And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 156: Craig Wiseman

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

Today’s guest is one of country music’s most renowned, talented and distinguished writers. From his early days of writing and drumming in Hattiesburg, Mississippi to being crowned Songwriter of the Century by ASCAP, he has indeed created for himself a monumental platform in the history of country music. As the writer of songs including Brooks and Dunn’s “Believe” to Blake Shelton’s “Boys ‘Round Here” to Morgan Wallen’s “Chasin’ You”, he has amassed over 350 cuts, 130 singles, and 29 #1’s. After moving to Nashville in 1985 to pursue a career in songwriting, he received his first chart success after having co-written “The Only One” from Roy Orbison’s album, Mystery Girl. In 1990, our guest signed his first publishing deal with Almo/Irving Music, and ten years later, he signed with BMG Music Publishing. In 2003, he opened his own publishing company, and within the first year of the independent company’s operation, he experienced the first single of the catalog; “Live Like You Were Dying” by Tim McGraw not only peaked at the top of the charts for ten weeks, but it also was named NSAI Song of the Year, CMA Song of the Year, ACM Song of the Year and won the Grammy Award for Best Country Song. In 2012, our guest co-founded Big Loud’s management division, the launchpad of Florida Georgia Line, followed by Big Loud Records in 2015. His success has continued to escalate at exponential levels throughout the years. He was proclaimed ASCAP’s “Songwriter of the Year” in 2003, 2005, and 2007 in addition to being named “Writer of the Year” by NSAI and Music Row in 1997. In 2009, he received the impressive honor of NSAI’s “Songwriter of the Decade” and won the 2014 Heritage Award from ASCAP as the most performed country songwriter of the century. Following those years of success, hard work & accomplishments, he was inducted into the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame in October of 2015. In 2017, he was honored with a CMA Triple Play Award for FGL’s “Anything Goes” & Blake Shelton’s “Gonna” & “Came Here To Forget.”. For the past 18 years, Wiseman has hosted The Stars of Second Harvest Show at the Ryman, showing his philanthropic heart and giving all proceeds to the Second Harvest Food Bank Of Middle Tennessee. To date, this musical event has raised over $2 million for the food bank. And The Writer Is… Craig Wiseman!Watercolor by: Michael Richey White  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey what's up, it's Paige MacDonald and this is your weekly music industry update. Universal Music Group via its Universal Music Production Music Division has quietly launched a new sample service called U-sampal.

Warner Music Group has announced the creation of 300 Electra Entertainment. The new label group brings together the multi-genre repertoire of 300 and Electra. The annual ANR Awards, which recognizes the the best of the UK music industry's creative community will return to Central London on Tuesday, November 8th, 2022. Steve Cooper, the longtime CEO of Warner Music Group, has announced that he will soon be stepping down from the position. Glass Note Records has partnered with The Orchard as a new distribution partner.

John Vosopoulos, who is the former Roblox VP Global Head of Music, has joined the advisory board of Dubit, which is a UK-based games designer for the Metaverse. Andresen Horowitz's Cultural Leadership Fund has launched its third fund, naming the Weekend and Frell Williams as investors. Anthony DePadua has been promoted to Vice President of Digital Marketing at RCA Records. The Nigeria-based record label Chocolate City has appointed Franklin Twiz David as its new president of brand, content, and partnerships in North America. The music licensing tech startup song clip has entered into a partnership with the National Music Publishers Association.

Spotify has launched its live events feed a new in-app destination for users to discover all the live events in their local area. Buck's Music Group has signed songwriter Catherine Williams to a worldwide administration deal. Adele has announced an all-female lineup for the British Music Summertime Hyde Park Festival. A big thank you to Hannah Rosenberg of Mega House for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne the Writer is. Guys, listen up. Last year we started working with LAMP. It's a school called Los Angeles Academy for artists and music production.

It's run by and founded by Stargate. Their mentor list is nuts. It's, you know, Benny Blanco, Tommy Brown, Tenache, Emily Warren, John Cunningham, you know, a bunch of people who've been guests on this show. So obviously we're fans of them, and this school has been amazing. And I wanted to bring them back this year so they can tell you an update on how LAMP is going and ways for you guys to get involved in LAMP. Tor, dude, good to catch up.

It has been a very strange time in the last year, but you guys are still trucking through, and it's even growing and growing. So I just want you to tell everybody, you know, what's going on? How's the school going? Well, as you know, Ross, the LAMP is a one-year high-level music program. We're in Santa Monica, California,

and we have a site with 48 students. They collaborate, write music, produce, every single day. And we started this last year. We're just graduating our first class and we're doing admissions for the next year now. And just the level of music that's coming out of this place is mind-blowing. We thought it was going to be hard to get people up to a professional level,

but people came in with a growth mindset, and they're already at a professional level. So these guys are ready to go out, because we create a real-world environment where it's just like being in a writing session. We pair producers with songwriters and artists, and we write songs every single day. Then we break them down once a week,

focus on the songwriting, focus on the performance, performance, the production, the beats, are the beats hitting, are the titles great, are the melodies distinct, is it memorable, what can we do to make it better? And that's the type of feedback you don't get in the industry, right? No one's ever going to tell you what you can do to your song to make it better. They just won't call you back. We have a program where it feels like the real world, but you get professional feedback from the best mentors in the game.

I mean, I can't imagine if we would have had this when we were coming up, just the ability to not only meet some of the people that you, you have coming in, but the ability to actually get that feedback is priceless because it took most of us a lot of not so good songs. Exactly. I mean, when we started LAMP, it was, you know, the mission was what can we give to the next generation that took us years to learn? What are the things that we wish we knew when we started out that we can tell people? So there's no formula, but there's definitely certain key principles that never change in storytelling, and melody and song structure, and all these key things to take your song from good to great, which is what it's all about.

You know, it's not about having a bunch of good songs. It's about having those few that are great. So tell me, if I'm a student and I come to Santa Monica to be at the school, what would a day look like for me? Well, typical days that we have mentors or workshop holders in the morning. We show up at 10 a.m. every day. And then by 3 p.m., you're in the studio. We have, 16 writer rooms where we have, you know, it's fully adept out with microphones and monitors and keyboards and everything. People bring their own, you bring your own laptop, and then you write songs and create music and try to make magic happen every day. That's our day and that's our week. If I can't get to Santa Monica, is there any way for me to still learn from school?

I assume not every student comes to Santa Monica. Is there an online version of it? Yes, we have an online program. which is just as big as, if not bigger, than the on-site, which is you get the same content. We share all the mentors, we share all the workshops. We put people in groups. So you Zoom or you FaceTime in with your group that week.

You create songs, you exchange files. We teach you how to record your own vocals, if you don't know how to do that. We teach you how to exchange beats, text over music, and then send that back and create a song by the end of the week, deliver it on Friday, and get feedback. Actually, you deliver it on Saturday now because some of the students have jobs, so we want to accommodate for that. Finish their song on Saturday, and the following week you get

feedback from our listening panel. Awesome. So admissions open now. How would I apply? You only get in by going to lampmusic.com and sharing your music. You don't need a degree. You don't need necessarily formal education. You only need talent and the ambition and the will to get better. So go to lamp music, that's L-A-A-A-M-P-Music.com. You share your music. We listen to your music, and we reach out, set up an interview, and we'll take you from there. Tor, congratulations on keeping this going. I just think you and Mikkel have been mentors of mine in many ways,

and I'm so envious of these kids that they get to do it. So congratulations. Thank you so much, Ralph. All right, man. All right. Thank you. Welcome to Ann the writer is. Today's legend is one of the most prolific and honored songwriters of all time.

He has written 29 number one songs and is a three times Askab Country Songwriter of the year. His songs help to find some of the most influential country artists, including people like Tim McGraw and Blake Shelton. And if all songwriters are entrepreneurs, then this one might take the cake. He is the co-owner and co-founder of Big Loud Publishing. and records. They've signed superstar artists like Florida Georgia Line and Morgan Wallen. All this to say, he has rightfully earned his spot in the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame. Born and raised in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, this man makes sure he gives back to his community like a true Southern gentleman. And the writer is Craig Wiseman.

Ross, how are you, buddy? I don't know how we haven't really hung out before, but I'm disappointed we haven't hung out before, but excited that we're now going to get... You know, I actually listen to a couple of other... You know, I'm a fan being that you're an actual writer doing this, and I'm a fan, so I've heard a few things. And everybody you talk to, I mean, like, like,

you're talking to my buddy, talking to my buddy Ross, and you're like, oh, yeah, we're hanging out. Oh, yeah, we talked about that before, and I'm like, hey, hey, like, you can't find me in a bar wrapped around. a beer or something like come on we're gonna have to fix that we are I promise next time I am in Nashville we will we will

definitely dive in and yeah I would I would love that it's on me man seriously let me up so you know your story is kind of nuts and you know I said it in the intro there are a lot of I think all songwriters are entrepreneurs they all own

assets and they're all trying to create assets and they're trying to create a business. And you've done some crazy things leveraging being a songwriter, but there's no way that if you're born in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, that you were born straight into the music business. Am I right? You know, I really am one of those guys where there was music in my family, but my mother and father. My mom would play piano a little bit, but it wasn't really there on my mother's side. She had some cousins and stuff that were pretty much into. So, you know, music does that thing where it'll jump over, it'll jump two or three generations, then over one or two rails,

you know, and do that thing. But no, I was not, I was not from, I wouldn't say I was from a musical household whatsoever outside of it. I was just always a huge, huge fan of music. I mean, my mom said all the way back to I'm old enough where she would play like those Disney storybook albums and stuff when I was a kid trying to get me to take a nap, man. I was just, man, I was just enchanted with music. I mean, just, music always was just a thing for me, man. I just was always highly distracted by the music. When there's, when it's not a musical household, how do you get exposed to music besides these Disney storybooks? That was just it, man. I mean, just straight up that and radio. And, man, there was a, there was an eight. There was a,

I'm old enough, man, where there was an AM station in Hattiesburg, Mississippi called W-F-O-R. But it was one of those old, cool stations that people have no idea. Heck, kids don't even know what a radio station is nowadays. But it was one of those truly before the mass marketed thing where they would play, where they would play Frank Sinatra and then Charlie Daniels band, and then the Eagles, and then the Eagles. And then it was just that, dude, it was wide open. And they just played all kinds of stuff, man.

