And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 155: Blake Slatkin

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

Today’s guest is an American songwriter and record producer. He is best known for his work with Justin Bieber, Lil Nas X, Lizzo, The Kid Laroi, and Gracie Abrams. He has charted five songs in the Top 10 of the Billboard Hot 100, including The Kid Laroi and Justin Bieber’s “Stay” and 24kGolden and iann dior’s “Mood” which both charted at number one. Our guest was born and raised in Los Angeles, California and began playing guitar at 10 years old. After playing in bands and singing covers at venues around LA, he discovered what it meant to be a producer and became enamored with the career. At 16, he began an internship with producer Benny Blanco before moving to New York City to attend New York University. While attending NYU, he worked as a producer and songwriter with Gracie Abrams and Omar Apollo, executive producing both their debut projects. After dropping out of NYU to return to Los Angeles, he began working full time on music. During the pandemic in 2020, he met and began working with longtime collaborators The Kid Laroi, Lil Nas X, Omer Fedi, and 24k Golden. In October of that year, he got his first Billboard Hot 100 #1 song with “Mood” ft. Iann Dior, which topped the chart for 8 weeks. Later that year he produced The Kid Laroi’s breakout hit “Without You” and in July of 2021 produced “Stay,” a fast-paced pop rap, pop rock, and synth-pop song, which peaked at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 for 7 weeks, later becoming the 2nd longest running song in the top 10 of all time and spent the most weeks at #1 in pop radio history. He earned a nomination at the 64th Annual GRAMMY Awards for Album of the Year for Lil Nax X’s ‘Montero,’ which Slatkin worked on as a producer and songwriter, working on “That’s What I Want”. Our guest was named to Variety’s Hitmakers of the Year in 2021 and to Forbes’ 30 Under 30 List in 2022. He was an honoree for Pop Song of the Year at the 2022 BMI Pop Awards for “Mood” and was nominated for Producer of the Year at the 2022 iHeartRadio Music Awards! And The Writer Is… Blake Slatkin!Watercolor by: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey, what's up? It's Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update. Warner Chapel and Kevin Hart's media company, Heartbeat, have joined in an exclusive music publishing partnership.

Universal Music Group has been named an exclusive launch partner for an AI-driven music app called Vera that assist dementia patients. Ashley Calhoun has been promoted to president of Pulse Music Group. Becky G. is giving away $500,000 worth of Bitcoin. coin two fans. Spotify projects reaching one billion users by 2030. Sarah Larson has bought back her entire recording catalog and is launching a new label called Somer House. The music funding platform, Beep Red, has finalized its biggest deal to date with singer-songwriter Ellie Duet. Another block, which is a Web3 platform that lets fans invest in music by buying NFTs has raised $2.5 million in a new round of funding.

Robbie Hoffman has joined Primary Wave's talent management division. The music tech startup Indy Flow has raised $4 million in new funding. SongTrader has acquired AI metadata and music search company MusicCube. The distributor TuneCore has overhauled the current pricing system in exchange for a single annual fee. Virgin Music has launched a label and artist services division in Africa. Primary Wave has acquired a piece in the music publishing catalog of Julian Casablanca's, the lead singer of rock band The Strokes.

Live Nation has expanded its Latin touring team with four new hires. Jennifer Cicerta has been named Head of People at SoundCloud. Wasserman Music has promoted five long-time London. and based employees to agents, including Laura Brown, Cecilia Chan, Susie Melke, Lucy Putman, and Holly Rowland. Deco Records has signed Jung Jail, the South Korean composer behind the Parasite and Squid Game soundtracks and many more. A big thank you to Hannah Rosenberg of Megahouse for gathering today's news.

Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne the Writer is. Guys, listen up. Last year we started working with LAMP. It's a school called Los Angeles Academy for artists and music production that's run by and founded by Stargate. Their mentor list is nuts. It's Benny Blanco, Tommy Brown, Tenache, Emily Warren, John Cunningham, a bunch of people who've been guests on this show.

So obviously we're fans of them, and this school has been amazing. And I wanted to bring them back this year so they can tell you an update on how LAMP is going and ways for you guys to get involved in LAMP. Tor, dude, good to catch up. It has been a very strange time in the last year, but you guys are still trucking through,

and it's even growing and growing. So I just want you to tell everybody, you know, what's going on? How's the school going? Well, as you know, Ross, Lamp is a one-year high-level music program. We're in Santa Monica in California, and we have a site with 48 students. They collaborate, write music, produce every single day. And we started this last year.

We're just graduating our first class, and we're doing admissions for the next year now. And just the level of music that's coming out of this place is mind-blowing. We thought it was going to be hard to get people up to a professional level, but people came in with a growth mindset, and they're already at a professional level. So these guys are ready to go out because we create a real world environment where it's just like being in a writing session.

We pair producers with songwriters and artists and we write songs every single day. Then we break them down once a week. Focus on the songwriting, focus on the performance, the production, the beats, are the beats hitting, are the titles great, are the melodies distinct? Is it memorable? What can we do to make it better?

and that's the type of feedback you don't get in the industry, right? No one's ever going to tell you what you can do to your song to make it better. They just won't call you back. We have a program where it feels like the real world, but you get professional feedback from the best mentors in the game. I mean, I can't imagine if we would have had this when we were coming up, just the ability to not only meet some of the people that you have coming in, but the ability to actually get that feedback is priceless

because it took most of us a lot of not-so-good, songs. Exactly. I mean, when we started LAMP, it was, you know, the mission was what can we give to the next generation that took us years to learn? What are the things that we wish we knew when we started out that we can tell people? So there's no formula, but there's definitely certain key principles that never change in storytelling, in melody, and song structure, and all these key things to take your song from good to great, which is what it's all about. You know, it's not about having a bunch of good songs. It's about having those feelings. you that are great.

So tell me, if I'm a student and I come to Santa Monica to be at the school, what would a day look like for me? Well, typical days that we have mentors or workshop holders in the morning. We show up at 10 a.m. every day. And then by 3 p.m. you're in the studio. We have 16 rider rooms where we have, you know, it's fully adept out with microphones and monitors and keyboards and everything. People bring their own. You bring your own laptop. up and then you write songs and create music and try to make magic happen every day. That's our day and that's our week.

