And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 152: HARDY

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

Today’s heavy hitter guest broke out with critically acclaimed 2020 debut album, A ROCK, “an album that owes as much to AC/DC as George Jones” and “one of the most self-assured full-length debut albums in years'' (Billboard). The project joins countrified mixtape HIXTAPE VOL. 1 and most-recent HIXTAPE VOL. 2, as well as career-launching EPs THIS OLE BOY and WHERE TO FIND ME. HARDY is the 2022 ACM Songwriter of the Year and two-time AIMP Songwriter of the Year, additionally nominated for New Artist of the Year at the 2021 CMA Awards. One of CRS’ 2021 New Faces of Country Music, a CMA Triple Play award recipient and a Vevo DSCVR artist, the pride of Philadelphia, Miss. has earned his reputation as "a breakout in the making" (HITS). HARDY has co-penned 11 #1 singles since 2018, including his own chart-topping, double platinum-certified single “ONE BEER” feat. Lauren Alaina + Devin Dawson, and most-recent #1 alongside Dierks Bentley and BRELAND, “Beers On Me.” Current Top 10 hit “GIVE HEAVEN SOME HELL” is a hard-charged tribute to a fallen friend, the most-added single of the week at country radio upon launch. Serving as direct support on Morgan Wallen's Dangerous Tour now, he has also opened for Jason Aldean, FGL, Chris Lane, Thomas Rhett, Cole Swindell and more.. And The Writer Is… HARDY!Watercolor by: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Welcome to Am the Update is. I'm your host, Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update. Snapchat has signed onto a multi-year deal with Live Nation. Snapchat stated that the partnership will elevate performances beyond stages and screens through custom-built immersive augmented reality.

The weekend has signed a publishing pact with Universal Music Group, which comes as his contract with Cobalt reaches its end. Brian Ken has been promoted to vice president of media at Republic Records. Targa Sahun and Nick Steinhart have been named Senior Vice President of Creative at Capital Records. Sahun will lead overseeing music video and visual content production and Steinhardt with art direction for Capitol's full roster of artists. Spotify has seen a slowdown in premium subscriber growth since the results of quarter one and credits part of the slow numbers to the withdrawal from Russia. Lizzo is making her Metaverse performance debut during the second annual Songbreaker Awards,

which will be the first award show on Roblox. Jackie Winkler, who played a major role in the signing and A&R of Lauren Spencer Smith, has been advanced to vice president of A&R at Island Records. Warner Music Group has launched its own in-house podcast network called Interval Presents. The new network will produce multi-format culture-forward audio content at the intersection of music, pop culture, and social impact. Canadian twin sister duo Tegan and Sarah have signed to mom and pop music, which follows them closing out a previous record deal with Warner Records.

Glenn Medlinger has been promoted to EVP of Republic Records and President of Imperial Music, which was launched by Republic in September of 2021. Sony Music Publishing has promoted Nick Brawl to vice president of Creative. Harry Style single as it was. was is heading for its fourth week at the top of the almost unmoving singles top 10 chart. Nancy Liu has been named president of the Digital Marketing Agency 740 Project, which is a partnership with Capital Music Group. BMG has acquired stake in Primal Scream's song catalog.

A big thank you to Hannah Rosenberg of Megahouse for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne the Writer is. Welcome to And The Writer is. host Ross Golan. Today's country rock star is Nashville's new songwriting superstar. He has already penned hits for icons like Florida Georgia Line, Chris Lane, Morgan Wall and Blake Shelton, and not hyperbolicly many, many more. His prolific and prodigious talent is hard to keep up with because his artist's career is blazing too. The lead single off his most recent album, One Beer, featuring Lauren Elena and Devin Dawson is a three-time ACM nominee.

And he personally has garnered over 685 million career on demand streams. I'm sure it's more since I started reading this intro. All the way from Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Mississippi, that is. This guy is winning the hearts of the entire songwriting community. And the writer is Michael Hardy, aka just Hardy. What's up, man? Hey, man. Dude, everybody talks about you.

Do they? Is that a thing? I think so. I mean, I feel like anytime someone talks about, you know, country, Nashville, anybody who's, you know, it's like they either want to get in with you or they know, you know, it's like people who know you in the business, love you. And, you know, you didn't just, like, show up out of nowhere. It's not like you're not 14 years old. So I kind of want to tell you,

I kind of want to tell your path a little bit. Yeah, man. Let's start from the beginning, man. Philadelphia. Yeah. Philadelphia, Mississippi is like a small town. It's probably 8,000 people. I grew up like just playing sports

and just being a kid, you know. Like what sports? And I play baseball and golf in high school. school. Oh, interesting. But I just, I hunted and fished my whole life and, and I wasn't super into music. My sister was actually, she still is, but she was like the singer and kind of the star child of the family.

And so at a young age, like she was the one that was like doing singing competitions and stuff like that. So growing up, I didn't really touch a guitar until I was 16 or 17 years old and just kind of realized I had like a little bit of. of a thing too. I just never like never followed her uh I never did like the music thing because that was like her thing you know and I just that kind of it just sort of catches shadow on on on on that for me just because I was like okay well that's her thing what's my thing you know and never I didn't really consider it to be music for a long time. Do you think your family encouraged the kids to do

separate things or do you think that's just sort of when you grew up and your siblings doing something you kind of want to do either exactly what they're doing or the exact opposite. I think my parents never forced like making or singing music on me at all. So I would think that they definitely encouraged me to do different, different things. I mean, I think that we all just assumed that I didn't, I was not musically inclined and that my sister was. I mean, that's just, I think that was the general consensus with the whole family, you know, until I was 17 or 18.

