And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 153: Luke Steele

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

With his countless musical ventures, today’s guest has defined the term reinvention. In collaborating with some of the world's largest artists to date, he has paved the way for unique creativity. From being the frontman of alternative rock band, The Sleepy Jackson to half of electronic music duo Empire of the Sun, after 20 years of music making, he now emerges with a mystic, domestic wisdom on the comparatively unadorned and transportive new debut solo album, Listen To The Water. He has always taken the road less traveled, and now that road has led to a secluded cabin on a private lake in Northern California, and the birth of a new chapter of music. “I have hard-wired myself to be in a constant state of ever-grow. I will never be satisfied. You don’t make a record for no-one to hear. I want people to be captivated by it. In a way it’s a life story. You want them to hear the mistakes, the wisdom, the failure but also the glory”, our guest reflects. And The Writer Is… Luke Steele!Watercolor by: Michael Richey White  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey, what's up? It's Paige MacDonald and this is your weekly music industry update. BMG chief operating officer Benjamin Kadovsky has left his position at the company.

U.S. indie label Ghostly International and secretly have formed a new company called All Flowers Group, which will be the parent company of Ghostly and the newly launched hip-hop and R&B label, Drink Some Water. The independent record label and creative agency Big Sources, Big Sources, Kids has signed onto a joint venture deal with Warner Music Group's label and Artist Services Arm ADA Worldwide. The chain smokers will become the first major label artist to share royalties for an entire album for free via NFT platform Royal. YouTube's quarter one revenue was more than double what Spotify made across its

business in their quarter one. Brandon Silverstein's S-10 films has signed a partnership with Simon Fuller that will quote, develop new entertainment content to together. Snapchat's owner has been sued by the Swiss Collection Society for, quote, refusing to pay authors and publishers for music on its platform. So Nos is officially launching its own voice assistant, which will provide fast, accurate hands-free control of your music. Distillor Music Group has signed onto a global publishing deal with downtown music services. The New York-based stock content firm, Shutterstock, has acquired Pond 5, which claims to be the world's largest online marketplace for

royalty-free and editorial video. Primary Wave has bought Bob Dylan's share of this supergroup, The Traveling Wilburys. Universal Music Group's Web3 label 1022 p.m. is launching a virtual world for its bored ape NFT band, Kingship. 1022 p.m. will also be releasing 10,000 of what it calls access-enabled key cards in the form of NFTs. Warner Music Spain and Warner Chapel Music have launched a new and creative hub in Madrid, Spain, called the Music Station. Amazon Music has named Laura Lucan's head of music industry, UK, Australia, and New Zealand.

Christina Chavez has been named Vice President of ANR at Universal Music Publishing Group. Reservoir and Pop Arabia have acquired Egyptian record label 100 copies. Chris Blackwell has been promoted to Executive Vice President of ANR and Content Strategy at Republic Records. Multimedia music has acquired the master and publishing rights to a 48 title film score catalog from Atlantic Screen Music. The management company 360 has joined a partnership with New York-based talent company, Frontline Entertainment.

The music distribution platform, DistroKit, is entering into the music video market with the launch of Distrovid. Bad Bunny has become Spotify's all-time most streamed artist's global. on its platform in a single day with 183 million Spotify streams in 24 hours. A big thank you to Hannah Rosenberg of Mega House for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne the Writer Is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's multi-hyphenated music guru has defined the term reinvention with his countless

creative ventures. He has influenced scores of musicians with his unique, and collaborated with some of the world's biggest artist because of it. This frontman of Sleepy Jackson went on to behalf of the eponymous Empire of the Sun, solidifying his status as alt-rock and electronic royalty. And now, after 20 years of music making, he's emerged with his mystic wisdom on his new solo album. This Kiwi has reached the ears of people across the world spanning all the genres, always fun to write with this guy and I'm excited for you all to meet him

and the writer is Empire the Sun Frontman Luke Steele And that crowd goes wild Ross You're going to be my new Right Hand man MC at the shows Come on, that was outstanding I sound like I know what I'm doing

I mean exactly That's what you should do Especially for the solo like Now that you're doing the solo thing You should just take that You'll take that clip and you could have like the lights pulse and maybe do a remix around it. Have you on the screen?

Golden huge. That's great. It's great to be here, man. Great to be talking to you. It's been a while since we caught up when we wrote those hit songs that we're waiting for someone to record. Yeah, I feel like that's, I guess we should give a little background before we go into your story. But we actually wrote over quarantine. And on Zoom, you were like one of the first people that I feel like I wrote a song that I like on Zoom.

