And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 14: Luke Laird

Episode Date: May 1, 2017

To call this songwriter's work profound is a gross understatement. His name is practically synonymous with the term "country radio." Just this past year he earned his 23rd #1 Country Single on the Billboard Charts with Luke Bryan's "Fast". A few of his other notable collaborations include Carrie Underwood's "Last Name", Kenny Chesney's "American Kids", and Blake Shelton's "Hillbilly Bone (feat. Trace Adkins)." Raised in Pennsylvanian countryside, and now based in Nashville with his family, this writer has become one of the most respected and sought-after songwriters in modern country music. And The Writer Is...Luke Laird! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write songs.

the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who is nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is or go to our website www.com. Oh, and if you enjoy this podcast, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. We really appreciate that effort. I'm recording this week's intro from my phone because I'm at a writing camp in New York City. I probably could have found a studio, but most of my career is sending ideas back and forth using voice notes. So this is the most authentic songwriter experience I can give you.

This week's guest is Luke Laird. We recorded this episode only a few weeks ago, and he has since notched his 23rd number one country song with Fast by Luke Bryant. His 23rd. If you know country, you know Luke Laird. If you don't, you will after this episode. But most importantly, other than being one of the best writers in country music history, he's a good dad and a good husband. One note about something we discussed in this podcast.

We talk about MDRCs, which means minimum delivered release commitment. Essentially, when we're not, When you sign a publishing deal that has an MDRC of two songs, you need your percentage of major label releases to equal 200% of a song. So, if you're writing with five people, you'd need 10 songs released to equal 200%. It doesn't matter if it's a hit. It just matters that the song gets released. I guarantee we discuss this more in future episodes. Anyway, I'm so excited for you to hear you to hear you.

hear Luke's story of being raised on an actual dirt road to where he is now. So without further ado, here is, and the writer is. Welcome to And the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's Grammy-winning writer-producer has 22 number one country records. He's a perennial nominee for songwriter of the year at the ACMs and won it in 2015. He's won the Triple Play Award at CMAs a bunch of times. and received BMI's songwriter of the year in 2012. When he's not smashing country records, he's releasing writing and recording songs with Neo, Snoop Dog, and Charlie Puth.

This Nashville entrepreneur founded one of the best publishing companies on Music Row and was my introduction to country co-writes. And the writer is the music industry's number one professional wrestling fan, Luke Laird. Yo, yo. Yeah, there you go. to the club, baby. I can't really read, so that was...

No, it was good, man. I got through most of it. Couldn't edit it in post. So, yeah, when did you get into professional wrestling? I got into professional wrestling a long time ago. Probably about 1986 when I was in, like, first grade. And did you have every action figure? I don't think people realize how much you like it unless they know you, but your fanaticism is...

I grew up in Pennsylvania. So the wrestling that I watched was pretty much like right when WWF got huge. And Vincent McMahon, you know, started WrestleMania. That was like Hulk Hogan, you know. Yeah. And so I was like part of the big commercial wrestling boom. And did you go, were you going to actual wrestling match? Or were you just watching Friday Night Raw or whatever it's called?

Well, it was before Monday Night Raw. Every Saturday. This is how big wrestling became at that time. every Saturday or one Saturday month on NBC in the time slot where Saturday Night Live was, they would have Saturday Night's main event. So literally Saturday Night Live was only three times a month and once a month was Saturday night's main event. That's how big it was.

So, yeah, every birthday, every Christmas, I asked for tickets to, you know, go see macho man, Randy Savage or hopefully again. Did you get to meet macho man at all before? I didn't. Did you meet any of them? Have you ever met? Kogan, yeah, got to hang out with him. Did you get to write with him?

I didn't write with him, but there was a lot of inspiration there. Will you Starstruck? A little bit, yeah. Like, I don't get Starstruck that much outside of, you know, or in the music industry, but it's always someone like, oh, man, that's... You're almost like when you do the jobs that we have, you're just kind of required to, like, play it cool around big artists and stuff like that, but when it comes to athletes or professional wrestlers.

My first license is writing The Miz's theme. song. Do you know the Miz? He's like he's like he's the he's he's a WW champion now he and his his wife and he like have a show

and he's like a huge wrestler now and we were hanging around Hollywood and it was one of those things where he was like he was on real world and when real world people stop working on real world they moved to LA and And then after that, after that they moved to Nashville.

And after that, they moved to Nashville, right. But we ended up, he was just like, yo, I'm starting to do some professional wrestling. Do you want to write my theme song? No way. So my first, like, license was when they were like, he kept doing these road rules, real world challenges, and they would always play the Ms. theme song, which is like my first, it's my first license. I was just writing it while I was in a band. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to write your theme.

So I kept going to all these professional wrestling events. I'm jealous. Yeah. I'll get you tickets. I know people. You know, not that he would be listening, but if Vince McMahon is listening, I'd love to have that opportunity. I don't, I'll give you. To write a theme song?

Yeah. Doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter. I don't even need any money. I don't know if you want to keep that part. You really don't. I would do one of the, I'm not joking. Yeah.

Okay. I will, I'm going to pass this along. We've probably lost our. audience at this point. Right, exactly. So wait, when you're in a, when you're in Pennsylvania and you're, watching wrestling, what's your music education like? You know, my music. Was it the W.W. You had the W.W.E. All those albums. Yeah, the first album, the second album was called Pile Driver. Was that stuff like influencing you at that point? Musically, I mean, you know, entrance theme songs, I guess, you know, maybe a little bit, but

honestly my influences at that time were just what was on popular radio yeah you weren't listening to michael jackson in particular or anything not not at that age i mean i guess a little bit because my parents listened to it but but were they right were they musicians no they just played the radio and um i mean i know for sure my two big musical influences early on in my life the first tape i ever had was michael jackson thriller sick So you've got that. And then the first, like, album I remember hearing that my parents had and played it around the house was the Willie Nelson record. I can't remember the title of it now where he covered, like, old pop standards.

I didn't realize that at the time. I just thought it was country music. But Stardust, that was the record. So if you listen to both those records, they're so different. But when I think back on that now, how much both of the, that types of music have. influenced what I do today. It's pretty amazing. And are you listening to this? So then for radio stations, are you listening to

Pop music? Just the current pop music until I got, you know, to junior high and really got into country music. That's when you were in junior, who introduced you to country music? Was that big in where you grew up? Yes, I grew up in rural America, northwestern Pennsylvania, outside of a little town called Coneyet Lake. I grew up on a dirt road with my last name, Laird Road. I grew up on Laird Road.

Was it your grandpa? Yeah, well, I think it was even before him, but yeah, I grew up right next to my grandparents' farm. And just a... How many generations back do you have to go to get a road named after you? I don't know. I know the farm was in the late 1800s is when that was kind of started there.

