And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 142: Wayne Coyne (The Flaming Lips)

Episode Date: September 13, 2021

Today’s rockstar guest is a member of one of the most iconic, influential, unpredictable and vital forces in American rock music, The Flaming Lips. During their tenure, their ever-evolving, GRAMMY Award-winning sound has become a genre unto itself and contains lush, multi-layered arrangements. Lyrically, their compositions reflect the light and dark in all of us combined with bold experimental production that breathes life into their space-age-prog, punk pop and appeals to a broad spectrum of music lovers around the globe. Known for their elaborate live stage shows, THE LIPS have become the ultimate live rock experience with the likes of Q Magazine and Rolling Stone naming The Flaming Lips one of the "50 Bands to See Before You Die." Their reputation as canny songwriters and great performers have made The LIPS an actively sought out collaborative entity who have participated in numerous, oddly diverse recorded and live performances that include Yoko Ono, David Lynch, Philip Glass, Bon Iver, Lightning Bolt, Coldplay, Beck, Nick Cave, Erykah Badu, Thievery Corporation, Grace Potter, The Chemical Brothers, Jim James, Miley Cyrus and many more. The band recently achieved yet another set of “Firsts” by being the first band to perform prophylactically for late night TV (Colbert/Fallon), and NPR’s Tiny Desk Concert. In January 2021, The Lips played The World’s First-Ever Space Bubble Concerts with band and audience safely encased and physically distanced within their own individual clear Space Bubbles in their hometown of Oklahoma City. And The Writer Is… Wayne Coyne!Artwork: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www.com. And the writer is.com. Welcome to Anna Update is.

I am your host, Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update. UK Watchdog says Sony Music's AWOL buyout raises competition concerns. The UK's competition and markets authority. has decided that Sony Music's completed purchase of the recorded music services firm AWOL from Cobalt Music Group raises competition concerns following a phase one investigation into the buyout. Sony must now address the CMA's concerns within five working days. If it is unable to do so, the deal will be referred to an in-depth phase two investigation.

As I was recording, I just got a new update in Cobalt Music Group, which sold AWOL to SME in a $430 million deal in May, has since agreed to buy back a chunk of equity in its company from shareholders for the cumulative price of nearly $90 million. Ryan Rudin has joined Capital Music Group as EVP of experiential marketing and business development. Milk and Honey has expanded into Australia. The firm is located in Sydney and will be covering talent in both Australia and New Zealand. Apple Music has officially launched DJ Mixed technology to ID and pay rights holders. The identification process has been developed with major labels, DJs, as well as DJ mix suppliers, like festivals, clubs, and promoters.

Round Till Music Royalty Fund Limited has acquired the master royalty income of Dennis Elliott, the original drummer of the rock group, Foreigner. The catalog comprises 71 original recordings spanning the first seven foreigner studio albums. The U.S. Performance Rights Organization Sound Exchange has promoted Tim Dadsen to General Counsel. Santiago Menendez Pidal has been promoted to, the role of President Southern Europe at Warner Chapel Music. He will be based in Madrid and report to Guy Mute, co-chair and CEO of Warner Chapel Music. According to the U.S. headquartered performing rights organization, Kelly Turner, president, and COO of CSAC is exiting the role to pursue a new

opportunity outside of music. Wasserman Agency has expanded into Germany with the opening of an office in Dusseldorf. Valpensa has been promoted to senior vice president, head of marketing, at RCA Records. Stubhubh has cleared final hurdle of Viagogo merger with sale of non-U. Sony Music Korea elevates Bobby Zhu to managing director. Relative music group and partnership with Sony Music Publishing has signed country music hitmaker Nick Donley to a worldwide publishing agreement. Arlo Park's debut album, collapsed in Sunbeams, has won the 2021 Hyundai Mercury Prize.

The Swedish tech startup Stacks has agreed to content deals with leading rock label Ear Music and music programming distributor White Light for its new streaming service for concert video. Sloppy Jane has signed with Satisfactory Records announced in tandem with the release of party anthem their first single with the label. A big thank you to Haley Evans of Mega House

for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's episode of End the Writer is. Welcome to End the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's last name is He's the front man of the most unique live band in the world, The Flaming Lips. This prolific audiophile has released 17 studio albums, 18 EPs, and four video albums. At 60 years young, this guy will still roll over you in plastic bubbles and not just during a pandemic.

He has spent his life dedicated to art, music, and generalized weirdness, and even has a matching tattoo with his pal, Miley Cyrus. I'm battling Yoshimi. You've heard him in commercials for computers and on Beavis and Butthead. Originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, this front man inspired a whole generation of artists, including myself. And the writer is Wayne Coin of the famous. Wow. That's amazing.

I mean, I was laughing, but out of entertainment, I loved your enthusiasm and your volume and just your sheer and joy. of that introduction. Well, thank you. That was a great introduction. Yeah, the strange thing is the more you get to know me, you'll see that that is the most excited that I get in life. This is my, I'm from a zero to ten. I live in the four to six range. Well, is this like a four or is this like a ten?

I think that was that, that was like a seven and a half. Oh, good. So that was, I was pretty excited. So we have, we have some room to go. maybe it'll get even better. I'm pretty excited. Yeah. Good.

Good. I have, before we get into your story, here are some anecdotes that are kind of fun. I don't always do this, but these are two weeks that are very strange, or that I saw you. The first time I saw you was in 1994 at the Q1-1 jamboree. This is right after she don't use jelly was like first hit.

This is in Chicago. In Chicago. Yeah, there you go, yep. And this was when I think, you know, I think Duran Duran was headlining the main stage, maybe Stone Rose right before. Perfect. Yeah, yeah.

I remember that now. When you mentioned Duran Duran, I don't remember us doing anything, and I don't remember the Stone Roses, but I remember the Duran Duran part, yeah. Yeah, and it was, you know, it was a thing where the side stage now would be the main. stage at any major festival kind of thing.

You know, and you know, Sponge was on there and all these things. Maybe it was when Bush was just started. It was all this era of music where bands were really bands. You know, I mean, maybe I'm an old man saying that. No, I understand what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess bands could get on radio for being unique. not, you know, there was an acceptance of music at that time. I don't know.

I mean, I want to get into the story, but while we're on that, what was it about, in a way, the post, not post grunge, it was like this cousin of grunge. There was a bunch of these bands that were pushing the boundary on, you know, past what R.E.M. was doing in the 80s, not what Grunge was doing in Seattle. It was this music where you were, it felt like you were encouraged to take risks.

Well, I don't know. You know, part of, I mean, R.M. We're amazing. You know, I mean, R.M. were very inspirational, even though, you know, maybe by the mid-90s, they felt like they were, you know, had their thing had already passed. You know, the grunge thing when it started, I wouldn't know exactly.

Is that 1989, 1990? You know, for us, we were, we'd been going up to Seattle all through our life, you know, and we knew the guys who were putting together subpop and who actually, you know, I think we played with Nirvana, maybe one of the first shows that they did in Seattle. We were coming through town and Jonathan Ponyman would put bands with us. Like, you're going to love this band. And we almost always did, but we especially loved it when the Nirvana opened up for us in Seattle before anybody who knew who they were and stuff. So, I mean, I felt like that was very exciting, even though I think there was another thing going on with like Jane's addiction at the same time.

And they would have been perceived as more art, rock, even though they have a little bit of a metal edge to them with, what's the guitar player's name? With the boa. Yeah, it'll come to us, yeah. But we love them as well. And I think, you know, the idea of alternative was still, you know, that was all baked into there.

You mentioned Beavis and Butthead. I'm not sure that many people nowadays would know what Beavis and But it is. But, I mean, all that, it was irreverent. It was, you know, it was kind of scene-oriented. All that stuff, you know, we sort of embraced that. But I don't think at the time, especially in 1993, 1994, I don't think we felt as though we were particularly grunge. I don't think you guys were grunge at all.

That's what I was saying. I think we were some grunge. Yeah. I mean, we had gone on a long, long tour with Candlebox. Now, I don't know if you'll remember who Candlebox was, but they were kind of, you know, the third commercial generation of what original grunge was. So I say maybe we were more like the original grunge,

but by time we had played for three or four months straight with Candlebox, who we loved as people and stuff, it just wasn't our crowd and our type of music. We were clearly of the idea of like, we're not like them for better or for worse, you know. And by 1994, yeah, you know, I think our songs you don't use jelly was being played, not tons and tons, but played enough on alternative radio stations. And like you said, the MTV stuff.

