And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 159: Sabrina Carpenter

Episode Date: August 8, 2022

Today’s guest has enchanted an audience of millions as a singer, songwriter, actress, designer, producer and style icon. In her music, she has delivered one anthem after another on stage and in the studio, earning multiple gold certifications, and performing to sold out crowds far and wide.  On-screen, she has generated mega-fandom throughout television and film. She had her first leading role in the 2019 movie The Short History of the Long Road, which premiered at The Tribeca Film Festival with rave reviews and earned her the Jury Award for “Best Performance” at the 2019 SCAD Savannah Film Festival. Our guest also led the cast and executive produced Netflix’s Work It which debuted at #1 on the platform upon its release in 2020. In the same year, she made her Broadway debut starring in Mean Girls. She then starred in Justin Baldoni’s Warner Bros feature Clouds (Disney+). Her growing musical catalog encompasses gold singles— “Thumbs”, “Sue Me” and “Why”—and the albums Singular: Act I & Singular: Act II. Of her music, Time Magazine wrote “she’s one to watch” and V Magazine added “With two successful pop albums and a hard-hitting social commentary under her belt, Carpenter’s career has matured faster than many of her Disney-bred predecessors.” In addition to her growing list of acting and music credits, in 2020 she was selected for Forbes’ prestigious “30 Under 30” list. She also co-stars in the recently released comedy thriller film Emergency (Amazon Prime), which premiered at Sundance Film Festival. Our guest recently signed to Island Records, where she released her newest smash hit singles “Skin,” “Skinny Dipping,” “Fast Times” and “Vicious.” She just recently released her studio album, Emails I Can’t Send, on July 15, 2022. And The Writer Is… Sabrina Carpenter! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, what's up? It's Paige MacDonald and welcome back to Ann the Update is where I share your weekly music industry update. Music industry veterans Hank Forsyth and Dan McCarroll are teaming up with Carlisle Global Credit to launch a venture called Litmus Music, which will focus on acquiring and managing publishing and recorded music rights with Carlisle Global Credit committing an initial $500 million. Spotify is introducing separate buttons for shuffle and play, which will allow users to pick whether or not they want to listen to an album, playlist, or an artist in order on the Spotify app.

Universal Music Group has promoted Frederick Boyle Mott to CFO and EVP of business development for Africa, Middle East, and Asia. Several record labels, including Universal Music Group, Warner Music Group, and Sony Music Entertainment have settled a copyright infringement lawsuit against the U.S. Internet service provider Bright House Networks on the eve of a scheduled hearing in Florida court. The downtown music-owned B-2B distributor, FUGA, has appointed Sarah Landy as SVP of the Americas. The U.S. Music Division of Artists Management Company YMU has named Elena Aubrey as executive manager. One RPM has launched a music publishing administration service for clients.

Go Digital has teamed up with MEP Capital to acquire the U.S.-based NGO collective, described as a new generation Latinx digital first media and entertainment company. SoundCloud has started the process of reducing its global staff by approximately 20%. Spotify has quietly stopped producing its in-car hardware device called The Car Thing, crediting inflation, supply chain disruptions, and the product's financial viability. Muso, a London-based data company that tracks global piracy and unlicensed media consumption, has received a $3.9 million investment from UK-based Puma Private Equity. Beatport, which is an online retailer and subscription streaming service that specializes in electronic music,

has named Matt Grayland as Chief Financial Officer. Merlin, the Global Rights Agency for the Independent Label sector, has selected Kyle Elwyn for the newly created role of People and Culture Lead. Symphonic Distribution has acquired marketing agency, streaming promotions. The music commerce app single has secured an investment from online shopping services platform Shopify. Louis Bonilla has been promoted to chief technology officer at Sound Exchange. A big thank you to Hannah Rosenberg of Megahouse for gathering today's news.

Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne the Writer is. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's superstar artist fashion icon is not just an actress and TikTok star. She's not just a great singer and showwoman. She's also an incredibly honest and sophisticated songwriter. I know because we're besties and we write together a lot sometimes. If there's one thing I've learned from this podcast,

it's that experience is worth more than someone's age and this 23-year-old signed her first major record deal nine years ago. So she's put in way more than 10,000 hours, and you can hear it on her new album called Emails I Can't Send that came out today, July 15th, which is not the day that we're releasing this podcast. But it's an honor to still have the first exclusive conversation and the only conversation that you've had, of course, about this album, right here on this podcast, this masterpiece, all the way from here on the internet.

It's a pleasure to welcome one of my favorite collaborators. And the writer is Sabrina Carpenter. What a mouthful, Ross. Hey, friend. Hi, wow. I didn't know I was a TikTok star. That's really exciting news for me. I don't know.

So somebody said that you're a TikTok star now, and I'm like, really? That's not really like, that's not, that's not like how I, like, it's just, I'm the, I'm the- That's great, though. I mean, honestly, like, it adds a new title every day, you know? I'm very honored to be doing this with you because you know how I feel about it. So thanks for having me. Well, okay.

You know, full disclosure to the people listening. It's like we literally have spent a lot of time together and we have written a lot. So this is this. I feel like I've been lucky enough to know you long enough now to see, you know, the progression. from, you know, the beginning of your music career to where it's at now.

And I feel like we can see a trajectory. So I'm excited to go through a little bit of your history. And I understand, you know, you've talked a lot about yourself because you get interviewed all the time. So it's not like it's hard to find a lot of information. But I think as a songwriter, one of the things that this industry doesn't do well is, that they don't recognize many female artists for being the artist that they are. There's this impression that that female artists aren't driving the creative on their careers,

that they're not in the studio making real melodies, real lyrics, real changes, and even when they're doing songs that they didn't write, that they're somehow not choosing what songs they're recording and so on. And the irony is that most of the male pop stars that we know are the ones taking the outside songs, not contributing to their writing and don't have that skill set. And so I'm excited to have you on. I'm excited to have you on because if anybody who's worked with you

knows that there's not a song that you've been a writer on that you were not massively involved in. On the melody, on the lyric, you're a very funny and witty person. So that said, this is a long enough intro. Let's just go a little bit from the beginning. I mean, you're born pretty far from L.A. and the entertainment business. Very far.

