of, you know, I remember, that was the argument I remember having was, you know, this feature in particular was, you know, a second flautist in a cover band. and at least I was struggling to compose something unique and you know nobody goes to see an orchestra or most people don't go to see the orchestra they go to see Mozart

or they go to see the computer they're not there to see their particular orchestra that's not to criticize people who choose to do that for a living but it's a weird there's such an ego attached to classical music it's interesting to find a composer or, you know, to then, who has the skill set to do that

and to have the same kind of point of view you have. Yeah, I also really enjoyed being, I was like the kind of the, like, rebel guy at college, which is not a role I usually play, but there, because I would, like, bring in my friends who are like rappers and stuff, and I'd play, like, a piece for, like, you know, tubor and someone rapping, they'd be like, this guy's ridiculous. What's he doing?

And people would just be, I quite enjoyed being like provocative like that. Like it's not a role I've got to play a whole lot. So it was quite fun for me, really. When did you graduate? Did you graduate? I didn't graduate. No, I left after a year and a half. Your first cuts are with Brian Eno.

Yeah, I got very lucky with Brian. He's still my, one of, he's still my, like, mentor and one of my great friends. How does Brian, how does Brian? How does Brian Eno find you? And for people who don't know Brian Eno is, you know, we've interviewed other collaborators of his before. So I am curious,

I want you to explain who Brian Eno is to you and who he is. People don't know who he is. Brian is a beautiful, beautiful anomaly in the producer Hall of Fame. As I think anyone who's met him would testify, Like he, when I first met him, I was 16, and he was my one point of reference in terms of how big producers are. I've since learned that it's not how any of the others are.

And it's in a beautiful way. Like, he is so, he exists in his own lane of doing. I mean, Brian, I don't know, what are his things? He produced. He was in. You too. Like so many, you know, and all of them. Like, all of the things.

ambient music, well, loosely in Indian ambient music. Peter Gabriel, just go down the world. A lot of good-ins, a lot of goodens. He's a rare and beautiful, beautiful. The texts I get from, isn't it to this text? I've got to shut my camera so I can read this to you.

Yesterday, last week, he sent me a text that said, Dear Fred, in a dream I had last night, you suddenly appeared, but not as Fred, as Free D. This, you explained, with your new professional name. This was your new professional name, but it also had something to do with making music in relief, like the grooves on a record. You decided that music should now be seen as a form of sculpture. And that was the end of the text. I said, Brian, I miss you dearly. You just like the text? I said, my brother, Brian, I miss you enormously. This is a

a beautiful thing to wake up to and I'm glad I was with you in the night. Oh my. Yeah. No, he's... You're a lot of 3D from now on. Yeah, trust me. Are you wishing stuff right now? Okay, so you go from Brian Eno and then your first, you know, to go from Brian Eno to Ellie Goulding in one year, who's introducing you to these people?

It's a big thing to go from, you know, I'm doing a symphony, getting noticed by an avant-garde producer who dabbles in commercial music right now to then working with at the time one of the UK's biggest pop stars. That's a huge shift. What is the business is starting, like, how is your career starting to evolve at that point? Well, I mean, I met, it was like a totally different thing because I met Brian because a friend of ours, a friend of ours, Mel, who we love, knew Brian as she was a neighbor, by coincidence. And she showed him the symphony, the second one I'd done. And so he invited me to come along to this singing group he does every, like, Tuesday.

Obviously, we haven't done it for a while. But it's like, it's like just really casual, beautiful in his, studio, just sing some like gospel songs in harmony. But it will be like, it will be like his neighbor who's a masseuse. And then it'll be like Annie Lennox, he's Annie Lennox, all just stood next each other going like, I went down to the river to pray. And so that, so I was doing, I would go there every week from when I was 16 and just hang with just like, it's hilarious. And then I'd just hang after the sessions with Brian and he'd start to help him with his music and he'd start to help me with my like projects and it was I got very very fortunate I mean I hustled hard like if he told me

make a song out of this I'd make like 30 different things but to play and by the next day and like not sleep so I was definitely behind the scenes I was like making sure this did not go to waste but um it's a rare rare group of people I mean it's a bit but it's so sorry what I was saying in terms of Brian is he's so like he actually exists kind of out of the industry like He just does his own thing. He goes to the studio. He works on the things. He paints most of the time.