What kind of music did you have in the house? Really, I mean, for myself, it was mostly rock and roll and, like, pop music and, and honestly, just a lot of rock and roll. Aerosmith, I got the Aerosmith big ones record, you know, all the big songs or whatever. That was a huge record growing up when I was like a kid, my family and so we

listen to that a lot and you know my mom and my sister would listen to Celine Dion and stuff like that but as far as me and my dad it was just a ton of rock and roll and I tried to get my hands on like as many rock and roll

CDs. What was the catalog they used to send you and you would pick out CDs and order? Well they had like Columbia House and they had what was the other one I don't think it was BMG It was like Columbia House and somebody else's going to hit us up on social media. But yeah, where you'd get like for $9, you'd get like 15 CDs.

Yeah, I remember my first one that my dad let me order was yourself or someone like you, Matchbox 20, and then Kiss Destroyer was I bought those two at the same time. And I was like the first two CDs I ever owned. I think if you look at the evolution of rock and roll in the U.S., you would think that, you know, after what you're talking about, Matchbox 20 and stuff, in a way so much of that world ends up becoming what a lot of country music is. Do you think that, because you didn't mention any country artists, do you think that that's why you ended up in Nashville? Definitely. I didn't listen to country until I was like 18 or 19. I always say I grew up country and did the whole small town thing, you know, but I did not listen to, I didn't care for country at all until I was older. So, I mean, there's no doubt that, you know, rock and roll was definitely the reason I moved to Nashville. I, when I moved, I didn't, I just wanted to be maybe like a songwriter or I don't really know.

I just kind of moved up there and just said, like, we'll see what happens. But, like, it was definitely, like, my love for rock and roll is the reason that I, you know, that's the reason I fell in love with music. And that's, so that's definitely what pushed me up there for sure. When did you first start? You said you were 16 when you started playing around on guitar? Yeah, 16 or 17, I started, like, I learned how to play a few chords, you know. And when I was 18, I wrote, I wrote, like, my first song.

What was that called? Caroline, I think. It was shit. Is Caroline somebody from Mississippi? No, some made-up story. About a girl, like I met this girl at the grocery store or something, and, and, uh, and, uh, I got her number, but I never saw her again. I went to go look for her, something like that. Do you remember how it goes?

I just remember the hook was like, uh, man, if I dug like a lot, I could probably find it, but I don't even know if I want to do that. The hook was like, I just want to introduce myself again. It was something like that. It wasn't country though. It was like kind of, it was just like really bad like Jack Johnsonish kind of thing. That was like that was my first like baby songwriter brain. That's like the, that's the vibe that I went for, you know.

You went to, um, to Middle Tennessee State, but that was, was that before or was that before you got to college? Was this something like post high school when you kind of feel like, you know, why? I guess a couple things happen, I think, with athletes in high school and I don't want to project. So, you know, I feel like a lot of times

it's like it's hard to really get into like the idea of being vulnerable and being a songwriter, you know? Is there a reason why you waited until after high school to write songs and not just play guitar? No, no, no, no. It just kind of happened.

And I moved. So I went to MTV. to do music. But no, I went to one year of junior college. And I started, I wrote a few songs there just for fun and like my buddies and stuff liked it. So, you know, they were kind of my little support group or whatever support system. And so I did it just for fun there.

And then those like little small batch of songs and like my friends like encouragement was, that was the reason that I moved. up there. And so I went to MTSU to study songwriting, basically. Yeah, I don't think people realize, so, you know, we always talk about Berkeley and USC and NYU and Belmont, and yet Middle Tennessee State turns out some pretty good songwriters. Yeah, I guess so, man. Luke Laird went there. Dave Haywood from Lady A went there, Chris Young. There's a few, there's actually, yeah, you're right, there's actually quite a handful now. I mean, you couldn't name, you know, I can imagine that we could go through a lot of much,

much bigger schools that don't have those four songwriters coming out of it. So something about that school is special. Yeah, it is. I mean, everybody kind of calls it the poor men's Belmont. So it's definitely, I mean, it's, as far as I know, I mean, it's kind of the only other competitive school in Nashville that has, like, that's turning. and out like hit you know hit writers and stuff yeah that's so crazy um when you started writing songs and you start playing it around your group of friends and you said you know it's your sisters she was the star in the family um you know it's like i always joke this is your story not mine but my my dad still he'll be like you know he's like i have two two professional singers in the in the family and i love

my sister and she's brilliant, you know, but she didn't pursue that as a profession. My dad just sees her as that, you know? So it's like an interesting thing. Like, how did your family deal with when you're like, well, I'm going to pursue music too? They were super supportive. Very supportive. You know, I mean, there was never a doubt. I called my mom actually and I just said, hey, I want to move to Nashville. And they were okay with it. And I did, I did follow, I didn't, I didn't mention that. I don't know if you know that part of my story, but my sister moved to Nashville and actually did go to Belmont and pursued a singing career for a minute. And she's the one when I was in college. She called me more or less one day and said, hey, I know you've been