Yeah, very far. So what is it like growing up in Pennsylvania? What is your life, you know, before you're the person we meet? This is a great question. And I do think I am the person that people meet because of where I grew up and because of the fact that I was kind of dropped off in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania. close to Bethlehem, close to Allentown, like the Billy Joel song. That's kind of where I grew up.

And there was a lot of music in that area just in general. But more specifically, I would say, you know, my love of music and the stuff that I grew up listening to really came from my parents. Thankfully, they had taste, so lucky. And they really raised me with some incredible artists and, you know, people that truthfully inspired a lot of this album for me. And I think the fact that I was kind of growing up in the middle of nowhere and I was homeschooled, crazy. I had to use my imagination so much more to keep myself entertained. And also it was kind of like the driving force that I just had ever since I was born. I don't know why.

And I still ask myself questions about it. To this day, like why have I always been so driven to do what I'm doing now? from such a young age before I even knew what any of this would consist of or what it would, you know, entail, I just always had a really clear vision of what I really wanted to do. And I'm very lucky that where I grew up kind of like helped me get creative because I was bored. Why were you homeschooled? I was homeschooled. I started homeschooling in fourth grade. So third grade was my last year in public school.

And one, it was a combination of kids were very mean. And the other side of it was, I think that was kind of even when I knew that I just wanted to start like singing and writing songs and acting at the time. And I just already knew. I was like, I need to clear my schedule. Like, I need to be homeschooled. I need more time to like do this and focus. Like, I'm not joking. I have no idea where it came from.

But I just knew. And so I kind of started homeschooling from that and out. My sisters had also done homeschooling. So it was something that I looked at that I was like, oh, like, you know, they're not any less intelligent. They're not any less productive because they've, you know, they've been homeschooled. We did like virtual programs. So it wasn't like my parents were teaching me. It was like online school.

And then once I started, you know, working in the entertainment industry, like I was doing school on sets of films and stuff. So I still had like my education. It was just as I was working. So, yeah. When you're raised in a town where you're saying, like, kids were mean. Yeah. Do you have specific people in mind that were specifically mean? And is there part of you that when you say you don't know where that motivation was to go do all these things?

Was any of that a driving force? Well, it's funny you say that because the memories I have of where kids were mean was because I would sing in my talent show and, you know, they would make fun of me or because I would verbalize like how big my dreams were and they would be like, yeah, okay, Sabrina. Like, you know, and so I think, yeah, that definitely was a huge part of it. But it wasn't the driving force. The driving force was just, I love this. I want to do this. This is fun for me. I can see myself doing it for the rest of my life, even though I'm literally.

a peanut size on this planet. And so I think if anything, it was just like, you know, I try not to do things for like revenge and just like fueled by like other people's, you know, lack of belief in me. But, you know, sometimes that naturally happens. Yeah, this is such a random anecdote and your story is more interesting than mine. But a friend of mine was like, hey, you want to get dinner with my priest? and me. And I was like, yeah, sure, I've never had dinner with a priest and I'm intrigued.

And when we had this conversation, we talked about those people in our lives that, who were negative, who positively influenced our trajectory and how it's important to come to peace with giving some of those people some sort of percentage of my success because there is a driving force to prove those people wrong, at least for me. And maybe it's not the main driving force, but there's no question that, like, you know. It wasn't the kids that, like, hurt me as much.

It was actually when I got older. And then there was, like, grown adults saying things, like they didn't believe in me or I couldn't do this, this, this, this and this. Or, you know, compared to this person, I don't have, you know, a vision or a story or whatever it is, which I've heard it all. You know, I think that's more where I started to get a little bit more fueled by people's lack of belief. And totally, I definitely think that there's a percentage of, you know, the negative forces that really do fuel the positive outcomes. So, very grateful for all of it, even though it sucked.

Yeah, totally. I mean, but it wasn't, you know, you're, like you said, it was pretty early on that you end up working in, in Hollywood, in, you know, in actual entertainment business. And so you start proving people wrong kind of from the outset, which is amazing. But tell me about, you know, it's like, it's one thing when you say, I want to do this. It's another thing where it's, I want to do this and it's actually coming true. You know, you're on, when you want to be an act, you know, when you grow up in the Midwest, at least, or I don't know if Pennsylvania counts is Midwest, but at least where I grew up, the idea of,

if you're a good singer, then you should be on stage. And if you're on stage and you should also act, you should also sing, you do all the things. There's not like a lot of knowledge of the music industry versus acting. You know, it's all sort of like lumped into the same thing. Were you able to define those things for yourself? Or was it, no, I want to do all of it? Or was there a part of you from the outset that was,

no, right now I'm going to focus on being an actor. and I'm going to focus on music later. Well, again, I had no blueprint I was following. I had no one, there was no one's career that I was like, I'm going to do what they did because I could never do that. I could never recreate someone else's story and journey, and everyone just happens at such a different pace and rate. And so for me, you know, I started posting covers on YouTube when I was nine.

That was essentially what got me into this whole mess. I actually entered Miley Cyrus's fan club because I was a huge Miley Cyrus fan. And she was having this contest where you upload a video of you singing. And if you make it to round however many, you get to meet Miley. And then if you win, you get to like write a song with Miley. And it was like the craziest thing. I was like, yeah, I'm going to enter. I was 10.

And I think I made it to the final three. the other girls I was up against were like 17 so I was just like you know I started my YouTube channel through this contest because I had to make videos for the contest and so I was doing really like embarrassing covers honestly of like so many different songs like I was covering I was covering Ozzie Osbourne I was covering Chenate O'Connor I was covering Guns and Roses I was doing Miley I was doing Christine Aguilera and And they made me jump through hoops for this contest. So I got really familiar with taking songs that weren't mine and making them my own. And that's what really made me want to start writing songs. Because I realized that I would never sing a song exactly how the artist sang it. I always wanted to change it. And I think through posting those covers, like that was kind of how I, I guess I started to grow a little fan base.

Sabrina Star 99 was my channel. And it still exists somewhere. But yeah, I think I realized around the age of 12 that it was a little hard for people to take me seriously as an artist at 12. And a little hard for me to even understand what I wanted to write about at 12, even though I was writing a lot. It just wasn't stuff that I felt like was up to par with my peers at 12. And so I think after that, I did sign with a label. But keep in mind at the time, it was like, you know, I had sort of signed with them and then was making music, but I wasn't really releasing it yet. I was really just sort of like working on writing it for a few years.