And all that for us was, it was exciting, it was fun. It was, we were insecure, like, are people going to think we're like Candlebox? Because we're playing with Candlebox. some people did. I still, I have to say even to this day, I still getting messages on Instagram and even being out there when we're on tour

and meeting people who will say, you know, I was 15 years old when I saw a candlebox and you guys opened up for them. And they were my favorite band then, and now you're my favorite band. And so, you know, that's, I think the Flaming Nips are probably a band

for people who love music. And, you know, everybody when you're 15 and 16, you pick music that you can relate to and get you through your identity crisis or whatever it is you have. And I don't know if the flaming lips are very good at that, but I think if you really do love music and are interested in music and being creative and all that, I think you would stick with the flaming lips and go, wow, look at them. They do a lot of stuff. Dave Navarro is the guitarist.

Dave Navarro. Yeah. And yeah, I think that was. the other thing that happened in the 90s and probably during some element of warp tour though I think that was like a little bit after me I think I know I'm more on the Lollapalooza of things and I felt like that was an age where people would

where bands that were good live could develop a following because of their performance live and and now it's you know the live scene is a little more complicated for, you know, budding artists now have to build their audience often on social media in order to get people into the room to then see how good they are. Sure, yeah.

I mean, for me, it's always been, that part of it is always a little bit of an unknown. Like, you know, the idea that how do bands, how do they get known? And I mean, we were very lucky with that one song, she don't use jelly. And it took a couple of years for it to really be, you know, this initial one-hit wonder thing for us. But I have to say, even at that, we were very grateful and very much like cool, you know,

because it just lets you do more stuff. Let's you see more of the music industry. If you like it or hate it or whatever it is, it just lets you be exposed to more stuff, do more stuff. I think by time you were at this show in Chicago that we played, that would have been one of the years where we

had played in Chicago maybe 12, 13, 14 times. We would do that, you know, probably the previous year we were there all over the place. You would play radio shows, you'd play all kinds of shows. And I remember people thinking that we were from Chicago because we played there so much. Now, I mean, I think

last time we played there was Riot Festival, previous to the pandemic and stuff. Still wonderful, but in those days, especially I think at the beginning of the alternative radio station thing, you could be there quite often and it felt like this could be the next big thing.

It could, you know, I think that was part of it. You know, it's kind of new, and nobody really knew where it was going to go. And so I think, really, a few years after that, I think we started to know that we weren't going to be like grunge, whatever it was sort of congealing into in the collective mind of music people out there.

And I think we were kind of glad to be like, you know, we're not really like that. So we're going to go this way and whatever's going to happen with the grunge movement. Maybe we'll have benefited from it, I guess, or maybe we're going to suffer from it being connected to it. You know, all those things you think about when you're young enough. I want to start from the beginning.

I said you were born in Pennsylvania, which is true. It's true, yeah. You know, there's a group of amazing musicians that have come out of Oklahoma that it's somehow this really hot spot for great musicians, and that's really where you grew up. Yeah, yeah. Born in Pittsburgh, but didn't really live there. I mean, I think as soon as I was born,

everybody jumped in the station wagon and headed to Oklahoma, yeah. Did your parents play music? No. I mean, you know, I think there is a painter, an artist in the legacy. Is that the word would be legacy in the family tree or something, you know, in there somewhere. But not a musician. And I would say even of myself, I only say it because I'm around these musicians of the caliber of Stephen and Derek and stuff. I'm not really a musician.

You know, I was very lucky that when the punk rock explosion kind of happened in the very late 70s, early 80s, and especially the punk rock stuff that was happening in America, you know, it just was a way to jump in and say, well, I think I can do this. You know, we weren't very good musicians. Don't aren't very good musicians. I mean, I myself and Michael aren't. I mean, some of the other guys are stellar musicians, you know. And then before we knew it, we were, you know, we were making music and making records.

And, you know, we thought, well, eventually everybody's going to find out that we're just impostors, you know. Aren't we all, you know? And so that part of it, you know, I mean, I think we started to make records. You know, we made our very first record ourselves. And we discovered that we loved making records. and really... What's that? Where did you guys...

Well, I mean, obviously, you know, Mark, you knew... My younger brother, Mark, in the very beginning, was in the band. Yeah. Where did you meet the other people in the band? My younger brother knew Michael's brother. So Michael's brother went to school, and then they said, well, Michael's playing bass. And then the drummer that we used in the very beginning, he worked with the crew of guys that worked with my father and he was you know and then and we knew lots of musicians

around Oklahoma City. You know, my older brothers, this old drugs, I knew everybody in town that was doing, you know, cool stuff. So I would always be around, you know, dudes and bands and dudes, not professional bands, you know, but they would be, you know, bands that you're going, they're seeing them play at their house and they're doing Black Sabbath covers and stuff like that, you know. But no one was really, by time punk rock came up. along. No one was really playing any kind of punk rock. You know, there were still, they, all these guys that we would know, you know, they'd still be playing Jimmy Hendricks and, you know, Led Zeppelin and stuff like that. The stuff that I could really never play anyway, you know,

I could never even play some of the simplest Beatles songs, but I didn't stress about it that much because I would just bake up my own song, you know, which you come to find out, that's kind of what you do. Figuring out other people's songs is great if it leads to you, you know, being able to write your own songs. Whereas I couldn't figure out their songs. Even when some of my brother's friends would try to show me and I would say, yeah, that's great, that's great.

But I think it would just make me think of a song myself. And then I think of a song and think of lyrics and stuff and just so I think that's probably what it triggered in me. And then before you know it, I'm writing songs. and the guy that I was talking to before you jumped in, you know, the idea that if you love writing songs, it doesn't really matter to you if they're the greatest song ever or the worst song ever.

You know, you're doing it, and it doesn't really, you don't really judge it that way, you know. So that part of it, I think, really freed me up to not necessarily be, I'm not a musician, but I write my own songs, and if they're unique or whatever, that would help, you know. when you start writing I imagine knowing how your lyrics

were on albums you know from you know from later in your career that how unique they are talking about spiders and robots and yeah but when you get into when you're first starting

are you are the lyrics as quirky as they ended as they've always been or did you ever write those kind of beetly lyrics that were just you know well i mean i mean beetles got some quirky lyrics too but you know were you always writing lyrics that were i almost want to use like a picturesque sure yeah well i think in the beginning you know we always felt like such dorks because we'd had nothing to really sing about. You know, you'd always envy someone like a Joe Strummer or Jim Morrison or someone. You're like, well, they've got these

insane crazy lives and then they just sing about it. And we were just dorks and we just were normal. You know, we didn't have, we didn't know what to sing about. So you would kind of make up this imaginary story that you place yourself into, you know, which, you know, 30 years later, you kind of find out that's what songs are. You know, you just, you inhabit your songs. You build a song so you're the main character in it or something, you know. But no, in the beginning, we had no idea of anything. You know, we would be influenced by bands like the Minutemen or Black Flag or even Echoing the Bunnymen

and, you know, British bands and America bands altogether. And we didn't know how to sing and we didn't know what to sing about. But, you know, bands like Meek Puppet, and butthole surfers and replacements. You know, they sing about their friends and about, you know, their local bar and doing drugs and things. And all that seemed like, we could do that.

And didn't really want to be compared to, you know, Beatles or an REM or bands like that. It was like, well, they're real groups, doing real music and it's emotional. And it's about their life and everything. And we felt we were kind of, you know, insulated. We're like, we're just weirdo punk rock band. It doesn't matter what we sing about, which really kind of helps you.

Because if you're so insecure and you want to sound cool or whatever, you usually sound like an idiot. But if you're just being very free and having fun and singing about whatever comes to your mind, you know, some of that really works. So when I, you know, and we go back in our catalog quite often. I mean, the flaming ups have a lot of records, but we're always reissuing in them and always sort of, there's a lot of record store-day things that you're always involved in.

So we're always hearing our early stuff. I often hear even our very first record that we made in 1983. And I love it. I'm like, who are these guys? This is amazing. Why are they doing what they're doing? And so in that way, yeah. What are the, what's the first song?

You know, when you're writing with that band that you're, you know, you guys are, generally speaking, still kids, right? Sure, yeah. 21, 22, yeah. And you're, when's the first time you finish the song where you're like, oh, this is worthy of us spending our own money in the studio? I mean, who's your engineer? What's that experience of being the 21-year-old version of you

who's, or 22-year-old version of you, where somebody says to you, hey, let's, we should try, recording this. Right. I mean, you know, like I said, most of the bands that we knew, you know, that they would, we could run into them. They would come here and play

a black flag and the meet people, but, you know, they would play to sometimes 20 or 30 people, and you would be able to sit there and talk with them and know they, how, the way they did their stuff and they put out their own records or whatever. So all that, you know, just seem like, well, we should just do it ourselves, which, you know, if you're waiting to impress

someone, you're waiting to get signed, and you're waiting for agents to come and discover you and all that. If you're waiting for all that, you know, you may wait forever. We never felt like anybody was going to discover us. We were just going to do it because that's the way the bands that we were liking. That's the way they did it at the time. So I think that was a great, great stroke of luck. And so before we knew it, we were just making records.

