And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 149: Lin-Manuel Miranda

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

Today’s guest is a Pulitzer Prize, Grammy®, Emmy®, Tony® and Olivier Award-winning songwriter, actor and director. Creator and original star of Broadway’s Tony®-winning Hamilton and In the Heights. Additional Broadway: Freestyle Love Supreme (co-creator, guest performer, Special Tony® Award Recipient), Bring It On (co-composer/co-lyricist, Tony® nomination for Best Musical) and West Side Story (2009 revival, Spanish translations). Recipient of the 2015 MacArthur Foundation Award, the 2018 Kennedy Center Honors and the 2019 Portrait of a Nation Prize. Our guest, alongside his Family, are active supporters of initiatives that increase people of color’s representation throughout the arts and government, ensure access to women’s reproductive health, and promote resilience in Puerto Rico. TV/Film credits include: Television/film credits include: Hamilton (2021 Emmy® Award,Outstanding Variety Special - Pre-Recorded), His Dark Materials, Fosse/Verdon, Curb Your Enthusiasm (2018 Emmy® nomination), Saturday Night Live (2017 Emmy® nomination), DuckTales, Sesame Street, The Electric Company, House, We Are Freestyle Love Supreme, Siempre, Luis, 200 Cartas, Mary Poppins Returns, Moana (Grammy® Award for Best Original Song), In the Heights, Vivo, tick, tick… BOOM! and Encanto (2022 Academy Award Nomination for Best Original Song). For Vanessa, best of wives and best of women. And The Writer Is… Lin-Manuel Miranda!Watercolor by: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Welcome to And the Update is. I'm your host, Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update.

Sony Music's acquisition of artist services company AWOL has been fully cleared by the UK's competition and markets authority. Universal Music UK has confirmed that its EMI and capital labels are uniting under the joint leadership of Rebecca Allen and Joe Charrington effective immediately. Tempo music, which is the music rights acquiring fund, launched by Private Equity Giant Providence, is selling its music catalog and it's expected to go for around $500 million. Believe revenues hit $682 million in 2021.

The Financial Times has reported that Spotify is drawing up plans to add blockchain technology and non-fundable tokens to its streaming service. After Snoop Dogg bought the iconic Death Row Records brand and catalog last month and promising to transform it into an NFT label operating. in the Metaverse, fans were shocked this weekend to find that several key albums were missing from all streaming services. Universal's Virgin Music has struck a global partnership with Australia's Mushroom Group. UMG's Web 3 label 1022 p.m. has joined Bored Ape Yacht Club's NFT community. Dizer has celebrated its 15th anniversary by opening new headquarters in central Paris.

Pulse Music Group has formed a joint publishing venture with songwriter and producing. producer, Stara. FPI, which represents the recording industry worldwide, has opened a new Southeast Asia regional office in Singapore. Trayvon Williams has joined Encore recordings as its vice president and head of streaming. TikTok has now confirmed that Believe-owned digital distribution platform tune core has been picked as its distribution partner for Sound On. Jonathan Abbott has been named VP of product distribution services at the Swiss music fintech company Utopia Music. Ray Alba and Nathan Shepard have been named Senior Vice Presidents of Marketing at Capital Records, the flagship label of Capital Music Group.

Sony Music has acquired a minority stake in specialist Latin music label, WK Records. A big thank you to Haley Evans of Megahouse for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's exciting new episode of Anne the Writer is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. host, Ross Golan. Today's aspiring Pulitzer Prize-winning, multi-grammy receiving Emmy Award collecting, Oscar-nominated, songwriter, composer, lyricist, actor, and director has already earned the MacArthur Foundation Award and been adorned with the Kennedy Center Honors Medal thing. His musicals have garnered 11 Tony Awards and sold a gazillion albums. His movies have been seen

by hundreds of millions of people. And we're recording this, as we're recording this, he's sitting on top of both the Billboard singles and album chart for seven and five straight weeks respectively. This collaborator has done most of it being a 100% soul writer. And yet, he's acted in shows and movies he didn't write. He's directed movies he didn't write. He's been a part of an ensemble of friends and colleagues on stage without demanding any more of the spotlight than his peers all the way from Washington Heights. I don't know. That's terrible. I'm sorry. But this advocate philanthropist, husband, and father is a champion of education,

arts, and social justice. And the writer is my friend Lynn Manuel Miranda. Bebe, be, be, baby, be, me, bye. Hi, Ross. So, why are you, why are you humble? Why? Because the moment you stop being humble. it all goes away. I've seen the movies too many times. And the fun part for me is in, it's always in sort of what I can learn

and what I can discover. And so if you're always kind of in a student mentality, you can't get too big for your britches. You're always just, you know, I always think when I was a kid, there was a commercial for the Apex Technical Institute. that was like the commercial on like network TV and it was the way they phrased it was like you learn a tool and then it goes into your toolbox after 22 months you've got a toolbox like that's kind of how I see working like every time I work on a new project I get to learn from someone new and get a new tool that goes in my toolbox one of the cool things about theater is that it lives you're constantly making changes even by changing the cast you change a music It's this living thing versus releasing a song, which goes out into the universe, sort of as is.

You master it. And then that doesn't change once it's out there. That recording stays the same. But there's like a life to theater. And I think a lot of people who do recorded music don't go back and listen to their music once it's released. You know, how do you, how do you perceive your art once it's out in the world. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, because there's an analog to me made between recorded music and recorded

film, right? There's actors who also claim, like, they don't watch what they've been in once they've been in it. And I always thought that was bullshit until I actually acted in a movie for real, and you realize your part of the journey is such a small

part of the journey. you know, your days and where you were that day. Like when I watch a movie I've been in, I remember where I was on the day. I remember what I was coming from, what the challenges were. And you really do just remember the process more than the final product. So I finally understood where those actors,

who I thought were being falsely humble, were coming from. Like, oh, that thing that came out is different from and again, whether it's a song or a movie, like where we were in the studio that day, where that lyric came from, when that engineer happened upon that sound. And so, I mean, and I think coming up in the theater, I just, a couple of things. One, I never see it that way because I'm writing something, or I started out by writing things that were meant to be performed live every night. And one, as a result, like, my demos suck. Like, I don't put a lot of polish into them because I know they are just the template that we're going to build on. They really are just sort of like the architect's first lines.

