And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 144: Tommy Brown

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

Today’s guest is an American record producer, songwriter and rapper. He currently lives in LA and was born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Our guest has been Grammy-nominated as well as receiving multiple awards from ASCAP. He has scored multiple chart-topping albums while working with Ariana Grande on all six of her studio albums as well as executive producing Grande’s 2020 album Positions. In addition to Grande, his most recent work includes Justin Bieber’s single “Holy”, Blackpink’s “Ice Cream feat. Selena Gomez” and “Bet You Wanna (feat. Cardi B)”. Brown has also collected production credits for three songs on Grammy-award-winning artist Meghan Trainor's second album, Thank You. Our guest learned from production greats Roy "Royalty" Hamilton and Rodney Jerkins, while working alongside them and eventually creating a team of his own. And The Writer Is… Tommy Brown! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and Mega House Music Management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. Welcome to Am the Update is.

I am your host, Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update. The BIMM Institute has launched an educational partnership with Spotify, which aims to accelerate diversity in music education, and the creative industries. The BIMM Institute and Spotify educational partnership will offer a group-wide package across all eight colleges, including fully funded degree scholarships, masterclass events,

mentoring opportunities with Spotify executives and educational resources created by Spotify, shared directly with students as a part of their studies. BMG has acquired what it calls an extensive portfolio of rights related to the music and image of Tina Turner. The deal sees BMG occasionally. the artist's share of her recordings plus her music publishing writer's share and neighboring rights plus her name, image, and likeness. Five Seconds of Summer has inked a global record deal with BMG.

Riverhouse artists and Sony Music Publishing have partnered to sign Nashville favorite Neil Medley to a worldwide co-publishing agreement. Cobalt music has named Jeanette Perez as president and C-O. Dolly Parton and her Smoky Mountain businesses have raised $700,000 to help residents impacted by the flooding in Middle Tennessee. Warner Music Finland has promoted Ramona Forrestrum to GM. Buck's music group has signed House DJ Lenny Fontana to a worldwide exclusive songwriting deal. Live Nation stock has hit $100, which is their new high. Chris Brown and Drake have been sued for copyright. infringement over their track, no guidance.

The 2021 CMA Awards will require attendees to be vaccinated. Spice Girls will be partnering with Universal's bravado for merch and licensing. Pandora is shutting down next big sound. Starting November 4th, Los Angeles will be requiring vaccination proof for indoor concerts. Mike Sherwood has joined Capital Music Group as EVP of Global Marketing and Strategy. Neil Dominique's label, Just a Regular Label, has signed a partnership deal with Interscope Records. Sony Music Publishing has promoted Michael a bit bold to Senior Vice President Head of U.S. Digital. The blockchain platform Opulus has opened up fan investments in artists.

The platform was founded by distribution and record label services company, Ditto Music, as a decentralized finance solution for artists and the music industry, as well as providing access to funding based on future royalty earnings, it is providing a launch pad for music NFTs. Dice has acquired the electronic music live streaming platform Boiler Room. Billy Elish will soon become Glastonbury's youngest solo headliner ever. Sink Vault launches to incentivize influencers and boost artists on YouTube and YouTube shorts. Jamie Abzug has been appointed by RCA Records as its new Senior Vice President

and head of publicity. TikTok has revealed six certified sound partners, which the platform says will make it even easier for brands of all sizes to tap into music and sounds on TikTok. Coldplay have extended their long-term relationship with Parlophone and Atlantic Records. A big thank you to Haley Evans of Megahouse for gathering today's news.

Now stay tuned for this week's episode of End The Writer is. Welcome to End The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's super producer methodically infiltrated the highest ranks of the pop industry by creating the bulk of some of the biggest albums of the decade before becoming The Guy, who is not only the majority of some of these albums, but all of the singles as well.

Although diverse in his catalog, this Grammy-nominated writer is most noted for being the sound of Ariana Grande, having participated in all of her six albums, and dominating her latest smashes. All the way from Western Pennsylvania, our guests went from working at Sears and handing out CDs in Pittsburgh to crafting hits for Ari, Justin Bieber,

Black Pink featuring Selena Gomez, Victoria Monet, and many, many more. And the writer is, my friend, Tommy TB hits, Brown. What's up, man? How you doing? So I texted you like a week ago, so this will give us a time when we actually recorded this because you had the number one and number two song at the same time. What?

It's crazy. It's crazy. It's insane. Why are you nice? I thought business people who do that kind of work are a bunch of assholes. Everyone in the music industry thinks of people who are successful as being dicks. Why are you like notoriously a nice guy? I think it's because like

I'm not really industry. I'm not really, I don't consider myself part of the industry. I feel like I craft songs and work with a lot of people and have a lot of friends but this was like a hobby for me. So I can't, I don't, I don't

want to say I don't take it too serious, but people take it overly serious. That's, to call it a hobby and to know your work ethic sounds nuts. But I guess like if you enjoy what you're doing, then, you know. Yeah, it's like every day's a new puzzle piece, and I've learned to have patience. Patience is key.