My father had a kind of a thing where he would trade doing labor for other. people's labor and one of the one of the people that he had done some work for was this studio that we would end up going to and i think we had built up six or seven hundred dollars worth of time that we could go in there um wasn't very much but for in those days it was it was it was great you know so he went in and we thought well we'd better come up with some songs so we came up with a couple songs and the engineer there i think was slightly annoyed but he was good and he was fast i mean i'd see that now I didn't think it at the time, but I see that now. And he let us kind of do what we wanted.

I mean, we took in, I don't know if people will remember what a boom box is, you know, but it had you played your cassette in them and speakers and everything with a battery-operated boombox. And we went in there with a cassette of Pink Floyd's first album. And we used, we made a sample on our album using a cassette from Pink Floyd's first. you know, Piper at the Gates of Dawn. There's a little snippet of Pink Floyd's, one of their giant records, on our very first record.

Nobody knew how to do anything. So we just would turn the tape on at the right time. Here's where it goes, you know. And I think the engineer thought that we were completely crazy or whatever. But, I mean, we were all nice and we all enjoyed doing it and all that. And then the way that he sort of mixed it, was he would allow us to kind of, you know, say, do this or do that. And some of it was great.

We were very glad that it turned out weird and good. And luckily, it sounded amateurish and charming, which are very hard qualities in a way. You know what I mean? A lot of people want to sound professional and tight and in tune, which are kind of, you know, they're kind of boring. And when I hear it now, I'm like, this is, it's marvelous. us how, you know, it's kind of how dorky it is, but still expressive. So in that way, I think the engineer really did us a great, great favor and didn't say

you're not playing very good, you're not playing in time, you're not singing in tune very good. Maybe he heard that it was slightly charming, which is very hard to do, you know, so that, that part of it, I think we just got very lucky, you know. And then people liked it enough, you know, there's nothing worse than playing your record for people or they get it. And they say, oh, this is horrible. And it really does crush you, you know, because you think, well, I don't know what to do now, you know.

And we were very lucky this first thing, just had six songs on it. And we sent it out to every cool underground magazine at the time, every cool college radio station or whatever. And we got some of the best reviews you could ever have, you know. And that really set us for the next couple of years like, well, there you go. See, we're cool or whatever. And if those reviews would have been bad, it would have. it would have crushed us. We wouldn't have known what to do.

You had goals at the time to do what? What's the purpose of sending? I understand recording in your hometown, but you obviously are thinking big enough at that point if you're sending tapes out to the biggest magazines. Well, I mean, I think we found out about a lot of groups because of college radio stations. They would play something like, wow, I've never heard that.

How would I have heard that? That's amazing, you know. And we found a lot about groups from underground magazines. You'd read about it and say, this is amazing. Of course, nowadays, you can read about something. And within five seconds, you can be listening to it and you can be reading about it, listening to it all the same time. It doesn't matter when the music was made or where it was made or whatever.

But back then, it would be quite a commitment and quite difficult to say, what was that band again? I heard that. and now I want to go find the record. And so I think we were, we felt like if you, if you're like us, you know, if you, if you heard about us, you might think that we're cool and want to hear our music or whatever. So it's just more like that, just self-promoting, you know. What was the song that radio stations started picking up? Were you just sending the six songs or were you purposely sending out, you know, hey, these are the six songs.

And there's, you were. Right. It would have not been at all. calculated in any way to other than like to say, here's our record. You could have it for free. Remember certain regions or a certain city that was like, oh man,

that DJ just started to love. Well, I mean, even there was a college radio station 20 miles south from where we live. We live in Oklahoma City and it was in Norman, Oklahoma. And we knew some of the guys that would have radio shows there, you know. And I was still working with my older brothers

and with my father. and one night, driving back from a job that we were doing in Texas, we were driving through Norm in Oklahoma. At the exact time, one of the DJs was playing a song off of our record on the radio station. How insane is that the first time you're listening to yourself on a radio? Like, oh, my God, you know, you almost crashed the car, you know. And then the very first time that we played in Minneapolis, we played at the 7th Street entry,

with part of the big First Avenue venue up there. We heard ourselves on the radio pulling into town to play there. We only played to like 12 people, but we heard ourselves on the radio. And again, it's like it's so, so exciting. We're going to the place where Husker Do and the replacements and all these cool bands where they're playing us on the radio. So, you know, all that, you can't, you can't ever think that excitement.

That's enough. I mean, we would never have looked further ahead to say, other than like, for the next couple of weeks, this is going to be really great. And you'd be traveling around the country and playing shows. And, you know, like I said, we didn't know how to play anybody else's music. So writing our own music and, you know, making up our own music was all we could really do. How does one afford touring around the country without label support and on a record that they're, sending and playing for 12 people? Well, I mean, you don't.

What do you do? How do you actually, because you did that for years. Yeah, well, we, I mean, but we thought of it as that was really just the way that we would do it. All of us worked at like fast food restaurants. And in the free time, sometimes we'd be like, you know, we're going to leave for Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday and come back, go straight back to work at the fast food restaurants. You wouldn't make any money.

I mean, all the money that you'd put into just gas, and we wouldn't even stay at people's houses and wouldn't even eat at restaurants most of the time, you know. But that was normal. I mean, most of the bands that we knew were doing the exact same thing. And then there would be some bands later as they would go, you know, meat puppets, bubble surfers and even Sonic Youth and stuff. You know, they would start to be like,

we're doing better and better as we go. And the more bands, you know, that were doing it, the better, the sort of. circuit sort of got. I don't think we knew it was a circuit at the time, but you know, you could definitely go, there were places you could go in Minneapolis, in New York, and Chicago, and Austin, and Athens, Georgia and stuff, you know, so it, and it was exciting enough. I mean, I think we were being paid in just experiences and excitement, and that we were, you know, we were actually in a band playing shows to other humans. It seemed like a giant leap of something anyway, you know, a year

earlier we're just people wanting to do this. Now we are really doing it. So I think in that way it was, it's just so thrilling and so life-changing. It's hard to explain what the 80s are. For a lot of the bands that we knew that broke in the late 80s and 90s were the underground bands in the 80s, early mid-80s. And, you know, the mainstream 80s are,

you know, really clean synth stuff or it's, you know, or it's, you know, really kind of heavy, long hair, that kind of thing. But it isn't this, you know, you don't realize who the, the Pixies still existed. You guys exist. Yeah. Yeah. We're really like thriving underneath the radar. And like you said, the objective wasn't necessarily the path. you've later gone to, when did you start thinking, oh, this is not, what was the trigger where you could see around you? You know, you've done a, you know, fast forward a little bit, you've done a few albums. Yeah, yeah. Four or five albums. You know, you're still doing probably bigger and bigger venues,

but you're still doing moderate venues compared to radio festivals. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. what was the difference for you to see, you know, who are the first people to say, hey, you're not, you know, what you're doing in this smaller circuit, we could throw some fuel on the fire. Let's get you in front of these kinds of people.

And let's introduce you to the music. Right. What's the difference? There wasn't anybody that was, in a sense, for us. You know what I mean? We just started to know that some bands were being, you know, more successful. I mean, you mentioned REM and there would be, like the replacements, even Hussker Do, I mean, all these bands,

like you said, there was a, I don't know if we felt this way, but I think for the mainstream music, you did, there was hardly anybody from the underground that you would even recognize. I mean, there's the mainstream music from their, at least the early 80s, you would have no idea that this guitar, you know, freaky guitar music was being made at the exact same time. But I think that's kind of,

I don't know, you know, that thrill of it being actual underground music, you know, you kind of had your own energy about it. And I don't think we ever thought about it too much. Until we started running to bands, and they would be getting signed to labels. And so, you know, we got signed to a label

out of L.A. We didn't have an agent. we didn't have a manager. One of the guys at the label just really loved our first record. They wanted to re-release our first record. And we were like, oh, this is great. And then we asked them to make our second record

if they would give us some money. I think they gave us $2,500. But we had to go to Los Angeles to record it. I think we recorded the whole thing in just a couple of days. But it was all day and all night. I remember we hadn't slept for, you know, then maybe a couple hours in the middle of the night, you know, after like 48 hours of making our,

what would be our really first record. And it was insane. You know, here we are, we're just these dorks from Oklahoma. And we're going to L.A. to make a, you know, a crazy punk rock record in L.A. It was the first night we got there, there was a earthquake. I remember standing in a doorway of the studio. And, you know, it was just like amazing experiences.

