And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 150: GAYLE

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

Today’s guest is a 17-year-old singer/songwriter who creates the kind of self-possessed pop music that’s empowering for both artist and audience. Since making her debut with the boldly confessional “dumbass”—a heavily playlisted track that premiered in early 2020—the Nashville-based musician has independently released a series of singles built on her unfiltered yet beautifully nuanced brand of songwriting. Her debut single for Atlantic Records, “abcdefu” has quickly proved a breakout hit for our guest, topping charts left and right with a viral stint that’s been fueled by the creation of over 1.5 million TikToks using the track. Along with propelling her to #1 on Billboard’s Emerging Artists chart, “abcdefu” debuted at #51 on Billboard’s Hot 100 before reaching #15. The infectiously honest track peaked at #1 on both iTunes’ Pop and overall US charts, along with reaching the #1 most-Shazamed song in the US on November 30, 2021. Along with reaching #1 on Spotify’s Viral Songs Global and being featured on the cover of Spotify’s “Today's Top Hits,” “Fierce Femme,” “Pop Rising,” and “Teen Beats” playlists,“abcdefu” has also been added to Spotify’s “New Music Friday” and “The New Alt,” and many more. Now at work on her debut project, our guest is intent on making music that offers her listeners a certain emotional freedom. And The Writer Is… GAYLE!Watercolor by: Michael Richey White  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Welcome to and the update is. I am your host, Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update.

Swedish House Mafia sold master recordings and publishing catalogs to Pop House. Universal Music Group has introduced a policy that will see unrecooped balances disregarded for eligible catalog songwriters and artists on its books. BMG's annual revenues grew 10.1% to 784. million dollars in 2021. After raising $34 million, the music funding platform, Beepred, has launched a new artist advocacy council. Orner Chapel and Unknown Music Publishing have signed a global deal with country singer Sophia Scott. Capital Records has launched a new dance label called Lift Me Up. UMPG UK has promoted Danny Sawyer to A&R director. Partisan Records has launched a new music publishing division called Left Music.

Creating Vision has appointed Nick Raphael to executive advisor to A&R Focus Group. Warner Chapel Music has signed a worldwide publishing deal with Juan Pablo Issaza and Juan Pablo Villamil. Red Hot Chili Peppers have received a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Universal Music Publishing Group has entered into a strategic alliance with audio content production studio Audio Up. Zach Katz, the former president of BMG in the U.S. and co-founder of Scooter Bronze, raised in space, has quietly launched a new venture in music.

U.S. rapper Trippy Red has signed a long-term deal with independent record label, 10K projects. Terran Smith has been promoted to senior manager at talent management firm YMU's U.S. music division. Sony Music Group and Glad, which is the world's largest LGBTQ. media advocacy organization have entered into a partnership to advance LGBTQ representation in music and amplify LGBTQ voices in the industry. Stinger, which is a platform offering pre-cleared music for games and the Metaverse, has entered into a partnership with Warner Music Group. Manager Logan Carnes has launched Camp, which is a new artist management company based in Toronto. New Electronic Dance Music label Helix Records has launched alongside a global show

Strategic Alliance with Warner Music and ADA. Noah Guy has signed with 10K projects. We are extremely saddened by the loss of two incredible individuals. The wanted star Tom Parker has died at the age of 33, and legendary drummer of Foo Fighters, Taylor Hawkins, passed away at the age of 50. Food fighters have since canceled their tour dates. A big thank you to Haley Evans of Megahouse for gathering today's news.

Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne The Writer Is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's Rising Star is taking the world by storm after her first single went bonkers viral, like crazy, crazy viral. On TikTok users have made over 1.5 million videos to her track. On Spotify, she found herself number one in the global chart, has amassed over 30 million monthly listeners, and has earned close to 1 billion streams. On radio, the song hit number one on. top 40. She topped the Global

200 chart on Billboard. What? All from her first single and she's only 17. Taken under the wing of previous and the writer is guest Kara DiGuardi and friend of the podcast Pete Gambark. I can say with certainty that this artist

formula spells success. And the writer is Gail. Ah! Oh my gosh. Hi. Hello. Hi, I hate myself for the last line about the artist formula spells success, but if I, the dad and me was just like, you must. You can help yourself. Yeah, you had to do it. Have you had an interview where somebody hasn't made that joke?

Actually, there's been, there's managed to be like one or two interviews where spelling metaphors haven't made it. I feel like specifically for this moment, it was kind of necessary and needed for just the overall theme. And I respect it. I respect it. Yeah, you got to do it. Okay. You know, there's, the biography as far as like timeline isn't incredibly long. But what you have that, I think, of the 150 plus episodes we've done,

I don't think that there's another artist or writer who really is in this, has made this generation work so well. And so I have so many questions for you, but I want to just give a little background. You were born. I was born at one point. Crazy. Okay.

Cool. Yeah. So my assumption is you had a mother involved in that? My mother was involved in that. I was born in Dallas, Texas. I was there for, gosh, I was there, I moved to Nashville when I was 12, and I started going back and forth when I was 10. And I started singing when I was around 7. And I just kind of like woke up one day and just kind of like knew that I wanted to do music. Like it was weird. I was in class and they're talking about scatting. And I believe that Elifist Gerald pulled up and we saw video. of her scatting and I came home and I just would not stop doing that. Like I was just, I was obsessed with it and I was doing it all around the house and my mother just randomly had her seven year old daughter come home scatting and she was like, what are you doing? I was like, oh, I'm scatting, you know. And then she was like, I need to show you other forms of music because you're just literally

doing that all day. And it's okay if you do that, but you need to know that there's options of what you could be singing. And so then she showed me, she showed me a lot of artists that day. She showed me Nina Simone and Josh Stone, but honestly like the most, you need to know, formative person, I feel like for me personally, is that she showed me Ritha Franklin. And it was probably around like a 30-minute compilation of Aretha. And I just remember being like entranced by her. Like I think I had a career day, like a week or two before. I don't know why it made me like think about my career because I was literally just like, that is what I want to do for the rest of my life. I want to be Ruth Franklin when I grow up. And you were a

You were seven years old feeling that? Yeah. Like, who teaches you in class at seven years old? I imagine most of it is, you know, the wheels on the bus. Around and round, but not necessarily. This is scatting. What kind of school were you in where a teacher, you know, says, let me show you the godmother of jazz?