Like, I worked with Ari since, like, even before the first album and no singles, no singles. And then in due time, everything that's supposed to happen does. So. Well, I think when, you know, we'll get to your story, but things are supposed to happen, you know, in certain ways, sure. but it's just nuts to be at a place where you're at right now where I sent you that text. I was like, no, I don't think that that happens to any writer. Like, I don't think people have number one and number two songs. You know, that feels like, you know, once, twice, and a decade kind of situation.

You know, that shit just doesn't happen very often. And it's just so impressive, man, because people around you, really like you. And like, you know, we've hung out a couple times on Zoom, but it's just, it's amazing that you manage to maintain your personal integrity through the whole process. Man, I think that's so important because if you're driven by the success on your character, I don't think you're doing it right. I think you should be who you are all the time, regardless of the success or money or lack they're up. All right, well, let's go to the beginning of your story

so people can get to know you a little bit. You're from Pittsburgh. Yep, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, born and raised, so about 19. Were your parents, musicians at all? No, I don't have any musicians in my family, but my dad, rest in peace, when I was with him, he was always wanted to be like a music manager.

So he would like find people and he would work with some of the local talent. And he would like play me the songs and be like, what song do you think is the best song when I was like a kid? I was like I like this song. I don't know whatever came of it or any of that. But that's what my musical background is. What kind of music was played in your house? A lot of earth went in fire, a lot of Anita Baker.

A lot of those kind of things. Like old school music, if I was going to call it old school. When was the first time you started playing music? I remember the first single I got was a song called Less Ride by Montel Jordan featuring Master P. I remember that's the first single disc that I had. and the first album that I had was Destiny Child, the writings on the wall. I mean, that's kind of nuts because, I mean, not to fast forward,

but you end up working with Rodney Jerkins, right? Yeah, had no clue who he was when I did a deal with him. When you're in Pittsburgh and you said you were there to you were 19, were you doing were you playing were you actually like writing it all in high school

or anything like that? I did so what happened was when I was I want to say 15 or 16 I had a cousin who played drums

who was in like the band and I would watch them play drums and I would just infatuated with it I was like, drums are so sick. And my dad, like, bought me a drum set. And I was horrible.

Horrible, horrible. It was the worst. And I only had one beat. What was it? I don't know. It was just so bad. It was any song was the same beat. And I didn't take time to really develop the craft.

And then when my dad passed away around when I was 16, for me to escape all the trauma and everything that was, I just kind of started making beats. Wow. Down to the fruity loops and I wanted to be Kanye. I was like, I want to be like Kanye. What happened to your father? He was a diabetic and he was like,

I don't know the proper term for it, but he was like going through it, he was like getting better, getting sicker, getting better, getting sicker, and then he, like, died of affixiation. Yeah, so it was, you know what I mean? I had to very early become, being the oldest child had to become the man in the family. So. Diving into music after that, and you said, like, you wanted to become Kanye,

Were you immediately knowing your dad was wanting to be a manager and working a little bit in that? Did that create a certain kind of focus? Did that make you want to actually make it a career? Or were you, what happens to somebody who's in that place? I just wanted to create and create. Every day I just spent time making beats, five beats a day, six, seven beats a day. Then I was writing every day just writing. I wanted to be a rapper.

And I was like rapping every day. I did put an album out in high school that so many people liked. And I just, it was just a surprise to me. I was like high in high school. Like I smoked weed. And I was like sleep on a desk. And I heard my beat on the morning announcements. I was like, that's my beat.

And they took and chopped the intro to one of my songs off the album. used it for the school morning announcements. No way. Yeah, it was like, I was like, I'm lit. Did everybody know that that was your beat? Was it like everyone looking at you at the minute that that is being played on the

end? I feel like this is like all of a sudden we're in some sort of Netflix like rom-com or something. And you're just like sitting there and hearing your beat and everybody's like, Tommy, it's your record. I was like, I thought I was famous. I thought I was as big as it can get. I was like, I am on the morning announcements.

I'm the music from the soundtrack to the high school. It's weird because people think that you have, you're as excited talking about that as when we talk about you having a number one and number two record. Like you might even be more excited right now reminiscing about that. And you try to explain to people that you get to these landmarks as a professional, and it means a lot, and it's really very cool,

but those moments are priceless. No, 100%. I was just like, wow. Just insane. Did you work with other rappers in school or other artists in school? Well, you know what? I was doing my thing,

and I had some friends I was, like, working with, and this friend of mine came to me. It was like, yeah, we should just make a group. Let's make a group called first string, because they were athletes. Let's make a group called first string. And I was like, okay. And we recorded it in my mom's basement. And that's where that album came from.

