And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 16: Noel Zancanella

Episode Date: May 15, 2017

After a stint at the famous Village Studios in Los Angeles, this songwriter serendipitously crossed paths with a person who would one day become one of his closest and most frequent collaborators. That same person, Ryan Tedder of OneRepublic, eventually signed him to a publishing deal, where he quickly began racking up credits on hits such as OneRepublic's "Counting Stars", Demi Lovato's "Neon Lights", and Ellie Goulding's "Burn." For nearly a decade thereafter, this songwriter continued to hone his craft and forge his own path, eventually earning his very own Grammy and BMI Songwriter of The Year Award. And The Writer Is...Noel Zancanella! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write songs.

write the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who is nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is, or go to our website www.com. Oh, and if you enjoy this podcast, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. We really appreciate that effort. Okay, before we get into the episode, there's something I wanted to say. This past Tuesday, I won BMI Pop Songwriter of the Year. I'm the co-winner with Justin Tranner because we tied for the most awards of the night.

We don't really get a chance to give an acceptance speech, so I guess this is my opportunity. Last year, I didn't win a BMI Pop Award. And the year before that, I didn't win a BMI Pop Award either. So this goes out to all of you who didn't win a pop award this year but will eventually be songwriter of the year. Now on to this episode.

Speaking of BMI songwriters of the year, Noel Zankelea, he won it once. He happens to do a lot of stuff with Ryan Tudder so I know a lot of you guessed that that would be our guest on our social media, on our Instagram, Twitter, etc. And that's what I love so much about this podcast, is that it's introducing you to, the people who are really behind the song.

You may not even know who Noel is. But Noel's sitting there writing and producing all these records with Ryan. He's even doing some on his own. He's kind of the hidden member of One Republic, if you will. We did this episode a little bit ago at The Village Recorder, which is a classic studio. You should look it up because incredible records have been done there. We talk about Ryan Tetter from the beginning because obviously that's who his publishing is through and who his main co-writer is.

We talk about Brent Cutsle, who is the cellist and bassist of One Republic. And we talk about DJ Frankie, who's a great producer out of Colorado as well. So without further ado, here is this week's episode of And the Writer is. Welcome to Ann The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan.

Today's writer-producer has won Grammys. He has collaborated on more than a handful of number ones, and he's been crowned BMI songwriter of the year. In addition to that, he's kind of an invisible member of one of the biggest bands in the world. Even with all those accolades, he's perhaps the most modest writer we've ever interviewed. And the writer is,

one of my first co-writers from way back, Noel Zankeanaella. Hey. How about that? It's amazing. That intro is amazing. Thanks, man. This room is amazing. So we're in Danny Elfman's old room.

Is that what this is? Yeah. Studio E for Elfman. Do you feel that energy? I mean, I know you're into that. Do you think you feel the energy of the previous people who've worked in this classic building? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And they do a lot here. The village does a lot to keep all of that alive, too, and keep the memory. Yeah. and the history of this building intact. The room's excellent, man. Like we were discussing,

I'm the least famous person to ever occupy this space, man. At one point in time, I think this even was the headquarters for a, oh shit, what was the name of that synth? They looked super off, fair, fair light. Oh, wow, nice. This was their headquarters. Yeah. Do people ever ask you what kind of equipment you use, like online?

Because when people ask me that, I'm usually like, I don't know if I use equipment, I use my iPhone. I mean, I know it's different because I'm not a producer. But do people constantly ask you? It's all in the box questions these days, though. You know, it's like what, literally like what, yeah, exactly what plug-ins or even what, like, auto-tune settings. Yeah. No, no, that's not true. Somebody hit me maybe a few weeks ago, and they really wanted to know how I recorded Ella Henderson's ghost, how Ella was recorded.

How Ella was recorded. Oh, did you? I think she was, I think we used like a 67 or a 47. It was, you know, it's a snap food because we did it in London, like super quick. So I don't really remember. She's incredible. Yeah, she's rad, man. So I was looking back at our old emails and we've been friends for like seven or eight years now.