And so I think that country music, that's once I was old enough to actually, when you care about lyrics or listen to them, I kind of, first of all, I thought they were written really well lyrically, but I could relate. Right. Well, I was talking to Brandy Clark where she was saying that she was so much of this music's just not authentic because none of them have grown up on a dirt road. Right. You know, and then you actually were brought up on a dirt road.

I was. I literally grew up on a dirt road and it is still dirt. Yeah, exactly. Do you ever go back? Yeah, I go back now, you know, with two kids, it's hard to get back there as often as I'd like but usually we go up there about once a year around July 4th. The summertime's nice. But yeah, I've still got lots of family and friends there.

Yeah, right now it's freezing and terrible. Yeah, wintertime, you don't want to hang out up there. So you're in junior high and somebody's like, you got to check out, this is the new, what album? How do you get involved in it? So, like, just to back up a couple years, my first concert I went to was Randy Travis. And it was when he kind of blew up and got really big. It was at our county fair, the Crawford County Fair. It was in 1987.

my aunt and uncle took me to the show and it was kind of the first I'd seen like a well it was the first concert I went to so it had a big impact but it was really country music and I actually liked it and so then

once I got into seventh grade that was kind of like when the whole like Garth Brooks thing got huge like country music blew up so all of a sudden it was like oh there's some of this music I like and it was becoming pop as well, so it wasn't as much of a fringe.

It was like okay to like it as well, but, you know, I just, I got into it, started listening to the lyrics. So I'm listening to, like, Garth Brooks and newer artists, you know, in the 90s, like, Red Aiken's and Wade Hayes, but also Cypress Hill. Yeah, right. It's just the, yeah. Because when you're young, you're not thinking genres. You're just like, this is just music.

And to be honest, and then the whole grunge thing was going to be. going on at the time. Pearl Jam, I remember buying 10 on cassette. But, you know, a lot of my friends were kind of in the same boat, just kind of listening to what was popular, I guess. Were you kind of curious

why these people weren't mixing, or was there sort of an awareness of just like, that's pop music, that's grunge, that's country? I was pretty aware, and I think even more so than it is now, I mean, if you look at kids' playlist, it's so. Because they're a record stores. Yeah, exactly. I mean, like,

And, you know, it was, I wasn't that aware that, I mean, I was aware that there was a difference, but I liked all of it. Sure. And then when did you start writing? Did you come back from that, that Randy Travis concert? And you're like, yeah, I can write that song and I'm 12 years old. No, I, you know, I started playing piano when I was like four and then guitar in first grade. And from that moment, I was writing songs. I didn't realize it at the time It was more like I guess Like what we would call like a chorus It was just like a chorus And then as I got junior high

I would write some that were a little more inappropriate You know It's fun Try to show off for your friends And make your parents sweat But I always just made up stuff Made up songs When was the first time you recorded a song

Let's see Okay this is When I was in high school I mean I always would record On my boom box or whatever But when I was in high school, my mom, who was a nurse, knew a guy at her, at the hospital she worked at, who was a maintenance guy. And he had some recording gear. It was like, like a, he had a proper, well, not proper, I guess.

Yeah, a proper cassette recording studio in his basement. And she was like, hey, I'll give you 50 bucks if Luke can come over and record some songs he wrote. So I went over there. and I had written some awful songs that I hope never resurface. I've actually still got a lot of, I've still read a lot of awful songs, but. Yeah, but now I have, I feel like, I feel like I should be a journalist and find this guy and get these recordings.

No, and I won't give you names. But it was just really like, it was when I was in high school and I would go over there and write and record, and then he would finish it out, like put like a fake bass on it and some fake drums. and I thought, man, this, because it sounded clean, you know, like this is, you know, this is really good, but they didn't have auto tune. Right. Right. So when did you go to, did you buy a task cam thing?

Like, were you, where, was there a point where like, oh, you know what, I can record this? That wasn't that hard. And I'm going to go in. Yeah, you know, I still just saw myself as such a songwriter. Like anything to do with the studio was almost kind of intimidating. So I was literally just boombox recording. And I When I was all in high school

Yeah And when I got into college A roommate of mine Had one of the Task M4 tracks And he would go home On the weekends And he would let me use it

And so then I kind of Started getting to recording A little bit But It was very amateur hour And I didn't really get into recording Myself For doing all that

Until a couple years After I had a publishing deal I was just like I'm just a writer My guitar My notebook That's all I need Can you sing?

You don't have to sing right now, literally. Do you have the actual first songs in your head? Do you remember them? Unfortunately, yes. What's the first song called? Well, there's one I wrote in fifth grade called The Thing Out of the Zipper. The Thing Out of the Zipper? So you can imagine what that is.

I hope my parents listen to this. My sisters will get a kick out of that too. Did you just walk around the house singing? Oh, well, see, I had a Casio keyboard, one of those that, you know, had the pre-programmed beats in it. And you could, yeah, you know, you can pick pop rock or, you know, Basanova. But I literally would, you could record in, you know, a sequence, whatever you wanted. So I'd play like chords on a really bad synth-s sounding thing, GCD to a beat, and let that loop.

and then I would go write my guitar, play it and sing. You were in cheering before I had a chair. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's got nothing on this. On young Louis Blair's. Yeah, and right. So I would literally, gosh, just play it's just awful. God, it's, I'm sweating, thinking about it. But it was, you know, it was fun.

I just was so passionate about music. How does it go? The thing out of the, I can't. Almost. Okay, so you go and you, graduate high school in Pennsylvania and you go to Middle Tennessee State. Yes. And did you study music?

They have a music business program there. And I just knew that I had visited Nashville between the summer between my sophomore and junior year with... Of high school? Yeah. We went on a family vacation. And that was the first time. I mean, it sounds so cliche, but I saw a show at the Bluebird Cafe and saw these writers. It was the first time I saw like real songwriters playing songs that they had written.

and I knew these songs, and I was just fascinated. I was like, wow, that... And it's what you've been doing. You just didn't even realize you were doing it. And it put the thought in my head like, wow, this is their job. Like, this is what I want to do. And so my parents were always very supportive, but like I said, they didn't do any music. So they, of course, wanted me to go to college.

And my mom found out about MTSU having a recording industry program. So that was the only school I applied to. there couldn't be a bunch of recording No music business Yeah there weren't a ton of those at the time I mean maybe Belmont In Belmont you know Their location was great but

But to be honest The cost The difference in cost I just made sense to go to MTSU So and it was great I had a great experience I did their music business program But I was writing songs all through school

I would come up to Nashville And play open mic nights and do all that. How old were you when you played the Bluebird the first time as a writer? It's like a real writer. I don't know. Well, let's go not a real writer. They do this thing where you can go in and put your name in a hat.