And we're going to go fill all that in later. But I also, you know, I also think when you grow up with like Weird Al Yankovic is your hero, you grow up learning that genre is fluid. that genre is the instruments you decide to use on it, and that melody and rhythm and harmony are the things that really make something special. And they're special, whether they're in polka form or they're in their original form. But you really learn that, like, oh, those things have to be really solid. And then you can stretch and mutate them in any direction possible.

One of the best parts also of theater and animated film is that your jobs are all siloed, and yet there's a lot of collaboration. And what I mean by that is that what you're doing is actually what a songwriter does. You know, even the demos are further than what a legal definition of what songs are. and in my day job of going to studios and writing songs, you know, if you watch Get Back by the Beatles, like all nine of those people in the studio now would be considered co-writers of Let It Be, even though it's clear who the driving force was in that song.

Yeah, Ringo's asleep when Get Back comes to Paul. He's like asleep. Ringo's like a sleep at his drums in the moment, which thank goodness we have. We actually see the moment where like a blues riff specifies into Get Back. It happens in real time in front of us. It's such a gift. And what you're doing is like you're creating songs where what you said, like everyone builds on the song. You're the architect.

And in music, in pop music, that, um, those. definitions of people's jobs have gotten really gray. And in theater and in animated film that you're working in, you know that the songs are written by you. And then whoever orchestrates it and whoever produces it is the producer, an orchestrator of it. It doesn't mean they don't have some input, just like you don't have some input on their work. But it becomes collaborative, but yet everyone is respectful of, the tradition of it. Yeah.

I think that's true. And I also think that's clearer. I really like that aspect of it. I like, it's like playing basketball. Like, you may all play different positions, but like you do whatever it is to get the ball to the hole. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's a point guard and there's a left guy.

There's a right guy. Or you're playing zone. But like, you're all just trying to get the ball in the hole. Yeah. And it's, I think it's clearer when we all have our roles. I love being a part of a team. And I love when I'm working on a show.

And my job is to bring in the song. I know Alex Lackamore is going to have three good ideas I never had. I know Tommy's going to have three great insights and ideas I never had. I know even just the debate will force us to find more clarity. Because that's what you're really looking for. is like the specificity that takes this to another place and to the clearest place where only this song can express it. It's not, I don't know how to write like a love song.

I don't know how to write a ballad. But if you tell me, she's coming home from her first year abroad and she's just upset, she's scared of disappointing her parents, and she's been flirting with this guy all her life, and this might be the moment where it's going to the next level, and they're on 175th Street. Now I have all these details to work with. You know, artists don't want freedom.

Artists don't want to look at a blank piece of paper. They want creative restrictions that allow them to find creative solutions that take us to a new place. I want to tell, you know, in every podcast we've done, we've really gone through a little bit of history of who the people are. And that's what makes this exciting to me. I think what's unusual in your case is that your life is so well documented. You and I are roughly the same age and there is, you know, like two pages on my history

and there's literally documentary films about yours. So you don't have to go through everything, but let's just start from the beginning. You were born. I was born in Roosevelt Hospital in New York City. January 16th, 1980, we lived in NYU graduate housing because my parents were both still in grad school when I was born.

And then we moved up to Inwood, just north of Washington Heights, when I was like two years old. And there I stayed and there I remain. I'm now, you know, a few dozen blocks south in Washington Heights proper. But yeah, I grew uptown New York. Your parents aren't musicians in professionally.

What introduced you to the idea of, you know, again, like being the same age, one of the perks of growing up in the 80s, you have MTV. You have like all these like introductions to music outside of the place we were raised. But you were kind of raised near a lot of the heart of hip hop. Yeah, and I'm just a little younger than hip hop. So, like, I have a cool older sister who takes me to Beat Street and Crush Groove and Disorderly's. I remember the day Disordered Release came out on video. And, like, early 80s hip-hop genre-defining things. I had the brown and tan Fisher Place, Fisher Price, like record player that everyone had.

So I was scratching green eggs and ham and doing what I was seeing in those videos. And also my parents had like a pretty extensive like Broadway cast album collection. Like my mom bumped Camelot loud. My dad bumped Man of La Mancha loud along with Grancombo and Fania All-Stars and all of the great sort of Caribbean Latin music and Afro-Cuban music coming out of you know, the 60s and 70s and 80s. So that's the brew. And I think that's the brew that keeps showing up in my work. My first time on stage was the elementary school talent show and I lip synced Land of Confusion by Genesis.

So it's this mix of like 80s, 80s music and Latin music. And then, you know, I've said this before, but like a profound thing for, for me was seeing how much music moved my parents. Like I remember my mom bawling, listening to bring him home from Le Miserables. And just, you know, when you see something that can make your parents feel, I think that's, that becomes a thing that becomes an avenue to you. I want to make people feel like that. I want to move people in that way.

What were they studying in grad school? They met in grad school at NYU for psychology. My dad's a prodigy, and he had graduated college undergrad by the time he was 18 years old. And he got recruited out of Puerto Rico with a full ride to NYU. The NYU Postdoc program was basically, it was one of those early diversity and inclusion efforts. They were like, we want to really walk the walk. and they recruited him to study psychology in New York. And he came here not speaking English and living with an aunt in the village.