That's so rad. So then did you guys tour? Did you perform it around, you know, what happens with a record like that? No, it was just we put it out in school. It was just what it is everybody listened to it. It was good. I liked it. I thought it was sick.

And then it was just, from there, it was just working on music. They built a step team and the high school. And I was like doing beats for them like, yo, y'all should step to this and y'all should use these rhythms when you're doing steps. Because I didn't have a musical background. So I just liked the drums. So I would like, fun story, I would beat on the desk at the lunch table and people were rap. Then there was these two dudes that they were like brothers.

And then they would start doing it. And they would do like Neptune's beats. Like, and it was just crazy. And they told me if anybody, it got so big that they said, like, if anybody makes beats during lunch, you get suspended for 10 days. And so it was like. Dude, I genuinely feel like you're telling like a plot of a story. It's like the guy who ends up hearing his music on the loudspeaker during morning announcements.

he's getting in trouble and suspended in school for doing beats in the lunchroom. It was crazy. It was insane. So when you graduated, what are the next steps? What are the next steps? What happened after that? I graduated.

I signed up for this record label, like a local record company. And I literally just wanted to be heard. We did some shows with Little Wayne, and we ended up, we had an athlete that backed us, and they booked out the Mellon Arena. And when they booked out the Mellon Arena, we did a show and opened up. They, like, threw a show with, like, Juel Santana and Chenge and, forget it was the other artist there, and we, like, opened up.

And it was like, and I was still in high school. It was still in high school at this time. And it was just like, yo, I felt famous. I was like, yo, this is crazy. But Chingi at that time is so massive. Massive. Massive. And they have Lil Wayne at that time so massive.

I mean, that is kind of, I mean, if you worked with a young artist who right now was, you know, they'd be like with whatever, I don't know, maybe a post-Malone and a, you know, like that kind of level of fame. They were that big. And it's like, that's huge. That kind of is famous, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, it was just, and it was insane. So, I mean, I just wanted to, I think at that moment, when all that stuff happened,

it just made it very real to me. And it was like, I'm sorry. But it just made it very, very real to me to see that it's a possibility to do that stuff. Did somebody, was somebody helping you with any of the business stuff? If you're getting signed to local record companies and doing all that, was it? Just sign it. You're in the studio for free.

Just sign the contract. That was my thought. I was like, yo, we're in here. We're signed. Because it's always like, let's get signed. Let's get signed. But you don't even know what I was signing. It was just the pure excitement.

What you signed, was it, um, Was it okay or did it lock you into some things? I mean, I think at the end of it all, it was just they really didn't care. We were there and it wasn't really working out. So, I mean, I'm still cool with all those people till today. But it was just like, we brought it. Do those guys all, I mean, they're all watching your career, I'm sure. Yeah, and it's insane because like they'll,

call me and have their kid be like, yo, I'll talk to their son and be like, you let them know it's possible and all this. And it's just wild to me. It's just really, really like wild that it's like a real deal thing. Yeah, we always talk about that where it's showing that it's attainable is so important for people to pursue it. And, you know, that's why it's kind of fun to go through where people come from on this podcast because.

No, but, you know, very few of the people that we've talked to really were, you know, born and raised into it. Most, and some of them were, and they earned their way in, but it's like you can, the fact that you can make it out of Pittsburgh, it's kind of nuts. There's a bunch of, but there are a bunch of artists that have come out of Pittsburgh. I feel like there's somehow a music scene out of there. Yeah, Wiz, I remember seeing Wiz early on, Mac early on, and it was so crazy as I grew older. and realized so there's this guy named Mailman, right? And he was signed to Dr. Dre. He did like the whole chronic album.

He did a lot of Eminem. He did a lot of, a lot of the stream of hits that Dr. Dre had at this time was done by a guy named Mailman and he worked with Scott Storch and a few other producers. And come to find, out he's from Pittsburgh and got his start from my dad.

My dad signed him, gave him the money to buy like a beat machine, and started his career. So when I go and I go and I meet him out L.A. years later, he's like, you know, I'm so thankful for your dad. He changed my life. Oh, man. And it's something I never knew about. Dude, how'd that make you feel?

it was just crazy. It was just like, I was like, this is in a weird way it's meant. And an aware way, it's just like plot twists. Because you can help people throughout life, which I'm very, very big on help. I love to keep my side of the street clean. I want to help anybody I can. And so to see that through him with somebody else, because he's like your dad never asked me for anything. You never ask for anything back, never asked anything. I mean, when I asked you your first

question of why, why are you nice in the position you're in? It's because your dad was like that. Yeah, probably. And then my mom was so, my mom so treat everybody like family. And I get that from her and see it now. And it's just rubbed off on me. And I'm just happy that I can be the facilitator for so many people and help so many careers. Yeah, well, in that note, then we're going to say in this next segment of what would Nisha ask Tommy Brown on it and the writer is, she asked you, what's the secret to having longevity? Would you say that's it? Yeah, I think the secret to having longevity is make as many people successful as you can.