He works on the things that cross his mind. He'll spend a whole year trying to evolve some new sort of science thing, almost as much as he will, the music thing. And so going into things like working with Ellie and stuff, it was like a totally different... It wasn't like this led to that. It was like, I've worked with Brian. I still work with Brian.

He's still my guy. But then on the side, I started writing a lot of songs with... friends of mine and like, you know, finding ways to get them off to A&Rs and labels and stuff. How do you do that? Were you just cold emailing these people or did you start? Yeah, we were cold emailing. I think off the back of the second symphony, we got a few contacts of people who, a few labels had hit us up about it. But then when you go along and they say, right, it's really funny to me now to think like the idea of like 16 year old me and 18 year old my brother, who was and is my manager, going into like these labels to pitch them,

this thing that is like a concert that we can put on once every few months. We got like 20 grand in like getting like donations from funds and stuff. Like it's a 50 piece orchestra. Like it's the most unviable commercial prospect. I just remember like talking to these A&Rs and being like, he seems like he's not quite like getting it. Now I'm just like, no way is he getting it. But we were in touch them and I think they thought, okay, it might not be this exact one,

but I think we'll still reply to Fred's emails, if you know what I mean. I think getting in the pop world is one thing, getting in the, you know, I guess we'll still call it urban music right, you know, at that time, getting in with little Yadi and Stefan Don, and I know Charlie XX is the, the, the, the, a connection with Lil Yadi. But you're working at this point from classical to hip-hop. It feels like you managed to find a way to not get pigeonholed in an industry that notoriously pigeonholes people. How did you navigate that?

That's a, you know, it didn't cross my mind at the time. I was generally always, I was doing, I thought of myself as like mainly a hip-hop producer from when I was like sort of younger. Like to me, the symphonies were like, they all had hip-pop and rap in them and stuff. And I got my friends to like put verses on them and things like that. So to me, and I did an album with a guy called Roots Manuver not long after I worked with Brian, who's like the UK, he's like the UK godfather of hip-hop. a beautiful, beautiful man called Rodney.

Yeah, so we made an album. So to me, it was like I was carrying on in that vein. The thing that felt slightly new was the pop stuff, actually. But I'd always really loved listening to that stuff. It's just not what my friends had loved so much, so I hadn't made it as much, if you know what I mean. Really? But yeah.

We had songs on some of the same albums. I'm looking at it. It's pretty cool. Oh, safe. Loved that. We were like high-fiving before. Yeah, that's what. It was passing in a virtual corridor.

You were getting into, even in the pop world, into circles that, you know, it's one thing with Little Mix, where they are, they're taking outside songs from all kinds of writers all over the world. But someone like Sean Mendez is somebody who doesn't really open up a lot of his collaborations outside of his crew of writers. How do you get involved, you know, and Sean, and then obviously later we'll get into Ed and whatnot. But how do you get involved with people who, you know, how did they find you? Because I would assume that's how that happened. Or did you reach out to Sean?

Well, in that case, actually, that one is an anomaly because that was the first song I wrote with Ed. The reason that particular link is an anomaly because it was linked because those two are friends. But for most of the others, it would be, I mean, my older brother who I've worked with since I was a teenager is like so, so good at his job. Like it cannot be overstated. And so I've got, I've really lucked out in terms of one having a manager from day one, you know, I can just obviously like unequivocally trust with everything. But also one who's like truly works as hard as I do. And it's like, is so good at it. So I think a lot of the time there were like marathons being run that I wasn't always necessarily seeing

that would lead to things that I was just like and here we go get. Like obviously we were both doing like we were both hustling and we were both like very very disciplined in our like I've always felt that the one thing I really loved and took most from classical music college was the discipline of like virtuosic players not so much the composers but more.

all these like guys who were trying to be one of like three solo violinists in the world. And it's just like wanting to be like, you know, it's just unfathomable to the competitiveness in that industry for like so few slots. And these people would be practicing, you know, 12 hours a day until their fingers couldn't play anymore. And not just like practicing fun stuff, like good, smart, diligent practice on the right things and a well-structured day. like that I really want to apply that to this side of stuff.