Did you end up liking working on Zoom's? Did you like quarantine? I did, you know, because I guess I've been in L.A. for the last 10 years. And, you know, L.A. when someone goes, let's do a session in Hollywood, you know, I'd live down at the beach and it would take me, you know, six hours to get there. And, you know, 30 Red Bulls later. and by the time you start to work, you just want to go home and have a wine. So I love the Zoom writing. You know, you jump on, you get straight to it, and then you leave, you know.

You did this whole solo album during quarantine. Is that when you wrote all of it? I started it right before, right before the pandemic hit. I was riding and I went down to Nashville and did a riding trip. and did some pedal steel on some. And actually, when I was coming back, when was it March, when that date happened, it was, I noticed something was going on because, oh, on the news everywhere,

I went to get some hand sanitiser and all that, and then I'd go on the plane, the guy was wiping all the seats. So, yeah, literally when I got back to L.A. after that, it went into lockdown. So, yeah, it was cool. I got to finish it, you know. It wasn't cool what happened, but, yeah. It was good that I could focus and do it.

The first time that I, and I think I mentioned this to you when we were writing a few months back, but the first time that I met you, I know you don't remember because it would be weird if you did, but you were playing at what was the venue. It was in L.A. and it closed, but it was when you were in Sleepy Jackson, and it was one of those things where I want to say Mars Volta played on a show with you guys or something like that it was like this era of all this really good music

when 103.1 was like the radio station in L.A. where there were people championing real band music and I guess it's this thing where it's with a band like the Sleepy Jackson, I wasn't the first person to sort of fall in love with your work through that band. But I kind of want to go back to the beginning of your story and lead up to the Sleepy Jackson. But I just think it's cool when you see somebody who's a frontman of a band at a show and then later work with them 10, 15 years later or something like that.

Because you've been at this for a long time. So I just said, you know, welcome to the, welcome to the podcast, man. Yeah, no, thank you. That was the Trooper dora, I think you mentioned when we're writing. Yeah, I might have been the troubadora. I think, I'll remember it later. But, okay, so let's go back to the beginning. Auckland, New Zealand, it actually is like the kind of,

it's the kind of place that people go to break music. People release music in New Zealand and Australia to see how it reacts to the rest of the world. Why Auckland? So I was born there, but when I was really young, I moved to Perth. So, yeah, I mainly grew up in Perth, but we do actually have a place on the Coromander

and head back there quite a bit. So I've sort of become, you know, getting back to New Zealand a fair bit. now. Why I guess why is why does music out of New Zealand and Australia affect

the rest of the world? What is it about people who live in that region and new music? Well, for me, growing up in Perth, it's known as the most isolated city in the world from distance to next

capiter and, you know, it really is quite far away and quite small. And when I was in school, you know, I kind of spent a lot of the weekends, you know, with the four track, trying to remake the White Album and stuff like that and just realizing that I had to make something good to actually escape and get out. Did your parents do music? Yeah, so my father's a blues musician. He's still playing.

So I kind of, he's still the president of the blues club there. He has been for about 30 years. So I kind of grew up in a blues club. And, yeah, that was a great, great beginning, you know, because every Tuesday I'd be there. And then, you know, 30 or 40 old blues mezos would come back and, you know, teach your chords and tell your stories and stuff. But yeah, I basically saw, like I had to write some good songs

to get out of the isolation and see the world. Yeah, I mean, people who don't know what Perth is, Australia is almost the size of the United States, and Perth is the one city on the West Coast that anybody lives in. And there's nothing between the West Coast and the East Coast. You know, it's really isolated. Why does your family end up in Perth? Yeah, yeah. My dad just had to get out of Auckland and just, yeah, just sort of did a wildest. one-way flight and ended up there. I think he had some gigs planned at the concert hall or something. I think he was playing Neil Diamond covers and JJ Cale and stuff. So he lobbed there and my mum was working at the bar there and then they met and he never left.

You have siblings that are all into music too. Tell me about your family like that. Yeah, so my older brother, he was the original drummer or Sleepy Jackson. So we spent a lot of years cheering together, you know, like just in the L-300 Mitsubishi Mitsubishi van with the PA in the back. Always the greatest memories, you know, I always laugh about that because once you get older, it just gets too professional, you know. So, yeah, he was the drummer for a few years, and my sister is Katie.

She's an incredible songwriter, and her first big band was a band called Little Birdie, and they kind of went pretty big. around Australia, New Zealand. And then her twin, Jake, is an electronic kind of, what is it? It's like hardcore trap, kind of, he does a bit of house music. He's, yeah, a pretty crazy electronic producer. So, yeah, there's a good kind of mix, you know, between all the kids. Do you guys have a text chain where you send songs?