And meanwhile, I had decided to then focus on, you know, this television show that I was working on. And on weekends and on hiatus weeks, like I would still be in the studio. but it was something that took a long time for me to figure out what I wanted to say, how I wanted to kind of like proceed with my own music. And then the journey really kind of began from there. And once I finished that show, I realized, you know, I had put out my first record. I was 15 or 16 and I had gone on my first tour. And it was just sort of like music is my, music is Sabrina.

Everything else isn't me. There's still outlets that I love and I'm so passionate about. But for me, I'm very selective with, you know, projects that I do outside of music because I have less control. And, you know, I do know that it takes away time from music and it just, it requires so much focus. So I've gotten a little bit better at the balancing act. But to be honest, it's definitely tricky. And it's just fueled by the fact that I love both. And I think it's really exciting to be able to kind of tell my story one way

and then tell other stories another way. Music's such a broad term for describing what you do. Because if you talk about singing on stage, that's also music. But writing in a studio is totally different. But I know what you're like in the studio and you're very passionate about. I was going to say that, but I felt like. Like that was, no, but when you're in a session, like, you're obviously very passionate about songwriting. So is there, do you, even in that when you say, you know, music is Sabrina and everything else is something else that is an outlet, do you think of songwriting specifically as the most version of you?

Or do you feel like when you sing the songs that you write, that that's the most version of you? That's a great question. It's tricky. I think, again, and I can say this because you've, you've been in the room with me before. And I really appreciate what you said because I do think I've sort of had to fight that stigma, whatever it is, around female singers and then female songwriters versus male singers and songwriters and the belief that I'm just sitting in the corner of the room on my phone, which is just, it couldn't be true because I'm a tourist and I need far too much control. And at the end of the day, I am. I'm so, I'm there because, like, you don't have to be there. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm, I'm so grateful when I get to be in a

room with people that I am inspired by and people that are there that are excited to create things with me that I don't want to waste, you know, a second of that. And of course, every day is such a different day. But I feel like the version of me that is able to kind of even be on a microphone and just stream of consciousness, say whatever comes to mind or sing whatever melody comes to mind, I mean, that would personally to me feel the most myself because it's not going through any sort of filters. It's not me thinking like, oh, I want to sound this way on the track. I want to give this kind of rasp to my voice and have people perceive me this way. It's usually like before that, like when I'm just thinking like, what's going to really be able to like hit this concept on the head, tell this story the best way possible?

and then, you know, for me, everything else kind of falls into place when you're in the zone. You kind of enter this ozone layer of like, you know, does that make sense? Like you're kind of in between. You're in like a weird space where you're actually just fully focused on creating and nothing else really matters. And I think that's where you unlock yourself, myself. In 2013, you know, you're in the show, but you're also signing that record deal and you're starting to go. through the process of learning about what it is to, you know, it's one thing when you're putting up, when you're meeting Miley Cyrus, it's another thing when all of a sudden, you know, the show

starts to take off and you're assigned to a record deal. And there's a lot of politics that go with that whole bundle of like, there are a lot of people who are looking, who are, looking over the shoulder of a young woman who's about to who's who's who's in that vulnerable stage in their life um what is it like to be creative within the restraints of a system that is promoting you and your talent but also has the you know the weight of a huge brand. Such a good question. I was 12 when I signed my first contract. I did not read the contract. I was 12. You know what I mean? But it was, I also was not forced by anyone around me. It wasn't like my parents were, you know, they didn't know any better either. They were not, they're from Pennsylvania.

You know what I mean? So it was not like we had any sort of awareness of what was appropriate to do at that time. and all I wanted to do is sing. And I think when you're that young, you have so much faith in the goodness of people. You don't even consider that people could be using you or misguiding you. And I think for that initial process, I wasn't really thinking about the weight of what a company was putting behind me. I think I was always more focused on. how do I get to be my most authentic self?

And how do I jump whatever hurdles I need to get to to be able to just, you know, put out what I want to put out and feel really excited about it and feel really passionate about it? Because at the end of the day, like, you know, all these people, like I really want to give them the benefit of the doubt and saying that there are cooks in the kitchen because they care and because they want to see you succeed. But I think sometimes it teeters over into trying to control someone

and trying to control an artist, especially a young female who's so complex. Like I genuinely, you know, I've changed so, so much as any person does, but especially over the last few years of my life. And having, you know, a lot of those opinions was really, really tricky for me to be able to focus on what was important and focus on what I needed to ignore in order to like stay true to my actual self. and not disappoint people. And I think that was the main concern for me was I just never wanted to,

I never wanted to let anybody down and I never wanted to disappoint. So there was a lot of political things I had to say yes to and songs that were singles that I didn't think were singles and, you know, like there was a say in what I wore for music videos and things like that. And I was always just so confused because it was like, you know, the old saying of like, would you like sit there next to Picasso and be like, no, no, no, this stroke instead. It's like, it's so like kind of weird to think about it now because you think we've come so far. But I will say that if I wasn't as defiant of a young woman as I was, I would have gotten swallowed up such a long time ago in that situation and definitely lost myself completely.

Yeah, it's so important for the industry to listen to artists and actually try to hear them and what they really want to do. It's also sometimes complex. I mean, I'm sure your time was divided in a million different ways, especially during the height of the show. plus let's try to get you in the studio and you know you end up in the studio with some amazing writers that you still work with today

you know so the system on some level allowed for a certain amount of development totally it's just hard when it's you know it's just it's just a bumpy road totally it's a bumpy road and again like there's

there are those experiences that I've gotten so much knowledge out of. And there were so many of, like, it's again, talking about the negative forces, like, without those experiences where we go, oh, like, maybe I should have just, like, really stuck to my guns or, you know, maybe I should have listened to someone else at that time. You know, that's why I, it's always coming back to the quote, like, as unfortunate as it is, everything happens for a reason. Everything happens in the order that it happens. Because, like, I am where I am right now and, you know, all those things that happen have really taught me so much

of what to do in the future if I ever come in, you know, into that situation ever again. But I definitely think it's, it's also helped me form my own identity and opinions and and really help me understand my voice truthfully and what I do want versus what I don't want. And, you know, what I'll fight for at the end of the day. you know we this is albums later so we'll go back but when we worked on exhale that song like that was an opportunity for us to talk about some of the the weight that it carries not just you know on a personal level too um on what it's like for the driving force to be somebody who is young for everything like it's the show, the family, all of it. How does somebody from