And so that's what we were definitely doing then, which probably helped. I'm trying to think if there was any particular... I think it would just be like, you know, it's like we saw it was like kind of building up in the labels. So we'd work with one artist at this label and try and like smash that out of the park and then like build up to the artist that that label had and then build up to this artist, if you see what I mean.

And trying to do that across all the UK labels. labels. That's so important for people who aspire to be big writers and producers, to still recognize the fact that you have to work your way up. There's still something of a ladder. There are some people who knock it out of the park on their first hit, and they just, you know, or their second hit or whatever it is. But it's so rare that somebody's first song is really the smash that defines who they are.

you know it's not that i would hate for that to be the case i'm much happier feeling like it's just a constant ladder to climb well working so you know working with ed who does have a lot of collaborators and you work on a song and it ends up with sean um you know there you do a song with the guy and ends up going to be an outside song that's it how did that end up becoming a relationship where you started writing again. Was it a while? Or were you guys just like, oh, this is Kismet?

We started writing again for Ed. Or for at all. I mean, I don't know. As soon as we got in, it was very effortless and good and natural. We really got on. He's like a, you know, he's not faking it.

He's a really nice guy. And it was very, very like I think we compliment each other obviously I don't need to tell anyone what Ed's strengths are they're pretty obvious and enormous but I think

in terms of like Ed is so quick and focused on lyrics particularly and I care well I care enormously about both to be honest but I think he's so quick on lyrics that I often try and like guide melody more and I mean obviously as you know like a lot of the time it's just everyone doing everything

but there was a very effortless synergy we just would write three songs a day every day one would be bad one would be quite good and one would be weird and maybe sometimes two would be good but usually it would just you get to the end of there and be like great let's do it again that same year in 2017 we'll get back to Edwin's songs come out. You have your first real hits. You know, George Asra won, the Clean Bandit one. You have like hits at radio in the UK and your family sees it and hears it probably while you're in

you know, while they're in restaurants. Did you start changing your expectations when you write songs once you start having hits? I think that the the trap I think is most I'm most cautious to not fall into is that I think it's very easy for your mind to glamourise the past scenario

in which you wrote a song like to remember oh that day that we wrote that song that became a big hit wasn't it great we went and got coffee and then the chorus just came to us and it was all just like a great day and so that and actually you forget the moment that you were actually struggling on that like one line

in verse two for like 30 minutes and you forget them at where you started lost belief in the song and you went on the like third production you had to go back to the first you kind of just glossed over and just make it this like oh that beautiful time where this all came about and i've clocked this sometimes when i'm working on a song and i'll be like really clawing it out and i'll be like oh this isn't what any of the good ones were and then i'll be like actually know a lot of the good ones were this like a lot of them you do have to kind of embrace i mean there's a really good Brian anecdote on this.

He goes, when he was working with, I think it was you two, he took them, they were on, I think they were following up Joshua Tree. And they were in this place where he says they were like expecting every song to just kind of come because they just remembered, oh, you remember that afternoon where we just wrote,

the streets have no name and it was all just great. We had a beer and everything was just safe. And they were just kind of in the studio, it to come and kind of not embracing the chaos that one has to slightly embrace and the sort of slight struggle that often has to be part of making a song. And so he took them to this like three Michelin restaurant and, you know, everything was this absolute epitome of like calm and perfection. And they're in this restaurant with, you know, a waiter each per person and they're like so quiet with like soft music and it's all really peaceful. And then he took them back to the kitchen where

obviously it's just absolute chaos in a three Michelin restaurant. It's like, you know, if you leave a plate here for more than 30 seconds, it can't be served and everyone's running around like crazy. And he was like, this is where you make your music. Stop trying to make your music in the restaurant. You make it in the kitchen. Embrace the chaos. Which is a good...