Yeah, it's starting to get a bit like that. you know, yeah, drop box things and things but yeah, we should do more really kind of combine this sort of dark trap music with Beach Boys harmonies and Katie's like syrupy voice could be something good. I mean, it could be sort of Bee Gees-esque or something

so like all their voices ended up being so close because they were actually related, you know? Like maybe there's something in there. Yeah. When you start, you played music before Sleepy Jep. Jackson, you know, like you were already 18 when Sleepy Jackson started. What was the moment where you were like, oh, this is a profession and this isn't just fun? Like you were saying, all your good memories when you think before it gets professional,

when was that moment where all of a sudden you became professional? Good. So as the, yeah, I think when I finally started touring to the East Coast, like that sort of, I really want to. to get signed to have a support of a label. And I wanted to get signed on my term, so I'd send a cassette tape of all spoken word stuff I was writing.

You know, I was writing a book called Icon Python. And then I'd send, you know, a tape of blues songs or country songs. And I got signed, and then there's a Perth band called Jebediah, and they said, do you want to come on tour around Australia with us? I think it was 27 dates. and I was two weeks away from getting my diploma of art and design. I've done three years at art school,

and the tour started in a few weeks, and so I just said, I'm gone on the road and bailed. I never got my diploma. Do you wish you finished? Is there a part of you that just feels like, I should say, you know, I should say this shit. No, not really. Yeah, no, it's fine.

It's funny because all the art teachers, would always laugh at me and go, good luck with your band's deal. Because I'd always do the projects would be for the band, and they'd always have a good laugh. And it was like, it's pretty funny because all the covers ever since art school and everything, all the art I've done myself.

Yeah. Do you keep in touch with them? Are you aware of, you know, other than I'm saying good luck, have they over time reached out at all? No. No. I think it's the Australian way. It's like once you pass across the Rubicon, across the threshold,

you're apparently too professional. Yeah, exactly. So you signed in Australia, though. When you say East Coast, you're saying like Melbourne and Brisbane and Sydney. And you sign out of the East Coast of Australia. I can't imagine that there are a bunch of labels in Perth, although I'm sure there are.

when you sign to a label in Australia my assumption is that the goal at that point is to be big in Australia you know so there's a huge difference I feel like from being big in Australia and being big in the rest of the world but it took years it wasn't like you release

your first album on EMI and it was worldwide right away you know sort of it feels like it took some time, didn't it? Yeah, we did a bunch of EPs on the Sleepy Jackson first, and that kind of started getting ways. But the first LP lovers, I had this manager who was, you know,

she was crazy, but she was a hustler. You know, she went in and if people said no to a story, she'd, you know, call them 30 times. So she managed to get that first record basically released in about 35 countries. So when it did come out, it was a pretty, big, you know, release. And yeah, we ended up going on a pretty big world tour, you know, looking back now. It was a pretty extensive tour. We went around America twice in a split of van. We went, you know, through Europe a bunch of times. And it did really take off. And I don't

know, it was 22 years ago now. So, you know, what the industry was like back then, it sort of, it was a lot more street press and it was a lot more focused. And there wasn't so much, you know, there was probably about 8 billion less musicians and artists. So yeah, I did get pretty lucky there on that first bit. Touring in 2003 means that you're touring with an almanac in the car. Like you have an actual map. Maybe you're using MapQuest ahead of the time. But when you're talking about driving in a sprinter van in 2003,

there's no smartphones, there's no GPS, you're missing exits, you're exhausted all the time. And when you play shows, it doesn't mean that everybody even knows who you are yet. because it's not like the internet where you can see even beforehand, are there going to be any fans that are going to show up to these shows? Turing around the U.S. for two straight times

must have been exhausting and super rewarding. Talk about what that's like to go on, you know, you're touring around the world without GPS. Like that era is so different, man. Yeah, it's so funny. I asked that because the drummer is a great cinematographer, so he filmed everything.

So we just found all this footage. He's got about 80 hours of the world tour that we're going to start sifting through. But it was quite mental, you know. We're all trying to relive the Motley Crew book. And I'd sign my publishing. We're at, you know, early 20s. And all you want to do is party, pick up girls and play music.

and rock and roll. So it was really wild time. And I think that's what, you know, I've been talking a bit about that lately with this solar record. That's what's so great about when you're young because you're so ruthless, you don't care. You have that epipresent kind of energy.