You know, I went to take off. Honestly, like the music program even ended up getting like cut in my school. So like it wasn't even that it was like music was like highly appreciated in the school. It's just like she always taught us interesting things. Like I remember when I learned about harmonies and like she showed it all on a piano and like it just blew my brain as like a young child that I was like whoa. And even with like singing, she would just show us like different singers and like even like just predominantly like I'm going to show you the mother of soul. And and all of that. And not even like the queen of soul. We're going to start from like the way, way beginning and like go from there. And so, yeah, I mean, I... Do you remember the name of that teacher? Oh, gosh.

I wish I did. I actually have emailed her recently just being like, thank you for showing music. Because like I just really like instantly fell in love with it. And she was like such a good teacher. Like she was so nice. but then she moves and it made me sad and then I got homeschooled so it just kind of like all went down hill from there but it was a very like important class to me. Why did you get homeschooled?

I got homeschooled. It was like a combination of things. I just could not get along with the kids there. Like it was one of those things were like it was just I, my brother was always like the difficult child in school like I love him to death and he's so smart but like the teachers hated him. It was like his job to make them the living hell. And I'm the little sister. So of course, I come in being like, I'm his little sister. And then all the teachers are like, you don't like you. You keep an eye out for you. And then also, I just like just could not get along. Like I remember

we used to just singing competitions. And I would do like feeling good by Nina Simone. And everyone would boo at me. And it would just like make me sad. And like I just I just couldn't get along with those kids. or I would one day and then the next I wouldn't. And I really, really wanted to do music. And from the ages of 7 to 10, like I was just continuously doing things to prove to like, one, myself and my family that like I actually really wanted to do music. Like when I was like seven or eight,

I got a toy guitar and I didn't actually get a guitar until I was nine so I can actually like know and prove that I want to learn how to play guitar and I know how to play guitar before I like got one. Or even like I did. 15 minute sets at places and then I did the 30 minute sets. Then I had an hour in acoustic set and mixed in with original songs and doing covers by the time I was 10. And I was like, I did something like 90 gigs in six months or something like that. Like I was just like a maniac because I just loved it so much.

And I just kept doing things to prove to my mom that I wanted to do music. And so it just kind of worked out for her to homeschool me. And I start going to Nashville. And she also had a job that was like able for her to be flexed. school and she worked from home. So it just kind of worked out perfectly for us to start going to Nashville once a month. A few questions.

One is how much of your drive is to prove, you said yourself and your family, but how much of it is to prove the people who booed after you performed Nina Simone? That does actually have, I wouldn't say it has like a huge part,

but I really do feel like that is also particularly why I stuck to it, especially at such a young age when, like, doing music is not necessarily, like, the easiest thing. And it's also, like, you have no idea what you're doing. Like, especially when you come to Nashville, there's no, like, handbook of, like, this is what you do when you come to Nashville. It's like, you're just kind of, like, meeting random strangers. And you're like, hey, let's sit in a room together with guitars and see if we come up with something, by the way, I'm 10. Or even, like, writers around. It's like, you don't know what you're doing. And so I, I definitely, there's quite a few people, especially, like, Texas-wise, us going to Nashville

was not supportive of it, even, like, family-wise. Like, it just was not an easy transition for my family to make. And I think also one of the reasons why we stuck through those difficulties, because it was like, oh, you're telling us we can't do it. Are you telling us we shouldn't do it? Mm, we're going to do it. You know, like that even just kind of added more to us doing it or sticking to it. Because, like, even at times where it's like, it's not always easiest.

And I'm like, especially when I was younger, like more of like 12, 13-ish when I was like, I've only like quit music for like five minutes, maybe twice. And that was when I was like 12 or 13. And that's, and I would think about the people that I would like hear like would just like see me quit. And I was like, no. Like I'm just no. Like I'm not like I can't. I'm not going to prove all those people right. And then also like what else am I going to do with my life and be happy with? Really. If it's not. not music. This is going to be a lifelong battle. I think a lot of musicians can relate to giving a number of times, a number of ways. And the hardest thing is that the people who are supportive of you make it almost impossible to quit. If you have like, you know, it's not the people who,

it's not proving necessarily that people wrong, the ones that say like, oh, you'll never make it. it, that's one thing. It's the people who are supportive of them. I can't let them down. Like, I have to keep going. You know what I mean? Yeah, especially like when my whole family, like my mom, my brother and I, when we moved to Nashville, I was like, you know what? I'm going to like try really, not that I wasn't before, but I was just like, I really want this to work out because my mother just like uprooted her life for me. You know, like, I'm going to try very hard to make this worth it for her, you know.

Can I ask, Did you have any father presence? I, like, I did at one point. Like, my, I had a step, my parents got divorced when I was like three. And then I had a stepdad from, actually, no, my parents got divorced and I was two. And then I had a stepdad from the ages of, like, three to 13. And I moved to Nashville around 12. So I can't remember if it was like a year, year and a half that he lived in the house with us.

And then kind of very quickly after that, like, it just, was a situation where like he's a great dude but he's not particularly like a father figure to me anymore and even at the time he wasn't particularly that um and so and then my bio dad like he just he's a focus on himself which is great i love that for him like he's he's he's having his own time and like that's great and my mother just was always able to kind of like do both roles and i'm very like grateful for her because that was not something that was like easy for her i know yeah um moms deserve all of the everything. Yeah.

What makes you, there's a difference between I'm a fan of music, especially if you're into jazz and soul and R&B, which is, you know, it's cool, but it doesn't, it certainly doesn't fit sort of what I would think your, I guess your, your, I don't know, influencers would be for you. And there's a huge difference between listening to those, that kind of music, and then writing music on acoustic guitar. Even if you wrote on acoustic guitar, you know, there are artists like Lauren Hill or Indy or all these people who can hurt her, these people who play guitar and whose influences,

if I listen to her, I'd be like, oh, well, I would list all the people you just named. Yeah. Listening to the songs you've written, I don't know that I would think those are the people who inspired you to write. They might inspire you to do music. Who inspired you to write? It's a good, you know what's funny? I remember the first time I kind of realized that a song had to be written. Like I remember it, like I never sat and really thought about it.