The next year, which is not only a year ago, so maybe it's not that long ago. I don't care ends up. being a big song everywhere and you have Ed Shearren featuring Justin Bieber and you have a ton of songs on the number six collaborations project for Ed and again it's sort of another step

from having a couple songs on an album to having the majority of songs on an album and also having a worldwide big record and a big record in the U.S. with one of North America's biggest stars. Does it start to

change the kinds of projects you're willing to work on once you are working on a project where you have, I mean, the amount of features, this just looks like it's so much work. It just looks exactly. The ad record. Yeah, that album just looks exhausting.

Yeah, there definitely was parts of that. And it was humbling how much features along even with an artist as good and credible as Ed. But it was fun. I mean, I don't, I'm trying to think if I've changed in terms of things I'd want to work on. I mean, I spent a lot of this last year making an album with Corrupt FM who are like these UK garage comedy stars who I just, me and my two best mates love garage.

And so it's every Friday, we've just gotten together and made garage and it's been a fucking joy. I think I'd be inclined to say I haven't really changed the thing on that front too much but yeah that that album was it was fun really it was fun we just went to Nashville we'd go sing karaoke and Santa's

right Monday to Thursday get pissed on the weekend I loved it I loved it because I really like the I can do a sort of a long working day stuff. I love it. Why Nashville for a couple UK guys? Because actually, it's purely technical. It's just because that Ed was on tour. And that is where if you're doing a

like really big tour, they set up shop there because then they can fly out to each different date and be based somewhere for like two months as opposed to moving around hotels for two months. How did you like working in the US compared to working in the UK? I, I like Nashville. Phil. I haven't yet found my thing in L.A. personally.

I'm sure I will. I love British culture too much. Yeah, maybe that's right. I'm sure time will come with something. I mean, when I go to L.A. I like, I hang out with I basically just hang out with boy Wonder. He's like, to me, it's like the

him and like his lovely lovely Canadian trooper like to me, my people out there. But yeah, I haven't loved doing the few times where I've done like an LA thing where it's like session each day with like a top liner and stuff it's not really how I find I make the best music that you know what I mean I find do you say same yeah I mean I the projects that are most enjoyable are the ones where I know when I come in with an idea that was so close,

but we didn't nail it today that I can come back in tomorrow to either realize, man, that pre-course was great. Let's rewrite everything else. Or be, let's start a new idea today. I know that I can come back the next day after that and say, you know, that idea Monday was kind of really good. And we just were like we're too scared to admit that it was good. Yeah. Yeah. It's so, versus you know you do these one-offs and then you have to text each other about how good the song is hoping the other person is going to pitch it well that's amazing wow yeah no i haven't done i haven't really done any of that for about four years but the the main thing for me is that i would work with i always like working with people who

are like artists if i'm not working with someone who's the artist i'm like i'll just work on my own and make my own music i love doing that too But I love working on people who bring something can propose a artistic sort of issue or juxtaposition that is exciting. But if it's just kind of a white blank page with like, here we go, let's get songing. Then I'm just like, I'll just go off

and do lots of the other things that I find more exciting than that. Well, you're starting to release your own music and doing your own music. How does that feel, compared to, and do you like the pressure of that? Yeah, yeah, I do. I do. I think it's, I mean, it just, it was what I started doing. I made like a, you know, back when I was first working with Brian, I made a couple of others of my stuff with him kind of helping out. And it was, it wasn't by any sort of intention that

I stopped. It's just kind of various things happened. And then I was doing this and that. And they all felt fun. But then I kind of, got to a point where I was like, okay, I need to, there's a, there's an, you know, an itch that needs itching, whatever it is. And funny enough, Brian, who keeps getting, you know, the Honourable mentioned Brian, he emailed me at about that time saying, okay, Fred, enough. Let's get back to doing some of your stuff. And I was like, save, you're, you're, we're in sync. So I, you know, yet again, I'm very lucky for him. But no, I really, enjoy it because I think it's a different muscle to flex and I don't want to only flex one.