Because through helping other people achieve their success, it kind of carries you a long way. Like, it's not about the success for me. It's about me being able to see a guy call me and like, yo, I got my mom a house. Yeah, I got this and got that. And it was like, I remember being told before. I was too fair on some of the deals I do in the way that I, like, share the money. And I was just like, well, if that's what it is, if I'm too fair, I'd rather be known as too fair than like on the other side.

Wow. I mean, that's the, that's like the quote that I wish everyone would recognize. Like, you don't have to take from your peers. Yeah. The people you work with for your whole career and so many people are willing to burn a bridge, burn a future with someone for 5% for 10% of a song that might or may or may not work and to be honest, if it really works,

the 5% wasn't worth it. And if it doesn't work, the 5% wasn't worth it. And that's a conversation that I find myself having more often than I thought I would ever have. Like I would go back and have a conversation with people on splits. I'm like, no, I want seven. I'm like, you are willing to go and do stir up this whole big pot for 2%. I promise you in the long term of your career,

if you're really as good as you think you are or know you are, it's not going to make a difference. It's just not. We'll jump into this next segment, which is what would Victoria Monet ask Tommy Brown and the writer is? She has a few questions for you. Okay. She says, I'm just talking about some people that obviously, like, you have this incredible, you know, you work with so many people and these are some of the great writers that you've worked with who've recently.

So I'm just going to let them have their voice in this part before we go back to the rest of your story. She actually had a few questions for you. One, she goes, are you making sure you're taking care of yourself the way you take care of others? You know what? For so long, I didn't. For so long. And I feel like in my, in my, like, own way, I'm here for a reason. And if my reason is to be the bridge to help as many people cross the bridge as I can,

then I want to also be the person that holds the bridge up. But at the same time, it was a lot of times I was drinking a lot and up late nights and different things. So I took some time to kind of, I stopped drinking first. now it's been 16, 17 months. I don't know. I haven't drank and I've worked out. I've lost a bunch of weight. And I also encouraged. And I learned in that time about what it's truly like to be a leader. Because when I got sober and kind of fixed my life a bit to people around me did as well. So it wasn't a thing where I tell people when they tell me it's just like leading by example. And I learned very quickly what that meant. So I had.

have been taking the time to also take care of myself because I can't help anybody if I can't help myself. Love that. She also asked if she can borrow your Lambo and some pub and some pub. I mean, you know, I'm always open to any of that. They can take it. The material things are just with, it's just material. Like, I always make a joke with my friends. I'm like, I'm, like, I'm feel okay when sleeping on the couch. I get my most cozy sleep there. Yeah, I love that. Okay, wait, I don't understand what this question is,

so maybe you can explain, and then we can go back. She said, what's one thing that makes cracking different from TB hits? Wow. So, okay, she went there. So crack came when I was in Atlanta, I was like, I took the Ten Crack Commandments by Biggie Smalls. and the end he says crack king

and I remember listening to this record in Pittsburgh one day and I heard it I said I'm gonna take that and put it on all my beats so nobody can steal my beats so I would put it through with tag the beats on out

pass out beat CDs nobody would take the beats so with that I kind of when I passed them out people was like oh crack king crack king

and I'm like my name's not crack king and I kind of developed that as a producer name early on in my career. So when I was in Atlanta working for the few years, they called me Crack King, and then I started using that as a tag. And so if you hear Crack King from back in the day on these rap songs, that was me.

And when I was working with Rodney, we were doing some stuff with Wild Clef, and it was a song called War is Not the Answer. And I put the Crack King tag on there, And we were doing the credits for the album. And he was just like, yo, you can't do that. Like, it's a certain level of artistry kind of to have crack king on your beats. And, you know, I was like, you know what?

And I got rid of the tag. And like, what would it sound like if on all of those songs and said, Crack King, it's just a different, different legacy, I think. Are you happy you made that choice? I am. I am. Because you know what? I think my work and what I do speaks louder than a tag does for myself personally. You started working with Rodney before you started having records out. How did Rodney end up hearing, you know, from, you graduate high school and you're in Pittsburgh and then there's, you know, a couple year gap there between that and Rodney and coming out to. L.A. or maybe not coming out to L.A., but how do you get heard by someone at that level? Well, when I was in Atlanta, I had different records out with like two chains before he was

like two chains. They was in Player's Circle. Then I worked with a lot of different artists. I remember I worked with Rick Ross. I worked with Young Jock a lot. I worked with Gorilla Zoh. And I worked with a lot of local artists. So I had a lot of music. growing around Atlanta. And when I did a couple songs on Play in Circle there, like, we're going to do a 10 song deal with you at Def Jam. I'm like, what? I'm the man.