I never thought about the fact that people had to like write a song and then get production on it and like things get put on to the radio. like they don't just like appear like songs don't appear out of nowhere like i remember me when i first started singing and just started doing music like it just like hit me and i was listening to a niki minage song and i wish i knew which niki minot but it was playing on the radio and like i just remember it hit me because i was like people wrote that like people made that like people had i think it was i think it was i think it was the i think it was the twinkle twinkle little stars in it i think that's the one that like really the da da da da da da da da da da da da but like it was just all of that like together i was like wait people made

this like people like took that put that in parts of songs this is something that happened oh man and then i came home and i tried to write a song and then i was like why is that not as good i'm so mad i was like what do you mean i didn't just write a hit song in the first song that i wrote like what's what's up with that what was what was that first song it was oh gosh i think there's a couple like the first song I kind of ever wrote that I didn't even like try and sit down and write was a song called the bat song it's really unfortunate because like my I had a very like southern teacher and I believe this was like pre-k type type beat is that like I um I said the word cuss and then my teacher was like oh honey that's a bad word because she meant bad word but then like because she was so southern like she was just like oh honey that's a bad word so then I took that as bat word and so then I took that as bat word and so then I came home and I was like, cuss, cuss, cuts, bats are very spooky. It was so bad. It was so bad. And then the song I tried to go home and write after listening to that song was like a summer love song, even though I had no idea what that was like in any sensor, shape, or form. I was just like,

summer love, summer love. And then I remember I didn't know how to finish the song. So I decided to be real transparent and vulnerable with my audience and say, I don't know how to finish the song. goodbye, you know, which is one way to end a song, it's just that you don't know how to end it. I mean, how many times have you been in a session where it's like you're done with the verse and you just kind of feel like ending it? So I mean, sure, why not?

Might as well just say, I feel like ending this song, it's done now. Goodbye. Goodbye. Yeah, exactly. When you, how did you start realizing that you were pretty good? Like, you're doing all these. shows, but there's a difference between doing shows and I'm going to move to Nashville. It's funny because I never moved to Nashville because I thought I was good.

I moved to Nashville to get better. It was never like, oh, I'm good enough to move to Nashville. It was like, no, I'm not good enough. So I'm going to move to Nashville, you know? Cool. Like, I really wanted to, like, work on my craft as a performer. I started music really in the love of performance. Like, I loved performing for people.

And then I was kind of told and figured, like, I'd be bad. a better performer if I could like play a guitar. And so then I learned guitar. And then it was like, you'd be a better performer and artist if you wrote your own song. So then I started writing my own songs. And then that also transformed. Like I then fell in love with songwriting, like just the art of like songwriting and even collaboration. And then that was really huge in Nashville like co-writing and that I feel like there's such a, not that it is in LA, but it's just like the collaborative culture of like literally meeting a random stranger at a bar do it with. rounds. I mean like, yo, let's write a song together. Like that. And there's not even like always

necessarily the pressure for it to be a hit song, for it to be the best thing we've ever written. It's just like, no, let's put our heads together and like write a song. Like what is the best song that we could write in this moment? You're not even allowed in bars. How is it that you did these, how did you do writers rounds where people would take you seriously? Oh, people did not take me seriously for, I mean, some people still don't take me seriously, which I'm good with. But I, my mom was always with me. Like always, I would never really go to a bar alone. And then most of the time, if you have a guitar on your back, they'll let you in.

Like, if you just walk in and you're like, oh, I'm playing. They're like, okay. Like, they'll put X's on my hand always, but they're like, okay, all right. And then most of the time, like, I'll, I would just, like, reach out to people on Instagram or there's, like, the Facebook front, like the Facebook circles of people who book rounds and, like, I would just reach out to them. they'd have a scheduled time for me to play and then I'd just show up and they'd let me play. And most of the time they'd let me stick around at least for like an hour or two,

which is always really nice so I can like, because there's always like, I feel like it's an unspoken rule, but it's definitely like a thing in Nashville where like you don't just go to your round. You either go to the round before you and you stay all the way through or you stay for the round after you or you do both, especially when you're like just starting, you should probably do both. Just to be polite and also just to meet people, you know. and so I also did that as well, and that was like very nice. But also some places would not let me or like some places like... That's a really sophisticated respect that very few people have regardless of, you know, where they are in their career.

Where did you learn that kind of respect? Or was that, like, where does that come from? I think, I don't know, like a lot of it, too, is like I was always a kid. Like I was always 10 in Nashville. I was always 11. I was always 12. I was always 13. And like there wasn't particularly like there's there's definitely young kids in Nashville 100%

but there wasn't necessarily a lot. Like there's max like four to five kids and you wouldn't necessarily all be together in the same day. And so because of that like I was always surrounded by adults and I just always knew to like be polite and respectful towards adults, especially when you're like the child who has like no respect. And like especially when people are disrespectful, specifically that we're like, like just disrespectful to me. You're just like not respecting the fact that I do music. And I would,

I would understand it because I was like so little doing it. It was just that I always knew, I guess my goal was to counteract it with respect and just being polite. And I also feel like in Nashville respect and politeness is something that's like really just respected. Like if you're just polite and nice to somebody and respect their time and who they are and what they do and their craft, they're more likely to do that for you. You know, and like even if, if you're hard to work with, nobody's going to really want to work with you, even if you're talented. Like, if it's just, if you're difficult, you're difficult, you know. And like, I just never wanted to be that. When, when you moved to Nashville, and this is an aside and I want to

go back, but how did your brother deal with that? Because he, did he want to, did he want to be a musician? I mean, he's older than you and then you guys moved to Nashville really because of your desire, it seems. How did, how did he deal with that? He dealt with a lot of health issues growing up. He just had a lot of mental health things that just got put onto him that he personally had to deal with. And so at one point, he actually was in boarding school. And it wasn't even like anything bad. It's just that like with my mother, like he needed an authority figure and I think specifically a male authority figure that he could respect.