writing some songs. And if you, you know, if you're trying to figure out kind of what you want to do, there's a thing up here called a publishing deal. And, you know, you can, you get paid to write songs. And she, at the time, she was doing the music thing too. So, but between her and my parents, like, they couldn't be more supportive. It was, it was, uh, I was very lucky because I hear a lot of stories of people who, whose parents maybe weren't as supportive, but mine definitely were. Were they musicians, too? My mom plays piano and sings and my dad, my dad just loves music and he can sing, you know, um, but he's not like, he never played an instrument or anything, but, but he, uh, he's, you know, he loves rock and roll and all kinds of music, but, um,

My mom is definitely musically inclined for sure. Moving to Nashville, having, you had just lived in Mississippi, right, at that point? Yeah. And, you know, your sister says, like, you know, you can get this thing called a publishing deal, which is like an amazing thing to just say to somebody, and you're like, all right, and then you go and you just get a publishing deal. It's kind of awesome. But when you moved up to Nashville, one, like, where did you move?

and, you know, what are those first, you show up to Nashville and somebody says you can get a publishing deal? That's one thing. But I think almost everybody who's listening to this who either got their publishing deal or wanted a publishing deal, like, there's no path that's normal. So you show up to Nashville and she's like, oh, you can get this publishing deal. How do you then get a publishing deal? Okay. So this is kind of a crazy story. So my dad, my dad was a chicken farmer for like 15 years. And when my sister moved to Nashville in 2007, he was ready to sell his farm. And he had been, he had had it for so long that he had paid it off. So, so, uh, You know, he had a lot of equity in the farm. And so he sold that farm and they paid off their vehicles and their house.

And they had some money left over. So they bought, they invested in a condo or an apartment in Nashville for my sister. And this was, you know, three or four years before I even, you know, thought about moving. And so when I moved, I moved, I moved in with my sister. That first summer and I worked at a golf course and I was in cart boys. I was just picking up golf carts and cleaning golf carts and taking them back and doing that whole thing. So then I start going. I moved to MTSU.

I get like a really small apartment there. I had a few jobs, you know, in and out. My parents, I'm very thankful. They helped me get through school. And, you know, I cut grass during the summer. I did stuff like that. but so my grandfather who's still alive and he lives in Philadelphia still. His mother was a Smith and she had a sister named Hildred and Hildred had a son named

Dennis and Dennis in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s was a hit songwriter. Really? Yeah, but Dennis. So Hildred married a man from New York City and they, They lived in New York and then they moved to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. So Dennis grew up in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and all of his mom's side of the family was in Philadelphia, Mississippi. And Dennis moved to L.A. in the 80s and he wrote Maniac. And that kind of started his career.

And he wrote, he had other pop hits in the 80s. And then he wrote like Red Light by David Nail. You'll Think of Me by Keith Urban. Like, he had some country hits as well. So I hadn't always known. Dennis and I had met him a couple times and knew who he was. I knew he lived in Nashville, but I didn't know what he was capable of or how he could help me at all. And I was putting out like just kind of original.

At that point, after a couple of years of being at MTSU, I'd kind of learned to write country songs. And I never really made a whole lot of friends or had a big social life in college. So I just kind of stayed locked in my room and I just sort of taught myself how to write songs. And so I would record those songs on my webcam with my little snowball mic, and I would put them on YouTube and, like, share them on my Facebook and all that stuff. And one day, Dennis out of the blue wrote on my Facebook wall and just said, hey, like, I see that you're writing songs and stuff. And, you know, I'd love to reach out and just see what I can do for you. And so I got his number and went over to his house and I played him like every song I'd ever written. It was like 15 songs.

And he told me, he said, you're not ready yet, but you'll be ready soon. I just want to work with you for about a year and, and, you know, see what's up. So about at the summer, so I had to take one more semester in the summer to graduate, and he had lined a publishing deal up for me. So I was super excited. And right when I graduate, I was kind of supposed to sign this deal and the deal fell through and one of the one of the companies kind of backed out and and and so he had to call me and just say dude I'm sorry but this

deal fell through and so a few months go by and I you know he just keeps telling me just keep writing songs and finally I wrote this song by myself called dog years and it was this perspective like from a dog and like and it was just like how the dog was like thankful you know, that this, his owner or whatever gave him a good life and all this. And then, of course, you know, the dog dies in the end. And anyway, and that song he took back to Cobalt and just said, hey, look, like, this kid, you know, wrote this by himself. I know he's young, but I think we should sign him. And so that is, that was my first publishing deal, was Dennis's company called Watsky Music.

And it was with Cobalt. So that was my first deal. And I still write for Dennis to this day. We've changed companies and switched a few things around, but I'm still with Dennis to this day. And we have a company now called Relative Music, and I'm a partner with him and his son, Jesse. That's amazing.