And my mom grew up in – my mom was born in Puerto Rico, but grew up in New Jersey. And they – she already had my sister when they met in grad school. And my dad always meant to go back to the island and then here we stayed. Did you feel pressure to be something other than a musician? Yeah. Well, Ruben Blades is the great curse for overachieving parents everywhere because Ruben Blades is a legendary songwriter, an incredible actor, and he also went to Harvard Law School.

So it was constantly thrown like, that's great that you're creative, but Ruben Blades went to law school. Like, doesn't hurt. Doesn't hurt. I was like, it would hurt for me. Because for better or worse, I cannot care about. about what I do not care about. And I remember one of the biggest fights I had with my dad was going into my senior year,

him trying to make me take AP statistics. And he goes, it'll make you look well-rounded. I'm not well-rounded. I care about these things. And I don't think any college is going to let me get in on my straight C average in math. that I don't think we should add another seed to the pile. Let me take creative writing with Kim Zegers, please. I took it be statistics.

But it was, you know, that was the thing. It was they really, you know, and it comes out of fear, right? Like we live in one of the, you know, toughest, to make a living in the arts is like winning the lotto. And they were scared for me. So they really wanted me to do something that would pay the rent. one of your talents is recalling lyrics and, you know, was that evident already going into, I assume by the time you're a senior in high school and your dad wants you to do AP statistics that you're pleasantly able to just recite all kinds of lyrics and stuff.

In the meantime, this is something that you, is it just natural to you or did you actually have to work at that skill set. I think it's something that comes naturally to kids and something kids really like. And when you grow up, you either grow out of it or you don't. Like, when I saw kids beginning to like memorize the Hamilton soundtrack and make it a point of pride that they memorize guns and ships, I remember thinking this is a variation on my friends and I memorizing the rent soundtrack and assigning parts. I remember there was a commercial when I was a kid from McDonald's.

that was like big magmic d l t a quarter pound of some cheese filet, fish, a hamburger, cheeseburger, happy meal, McNuggets, Tacey, Goldenfer, tries regular, a larger size of salad, a salad, gardener, a chicken salad, Oriental. And like, you were the man if you could do the whole commercial. And, like, who was the first to memorize, we didn't start the fire by Billy Joel? I guess I went to a school with nerds where, like, that was, like, that made you cool to be able to sing these things. So that was just sort of, yeah, that's.

That was something that when I see kids saying they're trying to memorize in Gunther, they're trying to memorize Hamilton. I was like, oh, that's a thing we like to do as kids. And you either grow out of it or you don't. I have never grown out of it. I think it's funny by you, when that idea of being able to memorize something like Hamilton and having, you know, I was going to, one of the things that I have later in this is the idea that you're constantly hearing references to Hamilton.

Hamilton, everywhere you go, in the room where it happens, in the room where it happens, in the room where it happens, and you know exactly what it is. And it's one thing where you walk around and you hear a hit song at a barbecue that you write. That's awesome. That's really cool. It's different when you're watching politicians in the middle of debates quoting you. It's one thing when kids are memorizing your lyrics, but it feels like everybody's memorizing your lyrics. Is there a point? where I guess there are probably certain people that even when they recite your own lyrics to you, where you're like, no, that wasn't the intention, or do you let it go? And are you like, this is cool that it's part of the American lexicon? Yeah, you really do. It's an imperfect cliche, but the fact is, like, once it's out, it's in the world. Like, your kid has moved out of the house. And you can love them and support them, but they're going to do what they do out in the world.

And that's, you know, 90% of the time, like, amazing. And it's wonderful to, I mean, I could pull, like, right now I'm in a mode where 60% of my texts are just people sending me their kids listening to Encanto or singing along to Encanto. and that's just absolutely joyous. And then I will also get like someone sending me a tweet of like, we don't talk about your local sports teams hero. It's just like, that has nothing to do with me. And I don't even understand the reference because I don't know your local sports team. But that's also part of it.

Like it kind of just lives in the world and you can kind of, you just kind of sit here. is the parent on the shore waving at the kids and what they're doing out there. Yeah, part of the joy of having a discography that's as extensive as yours and, you know, at our age, like where we've been around enough where you have some songs that it's cool when it's some kid's first song, you know, and you're like, and the amount of people who send you that video of like their kid dancing to the song or singing to the song, you're like, man, that's this, I remember, you know, that same brown, vinyl player that could play basically small like singles and listening to songs from the big chair

and all these things. And it's like to me those those albums were Enkanto. Those albums were the songs that you know, the hits that you write and maybe even differently than Hamilton like that this is something where a lot of kids will grow up and be like this was my first song. Just like all the Disney songs were for us, you know? Yeah. Absolutely. And on the other side of your question, like when the vaccine started coming out, I think every other tweet to me was like, you should do a vaccine commercial to my shot. And it was like, well, I don't have to because you are all having the same idea at the same time. And you all are thinking you're the first to have the idea. So it's there.

Like it's actually just there for you to have. Like for me to do it would be a hat on a hat. because you're all sending it to me. Okay, so let's go back to some of your education. You know, your dad is like, you should go and have AP statistics and you're thinking, I'm a musician.

At that point, were you already applying to Wesleyan, were you already applying to schools to be in musical theater? You know, what was the trajectory at that point? Yeah, my goal by the time I'd reached senior year of high school was I was really passionate about film and about theater and again in choosing you choose the right heroes hopefully

like my hero at that moment was Robert Rodriguez who had maxed out his credit cards sold blood and like made his Hollywood calling card for $8,000 with El Mariachi and then went and like blew it up and made like an amazing movie called Desperado and he wrote a book called Rebel Without a Crew of being like, you can just start making things.