If you get drawn, you can go up. I did that thing, so it didn't matter how much your song sucked you would get to play. I did that once. That was like on that. That was like 17. Yeah. Like did people there, because there are some professional, like, people who are probably there watching? I don't think so. I think that they, you think that that's what happens, but most of those people don't come to the open mic night. Right.

But it was, I thought it was good, but at the time, you just think, well, if you can put a song together, man, it's pretty, you know, I don't know a lot of people that can put a song together. It's got a verse and a chorus. So, but then they have this thing where, and I'm assuming they still do it, but where it's like an audition. process. You go in, you play a verse and a chorus for a panel of one judge or whatever, somebody who's in the music business. And if it's good enough, then they call you back and say, okay, you're going to get to come perform three songs on this particular night. I did that. And that was like, right, I think right as I got into college or I think it was like right when we first moved down. But then after that, of course, now I've played it a zillion times since, but it's a huge deal.

I still have like the letter. And back then it was before, I mean, email was was around, but they would send you this letter. You, hey, you pass the audition process. You get to come. It's a huge deal. It was a huge deal for, you know, I thought, it was just one of those little things that happened.

You're like, huh, this might, it was like moving in a positive direction. Did you think you were going to be an artist? Mm-mm. I enjoyed, like, playing the writer's nights and that, but I think I figured out pretty quickly how much more I liked the creative process as opposed to being on the stage. And then once I was in the full-blown music scene, there's just, I also realize there's people who are way more talented and better singers and performers than me. So I never really like went for it as an artist.

And I've been fortunate enough to get to work with a lot of great artists. kind of find what my thing how I can help you know yeah I think that was one of the things that bothered me as I got older was realizing that when you grow up not in Nashville or L.A., you kind of think that if you're a singer they just push you towards you should then be the one on stage. There are actually like a lot of careers that you can have being creative in not just music but in all the art forms that doesn't mean you have to go and perform and I was a good enough performer along the way to get record deals. But I didn't mean that I loved it.

Yeah. I really loved the writing. I didn't realize that you could make a living at that. Even as I was getting record deals and going through the process, I didn't know that you could actually go and spend a career being a studio guy. Well, yeah, and I think that happens a lot. You know, as a young person, you think, oh, that would be awesome to get to go tour. And it would be, you know, and all that.

But all of a sudden, you realize. well, first of all, there's a tiny percentage of people who make it as a big star and just because someone has a record deal, like we all know that... Not that it doesn't mean anything, but there's so many

things that have to fall into place for you to really make it. But as a songwriter, a producer, you can kind of go in and out of these different rooms and reinvent yourself. You know, if you write a song that tanks on the chart, that's not necessarily the only.

of your career. It could be the end of the artist's career. Right. And, you know, you hope you're not the one who writes that. But it's, I don't know, it's, it's cool to kind of be behind the scenes. Yeah, there's no doubt I've released songs, or artists have released songs of mine that didn't go as well as the label I'd hoped. And I don't know where, what happened to the artist. I know. You know? Yeah. But I mean, the other thing is also, is a, I can't think of another time or another You have to be Adele or Ed Sheeran or, you know, Bieber to compete with the writer. Well, that's in pop, but to compete with the writers who have three, four songs in the top 40 at the same time. Yeah.

I mean, you can actually have that and you can't do that as a writer, even if you're featured on things. Yeah. It's tough. But as a writer, you can be, you know, and I know you've, we'll get to that, but I know you've had those. months where it's probably like every song for a half hour of songs you wrote. But when you're in college, you start working for Brooks and Dunn's tour manager. Right? Right. Yeah. So when you're on the road with them, well, first of all, how did you get that gig? And then when you were on the road, were you writing or were you trying to like slip people demos? Like, did you know what you were doing

yet? I mean, I was writing, yes, but I was very careful about, you know, trying to angle my way. And the thing about those guys were great to work for, and I had actually met Ronnie Dunn through his daughter, who I was in college with, and we actually dated for a while. But that's, you know, and she was awesome. And he was just like, when I was getting ready to graduate school, he said, do you have a job yet? You know, and I was like, no. And he knew that I wanted to be a songwriter, but obviously I hadn't been offered a publishing deal. And so he said, why don't you come out on the road with us? And so I went out there and didn't know anything about the road.

But I learned so much. And they were great to learn from, I got to see how the whole live side of the music business, because that's another thing a lot of people don't know that there's this whole other world within live music. I didn't know about it. And so I went out there and we would be on the road from like Thursday to Sunday. And I would get up really early every morning and go find like if we're at the venue,

go find like a dressing room that wasn't being used and write songs. So then when I got off the road, I could go into publishers back on Music Row and play them new songs. Did you ever play them songs? Even not the slipping. I mean, he knew you wanted to do. No, I really didn't. You were just professional. You knew already at the time how to be professional.

all of it. Yeah, I kind of figured out like if you, that's the thing, you know, that a couple people told me, and I still believe this is true in Nashville, not that you don't want to hustle and try to make it happen, but in Nashville, it is still such a songwriter town. There are these places that do open mic writer nights. If you are really talented and have really good songs, people find out. It's like a small enough town. So I just knew if I kept working hard and, I had made just enough connections, like to get in front of people who are actually in the scene to, you know, kind of give me good feedback. And I knew I was on the right track. And then I also told those guys working for them.

If I did get offered a publishing deal, then I was going to not be working for them anymore. And they were totally cool with that. And so I just used it as a great, like, learning experience. And, you know, it was a great job to have. So you get back and when is, that's like early 2000. Yeah, that was in like 2001 and 2002. Right. And then you get a, you get a publishing deal pretty quick after that, right?

Well, you know, the first time I played for a publisher, first of all, there was a writer in Nashville who I knew, he was from my hometown. I didn't actually know him then, but my mom and dad did. And we got introduced, and his name's Bill Luther. And in the late 90s, early 2000s, he actually had a significant amount of big hits, Tim McGrath, Kenny Chesney, all these people. He, you know, really encouraged me because I had played him a few songs, and he, you know, he thought they were good enough to at least get a shot at a publishing deal. So he introduced me to who would eventually become my first publisher, and that was Chris Oglesby at BM. So the first time I played for Chris was probably like during my junior year of college. I didn't get offered a publishing deal until I was a year out of school.

Right. Anytime I had new songs, I'd go in and play for him. He introduced me to other great publishers in Nashville, a guy named Scott Gunner, Carla Wallace, who runs Big Yellow Dog. And these people were all encouraging. My songs just weren't good enough at the time to get offered a deal. Or was it frustrating? Yeah, I mean, like.

It was, you know, it was a little frustrating, but there was enough encouragement that I was like, okay, I just need to keep working harder. And at this point, too, it was just all songs I was writing by myself. Right. So I didn't really start co-writing until I had a publishing deal. Right. I mean, all you need for as an artist is hope.