If I can't get to Santa Monica, is there any way for me to still learn from school? I assume not every student comes to Santa Monica. Is there an online version of it? We have an online program, which is just as big as if not bigger than the on-site, which is you get the same content. We share all the mentors. course, we share all the workshops, we put people in groups. So you zoom or you FaceTime in with your group that week, you create songs, you exchange files. We teach you how to record your own vocals,

if you don't know how to do that. We teach you how to exchange beats, text over music, and then send that back and create a song by the end of the week, deliver it on Friday and get feedback. Actually, you deliver it on Saturday now because some of the students have jobs, so we want to accommodate for that. Finish your song on Saturday. And the following week, you get it. You get it on Saturday, get feedback from our listening panel. Awesome. So admissions open now. How would I apply? You

only get in by going to lampmusic.com and sharing your music. You don't need a degree. You don't need necessarily formal education. You only need talent and the ambition and the will to get better. So go to lampm music. That's

L-A-A-M-P-Music.com. You share your music. We listen to your music and we reached out, set up in the interview and we'll take you from there. Tor, congratulations on, you know, keeping this going. You know, I just think you and

Mikel have been mentors of mine in many ways and I've just so envious of these kids that they get to do it. So congratulations. Thank you so much, Roth. All right, man. All right. Take care. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host

Ross Golan. Today's rising star went from being the intern of former and the writer is hall of famer Benny Blanco to being named to Forbes 30 under 30 list and varieties hit makers of the year with multiple number one smashes. You might recognize his name from the credits of Kidleroy and Justin Bieber's hit stay, which spent eight weeks at the top of the Hot 100 chart and the number one bullet mood by 24K Golden and Ian Dior, which also stayed for eight weeks or did they, but, I mean, I don't know, lots of number ones for a long time. And if you still haven't heard his name yet, you will in two sentences from now. All the way from Los Angeles, this songwriter and producer

is starting off this decade by defining it. And the writer is Blake Slacken. I think I'm going to take a clip of that and walk out of my shower to that every single morning. That was like the best intro ever. That was amazing. That is such an image. I actually think you should describe the sweater you're wearing right now because I mean if you before like you've taken the shower and then you go and you're like this is the sweater I'm going to put on. Well it's funny that you say that. Where did you get that? I wish everyone could see this sweater because I love it so much but it's given me the worst allergies all day because it's mohair and i haven't taken it off because i have too much pride

because i spent fucking 300 bucks on it and i feel like i need to get my use out of it so even though it's giving me the worst allergies ever it looks great and i feel i feel like i look great i don't feel great and it's going to stay on that is that yeah there's there's this economist thing let people talk about with food where you know when you get um it's like when you order a really expensive meal, you feel like you need to finish it. Oh, I'm that all the time. I'm the guy that takes off every leftover from the table, too.

Yeah. Like, I'm the guy that's like, oh, are you going to finish that? And then, like, I'll take it home for the next day. Always. Were you, like, is your family like that? Or were you? It's actually funny. My sister, that's literally her major in college, is food waste.

So I definitely get it from my family. and I think I've just been bullied by my sister for so long that it's kind of ingrained into me. But here I am taking food home and wearing allergy sweaters. Now you go to probably more expensive restaurants than you used to go to. When you go to Sushi Park,

do you take home leftover sushi? I'm definitely eating every fucking bite of Sushi Park that they give me. Explain what Sushi Park is for the listeners who don't know Sushi Park. is. Sushi Park is, honestly my favorite restaurant in L.A., I think. It's a kind of hole in the wall.

There's not, like, the vibe is that there's no vibe. You know what? Like, the walls are this really ugly orange, and it's not, like, the best design thing you've ever seen, but it is the fucking best sushi. By the way, I'm allowed to curse, right? Yeah, you can. Okay, that's super important. It's just the best.

Although, although there is one review on our iTunes. like one review and I shouldn't say I read them but every once in a while I'm like oh I'm curious what people say most people are like I like this show it's a good thing for songwriters somebody gave us two stars

and wrote on the thing can't there be a clean version for the kids? Well I have one message for that person and that's fuck you hey slam die sushi park is the greatest

it's the best sushi in L.A. It's offensively expensive but 100% worth it for what you get and you walk in there and you see Jayze and Beyonce in their pajamas or like fucking Steven Spielberg having dinner with like

Jimmy Hendrix or some dead person because something like that would happen at Sushi Park you know what I mean? Like it's that kind of place where it's a scene but not really in a it's not a Soho house scene. That's what I'll say. Okay so you were born in LA

so you're familiar with running into people where in L.A. were you raised? And, you know, tell me a little bit about your family. Was raised in Westwood. My family, I have the best family. I'm so lucky. My dad, from a very early age, was showing me great music and showing me the Beatles and, you know, everyone who I needed to hear.

My mom forced me to take piano lessons, which I didn't love. And then I started playing guitar when I was 10. and and yeah i've family i've gotten super lucky with having the best parents best siblings uh just all around great influence um older younger siblings what do you have two younger siblings i'm the oldest one who's one who's 15 named carrie he's who i get all my that's how i really know what's going on is from carrie and my sister is 21 she goes to Berkeley College. Do you feel a responsibility to, you know, as the oldest sibling,

do you feel a responsibility to lead the way? And do they feel, you know, having had such success already, do they feel the need, you know, to compete with the success you've had? You know, I don't know if they feel the need to compete because I both, I think they both would never go in. of music. But it's been interesting because any success I've had or just my entire kind of music journey and evolution has been literally right next to them. Like my studio that I'm sitting in right now is still at my house that my family's at. Like every one of those songs was made at my mom's house.

So like my siblings know every artist I work with. They're like, you know, me, me and Leroy took carry out to Scooter one time, my little brother. You know, I mean like we've done that several times like everyone who I work with loves hanging out with my sibling so they're really close to it they've been fans of my music since it was horrible and they shouldn't have been fans of it you know like they've always been the best cheerleaders so I think I'm I think I'm a good influence work ethic wise because you know my little brother can grow up seeing that when he wakes up the studio lights are on and when he goes to bed the studio lights are on you know so he knows that I'm working as hard as I'm working as I

possibly can. But yeah, I'd like to think I'm a good influence. I haven't really thought about that. Well, that's why I asked the question. So you think about it. Can I also say, I'm the biggest fan of this podcast? Like, I've listened to it from the beginning. I listened to so many episodes. It was really like one of my favorite things and I can't believe that you want to talk to me. Like, it's just crazy that I'm on this to me. I just love it. First of all, thank you. And second, I hope that that's the case, man. I hope that. that when, you know, I think people think that successful songwriters are no longer struggling. And I think in reality, all songwriters are struggling songwriters.