Like, just start making things immediately. You don't need anyone's permission to make things. But I was also spending, the school year was basically, my school year was basically built around whatever the musical was that spring. And then anything else I could fit in. And so I wanted to, I was passionate about both these things. When you're passionate about both of those, the list of schools gets pretty small that have great.

departments in both. I landed at Wesleyan because I fell in love with film. I actually, when I was accepted, I snuck into a Hitchcock class that was a senior level only Hitchcock class. And my friend Antonio, who was already a freshman there, got me in. And I'll never forget Janine Basinger, who was like the legendary chair of that department, she looked at me and said, some of you aren't supposed to be here. But this is such a rare print. of Autopreminger's Buddy Lake is missing, that I'm not going to begrudge anyone the chance to see it if they get to see it.

It's a really good print. And we watched this amazing, very little-known Autopreminger movie, and this class that was supposed to go from one to four went to 530 just because the discussion was so good, no one left. And I went, this is where I want to go, because the passion of the students

is determining what's happening in the classroom. And I never really experienced anything like that before. didn't make my bus back to New York from Middletown because it ran so long. And the other great thing about Wesleyan is like, there actually isn't a musical theater department. You have to build your own. You learn a lot about the history of theater and a lot about avant-garde theater and sort of modern theater techniques.

But I was kind of a very big fish in a small pond because I wanted to write original musicals and no one else was doing that. So I was just kind of this weird little unicorn, you know, kind of reaching across different disciplines and finding musicians from the incredible world music department at Wesleyan. And so, you know, I have an uncommonly great Latin drummer because that's what he's studying. And so I can write in in the heights. And so, yeah, so, I mean, that was the real gift. And then I dropped, I took all my film credits, but I dropped. film as a major because out of sheer practicality you have to pay for your own theater your own

senior film you don't have to pay for your senior theater project and i went okay i'm going to do the thing i don't have to pay for yeah i think also people like you were saying that people um expect permission to do something and is your story not mine but my senior year was like in my internship program at USC i was like well let me start a record label because i'd already gotten fired from to jobs where I was trying to start a record label. I was like, let that be my internship. And I sold that company to EMI when I, like when I was 23 because it was a project. I understand that people don't have to go to colleges.

But one of the things that you get in a, in that kind of institution is you're supposed to do projects. You're supposed to, if it's a good. program, at some point you have to reach. And so the fact that there was a program where they said to you, you know, you either make a film or you're like, well, can I at least make a musical? This is something I want to do. And then you just do it.

And the school's like, yeah, sure, why not? I mean, that's, that's the objective. Yeah. Yeah. And I agree with you that college isn't a necessary thing. but the things I think are important takeaways that you can get in college are, one, a community of like-minded artists

and people who are trying to do the same thing you're doing. I didn't meet Tommy Kale at Wesleyan, but I knew we had mutual friends and I was able to meet him through sort of Wesleyan students who had seen my work. And two, the mindset that everything you're taking

can feed each other. I think that that's the biggest lesson I take away, especially in times when I have to multitask, of this history of Christianity doesn't seem related to this directing one class. But I'm going to learn something really interesting here and I'm going to bring it over to here. And I find in times when I'm working on more than one project at the same time, if I step back and go, let me pretend I'm in college. Let me pretend I'm in school. Then instead of, oh, I have to do one. all these things that are siloed, I can think about the ways in which I'm thinking about one thing informs the other. The way I'm thinking about this cracks us open. I mean, my most recent example

was I was writing with Alan Mencken on The New Little Mermaid. Alan Mankin is Jonathan Larson's generation. Like, if Jonathan Larson were alive today, he'd be 62 years old. He was trying to get his show off Broadway the same time. They were having success with Little Shop of Holesman. horrors in New York. And so Alan's memories of that time and losing so many friends and a generation of artists to the AIDS virus were really valuable for me as a first time director in this other project I'm working on. He showed me footage of a songwriting workshop he was a part of. And it was like, Alan, you don't know the gift you've given me in terms of seeing what this looks like because I have to put this on screen in two years. So when you can

step back as far as... I'm talking about tick-to-boom, yeah. And so, you know, that bucketless thing of getting to write songs with one of my heroes, Alan Mencken, actually became this incredible found of information for this other project that was set in the

era in which Little Mermaid was written. It's the same time. It's New York in the late 80s, early 90s. So again, I think college helps you with that mindset of like stepping back and making connections across different disciplines.

Did you get a grade on In the Heights? No, that wasn't for school. That was because I just needed to, I was just super pregnant and I wanted to write a full-length musical. And I was encouraged by another student named Matthew Graham Smith, who was a senior and I just thought he hung the moon. I just had the biggest crush on him. And he was encouraging, he kind of created a lab where students would bring in work they

were writing. And I brought in three songs and he was like, you have to keep writing this. And I did hoping he would direct it. And he was like, I have to direct my senior thesis, man. I can't direct like a sophomore project that's just for the student run theater. And so, but I was so obsessed with finishing it that I ended up putting it on. But it was not for credit or anything. the sort of the best lessons I got out of it were because it was this Latin-themed musical set in Washington Heights, I had to search all over campus to find my cast. And the weird side effect of that was everyone at that school had a friend in the show. And so we were a hit literally by virtue of our cast because, oh, Ralphie's in the show.

Oh, Dawn from the student government is in the show because I had to really cast a wide net. And that is a lesson that I've taken with me of like, oh, if you cast diversely, like everyone's got a way in. So, you know, it's, I got a lot of lessons from that, but it was really a homegrown project. When did you meet Tommy? Tommy Kale, a friend of the family. Friend of the cast. Friend of the cast. How did you meet Tommy? Tommy had Tommy graduated right after my freshman year. We learned years later that we actually shared a light plot my freshman year.