And, yeah, you smash hotel rooms, you smash guitars, you drink too much, smoke too much. But that's what builds you. You know, you make mistakes, you piss people off. Yeah But looking back now Yeah It's definitely going to be a memoir

Coming one day About those times Because yeah Some of the things And shenanigans we got up to Yeah It's so hard to explain That era

And when you You go into a club And you're on tour And everyone's on the same circuit So You start seeing the band That's going to play with you You know

The week after in this club or is playing before, but all the bands kind of know each other who are on like a certain level of these circuits. Yeah. Did you, but you're not necessarily like collaborating. It's just sort of like, ah, you see that they're playing the same circuit and you kind of like cheer each other out in a way. Yeah. If that makes any sense. But who are the bands that you were, you know, at this point, you know, the band world, everyone knew who the Sleepy Jackson was.

you know, how are you communicating with other bands and with other collaborators at this point? Like one tour that I always remember was a 25 day tour with my morning jacket and that was just that was just such an incredible time because, you know, they're just such an amazing band and that would play for two and a half hours

so we'd, you know, we'd play our hour set and then you'd have this, you know, kind of like at a dead concert or something, there's time to just soak it in and party and just be part of where you are and then you get on the bus and then you end up with the next place. And yeah, that was one great tour that I remember. But yeah, God, I'm trying to think of other bands. How did your voice hold up?

I mean, it's, I always think that the guy, the guy who is the best job in the world is the basis, you know, like he can go, he can go and party, he can go and play and hit most of the notes on the right things and enjoy it, but for the most part, the people whose voices are you know, who are singing, like, it's hard to tour, you know,

and do 26 shows, or 25 shows, and also party. I don't know. It feels like that's insane. Maybe it was because you were young, but how do your, how does your voice hold on? Are you just anatomically made to be able to do that? It's, it's, it's, I.H.

That's what they say youth is wasted on the young, because it's amazing how much you can do at that age at 22. You know, we'd stay out all night, drinking, smoking, get to the show, have some burgers, you know, and a Jackson Coke, and then you're back on. And you'd obviously get tired, but you'd just, your metabolism is so fast. And I just know, because now I look to when I'm on tour now, and I'd say, I need to rest. I can't ever go out after a show because I'll lose my voice.

I need like throat coat, honey. You know, I have to be rested just so I can like, you know, it's quite a bit discouraging it in a way. Telling younger you that you're not going to be drinking that Jack and Coke when, you know, when you're going to be releasing that solo album but you're going to be drinking throat coat, younger you, younger you would slap you. There's no way, man. How did you, you know, doing that kind of.

of touring, and it is exhausting even at that age, you still manage to write and record another album after Lovers with the Sleepy Jackson, one was a spider, one was a bird. How could you find any time to do that? Do you write really

fast? Or, you know, when were you able to actually write and record after what seems to be years of touring? Yeah, I'm funny. You know, I'm always kind of writing in some way, whether it's like cataloging on like a dictaphone or a phone or writing, something that I've always had. It's not a bad habit to be in really because

something always comes back, you know, at a later time, even if it's a, you know, 30 second sketch or a, you know, a pencil drawing or something. So I guess what, what happened at the end of, you know, the second album comes out or full-length album comes out there had to be some conversation with the band that you were going to go do another project. Was Empire of the Sun initially

a side project or was it like, you know what, I'm going to go and do a new you know, I'm just retiring from the Sleepy Jackson for a moment. Like what's the transition from being in a band that seems to be on an uprising trajectory and then pivoting and doing another project?

Why do that? Yeah, well, I think once the second Sleepy record came out, it didn't really, you know, it didn't really take off like the first album. And by that point, it was, everyone was pretty exhausted. And I kind of, I went into this big warehouse in Perth. I met this girl that, and ended up becoming my wife, and we got this big warehouse.

and I kind of got it as a compound, you know, like a big writing space. And I said, you know, let's do the next record here. Everyone come down. Everyone's on a retainer. Let's just... But it just worked out. No one really came down to the factory. So it sort of became...

It ended up turning into me and my wife's place, you know, that it became our factory of recording stuff. So it sort of just became a natural progression. but funnily enough this factory ended up being the place where we wrote Walking on a Dream, which has been my biggest song on my career. So, yeah, it's funny how it's just sort of, you know what it's like sometimes. The fire just goes out and people just sort of drive their cars in different directions. Did you know that Walking on a Dream was as big as it was when you wrote it?

Did you know, like, oh, this is a new thing. level or was it just another song at the time? I think we knew it was good, but I think maybe even at that point that earlier on, early on, I was probably already slightly immune to the disaster of the music industry that you can put out a great song, but it literally needs to have all the planets aligning for it to do its thing. But when the empire did eventually come out, it did do that thing that I've never experienced where it just, it's like you're on the wave and no one's falling.