And that's kind of where things began for me. You know, just that. I mean, generally, just a kid with the radio, a lot of that. What is it? I don't know Haddysburg. I've never been there. I've driven through Mississippi on my way to New Orleans. If you went from Nashville, you went through there.

because 59 kind of goes diagonally across the state. If you're from Nashville, if you were to go to Birmingham, then you get on Highway 59, which kind of goes southwest. Well, it kind of cuts over to Tuscaloosa straight west. And then it dives southwest through Mississippi diagonally to New Orleans. About 100 miles from New Orleans, you would have gone through Hattiesburg, Mississippi. And it's really, it's a college town. It's where the largest college in the state is the University of Southern Mississippi,

nobody's heard of it because they don't have SEC football, but it's the largest college in the state. It's a medium-sized college town. I mean, there's traffic jams and stuff there now when I'm there. I mean, it's, I don't know, it's 50, 60, 70,000. I mean, it's a town, yeah. Your parents work at the university? My mother actually was a professor there. Yes, she was a professor there some. My dad was a businessman and all that stuff. So maybe that's what kind of gave me some little business leanings and stuff. stuff. It was really interesting, too. I actually said this at some speech I gave where it's funny because I lost my father when I was 11 and he was a pilot and, you know, there you go. So, but I said it was

really weird because I got into this music thing and I never knew it. Dad would have thought about me making it in the music business. And but then the music business turned into the truly the music business for me. And then at some point, because I always remember his businesses and stuff, he was very, very big on, like, now every year we've got to have an employee party, we got to do so. He'd take everybody like deep sea fishing

and stuff like that. He wanted to, you know, he always was very, very big on, you know, people don't work for me. They work with me, and this is our team and yada yada. And so as I was able to bring that into my businesses as I started, it's so weird that I finally, at some point

you know, by my late 30s and stuff, I was able to kind of identify with that and hope that he was looking down and going, yeah, I hope I'm running businesses the way you kind of taught me and the way you showed me. And so I didn't get that connection through the music, but it was decades later that I got that connection with him. And it was kind of cool. Losing a father at that age is, must be brutal. I mean, how do you, you know, how did you, how did you deal with?

it made me a songwriter. I started, in fact, that happened right around my 11th birthday, so I was going into sixth grade. And sixth grade was kind of a blur. But by seventh grade, I would skip school, and I would just go to the woods, you know, just there would be those little woods and those little pockets of woods and neighborhoods and stuff.

There'd be like a, you know, a block area that was woods. And I would go there. I never forget where they, a ring binder with a denim ring binder notebook and I just started writing and I don't even know what I was writing. I was just sort of I don't know I was just sort of um I don't know I was also right when I started a beginner band and I wanted to play drums and stuff and so this is seventh grade beginner band so it's horrible right I mean it's just absolutely horrible but we went through the whole thing where we were playing like the sweet betsy's from pike and all those things all those

just almost nursery rhyme music, just trying to, okay, here's 40 people trying to play something. Let's keep it simple. But by the end of the years, we got better, we actually could play some real music we might have heard of it. I remember we did Michelle. You know, I show my bell, da-da-da-da. And I was playing, so we're playing, like, more or less just marching drum beats to it. But the first time we ever played it together, because that was back when they would separate you into sections to like, okay, just you practice that part.

Then we're all going to get together and try it all together here. The train wrecked it will be. And we were playing that. And in the middle of playing it, I started crying. And people were looking at me, like the other drummers were looking at me. And I had tears going on my face. And I was like looking at it because they were like, what's going on? And I was like, I was looking at myself going, what's going on?

And it took me years to realize that I think there was the first time that music like that hit me. And I think it kind of went down. So I'm right there at that age, man, where I'm, you know, between a boy and a man, you know, just starting to get those first outer bands of, I guess, my brain wiring or whatever. And I think the first time music kind of went down really, really deep,

which is where I think trying to do the loss of my father was. And something was down there with it all of a sudden. That's all I can figure out later on. because this thing would hit me so hard and I was sitting there crying, and crying in public in front of your peers when you're 12 or 13, you know, that's not, you know, that's not, that's not cool. That's not something you do. And, yeah, man, so, so there we go.

When you're off in the woods writing, whatever you're writing, but you're a drummer, are you writing melodies, Are you writing lyrics? No, no, dude, back then, I don't even know what I really don't even know. I mean, I had that notebook for the longest time. I probably still do somewhere, and it wasn't really anything. Because I was before, like, once again, I was before music. That was sort of, I mean, I look back now and realize I really do feel God's hand in that or whatever.

My, my, the grace of that loss and stuff, those things coming together. Because there I was just writing this stuff over here and there wasn't music. And then all of a sudden there was music. And of course, it wasn't very long before within a year or two. The whole reason I wanted to play drums was I could play in the jazz band because of high school jazz band. We had a pretty good music program because the University of Southern Mississippi was in my hometown, it's a very art school, it's kind of the art school. And they had a very cool band program that extended all the way down through the school system as a result of that.

So there was a lot of support and a lot of music going on, a lot of that stuff going on. So, yeah, so all that kind of happened before me. I don't know. It really is this kind of one of those things where even I have to look at it and kind of piece it together as if I were trying to, as if I were a biographer trying to piece together somebody else's life a little bit. It's a little weird.

Yeah, there's a great quote. I heard recently that memory and imagination are the same thing. Yeah, okay. amount of memory that we all are pretty sure happened. But it's really hard, especially like the further you get from things and especially when there's emotion and... Yeah, oh, absolutely. It all becomes kind of blurry. When did you start feeling like a stability in music as far as, you know, here you are trial and error?

playing drums, wanting to play in the jazz band. Did you start feeling like, wow, I'm actually a musician at a certain point. Or is it's... You know, I've always, you know, there's a bit of that imposter kind of thing, you know. And in some ways, I still feel like that now as a songwriter or something. I mean, I sort of... It was always... I never forget, okay, so I had a...

I wrote with Charlie Daniels one time. It was great. It was right when I was heating up. was a writer in the 90s and you know word came through hey charlie likes one of your songs would you do you want to come out to his place and write with him i'm like and charlie daniels was one of those guys especially charlie daniels here's the thing there was a song going back to that going back to that wf or the a m station right they played this song one day and i was just like i mean i by the time it was over i was literally i was like six inches from the radio stand because it was charlie daniel's uneasy

writer, which is basically one of those country stories songs. Because up until I always listened to rock because I was kind of a drummer anyway. So I was like more of the, you know, I like more of the Eagles and more of the, you know, just kind of rock stuff, you know. You know, Ma Maria and all that stuff,

just pop rock, you know, whatever. And all of a sudden, here was this saying, oh, I'll drive the Jackson. It's just to him talking while the music's kind of gone. And it was a funny story. And I was just absolutely like, there was so many things go like, Well, first off, I didn't know you could just even talk during music.

Like, he wasn't even singing. He was just talking, like, what the hell is that? That's breaking all kinds of rules. And then it was a funny story, and it rhymed, and it was totally cool. And it was like, holy crap. This is a, you know, so I actually called it. So I actually called the radio station. I could I get out of school, and I would listen to radio on the afternoon.

I called the radio station the next day. Hey, you play that, you played a song yesterday, and it was just, just that guy talking during it. And I'll never forget that you could hear the DJ. He had the DJ voice in the phone. Oh, yeah, that was Charlie Daniels, I need you writer. He goes, you know, it's not a single. It's an album cut, but it's one of my personal favorites.

And I was like going, I remember going like, what's a single? I mean, like, seriously, nothing. I was just like, will you play it again? He goes, he goes, he goes, well, he says, look, I got a lot of requests. He goes, but he goes, what's your name? I said, I'm crack. He said, so I was listening. every day after school, he goes, I tell you what, he said, I have a lot of requests to get through

my shift. He goes, but if you listen tomorrow at this same time, I will play that song for you. And I got, and dude, I got some school dude, I was frigging set my bike tires on fire, getting home to turn radio. And true enough, man, all of a sudden like, oh, my old buddy Craig out there, called and really fan of this song, and so am I. So he played it, and I was just like, and that was like my first interface with the music business in general. I'd never call a radio station. Here's this guy. And then he said something about a single.