Yeah, exactly. Because it just keeps you going. I think everybody who has a point of struggling is just because somebody says on the way, like, yeah, man, just stick with it. You got like, that's a pretty close song. It's like, you know, like, keep going, keep going. I mean, it's hard to find those people that are encouraging even when you're not great yet. Yeah. I've learned it as definitely a skill or a talent or a gift for

people who really can recognize potential, who can see it before it's fully developed. And there are, you know, we call them in Nashville song people, like people who just know good songs and no good talent in its rawest form and can see see it becoming and it's like an a and ian person you know and to see it before we we interviewed mike karen and one of the he's one of those guys who always would find these hooks in the middle of iowa yeah and just you know he doesn't care if you're who you are as a writer he'll just say that's a hit chorus yeah i'm going to use that chorus and make airplanes for bob out of it you know you know know what I mean? It's like the guys who just aren't don't care at all. Right. You know,

it's an incredible talent. Do you have that? It really is. Oh, I don't know. I mean, like, can you hear somebody who's totally unsigned on everything and be and say, yeah, that's, that's enough talent that that supersedes everything? I think so. I think so. I think you have to be able to hear those, like even if you hear a song that might not be a hit, but you can hear those things within the way a person writes that are just unique enough that like, it's those things that kind of like, oh, that's, it's like catches your ear. It doesn't sound just like a carbon copy of what's on the radio. Right. And that's what's exciting. Or like, that's like hearing an artist who has a thing in their voice. You're like, what, you know, it kind of almost, you're like,

is that, wait, what is that? Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, and that's what we're, I feel like we're always looking for it. And in writing songs, I try to do that too. Like, if you write something that's, I don't know, that just sounds like a hit, it's like, okay, cool, but like what is that little thing that's unique that's going to make it stand out from all the other zillions of songs that get written every day? Totally. You get your deal 2002, and then from what I can tell, I mean, between 2002, I know you had songs that came out, in 2007 and there's one in between

that I saw but like you have a five year span there oh I literally had one cut um let's see signed in 2002 every year I'm praying to you know get picked up on my publishing deal um my first release was in 2005 it was an album cut on Leon Womack and then my first single

wasn't until 2007 what happens between that I mean are you getting another job subsidize or is the publishing deal enough that you can at least pay for a room somewhere or what? It was just enough. Right. You know, and deal, that's the other thing. Publishing deals are different everywhere.

Like I know in L.A. a lot, it's like cut and release, right? What do you mean? Well, like, are a lot of the deals in L.A., like, how does it work? Because in Nashville, the kind of almost the standard way is you get in. advance right a drop front but it's like a yearly

right advance right with a song quota yeah right and so the options up every year

for the publisher to drop you but at the end of the three or four your term you can get out too even if you haven't

you know right yeah we have an MDRC situation right which is basically means that if

you have to release X amount of songs per term or you get... And I mean, I'll straight up tell you, like my first publishing deal was they offered me $12,000 for a year.

Right. And I was just honest. I was like, well, I can't really live off that. You know, I could have found a way, like, get another job, but if I'm going to do this, I want to do this full time. So I'll just keep the publishing and find a job. And they're like, well, okay, we'll double it. I thought, yeah, 24 grand, you know.

And I thought I was just, and I was, I was living the dream for real because I was getting paid to write songs. And I just, it's like one of the most exciting days of my life, you know, getting offered a publishing deal. Like, wow, they think I'm good enough to fund your music. To pay me to do what I did in my bedroom as a kid. I always think it's weird that in my, in my 20s, when I'm really sort of struggling to, get by getting the publishing deals that kind of thing to stay afloat it was there was always some way that i was out partying drinking having fun and eating food but i don't know how i did because i don't know how i didn't have enough money to pay rent right but i was always

having fun and still drinking you know i did a lot of that too and that's why i had to quit yeah you've been sober for a while right yes for since i was talking about 27. So is there a correspondence between quitting, drinking and this? Oh, absolutely. The year I stopped drinking, let's see, 2005, you know. That's when you have your first cut you were saying. Yep. But I think that just the focus was more there after that. I was having fun and like, but I never was thinking of, hey, what if this doesn't work out, you know? I need to get serious. And so after I stopped drinking, I just was more passionate about music.

Like, I spent more time on it. And really... Did somebody tell you, like, hey, man, you got to stop drinking? Well, I think after doing 48 hours in jail, that kind of... You know, I mean, hey, I said I wanted to write country songs. Right. How did that happen? What did you do?

I had my second DUI. Oh, right. So it was a real like wake-up moment. And so I just thought, you know what? What am I doing here? You just needed some credibility is the problem. Yeah, I was trying to get that street cred. Right, exactly.

So in 2007, okay, so I said in the intro that you have 22 number one songs, and I'm pretty sure that that is as many number one singles as all of our previous guests combined. So it's going to be hard to go through So I'm going to do kind of like a speed through Along with some other questions as we go I'm just doing some highlights Okay Okay

But first of all When did you meet Hillary Lindsay? Because clearly like 2005 you guys write together She and I Hillary and I The first time we wrote was in 2004 I introduced you guys That same writer I told you about

Bill Luther. What are the odds that two people from your town end up becoming professional writers? Not good. I mean, how many people are from that town? 700 people. So it's not good odds. Yeah, right. It's not.

So anyway, he introduces you to Hillary. Yes, and we actually ended up writing the song that was on Leon Womack's album called Painless. On that first writing? Yes. On the first writing. So that was, you know, we. met and we hit it off and then Hillary and I ended up writing a lot of songs just the two of us

and then did she have cuts at that point? Yes she I think she wrote she had already had like a number one or a couple because I still remember her like she said her first number one when she was like 24

25 yeah but you're not producing out these records yet I don't think right? No so you're just writing demos and sending in tapes Yeah. It's crazy. Because I mean, you guys end up going on this insane run. Yeah, you know, Hillary's, you know, I got to write with Carrie Underwood because of her. And as well as Chris Oglesby, he was helping set up Carrie's calendar. But, you know,

Carrie's first record, first album was massive, like seven or eight million albums sold. So for me to get that opportunity on the second one, when I have zero hits, you know, know, first of all, I thank Carrie a lot because for taking a chance on me, but also, like, obviously, Hillary, because, you know, if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have been in that room. Yeah. But it was because of what you guys did in 2004. Yeah, it was the songs we had written that, you know, get the attention.

Did she, so small and last name are, you know, your first really big records. Yeah. And those are both with Hillary. were they written then, you know, sometime before 2007, before people are working on the Carrie Underwood album, I assume, right? Yeah, we probably wrote the, I mean, I guess, I don't know if that was an 06. But she then plays these records and it's just sort of like, yeah, those are, those are going to be huge. We want to cut those.