Like if I go in with, it's the same reason why I was saying I like working with artists who write and artists to bring a real thing because like I can go in as a fan and be like, okay, I can't wait to hear what would Ed sound like over this or like what would Stormy sound like if this was like the lyric or something that's so fun to me. But when it's my stuff, It's more like I'm just like blindfolded and throwing paint at a wall. And every now and then I get to see what sticks. And it's such a different feeling. And I really love that because they both lead to different good things, I think.

Yeah, I mean, part of your job, I think, as a collaborator, is to help, this is a terrible thing to say, but like kind of help commercialize a little bit of their artistry. Like to keep them, keep them focused. so the song actually is like a a song that's digestible you know because but when you're an artist and you're alone or you're creating a lot of it you can go as far out as you want yeah no rules you know and your collaborators are also trying to just make sure that you write you know focus on the song focus on the song but when you're a musician and you're an artist you tend to make art which is not the same thing as in a way, songs.

Oh, interesting. I see what you're saying. I actually, I can't distinguish as easily. I hear totally what you mean, but I don't actually feel that differently about the two. Like, I definitely do need, like, I do get people to produce me. I've got a bunch of amazing group people who I love working with who play the same role you're talking about, for sure.

and that is definitely something I've found to really helpful. Why don't you do 100% of everything yourself? Why do you like to collaborate when you're the artist, when you have the skill set to do all of it? I don't think I've got much evidence to work with that that would lead to a better result. I mean, I so truly don't care about anything

other than what the three minutes of music sounds like. I don't care if it's 100 people on it or one. And I've just found that, I think particularly working as, much as I like to work. When I was back when I was younger and I would like make songs not quite as every day because I had like school and stuff and I just like couldn't wait to go do it in the evening.

I think now because I want to stay making music 12 hours a day every day, it's helpful to have people who can, collaborators can really fuel that I think. And also I think just makes it better. Totally. It's also fun. I mean, you know, when you don't collaborate at all, you celebrate the success as alone.

I'm very British on that front. I don't think I've ever wanted to celebrate a success. You also, you feel the failures alone, all of it. For sure, for sure, yeah, yeah. And I don't know that that makes the experience. I don't think that makes any experience better. Yeah, totally. How much do you write, like, how often nowadays do you find

just writing 100% to itself. I mean, I work in theater a bunch. You know, actually this week, last year was the last time I was in London right before we all quarantined and I was playing I was playing shows in London

and it was, you know, that it's a project that I write 100% of. But, you know, it was for a project that was produced by, you know, Ricky Reid, a good friend of mine and everything. So it wasn't like, I wasn't doing all of that. But when I work in theater and stuff, which I do a lot, I tend to write a lot of it alone. Some of it.

Some of it I collaborate. But I think for the most part, it's like there's something about diving into this world of knowing that it's going to be excruciating to finish this song. I don't know why it's so hard. Like when you just, even just having another human in a session, how many times do you come up with an idea? where the person's not even really contributing that much, but their presence forces you to focus. Oh, mate, this is one of, yeah, 100%. I'm a big fan of all of those types of energies.

In fact, to be honest, the energy I most by myself drawing for is more of that type of thing. Because I quite like getting involved, and I'm quite quick in the way I like to work and stuff on logic. So I don't really want too much there, but I love a guy who's just, like, got a taste that I know and trust and like a vibe that is encouraging a action, if you know what I mean, as opposed to just,

because basically I think as long as you just keep doing, it's very much my stuff, just keep doing stuff. And other people help an awful lot with that. I mean, some of your collaborators have been guests on the show and we're friends with, obviously, Julia Michaels and, you know, Dave Hodges, who you did, afterglow with, you know, both are such different kinds of writers. You know, Julia's like the, her mind is so, is also fast.