Yeah. Which is amazing because at the time we were working in, you know, or in Yoel's old place. And which is, was underneath what are now train tracks. Right. You know? Right. And it's amazing to see what's happened in your last seven or eight years. How did that happen?

Where have you been? I mean, how did it go from when we first started writing together? We were, I don't think you had any cuts at that point, right? Maybe not. Maybe not. Yeah. I don't think I did either, but I mean. No, that would have been 2010, I think, too.

I think it was 2010 when we were hanging out and we were doing like the key. Remember we wrote with what's his name? Keith Harrison Is that his name? What's Keith's last name? Black Eyed Peace guy? Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Keith Harris. Keith Harris, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, we wrote, remember we did a date with him, which was super fun. We've done a bunch of random sessions. Yeah, man. I kind of went back and saw, like, even you and Brent and, you know. We did, we did.

We kind of did a few sessions. But like... So what happened was, you know, I signed with Ryan basically because of good life because I co-wrote that with the band. And then they went on tour immediately. This was like 2009, like maybe the end of 09.

Which all kind of fits into you, right? So then, so I wrote Good Life with them, signed a songwriters. In Colorado? In Colorado. Okay. And then they bound, like literally the second we got the record done, they bounced on like a 15, 16 month tour. And so I came here and kind of just started getting into the mix and stuff.

But you didn't know at the time that Good Life was going to be that big. No, because it was the third single, and it took, like, oh, you know, two years almost after the record came out, year and a half or something, to even become a single. And then even when it became a single, it, like, crawled. You know, it's kind of the classic One Republic Slow Burn thing. There's probably not another band in the last five years that sort of automatically would just sort of, that album. I mean, I think you guys have three number one songs that's certainly a hot AC and whatnot, you know? Yeah. They just lasted forever.

I mean, counting stars is like just sat there for years, it felt like. Yeah. Probably literally. Absolutely. So that's, so you and I were doing our thing. And then, so I spent most of that year, I think, here, kind of just in the writer gauntlet. Yeah. You know.

So, wait, go back a second. So where in Colorado are you from again? Denver. So you're from Denver, but how did you, so how did you meet Ryan? I mean, I know, obviously, he's from Colorado Springs, right? Well, so he's from Tulsa, Oklahoma, but his dad lives in Colorado Springs. And so I think he came to live with his dad for maybe a year or two in high school. And that's where he met kind of some of the founding members of One Republic.

Okay. And then he convinced them all to move, I think in 03 or something like that to L.A. to try to kind of create a start a career as a band. And so everybody went. everybody moved out here and uh but so his wife Ryan's wife is from Denver right so there's the connection there so when Apologize blew up and and they got massive I think it kind of boils to I think the wife literally was like uh Genevue was just like look you know if you're gonna have a career as like a fucking rock star then you should probably you know maybe I should live in Denver

and be close to my family if we're gonna have babies and stuff right yeah if you're gonna be traveling the world then let me stay home well and that's what happened i think apologized blew up yeah and he was instantly forced into like 15 to 18 months of touring only he had no money at that time right so he couldn't even come back to see her so he convinced her to move out here or however that worked you know what i mean or they agreed to move out together or whatever and then he just kind of you know it wasn't his fault sure but i think at that point she was just like dude you know so so i i had met him here at the village i'd worked i'd been doing i was an an engineer and i had done a lot you know what i mean there was there was a period of time so you coincidentally

moved down here. It had nothing to do with them when you were engineering. No, I met Ryan literally in this building. Oh, so it's coincidence that you're from Colorado and he was living there. 100% coincidence. I always thought you guys knew each other from

home. Yeah, no. Okay. I really didn't know anybody. I mean, you know, the other kind of like big guy from Denver is Frankie, right? Right, yeah, yeah. And I didn't know Frankie. He's a lot younger than me, though, so. Sure. Wait, so when you were in, you're working as an engineer here were you like are i mean you weren't really a runner you obviously know what you're started