And like there just wasn't that in our household. And so it was either like my mother having to like, fight with him every single day for her to try and respect her and ruin, almost like ruin their relationship or just make the like son, mother bond like just so much harder or could just send him to an all-boys born-school for, I think he was there for like a year and a half and it honestly like completely changed him as a person and just made him more like respectful and understand authority and like understand the reasons why he gets asked to do things, especially like social cues just got like wasn't necessarily always the easiest thing.

for him. So he just needed to have like a very social environment that like us as a family just couldn't particularly give him at the time. And so what we would actually do is like we'd be in Texas and then he was in Arkansas and we were in Nashville. And so we'd go to Arkansas, visit him, go to Nashville, be there, go back to Arkansas, maybe see him and then come back. Like we would always see him as much as we could. And so when he, when we moved back, he was a freshman in high school and he just left boarding school. So he was so excited. He was like, I'm at. out, you know? And we then, like, put him, he was in high school, and we just put him on the football team as a freshman, just walking in because we're like, maybe this will make him friends.

Like, let's see how this works. And it actually, like, it honestly worked out great for him. Like, he recently started being supportive of music. Like, I would say that's something that happened, like, 10 months ago. Like, it was a little bit before I put out ABC. Like, I remember he walked into my room and he was like, you're like, you're. your music doesn't suck all the time. And then just walked out. And I was like, okay. All right, I'll take it.

You made it. I did it. No, like one thing, like one thing that made me be like, you know what? Maybe ABCDEFU like can do something. Like maybe people aren't going to think it's like totally stupid because my brother doesn't think it's stupid. So that's something. You know?

Yeah, totally. You said that there are still people who don't respect you. And then he said, but I don't care about what they think, which is fine. But why don't people, like, what do you think their hang up is? I think some of it can be, one, just like assumptions, like assumptions of, like, I don't write my own songs, even if, like, I just, like, put my name on them. Or, like, I could tell you a million things or even just that, like, some, and I understand it, like, some people think that I just, like, started doing music a year or two ago, which is, like, totally fine. Like, I'm cool with people having that assumption of me, but I've been in Nashville for almost eight years, you know, and like I've been really doing music or attempting to do it professionally, like, been trying to do this for 10 years, you know? And I'm not necessarily saying all of that was like good, productive work for music. Like, but I've, I've been really trying to pursue this for a minute and like I'm so good for to keep continuing to try and do this for a minute. But it's like sometimes people just think, I like started doing music like a year or two ago or that I particularly like got things handed to me.

Or I remember people or just be like, well, you had connections. And it's like, but I made them over years and years. Like I just met people and like nobody like or I've had people tell me that my dad's marketing executive. Then I'll be like, go to my home, yell out for my dad. Nobody will come. Like try. Like, come on. You know, like it's funny.

That's all good. But like if you're going to try and like. undermine me or undervalue my work. Like, come on. It's weird. One, I think more women pop artists, and not to lump you in pop, but the success of the first song being in that realm,

most women who are successful write their music compared to most of the men I know who are successful in pop. If we named most of the biggest male artists, a lot of them do not drive their music. And yet I know most of the women do. And that's one of the most misogynistic things that our culture has put on to our industry is that the women are puppets and the men are somehow creating the music from scratch. We know of pop male artists who've topped the Billboard songwriter charts who cannot write a song.

And we know women who have top five Billboard. Hot 100 songs that don't get the credit they deserve and they're somehow excuses. Lump that into, I'm sorry, this is not to get on like a soapbox, but, you know, I work with Kenzie. I don't know if you know Kenzie is, and Kenzie's 17 years old. She's brilliant, really good songwriter. And, you know, I've seen her be part of other communities in the past where they thought, well she should be this kind of artist

she should be that and they never listened to her because they never thought like oh a 17 year old woman has a point of view that we should support rather than you know well let me manseplain what kind of music you should do

and then force you to release that I feel like our industry doesn't recognize when there are artists like Julia Michaels who is in it super young. You know, the people like you where you have more experience than somebody who's 25 who started writing when they were a junior in high school.

You know, you have more experience than any of those people. And I think that the industry as a whole doesn't take a step back and recognize that somebody who's been focused on it for 10 years, regardless if they're 17 or they're 27. You know, it's still 10 years. of going through the hustle. So, you know, that's probably how I should have closed this podcast,

but instead we're still going. Okay. You went from, you know, I'm going to songwriter rounds to meeting our mutual good friend, Kerry Diaguardi. So explain how you meet, you know, there are very few people in the industry who can claim as many hit writers. that they've discovered like Kara.

How did you meet Kara? Well, so I met her. I was 14 at the time. And I say I was throwing this event. I believe it was with Kara, where 40 people go and 20 get to sing. And so my mom ended up signing me up for it. And I remember I was like in the middle of my right

and my mom came downstairs. And I was like, Mom, what are you doing? You know, I was like embarrassed. And then she was like, I signed you up for this thing and you got it. It's for guarantee you. Because like she has seen her on Idol. She was so excited. And like, I knew who she was.

And so I was like, oh, that's awesome. And so then I go and I literally walked in and I like wrote my name down and I put it in a hat. And then everybody showed up. And then I think I was like this sixth or seventh person that got picked from the hat. And I remember I didn't know whether to do country song or not because I've written country music before. And like I've actually done, I started out in country music. And so I was like, do I do that or do I do this like pop song I just wrote? But also it was unfinished.

Like it wasn't like fully done yet. And I just very last minute decided to do the pop one. And it was the worst performance I've ever given in my life. Like it was absolutely terrible. I was pitchy. I was enunciating. I was also, I'm pretty sure I was sick as well back when it was socially acceptable to go to places when you're sick and now I definitely know better. But I just remember thinking like, oh God, that was like terrible. And I co-wrote that song with a friend of mine and she was 15 at the time when I was 14. And I just remember like Kara was like really surprised

that I wrote that with somebody else that was also like really young. Um, and then, because I remember also, because somebody else was critiquing to and I was like, they're like, did you co-write that? And I was like, yeah. And then they're like, oh, like, okay, you know, because like, oh, you care with that, you know. And then I was like, yeah, she was 15. And they're like, whoa, you know. Um, and then. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, because they were also, like, I understood if I was like, oh, I wrote that was somebody who was like 35. And then they're like, oh. And I was like, no, like she's 15. Um, and then I went. home and I was like that was so terrible she's never going to talk to me again I remember thinking I was like

I can't wait to run into her at a whole foods in like five years and for her to pretend like she remembers who I am but I know that she doesn't but I'm just going to act like she does know who I am when I'm like Kara and she'll be like oh so good to see you um but she ended up emailing NSAI for my contact information and NSAI reached out to my mom and then she told me to, she set up a meeting, and then she told me to bring my favorite co-writer, and so I ended up bringing Sarah Davis, who I wrote ABCD-EFU with, actually. That's so crazy.