12, 13 years old to 18 years old, how does somebody mentally grow in an environment that's so surrounded by adults? What were the things that you did to allow

yourself to be your age? You sound like my therapist right now. like genuinely she like asked me this question the other day like this is so it's so triggering um no it's it's it's a really great question because i feel like i'm also saying that about every question you ask me so don't get too flattered but um i'm blushing i think as you should i think what's really interesting is i just i don't know i never had the urge to be like oh i wish i went to that high school party. I wish I went to prom. I wish I, like, I was finding these moments of like

fun and laughter with adults. And I don't know if it's just because I was like a baby adult or if it's, you know what I mean? Like I, I didn't feel like being in the room with you and Johan was any different than being in a room creating with friends my age. Like, because I, I genuinely feel like I relate to people that, you know, have a good sense of humor that people, that people that understand feelings, people that, like, are excited to create things. I don't, I don't know if I've ever looked at, you know, needing to be around people my age as a reason why I didn't, like, maybe have, like, a proper childhood. And also, I had older sisters, so maybe that was a part of it as well. But I also, I hung around kids my age. Honestly, sometimes they were just kind of like,

mentally just not up to par. I don't know. It's weird. I'm like talking about myself as a I'm like, Timmy Turner. But I didn't see it that way. I never saw it as, you know, I missed out. If anything, I see it as I got so lucky to have the head start that I did in doing what I love, you know, a little bit sooner. And how people look at relationships and they go, God, like, I wish I met you when I was younger because we could have like so many more years together of being in love.

It's like, you know, there's a certain aspect of that to this career. I think I'm very lucky that I got to start when I did because, you know, I've learned a lot more starting at that young age and kind of growing through it and seeing the way that people change with you or you grow in and out of people. And that's also been really fascinating to me. But you know me. I still I still fuck around. Can I say that or can we not curse? You can curse. It's tea.

I don't care. Okay. It happens. It's kind of how people communicate. I don't really understand the whole, I mean, maybe somebody hears this and is highly offended by it. And if that's the case, like, it's, it's so weird. The idea of language being so triggering for people is so complex with all the things

that are happening on the planet that somebody really cares about what they perceive as a cuss word because that may influence it. I mean, I have now a one-year-old that I'm like, at some point I should probably curtail some of my vocabulary so that he doesn't go repeating it to other kids. But that's like maybe my only purpose. But then again, it's because you're worried

about their parents being like your kid was cussing to my kid. And in reality, it's like, why are they bothered? Like, their kid's going to cuss in five years. Like, it is kind of funny when you think about it. Going back to songwriting real quick. What did, you know,

those first albums, they were songs that, you know, at first they, you know, you aren't a co-writer on all the songs. Yeah. It's like it becomes a process. But your parents, you said, were listening to all kinds of music. You know, you were introduced to a lot of stuff.

And if you're covering Ozzy Osbourne and, you know, then clearly, you know, your parents introduced you to them. Yeah, clearly you have trauma. But it, you know, it took you a minute to either gain the confidence or to learn the craft. Do you feel like you always had the craft in you and people weren't listening to the songs? Or did you feel like you were actively having to learn how to write songs that were as competitive as the songs that you were being asked to record? I definitely think when I first started. And I want to say like, you know, I was 13, 14, 15 making my first record.

at that time in my heart, I knew it was there. Like, I knew that I could do it. But, you know, you go into rooms with people that do it every day for a living. And in my mind, there was that imposter syndrome a bit of just wanting to really take in what I was learning. And, you know, but at the end of the day, I will say, like, I would always, always, always, if something didn't feel like something I would say, something I would say, something I would. do. And if I didn't like the song, like, if I genuinely didn't want to like get in the car and listen to the song a thousand times, like I wouldn't record it or I wouldn't put it out or, you know, again, it would just end up being another lost song in the universe. And that was, that was in the

very beginning. But I think, I think it was my second album, which was called Evolution, that I finally went into studio with a writer named Edo at the time. And it was like the first person, he also like went in with preconceived notions and he told me this and we joked about it afterwards. But he definitely was like, yeah, like I did not know what to expect from like some 16 year old little blonde, you know, thing. Like I just was not, I didn't have high hopes. And he was like, you know, we left, we left that session and we ended up writing most of that record together. together, just the two of us. And I think it was the first person that ever actually really listened to me and my ideas. So, or one of the first people, obviously there's a lot of people, but I specifically

just recall those sessions as ones where I really felt like free to write and, and feeling like, you know, oh, wow, like these are melodies that I really love and really I'm excited about. When you get into the competitive aspect of it, it just was never a thought in my mind of, you know, like I would just just hope at the end of the day that everyone wasn't lying to me and that the music that I was making was as good as I felt that it was. Like I would hope that someone would actually tell me at some point, like, hey, you know, like, this just isn't up to par. And I think I really felt like there was an organic transition with each song, each record that I was making that felt, you know, for me, not stronger when you think about music in like a success sense.

stronger as like it felt more like Sabrina as an artist. And I think it's really hard to like start thinking of yourself as an artist. Like I don't know why, but that's been the hardest thing for me to be like, I always knew, but like having other people like finally start to like, it just clicks for them that you actually are one and you make music from your heart and soul and like you have a different sound and opinion and like blueprint on your music than any other artists, that's a really, really tough thing for me to come to terms with and then for me to realize that other people maybe don't come to terms with yet.

Other people as in them regarding you, other artists in general just struggle with this? Both. I really do think, well, I don't know if other artists struggle with it. I think for me, I always did of being like, you know, I know that I'm an artist, but is it weird to like, you know, consider myself one and do other people feel like I am? And if they don't, why don't they? You know, there's been so many questions that I've had. And especially as I'm also growing into like a young woman where I have so many questions. about everything. Like, it's a really tricky time to sort of then also on the side be like able to channel

my thoughts enough that I feel like I'm streamlining everything into one place that feels like me as an artist. And that just comes into overthinking, man. I am so good at it. A lot of us, specifically Americans define ourselves by our occupations. define ourselves by our occupation, you know, and it's where we say, I'm a, you know, I'm a songwriter, you know, rather than like, I'm a husband, I'm a dad, I'm a songwriter, you know, or I'm a friend, all these other things that we could use, but we use our occupation.