as a runner yeah started as a runner yeah were there people that you'd walk in and and be like man i i really want to get to know this guy but i'm just going to take his food order and just do the run dude all the time man i mean my first run here was my first run was getting coffee for shug night for shug night yeah it was like it was twilight zone because i was like this silly petty denver kid you know Sure. And, I mean, even now, bro, there's a lot more popping in Denver musically or has been with luminaires, et cetera, you know, for the last decade than there was when I lived there, you know, 2004 and earlier. So it was like, it was just nothing going on. When I moved to L.A., it was just, it was a huge eye opener, right?

So Shug Knight goes and turns to you and says, don't want to coffee? Oh, man, I can't even want to tell that story. Well, you kind of have to. I guarantee he's not listening to this podcast from his prison cell. Okay, so it has, so I can't exactly, you know, this is all, you know, I'm going to paraphrase, and I don't remember, you know, this is all just off memory, but it happens something like this. I pull up the guy that owns the village is, is, you run to tight ship, Jeff. And I love him, man.

Yeah. And, I mean, that's part. Part of the reason why I'm here now is because they're so excellent to their clients. Not always the greatest guy to work for, just because he's a, you know, he's a ballbuster. Yeah. And I'll, I wrote my little Honda Civic, you know what I mean? And I rolled up and, and the first thing Jeff said to me was just like, don't fuck this up. You know, it was one of those.

And so Shug wanted, it was like a tall cabuccino from Starbucks with eight splendos in it. Eight. Eight splendos? So I raced a Starbucks. It was my first thing, you know, and I throw the splendos in the coffee and I didn't stir it. So I, but I, so I came back, man. And I remember pulling in and like Shug was, it was like nine in the morning, okay? And he had been, you know, all night bender, you know, and he's standing in the parking lot, like on the phone.

And I pull up and Jeff's standing there and he's like, did you, you know, you better not have fucked this up or something like that, man. And I had Jeff the coffee and he gives it to Shug. Shug takes a sip and he's like, there's no Splendid in here. Because I guess he probably tasted the foam on the top, right? Yeah. So I'll never think Jeff was just like, go put fucking eight. Splend in there. And I'm like, I did.

He's like, go put another eight. So I went and put like eight more splendid in this fucking cappuccino man and he just pounded it and he was like this is great Were you sitting in front of us man? I was like oh my god I mean half of that cup was sure so that's your first day? It was my first run. Yeah I mean in a studio like this it's literally like Wayne's world right? Yeah right they're booking whoever every single so I mean you never know who you're gonna Yeah I mean Ringo star I read in a Ringo star in the hall here or something like that like one of the first you know week or two I worked here Do you say hi? that depends

right they've got they've got a big thing about that here which i get man because you know left unchecked there's a lot of cats that would just like slip the script under the oh yeah well there was a guy a runner at another studio

that I know of who was in a like his idol was in the room with us and he's like I know I'm not supposed to do this but I take a picture and he did and then I know that he got fired like the next day and I was like

Ah, man, you're just... And taking out of context, I get. Like, you know, it's... Yeah, no, and they should be able to do it. But if you multiply it by all of the new kids, it's just a free-for-all. And you know how it is, man, when you've got a lot going on, like, you and cash or whatever, you're working on stuff,

last thing you want is, like, people in your room, fucking. Right. You wrote that song. You know, you're like, dude, just know your face. There's a great sort of a quote sort of thing where someone was talking about Sting, and it's asking him about one of his big records, and, uh, you know, They ask like, you know, tell me about writing that song.