I mean, Kara's, she's maybe the most impressive ear that in the last 20 years, if you look at the people that she's helped open doors for. And in this segment, what would Cara Diaguardi asked Gail, and the writer is. She asks, I'd, she says, I'd ask her if she considers herself a rock chick and what that means to her. Oh, my God, of course you'd ask me that question. That's so funny. I'm not even lying. When I first met Kara, I was like, I am the chain smokers. That is me. I am one with them. I am EDM. Music, that is me. I am that. Like, I was hell bad set on it. Because I loved like the chain smokers one thing I really absolutely adored about their music is the catchiness of it. Like it was just so hooky and it was just so big.

Like everything had like such a huge moment and it was just so catchy. And then Kara would look at me and she'd be like, you're going to do like rock. And I was like, no, I'm chain smokers. They are me. Like what are we talking about? She's like, mm, you have an edge. And I was like, I do. do not have an edge proceeds to cut hair, pierce nose. I do not. And then like I literally,

she never even like, I literally don't know how she like guessed that I would even just like get inspired by that. Like I literally could not tell you like Kara has this way of seeing you before you see yourself and like but also not making you into that. Like she gave me the room to roll into that myself. But the fact that. but the fact that she even knew I would even like do that is what blows my mind and she asked that question just so she can like prove that she's right you know it's like I

it's one of those things where like genre rise I feel like there's so many arguments that lead to if you're like I'm this genre or I'm this and then it's like well technically this is known for this so when you say you're doing this you're actually doing that like there's so many arguments so I would 100% say I'm inspired by rocker chicks and like that is something that like I really love to be inspired by and like I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a rocker chick because I feel like that just like puts me in a place that like

if I stray from or if I don't do something exactly like that like it's not necessarily that but I definitely would say that I'm inspired by that and I really try and like have that specifically in my music and my live shows like when you think rocker chick are you thinking Courtney love or Phoebe? Are you thinking like, you know, old school kind of, kind of, you know, rock kind of people? Yeah, I think more like Joan Jett, Alanis, Stevie, you know, even blondie, like I'm wearing a blondeie shirt. Like that is more of the vibe that I'm thinking, but even like Phoebe thinking of like the new word. She's great. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Amazing. Incredible. You know. So yeah. What I'm thinking, I'm thinking more of like the, for me, what I would consider like the classic badass women,

female rockers, but also like the ones that are coming now and even like five to ten years ago that are just so prevalent still to today. I mean, another thing about women in music right now, and I hope people are paying attention that women have brought back instruments. Women are the ones who brought guitars back into pop music. They've brought a grit back to pop music. music, they, you know, when the Grammys, I think it was last year, all five of the artists in the alternative, alternative category were all women. Like, women are the more progressive rock musicians right now. And you take Travis Barker out of everything that he's featured on. And it's, there's, the entire list are all the,

amazingly progressive, strong women in music right now. I just hope that people are noticing how this movement that you're now a part of.

It's really cool. It's fun to watch. Yeah, I mean... Thank you. It's very exciting. I'm very excited to watch that progression of music be happening right in front of my eyes and face.

Like, it's really exciting. Well, yeah, especially because, you know, when you're going to, you're on these, I'm sure, radio shows or live shows and stuff, and you're going to look to your left and look to your right. And then there's, you know, it's not, you're not going to be the only female on that bill. You know, it's a, it's a, I love that. How did you get involved, you know, Kara's your publisher and part label, a person along with Atlantic Records. Tell me about what it was like to, you know, it's one thing when you go, Kara calls you, you have meetings with Kara, she gives you this room, you guys are feeling comfortable because it's a big step,

but I'm sure the goal is to get this record deal. Tell me about what it's like to sign to not just a record company, but Atlantic Records. I've personally wanted to be with Atlantic since I was 12. It's just something... Why? It was because it was Aretha Franklin. Like, Aretha Franklin was signed to Atlantic.

And then later on, I want to say I was more like 15-ish when Lizzo's album came out. And she was also with Atlantic. And I just, like, one, I loved Lizzo. And something that I really was inspired by with her. And other people, like, other artists have done this. But this was the first time I really, like, noticed it. and it was like she was coming from this perspective of such confidence that was just so like interesting to me especially as like a young female watching Lizzo like just come out and be like I'm great and like you're not

appreciating my greatness and that's a problem like she still had like problems and she was still dealing with things but she was still like in this positive place of like I am good you know like I am these things and this is not negative, but still things happen. That was just so interesting to me because I also had never really done that. I've never, like, came from this place of, like, confidence, lyrically. But with Atlantic, I, funny enough, never really, like, I told Kara, like, I really want to sign with Atlantic one day. And, like, I was also just very, like, head, face focus. Because for a split second, I was like, maybe I don't want a publishing deal.

I want a record deal. And I'm like, that's not how it works. You kind of need to do it. It kind of helps if you do one before the other. And especially like as a 14 year old, the major label wasn't necessarily going to be like, here's a record deal, you know. And so I signed with Kara and it was like a development deal on the writer and artist side. And one thing I'm really appreciative that Kara did was just like, do what inspires you.

Like take all the things that you want to do and do it. Just do that. And I did that honestly for a solid like. year and a half, almost two years, where I just like, anything I wanted to write, I just did. You know, anything I found inspiring musically, like, I just, like, let inspire me. I wasn't specifically tied to one genre. I wasn't tied to one type of artistry. Like, I was just doing what I liked.

And then I was also writing for other artists at the same time. And, like, it just, consistency is kind of started happening. Like, if you're doing the things that you like, eventually what you like starts kind of getting consistent. And then also figuring out, like, how to be consistent. and without sounding exactly the same or all that too. And she was sending my music to Atlantic and I knew that. Like they're like always listening to my stuff or sometimes I'd be like, do you like this

song? Like hey? Like, how are you doing? Like you like this song? And then I remember I had a song called Z that came out in 2020 and it actually, I wouldn't necessarily call it viral. but it had a moment in South Korea. Like it was just and it was very, it was very isolated, but it had like a spike.