And it's so, it's like an emotional kind of writing. And Dave Hodges is one of the most cerebral writers where he brings out a different kind of emotion, but they're totally different. and they're obviously both really different than Ed but the results have all been so strong you know thank you man it's it means that you're really good at

at also adjusting your skill set to the to the person you're with so even if you think you prefer one or the other I don't think you look at those songs as love yeah I appreciate that I appreciate that No, I definitely, yes, I think I mean maybe mostly in my stuff I would most draw for that energy.

But no, I appreciate that, man. Let's go with Afterglow for a second. Afterglow is obviously continuing to blow up around the world. And it's a different kind of song for both Ed and, you know, anybody's worked with Dave. you know, Hodges knows that this is like, it, there's a lot of like, to me, this doesn't sound like a song that you guys sat down and you wrote in a half hour.

This sounds like one that you had to think about. Do you know what? It's a half hour. It is that. It is one of those rare, um, rare literally half hour. We got it because all the sessions are filmed.

And I think it was 40 minutes from... No way. That is so funny that you said that. It's so sod's law. But yeah, that was... But yeah, that was... It was like a just a jam... The whole thing...

Like the sort of vocoding kind of thing and underneath it all the 40 minutes? The scents that come in halfway through, I added like a week before it came out. Like the little fluttery detail thing. they're not big parts. But it's one take, recorded live, acoustic guitar, vocoder, and vocal all at the same time.

And we wrote it just singing live. I was just playing the vocoder, and we were just going through each line would just come. And then it was like, next line, next line, and next line. And it was like, and one, two, three, four, record. First take done. It was a beautiful, really rare moment. That's really disappointing for the rest of it.

But don't worry, I got loads of the others. I got loads where it's like, oh, yeah, this chorus was actually right-said Fred. and then it wasn't right. How do you have a personal life with the amount of music you're creating? It's a good, I mean, I'm quite lucky in that. I live with my best friend and I like my other best friend basically lives with us. All of my friends I knew since I was like four, like no cat.

literally like four growing up in South London. And so they're all still in South London. So really, basically, obviously not right now, but basically every Friday I'll just go to the pub. And every Saturday I'll go to the pub again. And I'll just see these people. I mean, I'm definitely the guys there a bit less. Because it's just so like I love the pub is like my happy place.

And if I've worked like really diligently gone up early Monday to Friday and it gets to, you know, 9pm on a Friday. I can't wait to go out of five pines of Guinness. So, yeah. That's a lot of Guinness. Well, you know what I was going to say is I actually definitely under his century. I tried to make myself sound more like eight. But the, yeah, it's, and I also love a rave.

Like, we go raving a lot in normal times, like the London sort of, you know, like warehouse Raves and stuff, they're just beautiful, beautiful places. But those are such that, musically, that's so different than what you seem to create. Is that by design that that's a place that you can kind of relax because it's not competitive? I know what you mean. I do make that, like, I mean, a lot of my project is very, like, Ravenspired. It's much more softened, but it's very, like... But it's soft.

It's not, like, I guess when I think of raves, I think of like a different level of... Yeah, no, I mean, I love, like, I totally hear you, yeah, when it goes to like, I mean, I was like in February of this year, actually, it seems like a distant place now. I went to Bergheim, which is, do you know that place? It's a place in Berlin. I don't. It's like the... I know I've never been there. Right, right, yeah. So for people who don't know, it's like the, it's like kind of the world's most famous techno club. basically. And it's very, like, famous for its, like, restrictions on the door. Like, you can't, they'll just turn away half. The queues constantly forever. And they'll just turn away anyone who