He's like, dude, I wrote that song in, you know, essentially in one day. You know? All you guys have lived with this for 10 years, 20 years, but all the answers that I've had about this song, I have the same for 20 years. You know, it's really strange. You can tell the story, but I can see why after a certain time, you know, how many times can you answer how you wrote a song that really probably took you, I don't know. I mean, we can name a number of records that were hits that were written very quickly. And a lot of them take a long time, but even how long does it really take for it to be a good story? You know, it's still, I don't know, you wrote a song.

And then it's so mysterious when other people kind of don't have that. But when you're here and you're running and you're doing all the engineering stuff, how does it go from you meeting Ryan? And then why that day are you, is it, are you allowed to say like, hey? I moved out to Los Angeles to definitely do writing and production. Right. But it was like weight tables. You were a DJ?

Well, I had a college radio show, a different type of DJ. Okay. But, but, uh, for C.U. Boulder, like, weird, super weird jazz. Like, any, like, weird experience. Like, all this shit we sample for hip-hop, basically. Right. You know. I had that show for two years or something like that or maybe a year.

But I used it as an excuse to buy as many records as I could possibly buy it. And C. You would pay for it because it was your show. Yeah, basically. It was a college show. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Is that how you got your background was just being a fan of music or your parents' career? My dad, my dad was a jazz trumpet player, man. So did you play trumpet?

No, no, I grew up playing bass. My first instrument was bass. Bass and guitar, right? Hand in hand kind of. Sure. Do you still actually play a lot, or are you mostly doing stuff? I do. I play enough to write.

It's not like a lot of us, right? Yeah, because programming and stuff was always my forte. Sure. Like, I got into, got really into, once I got kind of a drum machine, MPC type thing. Sure. I'm old, though, man. I know, probably shouldn't date you and ask you, and ask how you were. These kids are like, now they're like 15 and you have, like, logic just for free.

Or, you know what I mean? This whole thing. I mean, back in the day, you actually had to have pro tools. And, like, you know, you had to go to a studio that had pro tools because it's like a $40,000 rig. Right. You know, so yeah, man, everything was done on. So you go, you tell me again, so you meet Ryan. Okay, so what happened was I was doing a lot of, I guess I should start with Ryan, right?

I mean, like that makes sense. So the first time I met Ryan actually was we were working on this cat named Dima B. Lawn, I think he's like the, at the time anyway, he was like this kind of Russian Justin Timberlake. Ah, yes, naturally. So they had hired Timbalin. Right at his peak, too, you know. This is coming off of the Future Sex Love Sounds record. Hired him to do two songs. And so I...

And Ryan was like... Ryan was just signed to Timbalin. This pre-apologized, right? Yeah, he had signed to Timlin and was a writer to how to move out here, I think. Or whatever. You know what I mean? When Ryan moved to L.A., I think it was... Yeah, it's when they...

Right after Columbia before he's signed him. him mostly, right? There you go, and he signed a Lance Bass or something like that for a year because he won that Right. You know, Teter won some like, it was like, right? It was like a pre-MTP free American Idol kind of thing. So that's the project that I met Ryan on, I think, man. He was working on a couple songs.

I was working, we were, you know, we were kind of forced to interface. Right. Because we had to work on these songs and this whole thing. And then I just ended up, and then obviously Ryan came back through a lot for a little while there while Timberlin was coming through. And then I didn't see him for a long time, man. Went off on my own, did my own thing.

Quit working here. Ultimately, I didn't want to be an engineer. It was just how I was paying bills. And a great place to meet people in a great skill set to have. However, when you work for a studio like this, as anybody that works here can attest, like you're married to it, bro. Right.

There's 60-hour weeks. So it's just like I literally couldn't do anything else but just be an engineer. I didn't want to do that. So I quit Fote got back into writing and production Were you living in Santa Monica at the time? Were you living?