You just, you know, just the luck of that, you know. I remember one of the first times we drove through Canada seeing the northern lights. You know, like this is this is the, this is a dream that you think of, you know, I mean, just being insanely lucky. And a lot of it is happening fast, you know, and so you don't really have that much existential dread in between. You know, you're kind of moving from one thing to the next, and you're writing songs, you're not really asking everybody,

is this good or is this bad, you're kind of just getting into it. But then some of the songs, you know, I hear them now, I think some of the songs are like, oh man, these are great. They're simple, they're weird, they're unique. And that would start to be, that would start to catch people. But I think it was mostly that we were making records, so you could listen to us. You wouldn't just have to see us play. And then we were really discovering that we loved making records.

And we wanted to spend more and more time, you know, making them and figuring out how to make them sound cool and all these little things we wanted to do. So our agenda really all through the, you know, the desperate, desperate 80s up into, we get signed to Warner Brothers is really just to do anything that we can so that we can make another record. You know, we'll tour and we'll make whatever money we can, but we want to get to where we're making another record. And the record company that, you know, was encouraging us. Yeah, let's keep going. Let's do it. And then we're very lucky that an intern from San Francisco came to work at Warner Brothers. It was a big, big, flaming up fan from where we had played at the radio station in San Francisco.

and he just hounded this ANR woman that he was being an intern for to listening to the flaming lips and signing the flaming lips. And she was crazy. She wasn't absolutely crazy at the time. She signed us, but she went on to be more crazy. But wonderful, wonderful, powerful, eccentric lifesaver. You know, she absolutely loved us. She loved me. I remember asking her, like, what is it about?

about us, you know, like we don't sell any records and, you know, we're not sexy or anything. It's like, what's the deal? And she's like, I don't know, Wayne, you know, I just like the way you smile. I like your teeth, you know, and, you know, and we're looking for real answers. No, tell us the real thing, you know. And in a way, it's like, that's, that's just it. It's like, I don't know. I just like it. And I like that you're getting to do your thing. So a lot of, lot of luck that we would, you know, if it would start to seem too desperate or we're losing, you know, too many things at one time or whatever, you know, luckily something would come along. And when Warner Brothers came along, you know, it's another jolt of like, yes, you know,

we can, I live still in the house. This studio, this is my studio that's right next to my big house that's right across the lawn here. We bought this house that I still live in with the money that Warner Brothers gave us for our very first record. You know, we told them we were going to buy a big house. We could all live in it. We could record in it. It'd sort of be our base, you know, forever. And it ended up being that, for me anyway, you know. And I think they just really, they really loved that they were making a band. They were encouraging band, this creative entity. They were helping us do it. And by then, you know, we'd run into, I don't know if you wanted to fast forward this much, but by then, you know, we'd run into Dave Fridman. And he was already, you know,

becoming like he's going to be a producer. He's going to be a guy that's making cool records. So we had him and Jonathan Donny, who went on to be in Mercury Rev. Yeah, he's a great songwriter too. And so there was a lot of, you know, we've never lacked stuff. You know, if someone called us up and said, could you go into the studio and make a record tomorrow? We'd be like, oh, yeah, easy, let's go.

You know, and we would just figure it out. And with Dave Friedman and Jonathan and the group that we had at the time, And we were, you know, we were energetic, enthusiastic, and we could make up stuff, you know. And so I think all that really helped us, you know, that you're creating your own stuff. And that's the part I do try to, you know, relate to people. Like, you know, if you're hoping someone comes along and helps you with all this stuff, you're wanting someone to do stuff for you, it's never going to work. It's like you just got to be doing stuff.

You've got to be doing, doing, doing. Because, I mean, nowadays, it's like it's not just writing songs. It's not just playing shows. It's, I make videos. I'm doing a podcast with you. Everything that you do is about your art, about your music, about this thing that you're doing. Yeah, you had the, when you said that you made albums that you started falling in love with, in a way, sound making. Yeah.

Yeah. If I think of Flaming Lips, I think of the. how cool the album sound. And when I see it live, it's like, well, that makes sense. But those are two different skill sets. They are. And people don't really think of that. I mean, you know, and I can understand.

I mean, a lot of people probably think you sing and play guitar and you put some microphones in front of you, and that's what your albums are. You know, and little by little, we started to be, we can make anything. You know, the studio is really, anything is possible. And then we would figure out,

well, what are we going to do about that when we go to play live? And there would be a brief time. It would come up all the time. You know, there would be, we'd go for three or four years of playing, and then we'd think, we just want to make records.

We don't really want to play that much. And I think that really helped us, you know, because little by little, we didn't know what kind of band we even wanted to be live. Which albums were those? This would have been like from 1996 to like the year 2000. We're making this record called Zyrika,

and then that goes on to become like the record that is the soft bulletin. And we just sort of completely redo our whole identity, even mostly even to ourselves. Like it didn't matter what we had been before. Now we're just going to be this band that made this record the soft bulletin. And we didn't really think anybody would like it. we didn't think it would be popular, but we knew in our hearts, like,

we want to make these kind of records. We don't really care what anybody thinks, you know. So we didn't really think that we'd have to go out and play. It wasn't really like, well, you're going to make a record, and then you have to go play a thousand shows for the next, you know, five years or whatever. We didn't really think like that. People started to like the record, and then it started seeing like, well, we should go out and play.

And I think because it was so, it didn't, it wasn't like we didn't care. we just didn't really know what to do. That started us doing this other type of show where I stood up there and I'd pour blood on my head and throw confetti and people would dress up in animal costumes, all this absurd stuff, which really is what we're about now. At the time, it was just, let's just do this. I have no idea what we should do.

But we were doing songs from this album, Soft Bolton, which really are pretty sad songs. You know, there's something about them that's emotionally kind of, deep or whatever. And we knew most of the kids, I mean, by then we weren't kids, you know, but most of the people that were coming to see us

would be in their early 20s, and they're going to be taking acid and having fun. And we didn't want to bum them out. You know, we didn't want to say, hey, you know, you've got to take this serious. We're playing like this deep, deep music or whatever. We were just glad anybody would come to see us, and we thought, whoever's here,

we'll sing these songs, but we will entertain them. You know, and I think that was another great leap forward for us. that we could look at ourselves as being entertainers instead of artists or whatever. I think you can really be both. There's a time when you're being creative and you're doing your art

and there's a time when you could say, I'm just here to entertain these people. And that was a great realization for us that these people would show up. It didn't really matter what songs we sang to them. That could be from our heart. But this idea that when they're there, we put on this absurd show,

that really suited us. And the more we did balloons and confetti, and blood and animal costumes and lasers, the more they liked it, or the more people would respond. And we got to kind of disappear behind all the stuff. So, you know, we're not really born entertainers, but we're doing this very entertaining show.

And as long as all the stuff is happening, I think we felt like, oh, this will work for us because no one's watching us sing or watching us play. They're just watching this crazy show. Nowadays, I think if you walk into a flaming nip show, it probably looks like that's what's going on. You're here to see the guys play and sing and do their thing. But I think we came at it from,

don't pay attention to us, you know, we're just the weirdos making the sound, you know. Was that just insecurity? Yeah, totally, yeah. And, you know, we're not extroverts like that. You know, we're just weirdos that want to make records. And the other side of it would be, well, we'll go play these shows. And so I think that's probably why they seem so unique, because we just weren't.

And I try to remind people, it's very hard to do these things without ego. You know, I think most people get into stuff because they think, well, I'm great and people will love to see me sing. You know, we never thought that. We always thought, well, we know we're not great, but we like making records. And maybe we can get some people to come to see us. And if they do, we'll throw confetti on them and we'll be very glad that they're here. And so, you know, all that is just a way for you to kind of fix yourself to say, I have to stand up there and play. And like you said, you know, early in the show, you know, Duran Duran is going to be playing and then we're going to play.

And it's like with Duran Duran are these, you know, these charismatic, you know, English rock stars. And then we're just these dorks from Oklahoma. But we've got to sort of do, you know, we're in the same, on the same show, you know. So, yeah, it was, I mean, it's not difficult. I mean, at some point, you just say, well, we're freaks and we get to play music. That's great, you know. Do you love performing now the way you love recording, or do you still love recording most? Well, that feedback that you get when the audience is utterly moved and, you know, are there with you, that's, that probably keeps you young.