And then all of a sudden you're part of the scene. Right. So I, you know, and I, after that with Carrie, then, you know, before the next record, if I had the opportunity to work with her again. And in the meantime, you know, it brings more opportunities too because, oh, you're on a song that people actually know. We'd get you in a room with a new artist or whatever. Right.

Does it change your writing process? Like, do you feel any pressure when all of a sudden you're like, okay, here's... I felt more... Yeah, I still feel pressure, but not in a... I don't know. It's a more... I'm more confident now, but my confidence is more like not the pressure that it's all on me.

When I go into a room with an artist, like I know, like I've had enough success that it's like, okay, if this just goes terrible, I don't think my career is over, but I don't know. I feel like I'm always learning new things. And it's being confident to not have to do everything.

Right. You know. Right. I'm going to skip through 2008. But 2009, You start writing with Natalie Hempie and Barry Dean. Yes. Do you start thinking about creative nation at that point?

No way. 2009. No. I don't think so. Because you start writing with the people that you end up being part of your future. No, I wasn't thinking about that. I was, you know, I just, first of all, I love both of them as people, but their songs, I'm just, they're amazing songwriters. Sure.

And so working with, when you get to work with like your best friends and you think they're like two of the best songwriters, it's like, it's so much fun. Wait, so they were, you were friends with them before you're writing or how does that happen? Well, Barry and I first met going back to 2002, the publisher, Chris Oglesby, signed both of us at the same time, you know, really the same month. but Barry had had a whole other career and his story is awesome yeah but we just met and we just really liked each other's people

but we didn't write for a couple years until you know I mean just because you know other writers it doesn't always mean you're supposed to work together but I think we were both fans of what each other did and so when we first wrote we just hit it off and it was so easy to work with him

and Natalie actually I had heard a CD of some of her songs from her publisher at the time. And I was just, like everyone else, I feel like that hears her for the first time just in immediately. Because her songs are so cool and quirky. And her voice. Her voice is ridiculous. Yeah, she just has a delivery that's such an artist. Yeah.

Demos are like are just out of control. Yeah. So I was like, yeah, I want to work with that person. Totally. Did you know Beth yet? Beth Laird your... Yes. Beth and I...

This is always kind of a funny story or neat story, but we met that same month I had my first cut released in 2005. She got her first proper job in the music business as a receptionist at BMG. That's how we met. So I started kind of hanging out up there by the desk a little bit.

Right. You know, hey, what are you doing? You know? And later that year, we started dating and been going strong ever since. But she went on after that to have a few other jobs working at Winswept Publishing and then eventually BMI. And then...

When did you guys get married in there? We got married in 2010. So that was like a year before we started Creative Nation. Right. Was that sort of that you guys are like, let's get married and takeover the world? Was that like in your vows? No, not at all. I mean, I do start a publishing company.

We were just like, how can you guys? can we just do continue to do what we want to do the way we want to do it yeah and um you know fortunately it was at a at a point in my career where i could sell a catalog and we're like let's take this money and bet on ourselves and so she had been at bMI for five years and we just thought this would be a good time to go out and start her own thing was that scary to spend money on your i mean I like the idea of spending money on myself, but I'm terribly frightened to hire people. Yeah, it is. It's a risk. But, you know, we had a couple different offers from some other companies. And we just kind of had a real heart to heart one night. And we were both like, look, if these other big companies are willing to take a chance on us, why don't we just bet on ourselves?

you know, we can do it. I was like, if it fails, I don't think that, I mean, I don't think we'll be completely broke, maybe. It'll take longer to get broke. Yeah. So we just bet on ourselves, and we're still doing that every day. Yeah. And it gets addicting once it starts to work. Yeah.

It's, you know, there's been just enough stuff going on, and we've had the opportunity to work with some other great, songwriters and we just keep going well before we get to the start of creative nation 2010 2011 that's when you kind of start getting all the accolades it's like the CMA triple play award a couple times and is that changing your motivation is that you know at that point your motivation's just like oh I just want to get songs released still you're not thinking you know I don't know what you what happens when you start when you're consistent kind of hits. Yeah, you're talking about not just like one hit every so often. You're talking about you know, five, ten kind of hits. Well, it's weird because it just, in a way, it felt like it

took so long, but then it felt like it happened so fast. And, you know, I mean, I'd like to think some of that is that I've become a better writer than I used to be. And, you know, writing is like it's exercising a muscle. There's things that we do as writers now that are almost second nature that back in the beginning weren't. And I always say like your radar, like maybe your hit radar is better. The more you're in the game and you have to be in it continually doing it to stay relevant and working with new people.

I think what's so important one thing that people forget is just that you're schedule. How are you spending your time? And that's why it's great to have like a great publisher or manager, somebody who's really protecting how you spend your days because there's only so many days in a week. And you know, you have to take, when to take a chance on trying something new that, you know, maybe not be a for sure thing to also trying to work with, you know, the biggest people in the business at the time. Well, that's the same relevant thing. Yeah. Is the, is the, when you're talking about how important it is to bet on yourself. Yeah.

And it's like the hard part is when you're betting on that artist where the floor is non-existent because they don't even exist yet. Yeah. You know, and that thing is what's scary because it's really easy. You could probably work with the classics or still doing albums. You could work, do a whole schedule with the greatest artists of all time who aren't really selling units anymore. but it just, it looks cool or feels cool, but you're like, man, I mean, how many, this sounds terrible,

but it's almost like how many times can you visit that museum, you know, and you're like, you feel terrible about it because you're like, how am I turning down this gig? Yeah. I loved this artist, but if you only go for the artist with the really high floor, you know, you're like, you know they're going to sell some units, but you know that they're not going to, like, it's not going to move the needle. Right. The thing that moves the needle is if you keep betting on yourself.

And it's like, it's so hard. It is. But for me, it's really hard, but it's the most exciting thing, like working with a new artist who no one's heard of or, you know, I mean, like the outside world has it. And you just know sitting in that room, I mean, a lot of different things have to fall into place, but, you know, this could be like the next big thing. And that's what's exciting. And that's why we write songs, too.

I feel like if we all wanted a for sure thing, we would. not do this business for sure. And some days you're like, why am I doing this? Right. But that's what keeps it so exciting because literally you can wake up that day and like there's the chance that we could write just a song that's going to change the world or at least make people dance at the club. Well, the club that we never go to.

That we never go to. But it's weird though because I think people probably assume, you know, when you've had 22 number one songs, they assume their 23rd is inevitable. And that's just like, you've got to be kidding me. Like that 22nd one was really difficult. It was just as difficult, if not harder, than maybe the third one. You know, or whatever numbers they go. It's like you don't know.