I've always lived in Venice Okay Yeah and so then I Yeah man I mean I just I was pitching shit to James Cheney At UMG when he used to work there And I was trying to like figure it out That's how I met you is to James

There you go Because James hit up Because that was like our orange connection James hit up Okay Because he hit a he hit a Brett Stair Who is the same guy connected me to Ryan and then Brett was because Brett was my booking agent he was you know he was

like you should write with null so that's how that happened was I didn't have like uh I don't think I had a publishing deal at the time so I think it was like pre all that wow man yeah like but anyway so you go and um your guys are working on the Russian Justin Timberlake so so so we worked on that stuff and then you know I would see Ryan here here and there and and uh how it really happened though was years later, I think in like, oh, 9, 08, 08. I met this girl in Denver, man, and I fell in love with her. And I started chasing her. And so I started looking for every reason I could to go back.

And so what happened is I have a buddy that lives in Denver, who owns one of the nicest recording studios in the city. And he, Ryan was coming through with a bunch of other people. As a matter of fact, I know the session, man. He was coming in with Wayne Wilkins. Louis Bianconella. Isn't that his last name? Yeah, I always forget Louis's last name.

Okay. I don't know him very well. Sam Waters. Right, of course. And they wrote Jordan Sparks Battle Thief? What was it? Battlefield? Yeah.

The song was called. Yeah, okay, so here's the deal. It was like a Love is a Battlefield for 2000. Oh, like that was like right around a halo and all that stuff. Yeah. So what had happened was my buddy had booked the session. Ryan was moving. He'd moved back to Denver and wanted a recession at this thing.

So my buddy called me and he's like, dude, I do not. He's like, I know you're not an engineer anymore. But I don't have anybody like. He was super, he wanted to. You don't have anybody big enough at that point. He's like, I don't have a high enough caliber. Exactly. It's Denver.

He's like, will you do it? Will you pinch it for me? And I was like, oh, fuck, it's Ryan. Okay. What, sure. You know what I mean? And so I did it. Did he know you from here?

Yeah. So it was like, he walked in and was like, what are you doing here? Exactly. That's exactly what it was. Yeah. And so we did that one day, or it was like two days or something like that. And then I didn't see him again, you know what I mean, for like maybe another month and a half. And I don't know.

I can't, to be honestly, man, I can't remember exactly how it went down. But I literally ran into him and Evan Bogart at a coffee shop in Denver because I was still there chasing this chick, you know, like coming back and forth. So I ran into Ryan again. And he was like, dude, you know, this is post that's the Wayne Wilkins stuff. yeah the battlefield session and he goes uh he was like i have an overlap like you know he's like my band is recording an album i think it was waking up must have been no it yeah yes it was waking up and uh they were recording it in this big old house in this neighborhood of denver called park hill which is really beautiful and he's like he's like i've got a you know we turn this entire house into a studio

we're doing a record there we're like almost finished with it he's like but i have this one week thing coming up in like three weeks where I don't have an engineer. And he's like, can you, can you please just come by? You know what I mean? And like, help us plug things in and help us record a few things and this and that. And, you know, whatever. And I was like, sure. You know, again, it was another excuse to kind of be near this chick.

So I went to the house, man, and worked with the guys for a week. Amazing how much a girl can have to do it, like, your whole career. Yeah. No, I'm dead serious, man. It's all the good thing comes to this girl. And because I really didn't want to engineer. You know, it's a rough gig, man. Right.

It's a rough gig. And, yeah, so it just happened, bro. Pretty thankless. It just happened. I got in there and I had the skill set that those guys kind of, they needed someone like me, man, because I could, you know, I can also. A lot of engineers these days, they can't get sounds. They don't know how to use mics and stuff. They do.

They can, they can set up a mic for a vocal, for a pop vocal, but a fucking, you know, C-800 into a 1073 into a CL-1B, you know what I mean? And then that's all they, they maybe, you know. And so, like, right off the bat with Warner Public, I was recording cellos. And, like, it was like, oh, let's do this, you know what I mean? And I made it happen, and I guess they liked me. So I just stuck in with them. But how did you move from being an engine? Well, first of all, well, how did you move from being an engineer?