And it takes a, it does take a certain chutzpahs, they would say, it takes like a certain, like, you know, bravado to say, I'm an artist, and this is my perspective. on the world because you are risking at that point the minute you do that then you're risking the vulnerability you know people can then say like oh well that's not especially in music like if somebody doesn't like the movie you were in they say oh i don't like that i don't like that movie but they don't say like i don't like Sabrina she was in that movie but if somebody doesn't like your music they're like i don't like Sabrina and you're like what like you don't know No, I literally had that exact, like what you just said, word from word was something I said to my best friend a few days ago. She's a full-time actress. And she was like, how are you feeling? And I was like, bro, I'm fucking terrified. Like, low-key, like, when you release a movie and it doesn't do well, that's not really on you. Like, if I put out, you know, a project, you're right. People associate it with me as a person. If they don't like my music, they hate me or if they don't like, you know, what I do. Like, it's so easy for people to also,

then like hear your lyrics and feel like they have such a strong opinion of you based on how you felt in a moment. Like their opinion lasts forever based off for you what only lasted this long. You know, so it's, it's, it is. It's very scary. And I do. Like, I think that that's why it's, it's something that is a very vulnerable process. And it's cheesy to talk about it like that. But I think that's what it is at the end of the day. It's like, you know, you do have a team of people that help you. You do have, you know, so many factors, but it is, it is all you. Well, if you changed your name and you were a, and it was, that would also, like, you'd have some shell of like, well, you know, Charlie XX's last name isn't XX.

Like, there's a, exactly. You know, it's like, you know, most of the, most, a lot of people are able to hide behind something, a band name, a, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, age name, you know. And so it's like, it's, it is, it's even more. And I wasn't thinking about that at 12. I wasn't thinking like, you know, I'm probably going to need something to like. Yeah. And you can't just change, you can't just change it when you're already sort of famous.

Like once you're famous and people know you, it's like, well, this is, this is you. And so anyway, well, let's go to real quick, the singular one and two because that's when we meet. And so that's obviously, this is really about me. Like the most important. The most important things. But again, like what I was saying is along the way, one thing that Mio, your A&R guy, did well during all this, was introduce you to people who becomes lifelong collaborators. Like during that, like, if you look at, you know, your relationship with Julia, Michaels,

and your relationship with, you know, like, Evagan and, you know, Steph Jones, Jason Evigan, who, you know, Amy Allen and Evigin worked on those projects. Like, we worked together on those projects. And you met a lot of, you know, your lifelong, not lifelong, I mean, so far lifelong collaborators. Was there a, is there a turning point where you felt like these are the, these are people that I could see continuing to work with throughout

not just these two albums but whatever is going to be on the horizon at that point where you already thinking what the you know in you know I guess I should say like your escape plan but you're you know you are now on a new label and all this stuff as you're creating these albums are you building your network where you're seeing oh I'm starting to feel like I can express me best with these kinds of collaborators. How are you navigating in a way, I know that these are specific to songwriting questions,

but how are you navigating these collaborators through that into where we're at now? Well, firstly, yeah, I think it was during the singular kind of time in my life where I felt finally like really accepted in the songwriter community. and not only that, but I became friends with people that I worked with and then people that I had never written with just based off respecting their work and then really realizing like how much songwriting meant to me and how much these people that make these songs mean to me because, you know, it's the stuff that has influenced, you know, so many chapters of my life.

And so I definitely like, when you work with people that you feel understand you and you feel like you can actually like be heard and they see your ideas and they don't think you're crazy. Like if I go in and I, you know, I play a reference that's kind of weird and a producer like gets it and a producer is like, yo, like yeah, let's try something. Like that sounds really cool. Like I haven't done something like that before. Like that definitely is one, someone that I want to work with again. Two, I love when people are quick.

I know it doesn't always happen quickly. But when it does, it is something that is so. exciting for me, like the fact that the energy just feels like super aligned. And that could be a vocal producer as well. Like, you know, because I like to cut really fast. I don't like to, I like to cut a lot of vocals. So it takes a lot of time. So if I'm going too slow, I get kind of slowed down. So there was so many people in that time in my life that I felt like, you know, these are definitely people that I'm not only going to work with for the rest of my life, but I'm also going to watch them work on other things with other people and just be able to be like, I know them.

And that's so incredible because I know their mind and I know their heart. And, you know, they've supported me and I can support them. I wasn't thinking of an escape plan. Well, of course, everyone thinks about it at some point. Like, you know, the next project, the next thing I do. What's next? Yeah. But I think I always knew that truthfully I had to get through a lot of years of being in rooms

with a lot of people. Whereas at the end of the day, and I think you know this, I really love intimate rooms. I really, really love it being me and one other person or me and two other people. I get overwhelmed if there's too many, too many people in a room. I think one, just because it means more people that you're actually opening up to. And I feel like I have to, like the more I open up, the more personal the song is. The more personal the song is the closer it is to me. and I've never, you know, just felt super comfortable opening up to a lot of people.

And so I definitely was picking and choosing the people that I felt really, really comfortable with, but definitely relationships that will last me a lifetime because they've just seen me at the weirdest times in my life. And, you know, we've just talked about situations that I would never talk about, even with my parents. Like, it's so interesting. Like the things I've told songwriters that like I've never told my mom and dad, you know? Like what? I'm just kidding. Wouldn't that be weird? This is the place?