I don't know what the hell that was. And he played the song again. And it was just this. So all that goes in this Charlie Daniels thing, right? So I drive out to Mount Juliet, to Charlie Daniels house, to the compound, I should say. It was just, you know, it's just vast network of barns and outer buildings and split rail fences and, you know, basically,

this guy's got a little money. It was so, and I go in this studio thing. I'll never forget, there's Charlie Daniels in a pink warm-up suit. I mean, hot pink, like peptidizumol pink running suit. And he, but you know, hey, what's going on? You know, yeah, I got on my guitar, and he plugs in this little pig-nose amp, man, it's just rock and roll, it's just, and it's anger. I'm like, okay, here's an old dude in a pink warm-up suit with a frigging,

seriously rock-and-roll guitar tone on his guitar. and we ended up writing a couple of songs, right? They ended up singling one of these called, what they called? American? Yeah, I'm so flush with this story. But so check this out. So this is like when I was first getting cut, right?

This was back when CMT was, when, so you had to CMT, but there was another thing called Great American Country, and they would just show the full names of the songwriters. And so this song came on, and it said, Charlie Daniels, Craig Weisman, that was back when they had phone books. So I'll never forget one morning.

I'm on, the video comes on, and it goes off. My phone rings at my house. I pick it up. Hello? Is this Craig Weisman? I can hear some little boy, kid. This Craig Weisman? Yeah, you go.

You thought? wrote that song. He goes, that song with Charlie Daniels? And I was like, yeah. He goes, yeah, I like that song. I liked that video a lot. Did you get to ride some of those horses that were riding in that big? Because they had obviously gone to his farm and some of the,

just some of the B-roll stuff was guys around on horses or whatever. He said, did you get to ride some of those horses? And I was like, no, no, I didn't get to. He's like, man, I really like that song. And I was like, well, man, I wrote his name. I was like, man, thank you so much, man, I appreciate that. That means a lot yada, yada, yada. And I hung up the phone.

And I remember, and this all goes back. I think I remember our original topic that we started on, when I started this, when I started this digression 20 minutes ago, this all goes back to I hung up the phone going, I was like, I could not accept, like there's no, because I was that kid back in the day. in that Charlie Daniels song, mesmerized, just absolutely, my DNA was getting reordered. And I was like going, there's no way that that kid is hearing something that I wrote, even if it was with Charlie Daniels.

There's no way it could have that effect on somebody else that music had on me. Like, surely not. And I'm still kind of there because I was always just, I'm still just, I'm still just, a fan of music and people will say something. They like my stuff and all that stuff. And of course, and I'm very grateful. And I really do consider it all just a huge blessing from God. Just for whatever reason, you and I both know. I mean, you're a very successful writer,

very successful guy, but you and I both know people right beside us doing almost the identical task who are starving to death and probably will die in poverty and obscurity. And here we are, you know, with frigging, you know, nice fancy mics in front of us. have heard of guitars in the room that probably cost more than $100 and, you know, for whatever reason, here we are. You know, here we are doing great. But still, I sort of have, there's a bit of me that's like, no, sure, no, I'm not. I mean, look, okay, look, I work out at it hard. I write some pretty good stuff, but I'm not writing that really, really cool shit that people just really,

really fall for. I mean, come on now. I mean, come on, because that's, that's serious. That's serious. I'm just over here doing the best I can't. You're kind of half on the, you're half on the imposter syndrome and half not, because somewhere, you know, one is that's, you're recognizing somebody calls you and his influence,

and that's long before the, you know, being inducted in the Hall of Fames and things like that. So, you know, something drove, you to move to Nashville at 22 years old. And that's the part that you can't possibly see as like an imposter syndrome because there's

some, there's this moment when we're, when all the difference between the guy that's next to you that doesn't quite make it. And the guy who makes it is that the guy who makes it goes at 22 years old and moves away from home to pursue songwriting. So what was it that moved you from Mississippi to Nashville? Why did you do that?

Who said this is a good idea because we're taught if you're not living in Nashville or L.A. or New York or whatever, that there's no hope in you pursuing the music career. So somebody told you

that you have the opportunity. Well, You know what happened? Because once again, I was very ignorant to the music, but I was in a band. I was playing, I was touring in a band and stuff. And I was just doing regional, not even touring, really, you know, going and playing a week or two weeks in a bar here or there or whatever.

Everywhere from Bogalus, Boagalus of Louisiana to the Florida Panhandle, just, you know, just doing that thing. Just, you know, a lot of times holiday ends or whatever, or Howard Johnson's or, you know, are just local bars. And I had started by then, I was writing a lot of songs. I was just writing every day, writing a lot of songs. And the band started doing a couple of them. And it just so happened that the lead singer and all that stuff,

there was a kind of a money backer guy, which basically was a guy who paid for the lead singer had like an uncle or something who was an attorney in Jackson, had some money who'd given him some money like to buy a PA or loan, and whatever. There's one of those, you know. But this guy was kind of our backer or whatever, but he wanted to meet this one time.

And Steve goes, hey, man, we need to someone. and so wants to meet us and I was like, really? I was like, well, the band? He was like, no, just me and you. So we drove up there to Jackson. He was like, yeah, that's great. And he had this contract. He was like, yeah, I want to get you guys to sign these things and everything.

It's for me. And I was just like, and I'd read enough music business books. It was like, never sign anything without an attorney. And as fate would have it, my mother, who is, who is, she was actually working on her Ph.D. at Vanderbilt at Peabody in the education administration. But she would take these trips to Nashville to meet with her advisor. And we happened to have just like a week off

or whatever. She was going to go up to Nashville for three days and I was like, I think I need to ride with you to Nashville. And it just so happened to Peabody, literally, this is all weird, is on that side of the campus across from the hospital, which literally, puts it where Peabody backs up to Music Road. The campus literally touches like 18th Avenue. Then there's 17th and the world famous 16th.

My mother, Parks and Carpardt, Peabody, I literally walked down Edge Hill, which I own an office on now. I walked another block down to Edge Hill to 17th and looked over and saw this sign of the yard going, so I was a music attorney at law. And it was Ken Craigon. It was when he was just a lawyer. And I literally walk in this office.

and I walk up to a secretary. I mean, dude, and ignorant does not begin to describe me. I mean, I walk in and I just go, hey, look, I got this contract in this dude, and look, I don't want to get in a whole lot of stuff, but I'll give a lawyer 20 bucks to look at this just real quick and just give me just a quick little, and she was like, sir, you have to retain her.

I was like, retain her. I was like, no, my teeth are fine. I don't need anything. I just need a lawyer to look at it. And thank God, one of the kids, one of the junior lawyers was over. I'll never forget he was in the copy machine, you know, in his Oxford white shirt with his jacket off, sleeves rolled up. And he just started, he was over there laughing at me.

So I'm getting laughed at too. And finally he goes, you know, like, Susan, I got this guy. Come here. What's your name? Come here. Come here. He takes me in his office. He doesn't even sit down.

He just goes behind a desk. I was like, look, I got this contract. I don't know what the hell is going on. I'm not supposed to sign anything. I read it in the book. Charlie Daniels So this guy is just flipping to his contrary He's going to his, uh-huh, uh-huh, he goes,

well this guy wants all your publishing for like 10 years And I was like, well, it's publishing. And he's like, yeah, okay, yeah, great. He goes, yeah, you're not even getting a draw or anything. I was like, great, well, it's a draw. And he was like, And finally he just goes, look, tell you what, I give you 20 bucks not to sign this.

this and throws it back across the desk at me. And he goes, man, if you're a songwriter, he said, just come to Nashville. He goes, he goes, you can, we'll get you a deal. I was like, what, what, what's a deal? He was like, man, he goes, they sign. He goes, and he actually mentioned, he goes, you know, so on. So he's like, he's like, look, he goes, there's a lot of guys in bands where the songwriter from the band then comes to Nashville and gets a deal right in song, because they're the guy that wrote the songs in the band. That sounds like you, you should just come to Nashville and be a songwriter. And I was like, I was like, because the whole reason I was in bands at that point was,

like, you're looking at the Eagles going like, well, Don Henley and Glenn, they write those songs, but they need the vehicle of the Eagles to get them out there, which is why I was in bands. And I was like, I could just come to town and write songs like, yeah, he goes, we get people deals all the time. He goes, yeah, do that thing. He goes, I'll help you get a deal. I'll help you. And I was just like, so I went back. I mean, this was, this would have been like during the summer.

I went back and told the band, I was like, how far out are we booked? I'm like, well, we got these dates. You know, we were, like, regular band. We were booked out like four or five months, whatever. And I was like, whatever our last date is, I was like, I'm giving that notice, whatever that is, four or five months, plenty of time for you to find somebody else, whatever. I'm going to move to Nashville.

and I just, man, I just, I don't know. I just didn't, I didn't really think about it. It was just, I wanted to be, I wanted to write songs. I wanted to be a songwriter. I wanted to be, you know, and I can't, and I literally spent my first week in town sleeping in my, I brought my drum set in my van, and I spent my first week in town sleeping in my van because,

well, first of all, I wasn't going to just stay in a hotel. I had a little bit of money. I had a couple thousand dollars saved up, but I wasn't going to spend, what, 50, 60 bucks at night for a motel or no. And I had my drums in my van, like, well, if my drones get stolen, that's it. I mean, that's how I eat, man. So I slept in my van and tried to find the cheapest department I could, and boy, did

I find it, and started, man, started looking for gigs and started. Yeah, I look back now, because at the time, I was like, well, of course, I'm going to do this and this. And I look back now and go, how in the hell did I ever do that? I really have done that several times, like going, you know when I was back there? I don't want to say I saw me here, but I did, like, I just dreamt to get something on the radio and doing that kind of stuff. Like, I saw me somewhere of where I was at, clear as a bell. And that's the, that's the vision I was going for.