And long story short, I flew down two writers, Tommy Parker and a guy named Larry Love to come work with me, and one of them knew Rodney's cousin. And so we did like five songs. They sent them. And then they're like, you know, Rodney wants to sign you. Rodney wants to sign you. And I was like, who is Ronny's?

Johnny Jirgens. Like, who is dark? You're trying to explain like, Brandy, Brandy, Brandy. And I'm like, I never listen to Brandy. Like, I don't know. I mean, I know who Brandy is, but I didn't listen to the music. So my friend was such a big fan. He said, man, I really want to sign the Rodney. Tommy Parker, I really want to sign the Rodney.

And I said, if you want to do it, I'll do it with you. And we signed to him when I remember coming out to L.A. getting to the studio and I'm seeing all these plaques and all this stuff. And I was like, oh, this is like a real deal thing. It's a lot of plaques. I feel like, and we've talked to Rodney, but that's right around when I started working with Rodney too. So I feel like we must have been in the, you know, one room apart, if not in probably in the

same room at some point in that general era. Like, just going over there all the time. like you just live in that studio and he's got a couple rooms going. I didn't even have a room. I was in the lobby for most of the time. I didn't even have a room. Yeah, exactly.

It's crazy. Your first cut that is like significant is just massive. Really, like the Black I.P.'s record, the beginning, it's right when they're at their peak, just can't get enough.

it's it's a you go from like having being in the studio with some of these guys to kind of like a like the biggest pop situation you could possibly be in you know um crazy having that experience of and also working with you know you're working with will i am and that you're working with burgy it's it's really just the top of the top at that time did you start feeling, like, how did that affect you psychologically, having gone through the ranks? And then your first cut being someone at that level? Well, I didn't meet them when we did the song. I was working with Rodney.

It was me and a guy named Ball. We started this beat to the tempo. Rodney played the chords and the girl wrote the song. We were like, let's lock in and do 10 songs the exact same way. Piano, drums, vocal, and that's it. So he do these 10 songs. And one of them we were always saying, this is sticky, this is sticky, this is sticky. And it ends up, Will I am takes the files, takes the chorus, takes the balance, and goes and makes this masterpiece.

And it comes out and I go on iTunes when they had the snippets. I'm like, Ronnie, it sounds like our song. He was like, it does. Let me reach out. Come to find out we had the single. And the song explodes. And I'm watching it. I'm like, the song's gold.

The song's gold. Should we get the plaque? He's like, just wait for it to go platinum. Yeah. Wait, wait. I was like, yo, I'm about to get my first plaque. And it's just the excitement of it. And I don't remember what songs.

I feel like it was either Dale or Katie Perry or both. I don't know. And it stopped it from going number one. It was number three. And I was like, man, I want a number one zone. And so it was just like it kind of fueled me to want to get to the number one spot. If anything else, I just wanted that number one. The song goes platinum, I'm sure.

And you finally get that plaque, but where are your plaques? I look in your background. I don't see them. Do you have them up? Or now that you have all the plaques, do you kind of not, are you the kind of guy who puts their plaques up? or you the kind of guy who doesn't? I do. I used to.

So I recently got a personal house because I still, through everything, lived in a studio house with four rooms going for so long. And I talked to a life coach one time. And she said, while you're very successful to, like,

live in that environment, have you ever tried, like, living by yourself? If you do, you'll elevate. And I was like, what? And I, I started looking for a house. So all my plaques are hanging there. I have some plaques downstairs, but they're like laying on the floor.

I haven't did like my new plaque order. But, I mean, those are my... I believe in having him... I'm sorry, interrupted. But like, I like that I have, like... I like having that up. I know there's some people who don't want to have a plaques or they have a feeling. It seems like it's polarizing.

But I feel like younger me would have been so mad at older me. for not putting it up. Like, that's what you aim for. And like you were saying, your first song, you're like, should I get it? It's gold. It's like, just wait. Should I get it?

It's platinum. It's like maybe even then still wait. Dude, that song's going to be double, like, it's going to be triple platinum or it's going to be like. Okay, okay. So I had my plaques up. So I don't want to act like I don't have my plaques. My plaques are up.

They're at the studio house. But I don't want just to sound crazy. I kind of ran out of wall space. Yeah. So, like, I can order these other plaques, but it's like, where are they going to go? So now I have them, like, downstairs and I'm starting to hang them up. But I don't want to be weird because I'm like, a lot of my blacks are Ariana plaques. And she's a really good 10-year friend of mine.