And with like no money, no marketing, nothing like this video just got reposted of me. And all of the lyrics and everything I was saying that got translated into Korean. And literally it just got, I don't remember how many views, but it was something where I was like, in six months, it got like 600 to 700,000 views and specifically like one area. And I think Atlantic was able to see with no marketing, no money put behind anything that, like, people positively reacted to my music. And especially like it was a song about making fun of Gen Z because I think it was funny to make fun of the way people make fun of Gen Z, you know. And so I, that ended up, had them feel like inspired to put a deal on the table, which, and the deal, the deal, the deal, kind of took a little bit just because also I was a minor and the deal was out in New York and I was in Nashville and so having to deal with that. And then just like I had to go through family court

and like just had to set up things. And so I ended up signing the deal in 2021. And it, I'm not even lying. Like it was just like a dream come true. Like it was absolutely everything that I've ever wanted. And I would literally, I used to sit in my room and just daydream about me even just being able to tell people that I to Atlantic or like that I got the deal or that like even I used to just imagine them like offering it to me or me being able to sign it like that was something that I just had like thought about and just had wanted so badly for so long so it was just very exciting that that actually happened well in this segment what would Pete Gambarg the president of Atlantic and you're A&R guy what would Pete Gambar asked Gail on And the writer is he asks, he says, I literally just found out that you have a rare

phenomenon of synesthesia that allows you to see colors in the music you listen to. How does that inform and influence your songwriting? That's a good question. So I have chrymesthesia. So it's basically like any music I listen to is me, like, is a color. And I don't know how to like explain it. It's really not that like fancy, but it's literally just like, a square box in my brain and I just see a color. Crazy. And it's what somebody actually once asked me if it's this what's first, the song or the color.

And I wish I could see a color and then just like think of a song. Life would be so much easier if I just like looked at blue and then I was like, you know, but unfortunately it's not how it works. It's weird because like it actually really affects it a lot because there's times where I like songs and even like the production and I don't like the color and it drives me crazy because that means there's always just something I don't like about it but like there's no reason for me to like not like it other than the fact that I'm like it's like I just don't like that type of yellow and it's like shut up like that's annoying or even like there's times where I like am completely ignoring it

but the fact that ABC was always red like it was always red that was always a red song it was red and then Pete Knappy, put production on it, that was green. And I'm ignoring it. And I don't tell anybody. And I'm just like, no, it's a red song. It's not changing. It is what it is. Even a single cover is still black, but I still say it's red.

It's just, it is. It's so green, but it's not anymore. It's just going to be red. That's amazing. That's just my stubbornness. I definitely remember somebody in a session saying, like, can you make it more yellow? And being like, I don't. I don't.

I don't know. I don't know how to do that. And I don't know. Have you worked with other people who have that? And do they all see the same color when they, you know, do other people hear ABC as green or red? Nobody particularly that I worked with, ABC, had chromesthesia or synesthesia that I know of. I should probably not be an asshole and ask.

But no, I haven't particularly worked with anybody that I know of that has like chrymesthesia or synesthesia. But I do know somebody that I worked with that sees things in shapes, which I think is really interesting. Like every song has like a shape to that that always like comes up or even like every line or things has a shape. And I think sometimes the shapes can have colors. So that was really cool.

I was like, that's sick. All right, so let's go to ABC a little bit. Obviously, you've done a million interviews now about it. But, you know, your brother says that he's like, you know, I don't hate all your music. That's a start. Yes. You know, at this time, you're signed to Atlantic. So there's probably some sort of structure around it.

Everyone probably likes the song. The song sounds amazing. So for sure, everyone is, you know, it's mixed well. produced well. Thank you. It's ready for this moment. But I mean, all of us have, you know, all of us have

songs that have come out and they do pretty well and we're all stoked. This is such a different level of success. Tell me about like, one, the emotional part of watching

a song take off. Tell me about the story of like what it is from the minute you release it, you know, and how much you're like staring it, how many people are sharing it and all that stuff. Yeah, I mean, even the song, like, I wrote ABC before I got signed to Atlantic, but there was no production on it before I got signed. And after like there is, it kind of got official like the deal was like in January of 2021. And it literally took months and months and months to like get ABC done. It took so many producers. Like I want to say probably it's like seven or

nine producers and like per producer they probably did three to 20 versions of ABC. Like I've I know producers that have literally done like over 18 versions. And Pete Napi was like the last person we went to. And not even like these producers like it's not that they weren't talented. And it's just like it just wasn't doing what we needed for the song. And they were making it all sorts of yellow and Oh my gosh, just going to all of the things. Well, even in the alternate versions of ABC, what this song is, oh, that's the cutest dog ever.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Sorry, I feel like he's sitting at my feet and being the lyric of the chorus. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to. Yeah, please. People can't see this, but he's just going to join for a little bit. Okay, so keep going.

And even like every with the alternate versions we did of ABC what this color of the song is is what the single cover art is so like the chill version's purple so then the single cover's purple and all of that. But and then I made the demo green even though so then I can say that the first version is red but it's not but it's fine. We won't talk about it. It's fine. But it was, you know, like it came out and I had 12,000 monthly listeners before. ABC came out. How many? 12,000. Okay.

And then I had what song over a year get 500,000 streams and I had like 10,000 Instagram followers, 10.6 if I'm going to be like super specific. You know, I'm like, I was good with it. Like I also like with Atlantic

like I understood the fact that I was like a baby artist. I was like a 17 year old girl. So they weren't necessarily going to put like all of their eggs in one basket for this release. And like I knew. that. And like I remember like three months after it came out. I was like three or four months I can't remember. And it had like three million streams. And for me, compared to what I did last time, I was stoked. Like I was so happy. I even remember when I had a million monthly listeners. Like I was

so excited. And I remember I like posted a few TikToks of ABC. I posted a few TikToks of ABC before ABC even came out. Nothing happened with them. I think they maybe got 200 views. Maybe. And then I posted one video of me duetting a comment and it almost got like a million views. Like that was like the most attraction on TikTok that I'd ever gotten ever. And it just like it still didn't make anybody. I feel like the biggest transition that really like just put everything running in a different level was people using the audio of ABC on TikTok. It wasn't necessarily people like viewing me. talking about the song. It was people finding out about it through the videos that people were making.