But now that I'm, I've actually done it all, and there's actually a real story. From here, I look back on where I was at going, how in the hell did that ever happen? the thing is even you going to Nashville at that point it seems like oh well you know Craig Wiseman moves to Nashville becomes an instant success and it's just easy but you go into Nashville and

in probably what's more a natural story of somebody's success is like you battled for years with no hits I mean it's not that you didn't get some of these gigs, but there's a huge difference between, you know, somebody saying, hey, come here, you'll write, you'll do, you'll get a deal, and having cuts or hits, I think people assume that a lot of hit writers are prodigies, but, you know, the Shane Talley's or the, you know, extreme more like the Barry Deans or whatever, that's,

People don't just wake, they don't just wake up writing hits. How did you even survive in Nashville for what I think is basically nine years of living in Nashville? I was lucky enough because at the time, and especially now, there's lower broad and there's all these bands and everything. That lower Broadway didn't exist back in. It was dark and dangerous. A half, a quarter of it was papered over and it was porn joints and stuff. The only things there were like, Tootsey's, Ernest's record, Ernest Tubbs record shop, Robert's Western World.

That was about it. And then there was a couple of porn shops. And then I try to tell the kids, and I, like, there was no lower broad. Everything happened around on the Youth Road. The Country of the Hall of Fame, all that was on Demandrum. All that, you know, that's before BMI tore down. The BMI, their new big building is where the old country in the Hall of Fame used to be. I, however, was lucky enough.

So I went and was hanging out on Trent. Lane at a place called Real Country, or EEL, where they actually showed old videos. Dude, I mean, this was like, you know, this is, and I was trying to get a gig, and somebody said, man, he goes, there's a guy up in Madison who's,

I'll never forget, I took directions from a blind drummer on how to get to this bar to try out drums with these guys. So a blind guy gave me directions, and I went there, and I got my first, gig and I've been in Mississippi you know, dude, you know, making, dude, five, six, eight hundred dollars a week

cash, you know, not really worried about taxes, what are taxes on? I'm a kid, shoot man, you know. And dude, if you're making this back in the day, if you're making $6, $700 a week as an 18, 19 year old, it's like, I'm, dude, I'm killing it.

So I get here, I get a gig there in Madison at this place that we're pretty sure was a Mafia Tax Haven thing, the Italian restaurant on top, this thing below. $25 a night, seven nights a week. Dude. So it was like, wow.

So that band, it ended up loving that band. It was great. The first band I was in where, because most bands you're in, like, we're going to make it man, we're going to do all these things. Everybody was there to kind of like the guitar player, want to be a session, guitar player. The scene wanted to get a record deal. Everybody kind of had their,

So we never were like, oh, our band's going to be this great thing. We were together out of necessity to eat. And it ended up being the best band I was ever in. And we had the most fun. And everybody was pro enough to have moved to Nashville. And we had this great band that was like we had a blues piano player from St. Louis. We had this guitar player guy who was this. We had a cowboy lead singer from Gillette, Wyoming.

There was me on drums. It was just totally cool, absolute frigging, just smorgasbord of guys. And we all kind of hit our thing. And as a result of that, thank God, everybody liked our band. So we got hired away from there after seven months to go play six nights a week for $35 a night, which was a $10 a week raise. And by then, buddy, I felt it. But I also had a night off so I could finally start going to Douglas Corner and places like that and be a songwriter some outside of.

And you play the 3 o'clock in the morning and I go home and write. I just stay up to go to Music Row at 9 or 10 o'clock in the morning so I could go home and crash by noon so I could go to sleep till 6 so I could get you ready to go to the gig and yeah a lot of hard work man a lot of hard you know just a lot of what's the difference between the writer who's in one of these cities that's that is hustling you know to try to make it being somebody. who writes, of course, one of your first notable cuts is the number one hit for Tracy Lawrence. But like there's, you know, we all go through these years of writing in sessions and more sessions. And, you know, your team is telling you just keep doing it. And you just don't know why your songs aren't hits. And some people are giving up around you. some people are getting successful, but they don't even write necessarily as well.

You're doing all this. All that stuff, dude. It's all going on. What's the difference, though? And then not to mention, I always love this, the barbarians at the gate whenever you're out there, and the conspiracy theory is, you know, run rampant. It's just all these, this entire town came about as a construct to keep me away from the money and any success. This whole thing was set up.

to screw me over. I mean, just like, yes. How'd you finally ever figure that out? We have a meeting about you every Tuesday morning, dude. How to keep you down. And I was like, you know, it's... I mean, that's the basis of... I feel like, what's Music City memes is then that the Instagram,

like, there's still a lot of people who definitely point out the... It's just this feeling of you've the next single that's on not making the album. You have the next single. That's on not even being an album track. Literally, there, it's like, it's a lot of, uh, there's, I think they call it like the Nashville, yes and the Nashville no. You know, it's like, yeah. You know, everyone has their version of it.

But there's definitely a Nashville yes and a Nashville no. Well, you know, man, I mean, you know, I think, I think that's all part of it. And that's why I still tell kids these days. It's like, you know, it's not a question of, you have talent and all those stuff and instincts and all that stuff. It's not that, man, it's all a head game. And basically, and the head game never ends because they're just level after level. First off, can you get here?

And it all comes down to, I really do believe this, because people were like, how'd you do all that stuff? You know, all that early stuff you did. I mean, you could have, you could have, you know, wasted 10 years, 20 years, 30 years of your life, you know, and obscurity, you know, that kind of stuff. And I was like, I never thought about that. The only thing, only thing I could see was just, I'm just trying to get to that next room. I'm just trying to get to this next place. I want to do better work. And I just want to, and I just work.

And it really, it's that old high school, I call it the high school coach talk where the old, some of there's goals and obstacles. You know, you can only focus on one. Are you focused on your goals or are you focused on your obstacles? Because if you're focused on the obstacles, they're always going to be there. And it's kind of game over for you, man. because as we all know, it's far easier. You can train yourself to be negative and pessimistic

and basically kill your heart and your inspiration. You'll learn to master that instrument far faster than you'll learn to master a guitar, and then you'll learn to master how to write really good lyrics. That takes years and years and years and years of dedication. You can make yourself a sour, burnout in months if you try hard enough. And we all know those people who tried pretty hard and made it.

And congratulations. But that's the thing, man. Like I said, I'm just lucky. I said, I was just sort of in that bliss. I just didn't think about that shit too much. And everything I've done now when it comes down to starting a public agency company, starting a record label, I was just like, well, that's next. Here we go.

And then other people come around like, well, man, why did you do that? What's going on? I mean, didn't you think about this or this or this? I was like, no, not really, not, not. I mean, you know, and the thing is I guess some of it's like, yeah, of course the music business. Yeah, of course you can go down on flames. I mean, yeah, okay, you know, also you rise back up out of the ashes, man. You know, whatever, here we go.

In 1994, you have your first real hit hit. You know, you had a publishing deal at that point for a little bit. So you were getting by as a songwriter and as a professional songwriter. writer, but there's a difference, again, between, like, getting songs out there and having that first, you know, ringing the bell for the first time and having people kind of recognize, oh, you can hang. Once you do that, you're... You know, it's funny because my first number one was actually with Tracy Lawrence, called it the Good Die Young. And there's a funny story about that, because I'd got my first

deal with Almer Irving, which was A&M. publishing branch here. It was called Rondor in L.A. It was called Alma Irving here in Nashville, but it was all A&M records, you know, Herb and Jerry and all that stuff. And the famous David Conrad was the publisher. I got signed in 1990.

And just junior writer, I mean, there's Mike Reed, you know, and Mike Reed, you know, scoring Grammys right and left, and I can't make you love me and all. So I mean, some serious dudes. It was a very boutique publishing company that had some Ken Robbins and Mike Reed, and just some serious, serious, serious, dudes, man.

And they didn't really have a whole lot of kids. And this is one of their young Chris Oglesby was her young songplugger who was like, man, we need, I got eye on this kid. I was the only kid there. I mean, everybody else was like frigging, driving a really nice car. You could pick out my car in the parking lot real easy,

the one's smoking. So, you know, but as you well know, the interior thing to that is you go, well, you get that. So what it happened was I was starting to write. I was just writing all the time. Dude, I was writing, dude, seriously. I would leave.

I would get up in the morning where bedhead, be out of my house, 20 minutes after waking up. I would stop at the MAP Co, get my $5 worth of gas, get a cup of coffee and go down there and write and quite possibly come home at 9, 10 o'clock every night. I mean, just, dude, it was just doing that thing. But trying to write. But then these others, that's just it, though.

other songwriters who really did have hits and stuff they started and i see it now they saw that drive they saw that not quit of me so they started going hey man let's let's write let's go do something so i started getting to write with them and i started getting to hang with them and go drink beers with them and stuff and then and i was i guess i was a likeable enough guy or i got to be everybody's buddies but i was the guy i'd never even had a hold or a cut with these other like serious songwriters So it just so happened that Dave Gibson, this guy had written a bunch of stuff for Alabama and all kinds of stuff. He and this guy named Paul Nelson,

who had written a bunch of hits and was kind of in the Tracy Lawrence camp. And Paul Nelson was very much about the business and music. Dave was going to start trying to go for a record deal stuff. And I went to a number one party just because that's where the free beer was. So I was there. Just, you know, thank you. And Paul and Dave were talking. and Dave just goes, well, yeah, you're going to sign that record.