I was directing a 20-minute musical in a cafe, and he was directing in a gym. And every night, because we only had limited resources, they would take my lights away after my show and take them over to the gym where his show was. And he was like, who's this fucking freshman? was taking our light plot every night. But we had mutual friends named John Miller and Neil Stewart,

and they were, they were, I guess they were two years older than me. Because when I was a sophomore putting on heights, they were seniors. And they really liked the show. They weren't even in the audience. They worked on the staff of the student run theater. They were sitting in the lighting booth watching the show. And they said, we're going to New York. and we're starting a theater company with our friends, Anthony Vinizzi Allie and Tommy Kale, who have already graduated.

We'd love to talk to you about bringing the show to New York once you graduate. And I said, okay, the cast party's on Home Avenue. We have a half a cake because, you know, I'm not 21 yet. And they were as good as their word. Like my senior year, they came to my senior thesis. And I met Tommy for the first time there. He, like, their whole crew came. My senior thesis was not very good.

It was a different show that will not ever be revived. But I met Tommy there. Why? Is it really that bad? Yeah, it's pretty bad. I mean, I learned really interesting mistakes on it. But yeah, it's pretty bad. Because, you know what? Really, because I was still working on heights in my head, but I still had to write a thesis.

So it's just half-baked. But I remember Tommy Kale shaking my hands there going, enjoy this and walking out and me being like, thank you. Wait, that's not a compliment. And then I met him for real for the first time the week after I graduated Wesleyan. I went to the basement of the drama bookshop where they were painting the walls to turn that storage space into a theater space. They had talked the bookshop owners into letting them make the basement a black box in exchange for making more foot traffic for the shop. And if there were a time lapse of that meeting,

you would see me sitting with four other dudes and hours later, everyone walking out except me and Tommy who were just still talking. And we sort of always joked, like that was the beginning of a conversation that we kind of still dip in on every other day. How soon after that? Because before in the Heights,

and you can see this, you ever watched a documentary of We Are Freestyle Love Supreme on Hulu. When did freestyle love supreme start in order of like you meet Tommy and all the

feels like domino start to fall? Yeah. Well, again, he had he created, he did the most valuable thing which was he created a home base in the basement of that bookshop. And so we began to hire actors and do readings of

of in the Heights in that basement. And it was really just us for a year. And Anthony, his other co-creator, booked the venue. Answered phones at the bookshop and booked the venue. And he wasn't creatively involved with Heights, but on every break, he'd come in and freestyle with me. And then when Chris Jackson became a part of the in the Heights family,

Chris Jackson started freestyling with us. And so it became this thing that we were doing for fun. and Anthony, who comes from an improv background, was like, we should do this in front of people. And I was like, well, we're doing in front of Tommy. How many more people do you want? But we did it. I think our first show was at the pit theater.

It was literally to pre-programmed beats that his friend Abe made. When the beat ended, that was the end of that skit. And finally, we kind of started just like, It was this weird, organic side project that becomes the opposing, an incredibly valuable opposing muscle group to my songwriting, because you're figuring out lyrics and you're figuring out punchlines in real time on stage in front of people. And that only strengthens your work when you go back to your piano. Were you good at freestyling before that?

No. So that really, that's the thing that's the thing that's still. Yeah, I was the kid, even in high school, I was the kid who beatboxed and when they would come to me. I'd be like, no, no, pass it, pass it, pass it, pass it. And I learned a lot about my brain and its response to panic in those times because in the early days, I would try to plan punchlines and try to steer things to the punchlines I had my head. And every time I tried to do that, I'd say the punchline first and then like basically shit the bed for another few minutes. I don't know how to do that.

And so you really learn, oh, there's no shortcut for just being open and receptive to what comes and like building it, building the parachute on your way down. And now I'm at the point where I can kind of do the Tariq Black thought thing of like I hear the word and I can build to the word. But you can't plan punchlines. You're dead. And I know that's how half of rap battles work. But for freestyle, it doesn't work. You really have to just be open and let whatever is coming in, go through the filter that is your brain, and come back out. In this segment, we'll call it, what would Tommy Kale ask Lynn on And the Writer is?

Oh, no. Tommy Kale has a few questions for you. What West Wing character do you think you are? What character do you aspire to be? I think on my best days, I think I'm Sam Seaborne. and I'm idealistic. You know, I have had the experience of, you wrote that speech in the car?

Freak. That's beyond my best days, I guess, but more often than not, I relate to Toby, who is his sort of grizzled older counterpart. The scene I quote a lot, and the person on the other side of the conversation doesn't know I'm quoting it, is when he meets

Josh Molina's character for the first time and just starts talking about how much trouble he's having writing. And he says, I'm sorry, I know we've just met, but there's not a lot of people I can talk to about this. You know, which is, you know, why I'm so happy being on your podcast because you have been alone in the room with a blank piece of paper or a keyboard.

And, yeah, there's something that Richard Schiff does on that show that is so goddamn smart and I recognized it as something I do, that something writers do, that you'll see him in scenes where he doesn't have lines and he's going like this. Hmm.

Like he's writing in his head even as things are happening all around him and his lips are moving. And that's such a tiny, beautiful, actorly detail. And so yeah, so that's, yeah, I'm a Sam Seaborne with Toby Rising. Do you think fans of freestyle Love Supreme will ever see paging Dr. Freud in a show.