That probably keeps you so energized and so full of this, you know, this adrenaline or whatever. But it's such a big responsibility. And, you know, especially nowadays, but shows being like such a, you know, we didn't realize what a bizarre thing it was that you could just go to concerts all the time. And now we've had this whole year where people can't go to concerts and get that connection. I think that spurred us on to even doing those space bubble shows. you know, the idea that you want this connection. So it's probably better for us now,

because I don't want anybody to think that we're up there thinking, oh, gosh, what are we going to do? I mean, we're 1,000% committed. It's like, if you come to see us play, it's going to be great. And we absolutely want to be there. We want to sing our songs for you. But it really is about our music. You know, it's that we get to present our music.

And maybe I'm presumptuous, or maybe I don't really know. I just get the feeling when you go to see like Beyonce. She's like, I know you want to see Beyonce. You know, I know that I'm great and I know you're going to love it. And I do, you know, and I've seen her and it's great. But we're not really doing that. You know, we're saying, well, we're just these people.

But we get to play this flaming lips music. We get to be the people that play it. And that's why we think you're here because you know this music and this music has touched you. so we feel this great, it's like a responsibility, great honor, a great thing that we get to be the people that sing that. Again, it's probably the exact same thing. But for us, it feels different. It's not about us.

It's about the music. And even though people will say, you've got all these lasers and all this stuff up there, you think that it kind of confuses people that it's not about the music? And to me, it's not. To me, it's like it makes the music even more easy to absorb. There is simply nothing else to pay attention to. Yeah.

It's so overwhelming that you go, oh, I get it. Your senses are so. What's that? There's purpose and choreography and not literal. Well, maybe. Yeah, yeah. There's a choreography in the show that feels like it supplements the music and it enhances the music in a way that, you know,

if people haven't seen it, you know, it's important to see it. And, you know, how else are you supposed to do a show based around the soft bulletin and Yoshimi all the way till now? I'm just saying, like, if that's the moment, how else do you do that kind of show? If you're playing, if you're recording albums that sound like that, then, you know, to not do a show like that feels like a disservice to it. Well, and we do want to entertain people. You know, I don't ever assume that people love every song that we're going to play. You know, it's like once you're there, it's like it's kind of our job to say, well, you're here. I'm glad you're here.

Now we can entertain you, you know. I mean, I've been to some great, great shows where I know every song the band's playing, but after a couple of hours, I'm not very entertained, you know. So, you know, our goal is always to be like, no matter what, you know, if you don't know any of our songs, if you've came with a friend who's a big fan, but you don't know any of our songs, you'll still love the show because that's just what we promise. Do you Because of the

theatrical nature of your live shows Was it something you guys Actually I keep using the word Choirographer or artistic directed Or do you actually have somebody Do you have people that you love working with

To help? No I mean it's us I mean we definitely have people that are helping us Put it all together Because you know Stage shows are They're a big endeavor

whatever but no it's us but I think it's mostly that feeling when people are emotionally kind of screaming and clapping and that sound of a crowd really losing their minds that's so amazing you can't you can't know how great that feels you know and once you know we can get to that you know we can get 5,000 people in here absolutely screaming and and at the peak of their energy, once you know you can do that or that that's a possibility that it could happen on that night,

you know, you want that or you try to get that, because it's so amazing and it really does seer this music and these experiences into your being. It's so interesting as somebody who's not an extrovert to see that show you say that you're not an extrovert

and then seeing that show and having a crowd yell at you or with you I can imagine you know how confusing that must be when you go back to your bus or your hotel room in your line no no I mean

I mean you know I can understand that it's a it's a reaction to all this stuff you know I mean, it's the music has to be done well and has to sound good, and the lights have to work, and the videos have to work, and the lasers have to work. And all this stuff is working on you to get this reaction, you know.

So we never, I mean, for us, it's not a confusion. We never sit there and think, well, they just think we're great, you know. Look how great we are. We don't ever want to play a show without our music sounding great and without playing songs that they know. And, you know, we try to play almost every show with a great, great show as well. well. So yeah, I mean, I think it's a presentation that's making the effect. And, I mean, we stand there as if like it's about us. But we know. It's like this is stuff that's kind of

having an effect on you. Yeah. If you go back to, I'm intrigued by the switch to the soft Bulletin where you you then you know if 93 you have you don't use jelly that's six years from the success of that

to doing an album that is like you said has a little bit of sadness in it didn't you feel the pressure to release radio hits or didn't you feel the pressure from a major label

to do music that the kids like these days or how do you go from you know the fringe of the box to still being on the fringe of the box without just giving up I mean what

right yeah well I mean luckily I always say lucky when it's something bad has happened you know it's like she don't use jelly it's successful but it's over a couple of years You know, it comes out in 1993, but it really is, it takes till like 1995 before we're on like Beverly Hills 902 and stuff like that, where it's kind of hitting a mainstream audience. But it's not selling a million albums a week, you know, we're selling great amounts of albums and all that sort of stuff, but it's not so mega that you just stop your whole life and say, well, now you're just doing something completely different.

And we had been around already for a long time. So by 1995, you know, we've already been doing stuff for 12, 13 years, and we've already made a couple albums on Warner Brothers. And we've already seen some people, some bands that we know, who we thought were quite great to try and fail. And they would have been signed to major labels and have already been dropped, you know. And I think we knew that we wanted to make cool records, and we didn't really know how to do hits.

And that we wanted to make our records ourselves. So, you know, part of what we're doing is like when she don't use jelly is successful, well, why don't we just go get the big successful record producing team that's doing the hits for Atlantis Morse and all these people and just make a record with them? And we would be like, oh, I don't want to do that. What's the fun of that? We want to make our own records. And then I think Warner Brothers would say, well, if you're going to make them yourselves,

let's see how it goes. and I think if that wouldn't have ended up, not ended up, but if it wouldn't have sort of produced something like the Soft Bolton, I think we probably could have said maybe we should have had some big producer or something. But, you know, we're working with Dave Friedman. By the time Soft Bulletin comes out, that's 1999. We'd been working with him for 10 years, 10, 11 years almost, you know, really saying we're going to make this record, we're going to make it.

And so I think it was just simply that. Like I think if we didn't really know that we could do it, we probably would have given up. But once we made the soft bolden, we felt so, it was just so rewarding to have made it, regardless of whether anybody was going to like it or the world was going to embrace it. It didn't really matter to us. It was like we made it, was what we wanted to do, was difficult to do, we didn't know how we were going to do it. But it's, you know, we stood there like, well, okay, we did it. And we really kind of, I don't know, in a bad way.

we didn't really expect Warner Brothers to like it either. I knew that they would love it as music. I knew they would love it as art and creation and stuff like that. But they still have to market and they still have to try to sell it. And they still have to answer to the powers that be, you know. And I think they were smart and they were patient and they were like, you know, good, good music always works. It's just, it's going to work, you know. And they stuck with us and we stuck with it.

And you never know when times are turning. You know, we see that even with 2019 turning into 2020. You know, at the end of 2019, if someone would have said, for the next year and a half, there's going to be no music. You'd be like, no, dude, you don't know what's going on. And things are always, you know, there's always a lot of unseen forces going on. And so I think by time we put out the soft bullden, there was a feeling of a new world is happening,

the new music is happening, new ideas are happening, and we just happen to be making this music at that time when people were thinking that. You can't ever predict that. You couldn't market that. You couldn't be smart about that. You couldn't, you know, there's just nothing you can do. You just kind of have to do the thing that's in your mind

and in your heart that you want to make. And sometimes the world turns in the right way. And so. Yeah, there's definitely a problem. projects where the world happens to it, you know? And it's not, I think we've talked about that a lot on this. A lot of us are trying to make songs, you know, you try to will the songs on the world or the music onto the world.