He said, I guess I'm going to lose my Monday writer. And Dave, they were laughing about that. And as soon as Dave walked away, I was like, Paul, I would love to be your Monday writer. And he was like, all right, well, I'll see you Monday. It's Fire Hall, which is Sony had the little thing. Had the part of their thing where they had this old fire hall that was writer rooms. I was like, yeah, I'm writing with Paul Nelson, who's a well-known songwriter and all this kind of stuff. Which by then, I was writing with big songwriters and stuff,

but I was like, I'm right with Paul. It's going to me. Great. Here was the trick, though, because I'd been a drummer, I couldn't play guitar that well or anything. I'm still horrible at guitar. I mean, you ask somebody, you want me to actually pick out some notes. You will grab the guitar from me just out of, just to save yourself. You will grab the guitar out of my hands, tempted to just bash me over the head with it, so I'll never commit a crime again. So I go walking in the session, but all these other guys I'd written with, like Dave Gibson and all these guys, I mean, they're all frigging. And my guitar literally half the time was stay in its case. I walk in in Fire Hall, of course, I'm there like an hour early because it's serious shit.

So I'm there. And Paul Nelson walks in with a spiral note bucket, throws it on a desk like, hey man, what's up? And I'm just like, dude, where's your guitar? You're just like, I don't play. I don't play. What are we writing? And all of a sudden, I went from, I can barely play guitar to, I'm the musical director of this outfit all of a sudden. And this is another thing I tell people because people are like, well, I can't do this.

I'm not really good at this or anything. I was like going, dude, you have no frigging idea. So, of course, I just got my guitar. And we wrote a couple of songs and everything. He liked one and one kind of got put on a hold for somebody or whatever. And then here was the big thing that happened. I wanted to write something up tempo. So I just started playing something fast.

You know, I started just, I mean, literally just rock and roll thing. And just, you know, just classic rock and roll three chord thing. You're like, well, what do you want to say? What do you want to get? And I literally started almost an autobiographical story. When I was a kid, our family went to church early. And so I got away from and went out back, started playing in the woods behind the church and got my, I had a new Sunday suit and everything.

Of course got that dirty. My mom freaked out and ended up writing this quasi, but it wasn't really about it. But think all the, if the good die young. about kind of a wild-hurt kid. And we wrote this thing, and he goes, man, he goes, I'm going to play this for Tracy and Tracy Lawrence and everything. And Tracy, who's blowing up that alibi's song at the time, which is a huge, like, Song of the Year thing.

And the next thing, you know, they're going to cut it. And, you know, it's first number one. But I say all that to say, a lot of people think, like, well, there's where your career begins. your first and one, then you're in, but as you well know, that networking and stuff and getting other people before that, beforehand, all that has to go on quite possibly for a few years of where you're finally getting in good rooms and people recognize that you're really after this thing. And at the time, I didn't realize it now, but now that I'm in this state and I sign young

writers and stuff, I know exactly what they saw. And that's exactly what I'm trying to sign right now. If I got some kid who is just, even if they're bad, like, dude, it doesn't matter if you're bad. It's kind of like somebody who's just in the kitchen 18 hours a day and everything they're doing is burnt. You're like going, hey, it doesn't matter that half the shit you cook is burnt or raw. If you're in there 18 hours a day, it's not going to be very long before you start figuring this crap out. And that's the thing. It's the desire to be in that kitchen. It's just you're frigging in there.

and you're going to figure some stuff out. And I guess so. That's where I'm at when it comes to signing kids to the publishing company or whatever. Man, that's what I want. I want that thing of, I want that thing of, man, I'm talking a lot, dude. Would you talk, tell me about yourself.

What's going on? How you do? I'm just, the two kinds of writers that are difficult in a publishing company one is the person who thinks that their talent will do it enough, who doesn't necessarily go and do the 18 hours, because the 18 hours in the kitchen

is what makes the other chefs around you also recognize, like, the drive. And they'll recognize that sometimes more than the flavor of the food you cook, you know, if we're using the analogy, you know. that writer is going to be really difficult. And the other one is the one who, you know, the first time in the kitchen cooks the best food that they've ever, you know, that anyone's ever tasted, but no one knows who they are.

And so it's complicated when they still have to go back to square one a little bit. Otherwise, you're taking a hit writer and they still have to build that network. They still, you know, you can. Yes. And look, look, I know you have young, I know you have young riders listening to this, and I want to tell those young writers. And, dude, I have been in this town. I mean, dude, over 35 years.

And I've been watching this writer game. I've been in this writer game, watching this writer game, publishing company. dude, I have seen them come and friggin' go. And I can tell you that almost, almost without exception, perhaps the greatest, the biggest curse in disguise, as opposed to blessing in disguise, is somebody that comes to town and has that first big old number one, first big old hit, just literally falling off the turn-up truck.

And because they rarely ever recover from that, it's just this thing of all of a sudden it kind of basically it's it's kind of like if you're playing video games where you're halfway through level one and all of a sudden boom okay now you're on level 10 which the thought of that just for a second is like hell yeah I'm all up on level 10 and all these other guys are barely at level two until every alien cuts you in half on level 10 because some of somebody you're playing on level 10 and you're not you're you don't have that game so so it really is the thing. Like I said, I rarely see people who've done that and hang out and do it.

It's far better. And I'm telling you, all the young kids out there, those struggles and stuff you're going through now, as much as you hate them, as much as you want to get to that next room. And I want you to get to that next room, too, because this world needs the best music we can possibly get, man. And it's going to be up to you guys to come up with it.

And, but, dude, you need to because this is not, man, this ain't a friggin' summer project, man. This ain't, I mean, it's just, it's writing hundreds, if not thousands of songs and just frigging doing it, man, blowing and going. It's being in that kitchen, 18 hours a day and not caring like, man, if I'm starting to figure out, like, man, if it's oatmeal, it's just oatmeal, I don't need to be trying to put a friggin, I don't need to be trying to put an asparagus in it or anything.

And then if it's fancy or whatever, and just all this stuff, it's just there's so much to learn. and when you're young especially, learning what not to do is just as important as learning what to do. So, obviously, I feel like I wasted my time doing this or that or whatever. It's like,

yeah, but you're not going to waste your time there anymore because now you know and you didn't before. And so learning where to really kind of put your time, really learning where you finally figure out where your gifts are, where your talents are, where those things are, and being able to finally laser focus in on that shit,

that's that's that's that's that's crucial but to get to that point you got it man it's going to it might take years to figure out like man you know i was doing i kind of wanted to do all this stuff but every time i do this stuff people react and it's like well duh so maybe kind of keep it over here so um shout out to camera montgomery after that who is you know a friend of both of ours who helped you like both of us have seen and i know he's a about to pop as a writer and it's fun to watch that because that's like that's a good example of somebody who just hustles his way in so yeah i just i had written with cameron in a while and just wrote with him um man what was that about a month ago caught up with and everything it was a total

zoom thing i was writing with a guy with my old buddy steve mcuin in new york cameron and here i was in nashville that was a total zoom thing of um yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm way you can't cameron is trying to Yeah, he came in Nashville and that went back to L.A. and all that kind of stuff and just, you know, just looking for it. But once again, just did not quit, did not just kept on, man, just shucking and jiving, baby. Yeah. This is an aside, but like a head of a label called me about him yesterday, and it was just such a satisfying thing to be like, oh, nice, these people are recognizing, you know, talent.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, again, having hits as a. is one thing when it's an artist that you're connected to the writer or something like that but in the mid-90s

and late 90s this is like you couldn't find a better time to be hitting a stride because it's a different era where there are album tracks there's a different era when there are superstars

who play arenas and the string of hits and the names of people you start working with in the 90s. puts you in a different echelon of kind of writers because it's just, I mean,

I think by the time you got inducted into the Hall of Fame, it says something 90 million albums or something stupid like that, and here you are writing with Faith Hill in the beginning of her career and Tim McGraw and Kenny Chesney and you're part of their,

each one's like, you're really helping define them as artists. You know, and when you see, say that you were writing songs that you don't think are cool, what do you call those songs? What do you call those experiences? I don't know. I mean, I don't mean it in that way.

I mean, the songs were cool and to write them was amazing. And I mean, like, that part was just frigging excellent, man. Shit, dude, to be lost in the song is to be, it's, man, it says, as close as you'll ever walk with God, I think. I mean, you always hear that, like, you know, God is, you know, whatever, you know, he lives in an absolute time where there is no time or anything. I think as you will know, when you're in a song and you reach it my famously,

when you go get a cup of coffee, you're doing a song, you're still in a song, you reach out for your sip of your cup of coffee, and it's ice cold, and you look up and realize like, wow, I got that coffee four hours ago. It feels like I got that coffee four minutes ago. And that's, man, those are the good days, man.

Those are the, oh, I just don't think about that too. I'm just not, you know, kind of, I don't know, dude. Yeah, I mean, yeah, those songs are, they're great to me. They're, there was, I mean, I don't know, that's weird. Like I said, that's just a weird for me that I just don't, I just don't kind of step out like, well, no, I'm doing great stuff or anything. I'm just sort of, for me, if I'm, for me, it's always just that, just the art and the execution of that.

And that's what I've always been, that's where, like, look, I love writing songs like you are dying and the good stuff. and these life things that are really really great and everything. But I also love writing these stupid songs about drinking beer, you know, and doing stuff because all I want to do is, did I just capture that little moment of life? Does it just take me there? Does it transport me there a little bit?