You know, the wave just keeps breaking and you still, you're still writing it. What does that mean? You know, here you are back in this remote city. You worked your way out of that remote city. And then, you know, you release Walking on a Dream. And it's so big and it's so big worldwide. how did you start realizing and when did you start realizing

that the rest of the world was just like, oh, this is a different level of success? Because you're so removed from everyone. Yeah, yeah, it's funny, hey, it's kind of, you know, we finished that backtracking a little bit after Sleepy's sort of disbanded, you know, went to Sydney and I started running with Nick and we were basically, you know,

destitute sleeping on the floor this and that and we got the record done, ended up back in Perth. And, you know, my wife got pregnant. And it just so happened that the week that my daughter was born, the record came out. So there we were, we were kind of, you know, living in this caravan out the front of my parents' house. And my daughter's born, the record comes out and then boom, you know. It was like she was this blessing, you know, for her family because, you know, I'm trying to, like, work out how to be a dad. every email is this is, songs being picked up here, picked up here, you know, worldwide.

You've been offered these tours and it just exploded, you know. When you were touring with the Sleepy Jackson, you were playing pretty good-sized venues. But the next time you're going on tour, after this, that kind of success with Empire of the Sun, it's, you know, my assumption is you've never played in front of audience that big. I mean, even opening for my morning jacket, a really big band, I feel like Empire of the Sun ends up being a whole other level of audience, participation, you know?

Yeah. How is that being a frontman of one band, you release music, you're getting emails, people saying the song's getting picked up, but it's still an email. It's not anything until you see what the difference of, you know, 3,000 people versus 10,000 people.

Yeah, it was crazy, man, because for a long time, it was like, you know, we're not touring, and Nick didn't want a tour. But it just started getting kind of crazy. It started being like headline this festival, this whole round, bigger. It kind of got bigger and bigger until it was like, you know, if I showed my dad, he would have gone,

you're an idiot, you know, if you don't do that. So we came on, you know, it was the Park Life Festival, which was this big festival around Australia, which had a lot of the Ed Bangor kind of guys. It was really a real hip kind of look. And it was funny because in all the interviews leading up, we'd written a screenplay for the Empire record and we said, you know, there's going to be elephants on stage.

So, yeah, it took a good six months to work at how to build this show. That's not going to disappoint people. It's pretty funny. how did your family react like you were saying you know that your dad would say you're stupid for not doing this it seems like you're you know your siblings and your you know your family is really supportive but they're all trying to do a similar thing were they all supportive were was there ever competition among siblings no not so much i think i think there's a little bit but um The hardest part for me was I grew up in that environment

where you work closer with people when you make a record, then you tour it's quite simple. And when Nick had said I'm not touring, I basically took that really hard because it was, you know, it worked out great in the end because he's such a great, you know, record producer. That's where his domain is. But for a good six months, I couldn't really understand that.

So I had to work out how to build a band and, you know, build the sound and everything. But everyone knows what it's like a musical family. You know, I think everyone knows it's just, it's a real mess, you know. It can be great. It can be an amazing place, but can also be pretty bad. When you have a newborn and the song comes out, obviously it's a blessing.

The song takes off. The album's really successful. you know once you start touring you start touring but you have to I assume you have to leave your daughter at home no that was that was cool we said to we would take a nanny and my wife and a daughter and she traveled the whole world you know like eight times over it was quite amazing and yeah it's a big joke in the family now it's like we see a photo where she's in i don't know Belgium or something and we go, I think you're about three there. So it's always a big joke now.

It's all my best years of my life, happy when I was three. That's really funny. How did you feel about when you do a second album, when you do the second album, it's also a successful album. How were you able to refocus after touring and performing for all those people and you're seeing the success, you know, did you find, was there pressure for the second album? Or was it sort of, we did it, now this is just fun?

Man, there was so much pressure on that second one. Like, I had a lot of massive mental breakdowns, you know, like these deep depressions where it's like, I think being the singer and being the forefront, and I'm always so hands-on with the artwork and the, you know, the concepts and, you know, Yeah, we just did so much writing. You know, we wrote in New York with Benny Blanco,

we wrote with the Neptunes in Miami, we wrote in London, we wrote in Hollywood Hills, we wrote it at my place in New Zealand, we wrote at Nick's Place in Sydney. We literally wrote all around the world, you know, for a 12-song record. You know, we go so hard, you know, to try and make the records the best they can be. But it was a tough one, you know,

to finish. But you did finish it. Were you proud when you finished it? Yeah, I love that record. You know, that second record. You know, I'm just, yeah, it's a funny feeling, you know, when you kind of, I don't know, sometimes, you know, three or four years of, you know, mental torment and punishing anxiety. You get this record.

But it came out good, you know, it came out great. you do a lot of collaborating and I find that that's that's not always normal for people and bands to do but you know like you mentioned the Neptunes and Benny and some of these people I know we've worked together

I mean you're not afraid to collaborate with you know I guess outside writers who's who introduced you to that idea and were you always excited? Was that always something that was interesting for you?