And that's not really how success happens in music. You want it to happen that way. And that's how we all create is we know we have this hope that this music is maybe as good as we hope that it is. But it's not the same thing as people over time accepting it. And, you know, obviously, you know, as a songwriter, there's a difference between at this time, you know, soft bulletin going to Yoshimi where you, there are melodies in Yoshimi

that are, to me, really pop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But lyrically, you still chose to, you know, you're telling, you're telling a story, I guess. Well, you say the word chose. I mean, I think that's part of it, too. It's like, you know, we're just doing our stuff, you know. And I think with all groups that get to make,

to get to be around a long time and to make a lot of records the way we have, I think we're always sort of going in and out of being influenced by the world and absorbing the world and absorbing music and figuring out what music is out there. and then we sort of turn it in ourselves where we're really only influenced by ourselves. You know, what we're doing is influencing the next thing we're going to do. And I think that's what's happening with the soft bolt and in Yoshimi. It's kind of like, at some point we're like, okay,

we kind of know what we're going to make and we're just going to make it. And we don't really know if it's great or if it's ridiculous or if it's unique or if it's, but you're not really asking anybody. You know, he's like, I'm just going to make it and here we go, you know. I mean, but that been said, I mean, Dave from him is very, you know, he's a big, brain guy and he is connected to lots of music. And even all the folks at the record label, you know, when they are listening to something, you can tell that they love it. And that does, that helps you, you know,

to be successful to make money, to be in the top of the charts, you know, all that stuff. No one really knows how that works. It looks like people do because they do it over and over and stuff, but it's all still just a crapshoot, you know. But to really make great, great, great albums and to make great art. You know, everybody, when they hear them, they say, well, that's great. Can we make it a success? Well, I don't know. Let's try, you know.

So, you know, when we're making Yoshimi, we're getting a feedback as we're going. It's like that is really helping us. It's really encouraging us and taking chances and being ourselves or whatever. And you can't know how great that's going to be. and what's going to happen. I know you said it colloquially, but... I love that word. But when you say a crapshoot,

it literally is a great metaphor for what it's, where your odds are that you're going to lose. And you may have a string of stuff that works, but when you're aiming for charts, your odds are still that the casino's going to win. You think you have a shot, but you, you know... Well, I think when you're the... The flaming lips.

Yes. I mean, I think there's probably some things that have a better chance of working. I'd say, like Beyonce and Rihanna, that feels like it's got a lot more potential than a flaming lips record in that commercial sense, you know, that there's a lot. Yeah, yeah. I guess I wasn't saying in a sense that if it's a crapshoot anyway, my point, then why not make sure that you're at least releasing music that you're proud of that's. That's exactly it. That's exactly the equation. It's like if anything could happen, why not just do exactly what you love?

Because that could happen too. And when that happened to us with the South Bolton, it even happened to us which you don't use jelly. People still think like, yeah, what's the secret? It's like, there's no secret. I mean, we were just making our own weird music and that one song. I mean, and I would even say when we made it, we felt like it had a special quirk that just a normal person. on the street who listens to music would go, I mean, I said that we played with Candlebox.

You know, we played, I think it was almost a hundred shows with Candlebox. And when we started to do the tour with them, you know, they started out playing to 5,000 and 6,000 people. But as it went, their record was selling a million copies a week or whatever. You know, by the end of we were playing to 15,000, 20,000 people a night. And we were just embracing the idea of they would absolutely hate us, which gives you a kind of energy, too, to know you're going to go out. out there, it wouldn't be 20,000 people,

but half of them would be there. You know, we'd be playing our music. But even though they would hate and with a lot of volume, disdain, everything that we were doing, we'd place you don't use jelly, even to that crowd. And they would, oh, we kind of like that one. Then we'd start the next song and they would start hating us all over again, you know. So we kind of even knew then, even though I don't think they knew the song, they just thought, oh, well, that we kind of liked.

Now, so I don't, you don't know what it is, you know. People had that opportunity now. Now, you know, people write a song, they write a song and record it often in the same day. Yeah. And they don't even have,

you know, and then their labels choosing what the single is off of instinct or math or something else. And they miss out on oh, the crowd likes this song. So we should go with that one. Well, at the time...

It democratizes it slightly. But that's a real-life voting mechanism when you play a show and you're, oh, these people clap. Well, right. I mean, our manager even said that at the time, it's like, look, it's going to be a drudgery. Even though I have to say, you know,

candlebox did. They paid us more money than anybody had ever paid us. And so there wasn't like, it wasn't like a total, why are we doing this? You know, we knew going into it, we could count how many shows and how much money and all that sort of stuff. So it wasn't like we were sacrificing our lives for it, you know. But our manager was very smart. He said, if you keep playing the song in front of people,

Candibox at the time would have radio programmers, you know, bringing all their friends to the show virtually every night that we'd play. They were a big, big alternative radio band, almost mainstream, you know. And these radio programmers would love you don't use jelly. And you could see it happening in a marketing kind of strategy. The longer we played with Candlebox, the more she don't use Jelly got played. And it was absolutely true. So, yeah, why people like a song, who knows? I mean, there's no magic to it.

You just hope that they do, and, you know, you get running, you know. Did you, and this is the last one of these albums, I know we don't have all day, although I'm down to. to do this all day. I love it. When Yoshimi has a through line to it, did you ever write a short story attached

to it? Did you write it as you went? You know, did you make it for telling the story? No, no. I mean, it's an audible musical to me. Well, how did you do that? We were about halfway through

with the album. You know, we'd been we've been trying things and we were stumbling upon this sound that's kind of like sort of funny electronic stuff with kind of folksy song with a sheen that sounds like a Madonna record or something at the time. You know, it's very commercial sounding, which was the which was kind of the experiment that we were doing. You know, we were trying to sound

we would listen to things on the radio that we liked anyway. We'd say let's try to sound like that. We'd try to figure out all the the EQs and the delays and all the kind of, you know, so we were very not calculated, but we were going for a sound. But we didn't really know what it was going to be about. And Stephen had a really great, simple song, and we didn't have an identity, it didn't have lyrics and stuff. But we were recording with this woman that we knew from the band,

the Bortems that were also on Warner Brothers, and her name is Yoshimi. And we had done a lot of recording with her, and she plays trumpet, she plays drums, and she sings, and she screams and does all this great, great stuff. And we've been sprinkling her into some of these songs. And I really did say one of the songs sounds like Yoshimi battling robots. It was something we said while we were recording one of the songs.

And I know that Dave Friedman and Stephen, we both kind of looked at each other. We were all in there together kind of like, maybe this is where we could go. And I said, let's make it like a pink robot. You know, that makes it more flaming eclipse or something ridiculous, you know. And with Dave and with Stephen there, it's kind of like, yeah. I think you're right. Let's do it. And really, within the next 20 minutes,

we know we're starting to make songs that include this idea that it's Yoshimi and the Pink Robots, even though we already had songs like Do You Realize? And really, quite a few of them. You know, there's four or five at the end that we say, this is, we're conceptualizing now, that it's going to be about Yoshimi Bowls of Pink Robots. And then we would go and sprinkle more stuff into the songs

that we had before we'd come up with the idea to make it all feel like one, you know. So, but that's pretty normal. You kind of want to go into it not knowing what you're doing, but if you're lucky, you know, when you sort of turn the corner on its identity, you really do have some stuff and you can move into it and do it, you know. Otherwise, you know, you can get kind of lost with records not having much of a, they're not very, not identifiable and they go all over the place.

and not very satisfied or whatever. So that was, but again, you know, by then we, what, made, we'd already made 10 or 11 records. It's a lot of records to make and made them on our own. So it wasn't like, you know, some big producer going to come in and say, well, look, fellas, really, here's how you should,

you should be doing it, you know. It was us deciding, and we'd made a lot of records with Dave Fredman. I think by then we were all one big, giant, energetic brain, you know. So if I thought of something, it was already something that Dave, was going to be able to execute. We're all in it the same way with Stephen and myself and Dick Friedman. And those are insanely lucky situations that it would be difficult for any young person just wondering how things are made to wiggle their way into this situation

where that explosive creativity can happen and be paid for and be accepted and work and see it all the way through to the end. So, yeah, you know, I don't, you know, there's so much happenstance going on that there would be no, don't follow our map. Don't do what we did. Exactly. It's always the advice for musicians. You know, obviously at War with Mystics

follows this trend of doing music that's changing sort of how we hear it and we could go into it, but I want to move on to unless there's anything you want to add specifically. I'm at your mercy. I love it. I love your enthusiasm. Okay, cool.

But in 2008, is the next time we meet, which is at South by Southwest. And you were doing something for Jay Leno. Oh, wow. Okay. And that was, you had just released, I think you had just released, or you were about to release

once beyond hopelessness? Is that right? That's the soundtrack to the Christmas on Mars movie. You're probably right. I mean, you probably are remembering better than I. I am. I just remember meeting Jay Leno and Amy Winehouse.

Yeah, yeah. It was, I mean, and I think by then, you know, we would just accept whatever absurdness came along with being in the flaming lips. You know, though we're an underground band and though some of the lot of things we've talked about, it's about the music and it's about the records. there's a lot of things that can happen to you that are just absurd adventures. And so, you know, Jay Leno says, do you want to do a little, you know, hey, I'm Wayne South by Southwest. You know, I'm sort of reporting for the Jay Leno show.