And the there doesn't really matter that much. It's just if it's executed, if it's executed honestly and passionately, it's like that entertains me. thrills me. Like I said, I just sort of have the, it's always a little fuzzy when it comes down to other people and like they think that's amazing. It's just like, that's always just a little bit like, wow, really? That's cool. I mean, because it's still like, wow, great. I think when you write a song every day too, you know, or Nashville style where it's, you write a song Monday through Friday, you know, you do your rights and you do, you know, you write your songs that

you can count on on making sure that there are days where it's like, you know what, today, I'm going to take a risk and I'm going to write a song about whatever because people will have a session the next day or you know you'll write with the same people next Monday and you don't have to worry

about, you know, in the pop world, you know, I have a session today with some people I've never written with and it's possible I'll never write with them again or it's possible that it's a great moment but there's a little more pressure because you don't know what

you don't know what you're walking into versus hey today I've got an idea and it can be as ridiculous as you want you know could be drinking beers of dolphins or something like that in fact I've always tried to I've always liked to write a funny song or parody or whatever

every now and again just to do it I mean just to kind of just to kind of do that I think it's good too where everything is not where everything is not just this thing. Because invariably, I think, I mean, as you well know, I mean, it has to be the journey and not the destination because the destination, I mean, Dolly Partney even said it. She was like one out of a hundred songs.

And that's if you're kind of hot. You know, that's kind of, you know, it really is. So if you don't, if the act itself, if the writing itself, if the creation itself does not fulfill you and is not fun and it's only about the result. you're putting so much of your self-esteem and all that stuff. I mean, it's the old Zen thing. You know, be careful of giving power to things that you don't control.

I mean, and there's, as we know, there's a big problem in this business. So many people give so much power to shit that is completely out of their hands. And so I really tried to, yes, so the joy of writing the song. But I've also said as a songwriter, that is the great thing I've been in a songwriter. there's sort of this thing where the worst you do, the least people hear of it. It's kind of the opposite of all the social media stuff now.

So if you write a horrible song, well, if you write a really, really horrible song, nobody will ever cut it. So nobody ever knows it. Then if you just write like a pretty good, bad song, you know, maybe it gets cut, but odds are, it's a pretty good, bad artist is going to be the one that cut it.

And they're allowed to be dropped before that record comes out, or if the record even does come out, nobody's taking anything serious on them anyway because they suck. And so your song is just in the pile or whatever. Nobody blames you, you know, you can trouble. You know what I mean? So it's sort of,

that is one of the great things about being a songwriter. Like the worst it sucks, the least, but only the good stuff kind of stands out. So, but as a songwriter, I've actually said, I've said so many times, say it's like, that's the joy and the gift of writing every day. And I tell every young kid, especially these ones that they wrote little precious,

I just want to write something like, dude. Like, you never know. You need to your right every day. After you've run out of ideas and everything else too, I love just coming into a room just like, we've got to make some shit up now, don't we? Nobody has an idea. Everybody's burned out. It's Friday. We're almost here to summer. Like, that's today's one reason why I did this interview today. It's like, I'm getting kind of close to the end of my run, and it's Friday, and I'm kind of getting a little, I'm the tank's a little empty anyway. So I would much, I would much rather do this interview from this guy that I think is cool, then come in here again, like another idea, another like, whew, yeah, let me have a

Friday off here. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go, I'm going to go for a walk after this and have a Friday off. And, you know, but, but yeah, to write every day, you do kind of get that thing. So I can do a thing where like, man, I just want to do punk rock for a while. I want to just write two weeks of just punk rock, nothing slower in 188 beats a minute. And just a doug, doug, doug, and just get it out of my. And just get it out of my system and no way I'll ever know. But I'm a better writer for it because I got that out of me. I worked out some frustration. I did some stuff I wanted to do, yada, yada, yada. And there you go. So that's the great thing about being able to write, writing every day. You can literally just go

like, I just want to do that. And I highly suggest any writer. First off, write very, very often, all the time. And second off, just give yourself a break. Everything. Everything doesn't have to be a George Strait or Ariana Grande Cut or something. Just give yourself a damn break, man. Just calm down. Just enjoy the damn, you know, it's kind of like a car. I mean, you don't have to just drive to vacations and just drive to work. How about just taking a little Sunday cruise every night again?

Just because it's a nice car and it's a nice day. Just go enjoy it. Holy shit. You know, what a concept. unbelievably concise and accurate you know I was going to

you mentioned live like you were dying and you know that and and believe and some you ended up having hits and then you had these records that started getting nominations and and a

and it can 10 years after having hits and I think that's one of the things where when you're in life and you're in these things and one out of a hundred is still a hot writer, you know, you hope that you have songs that still come out, but you can't really count on those kinds of hits,

and you ended up with a bunch of these hits that really sort of continued to launch your career further and further. And I know we have a limited amount of time. So I've, like I said, oh, you got to go write a song. That's right. You're strapped to it, dude. You can't get out, man. You're lost, man.

You're lost in the highways, buddy. Come on, man, pull out. Drink a beer, man. Have a PBR with me. Come on, man. Well, I guess here's the thing is, how do you do with start getting, like, songwriter of the year?

When did your imposter syndrome ever lift while you're writing that big a song? You know, when you're writing songs that are NSAI song of the year, CMA song of the year, ACM song of the year, Grammy Awards. Like, literally all those plus Ask Up song of the year, 2003, 2005, 2007. This is 10 years after you're getting in cuts.

You know, it's not like you were getting that. It's not like you, you know, you get your first hit in 1994 and 1996 you got songwriter the year. It wasn't that. It was 10 years of still more grinding to then have this like string of, you know, just like legendary years. Did that only enhance your imposter syndrome? or did that, did you have...

You know, I don't really want to give that too much luck because the whole imposter syndrome, that's just that little, you know, that's just that little voice in the back of your head a little bit. I mean, it's not like that thing is, you know, it's not like I'm grappling with it or anything. And once again, I try to think about it, man. I just, I just want to, I want to do my best work, man.

I want to write, I want to write as good a song as I can. I want to write a song that inspires me. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, okay. along the line, okay, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a, you know, I'm a, and you know, the thing is, the weird thing is, it's not those moments where I put another something shiny on the mantle that I feel like a songwriter. It's when, like, I know this has probably happened to you, man, and this just is the coolest shit ever, where, like, you know, in Nashville, you know, there's a big 98 point, you know, the SIAX, you know, it's the big country station.

And so, so if I've got it on, going to work, and I'm at a red light or whatever, there's my song on the radio. I'm just like, holy shit, yeah, look over at the car beside me and somebody's mouthing the words along with it, you know, tapping on their steering wheel or something. Those are the moments where it's just like, wow, holy shit.

Look at that, man. Look at that, just a sighting in the wild. Oh, my God. It's just those are the moments where it really is like, dude, this is actually going on. This is working. Your song in public is a, is the, is the, is really, big goal in a lot of ways because that's that's why most of us do it is because that's what got us

excited why would you go and spend time writing because you ended up writing some books why would you go and write a book period and then hard stop and then you know when the focus has been music for so long well well the book and all i you know the book was a companion thing and live like you were dying because it was so huge. And man, writing a book is, especially for something like that, because it's kind of an inspirational book anyway, dude, writing a book as opposed to writing a song, is freaking excellent.

Because with a song, as you and I both know, like, man, you have to like, oh, my God, okay, I got to come up with this thing, I've got to figure out, you know, all these things. I've got to kind of wrap it with a bug. I got more or less kind of have a hook of some type of thing. I've got to have this catchy chorus and all these things. With a book, you can just go, you know, I've always thought about this and just sounds

and it's funny and I don't know what to make of it. Okay, next page. I mean, it's just like, dude, that was easy. I mean, it's like, it's kind of like writing a book is just all those things that you kind of kick around in your head when you're trying to even figure out like there seems like there's a song in this somewhere and you're kind of kicking it around and you're starting to kind of, you know, in little embryonic things, you're starting to form a little bit.

That writing a book is just all that crap. You're just sort of, man, you can just, you know, yeah, and they're like, great, New York Times bestseller. It's like, dude, sign me up. It was like, it's freaking, I really was. It was great. It was a lot of fun. It was a, and we had a great editor and stuff, and it was just like a song, or just like

whenever you're kind of in the middle of a song, I would just shoveling stuff. And he was just like, okay, yeah, cool, cool, yeah, just here, here, here. and probably wrote twice as much as went in there. Because once again, you can just kind of think about it every day or two for an hour or two and just ramble awesome stuff and send it out and there you go. And then go write a song. You become a successful songwriter.

You become a successful author. And why would you, why in 2012 would you say you know I feel like there's a chapter I want to fill I'm going to now start a record label what's the point of what's the point of moving on and doing this I mean I guess I understand the point but

what was the impetus that made you want to go when I look back at I realized look I'm bored easily and the thing is the fact that I've been doing this every day for this long kind of amazingly so So I kind of looked out like this. I got my first writing deal in 2000. I'm sorry, in 1990. And was there until 2000 with Almo or with A&M until they sold that publishing company.

And so I sold my catalog and went to BMG for three years. But the whole reason I sold my catalog was by then, and especially when I went to BMG, as I told you, when I was first at Almo, I was the kid there, right? I was the young kid who was calling people up at midnight, you know, with verse ideas and stuff. So over that 10 years,

I've turned into this writer with, I'm going to think by the time I left, I had seven or eight number ones and two or three hundred cuts, two hundred cuts. And so I go to BMG, who bought my catalog. And thank God they had just started this thing over there,

called like 18, 18, 18, 18. Because they had corporate, you know, money pressure. And so they were able to sign young kids, it was like, okay, 18-s-a-minimum, 18 months, $18,000, just so they could sign some kids. It's really pretty cool. They kind of a crash course thing.