You know what I mean? And that was sort of the whole purpose of the whole thing is when you realize, you know, the first episode's Benny. So I was like, and part of that was because you know, I got some of my first big cuts because of him. You know, it's like, everyone is struggling and everyone is like everyone opens doors for each other even if you don't know them that's 100% true

and also like I think everyone who really who does well in this business is just a fan of everyone and everything like when I first met Benny he said he was like have you seen all the videos of me

have you seen all my interviews and I was just like it's so like of course by the way and second of all like I have competitions with people I work with of like who's seen like oh you've seen this video of this producer at that time like oh you've seen this video of Timbalin showing this beat to this part

like it's like all I do all I did as a kid was just look at every fucking piece of information I could find from any producer that I respected even producers that I didn't respect and I didn't and I found and I got a respect for them that's just how I like to spend my time. Like, I'm just the biggest fan of music and people who make music ever. So, of course I've,

you know, of course I would want to hear every end the writer is. Of course I would want to hear every podcast that's out of anyone. Like, yeah, so I think I've loved this a lot because it was one of the first things that really gave, like, in-depth interviews with people who I really wanted to hear from. So if you're listening right now, I don't know why you want to hear from me, but thanks for hearing from me. Yeah, I love that. I feel like we should end right now because of how good that was. But we're going to go back before that. We're going to rewind a little bit. What makes you go from playing guitar at 10 to actually writing songs?

I wanted to be a rock star, like picking up guitar and singing and all that. And I would play a bunch of cover songs. I started playing. I knew someone who worked at the whiskey ago. when I was 13 and she offered me, she was like, if you can sell 50 tickets, I'll give you a show on a Friday night or something like that, obviously at like 5 p.m. or something like that. But I started doing that and I would sell tickets to all my friends and my teachers and I would just play cover songs. And they were fun. I'm sure I fucking, I sucked. And I just play like cheesy covers, but I had the most fun doing that. And then I think at some point I just got tired

playing other people's songs and I wanted to write my own songs. Yeah, I mean, but that's a huge difference. I feel like what's like the first song you're like, I'm trying to write this song and it's your own? Like, what's that, what was that song called? It's really hard. I don't know. I have a bunch of notebooks.

I was one of the bad kids who aren't, like, I would always hear people saying, you know, you have to finish songs, you have to finish songs. And for a long time, I would do starts of songs and then I would kind of just like, throw them away. So I don't know what my first song was that I fully wrote, but I remember one song called Next September that was like, everything will be better next September or something like that, because I was like summer going into the next school year, and I was like, people are going to like me next year, that girl's going to like me back next year. I think maybe that was the first one. I feel like most people who, you might be on this threshold where, and maybe it was your

peers even, were their first instrument as a computer, not a guitar or a piano. You know, my, like the, the way people talk about music now, it feels like when I talk to most

people who are, you know, in their mid-early 20s, they're, you know, when I ask you, what kind of music are you into, they're like house music. And what kind of music do they like making the house music. And part of it is because everyone has garage band and Ableton and

logic on their computer. So it's so easy compared to other genres to play. Why would you play guitar over making house music? That's a good question. I really, I fell in love with production after guitar. I felt in like I had a good six years of playing guitar where I wanted to be Hendricks and BB King and everyone, all the heroes. And then I think I found out what a producer even was, because I didn't even understand it. And I didn't understand that people, you could write songs and you didn't have to be the artist.

And I found Benny and Max and Timbland and Farrell and the idea of being a part of all these different artists and all these different kinds of music and being able to walk down the street. after it was like the coolest thing ever from me. So that's when I picked up. But I started in Pro Tools only because I would watch every video. And I saw that a lot of my heroes were in Pro Tools.

So I wasn't one of those Ableton kids. I'm still not an Ableton kid. I still, I should probably switch to something, but I've still just been in Pro Tools since I started. It's weird. It already makes you sound older. Literally. And you're so young.

But by just saying it makes you sound older to be like, oh yeah, I still use pro-trols. Just like put you in a category as somebody who... Older and so much less cool also. It's like so much less sick than people who are amazing in FL or amazing in Ableton, but it's just what works for you. I will say I really like...

We won't get into super nerd talk, but I like pro tools because it's harder to do everything, which means you have to think about everything a little bit more. It's harder to kind of throw stuff at the wall. You kind of have to think about what you need and what you want a little bit more than just doing a bunch of random stuff for no reason.

So that's my 10 seconds of nerd talk. Why not go further than that? Why hold back on the nerd talk? I don't know. I mean, I guess if that's an interesting thing. Yeah, I like being purposeful and being as simple as possible.

Is that something that was taught or something learned? I think definitely both. Definitely both. You don't, at the end, of the day the song is the only thing that matters and I think a lot of people coming up in Ableton and Logic and FL and just a lot of new producers you forget that the only thing people really care about is the song always and the production's always there to support it and that's just something

that I had to I had to learn over a lot of years and something that's something that's I think once I learned it, and once I really understood that no one cares about the sound that's 40 dB down that you made with a guitar that you reamped and pitched up, six up, and then pits down, and then

miced it up out of a pool garage. And you know what I mean? Like, no one cares. I care, and I like that stuff a lot sometimes, and I do it. But at the end of the day, you always got to focus on the song. I mean, that's the whole point in this podcast, is that, and

I say it all the time. I'm a fan. I actually listen to music when I want to listen to something, but as a writer, I don't care about music. I only care about songs. Yeah. Like, there's a huge difference between music and songs. And, like, I listen to Cigaros or I listen to, you know, whatever it is.

I'll listen to music when I want to listen to sound, purposefully recorded sound. I'll listen to music. because if I listen to songs, I find it distracting. But when I write, I don't care at all about the music. I only care about the song. I wouldn't say I don't care about the music. I spend, this is what I'll say too. When I'm making music, everything in the room writing the song is about the song.

I don't care about the production at all. At all. Again, I'm sure everyone's heard this a million times, but if a great song is a great song, it can be on any instrument in any arrangement. It's simple. So anytime I'm writing a song, that's all I care about. That being said, after that, if I get a great song and something that I really love, I'll go to the ends of the earth to make the music amazing

and something that supports it in the best way. I'll spend six months every single day, just getting it right. So I definitely don't not care about it, but I would never spend that six months on a song that I didn't think was great. song first when you were this is

let's go to a little bit of your you know your life is actually pretty short before you start working in a way with intention

of being a professional musician like you start interning seven years ago when you're 17 years old and you start working with Benny

one, how did you get that gig? And, you know, previous to that, were you, like, already producing out people in high school and stuff? Yeah, I was. I was. I got it because I was Benny's biggest fan. And I knew that I wanted to learn from someone. I wanted to do some sort of internship.