looks like a tourist and anyone. Usually it's just like people walking around with, like, people on dog collars and stuff. Like, absolute, crazy, crazy amazing place. And it's just this enormous pool. There's two places, Panorama Bar, which plays slightly more melodic music. And then the main hall that is just literally like, you'll get maybe like, a chord an hour and a half and the crowd will go mad but essentially it's just like 160 throbbing like just constantly and I went there on my own like quite a few times actually I went to Berlin to write and I would just write in the day and then go to Bergheim on my own in the evening and I would just stand there and it was so beautiful the system is like this amazing like function one that was like custom for the place

it's meant to have the best sound in the world and it surrounds you so much and I remember like I was just stood on this bit you can stand on that overlooks like this whole warehouse and this like swarm of people who are all like shirtless and just this moving sway of bodies at like, you know, 8am or whatever it would have been on like a Saturday morning. And they put like things over your phones so that no one's cameras can work. And I remember after like six hours of just absolute no, there hasn't been a chord or a note inside. I was like going out my phone and I had this like one of those

like keyboard apps and I was just playing along to the beat to give myself some harmony and like here I was just giving myself a little bit of house piano over it and then I realized the people were looking at me and having your phone out in Berkine is like the ultimate taboo it's like how could you betray the trust of the and I'm like no no I'm not trying to film anyone I'm trying to add a piano

which yeah I got a lot of bad looks but no those are I love those places a lot what is success Jesus Russ what do you say to that I'll probably be better at springboarding off of it I mean I'm I mean to me it's

there's the stock I don't want to say this stock I think if you ask somebody who doesn't make a living from music they would probably say to make a living from music You know, it's that same thing where it's a big difference between, you know, being homeless and having a roof over your head, then having a roof over your head in a mansion.

Like, getting the roof over your head is like the first level of success is making sure that you can, you know, if you can pay your bills by being a musician, you can argue that that's success. I just think everybody has certain goals and different perspectives on what they think success is. Yeah, I would say for me, for me, it would be like success is chasing like happily. Because like I know that as long as I'm like happily chasing, because that's what I'll be forever. Like the goals I have is totally unrealistic. I'll never achieve any of them. But I'll be chasing them generally happily for the rest of my life.

And I quite enjoy the feeling of like not always. Obviously like everyone there's times where you're just like, oh, fuck like this is. not a happy moment, but generally I feel like I'm happily, I'm happily chasing the things that I'll never quite chase and that's success to me. What are those goals that? What are those unattainable goals? Well, I just want to, like, I need to make sure that I'm the best music ever, like, in the world ever from like Mozart to Quincy. Like, I know it sounds ridiculous. It's like Jesus Christ, right?

But since, like, that's just for some reason how my brain is wired that, like, I, like, have to do that. and on one hand I know that like I'm not I know I'm not Mozart but I also like know that I definitely won't be if I don't try so you know I enjoy the struggle of it there was a thing I heard yesterday where it was

you know if you you know essentially if you want to win the lottery you have to buy a ticket yeah I heard that the other day as well actually told by Johnny McDade, the lovely Irishman. I mean, there's no question that you have to go and want to be the best.

You have to try to be the best. Yeah, and I'm aware even that that is like a vague thing to like aim for. I enjoy the ambiguity of it. But like, I mean, and I'll switch what the bullseye is exactly each year and each month. But as long as I'm like getting up early and diligently practicing the thing I need to get as good as I possibly can at. Like I need to serve the thing that I could get really good at.

Otherwise it would just be a shame. You know, you don't want to, you want to try and you want everyone to fulfill potential in it. Is that for, you know, who would be the judge of being the best? No one. It's a ridiculous thing. I mean, there are certain people. there's no question that a lot of people that we know that are successful in the business have a little voice in their head saying I want to be great I want to win gramis or I want to win brits or I want to win you know sell have number one songs or I want to write the best musical

of all time on right the best album of all right you know it's like something drives a lot of musicians and it and it's a you know it's the hard part is if your happiness is related to the other people's perspective of what the best of all time is. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, yeah, no, I hear that totally. That is the chase of having those goals and loving the process of it. That's amazing, you know. I love.