Like, no. But I and again, like I think in the development of somebody's career that is one thing, that is absolutely the forte

of that record label and Hollywood and me of is connecting dots as far as like introducing people to you know really good collaborators like that you know the one thing I will say is people and by this I mean like you can be introduced to those people and you can have a session with them and never talk to them again and never work with them again so that I will say was on me like the the ability to then not only like form the relationship but then

it actually turns into something because you, you do really enjoy working with these people or for some reason they enjoy working with you. I don't know why you did, but like very grateful that you did. That is something that I think is not, you know, it goes past the introduction, which I'm very, very lucky in that sense that that was where, you know, I had belief from songwriters. I had belief from producers in me and my vision. And it was clear that it wasn't coming from anyone else. Like it was clear that it wasn't like grown men trying to be like, this is what she needs to do,

this is what she needs to sound like, this is who she needs to be. Because I don't think I would have like been able to hold up in those rooms with such iconic people, you know. Do, are those relationships, like you were saying it's on you, are the relationships maintained, were they maintained from your management to songwriters and their management

or when you say maintaining your relationship I mean I guess you and I like text on the side every once in a while and stuff like that is that like some of it's got to be especially in the rooms where there are

a lot of men you know like not a lot of men but like if it's more men than usual that's weird but the two you know if it's like, you know, not every session has a female presence in it. Did you find that as a young woman, that that was a harder thing to navigate or because you'd been working in entertainment

as a whole, did you feel confident in being able to, you know, maintain those relationships? Yeah, I know that's a tricky question because you're like, Like, yeah, like, were you just becoming friends with these grown men and, like, maintaining them yourself? But it's, it was more so the fact that, like, you know, what happens beyond the session, whether you use the song, whether you're working on the song, whether I go back in another day, I'm working on the song, or we're just writing something completely new on a different occasion. Like, it was. It was, it was either the friendships that I created that I was like, oh, like, I know that I could text this person and be like, you. yo, I need to like write this song and I need to like get in the studio today. Like would you if you're free like can you do this? I felt confident enough in the fact that like, you know, I was able to create those

relationships that I didn't have to like necessarily go through a team of people to be able to kind of have those moments if I really needed to. And, you know, again, I think also it's kind of weird, but I do think growing up, working in the film industry, I was very used to working with a lot of grown men and being in rooms with a lot of those kind of presences, that it was never intimidating to me. And I never felt like I couldn't say what I wanted to say or be who I was. Of course, there is a little bit of, you know, more politics that goes into it when it comes to like being a young woman and making sure that, you know, you are being heard and it isn't just people kind of yesing you. But I think for the most part,

you know, I just tried to be as resilient as I could and stand my ground. But again, I got really lucky that, you know, working with you, working with, you know, a few other people at that time that I felt were just really good humans. Like, you know, and that's where it kind of gets easy. You work with some shady people and then I just don't work with those people again, you know? But, you Unfortunately, sometimes you have to go through the rain to get the rainbow. Oh, that's sweet. The new album, emails I can't send, congratulations on it. Thank you.

And that one, you have a woman co-writer on every song but one. Is that by design? I mean, yeah, I do think in a sense this was probably the most, vulnerable, scary chapter of my life. And, girl, I think I had dealt with a lot of first in the last two and a half years. Everybody dealt with a lot of first in the last two and a half years. We obviously went through quite a thing together. But then everybody that went through that thing together went through something very

individually separate. And so for me, it was that layered with a lot of other things. And I found that I was really lucky to be able to feel very safe with the women that I was writing with. And the fact that the relationships that I was kind of writing from and like the experiences that I was writing from were delicate to me. And it wasn't necessarily intentional, like I will only write with women, but I got so lucky that I just met people that really, that really were kind of on my wavelength. And, and knew also, like, the way that I write, the place that I come from, the person that I am, the person that I, the person that I, I know myself to be, but maybe other people don't know me to be. And, You know, I, again, like, I do still sometimes wish that I had more female producers,

and I know that there's a few, and there's definitely more growing. But I think that that was something that I really did kind of try to look for in this album. And I ended up, you know, not being able to really kind of find the right people in that sense. But obviously, the producers that I did work with were, again, some of the most lovely, incredible closest friends of mine that know that I deflect pain with humor and we're really able to take that and turn it into an album with me. How do you, what's your experience with Island Records at this point? That's your new, your new home.

How do you, how do you, this is your first release with them, like this album. how is that experience being away from you know the not you know all the things from your previous life you know this is your first time as a you know an adult away from the deals that you did as a minor

so this is your first your first deal that you probably signed away from your parents you know how how does that influence this experience? One, definitely, like I said, it adds to the weight of it for sure. It adds to like how much it means to me just because you're kind of walking that road a lot more isolated than I was before when I kind of had just so many people and opinions.

I still have that to a certain degree. but I think, you know, the difference is now, like, I got very lucky that there was never a question of the record that I wanted to make. And when I was really sure that things were either in the right direction or not in the right direction that I was heard and understood. And I think if anything, my experience has obviously been like, I'm still learning, I'm still navigating. and so much of what I learned from my, you know, childhood label and that whole experience, a lot of it is the same. Like, a lot of it is the same, but you're a grown up and you're kind of in a different, you're kind of in different hands with different people.

But if anything, like, yeah, it's definitely, there's a lot more, there's a lot more of that personal tie and that personal connection, I think, just because it's, you know, I also signed with them in the middle of a pandemic. I was kind of like I was signing with this label via Zoom. I never got to meet anyone in person before I signed with them. And, you know, the president of the label dipped after the first week of me being there. And then it was like a year of confusion and really just me being like, you know, I'm just going to create this until it is until it is what I think it will be. And then everything else will come after.

And I really am, you know, very grateful to Island, for obviously kind of believing in me beyond, you know, maybe what they heard from me in my younger years. And then, again, like, these are relationships that are all growing. And I'm excited to see where they go, but also very excited that I have, you know, the extent of freedom that I, I essentially have at this point. Shout out Justin Ishak, who is in my dorm. Shout out. Oh my gosh, the way he told me that. I was like, y'all must have been crazy kids.

Oh, we sure were. We were sure not. When you say that they, you know, that they hear, you know, when they hear the songs from your younger years and believe in you now, do you look at the music that you released? I think a lot of us look at whatever music we've released in the past and feel like we can beat that. but do you look at your career thus far and feel like I'm a successful artist?