And I, one day I was on my friend's mom's Instagram, just when you find yourself in a three-hour Instagram hole and then you end up on someplace where you don't know how you could possibly get there. It was on my friend's mom's Instagram. And like two years back she had posted a picture and he was in the background. And I was like, holy shit, she knows Manny Blanco.

So I just asked my friend to ask his mom, can you please see if he needs an intern, see if he needs anyone, I'll do anything. Obviously, I'll work for free. Whatever he needs. She hit him up. He never responded. She hit him up again. It took a few times. And finally, he was like, okay, I'm in L.A. right now. Why don't you have him come by the studio? I went by the studio after school one day. And he said, have you seen every video of me? He did the whole thing. And we had we just talked kind of for an hour. And he asked me what I loved and what I didn't love and what I loved about his music and what I left about music and

I had a really good conversation and then he said I'm going to be in New York all summer but you're going to be in L.A. I'm about to build a studio here. Why don't you help my engineer build the studio this summer and then when I get to L.A. next year you can work with me. So that's what I did. Crazy. Was that Chris? Who was the engineer?

It was Chris. So me and Chris built the studio for three months. Never even, was never in the studio, never saw Benny. I would talk to him sometimes. And then finally, I think the next November he came. And then I got to sit in the studio and be around him and be around all the artists. And it was the best thing ever. It was the best dream that could have possibly happened. Shout out to Chris.

When your friend's mom, who happens to know Benny, was she also in the music business? She's in the music business and she played poker with him. So I get the feeling that you were surrounded with people in the music. When I was 15, I read a book about the music business, but I didn't know anybody in it. Were you already friends with people in the business? Or it just happened that your friend's mom was in the business? I think that was the only person actually that I knew in music.

That was the only person. I had my uncle had a label under Atlantic for like two years, 20 years ago, and then quit. And otherwise, that was the only person I really knew in music. I had been around people, for sure. I wouldn't say I grew up not knowing anything about the music business. And honestly, I grew up knowing a good amount because of just watching videos, too. Yeah, that's a big... the access to information now if you want it,

even if you're in L.A. or not L.A., but the access to learn is everywhere. It's honestly unbelievable. Because really the only way that you can do, people can achieve their wildest dreams or whatever, is like there are certain things that you've got to understand and certain things that you just have to know. And before, you wouldn't know that unless you knew people

and now everything is online. I still watch people's Twitch streams, producer's Twitch streams to learn, like all the time. Like, that's how I fall asleep. It's like I'll watch like Ian Kropactric or like Disclosures stream. I love it. It's so much fun to me.

And you can literally never stop learning. But the access now that kids have to learn from these people is just incredible. Yeah. Shout out to Ian too, man. Shout on Nick Mera. Nick Mera screams are insane. Yeah, these people who are sharing information,

they don't have to do that. I know a lot of, you know, they're making some money off of it, but all things considered, like, there's a generation of people who could just sort of ride off into the sunset and not share that information, but I just always appreciate people who do that.

I always appreciate it, and I don't think you lose. anything by by doing it. I don't think you lose any like there's there doesn't need to be secrets like I someone said something great that like the music business isn't a basketball team it's not like there's a set amount of spots like yeah you're fighting for singles but everyone has a shot at I'm making a big song and just because someone else has a big song it doesn't mean that you don't have one you know what I mean has you don't even have the opportunity so I I like I like being competitive

because it makes me work harder and it's just fun for me in a friendly way but I don't believe in sharing secrets. I think anything, and also anything I've ever learned from someone, I genuinely appreciate what I learned and I always try to pay it back if I can. There was a writing camp that I did

with Benny and a crew and I remember somebody saying you know, it's like, well, yeah, it's just a lottery. It's just a lottery ticket, you know, when you finish a song. And one of the other guys at the writing camp said, well, it's a rigged lottery. And I thought that that was really interesting.

I don't think it's meant in necessarily like a mafia sort of way. But there are 40 slots, at least as radio's concerned. So you can rig it as like you might be able to negotiate to make sure you have a single or you might be able to do certain things to get in the room. But in the end, like, mood should not have been, and we'll get there, but mood should not have had one of those 40 slots. Like on paper, going into that session, there's no way anybody's like,

this is the session that's going to get you that smash. You're going to go into that session and be like, I'm going to try to steal the slot on this album. and that's something that's kind of like the fair game and that's where it's a little rigged. But the idea of stealing one of the radio slots, especially for this generation, is just not realistic. It's just not realistic at all.

And also, no plug-in is going to get you that spot. No drum sound is going to get you that spot ever. Again, it's always song first. So those things are really helpful to making your music sound better. And sometimes they can make the song better and from a production standpoint, but those kinds of secrets aren't something that can really, really, truly

make or break your song. But yeah, you're right. And that's what I love about music right now is that we had never had hits before, pretty much. Omer and Golden had had City of Angels, which did really, really well on Spotify and TikTok, but no real hits.

We're all in this room making music. We had just as much of a chance, of making a hit that day as all of my heroes, as you, as Max, as any one of these people, we had just as much of a chance to make a hit, and we did. And we weren't in a fancy studio. We weren't, the session wasn't set up by an A&R

who was bribing us with it. You know what I mean? Like, it could have been anyone. And now I'm lucky enough and fortunate enough to work with artists that are a lot big. and songwriters that I've always looked up to. And I still don't feel like when we get in the room, we have any more of a chance of making a hit song or a great song

than some kid in Wisconsin. You know, like, we really, we all have an equal chance. I mean, and this isn't about Benny, but one of the other things that he said was like, when I asked him, I think the assumption is that it's easier for you once you have hits. And his response is, no, it's harder because the expectation begins to get higher. So when you send in a song, if it doesn't compete with other songs that you've done before, that's a hit,

then people are like, well, you know, this is no, this is no stay, this is no mood. And you're like, no, no, this is different. This is better. or this is different, not better, but it's different. But they start to have this expectation. Yeah, but we really were hoping that you just give us that song. And it never gets easier. I always think that it'll get easier.