So what is the, you know, first of all, attainability is everything. If you know that it's possible, then you aim for it. So it's like that's an amazing thing to have in your family to see this is what excellence is. So then you aim for that excellence. So that makes sense. I guess before we get into the business stuff, when you're coming up with songs like dog years and you're doing, you know,

one of the things that, you know, your current team talks about behind your back is how prolific you are and how good you are at writing so many different concepts and whatnot. So I guess my, you know, are you learning that from listening to greats and being like, oh, you can write songs from any people, perspective or was this an actual something like you took a class and somebody said you know

you can write songs from a dog's perspective no no no it was definitely something that i picked up along the way the the songwriting class was like very basic and not it wasn't as like creative as it was like more like it was creative but it was it was like this is a commercial songwriting class so you either have to start with a verse or start with a chorus and make sure that things, you know, are, have hooks and they're repeatable. And, like, there was a lot more about melody instead of lyric. So, I hate saying this,

but I didn't get a whole lot out of the class, I don't think. It was kind of a lot of stuff that most people, I think, already knew if you just listened to the radio a little bit, you know? Yeah. So, I don't know. I think, honestly, the two people I think that inspired me the most to kind of you know make me realize that you can write things from different

perspectives was like early Brad Paisley stuff yeah and Eric Church those two definitely I just opened my eyes a lot man and and just kind of never been shut from that from that first kind of experience listen to those guys yeah Brad has like this incredible like there's nobody in any genre including you know

theater film anything nobody can write the perspectives that that guy can write I mean it's amazing it's amazing when you can I don't know I think I think the first time I really

started like diving in was after you know check you for ticks and being like that's it's just next level brilliant You know? Yeah. And then you start going down and you're like, oh, he is all of the songs.

Yeah, letter to me was like a huge. That was one of the first ones that I was like, damn, dude, that's good. Like, that's so different and cool. There were a lot. And then Eric Church had a song called Lightning. That was, it was from the perspective of a guy that was getting ready to, he was on a, he was, he, Eric was the character in the song, but he was sitting in a, like a, like a, electric chair because he had murdered somebody and it was just a really cool perspective song. I love that.

Murder ballads are always exciting. Yeah. I feel like, you know, that's all been put into a different genre these days, murder ballads, but can never get enough of good ones. Yeah. Why did you move on from your Cobalt situation with Dennis? What was the impetus to go and start moving to a different kind of publishing deal? Man, it was just time.

You know how that stuff goes. It was just we just needed something new. And business is business. And we're with Sony now with admin. And it was just a timing thing, man. And honestly, Dennis had more control over that situation than I did. We made the move before I became a partner. So he technically made that decision.

But man, it's just a business thing. What year? One of those things. What year was that that you did the Cobalt deal? That was from 2014. And then I, 2014 and then I resigned with Dennis in 2017. and then the switch was made this year actually. When, you know, 2014 to 2017, which is really when your first cut comes out,

you have to go, you know, you do this deal with Dennis and Cobalt, and it's got to be like, okay, cool, I'm a professional writer. But so far it seems like, you know, come to Nashville, you'll get a publishing deal and you go and like the deal falls through and whatever but then you get a deal pretty quickly it's still all really fast you know some people wait years and years and years and it still seems fast but three years from 2014 to 2017 for the tyler fire record like that's actually like kind of a long time what are you doing during those years in Nashville dude i was just writing my ass off man i wrote every day sometimes twice um Yeah, that was kind of a thing. A lot of people, I do a lot of interviews that people are like, man, you kind of came out of nowhere. And I was like, no, I didn't, dude.

I was in Nashville for eight years before I had my first song on the radio, like my first song on the radio that I heard on the radio. But yeah, the Tyler Fart thing, I think, was 2017, right? And then that song peaked at like 65. and then up down was after that. But my whole first deal, I didn't get a cut or single until the very, very end of it. And then the next year, the following year I had, I had a few, I had quite a few, everything kind of started happening after that.

Man, you just want to tell every writer, like, eight, you know, they say that 10 years, it takes 10 years to make an overnight success. And, you know, you spend eight years grinding. as a writer and it's um it's not it's not just to show people that you have the work ethic it's also because you probably became a better writer and more consistent over time and even though you thought probably songs from the beginning some of them might have been great and still should get cut but i'm sure like that so much of it is about batting average you know it's like if you can show up and write if you write a good song every 10 songs it's hard to find that one song but if you write a good

seven out of ten then you start having like a better shot at actually getting cuts and getting singles because still even if you write seven out of ten you know five of those are not going to be heard by the public

yeah you know and it's hard it's hard to explain to people you know how difficult those eight years of grinding is and 99% of successful writers had to do that most of them

aren't just like they showed up, they wrote a hit, and then they continually wrote hits. Maybe they got lucky, but like they're not doing it, you know, it takes years. Oh, definitely. I mean, I mean, I definitely think, you know, at the time I was frustrated, dude, like, you know, I was three years into my publishing deal. I never had a cut. I was, I was at the point where I was mad, you know, I was getting jaded a little bit. And I just did, you're right. I mean, I hadn't figured it out yet. And it just, you hit a stride, man, where you kind of figure it out. and then you start catching the attention of people who know what actual hit songs are and they're telling you their hits. And then that kind of gives you confidence and it also gives you more of a template to write from.