No, I feel very fortunate in that regard. It's fun. It's so fun what we get to do. I mean, exactly right. Let's go to this, to this five-for-five segment. I'm going to name five things and just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Let's start with Brini now. What, is it like a one-word thing or like a...

Brian would be, like, I call him my Dumbledore. Stormsy Kind We're doing one word He's kind Burner boy Oh The best thing I can say about

Burner boy is the best thing He's the best thing anyone's ever said about me Burns said We like needed a press release for my When we're doing the Brits thing And we feel like we get a quote from burner He sends back if Burner Boy was white, he would be friends.

To this day, that is my tombstone. I swear down. That's amazing. He's probably the one artist in the world that I want to work with. That guy's just... Oh, mate, he's so, so rare. The way I met him was... Sorry, not to do you're a rare with your 5'5,

but we were in a studio. I was in back five years ago, whatever. and Lily Allen, of all people, you wouldn't thought she'd be the plug there. She comes down, because she was in the studio a few floors above, and she was like, Fred, I've got this guy I want you to meet. And she brings him Burnet.

And I was like, say, and he was wearing this like head to toe, like bright silver, polystyrene puffer jacket. He looked like a sort of futuristic dragon giant man. And I was like, hello, Sir Bernard, nice to meet you, mate. And then we made a song that night. And his writing process is so, I mean, you have to put up with like literally like 50 blazing hot gelato joints being smoked and if you can ride through that passive then he just has the most pure innate music coming out of him you just play

the beat and it'll just go around and around around he'll be like next line next line next line next line next line next line and then suddenly you're just like wait is the song done did we just do the song and then he's just it's beautiful i love working with him the white burner boy and he's What is it, Free D? Free D. Brian. Ed Sharon. A real friend, I think. I would say, and diligent as well.

Your parents. Just, what would be the, I need to think of an incise way of summarizing their rare brilliant. Of all the luckies I've got, that's the biggest one. They are so, I can't quite, just so

compassionate and sort of compassionate and sort of smart and balanced and tolerant, a lot of the most important things. And a great drummer, I should say, and Charles has an amazing drama. Belly, I got some text from your dad.

Trust me. Trust me. I just saved it. Let's just do a sixth real quick because I think it's important, your brother, who's your manager. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I've already said the luckiest time.

Yeah, he is. Yeah, I mean, I used up all the good words of my parents. Say again? No, you said, I mean, you said earlier, it's like that, you know, to have someone that you trust, this is yours but hearing you say that earlier it's a yeah i mean when you get to work with if you get to work with your best friend that's one thing if you work with your brother it's like man that's your brother

yeah no it's you know you know how protective can you get it's amazing yeah no totally totally no it's not lost on me how fortunate that one is like the more i do it as well the more you know i mean you'll have seen more than me but like the more you see how complex that relationship and how important that relationship dynamic gets and to have so many of the variables just automatically ticked. You know, like, for example, there'll be good managers who maybe might be slightly more inclined to take the deal that will pay out in the next two years because they don't know 100% if they'll be working with you in five years because things

go is weird. And for just to know that all of those things, we're like, we're in this for 70 more years or whatever. and so there's nothing and we're just in the exact same boat like it cannot be overstated how lucky I feel for that well thank you for doing this podcast

this is a good way for us to get to know each other and uh thank you rice you know obviously it's fun for everyone to watch when you see somebody somebody's career on you know I guess what we would call like a hockey stick

kind of trajectory. To watch somebody who has that musicality, it's exciting because a lot of musicians, our real musicians, a lot of people have picked up a trombone first or picked up a violin first

or didn't pick up Ableton Live as their first instrument. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's fun to watch somebody who understands real the basis of music and whose competition in music isn't necessarily who's the hottest right now, but looking at the pantheon of the greats and recognizing that there's more to music than just that another pop song.

It's fun to watch, man. Love for us. I really appreciate it, my brother. It's lovely to meet you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter.

And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.