I always think like, oh my God, maybe this time we're not going to have to spend five months getting everything right and reproducing it six times and doing all these things. And it literally never gets easier to make something that's great, or at least that I think is great. But I love that. I actually love that so much. I think it's such a great challenge.

I think it makes it exciting. No one would want to live in a world where only five people are allowed to make great songs. You know what I mean? Look at Gail. Congratulations to Gail, by the way. Shout out Gail, you're amazing. I've never talked to you. But that ABC, D EFU is one of the biggest hits of the year so far.

Was anyone pouring a $400,000 marketing budget? into that originally. Was anyone paying five grand for Conway every day for her to go in and to make that? No, not at all. And she made something truly great and now it's doing what it deserves to do. You have a the thing that you did from the beginning, at least that I can see

from the notes that I have, is that you when you went to NYU when you were you know probably 18, I would assume, 19 and you started doing exactly what you were talking about

which is you started working with your peers you found people who were creative artists or singers and you just started producing them or writing for them because you had the skill set to do it you weren't there was no an R person

who was probably hitting you up while you were at NYU you had experience you had interned you had done someone there's stuff you'd been in studios. But that's totally different. In reality, most of the people who listen to this podcast who don't have hits

could find a singer. And if you create good enough music, you know, or you find ambitious enough singers, you know, then maybe you can have like, you can actually make a dent in the business without there ever being a $400,000 budget per song. Maybe I'm different than most people, but at least everyone who I make music with is the same.

I hate making music alone. I hate it. Really? I, like, the fun of it for me is being with my friends and being, I always feel like I'm the least talented person in the room, and I always feel like I'm just watching these people, and I'm like, holy shit, I can't believe they let me in here. And everything I say is like, oh, like, what have we did this? You know what I'm like?

that's the fun of it to me. There's an energy in the room and feeding off of someone else's energy and feeding off of what someone else is going through and just that whole process is my favorite way to make music. And I think it has always made me better. And I think if you're around greatness, you get great.

I think if you're not around greatness and you're just getting better and you're starting out, I really think working with other people can always make you better always i've never been a part of a song where i could look back and be like oh yeah i could have done that myself never and and i don't think any of the people who i made the songs with would say that either none of them would say i could have done that song without that person and and that's the beauty of it that's like back to my mom's house in this studio

that i'm sitting and like stay happened not because of a planned session not because of anything we were it was literally just my friends hanging out in this room. Leroy texted us saying, what are you doing? I'm going to come over. It came over and 10 minutes later, Stay was done. That's so much fun to me. I never would have sat in a room and just played

I never would have sang those lyrics. I never would have sang those melodies without just none of it would have happened without other people. Did you write the, I mean, not to, we'll skip to this and then we can revisit when we get there, but did you write who did what in that room? So Charlie

came in or Leroy came in Charlie just sat down at the Juno and started playing just that riff exactly as you hear it on the record. We did not change anything and that was the take too

was the first time he ever sat down to play it that's the one we used and then Leroy said oh I think I hear something for this got on and basically in one take maybe it was two wrote the entire song

and we went back and we edited certain things and we changed little things but it was completely insane. It was like a moment that I will never forget ever. Leroy is like really one of the most talented people I've ever met in my entire life. Just imagine like

imagine being in the room and watching someone sing that live one take just being like oh my God, what is even happening? I was out of my body. I mean, the amazing how much, I don't know what the edits were, but there's something about that

improvisation that where somebody stands in front of a mic and the first thing they hear why it's so important to keep that mic rolling because so many good ideas come before you have an opportunity to think about the songwriting.

I think the best ideas come before you have an opportunity. me to think about it. And then the editing makes it great. Yeah. But you can have great improvisation that can stand the test of time that's all of Miles Davis. But you can also have like that editing is what makes that hook. I wasn't totally.

And they both go hand in hand. I think you need the magic and then you need the tools to edit it to really complete it. But I wasn't in the room when. mood was made originally, at least the start of it. I wasn't in the room when Golden and Ian laid down most of their parts, but Omer just started playing the guitar. Beasy just made the beat. And the first thing that came out of Golden's mouth was,

why you always in a mood? And the whole thing was done in like 10 minutes. It's the exact same thing. It was just a magic night. And then Ian came in, laid down his verse, and it was almost done. Just in a magic moment. like that. And I feel like I work

every day just waiting for the magic moment to happen and sometimes it doesn't happen. That's also what makes me feel better about when I walk out of the room without something that I love and that's great is that the energy just wasn't right maybe

or the magic moment didn't come and that's all good. It's not our fault. Yeah and also I also think it's important to revisit some ideas that if you wrote a great pre-chorus today

it's okay to maybe just keep that and maybe the next day you're like hey this one part was great and you maybe you do different chords around it I'm working on a song right now that we had one of those magic moments for the hook and we had verses and prees and they sucked

and then we did two more sessions and then on the third session someone was like holy fuck and we got the verses and the pre-s. You know what I mean? So like sometimes it takes a few. But but I think it all, normally for me, it happens like that. If these songs are, you know, I've tried to explain this to a few people where if a hit song, let's say a hip-pop song gross is a million dollars, maybe $10 million, depending what it is, but just for math, let's say it's a million dollars, right?

I really hope my stomach groans are being picked up on mic, by the way. The idea of someone in their car hearing my stomach go like, is my favorite thing ever. Okay, sorry, continue. We'll talk about some of the other podcasts we've done, where there are some weird sounds if you listen in the background. If I have to fart, I'll fart. I won't hold it.

Weirder things that happen. Okay, perfect. Keep going. But the idea that if a pre-chorus is, if a song is three minutes on, a pre-chorus really ends, of taking 20 seconds three times. So you end up with a minute of the three minutes of pre-course or whatever it is. That means that pre-course is actually worth $33,000.

Yeah. Like I think a lot of times people think that you need to have all the parts. But if that one line, if the title of the song is amazing, but everything else sucks, Man, that title's worth a shitload of money if you're thinking of it as creating assets. I've never thought about it like that. It's not sexy, but a great verse

is totally worth going back in three, four, five times if you can know it. I think a great everything is worth. I will, I'll kill myself to get every part of a song exactly how I hear it in my head and exactly how it needs the sound. I think every single part matters. We spent probably three months

on the five-second bridge breakdown of stay, of maybe 10 different versions of it, until we thought we got it right. Like every moment of a song to me matters. Yeah. When you, going back to your first artist that you start working with, where we start finding out,

where people start looking at your work, you started working with Gracie Abrams and Omar Apollo while you were at NYU. I assume that they were both students at NYU. No, neither was. Neither were. Omar was not and Gracie eventually went to Barnard. How did they meet you?