And I don't want to seem like I have like an Ariana shrine in my house and she comes to my house. It's like, oh, wow, this is my corner here. like there's a lot of other plaques but I mean we have so much success together I don't want it to be like I feel weird about it it's so funny it is weird because all the plaques people don't realize it but a lot of the plaques are custom you know so they have they'll have like uh they'll have pictures of the artist so it's not just it's not like the old school times where there's just uh the the record and then it says underneath it like Tommy Brown produced whatever it's like now they have it's like a picture of the artists. And they're really, and they're, you know, so there's no question that, you know,

it's weird when I look, you know, when you look to a wall and you see a bunch of young pop stars staring back at you a little bit. Like, it's like I like look at the plaques, but the plaques are often like kind of post, like being a grown-ass man with a bunch of posters of pop stars. Like, wow. It's like, how old are you? Yeah. But it's so rad. Okay. So. You know, after... But she did give me something cool. What?

So I ordered all of her vinals. Uh-huh. And I came in a row, I didn't want to ask her, because I don't ask people for stuff. So I, like, came in a room and I'm like, you do me a favor. And she's like, yeah, what, what do you want? I'm like, can you sign all of these vinals for me? And she was like, who are they for? I'm like, me.

She's like, I don't think they're for you. And I'm like, I promised it for me. And she signed all of her. albums and there was a Christmas project that we did like a side project and she signed them all and left a note on each one and I framed

them all so now I have to add the new album but I framed them all so I have all of her projects that's sweet that's very sweet after Black IPs you know you had some you had some songs come out but that

you came out swinging so hard how did you deal with the fact that It kind of, even though you were part of some big albums, TI is obviously massive, and Meek Mills huge, and you know, you're part of a lot of big projects, but it wasn't until, it was a couple years until you get in with Ari, and even then she wasn't the Ari that we know, you know, was it hard to go be at the top

and then have to kind of like work your way, you know, to try to get, you know, ring that bell again. No, no, no, no. I love it because it gives a challenge, it gives a sense of drive. And I talk to my guys and they want so much. And I'm like, have a career. Take steps. Have moments in your career.

And somebody, like, when I was going through some things, like, I spoke to David Foster. Like, I became friends with David Foster. And I asked him and he said, man, you're one of the only people I can see having my career. Right. And I was like, blown away. And I was like, what do you need? He was like, yo, you really? You're really musical.

you know how to put the right people around. And he said, just make sure you have your career in parts. Like I had my Shaka Khan part. I had my Earthwind and Fire part. He says, just break them up into parts as you go. And you'll last for a very long time. Legendary advice. You start working with Victoria Monet in 2012.

So it's not just, you know, it's not just Ari. you really surround yourself with a lot of the same players, you know, the whole time. What is it about Victoria that speaks to you as a collaborator? Well, she, how met Victoria, Ronnie built a girl group, and she was in a girl group. And I don't know if she wanted me to say that, what I said it. And she was in a girl group and she had wrote, I sent her a beat.

She has the right to a beat and I sent her a beat. And it was like a super sick song she wrote. And I was like, Rodney, Rodney, she writes, she writes. She's so dope. And she went and wrote three or four records for Rodney that all got placed immediately. And then me and her started working together so heavily and just kind of crafting her sound and working with so many artists like Ari and Travis and so many different people, Eric Bellinger, Danny Lay, like so many different people and it just kind of built to where it is today.

Yeah, I like that you guys have this. It's like such a cool writing team. I guess that brings up the next segment, which is what would Angie Pagano as Tommy Brown on And The Writer is? And she asked, what keeps artists coming back to you over and over? What do you think is that? Why these people stay with you for 10 years? Why? Well, I'm very honest.

Very honest. I'm very, I keep their privacy to them. And I give them a safe place to record and experiment and do what they want. And like, I don't know. I think it's a safe place. I'm real. I'm not like cloud chasing or any of that stuff. I just think it's a safe environment for them to come experiment.

I'll give them the advice when they need it and listen when they need to just talk. Ari is probably the biggest, you know, the biggest investment you made as a creative, not just like, yes, it turned out to be meaning a lot of things. But you started working with her at a time when I don't, it's hard. to explain people only see artists for who they are now and they have trouble

remembering what it was either back in their heyday or back before they were big, you know? Mm-hmm. And so it's hard to explain who Ari was back in the, you know, the first album better, you know, during those days.

She was just a, you know, she was just a kid who was out of a TV show. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I found somebody who can match my work ethic. And now I don't know anybody that works as hard as her. So when I work with new artists and I see they don't want to do this, they don't want to do that, I'm like, man, I got such a long way to go. This girl jumps up and does this and that. And then when I found her to kind of match the work ethic, it was she jumps off her arena stage, kicks off her boots.

and comes in the studio and records. I'm like, who sings for an hour and a half and comes to the studio and cuts? That's a different kind of human being. And in the beginning, she just trusted the first session. She was like, y'all like working with you. When we worked and worked and worked, and I remember I gave her a song called Honeymoon Avenue

and a song called Daydream, and I'm never going to forget. I was like, I was watching and I seen this girl come out with a song with Mac Miller. And it was number six and exploded. I was like, yo, that's Ariana. That's the girl. I was like working with her. And she reached out to me like, okay, now it's time to work.