Yeah, I think I love the like the friendship of it as well. You know, you sort of, I've said this a bit, but I was never the guy guy, you know, that would play beer pong and, you know, watch the football and that. It was always like, no, let's hang out and let's make something dope. So I think collaborating became that thing.

It's like, let's use the time to just, you know, and make some great art. And, yeah, I just love the unpredictability of it, you know, when someone does something and it's like, you know. Yeah, I like when that you come in with, you come in with poems. That's something like you, you know, and when you were saying in the beginning,

you would send almost these spoken word things, you know? It's, you're, you love the language. And I think that seems to be where you start a lot of your songs. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. I think when I was young, I struggled so much to work at what would actually be your identity. You know, that thing. The song I want to, we should write is a song.

Just be you. It's the hardest thing to do. It's like I had a friend who came over from Perth, actually, and he was in L.A., and he ended up running to some guru on Venice, and he said, Just be you, man. It's the hardest thing. to do. I think the early part of my life, it was like, you know, I was learning Django Ryan hard, but then I would love Hendrix, you know, and Hendrix how he'd record

on Electric Ladyland and whisper and reverse it. But then I really love William Burroughs, you know, I thought William Burroughs was just so ahead of his time and craft work, you know, and that's, like, how can you be, you know, I guess it's one bit envious at actors all the time because it's like they get to play all the roles. You know, so part of me is like collaborating. You can step into these other worlds that people have been where you're going or want to go. And you can just get a little taste of what they've learned over in electronic land or William Burroughs land. Yeah, I wish other people, I wish all musicians believe that.

It's okay to write songs alone, totally. and it's okay to write songs with just your bandmate but it's also okay to write songs with people outside just because why not it's just a day you don't have to use the song you can still try it and you might be like oh man this song's amazing I want to release it you know but there are no rules to it you know

I used to talk about that a lot when I was younger actually in that early days like what happened if Bjork married Tom Waits or Carol King had a night out with Darth Punk you know it's it is or music is such a paradox. It's always those sessions where people go, you've got to write with this girl or this guy. And on paper, it looks like you're already buying the jet ski, you know. You go in there and then they start talking about something that you just don't agree with. And that's the worst session ever. It's quite amazing.

Yeah, you really don't know. That's why you have to walk in and see what happens on the other side. There's no guarantee. But you do the third. album, Two Vines, you know, how did you feel releasing that compared to the two previous before that? Were you going through the same torture going through this third album? We'll see, two, I love the Two Vines record

because everyone was saying, get back in the studio, and we were working at the Empire Compound, which is in downtown. And, you know, again, L.A. traffic. Like, we should write that song. just, you know, we'd start at five, so I'd have to leave at like one o'clock, you know. And you get to downtown and it just got painful, you know. We'd work all night and then I'd be driving back on the 10 at 3am, all the windows down the aircon, like punching myself in the face to stay awake. And just after Dillon that, I just said, why don't we go to like Hawaii?

Why don't we just go there for a month and go surfing, eat food, record? and, you know, I didn't take much to convince all the other guys. So that basically birthed the two vines record. We went to Hawaii and just, yeah, it was just such a great time, just riding and surfing and brought a lot of love back to the band. You know, it was getting quiet. I don't know, it's hard to explain that feeling when something becomes so big because there's so much pressure that you have to, I don't know,

I think I'm so sensitive, I realize there's a lot of people to feed, you know. in your own compound and you have to, I don't know, just has to, that can become overwhelming. I've always found so it was good to kind of let all that go and just get back to what's important. I imagine that also releasing that album, having had more fun making it, is more enjoyable when you're performing the songs because there was just probably less stress about the whole thing, right? Yeah, there is.

I think with the empire, it's just always so, you know, it's quite expansive and overblown. And, you know, we spend so long building a show and there's always, you know, adventures in it. Why do, you know, it's been a minute since two vines. You know, that's, and I know the world has gone through all kinds of changes and a lot of things have happened. So, you know, minus the last three years of course. craziness. Maybe it's not, maybe it's longer on paper than it is in our creative brains. But why do a solo album? I mean, you've been a guy who's sort of defined a couple really significant bands. Why do a solo album? You know, I think I've been trying to make this record

for so long and it's, I don't know, I think I've just had to, until growing up and got to that point, you know, where I actually do it. I think, you know, the, what record, the fourth empire record, we, you know, we spent the last five years working on stuff. You know, we went to Japan for a few riding trips, which were really amazing. And, you know, the record was going to be all based around, around that, but then that kind of got scrapped, and then we started a new record. And it's, it is really like, oh, what's a good analogy here, Ross? You know, like, when something just works, you know, like you, yeah, like when you meet your wife or something, you know, you can't do anything wrong, you know, you say something and she actually

thinks your joke's funny and then she makes you feel more confident, you know, like empire's amazing like that because if it, if the spirit isn't right and it's not a pure spirit, it just doesn't work, you know, when I sing, nothing comes out, you know, everyone's like, he's singing, he's shouting, but it just sounds silent or the chords will just be invisible, you know, you'll play the song and people go, where's the song? So we spent five years on that and it just got to the point where it was it was really quite painful, you know, to just keep pressing, you know. It's like trying to tell the Holy Ghost what to do, you know.