So you start writing more stuff like that and, you know, that snowball just keeps rolling down the hill. And then, you know, there's that thing too of where you start getting in the room with artists. that turns into a whole different thing and then your momentum is just kind of off to the races. But it definitely took time to figure it out, man. It's just something I didn't realize at the time. Once, you know, like the snowball starts, you get a song that's charting that peaks at number 65,

and it's like it couldn't have been higher. Do you know what I mean? At that moment, you're like, oh, my God, I got it. You know, I got a song. was there any one song that people, you know, before we get to Morgan Wallen and stuff, and before those other, the songs that really work, were there other songs along the way where everyone's like,

oh, man, that's the guy who wrote the Tyler Farr record within the industry? Were there, or was there like a, was it like, ah, that guy wrote Dog Gears, that song should have gotten cut, but it never did? Was there ever a song that you were like, man, that's the one that really opened the doors? Yeah, it wasn't Tyler Farr, though, it was up down. I mean, it was up down. I mean, the Tahr Fart thing was cool, but it didn't, I don't feel like it got a lot of attention in town.

Maybe a little bit, but it was more through just my little circle of publisher friends and like songwriter friends. But the updown was the song. That was the one that got the attention for sure. Yeah, so let's talk about that. I mean, there's one thing when you've been struggling for years and you're frustrated. And then it always seems like, half. Finally, it's like

it's easy. Like, oh, that was the song? Oh, I should have written that years ago, because how hard was that? You know? But a song like Updown so big, and it's with an artist, it really breaks, you know, kind of like a generational kind of

artist. You know, what was the experience of now actually seeing you know, what that's worth? Not financially, just in general. Oh, I mean, just as far as like helping break Morgan's career,

you mean, and my own? Yeah, I mean, it's really your own. I mean, I think when the songwriter, you know, it's fun to watch, you go along with the artist a little bit. So it's a, your, your careers end up becoming kind of intertwined when you're like, you know, so I don't know. It's just a, however you want to answer it. Yeah, I mean, dude, it was huge. And I didn't even know it at the time. Um, You know, when Seth England, who's now my manager, he heard, first he heard Brad Clausen, who's another co-writer on that song, whose dad is Rodney Claussen.

He heard Brad play that at QS Songwriter Festival, and then like the same day went to my writers round, and he heard me play it, and he was like, this is the song we want to cut for Morgan for his next single. And, you know, we were all like, holy shit. And because I was a big fan. I was a big fan of the way I talk and I just had heard some of his stuff and I was like, this kid's really good. But yeah, I mean, dude, that's the song that started at all. That was the song that started his and my relationship, which led to me writing, you know,

most of his first record and obviously having a few songs on this big record for him. And that song, you know, he, he collabed with FGL and that had a big reason for me, my relationship with them and so yeah I mean that was huge that was such a big huge door opening song for me it wasn't just my first hit it had there was a lot that went with that

yeah I mean your relationship with Big Loud is obviously intertwined with that too I assume like that just yeah totally I had already I had already been out on the road some with FGL writing but that that song kind of, that

opened the door is wide open for that whole big loud situation. There's no doubt about that. Well, that brings us to our next segment of what would Craig Wiseman ask Hardie on, and the writer is. And he asked a few questions for you. First, he says, what's that tattoo

on your wrist? What is that? What's that tattoo of a wristband? Oh, that's what it is. What's that tattoo of a wristband and that you have, and why do you have it? Dude, so I have this crazy county Fair where I'm from. I'm actually playing it next week for the first time, which is really cool. But it's a, it's so, it's, it's just like a festival wristband. But, uh, man, it's a really

cool county fair. There's like a thousand of these like family-owned cabins out in the middle of the country, like, and it's like a ghost town for like an entire year, but for like one week out of the year, like the entire town and people from all over, they move into their, their cabins. And it's not like Gatlinburg cabins. They're like these tall and skinny, like crazy color, strong with lights. And it's just like a big party. And it's just like this huge neighborhood. And everything else is like a county fair, but you stay there. And people are just drinking beer the whole time. And it's just one of the coolest things in America, I think. And so I got the wristband permanently tattooed on my wrist. It's amazing. He also,

he asked a bunch of questions. So I'm just going to go through it. Why not? He says, What are some of your teenage jobs that made a crazy music career seem appealing? One of my favorite jobs was I worked for the cemetery department slash animal control because our town was really small. So I was cutting cemeteries and digging graves. And then like when it was raining or like if the graph, it got too hot in the grass like fried out, we would just go chase stray dogs through like town and shoot them with trinkleizer darts and then put them in the dog pound. So if I wasn't digging graves, I was shooting dogs with tranquilizer darts.

That was definitely the hardest working job. That definitely like I was like, I love this job, but I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. Unbelievable. And then his last, like that's like hard. to conceptualize that job because that's not even something. You know, it's not like if you live in a major city,

that's not an occupation you can even do. Yeah, no, definitely not. And then he asked how long before you drop a triple album because you're the most prolific writer in a decade. I think I could definitely do it.

It's probably just a matter of time, but I would love to. So he was serious, He was serious and you're serious too. Is there something you guys have really discussed? Because, I mean, you've gone from, like, you know, mixtape to an album is really, like, it's a big jump. But, I mean, why not?