And like, I'd ask people to make videos to ABC. But the thing is, is like, I couldn't get anybody to, like, cross the line. Like, I couldn't get anybody to shit talk their ex-boyfriend. I couldn't get anybody to, like, really, like, do things that were actually, like, watchable or, like, actually interesting. And so, like, any videos I ask people to make, like, they didn't really do that great. And I just, I just, remember I was on tour. I was on tour with this band, Winnecobulling Lake. They're absolutely amazing. It's like Matthew Coma's band. They're awesome. And I was looking, I was in my hotel room, and I was looking, and I was on the phone, my best friend, Sarah Davis, and who I wrote ABC with. And, like, we're sitting and we're talking. And we're just like, that's weird. The videos have gone up. Like, I remember it was like a thousand videos for me. And for her, so it was 3,000. And I was

like, huh, like that's weird. But I wasn't really thinking anything of it because also I was like, there's no way. There's literally no way that like anything's happening with this. I've tried so hard. Nothing's happened. The song's been out for a couple months. Like, I'm so good with where it is. The last thing I want to do is try and like hide myself up to think anything's happening

with it on TikTok. Because like, especially when you're an artist and you've been trying to like make a trend for a song or been trying to push yourself for literally a year and a half almost every day. It's like you get very. aware when things of the possibility of like becoming something but because they had the possibility of happening maybe possibly and then they don't happen i just stopped thinking that way or like getting my hopes up and then the next day it still said a thousand videos for me and i asked sarah the next day and she was like it's at like 5,000 and i was like what is what is going on and then i looked and it was all

like sign language like people were just putting sign language to abc and like it was literally just every single video and then people in the caption started going like this trend made me touch up on my ASL or this trend needs needs me to teach people ASL because they need to be a lot better like I just kept seeing and then all of a sudden I started like rumors just started going around which was like really funny how it kind of helped push the song or like somebody made a rumor that I dated Jake I now learned how to pronounce his last name uh Jillen Hall like I had dated Jake jillenhall and then I wrote ABC about Taylor Swift. And like, I literally just had to be like, bro, I dated somebody that got fired from a coffee shop for hooking up with one of his coworkers, like, and bought a car off Craigslist that worked for less than 24 hours.

Like, I don't know what, like, I'm not, I'm not sitting here dating Jake Gyllenhall or I'm not sitting here being best friends with Taylor Swift. But I love to be, absolutely. But I'm no, like, I'm not sitting here being like, what's up, Taylor? like no you know and then like it just kind of like all then people started breaking plates to it and then once i started doing well on ticot it kind of like switched over to instagram reels like i started like posting i was posting this thing where i was putting ABC stickers everywhere just because like it was a fun content piece and like i really loved seeing the scenery and aesthetically i just kind of liked how it looked on my feed and so i was doing that and then those videos started

getting like a million views and then one started getting three million views and it was with the ABC audio and then people started like I remember somebody posted a video of a boat and it got 15 million views and it was just like a photo it was a video of a boat like it did nothing was interesting going on it was just and it got 15 million views and then like honestly the highest views started getting on reels that started doing more it kind of went over to tic-tok that started happening more people started making videos on the audio and then like I remember in a a month, it got 100 million streams. And that was the thing that was the most ridiculous. Like, that was the craziest thing to me because at one point, like, literally it had seven million

streams. And I was like, that's awesome. Like, I'm stoked. I was so excited. And then a month later, exactly a month later, it had 107 million. And like, that month was like the craziest thing. Because it was just like, what is happening? Like, what is going on? Who is seeing this? How are they saying this? like especially when like things just started popping up on viral charts in different places and it was just like why like what's going on and I think one thing that's also really interesting about social media is how like international it can be like it's not always necessarily in like one spot or you can have like something on YouTube do really well in South Korea but then like you can have something that does well in Taiwan or you can have something that does well in like Paris like it just like literally

it has access to the whole world, you know? And so that was kind of like the process of ABC, like when I really noticed that it started like, I still, like, it's hard because like I'm still trying to comprehend everything that's happened and even like admitting that the song is successful still something that's difficult for me, especially like I'm so used to doing the grind and like nothing happening, which I was good with. Like I was good with, but now that something actually happened. it's hard to like acknowledge the fact that something actually happened you know or even the fact that it like went number one on top 40 radio like i still can barely be like it's a hit song maybe like i'm like i don't know yeah it's weird that the songwriter PTSD is so real the years of of songwriters to just very this is a good example of how long it's taken

that you have the PTSD, you're young, but you're very experienced. And so you've had 10 years of disappointments, you know? Like that's like what you genuinely need to be, to handle it well. If you were successful right away, you would not be handling it with such grace. But I think because you're experiencing it in real time, but your peers, a lot of them, are older and a lot of them have gone with you for many years even if they're the same age but you're not surrounded by you're not surrounded by a bunch of people where it happened to be some viral video because you just happen to write it like yesterday you wrote that over it took years it took

nine seven to nine producers or whatever it took all those versions to make it sound as good as it is but I love the idea that how many of us have tried to make a song go viral and you cannot make a song knowing that people who do American Sign Language are going to use it as some sort of anthem I know this is your story and not mine but I, you know, when they, they went out with my house for Flowrida and no radio would play it and it wasn't really doing anything. It just wasn't a single, really. Like it was the third song, it wasn't really, it just wasn't a thing. But because of fraternities and sororities on, during

rush week, started using welcome to my house that all of a sudden, you know, it would spike on weekends because during the beginning of school, all these colleges started using it, and it bled out from there. And nobody writes a song with the idea of these random niches are going to own this. I mean, yours actually, like, you know, the idea of bringing ASL to the common person

is actually altruistic and important and it has way more meaning to it. So kudos on that. It's amazing. Your second song on this EP that comes out, I believe, tonight. Oh my God. Yes, it does.

Holy shit. No, sorry. I mean, I know this isn't going to air tomorrow. But first of all, congratulations. Thank you. Are you excited? Are you nervous? It's a little bit of both. I haven't released an AP for Under Gale, like, ever. So it's just like, it's so exciting.