It just doesn't work. So I started doing these sketches and it was just felt so liberating for me to go, well, if I want to have my vocals as loud as Elvis or if I just want pedal steel, and an acopella, great, I'm going to do it, or if I want six guitars, reversed. And I love that, you know, because as much as Empire's Free, it became quite, you know, it's a process, you know,

my vocals record a certain way, the keyboards are tracked, it did have a formula, you know. So I loved that. I can sing about anything. I can, and it was like, you know, God was just giving me little breadcrumbs, you know, like I'd get up, I'd do a song, and it'd be two days on each song, finish it, like I'd come back after and fine tune it, but then I'd get another breadcrumb,

and it just went like that until it was sort of, it was done. Do you have expectations attached to releasing it? I mean, obviously, we all do when we release music and we have different things, but, like, yeah, I guess that's the real question. It's like, you're going to release, you know, you release the solo thing, And you're going to be proud or you're proud of that liberating feeling. Do you have commercial expectations attached to it having been part of these other bands? Or are you doing this?

Is there any commercial purpose to releasing music at this point? It's a good question. It's funny you said that because I think this is the first time, and maybe the first record where I'm completely surrendered, you know, that the songs, like I've always said songs fine where they meant to go, but I really feel that this record. It's the people that will hear it will hear it. And, you know, I might sell, you know, 28 copies,

but that's fine, you know. Do you think of, when you say sell 28 copies, the reality is like you could sell 28 copies that have 500 million streams. You know, it's like, what do you think about where we started, back in 2003 as artists where it's like the only metric is how many CDs you sold

even at that time vinyl is like not doing what it's doing now. You know like when it's so it's such a different place. The world that we're in now is just such a different place than the world we were when you release the

sleepy jacks, you know, lovers. It's so crazy. And those guys that had hits in the 80s, God. They're still buying jet skis now. It's like, now what do we get paid, Ross? Like 0.002 cents

and then that gets taken by the tax man anyway, right? And even at that time, walking into record stores and looking at your record in a store is like, was such an amazing feeling. And right now it's like, it's just

you know, it's streaming. Although I guess right now you probably could walk into a number of yeah i bet every vinyl shop is excited to have you walk in you know yeah yeah you'll still see it it's crazy i know you just got to keep reminding yourself like about the power of it you know

sometimes you just wish you know can you turn that into some cold hard cash so we can go to hawaii or something but yeah it is really the the power you know that music can break that break into the fourth dimension you know and it's still amazing when you read what people write, you know, and I read something on Instagram the other day

of one of the new songs, and this lady, she said, I never forget when I saw you in Chicago with Empire of the Sun. I went and I felt like something in the chamber of my heart was missing. And then after I left, it was like you put it back in place because I left happier than when I got there. It was like, wow, okay. That's, um, that makes it. That makes a lot. That makes a lot of makes it all west while, you know. Yeah, I mean, that's what I was saying in the beginning. I just remember, I don't remember a lot of bands that I saw. I remember seeing you and knowing there was this station in LA 103.1.

That was amazing. It used to just, it's like where you would discover, you know, that whole generation of Interpol. Oh, wow. Like, all the cool bands. It was like the stuff that wasn't getting played on K-Rock yet. Yeah. It was so cool.

And I just remember hearing that these bands and then wanting to go see, you know, who these people were that were releasing music that wasn't trying to be commercial. Yeah, yeah. And maybe you were, but like it was like, it was an era where good music was opening the doors. Yeah, yeah. Not the stations in a way. Yeah. In this next segment, I'm going to list five things and tell me what comes off the top of your head.

One of those. Okay. Yeah, one of those. Let's start with your dad. Like heritage, wisdom, in the blues. They're the main things. How many lines can I go into it? Is it just like the two-word thing?

That's whatever you want. there really aren't any rules. Let's go with the Sleepy Jackson. I think Sleepy Jackson. It just feels like a world away, you know, wild adventure.