So I started with Ryan, you know, at that point, I was pretty blatant about the fact that I was like, I was like, look, dude, I'm not an engineer. You know what I mean? Anymore? Yeah. Like, I'm doing it. Like, I was just kind of like, I'll also do this other thing, you know? Yeah. And I can't remember the song.

but there was something that I was like you know he was working, Ryan was working on and I was like, you know, I could probably you know fix the drums on that and make it a little more pop and yeah it may have been a Natasha Beddingfield thing I don't remember what was going on at that it was like 09 but it was something like

that and I did and he liked it so I started doing like more and more production for the things that he was working on you know and he's trying to finish a record while simultaneously still being Ryan Tudor and like working on nine pop songs. Sure. And I think I started to get a really good relationship happening with Brent at the time

And who's the other chief songwriter in the band And and All I remember dude was Ryan was going away on a ski trip or something like that For the weekend and Brent and I were you know The rest of us were all staying in that house or you know what I mean? Yeah, and Ryan was like you know it was the end of the record Everything had already been written And he was like let's try to beat

Let's try to beat whatever Whatever we thought the biggest song was at the time which may have been secrets or whatever it was and uh you know so brent and i screwed around did like five starts and uh when ryan came back on monday one of the starts was good life yeah and so he heard it and just like instantly wrote to do within like seven six hours we had that song fully fleshed out last song written for the record i think were you coincidentally the biggest were you ever um like were you ever asked to be a member of the band or did you ever want to be Is it weird to be such...

There was like one brief period right around then when they didn't have a bass player or something... Well, Brent... Because he's a cellist, but he didn't want to play bass, or I can't remember the situation. So weird change. You're going from fourths to fifths on your strings.

Like, it actually takes, like, I'm always impressed when someone's like, oh, I'll pick up cell and all of a sudden, like, the mental game to switch from one to the other is always, like, more impressive than people realized. But... So they were... You could have played bass with them?

Or was it like, who cares? There was a moment in time when it was like, you know, would you like to come on tour and possibly play bass? And I was like, hell no. Looking back on it, would I maybe have done it? I don't know. I've never been a performing musician, and that scared the hell out of me.

Sure. You know. That was about it, man. You know, my place with those guys was definitely, the thing was, is I was the vehicle. I could produce shit all day. all night in hotel rooms and stuff like that while while Ryan was handling business

did you tour with them a lot a lot yeah so like while you're writing this stuff you're on the road with the band well for the really are the like I called you the invisible member because your contribution is I mean I guess I've known the guys since before they broke you know it's like the contribution you've had

to their to the writing is obviously pretty significant you know and it's and nobody it's not like you're hidden or anything but it's an interesting thing to be such a key member of a band and not be a stage member of the band. Do people treat you because

you're so close to the project? Do people treat you differently and do you have like groupies? Do you like one republic people know Do they know you? At one point a while ago yeah maybe there were some because I had a Facebook account

and we were all kind of tied in together and you know one republic fans would find me and just ask a lot of random questions and girls with, you know what I mean? But really, I just trying to get to the band. Right, right. How do you, do you write for other people while you're on the road?

Like, how do you write for other things other than one Republic? Or is it over the last two years of touring? Is that, you know, the new album just came out, and you were saying how you spent essentially 23 months on it. Yeah. Were you able to work on other things? This time around, not really, you know, we didn't do too much. And it's just because of the nature of how this record went down.

You know, it was just different. It was different than the last two that I'd done with them. Was it fun? It was fun. But it's, you know, with bands, right? She's, man, there's this huge component of, uh, that has everything to do with kind of like finding the next sound, right? I mean, I guess we all deal with that.

But for a band, you know, for those guys in specific, I feel like they had this really huge weight this time around. Do you feel that weight? of course because I'm kind of like you know well at least on you know I'm like with this last record I'm constantly like kind of pitching Ryan starts and and you know everybody was trying to kind of find their feet and figure out a sound that ultimately would work

for the record and it's wild man because it's so different that you know the the top line game is is the relevancy comes in lyric writing and Melodies, I think, math-wise, the basic overarch is the same.