And I've like worked to her on. Like there was just probably like a little gap where she was figuring out exactly what she needed to do. But then it was like, boom, inseparable sense. During all these albums, she ends up having different executive producers and different producers around her, who were also friends with. And there's a different process in selecting singles.

And there's a lot of politics that go around everything. How did you not get wrapped up in the politics of having the bulk of these albums and not necessarily having the bulk of the singles? Because I'm a firm, firm believer, and what's for you is for you. And it's Devon Tommy. So I feel like we can wake up every day

and have blank pages that we're trying to fill in. Or we can wake up every day and be thankful and show gratitude for what's there. Like I have the gratitude to even be able to work alongside these people, especially where I'm from. So if I don't have the single now, the single came right when I needed it. One of the cool things about being a writer in the circuit

is you and I have songs on, I don't know, probably four or five albums, the same albums where, you know, the same albums where, you know, it's almost like you want to knock on the door of the song. You're like, that's cool, man. I love that record, but, you know, I'm in that session in some other studio in some other city or maybe the same one,

I don't know, and you work with the same artist, but you don't actually get to, in a weird way, circuitously collaborate. In these circuits where you're sort of, you know, where they have these other teams of writers working on the same albums, why do you think that a lot of the,

you know, why isn't it that all the groups end up writing together. Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, and I don't want to say ego. Maybe it's ego. Maybe it's timing. Maybe it's scheduling. I don't know, but I think a more united music industry means better music. Yeah, man. I love that. I think also it goes back to the same thing that you were saying before, though. What Ari's done well is she's surrounded herself with people who genuinely seem to take care of each other in their own groups. There aren't a lot of groups of people around

Ari that are complaining because everyone seems, you know, your group of writers and the MXM group of writers and some of these people, like everyone likes each other and takes care of each other as a community. And I think that's why, you know, when you talk about being a leader and leading by example, I think that that's actually had more of a reach than you realize. when Thank You Next came out, that's when you really start getting nominated. What was it like to go? I guess that was the last Grammys that you could go to. But what was it?

We had the last Coachella, the last Grammy. Yeah. What was that like actually going to the Grammys? Who did you bring? I brought my mom. How did she love it? My aunt was there. It was a very, very beautiful.

I went and got like a $10,000 suit. I was just like, yo, it was just a moment. We went and we had the Rolls Roy's truck. You know what? And it was fun. And I just wanted to make it more of an experience for my mom and my aunt and my family because they've been big supporters from, they made me feel special. even when I probably didn't feel special myself.

So I was like, I want to go in and make this day for them. I want them to have a good time and sharing this. I want everybody to come and sharing this. And Ari is so kind to my family and so kind to my friend. She treats them the same. We had a show in Pittsburgh. I come up on a car in seven rings. And she brings my family back and treats them like,

for her own. Like, I just wanted to make, I want to make the experience great for my family. You really encouraged, and not to keep talking about Ari, but your relationship with her is interesting because you really encourage her to be a writer. What, she's incredible,

and I've always told her that pin game ponytail. She hates that. That's really funny. But nobody, you know, not everybody in the industry, gave her that kind of respect? I mean, I think, you know, sometimes, like, we all have the things that,

we all deal with things on our own way, right? So I may want to be, like, a rapper, right? I'm like, I'm going to put out this album, I'm great, but maybe on the inside, I'm not as confident as I am around my friends. And I'm not saying that's what it is for her, but I just know that she's great at what she does, and I want to encourage her to kind of do what she does. Like a lot of these songs are written by her.

And of course, there are co-stars in writing. And there's some songs that are very collaborative. But a lot of songs are like, she goes in there and says there does the melody, right? The lyrics. And there may be other people who come in and do other things. But I'm like, you did this. This is you.

That's what also makes her so good is that she's willing, to take outside songs, make them their own, make it her own, and she's also willing to write a song and make it her own. And a lot of artists that I know we've both worked with

claim that they're writers and do not write. And that's not the same thing as what she's doing. She doesn't claim that she's a writer when she doesn't write. And then when she does write, she's earned it.

And like what, you know, it shows. I mean, 97% of the time she's writing it. Like, she has a few collaborators that she writes really well with. Like, she writes really well with Nija, writes really well with Taylor, Victoria, MXM. Kim, I'm not in those sessions to know. But I know when she's around me, she's very collaborative.