There's no guarantee you're going to have another hit ever. And the assumption from the outside sort of perspective is that the hit writers, oh, yeah, yeah, well, they get in the room so then they can have the hit. Well, no, they don't, no label wants to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. on your average song just because your name is on it, you know? It's so true. I mean, there are no guarantees. And I had a writer say to me, somebody who I'm friends with who's having a lot of success right now,

a lot of hits, they said to me, what are you going to do like when they stop? Like, when they hit stop, I'm like, well, that's, that is going to happen. Yeah. I know Hall of Fame songwriters that it's happened to, and it's going to happen to me. and to me like I don't want that to happen but I know it's inevitable and so I really try to

just enjoy the process and like I'm a competitive person but I try to just really enjoy like just wake up and what is in front of me that day try to do the best write the best song I can

and just really try to enjoy it because like you know that moment in a room like here's the thing like having a number one song is amazing it feels good and like in Nashville they really celebrate number one I mean it really is we we get I mean I feel like almost too much praise you know sometimes but it's it's an exciting thing but to me there's nothing better than that feeling of when first of all there's nothing more terrifying than when you go into a room with somebody new and like like oh I hope I don't suck and like I hope I can come up with something but then there's

nothing better than feeling that feeling of once you know you've got the idea going and it's just like it's such a great feeling even if the song's not done it's like you got the hook or something like that you're like oh man we got we got this and it's you can't describe that um part of the creative process you just can't compare it to anything else it's the best it's the best there's nothing there's nothing that staring at a chart isn't going to make you happy absolutely yeah i obviously I only have one country hit of any sort. Oh, yeah. And they sent the billboard or whatever the poster that they put outside of the, you know,

Warner Chapel. Yes. And it's like I have, I have this six foot by 10 foot thing in a giant tube. I love it. And it's like in my garage. And you're like, where, what do I do with this? I mean, just put it on the house, I guess. Just just on the outside of like a song from three, four years ago.

just be like, yeah, just in case you guys forgot. That's the other thing. You have to, like, doing this, people forget really fast. Like, no one knows how many number ones you have unless it's you or your wife. So that's the other thing. It comes and goes so fast. So you just have to enjoy the moment. And, you know, I don't know.

Legacy is really stupid. I always feel like the idea that if you ask kids now who Paul McCartney is and they don't know what Paul McCartney is, it's like, it's a lost cause, whatever I do. If I'm trying, if I'm concerned about them knowing me, it's not, that's not how that works. I mean, the thing is doing this or anything, yeah, the whole legacy thing. I mean, you, I just want to do good work. And I mean, I hope my legacy is that I was a good husband and a good dad. Because at the end of the day, like, you want to do well in your career, but no, no amount of number ones or hit songs or dollars is going to fulfill that you know because it's a it's a fleeting thing so just getting to be part of it is really the win you know yeah i mean

it's a it's a drug in that sense because it you know you're just going to be chasing that adrenaline but let's go to 2012 so um uh you get song road of the year that's just pretty rad um you have uh take a back road which wins song of the year yeah and then pontoon breaks a little big tone. Yeah. Breaking my hand. I guess that doesn't break Eric Church, but it's kind of like one of his biggest. Yeah, it was his first number one.

Oh, it's his first. So it does kind of break him. Well, I mean, look, he would have. I mean, he's still big. Without that song, he'd still be. Right. I can't fool myself here. You breaks, Chris Young?

I don't know if it broke him, but it was a big hit. I mean, the difference of being the guy who's right. writing the hit song again, like for like the established artists. Yeah. Versus this sort of puts you on the, on the page of like you have the ability to break number, like a number of artists. I like the challenge of it. And here's the thing, you don't know what's going to work or not.

But it's exciting when you get to be part of an artist for like this last year, this guy, John Party. Yeah. Like getting, getting to be part of his first number one song was exciting because I knew he had the ability to do it but like you said there's just no guarantees i mean i know a lot of just crazy talented people who've never had one number one song and it's it's just not a given when you do pontoon that's with barry and natalie is that the beginning of creative that's after they're part of creative nation no but that i i kind of look at it look at it like the beginning

beginning of creative nation only because like first of all Creative Nation doesn't own that song but that was like the first song that Beth pitched like once we were starting our own thing and so it was just one of those

like that whole timing was really cool that song was taken off and we were starting Creative Nation and Barry was you know like the first writer we had we ended up signing and Natalie was after that Yeah. But, you know, it's fun when you can work with your friends.

Yeah, it's so cool. It really is. And that song shows it. Like, you don't write that song if you don't like the people you're in the session. There's no way you're writing those lyrics if you're like, I really want to get out of this room. And I can't wait for this to be over. Let's just say this is a good chorus and move on. You can't do that in Pongtoon.

That thing is like you guys are having. Oh, man, we had a blast. Yeah. You also write with Neo that year. That's your first release with, like, that's, like, you're kind of, I guess you've had, you had some pop releases, but that's like an A-list. That was one, yeah, I mean. An A-list pop artist that you're now writing, now you're starting to, like, cross over.

Was that the goal? Yeah, it was kind of, well, I mean, I just want to work on music that I, that I like, you know, and that was, like, one that I got to co-write and produce. You got to co-write with Neo? Yeah, it was just like. I actually met him through Carrie Underwood. Okay. He had, I think, reached out to her camp about working together,

and then she pulled me in on the right. So the three of us wrote a song that's never been released that I still really like. But then his manager called... My guess is you could still release that, and that would still do very well. That's an amazing duo. It's a cool song. But then his manager called and asked if I wanted to come to Miami to work with him. So I actually went down there as a producer.

Not as a, were they like, you know, play some tracks? Yeah. So it was like, like I think when I first met him, he didn't even, he thought I was just the producer. Because, you know, in that world, it's like your track guy or top line. But with what I do, it's kind of like. You're a songwriter. What do I need to do? You know, so like if I need to make the track, I'll do it if you don't want my beats.

I'll write. Well, I like that when, I mean, you get it in the beginning of pontoon. You get the idea that like here's like this quirky way to treat, you know, a mandolin, right? Is that what it's in the front of it? Man, you know, that was actually played by Jed Hughes. Okay. I didn't come up with that. But I'll have to, after we do this, I should play you the demo.

Yeah. It is so dirty and raw and simple. I mean, we haven't done that many songs together, but the songs that we have have been like, you're doing beatboxing and you're playing guitar and kind of roughing up like some weird simp. It doesn't sound like it's not at all what you would think, you know, a country producer, in quotes,

would do to show off a song. Well, the other thing is, too, I've found, too, if you can make something unique, like a demo unique, That's what's going to catch an artist's ear. If it's just a straight up professional sounding, like yes, it may sound like a hit. It could be on the radio, but sometimes you want to do... But it might sound stock.