I don't, I'm not opposed to it, man. I mean, I have, I'm always, like, sitting on a lot of songs that I would cut. And so you never know. We'll see. The last thing he said that we can wait. you don't have to play it or anything, but he just said that you have a new song that haunts them because we also were texting for like a half hour this morning.

So it was a long conversation, but he just said, wait in the truck is songwriter. He said he called it songwriter crack. Yeah, it's pretty special. I have to send it to you because we're not, that one's not coming out yet. Yeah, I asked him. I was like, can I even ask about it? He goes, yeah, man, we're not that kind of label. You can ask whatever you want. So, I mean, you can take it up. No, it's fine. It's totally fine. Yeah, it's something that I haven't put out yet. But it's the best song I've ever written. Damn. Oh, please send it. I want to hear it.

I will. Okay, so you start writing hits for people. It's now becoming something where you're kind of probably, I don't want to say you're used to it, but do you start thinking. it's easy? No, it's still not easy. I think when you, I think if I get in the room with an artist, it's easier than than just trying to get cuts with your buddies or the people that you write with. Because I think a lot of the artists that you write with and a lot, a lot of the, when they come into the room, they just want to write like a hit and a song that sounds like the radio.

and I think it's easier to just get a good radio song with an artist in the room just because that incentivizes them to cut it more. But it's still, man, it's still hard to get cuts. If you're not in the room with somebody, you know, Coleswindale or freaking whoever, dude, you know, I'm just trying to think of guys that just put out just hits, you know, Dustin Lynch or any of those guys, man, pretty much any artists. If you're not in the room with them, it still is it can be tough uh you still have their phone numbers and you can send send them songs and

stuff but um i don't get i still don't get like a ton of cuts uh if there's not like an artist in the room so it's i mean it's it's still hard to get songs cut and then it's hard to get them on the radio you know i think it'll always be like that i definitely don't want to start thinking it's too easy or you know i feel like you lose your drive a little bit. Yeah, and I think you said a lot of things there that are truths that are hard to swallow if you can't get in the room with artists.

You know, it's really hard to get cuts if you're not with an artist. And, you know, one of the things I tell my writers is when they can't get in the room with an artist is that I still think ideas are worth a lot. So if you write with people and then you can at least bring in the idea, and, you know, there are a lot of people

who are really savvy with the way that they, you know, I just wrote this song yesterday, even though it's seven years old. And it's like, because it just happens to fit the artist that they're in with tomorrow. You know, it's like that catalog can be valuable if they can,

you know, if they can be savvy about who they split it with and share it with, you know? Yeah, totally. But you do a lot of songs there where you don't co-write, and I really respect that in an era where there are so many writers, who are afraid to spend the time to write by themselves.

How long, you know, like Rednecker, I believe that's one where you just had producers, right? I think you just... No, no, no, no. That was with two other writers. That's with two other writers. But I feel like you had a couple of that I can't remember which ones where it was like you wrote it, you know? Like, are you still writing, or are you write with like one other person? You're not necessarily...

Maybe it's because it's like the... You see the back of some of these songs and they've got like eight writers on them. Oh, yeah. And countries really kind of like starting to lean into that sometimes on some of their artists where they have so many writers, especially when you start adding in features and shit like that. You know, but like you still seem to write with a small group of people on most of the songs that you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely do, man. Hunter Phelps, who's also one of my best friends, we write a lot together.

and a lot of times, like, we'll start stuff and then, you know, these days, man, I like to start stuff and then, like, bring it into a producer-writer. You know, I don't mind, I don't mind splitting the royalties if it's going to help the song get better. And, you know, these days, man, I feel like it's just so much easier to get something started and then bring it to another creative, mind that can really bring it to life as opposed to pitching around an acoustic work tape for years to try to get it cut when it's not translating the way that it should. And my personal opinion on that is that that producer, writer or track guys, people like to say, deserves a piece of that pie because they, more times than not, were a huge reason why the song got cut and, you know, a huge reason behind what would turn into the production, inspiration,

and all of that kind of stuff. But I do start a lot of stuff with people and then bring it in later. Like, ain't a bad day. I wrote like the verse and chorus. It's a song that was on my record. Like I had the verse and the chorus written. And then pretty much minus maybe a line. And then I brought that into Hunter Phelps and Jake Mitchell and Jake does the rock thing really good.

So he really brought like the track to life, you know. So that's kind of where I stand on that whole thing. you know the morgan wallin album after you know you 2018 is really like everything showed up like you're you're done on the right like the kid with potential now you're like a guy who writes hits and writes with hit writers um and you experience all that the beginning of the rise with morgan but then it's like that i feel like the song that that really changes in a way the narrative is something like God's Country where you have

such like a classic country artist cutting a record. It's so big, but it's not like the you know, it shows that you can play in different kinds of genres within the bigger genre of country. You know, what, how is it different for you to have a song

with, you know, a sort of a classic artist like Blake versus the new artist like Morgan? Oh man, it's huge. I mean, yeah, a completely different feeling as far as like the, you know, the euphoria behind having a hit. Way more surreal and just more, not that I'm not honored to have songs with Morgan or any of my buddies, but like just way more like grateful and honored. And yeah, it was just different, man.