And if not, what is a successful artist? Now you're getting into the therapy part again. I think, you know, it is, it is tricky because I've been like this ever since I was young. Like I look at the YouTube videos that I posted and I go, why, why, why, why, why, why, why? You know, like, whether it was just the outfit that I was wearing or whether it was like, I literally hit a flat note, God forbid, at first. 13. You know what I mean? And I've sort of always kind of been that way with myself. So it doesn't shock me the fact that I would, you know, look at my old work and be kind of like, wow, thank

God, people gave me a chance because that was rough. I think that I've always sort of maybe been programmed that way, unfortunately. But I will say that like, yes, I consider myself successful. I think especially, you know, given kind of the preconceived notions and a lot of the hurdles that I kind of had to jump in order to allow people to maybe hear me and really, again, kind of see me as an artist, that I think at this point, you know, I'm very grateful that I've been able to accept myself in that sense and accept. you know, the success that I have seen thus far and, uh, and the people that have grown with me. Like the people that have truly heard the fact that I've gone through so many different sonic evolutions just based in genre alone. It's all been a version of pop. But truthfully, like, I think it's because of the fact that I, myself as a person, I digest so many different genres of music and I love so many different kinds of artists. Um,

that it was always really hard for me. Like in the beginning, I remember when I was 12, and they kind of said to me, like, you have to pick a genre. Like, we're thinking maybe Sarah Borellas meets Colby Kale for you. You're giving us that. And I was like, like, I was like out here like literally belting Christina Aguilera. Like I was like, I love this. I don't know if I'm this.

You know, I think maybe I start here, grow from there. but it was interesting to kind of really be able to, I guess, get past that and kind of be where I am now and have people accept the music that I make for me, which is really cool. Yeah, I mean, I know that I'm biased because I was involved in some of those earlier records, but I still feel like it's important when you listen back to realize how good those records are. Totally. Oh, by the way, when I talk about eras,

that one's not included. That's where I started to feel like, oh, okay, this shit's good. But like, I think anything before that was... If you look at pictures of me when I'm 13, 14, 15, 16, I am so awkward. I am so awkward. And let alone try... I'll send somebody else send you a picture. But, like, send, you know, the idea of like trying to create music that at that age that would somehow reflect who I am at 23

would be impossible. It's just impossible. And like, you know, I think it's so, it's great that you just release this album and it's really only in the beginning. I mean, most people aren't even starting their career until they graduate college. And they would be literally your age right now. And yet that's why I said in the intro,

I said this about Julia Michaels, who you did a lot of this album with. It's like she was so young when she first got into this business. And she's so good. And by the time I met her, we were basically in the industry for the same amount of years. She was just so much younger than I am because she started so young. You're on the same level of most of your collaborators who are, so much older, which is why that feels like so natural because if they started when they were 23, they'd be in their 30s. If they started when they were 30, they'd be in their maybe even 40,

you know? And I think that sometimes it's hard to look at like the perspective I think from from where I'm at and having known you. It's like, I think it's exciting to know that you'll still continue to evolve your sound and it's still going to be like a version of pop and a version, you know, it'll be a version of, or not, but it'll just be popular,

but it'll just be what you do at that time in your life. I think something that's been really tricky in the last, you know, while I was making this album, honestly, which is why like I did experience a lot of growing pains and fear and just questioning myself a lot, was

the fact that it feels like, Like, you know, I kind of started questioning being like, God, like, you know, people try to make you feel really bad for the fact that I have however many albums out already before this one, you know, and the fact that I have however many albums out and they didn't, you know, do a certain like chart number position. Who knows? Like when I was like 15, you know what I mean? And so I. think it's been really tricky being like, oh, like I wish I could have, you know, technically like had this be my debut album because this feels like the most me compared to like other artists, you know, getting to kind of really have their debut album come when they have maybe more matured into who they are as a person and matured into their thoughts and their experiences and what they like and dislike. Whereas I did start, I guess, a lot earlier than before I knew who I was and I'm still learning who I am. So I think that that's been a really

tricky thing to navigate because there is this sort of perception of like, you know, you have to kind of come out the gate super strong, super successful and climb right to the top. And I've always just been like, I don't know, like I think I'm the tortoise. Like I think it's a slow and steady type of thing for me and it always sort of has been. And so that's why I try to be kinder to myself and know that like I can't change the past. I can't change the fact that I have other albums out. I can't change the fact that maybe they weren't, you know, as good as, this current one or maybe as good as the next one that I make.

That's all out of my hands at this point. I'm just along for the ride and really lucky I get to make music. Yeah, that's definitely an irrelevant thought process because it's really about, you know, and again, it's such a process thing. And if you're able to create and release albums, it's amazing. And if something successful,

whatever the level of success it is, it's really generally out of your hands. Totally. So it's like it doesn't, you know. You've gotten a lot into fashion. You've gotten a lot into, you know, you have a fragrance. You have all kinds of stuff now. Like it's kind of bananas.

Yeah, look at your sweatshirt right now. I styled you today. I mean, I wasn't going to not wear this. Do you, do you, do you, as you were saying, those other things are part of the outlet, Do you find that those things are inspiring to the music stuff? Or do you find that that stuff, do they inspire each other? Totally. I think I've also always been a super visual person.

Like, you know, when I write songs, I think of the music video while I'm writing them. Like, I think of what it could look like. And I think of, you know, the kind of world I'm living in and just kind of everything that goes down to what I'm wearing, how my hair looks, what my makeup looks like. or what other people's hair makeup looks like depending on like the project that I'm making. And so I think it's, it's always been a huge part of my passion. I think just because it's all encompassing in some form of art and some form of expression. And, you know, I don't think the music is, I think it's the biggest part of it, but it's not the only part.

And I get so lucky that, you know, when I get to kind of bring these visions to life and kind of, of get to have fun on the visual side of things, that's sometimes what makes me feel, you know, most like an artist, I think, is because I have a very different taste and opinion from someone else who's making a different project, you know, and I get to kind of really bring those ideas to life. The perfume has been something that I've wanted to do for a really long time, and I just don't like smelling bad. So it, like, kind of comes down to that, you know. Yeah, that's a big win, for sure. Yeah, it's a really big win for everything. one involved.

Because then I don't smell bad. Other people don't smell bad. Totally. Much easier to be in a studio with you and you don't smell as bad, you know? This is what I'm saying. In the last time, I didn't have a perfume. So I can't really own up to what that was,

what I smelled like in that time. We should go on to the next thing then. So we're going to go for a five or five. I'll just list five things. Okay. And you can just say whatever comes off the top of your head. I'm going to start with Boy Meets World. Daniel Fissel.