When the splits come, she doesn't add the superstar tax to it. Like, superstars, like, no, I need 30% for breathing in here. She's very fair with what she does. She doesn't take more than she deserves. And I love that. And I think it sets a standard for what all writers and producers to stand for. Because a lot of artists come and take publishing and do different things and do

absolutely nothing. And I don't think that's right. And I think it's a new standard. After we do this interview, we'll have a conversation because I believe that there's something that's brewing that you'll want to be a part of. I think I probably be a part of it. Yeah. Okay, good. Maybe we delete that. Maybe we keep that in. Who knows.

Okay. Well, I might as well go to this next one. Holy comes out. Holy. Positions comes out. Are you starting to feel like it's easy? No, I just feel like we cracked whatever that cold was. We painted. was the right art to sell at the time. That was the right art. We had the right art gallery open. I feel like music is constantly changing and whenever you get comfortable is when you lose that

spot. Dude, that's the realist. That's why I mean, I'm live and die by your mistakes. Like, I like going, I like going in and trying to write songs that I know no one else is sending out. and let it be something that somebody's like, this is not, this is so weird or this is not good, because that same polarities when somebody's going to be like, yeah, I haven't heard a song like this and forever, that'd be so sick.

You know what it is? Like, I'd rather write those. You know, it's so crazy, a writer that I really, really respect told me that they wouldn't play the R&B chords on the radio. And I really, really respect this person. And I still have so much respect for them. But when that was told to me, I was like, now I have a point to prove.

And thank you next came out. And now R&B courts are dominating the radio. And I feel like a lot of people tap into what we do. and I think it's what you're supposed to do with art. This is the color wave. Like if somebody else

didn't come out with the color wave, then they're doing their self a disservice. Well, that's really interesting because I feel like that's a little bit of what people saying

that the R&B that R&B courts don't work on pop radio feels like there's, you know, I think that's not saying that this person has has a certain point of view on race in particular,

but there's no question that pop music historically has some battles with race and music. Do you feel like things have changed at all considering the music industry in the last year and the rest of the, you know, since George Floyd, since Black Lives Matter. Has the music industry, has pop, has streaming embraced music differently?

Maybe. I think there may be more playlists and more, maybe more looks that they try to do. But I think music is music. Regardless of what color comes from, I feel like great music is great music, wherever it does. We're all the same.

I think that's the biggest misconception all over the world. And when it comes to like equal and different things, I do feel like it's very, very uneven. But I think great music. I think music is like a lot of times colorless. I think music speaks all languages. I've traveled the world and playing music. And I think a lot of it is the same language.

I actually think music may be the only. language that everybody speaks. The last segment it's going to be called five for five. I'm going to list five things. Just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Okay. Pittsburgh.

Home town. Black and yellow, block and yellow. Wait. Are you a Steelers fan? You have to be. If you're not like, you're not from the city. Good team, man. You've had a good team. most of your life. Shit. I don't know what happened

this season. They were like the best I've ever seen and then like... Everyone just got injured. Yeah. Victoria Monet. Legend. Nisia. Legend.

Taylor. Legend. I'm going to do more than five because I'll count that that as like the Holy Trinity right Yeah, exactly. Let's do Rodney Jerkins. One of the greatest of our time, whether people know it or not. Ariana Grande.

One of my best friends. Your dad. Legend. Your mom. Very disruptive thinker. Wait, what? Somebody. Why do you say that? Because she's like, she has our own way of thinking and it's always right.

So that way I learned not to limit myself because with Tanya, you will learn you could do things you never knew that you could do. You could build a deck on the side of a house even though you never built a deck before. I love it. Thank you for doing this podcast. I'm glad we've been able to hang out a bit over quarantine in the last couple months. But it is like it is just refreshing, man. We need to build a community of producers and writers who actually care for each other.

And maybe we actually have a community that cares for each other. Yes, because I feel like people need to be more loving. Everybody is so judging. And this is what I truly feel, right? without going too deep. No, go deep. Go wherever you want. I think people, we're in a world. To me, wisdom, having wisdom is actually knowing we know nothing at all, right?

And I say that to say because everybody always knows everything. And I read this book and I know this. And this book said this. And I feel like even with books, they're like people's opinions. And it's just an opinion that you respect. So I feel like people when people stop knowing everything and be willing to learn from each other, I feel like that's the recipe of just having a lot of this stuff being a lot easier because everybody knows what somebody should do. They should do this. They should do that.

But you really don't know. You don't know how that person feels. And I feel like if we like lead with love and understanding. it's a lot easier for people to get along into maneuver in this industry and a lot of industries in the world because it's just like a lack of empathy towards so many things. And I think when we regain that empathy and understanding of each other and to be able to truly learn from each other, I think that's what's going to move us forward to be in a better place in all aspects.

Well, I'm not going to top that. So thanks for, thanks for being on here, dude. And I'm excited for everything you have going on. It's so fun to watch. And it couldn't happen to a nicer person. Thank you, man. I highly appreciate it. And if you ever need anything for me, let me know. I'm here. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website and and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter.

And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.