And especially God's country because that song was so different for him. And I've always said, like, because a lot of people ask me why I didn't record that song. And I just think it sounds like, if I did it, it just sounds like another Hardy song. Like, that's just like the thing that I do. But like for Blake to do it, I think the reason it was so big is because it was so anthemic for him and so different for him that, you know, that's the reason that it was so big. But, yeah, I mean, that song, I was just super grateful for that one, man. That was such a cool run and still a really big part in our set. and I still hear it on the radio all the time.

So really thankful for that one. What about, all right, so one beer comes out, and it's the thing that goes from, like, everyone knew you had this potential. Everyone was sort of banking on it, at least people that I know who would talk about you, but there's something different when a song actually sort of achieves like a certain level.

And, you know, also, like, you're, you're treating country music differently than a lot of other country artists. So, you know, you've now written hits for a lot of people and you had, you had your single, you'd had stuff, but this is different. This is a different thing when you're the artist. How does it compare to being a writer when you're, you know, versus being the artist? I mean, it's completely different. I don't know. That's a tough, that's a tough one, because it feels different, man, like, especially, like, just everything that goes into a song, turning, you know, turning into a hit or being a number one and seeing, kind of seeing how all that goes down.

But it's just different, man. I don't know. It's, it's harder to get a grasp on, you know, like, especially for me, because, like, I moved to town to be a songwriter, more or less. and so like to have a number one as an artist I guess is a little bit harder to process for me just because it it was I don't know man it was it was like never just in the back it was never in the back of my mind to be an artist I mean it maybe it was somewhere deep down in there but um I don't know it's just you you think and you pray for so long that you'll have hits as a writer and and I just never never never never really thought that I would have one as a singer. So it's just different. I don't know. I feel like that's a terrible answer, but it's pretty much all I got. No, I like that. I think in the end when we're 70 and we do this interview then, and we look back,

it'll be hard not to look at 2019 as a year that went from, like, yeah, you had been a writer. And just when you thought you couldn't reach new peaks, you have number one, as an artist plus number ones as a writer you know simple is a big record i'm sure that there were other number ones that year um but like that the idea of ringing the bell multiple times as a writer and as an artist plus you're doing it with like like devon and loren are amazing cool people and like you're experiencing all of it with such good people you're surrounded by good people i also feel like a lot of people in the business have like don't have the luck where they end up in sessions with like, or they end up in relationships where they complain about like,

oh, my publisher sucks or my label sucks or my, my, the single didn't work, that this didn't work. And it feels like you've surrounded yourself with such good people. Is that because of you? Is that because of your manager? Is that luck? What, what? I think it's, I think it's luck for sure. I think about that a lot, man. I've never had any, really any music business relationship that I, that I, that I, have been miserable in ever. And I think it's luck. I also think, though, that I'm really careful about who I, like, let in or who I trust. And I really think about the decisions that I make and stuff.

And I think that has a lot to do with it, too, just kind of being cautious. But, dude, I mean, you're right. And also, like, there's this new crew coming up that's, I really truly feel like we all know each other and like like there's so many artists and writers and just people that I would legit call tomorrow because they're my friend and go have a beer or something with them. You know what I mean? So like everybody's rooting for each other and like just there's a new it's just these a bunch of young people and we're all just coming up together and we're all just proud and we're rooting for each other and thank very thankful and and it's a lot different

than when I moved to town, but I just think this new wave is a really good, a wave of good people. After the pandemic started, it obviously came as kind of a shitty time as far as like all the touring artists and all the people who, I mean, the whole world has been shit, but they, you know, you had such an amazing 2019. And beginning of 2020, you even end up with like a Diplo record with, you know, Diplo and Cam. How did you deal with the world kind of coming to a halt, sort of right as you hit a new peak? Yeah. Well, as an artist, from the artist side, it was tough, man. I definitely went through some shit for a little bit. I think just trying to process everything coming to an end.

And that part was tricky because, you know, we had, as an artist, like, started really selling out shows and, like, having big shows and, like, we were doing it, you know, and our band was awesome and our show was awesome. And then suddenly, like, I'm having to call my bus driver and telling him that I can't, I can't pay him, you know, and my band guys are, like, having to drive Uber and Lyft. And that part just really kind of tore me up. And just I kind of lost that. You know, I felt like I got fired from a job or I lost a little bit of my life because, you know,

there was, I physically could do nothing about it. But from the songwriter side, man, it was awesome. I wrote a lot last year. And I finished writing my record last year, you know, and we cut pretty much the whole record throughout COVID, throughout the pandemic. I mean, I developed a ton of relationships as a writer during the pandemic. So that part, man, was like a blessing in disguise because I feel like I'm about to have another kind of a big run as a songwriter again. And that is all because of having the time off to be able to develop new relationships and write songs.

Yeah, and you also became kind of a Zoom warrior from what I can tell. Like, didn't you write a lot over Zoom? And you didn't seem to care a whole lot. No, no, it doesn't bother me at all. I honestly prefer it sometimes. I just think it's streamlined. And once you can kind of get rid of that, break that barrier of the screen, and to me it's exactly like sitting in the room with somebody.