And there was a bunch of kids around there. And all of a sudden, and I'm Craig Wiseman out of a sudden, and these kids are just hanging out of me and all that kind of stuff. And a young Luke Laird, 20 years old was one of them. And basically, I'd go on there, and I'd get the coffee pot, and they'd just all be hanging out with me and everything. And I'm like, I would have a cancellation. So I was just like, hey, look, so Luke,

So Luke gets in. So I'm like, Luke, I'm canceled. Come on. Let's go write. And we write this song that Kenny Chesney immediately puts on hold. Immediately. And that's great, man. Oh, like a few days later, it's midnight.

My phone rings. And I'm like, oh, my God, my mother. Something's wrong, mom. Thinking out, like, Greg, dude, Luke, shit-faced. Man, I love you, man. Yeah, man. I love you, man. It's like, you, man, you think Kenny, man, is Kenny going to cut this?

What are you things? I was like, Luke, I was like, dude. I was like, look, I don't know what's going to happen, man, but I can't tell you this. I was like, I don't, I can't tell you what's going to happen, but I know what right now, what you are, what we got is we've got one of these songs in a very, very, very short pile of songs that Kenny Chesney has on hold. And they'll never take that away from your anything else. This is official.

Kenny called me about the song, said he loves it. Yada, yada, yada, yada, man. Congratulations. And it was his first hold ever. And I hung up the phone and laid there laughing in bed. And I went, you know what? And the thing is it hit me because by then I had seven or eight number ones, you know, a bunch of guys. And I realized like, dude, I've already gotten so cynical to where if I don't have lead off single, I'm all like, oh, what the hell is wrong with you?

you know, and here's this kid calling me shit-faced drunk, you know, over a hold. And I'm going, I remember, man, getting a hold back. I mean, I wouldn't sleep for two days when I got a hold. And I was like, I want to stay in touch with that magic, with that, with that. Because that is the best, man. That is the shit. That is the crack of this whole business and this whole thing. To be aware of your blessings, man.

I mean, that's just it. It's not just to be blessed. to be aware of your blessings because that's where we all blow it. And I was like, yeah, because I kind of thought I wanted to do a publishing company, but I was like, yeah, okay, that's it. So I took that money from my catalog sale, and I bought a house on 17th, and the day my deal was over, I opened up Big Loud Shirt Publishing. And the first week I wrote a little song called Live Like You Were Dying,

and the rest is history. So, but so I say that to say. So I was a writer for 10 or 12 years. So then I had my own publishing company. And during that time, I saw an ASCAP writer the year. But that happened for about 10 years. And I had a publishing company at that point.

And then we had a bunch of success and all the kind of stuff. And then that's what really is that thing. And all the time, as you're a songwriter, and as you know, man, you're like, man, we got all these great songs trying to convince other people you've got. great songs. That's day one as a songwriter, right? And you just get tired of that. Like, dude, now I know, because I know that the song I wrote the day before this one and the song wrote the day after this, both been on to be number ones. Well, I wouldn't this song in between

be just as good? And I'm tired of trying to convince people to see that. And that's when I was like, so my, Seth England, my young, my young Spark Plug guy that runs everything now. He was a young intern there and everything. We started going, man, we just get some, like, like we're getting cuts

right and left. Do we still have hits? Just lots of great, because by then I had Rodney Claus and Chris Tompkins. I mean, Grammy guys, right left,

boom, boom, boom. It's like we still, even after everyone, even after Jason Aldean and, and, and, and, and Blake Shelton and Tim McGrone

after, even after all these guys cut the stuff, there's still this huge pile of really, really great songs. We're like, we should, just find a band. We should just start.

Let's just, I'm tired of asking people to get it. We should just, let's go find a band or two or five. And the first band we found was Florida Georgian Line. And so there you go. So you kind of, I mean, so it's not so much that I need to go on to the next thing or anything. It's just you kind of evolved to that point of this whole thing. I guess that's where the dichotomy is. So here I am with that imposter syndrome.

At the same time, I'm going like, hey, this is the best shit there is, and I want to get it out there. Yeah, the syndrome, though, like I think a lot of people are driven, you know, it's the recognition, of it where people are, you know,

are excited. Dude, if you walk into a room of aspiring country writers, like you personally cannot walk into a room and be left alone. Like that is not, and that's where like the imposter syndrome sometimes like, this is crazy that people would want to meet, you know, would want to meet me. But the imposter syndrome isn't the knowing that your work is at the highest level. Like that's, that's you at your core. So I think that those are different.

It's almost like the way people perceive success is the imposter syndrome. the way you perceive your talent and your drive is, you know, you. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that, yeah, because I don't, I mean, you can't, I mean, you have to associate some of it with success and stuff, but once again, I do my best to try to keep that weeded out. Once again, that challenge of, man, you really need to be mindful of giving power because it's you that you give power to things that you don't control. You give it to it.

Don't be sitting there like, oh, man, this really pissed me off because it pissed you off because you attached a bunch of expectations to it. That's why I pissed you off. There's all kind of stuff that happens every day all day long. In fact, think of the billion things that happen on planet Earth every day that you don't give a shit about, or at least that don't affect you to your core because you have not attached anything to those. and so this other thing

so the music business thing but that's all part of the man that's part of the head game thing but um some of the artists you sign are so are you know Florida Georgia line and Morgan Wallin and now Harvey and stuff

you've got like just some amazing you know a list of a list talent that you've signed on the record side of things um how do you know in this era where it's all you know if you if I were to bring somebody

to a label they would ask about what their social media imprint is and you're coming from it being a guy from Mississippi who writes good music who's like a you know it was a drummer first who had to fake his way through guitar playing like I can't imagine that you're super

hung up on how many followers an artist has look look don't get me wrong there's a couple of kids that we've found through that and we're developing them and stuff. At the same time, if you'll notice there's a bit of a theme there, Florida Georgian Line, those two guys are great, great songwriter. Morgan Wallin is a stunning songwriter. There's another guy you haven't mentioned.

I suggest you check out Hardy, who writes with and writes a lot of stuff for Morgan and stuff, and has his own stuff. Check Hardy out. Hardy is absolutely that once in a generation comes to Nashville level rider. And the guy, I'm telling you, dude, I'm telling you, this week, I guarantee he's probably written four songs that you would love every one of them and two that you'll never forget this week. And then there's last week and then there's next week and that's going to keep happening.

That guy is right now in that super incandescent, just frigging, holy shit. shit level right now of man. Yeah. Yeah. So, and so that's kind of it. We sort of, you know, we're kind of old school now because I guess it sort of got into like people, you know, in the pop thing. And I think probably ever since MTV, if you have the right haircut, you're halfway to a record deal right there now, aren't you? So, you know, I'm kind of, I'm kind of on that side of. We kind of want, we kind of want, like, seriously talented people. We kind of, and we're looking for those.

But the thing is we can also develop those, too. We can find those kids that got that thing. And if you want to get in the kitchen 18 hours a day, cool. We got a great kitchen over here with some other chefs with some other chefs that can show you how to stop burning your shit. But if you'll show up 18 hours a day,

we've got some people you can get with and everything, and you can hone your craft, and you can get that thing going. And I like that we're actually, but it's all said and done. and I hate to kind of say this, but it's kind of a singer-songwriter label. And I could not be more proud of it.

And think of that, that wasn't a game plan. It just turned out, you know, wow, okay, here's shocking news. Turns out the people who are super talented that can write great shit and perform well, that kind of stuff, just like, oh, duh. You know, so that's what's kind of, that's, it's sort of, it's kind of that. We're just kind of looking for, we're kind of looking for, like,

really talented people. And then Joey, of course, Joey, one of the partners, me and Seth and Joey, you know, the three of us are partners in this. Joey Moy, an amazing producer. He is very much about that, that iconic voice.

He wants that iconic voice seriously. So between some of us over here, like the song has to be at this level, Joey's, the voice has to be at this level. And of course, his production is just beyond. And between all that, you can put together some good records. If you hold your standards up, you can put together some good music.

We're going to go to the next segment, which is called Five for Five. I'm going to list five things and just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Okay. All right. Let's start with Tim McGraw. Wow. Yeah, he kind of changed my life a little bit. I love, okay, so here's my life.

happened with that. He's produced for Byron Gallimore. I love, I was just starting to kind of come on as a writer. And I saw Byron Gallimore in the parking lot of a restaurant. He goes, hey man, you know, Tim kind of likes some of many stuff, man. He goes, look, he just wants some different lyric, man. And that's what I love about this. There's so many people who they want to pitch. Like, no, they want these kind of songs. They want this. He didn't say anything about the songs. He goes, man, Tim just wants a really, really different lyric, man. He just, and he likes your quirky stuff. So set off stuff some different lyric. Didn't, you and the Nashville call is always uptempo, radio, uptempo, y'all. Didn't say anything about music whatsoever, just quirky, different lyrics. I went to the publisher company, I put together

cassette, that was back in the day, with five songs on it. And because all I was thinking of it was quirky weird lyrics, there was uptempo weird stuff, there was strange ballads, there was this weird, you know, kind of haughty weird thing. Five songs. Tim Cut, four. of them. And I went on to write everywhere for that album with Mike Reed, with the great Mike Reed. But the fact that that's what, because I was back when you're at that age, man, you would look through a pitch sheet just, man, until blood drop formed on your forehead,

you know, just trying to, that three-word synopsis, you're trying to read, you're reading in paragraphs. And what do they mean by? say, when they say timeless up tempo, is it time less? Like, does that mean they have a time sign? Turn out. Time, time. Time is it. Just these pitch sheets, you know, that are just the most, I mean, they actually make a horoscope look specific, you know. So these vague pitch sheets and you would just spend hours pouring through them. And that was a great lesson there where Byron just said, man, he just wants some quirky lyrics. Just anything, whatever the music in the song is,

He wants some quirky, weird lyrics. And it was like, well, I got that, but it turns out they're all kind of different songs. You would never have pitched these five songs together, but it wasn't, but I wasn't music. It wasn't a thing of trying to put together music thing. So when it comes to that for Tim, Tim's a true, I think Tim's a superstar. Tim is that old school guy like George Strait, too, where he doesn't write at all and doesn't want to write. but he's an absolute killer at understanding his audience and picking his songs, the old school artist in the truest form of just knowing, knowing kind of,

he's on an artistic journey because he has cut some albums that have not been all that well, succeed radio-wise, success-wise, but he's going to do that. I really respect him. I always have. He's, man, Tim is kind of his own dude. That was a long answer, sorry. No, it's good. Blake Shelton.