You know, every, every show I hope this is the show. It is a game I have been pitching for maybe 12 years now of where we would get an audience member's dream and we would kind of just dig into it as a freestyle crew, kind of a variation on day in the life. We did a couple of rehearsals of it in the early aughts and it ate shit and no one will let me do it. And he has a few more questions. I'll just skip to another one. He goes, will there be a sequel to your first feature Clayton's Friends? Motherfucker. Clayton's Friends is literally a VHS movie I made on a sleepover, on several sleepovers in

10th grade. And because IMDB was so lax in its rules in the 90s, it's on there and I can't get it But no, no imminent plans for a Clayton's friend sequel. Okay, we can skip his other questions. So freestyle of Love Supreme happens simultaneously with In the Heights. In that time, you meet another major collaborator for you, a guy by the name of Alex Lackamore. Yeah. Working with Alex is, we've been very fortunate. You and I've worked with some of the most talented people.

on the planet. Tommy being one of them. Alex is Beethoven. The guy is literally the most, maybe the most talented human I've ever met when it comes. Musically, it's so secondary. It's hard, it's like hard to watch because it's so talented that it's like, I just, I don't get it. Yeah. What was your experience meeting that guy? Well, again, it was one of those things where everyone else met him first. And they were like, you should meet him. So I remember Tommy met him first. And I think the first thing he said to me, and you'll appreciate this, is he's like if you and I had a kid. And it's true, you look at Alex Lackamore, he would be what would happen if you mixed, like one of those like 25-set games where you took two of our pictures and made

our baby. It would be Alice Lackamore. It's Tommy's hair with a goatee. And, but really what's sort of emerged over years of collaboration is, is he's, he really, like, his strengths shore up my strengths in such incredibly complimentary ways. I am someone who, I'm really a big believer in momentum when you're writing. Like, I'm like, okay, this isn't the right chord yet, but I'll find the right chord because, and I'm going to go. and I'm chasing this impulse and I'm going to sort of write it down. Alex is the kind of guy who will try out every possible chord under the note before he moves on to the next thing. Like, that's just the different ways we approach the piano.

And the fun in that, because he's so particular and so fastidious, it forces me, first of all, to be more particular and more fastidious. It makes me better. And two, we find each other in. between. Like it just forces me to sharpen my instincts on what the song is, which sometimes is not the technically correct thing. Like I'm thinking right now of the transition from the Reynolds pamphlet to burn, which are songs I wrote separately. I think I wrote burn before I wrote the Reynolds pamphlet, but the Reynolds pamphlet for some reason was like a half-step difference from

burn. And I was like, well, what if burn starts over the end of it? And he goes, oh, it's a half-step difference. And I see him starting to work out the key change. And he's already, like, way down the road. And I go, no, no, no, no, no. Play it. And you can listen to this on the album if you want. Like, it's like a half-step off and it really rubs.

Like, it doesn't feel like it's a part of the song. And I was like, we shouldn't fix this. Like, we have to trust the rub on this. And that's, like, a great example of how Alex and I work. He is like figuring out the harmony on how to make the math work. And I'm going, do we want to make the math work? It's really hard to find other collaborators that are that talented once you're in the, once you're used to that. Yeah.

It's hard to find other orchestrators, music directors, you know, composers like Alex. In fact, and he asks, and you guys are on the same page, and what would Alex Lackamore ask Lynn on and the writer is. He asks this question. He says, well, it's sort of a statement question, but he says, I'd be curious as to how he finds the chord progressions that create the spark for him. Does he improvise on the keyboard and or let his hands lead? Or does he picture a sound in his head and then realize that chord with his hands? Oh my God. This is like a question Alex and I should talk about couples counseling. I mean, that's exactly what I'm speaking to, right?

Because my short answer is, I'll take it any way it comes. And sometimes I've got a lyric and I'll really chase the lyric before I commit to any music under it. The most egregious example being my shot, which I wrote those verses, took me ages to write them. And I really took a long time before I committed. to the chord progression that would go under them. And again, those are hip-hop lyrics, so it's a little more latitude. And then there are, you know, there's a song like Washington on your side where I just really tried to create as different a beat as possible

from anything Hamilton was rapping on. I was like, what's the opposite of everything I've written so far for that character? Because here are all of his diametric opposites singing together. and I built that beat from scratch and I was really proud of it. I'm not much of a hip hop producer, but everything in that, like every snare and high hat is by hand. And I started there and then just said,

like what's the most different flow from what I've been writing for Hamilton? So I'll take it any way it comes. And then different collaborators force you to work in different ways when, and Alex can appreciate this, when we worked on Bring It On with Andy Blankenbuehler, who was our choreographer, he's got the whole movie in his head, man. And so I found really early on that, like,

if I wrote something that wasn't the literal tempo in his head, he'd, like, bump up against it. He'd go, I don't know, it's not quite there. And so I'd be like, sing what you hear. And he would go like, kukita kaka, kaka, kukita kaka. And I would write down. I would, like, voice memo. go, kaka-k-tac-ca-ca-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-a-c-c-c-c- And work from the beat in his head backwards into whatever storytelling I needed to do.

And that was a really great new approach and worked wonders. So the answer is, I'll take it anyway, I can get it. And it's fun finding new ways to attack the piano. In The Heights goes on to win Tony Awards, and all of a sudden there's got to be some, you know, a show that took 10 years from probably when you started it, give or take. to being a big success. Do you feel like that was the moment where the monkeys off your shoulders that you kind of made it?

It was actually the first performance off Broadway. I felt great. Because again, my hero in this is Jonathan Larson who did not live to see the first public performance of rent. And the first time this incredible cast was doing his work for a public. Like that hung heavy over me. I was really superstitious.