It's not very different at all. Yeah, man, you tell me when and where. I'm like, I love Zoom. I just think it's so efficient. And I'm like, I get it. I miss going and getting lunch. with the people I'm writing with. And it's like, I almost would rather write on Zoom and then go get dinner with the people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, like, we all have our studios. We all have our, like, I've got like 30 guitars behind me. Like, I want to, you know, I want to play. It's a different when you're playing at home versus in the studio. But you have to be with the right kind of writer to do it. Yeah, I think so. And some people can't stand it.

Some people love it. But I love it. I would still do it today. And I do it from the road. and it's awesome. It kind of has changed the game for a lot of people. Yeah, speaking of Zoom Warriors, it's Cameron Montgomery's birthday.

And he's the first time I heard about you through Cam, who's brilliant. And he also asked a question. I said, well, what question do you have for Ann the Writers? And so his segment, he says that I should ask you if you still have time to collect arrowheads between all the hits. Oh, wow. Yeah, I do, man. When I'm home, that's, I mean, I was, I yesterday was like I can't wait to get back and get on my boat and just ride around and find arrowheads.

Yeah, that's a big hobby of mine. I just go to different places where I know they are and just find them. But yeah, I still get to do it all the time when I'm home. So those are arrowheads as in like, you know, as in like 200-year-old arrowheads, right? No, they're older than that, man. A lot of people think that they're 200 years old, but they're actually, most of them are thousands of years old. Wow.

In theory, you've got to think that Native Americans were here for 10 to 12,000 years. And sorry, my computer went weird again. So in theory, they've been here for, you know, 10 to 12,000 years. and so they're everywhere and they're old man you just they're it's a whole they have like a whole a whole process or how they date them and all that stuff and like they're at they're older they're like more well made than they look different and if they're newer they're you know the opposite and and uh you just kind of have to be a nerd about that stuff to know to know the whole thing but uh

yeah they're out there man and i love finding them yeah i the history of uh you know i guess 200 years ago sort of Andrew Jackson and pushing Native Americans westward and probably going through Mississippi. I'm sure that they were all there before that. So I think I was assuming that like that they come from like a war-torn country from that point. It's fascinating to think that you're finding these ones that are a thousand years old or 800 years old or whatever. Yeah, dude, there's some that are like 8,000 years old that I have. That's crazy. Do you have them on a wall and stuff?

Say it again. Do you have them on your wall or do you display them in a certain way? Yeah, yeah. I have them at my house in cases and stuff. I mean, I have hundreds of them, man. It's a big hobby of mine. I love it. I kind of want to hear more on that, but we'll do that.

We'll sidebar. I just want to give a shout out also to a recent song you wrote that I think is pretty brilliant. the worst country song of all time. It's like the kind of song that it's very Brad Paisley in that concept in a lot of ways, but it's the fact that

that song can be written and then released is just awesome. That's awesome, man. I appreciate it. I love that song, man. It's so very clever. Thank you, ma'am. So you're on a bus right now. Where are you?

We are in Twin Lakes, Wisconsin. Oh, nice. Nice. Joe London is from Milwaukee, and I'm from all the way north of Illinois, like pretty close to the border. Right on. Yeah.

We know our Wisconsin. Go bucks. All right. So our last segment is a five for five. I'm going to list five things, and you just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Let's start with Madison, your sister.

The first thing that comes off the top of my head? Yeah. Her kids, her niece and nephew. Or my niece and nephew, excuse me. That's cool. Yeah. Let's go with Dennis. Maniac.

Let's go with Morgan Wallen. Partying. Let's go with Joey Moy. Rock and roll. And finally, let's go Craig Wiseman. Legend. I mean, no doubt. That's the first thing that comes to mind.

Well, congratulations on everything. Thanks for doing the podcast, man. I feel like this is something we should just do annually and catch in because you have so much stuff that gets released so regularly. I would love to, man. But, you know, it's like they're... They're just, you root for people in the business that your friends are rooting for. And I feel like there's, in an industry where everyone is so envious, it's hard to get people to, you know, to almost unilaterally have everyone say like,

oh, no, no, no, he's great, he's so nice, or he's so prolific. Or he's so, the way you interact with people is so positive. that, you know, behind your back there's a story being written that you'd want to read, you know what I mean? I just, you know, no one really talks about that. I definitely have done some interviews. There was one interview that we won't be releasing, but where the guy got really kind of offended

when he had sort of a negative, reputation. I was like, well, you know, like you have a, you know, people talk behind your bag. He's like, ah, people don't, you know, you expect me to know, uh, you expect me to know what people say behind my back. And I was like, um, no, I'll just, you know, you kind of want to tell people what people say behind their back, because that's really like what the legacy that they're leaving. Yeah, dude. And you're, I mean, that's a good point. You're just leaving like a really good legacy and you're just starting. Damn, I want to, is this a country writer?

No, I'll, I'll, we'll also side-bye. Tell me when we're off the air. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, you're just, you're earning it, man. You're just earning it. You're out there hustling and you're writing and you're just, you're doing it. And you should just be proud of yourself and thanks for doing the podcast, man. Dude, thank you, man.

I appreciate it. And I've known about this podcast for a long time, dude. So I was, when I got the news, you wanted me to be on it, I was, I was pumped, man. Seriously. Sick. There you go. Awesome. This episode is produced by Joe London, hypnosis, mega house management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein.

See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.