Yeah, exactly. And it's what you're trying to do lyrically, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I just try to have fun with it and just, I don't think about the technical aspect if something's distorted, you know. Right, of course. If it's just getting the feeling across. It kind of needs to sound like,

when you're recording on the taskam back in college. Yeah. So that way someone's like, oh, yeah, that sounds real. Yeah. I mean, when you're going down to Miami, are you actually, you come prepared with some tracks. I have a few, like, things started, but I also just am ready to start from scratch.

Yeah. And that's when you guys wrote. Mm-hmm. Because it sounds like something kind of personal. Yeah, it's very, yeah, it was just, that was one of those songs that didn't need a lot of bells and whistles. Yeah. And, yeah.

In 2013, it looks like you actually started producing a bunch of records that you didn't write. Was that, were you doing that before that? Not really. I just kind of fell into that for some reason. I mean, it's strange because because of the demos that you're doing before, you know, they're all these unique records and then they become these unique masters because of it. And then all of a sudden people are like, yo, you should do. Yeah, and that's one of those tricky things because, you know,

I could easily go out and just try to seek out a lot of. production gigs, but that's not what I moved to Nashville to do. I moved to be the creator and write the songs. Yeah. So it's a, I enjoy production a lot, but at the same time, it's just, it's more like my idea of producing is like being in the room while we're writing it and kind of going from there. Right, of course. As opposed to just taking a song, I've done it from someone and then okay go do your thing um you release one of those nights downtown um somebody's heartbreak uh beat this summer get me some of that you have a bunch of other number one songs and then you have Casey musgraves and Shane McAnally yeah that was like of all the songs that I

just listed that were number ones. At that point, you kind of just have like a stable of like, that's part of like life and your day job in a weird sort of way. Yeah. And then you have something that you put, you actually are with an artist before it really happens. You executive produce it along with Shane or Shane produces it with you. Yeah, we both produced and wrote that. And Casey too. I mean, it was it was really a group effort. I met Casey. Beth actually had my wife had worked, was working at BMI. And in all her time there, she came home and she's meeting with new writers every day and only ever told me about two people in five years. One was Casey Musgraves and one was Brett Eldridge.

But Casey, she's like, this girl, Casey, I think you'd really like her. We put her on this show tonight over at the basement, which is this club in Nashville, bar in Nashville. And so I went and that was the first time I saw Casey just heard her and her guitar with some other writers as well but I was I was just blown away by her songwriting and as well as I liked her delivery and kind of almost how understated but really talented

and so we met after that and just started writing songs together doing demos and then Casey and Shane and I started writing together had you worked with Shane before that? I'd only written like one song with him so this was just if you know We should do this project together, all of us. It was Casey totally orchestrated it.

She's like, she came to me and him separately and like, I want you guys to produce and work on my record. And she didn't have a record deal yet, but we were both such big fans. I was like, I'm honored, but if it's going to keep you from getting a deal, like if they want you to work with Tony Brown or something, I don't want to stop that, you know,

because I just like writing songs. Is that like self-deprecation or you really thought, like, you know, I just want to write you. the songs, you know, I don't have to executive produce it. I want to, I just wanted to do what was ever going to get hurt to the next level, and so I didn't want to hold that back because I liked the stuff we were doing.

I wanted to make sure it was going to get heard. I mean, but to get heard also, it's like here's a woman releasing an album in an era of country that has, like, Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert, and that's about it. I mean, I know, like, you know,

obviously, a little big town and Lady Inabellum, and, you know, there are some women who are on radio but for the most part it's like two women and then it's a slew of dudes like are you nervous at all it's like you know no man this girl's dope like let's just do it i literally was like i just this music inspires me and she's such a phenomenal songwriter that i knew it was unique so i'm like if it never does anything i'll never regret spending time on this because i love it and that's how i feel like with any new artists that i work with right of course in 2014 you have Give me back my hometown, which is one of my favorites.

American kids, huge record. And there's so many Sunshine Whiskey. Mean to me. I mean, you start winning all kinds of things that you didn't win before. I mean, it sort of brings you to even another level that probably you weren't expecting to exist. You win Best Country album with Casey. You know, you get the Triple Play Award again and another CMA song. Song of the Year, you get ACM winner for album of the year, you get all these things.

You get the nominated for Songwriter of the Year, a songwriter of the year, a song I wish I would have written a award, a bunch of things. I mean, like, at this point, are you, you're now like starting a family during this time, right? When was that? I don't know, 2014? Yeah, so our first son, Jake was born in 2013. Yeah. And, you know, honestly, like, I think, I guess all that was going on, but I don't feel different. differently as far as still kind of working at the same pace.

Just things were happening, you know. It's weird because it's so nice once you actually make money doing this. You're like, oh, I can probably drag this out for a few more years. Right. Yeah. That's a uniform feeling too, I think, right? Yeah. Because it's that thing of, you know, the faucet's going to turn off that thing.

Sure. You know that they're going to say, you know, sorry, bro. your songs are not really good anymore. It's not, yeah. How long can I do this before they figure me out? Yeah, well, I know. I feel like I've been fooling people for years, but still, you know, getting to do it.

And my approach is still the same as it's always been. I'm sure I've picked up little things on the way, but it's the same. In 2015, you're kind of part of the huge, like, Luke Bryan next level. thing. I mean, as far as artists go, I don't know if there's a bigger artist in the last 10 years. Right now, he's really, you know, at the top of the game and country music and, you know, sells out everything. Yeah. Yeah, I had written some songs with him and, you know, fortunately had one on his last record and one on this record. It's, you know, I haven't had tons of

Luke cuts, but I'm grateful for the ones I have. Yeah, for sure. Talladega is massive. Man, there's so many records, dude. Gunna, T-shirt. T-shirt, speaking of Thomas Rett and our friend Joe London over here,

sitting on the bed. Speaking of massive. Yeah, exactly. And that's the John Party year, too. Head over boots. Yes. In 2017, starts with, you know, you already start with the Triple Play Award and the, you know, nominated for a songwriter the year again on the ECMs. What's next?

Man. I mean, is it, obviously, Creative Nation is, like, is continuing to grow. You guys are, are releasing songs that are doing well on a regular basis, you know? And Natalie's now doing her solo music and Lori. and McKenna put out a record We put out a record We're a record label now as well Yeah

So come on guys When did that happen? Honestly You know how the music business is now There's just no limit on It's like one of those times in the business Where it's kind of scary But it's also really exciting

So like if you do want to put a record out You can do it You know It doesn't just have to be a major label thing Do you team up with people to do promotion? Yes. And, you know, honestly, Beth, she really heads up all of that. But like with Lori, she introduced Lori to Dave Cobb.