And part of you's like, no, I don't know what I don't know what to do. Why would they ask me? And another part of you is like, sure, why not? Let's go for it. I have no idea what to do, you know. I mean, the reason why I brought up that thing is because it was a time where here you were in the middle of Sixth Street and

this is Flaming Lips if you're looking at all these bands and we were playing there and I'd play there a few times I guess at that point

and I just remember it's like oh there's that's Wayne Coyne from Flaming Lips and I don't know if there's like a more of a mecca

for a band like than Stop by Southwest in that this isn't stop by Southwest now where it's you know, it's like, this is the McDonald's stage.

No offense, it's south by southwest. I know that they've changed. Right, I understand. Yeah, yeah. The last two years have been before quarantine. I know I played there again, and it's changed a little bit back to where it was. But, you know, that was, that's a different thing when you start feeling a little bit of fame in your business. Did you feel that?

Did you have, when you said it's hard to, you know, having ego. and not having ego as a musician, did you feel, did you feel the weight of being, ever feel the weight of being the front man to flaming lips? No, I mean, not in that way. I mean, like I said, we would just embrace the absurdness

and not really think this is going to make us bigger stars or make us more important or people are going to understand us more. I mean, I could stand there and totally understand, you're seeing me on the street going, and this is absurd. And I would stand there going, yeah, this is absurd.

That Jay Leno is, I'm doing the Jay Leno show, and I'm talking to Amy Winehouse. I mean, to me, I'm still, I'm just like you saying, this is, this is cool, it's absurd, and whatever. And at the same time, knowing that this could all just end tomorrow, you know, and then we're just, we're back to nobody paying attention. You know, so, yeah, I think that's all part of it, you know. But embracing the absurd is, you know, it's a great lesson in life.

You know, you don't really always have to know what's going to come of it. And sometimes it's bad things come about it. You don't really know. Well, part of the absurdity is how many pop stars admire your work and other artists. But you end up with these, you know, songs working on Kesha and working with Miley. Sure, yeah. And a lot of people, you know, people can look it up. but, you know, it's that thing where it's,

you have Jay Leno and Miley Cyrus, who are the best at what they do, you know, looking at you as like, and, you know, being fans of yours, I imagine that there's an element of that continued, this is so bizarre, this is. Well, with Miley, I mean, I mean, we were beginning to know her just as a friend

and we knew she was a fan and all that. And for me, it's like, well, we got to make some music together. That was just the very first thing I would say, like, let's do some music together. And, you know, if it went badly or we didn't like it, we would have done a song together and said, well, that didn't work. And we would have moved on. But it was a time in the Flaming Lips where we were kind of like, well, why not? And then we did a couple songs, the more stuff we did. And I'm spurring it on.

You know, there was never a time when Miley said, we must make a record together. You know, it would sort of be like, I think we're making a record together. I would just show up with another song. And there would be a big party going on out at the pool. And at 4 o'clock in the morning, I'd say, I'd have to come in and let's sing this song. She would and we'd have another song. I mean, I just embraced the whole, just bizariness of the whole thing.

And at the time that we were with her, you know, in the 2014, 2013, 2013, 2014, she's, you know, she's one of the, you know, the most talked about stars in the world. and then we're going to parties with her. Yeah, it was pretty absurd. And on that level, it is absolutely fun because it's like, I don't really care what people think. And my girlfriend, Katie, who's my wife now, I mean, her and Miley, we're just the best of friends.

So I'm, you know, I'm not, there's nothing in it that's bad for me. This is all, we're all having fun. And then I am, you know, I've got an agenda. I'm starting to want to make a record. And I'm having her, we're writing songs and we're having her sing. And her other producer, Mike Will, would be there a lot too. And I loved him and even doing stuff with him, even sitting there with him, was just, here I am again.

I'm like you. There's Wayne with Mike Will and Miley Cyrus. This is bizarre. I would say the exact same thing. Like, I'm sitting here with these people and we're making music. And I would just go with it, expecting any minute someone to walk in and be like, no. Do you think you're making a record? This is not happening.

No, this isn't going to happen. I'd be like, I know. What can I say? But yet we did. We just started to do it, you know. So, yeah, I'm doing both at the same time. I'm pushing it ahead, like, well, maybe it's going to happen, but also prepared for like, this is so ridiculous.

No, no one's going to let this happen. The third time that we ran into each other was in 2014, and for sure, I'm surprised I remember this. Maybe I was slightly inebriated. It was backstage at Bonarue. And I don't think it was that you were wearing butterfly wings. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I'm pretty sure that, like, it wasn't,

I don't think it was the night you guys were performing. Maybe it was, but I think you guys were, but anyway, it was one of those things where you're like, as time went on for me being in 2014 or 15 or whatever it was, and seeing this guy on stage and then being backstage with someone that I was, you know, knowing your band so well was this really cool moment of this cool to see this life that I'm leading in the music industry

and watching, you know, getting, interacting with people. Oh, well, that's on stage. And I, so that's a great thing to say. Well, thank you. Yeah, yeah. It's really cool to, you know, you know, we'll go to our last segment off of that. Well, I mean, at that time, I mean, we would just be,

everything would always just be like, oh my God, I can't believe we're doing this. And yeah, and I would put on butterfly wings. We had giant inflatable things on stage and all that. And I mean, really at some point, you're kind of like, this is really getting out of control. And that made it fun. I mean, I think it was just another way of saying that been said, I mean, we really, really do. The music is the main thing.

I mean, we rehearse, rehearse, and we spend so much time doing the music that I think we're all very relieved that we can go up there and just be ridiculous, you know, because we know the music is, the music is really the force. and all this stuff that we get to do while we're standing up there, you know, makes it all, yeah, it's surreal, yeah. All right, so we're going to go to our last segment. Five for Five, and name five things. Tell me that comes up your head.

But first one, love your brain. Well, love your brain, you know, I mean, it's flaming up song that the more that I run into musicians, you know, the more musicians know that song from our, you know, we made this song in this period that you talked about,

1985, 1986, where underground music was loud, crazy, you know, freaky guitars, and it was absolutely underground. And this song, I remember even talking to people then, like, you guys have a song that's piano, and it's like a ballad, and it's a sad song. And, again, I don't think we were thinking about it

like that at the time. But I'm so glad that we made it as a song. And now Love Your Brain is also the name of the THC cannabis gummy company that we are part of that's kind of started. I guess, you know, Oklahoma now is at the forefront of kind of medicinal marijuana and, you know, all this sort of stuff. So I think we're at a good spot to be the ambassadors

of this new way of looking at marijuana and THC. I mean, I look at the way I do it as a way that most artists, like. I mean, I'm not using THC to get stoned. I'm not doing it to sort of get out of my head. I use this little bits of our version of the THC. It's not, it's not just the, it's not just THC. The gummies that we make, we do

a small portion of it. And I think we're seeing the results is that people it's people like you and I that we want to dedicate and defend this time that we have to be creative. But it's difficult because you have so many responsibilities and the world is such a busy, busy place. It's hard for everything to get out of your mind

and then say, I'm really just going to concentrate on this stuff. And so we are, with our THC products, we just say, take a little bit and see if this helps you stay focused and stay happy and stay satisfied with being creative, not satisfied that it's going to make a bunch of money or it's going to be famous or any of that sort of stuff. It's just your internal thing.

And I think that's the new world that we see for marijuana products. Not let's all get, let's all mess up our brains. That's why we use this term love your brain. The more you take care of your brain, the more being creative and all that is a joy. It's not a stressful, I've got to go to the mountain and write a song. You know, it's like, I get to write a song. If the world loves it, great. If no one else saleses it.

you know, if no one else ever hears it or whatever, it's still great. You know, it's the joy of being creative, just for yourself. I don't know if that's what you meant, but that's what I answered. That's exactly right. I'll send you my test after this,

and I'll definitely try it. Michael, you're the, one of the... Yeah, Michael Evans, yeah, yeah. Ivins. I think part of the Flaming Lips is this, that we are dudes in a gang. I think that's part of all, you know, when bands form, when guys are in their late teens or early 20s,

and, you know, I come from a big family. I'd four brothers and a sister, and they all had friends that took drugs and rode motorcycles, all just crazy stuff. So I think the idea that I would be in a group of dudes and we would travel the world and have adventures and play music at the same time, you know. So I think that's,

the part that, you know, Michael and I are so deeply, you know, embedded in each other's lives is that we started out is just needing a friend to go with us into battle, you know, and that is kind of what you have to do, you know, and it would be difficult to do on your own. And I think us doing it as a group always shielded us that we could just be doing it for each other. And I think that'll probably always be with us, you know, and I don't think we would have ever look at each other and said, we're still going to be doing this when we're 60 years old. You know, it would have killed us. We said, no way, that's too important. I'm sure by then we'll have some real jobs or whatever, you know. So the fact that we've known each other now for almost 40 years, I mean, you know, it's just absurd. But now it kind of seems like we'll probably know each other, you know, until we die. Yeah.