Those both were like super buzz, became really buzzworthy after you got involved with them. Omar, I met through my then manager, and we just started, he had had some success on Spotify and was just starting to get in the studio. He hadn't really been in the studio, and I hadn't really been in the studio with an artist either. And I was living in an apartment on Avenue C, and he would just come over. And I think a few of the first songs we made, he had already written. and we just we I produced them and we made like little edits here and there and then we started writing together

and you know Omar's Omar's incredible he's amazing it's been it's been amazing to see what he's done now he's he's playing Terminal 5 this tour like he's really it's awesome and Gracie's my girlfriend but Gracie I was Gracie and I would send music to each other when we were just friends and just talking, but we definitely always had crushes on each other.

And we started dating, and it kind of just made sense to make music together. And it's a crazy process. It's been one of the most rewarding, meaningful, emotional music processes I've ever been a part of, of course. You know, a lot of these songs are about us, and a lot of these songs she wrote when I wasn't with her about us and about me and then we work on them together like I've I've had to work on our songs when we're

when we're broken up and I hear her voice in my headphones for six hours in a day and it's just it's crazy but I could not be more proud of the music that I've made with Gracie and and I couldn't be a bigger fan of her music even just separating myself from it and I couldn't be like all the stuff that she makes with other people I love I just think she's unbelievable. I think she's one of the most talented, one of the most influential artists that's come in a long time.

Is it hard to separate when you know a lyric is about you guys? Does it bring up emotions or are you totally able to separate? Oh, of course. How could it not? There's a lot of songs that she, we'd be going through issues

or going through rough patches and we would have not talked about them. And there's a lot of songs that she played me that is just about what we haven't really talked about, that we've both broken down crying or that provoked the conversations. Yeah, of course it's hard. I could never say that it's like,

oh, you know, I just separated and I just pretend like it's super, it hits. It hits sometimes. And I think it's always been worth it. There was one moment where, I mean, actually several moments now, where girls have come up to me, or guys too, and said, you know, that music you and Gracie make really helped me through a breakup.

Or I cry to Gracie's music every night and I always feel better after. Or just anything like that. And I think when I realized that the music means that to other people, almost as much as it means to me, it made everything. It just makes it worth it. I'm always down to make it really hard on myself. And she is too, if we can make something like what we've made to make people feel. Was there ever a time where you felt like it kind of crossed the line and said too much? Maybe in the moment, yeah, but looking back, anything that was too hard and that said too much

was something that we probably should have talked about before. So I would say that. was there a time where either her family or your family looked at listened to the music and felt like it was hard to share it with your family or her family there's a lyric about my mom in one of my in one of my favorite gracy songs that I didn't do

called 21 that I love that song and and when my mom heard it she definitely started I think my mom heard it after we had gotten back together when we were broken up the first time. So it was, she kind of got to laugh at it. But, but no, I mean, it's definitely, it's gotten to that point for sure. You left school after a couple of years. Are you okay having never graduated college? I'm okay having never graduated college. I would love to go back at some point. And even if I never got my degree, just take classes because I loved it. But,

I needed to get out and start working at L.A. Yeah, it's, you know, it's that they, this is your story, not mine, but I always, I graduated early, but I always say, like, nobody asked me what my GPA was. You know, it was like, to me, I was like, I crammed in as many classes I possibly could because I had a, I had a, I was working in the music business. I wanted to get out, and it was either I'd drop out or I finish,

and I just finished just about a skin in my, as far as grades, grades are concerned. But, you know, it was one or the other. And, like, you know, it's sort of unnecessary. It's more just, you know, I just was curious having spent two years in school if you feel the need to go and finish it. It's not something that's, like, on the top of my list, but I was lucky enough to go to college,

and that's a crazy blessing that we both got. You know what I mean? So... Would you go for music, or would you go and study something else? I would never say anything bad about a music school, but I just don't know if you need it as much now. I think the best education you can possibly get music-wise is going on YouTube and watching producers make music

and going on YouTube and listening to people in the music industry. That being said, there were some amazing classes at NYU where people who I really respected in the music industry came and talked, and I learned so much. And there were some amazing moments where going to music school, I got studio time and I got to meet people who were in my class who I thought were really talented and learned how to collaborate that way. So I think that was really important. But I don't think that if you don't get to go to music school, it means anything about how your career is going to go. The first real single that you have is a Kevin Gates record.

I guess not first real thing the first like gold record at least that I can find Yeah that's crazy I didn't even think about it like that That is my first gold record What the what the fuck is that? Like how does that happen?

That's hilarious I haven't thought about that song in so long I moved to L. I mean this is a great chance to shout out My manager Lillia who I love more than anything in my in anything I moved to L.A.

signed a publishing deal and my now manager lilia was setting up sessions for me every day and i was just working with anyone who i could work with and there was this amazing writer who's still amazing and it has gone on to have really really fucking big records named derrick milano and derrick milano came over to my house and i had made that beat with day trip a while back and he just one take that hook and then Kevin Gates ended up cutting it and that was my first goals record that's hilarious I love that

it's so random how these things happen and I think beats are going to be really complicated in the future because they're becoming more and more automated and there's a lot of technology around where beats are going and this is where the value is what you were saying

before it's really going to be in the songs and how you can create songs and how you can you know the idea of sending out beats and having someone cut it and having it be a gold record is going to get harder and harder as beats get commodified. 100%. But that's, I love that to me.

I think that's cool. I think beats have gotten beats and good sounds and good access to drum stuff and all this stuff have gotten easier and easier, but making a great song has not gotten any easier. So I think you can end up with a lot more songs that sound great sonically, but no more songs that are doing innovative stuff or just as a great song.

I think that's cool. Going from being an intern, then going to NYU, producing a couple of artists, coming back and starting to work with Benny as a peer, and signing to his publishing company, did you feel at that point like you had made it? No, not until I had mood.

And I mean, I still don't think I've made it, like, at all. like not even a little bit but mood was the first time there's just so much more i want to do i think it's i've been so lucky to have two years of really big records but i want to do it for a lot longer than two years my goal was never you know to have a great year so i'm i don't know and that's what makes it fun too but i don't think i'll ever think that i made it it, but I didn't feel as if I had really got there until maybe, I don't know, maybe, maybe I think without you, there was a moment where without you and mood were number one and number two on some Spotify chart.