And the moment it was like, okay, it lives on a stage. It doesn't just exist in my head. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow. And that would be sad. But Tommy and Bill and Alex would know what to do. They would know how to proceed from here. I think when I was directing Tick-Tick-Bomb, more than anything, I was chasing the feeling of what does it feel?

like to have a whole world in your head and the barriers between that world existing in your head and that we're that existing in the world and what that pressure feels like um because it's it's different you know first of all that's pre sound cloud that's pre i can get my music into the world very easily um you know john's working on four track recorders and he needs a producer that believes in him. A director, he needs orchestrators, he needs band, he needs so much to get it out of his head and into the world. And so the moment it was on stage, I felt that monkey come off. Everything else has been there's no question. That day of, I've only had one show off Broadway and the day of that, Jonathan Larson is on every composer's shoulder on that day of

making sure you get through opening night or at least through previews and know that, okay, I worked really hard for this moment and that you get to see it. And, you know, I don't know if I believe in legacy or not yet. I still, I often say I don't because I don't, you know, I know kids don't know Paul McCartney is. So like, why are they going to know, you know, anything? And, but that guy left a legacy on every composer's shoulder. Yeah, I think that's true.

Yeah, and what's so remarkable is the work speaks for itself. You know, I think in the initial run of Rent, his tragedy was really bound up in the story of the show. But you're not a show that runs for 25 years and in every language in the world and in Cuba and in places where people don't get musicals if it can't stand on its own two feet. And it's been amazing to see that and sort of with Tick-Tick get to be a little. able to tell more of that story. So after in the Heights, and by the way, I was fortunate enough to see you at Pantages due in the Heights. And at the time, I hadn't seen theater in a long time.

I'd been in L.A. Had I gone to school in New York, I would have done theater. I went to school in L.A. ended up in pop music. I released my first album, but I was doing the wrong man at home on an acoustic guitar. And I would play for all these people. And this one girl said to me, you need to see in the Heights. and I was like,

Thank you, that one girl. I haven't seen a musical in a long time. And she was like, I'm going to take you. And she took me to in the heights. And it was one of those moments where I didn't feel so alone in the idea of telling narrative stories using contemporary music. And I wasn't a, you know, at the time I was a theater kid growing up who then had an eight-year hiatus there. And it really brought me back into the idea of, oh, maybe that is the right place, you know, and I can lead to that at some point.

Well, that makes me really happy, but that's also me just advancing Jonathan Larson's thesis, which was the pop music and theater music can be friends. When rock and roll came, they specialized. And I think to the benefit of both, I don't think you get the incredible breadth of material that musicals can be about without Sondheim and candor and all his contemporaries who really expanded the boundaries of what musical theater could be. But amidst this split, like I think Jonathan's like the grandchild that brought the family back together between like pop music and rock music. And those of us who grew up loving David Bowie's stories just as much as Sondheim's stories or Biggie's stories just as much as, you know, Andrew Lloyd Weber.

You know, we're the ones who just want to bring it all together again. Hamilton, you spend all this time from 2008 or so starting Hamilton. There are lots of stories on this, lots of documentaries, and for all the right reasons. And I remember I was also fortunate to see that show really early on, but after the public. Once it gets to the public, it has a few changes, but not a ton of changes, it seems. but knowing Tommy my guess is that you had a shitload of changes for the eight years from starting it to the public like just so many how do you when you have that much lyrical specificity how do you mentally cope with having to truly adjust story story not lyric story well in hindsight it's actually the

most fun part, right? Our first preview at the public came in at three hours and 12 minutes. And Tommy did a really smart thing, which was, okay, well, if nothing else, we want this to be shorter than it is. Like, full stop. So, like, that can help us cut things unemotionally. And he said, let's cut anything that addresses a character we don't meet. And what landed square in the sights of that note is these, like,

16 bars I had about John Adams, who is not an on-stage character. It's also like my hardest 16 bars. And what was so great about cutting that first, like literally from first preview to second preview, was it also sent a message to the rest of the cast. Like, any cuts we're making are not about you and they're not about your performance, because we just cut the composer's best 16 bars and happy to do it. And we say, what's the one line we need? sit down John you fat motherfucker and like we keep it moving.

And we just kind of, a couple of things on Hamilton. There's not as many cut songs because we were better at it than we were with Heights. It was not an original story the way Heights was where when you have original characters, they can do anything you want. Whereas like we have the spine of this guy's life and American history. And two, and you're going to be. you're going to appreciate this whenever the wrong man hits its next life. And I have it in a different way because I was on stage. I had six or so months of like literally feeling what are

the 100% reactions, what are the 75% reactions, what are the reactions we only get when it's a hip-hop crowd, where the reactions we only get when it's a musical theater crowd. And like, what's the can't-miss stuff? So by the end of off-Broadway, I had a list. of 10 things. And some of those were philosophical, and some of those were like, we got to change the French and Indian war line. But it was very clear because I experienced every performance, and I knew the degrees to which things needed were. There's an assumption by most people that Hamilton's a given, that it was so good. And I know that there were all kinds of people who, you know, success has a thousand fathers, failure has none.

And there are a lot of people who take credit for it. And there are all these things. But it's always these anecdotal stories that really interest me where Anthony Ramos, one of the original characters, Hamilton's son. He told me where he was living in this apartment at the time when you guys, were doing the public where you could almost literally touch like the walls with his arms if his arms are stretched out. And here's a guy who's now

to lead in a bunch of movies. He's going to be a huge movie star. Yeah, he's in Transformers. He's going to be in Marvel. I mean, I've been fortunate enough to write with him a bunch and have some songs out with him. But it's so interesting that the commitment not

just by the creators, but by the entirety of a production to make a production work, the dedication by all of them is so inspiring because it's, it galvanizes all these people. And going through a process like that together too, going through not just A Cho's a week, which is an incredibly bonding experience, but also like the world noticing you all at once and holding on tight to each other. I was at the SAG Awards the other night and I was with Leslie and David and it's like, I know their rhythms so well. I know exactly how we are all going to be when the head writer is pitching

jokes to us. And it's a real, it's a real comfort. It's a real comfort. You know, you telling that story makes me think of Anthony's audition where that guy rapped like if he didn't get every word right, he would have to jump out the window. He was so embodied the lyric, young, scrappy, and hungry that there was just no universe in which he wasn't walking out at the room with the job. In this segment, what would Anthony Ramos ask Lynn on end, the writer is? He had a few questions that I'm going to just skip to these two. He says, was there ever a time where you were so scared to write about something, but you did it anyway? How did you overcome that fear?