I think that da-da-it-da-da-it-da-it that you get in the whole like Fetti meets Drake kind of thing that's all over pop right now. Like I think eventually that's just a fad of this era melodically. But I think melody-wise songs tend to be, you know, the same since the 50s as far as that goes. And the hard part is in, you know, the production. to stay relevant and in the lyrics to stay relevant. Yeah, I mean, how do you stay relevant? Yeah, that's exactly it.

And then for a band like this, you know, we're working on songs and you've got, I mean, you know, it look, man, make no mistake, it's their show. I was just a hired gun, you know. My job as a producer was just, in my opinion anyways, just to help them achieve their vision and try to keep them on, you know, track. It makes you a good co-react.

you know yeah yeah i mean i'm not in the band i don't have you know there's so the dynamic is so wild because you've got band members that you know these guys these poor guys have to go out and tour these songs for the next decade or you know yeah or whatever or at least the immediate you know future and it's like they want to do songs that they believe in it's amazing to see how big they've gotten you know worldwide you're talking about just a massive massive band they were already huge but counting stars was like that for me that was when i saw them go from They were doing, you know, 23 to 3,000 person shows in Europe and stuff like that. I would go on tour with them.

And then, you know, they went straight to, you know, pretty much arenas, right? Like, bigger. So crazy. Do you start from, do you produce out finished songs now with them? Or is it mostly that you start, like, do you start from tracks? Do you start from songs? Does it depend on this last album? With those guys, yeah, it really depended, man.

They, you know, Ryan is, in my opinion, man, Ryan's at his best when he's doing it, man, when he's just, you know, there's some certain magic that he has when he's at the keys or a guitar. When he's guiding the chords while he's coming up with top line, you know, so I tried to keep him, you know, at least with the stuff that I did with him on this record, like Let's Her Tonight and Choke.

And I did a lot of the more kind of, you know, you know, I don't know, rootsy songs. Right. And that's the kind of stuff I wanted to do. That's the kind of stuff I wanted to bring out, you know? Yeah. And they were,

and obviously you've heard the record, you know, they've got this whole other kind of component on the record that's like more, like a funk kind of disco, syncopated thing going on. I just, I wanted both, man.

How soon do you have to start writing, like, the next one? I, to be honest with you, man, you know, I don't even know. I don't even know. Because really I'm not.

I was obviously, you know, I jumped in on this last record with him and we went super hard. But, oh, well, I did the Sean Mendez thing. Oh, right? She did last summer. Yeah. And I literally did that, like, at night. Yeah. After we were, you know, working on our shit.

Did you write that? Did you write that on your own? Who did you write that with? I was brought in. That was a co-write with Camila. Nice. And Sean. And then I think there was another writer.

Yeah. Yeah. They'd come to me with that. How does it feel when you get to write songs sort of away from, I mean, great writing teams are great writing teams for reasons. We've done interviews with McKell. You know, we didn't do tour and McKell. No, because of Tor, we'll do tour too sometime. But, like, you know, you see Rogers and Hammerstein, Rogers and Hart.

Like, there are different writing teams and different things. It's like, what does it feel like when you work outside of the writing team? Is it sort of, is it exciting? or does it make you kind of nervous nervous no i love it man and i've been doing it i mean i haven't written with ryan in a long time him and i i mean we're doing a song with ella henderson yeah and uh we've got a couple other things that have kind of been but we haven't written anything new in a while sure and uh it just has a lot to do with the fact that uh uh we all just kind of split you know yeah maybe when the record was almost almost done and everything was it mixed everybody kind

of went their own ways and stuff so i mean i've only been writing with other people Yeah, yeah. Dude, it depends. It's a tough thing, you know? I like writing with Ryan because the one thing I like about that guy, man. This is a very industry-centric kind of thing. Like, you have to be in it to know. But a lot of topliners, dude, are like that, like, it's that day of shit.