And they hit it off. They made a record. And we're like, well, I guess we'll put it out. And so 30 Tigers does the distribution. And she got, you know, nominated for a Grammy this year on that album. So it's like, oh, I guess we're doing this too. Do you think, is it hard to run a business and do the music stuff at the same time? Or no, because Beth is doing it a lot of it.

No, it's not for me. But it's a lot of work. Is it hard to show up in a session and be creative? Or maybe that's why you like doing sessions in the morning? Yeah, you know, I think that if I was without Beth, I would not have my own company like I do, like we do. I'm just better off in the studio or writing. I know where my strengths and my weaknesses are. And I have way more weaknesses than I do strengths.

When we've done country stuff, you know what's going on in the pop world. And when I mention country music and pop sessions, I tend to get blank stairs, but I always show all of these country records. I'm like, yo, check out this lyric. this is insane. Did you show Charlie the Florida Georgia line? Which one? There was, he referenced a song.

It was actually a song Thomas Rett wrote around here. Oh, no. Because he was like, man, I love that line. I just was like, what? Yeah. I show stripes all the time. Because you showed me that. And I was like, oh my gosh, Stripes being Brandy Clark's Records.

I mean, and that is Nashville at its finest, you know. And my thing is I love all kinds of music. And different songs are great for different reasons. You know, like, in Nashville, you know, traditionally it's been so lyrically based that if, you know, there's been some people, like, if a song isn't just like this amazingly brilliant, wrapped up in a bow lyric, people are like, oh, it's not a good song? Well, then why are people still singing it 20 years later? Right. Yeah, I like, I love the most elementary, lyrical pop song to the most creative, well-written lyric, country song. And just, you know, it depends on what kind of mood I'm in or different.

I think it goes back to me loving like Michael Jackson. Like, there's still, like, nothing that feels better than that to me. When you're in country sessions, are you bringing up pop records as references? Or is it, or is there, you know, is, or when you're in pop, sessions are you bringing up country records as references or are you able to sort of divide the difference and it's just sort of whatever song we write today is whatever song we write today yeah i mean probably probably a little bit of both i mean it just depends i mean i'm always listening to new music so but i don't i don't i'm not necessarily good at like breaking down okay this song the bpm is so and so

like i don't know i just try to write something good right do you feel like i'm not as analytical about it. You writing, because there aren't a lot of people who cross over in the writer or artist world. Yeah. Why do you, why are you writing with Snoop Dog? Like, obviously because Snoop's the shit, but like, I know you did your session with them and like, I think that's probably your biggest achievement in life. Yeah, I mean, the song's never even been released, but it was, yeah, I love the music. I mean, it all comes back to like, I just, if I like, if I like, what the artist does, I'm going to maybe try to work with them. Or maybe not, but I appreciate so many different kinds of music. And if I like it and listen to it all the time when I'm driving around,

why would I not try to work with someone like that? Oh, yeah, of course. It's just interesting. It's just like it's a unique position to be in that you can get in the room with Neo and Snoop. I don't know how, like, believe me, I'm just a surprise, like, why would they want to work with me? Right. Well, the thing is if they, and when they get to know you and they're like, like, oh yeah, no, this guy actually, this guy's not, this guy's not, he actually is good at writing these kinds of records. Yeah, I mean, I'm very, I'd be, I want to be very familiar with the music. Like, I don't just try to get on, like, if it's an artist too, I genuinely just, I'm not a huge fan of the music, whatever, even if it's the biggest artist in the world, I'm not going to go

try to work with them just to hopefully get paid, but I just enjoy working. music that I like working on it. All right, so I'm going to just name five things and you just tell me what's sort of the first. We don't have a name for the segment. I always say that. I must not got to this part when I listened. Go ahead.

No, it's okay. We kind of just started it. So I just say like the first thing that comes from my head? Yeah. Eric Church. Badass. Natalie Hempi, Barry Dean, and Lori McKenna. That's one.

One word? That's one word. Oh, I don't know. That's like one. That's one statement. The best. Yeah. Brandy Clark.

Unique. Carrie Underwood. There's a lot of... You can use more than one word. She's really the first big artist that believed in me, so I just think grateful. Yeah. Ashley Gourley. Unmatched.

Guy has more number one. I think than anyone I've ever had in Nashville he's got like 33 and... Do you find it competitive with Rodney Clawson and Ashley?

All you guys are friends like I love how you guys co-write with each other so it's not like you guys... It is, but you know like that's what you're up against and when you sit in a room with someone like Ashley or Rodney this isn't by chance

that these guys have done what they've done. They are phenomenal songwriters and like in Ashley can he could write three songs a day that are all hits. It's so fast. And the thing, you know, the thing that I most respect about Ashley is he is doing this at a pace that I've never seen, but he also, like his family doesn't come second to that.

Like he is an amazing dad and father. I mean, I respect that more than anything, just to see someone who work at such a high level but still have their priorities straight. It's really hard to do. I don't think he sleeps. Right, right. No, I think that that's the right focus. But to end, you know, you were the first person.

So in 2012, we meet. And we were in Aspen at a writing camp. That's right. And you were like, at the time I had had cuts with, I'd had a few cuts, Maroon 5, Nicky Minaj and stuff. But I hadn't had any singles, really. And, you know, it's those things along the way the people who say, like, yeah, I'll spend a day with this person, you know.

And at the time, you had had, you know, probably 12 number one songs. So when, you know, to spend a day with you is really important because it was, that was the first time where I was like, oh, if those are the people writing country because my wife loves country, my dad loves country, then I kind of want to learn this. And I spent so much time going back and forth to Nashville because I was like, I like these people. And I like this vibe.

And these people are like our world class songwriters. and I had no introduction before that. So, you know, the fact that you're able to jump back and forth and that you care to jump back and forth and that both sides of the industry really want you to come back and forth is like you're a cool role model to writers not just in Nashville, but in the pop world too. So I appreciate you doing this.

And I think you're doing amazing work. I'm excited to see what happens with Maggie Chapman. I'm excited to see what happens with the rest of your career and Creative Nation. And congratulations and thank you. Man, thank you. Congrats to you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed,

be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at anandthwriter is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and The Writer Is. We'd done our show, and we come off the show, and it was just a crazy thing, and he walked back over to say, well done, great show, he'd watch the show, and we're like,

shit, this is just crazy and I closed the door and then I hear Hey Jude being playing on acoustic acoustic version, hey Jude and I'm thinking, man, this is just coming through the speakers of the venue, this is awesome

and they're playing like an acoustic version of hold the fuck up and I opened the door and there's Paul McCartney sitting on the back of a golf cart getting ready to go to stage. Just warming up. Just warming up and he's singing Hey Jude. Until next time this is Ross Gowling.