And if you did, were you happy you did? All the time. I don't think you, I think part of writing is like leaning into that stuff. The first thing that pops to mind, is quiet uptown from Hamilton. That's my worst fear. My worst fear is losing my child. And I don't know any other way around writing

other than to genuinely put yourself in that position and write until it feels true. So it's a shitty place to put yourself and a horrible and scary place to put yourself. But you have to go there to get there, get to get the truth out. And that's the gig. That is truly the gig. You've got to go to the scariest places and come back with stuff. I love Hades Town. That's one of my favorite new musicals. But the metaphor inside that of like, when you go to hell, keep going and you have to go back and

you're going for a reason. So, you know, that's that's the gig. Like if it's not scary, like, He also asked who are your favorite songwriters besides Ross Golan. But you could use composers if you want. I'll put them in a lineup. I mean, honestly, I'm always just kind of looking for new songwriters and things that, like, articulate ways, things in ways I hadn't heard before. I had the great joy of one of my students when I taught English has become an incredible songwriter. Her name is Ali Deneen.

And I follow her on Patreon so I can hear her demos first. She wrote a song called What You Know. That is maybe my favorite song in the past five years. That feels so much about our moment, but I know it was kind of written before this moment. And, you know, I am, you know, I listen to every. little Wayne feature with interest. I always feel like the Joker, like, where does he get those wonderful

toys? Like, I just, I don't understand how that guy's brain gets from A to B to C in his metaphors and his punchlines. And I'm always sort of listening to the rappers that surprise me and can still surprise me after many years. So lyrically, that's

one where I'm like, can I just sit and watch you work? Same with Nas, same with, and the past few albums. he's done with Hit Boy. And yeah, but I'm always just looking to be surprised. You know, we kind of ghosted over Bring It On. But here's a musical and it's hard to write a musical.

It takes a lot of time. And, you know, the accolades that you get with in the Heights and you get with Hamilton, you don't get with Bring It On. Not to say that it's not a good musical, but you just, it's just not, it isn't at the same level as the other two as far as critics are concerned. How do you handle the, that? Again, you handle it with the perspective that once it's out in the world, it's not yours anymore. But I can tell you, when someone tells me, oh, I really love bringing on,

they're going to get a longer conversation from me than someone who says, my kids have memorized Hamilton. Because, first of all, you don't get Hamilton without bringing on. Like the things, again, in my apex technical tool belt, the things I learned from writing with Amanda Green and writing with Tom Kit and writing with Jeff Whitty and watching the way Tom, Tom, approaches the piano versus the way I do, the way we all trying to dig the movie out of Andy Blank and Bueller's head. I just, I took so many lessons from that. And I went in to get those lessons. It was not my heart's desire to write a musical about cheerleading. That was not something I grew up wanting to do. But I knew I'm going to learn so much from these people. And it has served me so well. And as I watch Ari DeBose scoop up. award after award and Adrian Warren scoop up her Tony for Tina and know that you know with incredible pride that Bring It On is their Broadway debut and it was actually 32 incredible

young actors debuts. It's something I'm really proud of because it could not have been made by any of these artists individually. It was something we, it was the only thing we could make together. Yeah, that's awesome. Shout out to my sister who directed Bring It On for her. She's a a theater director for high school. It's all happening. It has a recent place in the Golan family. Yeah. I see Charlie hovering, which means we're running out of time because I got to go to another.

Okay. We have questions from Bobby and Kristen. We have questions from Pasik and Paul, and we have questions from Elizondo. I know it's real quick. We'll just do this as our last segment. Just going to run through them. Bobby, what is the craziest place you ever wrote a song?

I wrote the lyrics to one of these new Little Mermaid songs in the Asela bathroom on the train to DC. Amazing. Kristen, I would ask him which song that's out there that would be most inspired by your wife? Oh, God. It would be, that would be enough. That's the Vanessa song from Hamilton

that resonates with me the most. Paskin Paul said, what's the song spot or a moment that you rewrote the most amount of times. Oh, the I want song in every Disney movie we're done. It's such a long shadow

of like Disney Hero I want songs that like that's the one that like fucks me up the most. So yeah, waiting on a miracle. There's like three songs before waiting on a miracle. Okay, Elizando said if you could be the lead singer-rapper

of any band, pastor president and president, who would it be? Oh man, I'd want to go back to the 70s and like sing back up for Hector level and watch him improvise. Amazing. Okay, well, dude, thank you so much for doing this.

I was fortunate enough to see you backstage at a Hamilton performance when Tommy brought me and I was like, man, this guy is with his wife and his kids backstage at Hamilton. And I thought that that was one of the classiest things as somebody who wants to have, who wants to represent people who are good husbands and good fathers in the business. And that meant a lot. And I don't think you realize, like, my trajectory is what it is now because of what you did. I would never have met Tommy or lack. I wouldn't have a show on that would have gone off Broadway.

I wouldn't be working to get shows on Broadway or other shows off Broadway. I wouldn't be where I'm at if it's not for you. And every time I get to text you about whatever's going on, I love it because I'm proud of how you represent songwriters. and I'm excited that you're my friend. Oh, yeah, likewise, Ross, you're so incredibly talented and kind. And thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm just too big fan of your show. So I'm really glad you finally asked.

Bye. Bye. Thanks. This episode is produced by Joe London, hypnosis, mega house management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan. signing off.