What do you mean? What did you release it on before when you say Under Gale? Well, okay. I started music under Taylor Gale. Like, my real name's Taylor. But, like, I started going by Gail at 14 and I just kind of, like, stuck to it. And so I definitely have released music under Taylor Gale before. Is it still available? Is that available? Like, can people stream that? Oh, absolutely not. It is off the internet.

People can probably stream it just because, like, I know people that have downloaded the EP that's, like, still on their, you know, on their Spotify or I still have it on my iTunes because I bought my EP on iTunes. Yeah. But so, yeah, I mean, I could be like, this is the only EP I've released ever, but that would be a lie. And I try my best not to lie. It all comes out anyway, so you might as well.

Yeah. Congratulations on that. Tell me, you're Just Horny is your second song. It seems like the first two singles, and the whole EP is not available yet for me to listen to. But are you able, are these coming from actual relationships that you're having with people? Oh, yeah. I mean, like, ABC was about my ex-boyfriend. And it's so funny because, like, there's a song called Kitty Pool.

And basically, like, the hook of it is, like, don't want kitty pools. I'm a fool. I want oceans. And it's basically about, like, falling in love with somebody and, like, wanting to know everything about them. And there's, like, the beginning is, like, I have my leave you before you leave me type of mentality where it's like, I'm always aware of people trying to leave me. Or, like, I'm always aware of people trying to, like, feel like I'm not enough or too much. it's a very intimidating thing to say that you want to fall in love with somebody. And when you're saying that I want you to fall in love with you,

it's also kind of saying I want you to fall in love with me. And so Kitty Pool was kind of capturing that process. But I wrote that song, the same person I wrote ABC about. So there's like a range of emotions. Like I'm literally being like, I'm in love with you. I love you so much. You're amazing. I want every single part of you.

And then I'm like, fuck you and your mom and your sister and your job. I'm like, you know, because even for ABC to happen, like, I had to love that person so much to even have the possibility of being that angry at them. And then I have another song called Sleeping with My Friends, and I feel like it's almost like the prequel for you're just horny. Like, I went through this point and period of my life, like, where I was just going through the motions and then specifically even just like sexually I just was. And so I just did things that sometimes I was like, why did I do that? And then there's one specific instance where, like, I crossed the line on a friendship. And they just started treating me differently afterwards. And, like, I just really felt like I fucked up a friendship, like, bad.

And it just, like, hurt me so badly. Like, I was so hurt and I was so sad over it. And then I got really mad about it. And so, like, sleeping with my friends was the point where I was like, I felt like it was my fault. Like, I was self-destructive. I was romanticizing things. I was seeing things that weren't actually this. there. And then like with you're just horny, I was like, no, you kind of like also took advantage

of our friendship to be able to do that. Like, yeah, I was kind of a trophy to you. And then the second you got it, I was less interesting. And maybe that's why you started treating me differently. Not that it was like all completely my fault. And I kind of had to go through that process, even like get to your just horny. And then I re-release, I'm re-releasing a song called C that I did in 2020. It's now coming out with a feature of Upsaw and Blue the Tiger, and I'm really excited about that because I absolutely adore and love those two artists, and I've loved them even before I put out ABC. And so it's just really, really excited. And I've now renamed the song EZ, where it's like E and dash Z. And then I have a song that's going to be the lead single. It's called Love Starved. And it's basically like I, and it's the first song that starts off the project because it kind of has a general. consensus of like my perspective and like why I do the things I do and it's like I don't know the difference between somebody actually loving me or just giving me attention or like I don't know if somebody's actually nice to me or if I just have low standards like I do not know how I should

be treated like I'm and I'm trying to learn like I don't know and I don't know what's the bare minimum or not like I literally don't know what to expect from people like if I get the bare minimum of people being nice to me. And they're so nice. And it's like, no, they're literally giving you the bare minimum. And, like, I don't know. And, like, I'm trying to learn. It's just, like, one of those things where, like, I can get so love starved.

Like, I don't know if they're actually being nice to me or just giving me the bare minimum. Or if they actually love me or if they're just giving me attention. And, like, that can be really difficult thing. And then somebody came into my life that I just didn't want to push away or be scared of that. And so that was just kind of what that sounds about. and it kind of just has the overall theme of the project. Are you currently in love? No, I'm not.

I mean, like, I have been single for, like, over a year, and it's been something that I feel like has been really healthy for me. And, you know, like, I, there's also times where it's, like, can I be creative when I'm, like, not with somebody? Or can I be creative when I'm happy with somebody? And I now really know that, like, I can do things by myself. And that's really nice to, like, know that. Did you write everything with Sarah Davis?

I did not. I wrote specifically with this project. I wrote a lot of stuff with Sarah Davis. So I wrote, you were just horny with her. I wrote ABC, D.EFU with her. I wrote Kitty Pool with her and I wrote Love Starved with her. But then sleeping with my friends and Z, I wrote without her. We're going to go to this next segment, five for five.

I'll list five things. And you just tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head. Let's do it. Let's start with. Let's start with Sarah Davis. She's your main collaborator. Work wife. Love of my life.

That's my girl. Pete Gambarg. Oh, Papa Pete. That's what I call him to make him less scary to me. That's funny. Aretha Franklin. Oh, Idle. She's an idol.

That's the first, like, that or icon is, like, the first two words that pop into my head. Kara DiGuard. party? Car bear. She probably kill me for saying that out loud, but I call her care bear. Again, make her less scary. Your mom. My mom, oh, oh gosh, my mom. There's so many things. Protect her. She protects me a lot. And like a supporter. She supports everything I do. And she tries to protect me from all the people who tell me I can't do it. So, very grateful for her. well thank you for doing this podcast I've said a lot of things already

but you're obviously a very smart woman and you don't really have to be protected too much because I think the minute people actually listen to you and they pay attention to how eloquent you are not just in the way you speak in a conversation but also in the way that you write lyric twist, you know, clearly you come from a school where you respect

songwriters and songwriting and the art form of it. And I think you're coming at this whole industry with a really healthy perspective. And I get the feeling we'll be having a lot of these conversations over the next couple years. But this is a really good first one. So thank you. Thank you so much. This is actually genuinely a dream come true to be doing this.

cannot tell you how many times I've imagined to be on this podcast. So it truly is an honor. And I hope to be seeing you and having more conversations with you again. Thank you for having. Perfect. There you go. This episode is produced by Joe London, hypnosis, mega house management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.