What did you say? Daniel Fisle. She plays Topanga. Oh, I like that. Let's go with Miley Cyrus. Don't ask me why, but that was my fedora hat era. When I loved Miley, so I think of fedora hats because I met Miley. in a fedora hat and obviously can never use the picture now because I look awful. Yeah, I think a fedora's.

Let's go with Julia Michaels and J.P. Sachs. I mean, they feel like a moral compass to me in such different ways. You know, they're both so unique to themselves. But, you know, I started writing with JP first. I knew Julia for a while just as friends. Like we'd honestly just seen each other at different award shows and things like that. And she was always so sweet to me. And I was just like, one day, like, I'd, I'll get to write with her.

And I started working with JP. And I mean, that was just a very, very instant connection and something that ended up, like, luckily turning into, you know, a squad that I made a lot of the record with. and Julia being one of those people and our minds kind of all being the same amount of fucked up. And again, it really also comes down to the fact that we are just lightning when it comes to each other. And I think that that's a really, you can't really teach that, you know?

So, yeah, I'd say they were like a moral compass for me in the last two years of my life for sure as friends as well, as collaborators. Your parents. My parents? definitely inspiration uh and i don't say that in like an obvious sense of the word i say it is like i i am so lucky to be the person i am and i can't imagine that i'd be the person i am if it wasn't for them um we've also been through a lot so i'm going to end that one there and i love them your sister Shannon

funny is like Shannon gets the call out in the song when Sarah is like literally my creative partner and everything that I do. I have three older sisters. Oh, I didn't. Okay. So let's go with each of three of your sisters. Let's go with each sister. But it is funny because Shannon got the shout out because Shannon is like this phenom that everybody in my life knows like about Shannon and just like she just has the craziest way of seeing the world and she's never not in the middle of some sort of weird crisis and I think it causes for a lot of entertainment in my life. And so it's kind of one of those things where even if you don't know Shannon, it was just like always this joke of like, but you do. Or everybody has one. When I think of my sisters, I think of, I really do think

of my best friends and how I got really lucky to be placed onto this earth with them. Because if you were a carpenter, you know, like, it gets crazy. It's just a very weird language that I would never know how to explain to anyone else. Thank you for doing this podcast. I don't want it to be over. I still have like, you know, it's weird because we could really go through the new album. And since the last time, you know, the last time I saw you was, or the last time we worked together, I suppose was probably exhale. Maybe we did a few other songs after that that I don't think came out.

But like we, you know, I love that song. And I love that session because I remember how vulnerable you were. and, you know, again, as a melody writer, as a lyric writer, you're so involved in it. And so it just feels like you're collaborating. It doesn't feel like you're writing for the artist to then sing the song. We're all writing a song together. And so, like, you know, since that, there are all these, you know, you've gone through drama, public drama, you've gone through, like, you know, you've gone through all these changes that

I feel like, you know, we should go grab a beer and, like, talk for, like, hours. We totally need a pint. Like, Ross, we need, like, a full pint. Like, we definitely need a moment to... Because it's crazy. I mean, your experience and your life experience has been very public. You know, you're growing up from... You were public before we met and you're even public now.

I mean, like, it's, it's a, it's a interesting thing to watch and, and, you know, it's like, you, you, you age so gracefully in such, in an environment that is often really not easy to grow gracefully in, but you're, you know, you release this album, which I listened to this morning and it's like, it's sophisticated. It's, it's, it's, it can, a, continuation of who you are and you're releasing fashion line stuff and doing like you're you've just become this you continue to grow as this woman in this business and it's it's enjoyable to watch and it's exciting to be able to support that from afar even if you know even if it's from a far it's it's really easy to it's any one of your collaborators who worked on any one of those albums is rooting for you. I'm like, I know this is a podcast, so I have to respond because they can't see me cry, but like I very much appreciate that.

It's been a weird road, and I think I said this in like an Instagram caption, but genuinely I really did have to sort of unlearn myself and learn myself again in the last two years because I was, which is weird because like you said, like you recognized me in this album, the same need that you have met and known and worked with. but I think it's because I sort of really did lose it for a second. And it's exactly the same thing I said before. It's a very, very easy thing to get swallowed up in and to lose sight of yourself in, especially when I have to remain certain of my reality while others are trying to distort it. And that was the trickiest thing to do, which is why I took my time and which is why I

I kind of, you know, went away for a second and did it. But I'm just so grateful. Like I'm so lucky that I get to continue to do what I love. And, you know, at the end of the day, like, I'm no less passionate about it. And I think the fact that, you know, I've kind of been through some times that maybe I haven't really enjoyed. And it hasn't ever altered my love for what I do. and the fact that I want to keep doing it is really, really impactful to me. So it also just means the world hearing that from you because you know how I feel about you.

I think you're just a legend and I respect you so much. And, you know, like I wouldn't be able to be where I am right now if it wasn't for people like you believing in me, giving me a chance. And also just like allowing me to feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable in that sense, especially with exhale. My fans will have that sound. Everybody's got an exhale tattoo. They all have this tattoo on their arm.

When they come to my shows, they're like, exhale. I'm like, girl, like, that's crazy. That's there forever. And that's really special. So, yeah, let's get a pint soon. I'm more of an apparel spritz girl, but I'll do something. I'm also more of an apparel spritz girl. For sure, I would not end up ordering a pint if we went on.

I don't even know why I said that. It's just not even in my, Anyway, you've released this, you've not, this is your fifth studio album. And, you know, when you think of like Fleetwood Mac breaking on their, what, ninth or 11th album or something, you've had a chance to, like, you've had a chance to develop in an era where people don't really get that opportunity and it's because you're putting out such quality. And so you're going to continue to release stuff and each thing is going to be successful

in their own right. And people are going to keep going to hear what you're putting out next. So keep doing what you're doing. We'll grab an app for all sprits. And we'll hang soon. And let's write a song soon, yeah? Yeah, I'm always down. You know it.

Okay. Amazing. You need new merch also. Yeah, you know my address. Or maybe not. Yeah, I do. You're the best. Thank you so much.

This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, mega house management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.