And I was like, oh, maybe I've kind of like done what I've always wanted to do. Or maybe I'm doing it, not done. Maybe I'm doing it. I think that's the difference between an especially. firing writer and a writer who's now a real pro is somebody who can finally recognize that they're doing

it because it's a process and you never get there. That there keeps moving and moving and moving and moving and moving. So there's a moment I feel like for most writers when they can say

oh, I'm doing it. And the hard part is like That's what it was for me. But you were doing it. When was yours? When were you like, okay, maybe I'm doing this finally? I think when I could go, I moved into an apartment where I had a few phases because I was like an artist for a while and I had gotten record deals, but it was so up and down.

Being an artist is terrible. but once I was a writer and I could I went from like I don't I couldn't pay my bills to like going to an apartment and being like I'm going to pay this whole year up front if you don't check my credit score and they were like and they were like okay okay sure

you know and it was because I had struggled to get to that point and I did it because of songwriting. That's when I was like, because I had already experienced getting record deals, publishing deals, but when I could just be like, here's a year up front,

then all the hits and all the other songs and all the career stuff that maybe I became kind of known for all happened well after that. So all of that felt like gravy. like all of it was like that just felt like it was just like icing yeah it was I could pay it because if the goal is to pay your bills as a musician and then once you can pay your bills from it I don't know I don't know what the next like I think I think I've moved a lot of the goalposts and I have a lot of objectives but yeah yeah I think for me the goalpost is always going to be moving and always going to be there are always going to be goals that I want and I'm going to achieve them and I'm going to go to the next thing. But at the end of the day, I can't believe I get paid to do this.

I can't believe I get to pay to sit in a room with my favorite artist that I was fans of before I met them. Or people whose songs I used to cover in middle school and incredible writers and producers, like every time I watch Omer play guitar, I can't even believe it's happening. Every time I watch Leroy right in the room, I can't even believe I'm getting to watch that. Like, getting paid to do that is just so beyond my wildest dreams that I think that's just, that's the goal. And that's always been the goal. And everything else may become secondary to that. But just getting to do that, that's making.

Yeah, and I think when you say, like, getting paid to be in the room, the reality is like, you're probably, I mean, maybe you're getting paid to go in the room. but most the time you're getting, you're not really getting paid. But you know what I know. The point of that that's interesting is like, it isn't even about the money part because you're not getting paid to be in the room. It's literally about being like,

I'm happy taking the risk today because of how amazing the people are that I'm around, that I'm willing to risk not getting paid today because this is so incredible that I will go and fight through this. if you spent the next 10 years working with Omer and Leroy and you never had another hit with either of them

you still would be like I can't believe I can go in the room with Omer and Leroy You're 100% right You're 100% right That's fine I didn't even think about it that way Because I never think about it

Money-wise like that Yeah you can't Because you have no idea what today's worth As far as like the money's concerned So it's like, you know, once you've, once you can sustain a long time of being in the room without, you know, the potential of not getting paid again, you know, that's the fortunate part. But let's talk about, you know, obviously something really changes. You go from, you know, Kevin Gates aside, you go from Omar and Grace.

to like this string that you're talking about. How do you go from, I've got four credits to essentially the biggest, you know, juice world and LaRoy and, you know, you're working with Omer and all this stuff, just explain like how fast that happened and why that happened? Everything happened really fast,

but it was all, I think, just like packing on the snowball and packing on and packing on and eventually just has to roll down the hill type thing. And like the Juice World beat was a beat I had made two years before. And a lot of these songs happened. We wrote them before we really had big songs. I think everything just kind of started happening. I when I met Omer and Golden and Beasy for the first time,

that's when things really kind of clicked. And I was looking for my whole music career for people like them that I really connected with. And we are both equally as passionate about music. And we've seen every interview and we love music just as much as the next person. But we both have different skills that complement each other. And I do a different thing than they. do and they do a different thing than me and I can't make what they do ever if I even tried and you know what I mean so when we all connected I think we that was just a crazy

chasm in the it was like a little it was a sonic boom for me like that happened it was like okay we're off to the races me we made mood then I met LaRoy with all of them and then me and Omer and Billy Walsh worked on without you with Leroy and then without you became a huge song and then we were like, holy shit, what's happening? We have two songs. And then we were like, okay, let's make more. And then stay happened. And then we met Nas and then, like, obviously there's so much under all of that and so many little things that had to happen and so many people that it never would have happened without. But kind of just right as COVID hit was when I, I met all of them the week before everything shut down.

Everything shut down. I took like two weeks, like not seeing everyone. And then I was like, fuck this. I got to work. So I started living in my studio and I wouldn't see anyone except for them. And we would just make music every day and got better and better and better

and learn more about how to push each other. And just great music started happening. Most people who've had a string of hair, have this experience where you almost can't go out in public without hearing one of these songs. Describe the first time you actually heard one of these songs in public.

I heard, I think the first time ever was hearing the Juice World song. I heard two girls singing it out of their car and I was so excited. I got like the feeling that you get when you're on a roller coaster when your stomach fully dropped. And I wanted to run up and be like,

I was a part of that. I did that. That's my guitar, blah, blah, blah. And after that, I think I heard mood on the radio, and I freaked out and, like, stop the car and turned it up all the way. And, yeah, just from there, just, I've heard it at parties. It's always really fun. I've heard mood and stay, like, one on 97-1, one-on-one,

no, 2.7, you switch over, and you're just like, holy shit, what the fuck is happening? All of those moments, they never really get old. Hearing it on the radio really never gets old for me. I always get excited because you're just listening to a song that, another song on the radio that you love, and then another one comes on and it's you, and you're just like, what the fuck?

It's not even me. It doesn't even feel like I made them. I got coffee yesterday, and I walked up, and a song of mine was playing, and it's this weird thing where, I know it's kind of cheesy, but I was like, I wrote this song. I was the only one in the coffee shop.

And there was two baristas. And they were like, what? I was like, yeah, I wrote this song. It's so weird. I haven't heard this song in so long. And they were like so weird. I think like, it's just like a weird. What did they say to it?

They were like, that's what I think one of them is like, that's really fucking cool. It is. It's so cool. And the other one rang me up. And then I took the coffee and I left the room and it was like, I think that's, you know, those moments of like, oh, that's right. This is sort of like a part of, this is when it becomes part of the life,

it becomes part of the soundtrack. It's like, that's such a weird moment. The worst is when I've had it like at least a few times where I've said that, like the same situation. You're the only one in a coffee shop. you're small talking anyway and your songs on and you're like, I wrote this and several times there's been like, oh, cool.