Mark, your brother. I think he was part of this gang in the very beginning, but I don't really think he liked music and he was not an extrovert either. He was an very intense introvert and he didn't respond well to too much alcohol and too much stress and too much drugs. I mean, I'm probably the luckiest one of all of my brothers that I'm the least, you know, affected by drugs and alcohol and all that. I think him being in the group accelerate him being an alcoholic and being a drug addict, just being a violent, crazy person. And so I don't think, it was going to he didn't he didn't like it and it didn't work that well for him even though i think in

the very beginning it was it was a different adventure him being there it was i mean i everybody that's in the flaming lips in a way is is like family to me so i think it started as actual family and now it's family because we say well everybody that we work with we love them and that's family but um and i think he's very glad that i didn't keep dragging him along and saying it's it's about the music and he would be Like, I have no idea how to do music. I'll just do what you do. I'll help you, but I don't know how to help you. So I think it was good for all of us to not keep stressing him out so much about being a singer and all that.

Yeah, I think what you said about him and what you even love your brain and the idea that the bands that, a lot of bands that broke around when you broke, the front men are no longer with us because. of drug use because Oh yeah, yeah. Because there's, I mean, I'm sure that collectively we could name 10 different frontmen that you know, that didn't make it out of this. And, you know,

it's hard to explain to people that how complicated it is for a bunch of introverts to be on stage and then yeah, but... I mean, I feel like, I mean, those

that's just even part of normal everyday society now I mean everybody knows someone who's got a drug problem and most people over 30 years old probably know someone who's died of drugs or overdosed or you know I mean it's it's more and more common all the time you know and yeah

you know it's just a horrible byproduct of all the stuff that you get to do and there's a lot of good celebrating that goes on you know but there's a lot of you know, it starts out as a celebration and then it ends up being something that you can't get out of. And, you know, that's, that's, it is. It's a struggle.

And I'm very lucky that I don't, you know, I was never that, that, that, you know, I didn't have that much of a physical need for it. I mean, and luckily I didn't start to do any real drugs until I was older anyway, you know. So, I know, I don't know. And you don't know what your makeup is. You don't know. And drugs are so powerful. And we're glad. I mean, most of the good drugs are, you know, pain-killing, you know, drugs.

And if you have a lot of horrible pain, we should be glad that they're made and they're made so well. But they're potent. And it's hard. Yeah. questions. All right. Last two. Bloom. Oh, our little baby boy. Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't think, you know, anybody who's not a father, not a parent, you know, there's just, there's nothing you can relate to until you have your own little entity there that is such a marker and such a beaming proof of what's

important in life and what what makes you happy and and I tell people this you know is when I when I get the chance you know I did have a dream where our little boy was you know he was sick and he was wasn't going to get better it's just a dream you know and in the dream I remember in my mind thinking you know we talk about God we talk about the universe whatever it is I remember talking to the universe you know in my dream of like if my little boy could be all right. I would never think anything in the world was bad again. That's all that would matter, that if I were a little boy was going to be all right.

And then I woke up and it was just a dream. But I did think like that afterwards and I still think like that now. And it gives you this great balance of what's important and what makes you happy and what is worth working for and what is worth working for. and what is worth fighting for. And it's like the most, you get to do the most important job in the world. You get to do it, you know.

So for me, it's like I could have never known all that. And, you know, once you have these little babies that, you know, you get to shape them, you get to nurse them, you know. And I think I probably was always a, you know, a nurturer anyway. You know, I come from a big family, so there's probably some deep thing in me that I'm not even aware of. You know, I always say we don't control the controls, you know. We think we do, but we don't really, you know. So part of me has probably always been a nurturing, you know, entity.

And once this little baby comes along, you're like, oh, good. Now I know exactly what to do, you know. So, yeah, I mean, that's going to be the great thing that happens to me from now on is I, I get to walk around and saying, I'm Bloom's dad. That's what you'll say to me five years from now when we do an interview. It's like, what's it like being Bloom's dad? That'll be my great achievement. Finally, Katie.

Well, I mean, again, I think having all these experiences, me being older and still being healthy and still being, you know, hopefully aware and learning from the world, to run into someone like Katie who, you know, saw me as special and cool and thought, I could help you with your life. Let's, let's, you know, the more that we would be attracted to each other, the more we'd see like, man, you're helping me with my life. You're not, you know, you're not thinking I should do this or that.

It's like, whatever's happening to you, I can help you. And that's hard to recognize, you know, when people are, you know, you're in a relationship with someone and you don't always know what their agenda is. How's this going to work? You peer too far into the future. And I'm lucky that I didn't really even know her until I was 51 years old, you know. And had a lot of experiences, had a lot of things that I thought the way the world was and all that. And then she's so kind and so smart and so, you know, so wonderful.

And to be able to know that and to be able to. And I think that's, again, that's part of my makeup that I wouldn't know is true until it happens to you. You're like, oh, yeah, I want to be with someone like you. I didn't know that until you were here. And now I know I want to be with someone like you. So, yeah, it's a, I say it all the time. It's like I really do have the greatest life that there could ever be lived. And I get to be in the flaming lips too.

Well, thank you for doing this podcast. I know you're a busy man creating all the things you do. And I said it a lot in the interview, but it's cool because I always say there's a big difference between good music and good song. And there are some people who find their way of navigating both. And that's when you find artists that you really like. and as a creative, you know, when I would write for other people, the focus for me is purely on song, and music is something that's a separate concept to me.

And when I write for myself, I listen to those kinds of artists that took risks and were seemingly unafraid in whatever capacity that they, they created music, whether they were primarily avant-garde lyricists or musicians or whatever it is. And I just, you know, you've led a career with such positivity putting out music that I know that some of it's intentional, but you couldn't, the world happens to it. And I'm part of the world. Well, yeah, yeah. You know, it was nice to see that, you know,

these, some of these albums happened to, you know, showed up in our lives, and it's weird to think that they didn't exist before because I didn't, you know, I just think of them as part of the, you know. Oh, well, thank you. Yeah. But, you know, I totally understand where you're coming from.

I mean, the idea of the song versus the, the sound, you know, versus the music. I mean, those are all things that everybody struggles with. You know, it's like you're creating and you're listening and you're, you're adapting and you're letting the music inspire you. You're letting the music take you somewhere. You're letting your, it's all evocative and yet, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a difficult thing to even know when it, when it's happening, you know.

But you do have to know how to write songs. I mean, there is something about that, you know, and it's, it is, it's, it's, it's, it's, You don't rare, it's rare that you just stumble upon a great song. Usually something great happens and you have to get to work. You know, and that work part of it is always a little undervalued. Like, well, yeah, everybody did that. But every great song has that. I mean, when, you know, you hear Paul McCartney, you talk about yesterday, you know,

which seems like such a seamless, perfect one thought, you know, and of course he's Paul McCartney, it seems like, of course he would have thought of that. And even for that to have been, And, you know, he's working on it in his mind over a couple of years. You know, it's one little line here and there. I can't tell you how many times I would need one line and it would all come together. And until you get that one line, you just don't have it. And you don't even know you're going to get the line.

And then it happened. You know, it's like, oh, my gosh, I got it. And I do, I talk a lot about the gods of music. They are always watching us and they're always judging us, you know. And that's why I say to any artists, especially a songwriter, it's like, you have to do this with love because they're watching. And they're not just going to give some horrible person the greatest song in the world, you know.

And I'm always, you know, looking up and they're saying, if you give me a song, I will dedicate my whole existence to making that song work for the world. I will work for that song. And they know that. They're like, we know way. well we'll be watching you know and and if they give me one i that's my that's my promises i don't the song is never me you know i am i am the custodian and the helper and the and the the parents and the and everything it takes for that song to reach that audience and that's me not you know i'm

i'm not the song it's the song and then i'm the helper that's the way i i view it and so yeah you're always you're always wanting that little You know, nobody knows what it is. They have to give it to you and say, okay, here's do you realize. Don't fuck it up. And I'm like, okay, you know. Shout out to the music gods. That's how we'll close this out.

Dedicated to them. So thanks. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, well, thanks. You were great. It was so much fun talking to you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Anne the Writer is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist. or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.