Blake, oh my God. I'm getting cuts on Blake, but nobody knew who Blake was. And Blake has always been the most gracious, cool. That guy you see on TV, that guy, he is that guy. He is the most gracious, down-to-earth dude.

And he has reached that point, too, where there's all this superstar persona stuff going on. And then all of a sudden, you go see him at a concert, he sings the song, you realize, like, oh, yeah, he got a record deal because he has like a record deal level voice. He's like a really, really good singer. And, uh, wow. Yeah. So, yeah, Blake is, and Blake is a real deal, man. He's really, it's proud to have him out there representing

Nashville and country music, um, and all that and all he has done. Joey Moy. Joey Moy. is like a Michael Jordan type dude because every now and again you get somebody who's born with so much talent and instincts and heart and then they have

a work ethic that nobody can match and you put all that together and it is frigging stunning absolutely stunning the guy right now is just

I mean I work. I got no problem working until 9 or 10 o'clock at night or whatever. And I walk out and see his truck and his spot. I mean, dude, the guy is frigging. He's amazing. I mean, you can't help but love him and pull for him because he just hustles so hard. And not in that, and not in that, you know, I got to do it trying to make money, trying to do away.

He just wants to make music, but he just wants to just make great music. And because he mixes and everything, you know, the Nashville thing, you get a lot of times, there's a mixed guy or whatever. Joey's doing it all. So he has his rig of his house and all that kind of stuff. The guy puts him, anybody that comes up through it, as we all know, the engineering, to come up as an engineer is probably one of the hardest past just when it comes under the hours you've got to put him. Because we all know when you start off as a junior engineer, when you start off young, I mean, it's just 20 hours a day. It's just relentless, seven days a week. I mean, you're just doing everything. And Joey did all of that. And the fact that he still puts in that kind of work. and that kind of passion and care. He's frigging, Joey Moy is, I really, I consider,

I've kind of looked back and realized now that I consider myself fortunate to call him a friend and a partner and a producer who will, I still, if I can get a hold on Joey, dude, me getting cuts on my own record label. It's as hard as any freaking record label I ever. I mean, dude, as it should be, but me get, if I get a hold on Big Loud, I'm like, I'm Luke Larry, I'll call you up drunk, I'll call you up drunk.

Ross, I love you, man. I got a hold baby. Yeah, man. Stry, big, blah. I was like, yeah, Joey Moy, man. He's freaking, he's a beast. How about KK., your wife?

Oh, man. The ultimate collaboration right there, my friend. The ultimate collaboration right there. The dance. You know, she's a creator too. She's a minister. She's a, you know, she's the MDiv from Vanderbilt. When we first met, she was working in advertising and stuff and all that stuff.

So she gets me, she understands, that's what I really appreciate about her. She always, you know, she understands this passion beyond. That's why I think a lot of people have problems in the youth business with marriages and relationships that work, because the other person, for the most part, people don't understand the only passion you're supposed to have is for your other person. And so all of a sudden, here you are with a passion for something else besides another person. and besides them. And that's very, very challenging to a lot of people. She's always gotten that, man.

She supports me. She's good. She calls my bluff. She's a real deal, man. She's funny. She's sardonic. She's a, she's a tough gig, man. She's, you know, it's, it's good, man.

It is. It's, God paired me well with that. It's a challenge. It's good. But like anything else, man, you know, the shit you got to fight for. It's the stuff that's sweet. week. So we're 27 years accounting, man. So far, so good. All right. And then finally, your mom? Oh, man, my mom. You know, mom was a professor at the

college. My father flew off one day and didn't fly back. She had to leave all that to try to take over a little bit of family businesses we had, a little bit of real estate, a little bit of that and everything. She walked away from her dreams to just handle life. And I thank God that I've never been asked to do that. I get to do my shit, man. I get to do my shit. Nothing has come down where I've just got to just go, well,

so much for what I want to do, here's what I got to do now. Amazing, amazing woman of faith. stayed a woman of faith through all of that. You know, the real deal. I mean, I mean, everybody loves her mom and they should, but my mom, I respect. And especially when I got old enough to realize, because I started hitting those scenes.

I started hitting those things. Like, when you hit that point, you go like, wow, how many age now the mom was whenever when dad died. And it's like, and that all happened. That would have happened to her when she was about 40, 41. You know, 40, 41 was right when I was in my power curve and doing great.

And, you know, and just about to open a publishing company on, like, what if you had to walk away from it? What if, you know, I realize, but, man, you're really just getting your life locked in at that point. And for hers that just completely fall apart, there goes my dad, there goes, she's got two boys, you know, 11 and 13. 13. Holy shit, man. That's a gig, dude. You know, as I got older, I started realizing it's not, and I don't just love my mom. I respect my mom. She frigging, that was some hardcore shit, man. And she, um, she did it with flying colors. She, um, selfless and beautiful and, um, and full of faith the whole time, you know. well thank you for in the podcast you know early on when you mentioned your your dad and if you would have been proud you know that you look back and you know for him to think that you'd be doing music and but that he was

a businessman and that's sort of you know probably where you got some of that biggest you know business acumen from it would be hard for him not to be impressed and proud and when you talk about, you know, and maybe it's not even the business stuff, maybe it's the fact that even when you said when you called that radio station and then this kid calls you and says, hey, are you the one who wrote this song?

When you think about how many, the effect you have when you're a publisher and you work with all these different writers who are each writing hundreds of songs and you work with all the as a writer you work with all these artists who are playing for this many thousands or millions of people you know

you've affected so many humans so many humans in the exact way that you were affected and whether you'll ever know that or not is sort of irrelevant it's just like you you did it either way it was like you've done

you've done so much good. You've put out so much positive music out in the universe and I just appreciate your career and you know, everyone knows of you and I'm just glad to now know you.

Man, those are high words of praise, man. As do you well know, man, there's the greatest compliments when it comes from your colleagues and the people that really appreciate you know, what all goes into it. I appreciate that so much. I am, like I said, I'm just forever grateful, man.

I feel like I'm the luckiest man on earth and I always have been. For whatever reason, this stuff continues to work out. And it's a blessing to be around these kids and watch their dreams come true. It's a blessing to walk through them. You know, Morgan's had a bit of a year here. It's a blessing to, he's a friend. And he is, he's a friend and our concern for him and our love for him. It's cool to just wrap him up in that love and like, hey, let's just get through this

and let's just get on down the road, man, and to just be there for them and just like, hey, man, life such as life. And you know what? And this could very well be, this could be the best thing that ever happened to you. And we'll go on down the road and figure out if that's the case and all that stuff. So to be there for those kids and tell that stuff. And for any young kids that are listening to this, they're struggling in their career.

I had a great songwriter. I love it when I was first starting to get in those rooms with writers I've heard of. before. And I was like going, yeah, man, well, he's going to get a cut and do this and everything. He looked at me and he stopped and he goes, Craig, look, he goes, hear me now and believe me later. He goes, you keep thinking your career and your time and your music. Like, it's all up here. He goes, you're already in it.

He goes, man, he goes, the stories I tell that people want to hear that they love and I love the most, all the good parts are when I was like you, man, when I was just struggling. And me and my buddies were digging, digging change out of car. seats to go by a six-pack to go go stare at the river and write a psalm he goes you're already in it this is already you're already in the dream and it's already the cool shit's going on right now so don't be too frustrated with yourself and by God he was right the stories I tell now the fun stuff that's when I was sleeping in the van and playing them bars and trying to meet and just it is you're all you're already in it you're already in your dream and so just don't

be so hard on yourself and just kind of, there's a little romance to that, man. People are like, oh, man, you slept in your car. I was like, man, at the time, I remember kind of digging it. Like, dude, I'm sleeping on my car. It's freaking great in Nashville. Yeah. You know, so that's just it, man.

Just hang in there. Man, this really is part of it's not so much, I mean, that whole thing. Be in the now a little bit, man, because the now, these are, you're already in it, man. You're already in it. You're already doing it. already cool as shit. Promise.

Promise. Amazing advice. Thank you so much. And we'll grab a beer in Nashville soon. I owe you a PBR R7 there, Ross. So let's go empty some buckets, my friend. Yeah.

Holla next time you're in town, man. Absolutely. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.