And then just keep going and you're like, ah, okay, yeah, no one cares about me, I forgot. Still a loser, not a big deal. Man, if you're the artist, you know, nobody, like nobody, you know, nobody knows who these people are in public except for the people who follow them. And there's so many,

there's so much information being consumed with such little attention right now that nobody's paying attention to anybody else. Like literally nobody cares about what anyone else is doing or achieving,

except for you and your, maybe your family, at most like. But which is cool. I like that. Of course, man. I love that. I'm a fucking loser. No one needs to pay attention.

Like, you know what I mean? I love paying attention to the people that I love and I have the most fun. I have the most fun. paying and like Instagramming every producer and looking in the corner of their story and seeing like oh my god that's the piece of gear that they use

like holy shit I'm gonna like oh what's this thing like I have the most fun doing that obviously of course the general public is not going to do that and that's not how it should be all the people who I work with I'm always in such awe of every artist that I work with because they're fucking they all deserve to be where they are

and they all are such like there are stars in the room they're in the room and you just want to hear everything they have to say and they're making everyone laugh and they were just born to do it and I have most respect for that I just want to talk about Montero for a second before we

you know I know we've already been on for a minute but Montero Montero feels like that's like an album that really feels like a cultural change differently than LaRoy and

you know the mood record like Montaro really like the whole thing is brings up bigger cultural issues and bigger conversations did you feel like it was doing that while you were writing it? Yes

and I think while we were working on that's what I want I was definitely I think all of us were pretty aware like wow this is a it's a love song from Nas and it's a very it's very clear that it's a love song so that that's a really cool thing I think not really until Montaro came out the song came out and I was like holy shit

this is just what this dude is doing for culture and for kids is is so monumental for in every way so that came out while we were working on it and I just thought I was just the biggest fan of the song and the music video and everything I've always been Nas's biggest fan I think he's one of the most talented people in music right now when he first showed us the music video and we didn't see he wouldn't let us see it until the night it came out we all watched it together on the night the album came out that I think was when I was like holy shit Yeah.

This is really a moment in culture. Like that music video is amazing. And it's brave and it's groundbreaking. And it's everything as a producer I want to be a part of is moments like that. So that was super meaningful because that takes a lot of bravery and a lot of guts. And for him to do that for him. for him and for kids all around the world,

I think will for sure be in the history books somewhere. So just to play any part in that, even the smallest part, is just special. I just feel lucky to have been a part of it. We're going to go to our next segment, which is

five for five. I'm going to list five things. You tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head. Let's start with Lil Nas X. Groundbreaking. Let's go with LaRoy. Also groundbreaking, but awe-inspiring too. Let's go with KBZ.

The funniest person I've ever been around in my life. Really? If anyone who ever gets a chance to spend time with KBZ, your life will be so much better because of it. Do you call them KBZ? Oh, yeah, yeah, BZ is his name. Omer Fetty. Groundbreaking, awe-inspiring.

I don't have enough good things to say about, like, it's, I take it for granted getting to see him make music with me every day almost, or even just when we do make music. It's really un-fucking believable watching him play his instrument and watching him listen to music and his take on music. And it's just amazing. He is so. the real deal. So, yeah.

You're a really good guitarist, and, you know, it's like, I work with Jared Sharf a lot. There are all these, like, great guitarists. And, you know, only a few of you guys who are, like, at a certain level of being able to make guitar into, like, loops and into hit songs. What do you think it is that he brings to the table that's, unique amongst all these some of these great guitarists

restraint I would say restraint and again you're always looking out for the song first you're always going for the song not for the cool riff or the impressive solo or anyone I don't think he's ever even played a guitar solo on anything like it's so not about

that for him. So I think that's what sets him apart. All these people, I'm always amazed by people, like Puth is the same way. Puth is one of the best jazz pianists I've ever met in my entire life. He's not making jazz records. You know what I mean? His rifts and his main chords

or maybe he'll sneak something cool in there sometimes, but it's always, it's simple. He's always going for simple. But great simple is the hardest thing to do. Yeah, tasteful. for sure. Always, always. Great simple is the hardest. It's really an art. And I think when you start making music, you realize that because you listen to pop music, not understanding that, and then think, oh, okay, I can do this. And then you go to sit, sit down and do it, and then you're in for a world

of just a whole new world. Betty Blanco. My brother. My big brother. That man means a lot. to me. All right, this is sick, so don't fault me. But Gracie Abrams. The love of my life couldn't mean more to me, will always mean the most of me. And also, all of those things that, like, she puts me in such awe every time I watch her write a song or listen to a song that she's written. Like, every time I watch her perform, I'm so impressed, not even as her boyfriend, just as her biggest fan. So, yeah, I'm, I don't have, you know, she's a lot to me.

Thank you for doing our podcast. I can't believe I'm on it. I still don't believe that you're going to put this on your website. I don't think that you're going to make the little drawing of me. I don't think it's going to happen. But at the very least, I've just had the best time talking to you. So thanks for talking to me. Man, this is going to be the first time of, I imagine many.

I hope that there are avenues for not just producers talking about how they were successful at the end of their career or while they're being inducted in the Hall of Fame. But it's important to be able to keep up with people who are in the just still on the rise. You had a great year, a great couple years, and that's in quarantine and in COVID. I can't wait until you can hear all your songs in a world where people are able to enjoy them to their fullest. I know. I've been really lucky forward to that.

On the contrary, what you've been able to do that most writers can't is that all the people have experienced your songs experience them very personally. So they've had a very different experience. These hits really touched a lot of people in their headphones at home when they needed like something. Versus it wasn't just out and about. It wasn't just while they were driving for, you know, another thing.

It wasn't in the grocery store. Yeah, it wasn't necessarily in a grocery store. And yet those, you know, like the story you told Joe in the beginning, like before we started recording about it. You were hoping that mood would get 100 million streams, and you're like, oh man, it really affected 10 times plus. You know, that many. It's still so fucking crazy to think about. I don't know how it happened.

Well, it happened because you're surrounding yourself with talented people, and you're staying humble because you're surrounded by talented people and you're a good person. I'm so honored to have been on this to even talk to the man who wrote my house is really one of the great honors. I'm fully serious. That's my favorite song. I love that song. There you go. That's your podcast, man.

Thanks for everyone that listened. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. Ross Golan, signing off.