You know, blurry. Fair enough. But also, you know, quite clear and life-changing. Let's do Empire the Sun. I think like letting go. over the top, like the light streaming through a crack in the door, you know, acres of diamonds, the, you know, divine intelligence, you know, all those things.

Before we go and finish this segment, you mentioned a lot of things that are spiritual. clearly you're in touch with something different than just this Zoom call you know what is your spirituality how would you describe that I guess when

this is going way back if you know you probably don't have time for a whole testimony but it was after tearing with after my brother left the ban I went on touring with sleepies and I just, that was that moment where I'm Varucasot. I want the whole world.

I want the money. I want the girl. I want the, you know, I want the whole world give it to me. And I just went so hard, you know, I was just an animal, you know, and the whole thing fell apart. You know, it all fell over and I became so depressed and it got to the point where, you know, my mom literally found me in the bath just like cutting. cutting my wrist kind of thing and it was like this is this is like the final this is the end of the road here you know um not that was going to kill myself but just more like just i was just so angry and and that's when my brother who had you know basically said you have to leave the band he came

back and he took me to this church and there was this irish preacher there colin murphy and he basically just saved me and brought me to christ and you know that's been the thing that That's, you know, I'm still a mess, but it's the one thing that's kept me, you know, I think grounded, you know, and made me realize that there's something better beyond my vanity. So, yeah, it's been a wild journey because sometimes I wonder why you keep falling, you know. It gets a bit embarrassing. It's like just what are you doing on the ground again? Just get up. But I think that's what's so good with God.

You can just go back and you can hand over the garbage, you know, and get a fresh slate to keep going. Is that where your inspiration as a writer now comes from? Yeah, it does a lot more because I think that's where, that's what becomes so important in my life, you know, about, you know, there's so many metaphors with everything in everyone's life

every day that comes back to the fact that, you know, you're going to die and then there's going to be the next generation and so on. So, yeah, a lot of funeral songs, a lot of songs about the afterlife, a lot of songs about, you know,

realizing the life that, you know, we've been given right now. Yeah. Well, let's finish the five for five with that in mind and start with your daughter. A daughter, Sunny Tiger. She was such a blessing in her life. And, yeah, we named it to be like the kind of like the princess warrior kind of thing. You know, she's sunny that she had the fierce fight of a tiger, you know.

And it was like once she was born, things. everything got better and it really was such a blessing, you know, to have, to have a child. It's such a gift. Like talking about that, about spirit, it really is a gift from God, you know, when you see what goes into making the fingers and the heart and the mind and it's like, how do you, how do you do that, you know? You just went through it and it's like, it's, oh, really? It's beautiful.

We'll talk more about that later. Okay. Your son? Son? Well, my son, yeah. He is a sunny target. He's cruise walker because he's like, he's going to be, he's the prince of peace. You know, he's going to be walking with the prince of peace.

But yeah, he was a really amazing gift, you know, because after Sonny was born, we went through, you know, some hard times for those couple years. And it was, sometimes you look at your kids and you kind of go, wow. like what happened her it's just yeah it's hard to explain that feeling yeah jody your wife uh jody snaps snappy dolphin yeah well i think um yeah she kind of changed my life in a pretty drastic way because she she's not only is my wife but she's always been my best friend you know it's kind of the minute i met her it was like you're my you're my best friend you know

And we, you know, I took her on the road all around the world and, you know, put her in the band and it sort of became, we just became this, you know, this powerful team. And I think that's the best thing about a marriage, you know, is that the team becomes strong. It becomes like an oak tree, you know, and it gets really deep the roots. And I think it's grown stronger, you know, as we've been married, you know, 15 years, it's sort of getting stronger and stronger. So, my rock. I love that.

Well, thank you so much for doing this, man. You know, we got to work together in a time when the world was pretty uncertain, and it was really cool for us to do that. And the fact that I like both the songs that we wrote together says a lot about how enjoyable it is to work with somebody who's like, I've got ideas and you come in with lyrics that are different

and that there's a perspective that's so fresh and I mean, there's no wonder why you've been so successful but also it's just been you know, I'm glad that you're my friend. Ugh, respect Russ. Right back at you, man.

Those tracks, I totally agree. You know, it was a great collab. You know, I'd put something down, then you'd go, just give me 20 seconds. And then there's like this beautiful melody. It was like, we've got to do more. Like if you're down, I just booked a place down. I don't know if this is going to be in the interview, but...

We just booked a place and be... Yeah. Well, here, we'll wrap up and then we'll talk afterwards. but thanks again man and uh congratulations yeah thanks again ross awesome chatting bro this episode is produced by jo london hypnosis mega house management and myself shout out page macdonald kelly fox kacey robison david silverstein tim kurchin zach weinstein see you all next week i'm ross golan signing off