You know, like, for instance, if Ryan and I are working on a song, like, we'll go back and rework the top line 20 times. Sections, you know, constantly, or the track. Or whatever. You know, we'll go and go. and go and go, I mean like, fuck man, that's the Demi LeVado song that Ryan and I did years ago called Neon Lights. Yeah. I mean, I was like, I worked on

the production on that song for like five months on, just making changes and stuff. And then it's like It's song craft versus song writing. Absolutely, man, and I come, you know, and then I do this thing in writing sessions and top liners, man. They come in, they want to do their little thing in bounce. And that's it. Just send me

it when it sounds like a hit, you know what I mean? And it's like, what if a section needs to be rewritten? What if like, you know what I mean? Like, there are like top liners that don't want to come back in the room again. I'm not going to name any names. But I'm just like literally like whatever they give you that day is what you're supposed to run with. And I'm just sitting there thinking, well, that's funny because I've worked with this dude, you know, who's a very legendary songwriter. And he's not too good to go back and fucking rewrite entire sections.

Like, you know what I mean? To exhaustion until we get the song write. How are you so hot shit that you can't do it? You know, so that's the hard part. You grew up around jazz, which is all. improv, like the best jazz musicians are ones that improvise best. Yeah, true.

But the actual refrain, the actual chorus and jazz, that thing took forever to write. And then the solos happen, and that's just a moment. But solos and pop don't really happen, you know?

And even those are really edited. You know, it's like, I mean, no offense to Johann, but don't kid yourself that the guitar solo and Dangerous Woman is like a one take kind of thing you know like solos don't really happen that organically and

it's so much of that the crafting the chorus takes all this time it takes time yeah it's just a different model you know what what songs have you had that have worked that were just like came super fast yeah like did burn

or did like so good you know like some of these songs that sound like burn is one of those things that sound like it could have been written in five minutes and probably took you know months to right right right which is what makes that great that record's amazing

man and I wasn't there for the inception of that so I was brought in later did you so you know how where I've always wondered this so it's a random question but when it's like burn burn burn burn and it's it's like melodined on that one burn right

that must have an after shoot is gone, right? Or is that like where it's just like, oh, that would be cool. That's on tether, man. That's on tether. Like something about that one note. I always am like, that's really cool because clearly that was done later and it's actually like in that genre

is such a cool effect. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, it seems like it was planned, but it clearly was done afterwards. Yeah. Oh yeah, man. Yeah, that was a tether move for sure. And I can't remember specifically why. I mean, that note was augmented. Obviously, it sounds. It's

worked. Sure. But yeah, so with regard to, you know how it goes, man, and some of them come super quick, right? Yeah. And sometimes the production you do day of is like just minimal enough or whatever, and it works, and it's perfect. And then everything you try to add down the road, just whatever, clouds the song, it doesn't make it sound any better. Sure. So, I mean, you know, counting stars was the track portion of that song came super quick.

It's very basic, but I think Ryan's been a lot of time rewriting lyrics. Right. And kind of going back and forth. Do you think it makes a difference or do you think sometimes like change? Because sometimes when I, when someone's like, hey, trying to tweak lyrics in a verse, I think it's different when you're the artist, I think, because you want to make sure you're saying something. But sometimes I think tweaking the lyrics in the second verse, like, I don't know who's listening to that. I don't know if I, I couldn't sing you lyrics to any of the songs that I've had that have been successful.

I couldn't see any of the verses. Right. I probably couldn't even sing the chorus to a few of them. I get it, man. Yeah, so, I mean, basically, like, picking your battles. Yeah, I mean, sometimes I think the editing process is, it's, I'm not saying that you shouldn't go. You need to be proud of it in the end,

but sometimes it's like, I don't know if that really makes a difference. The Swedish sort of thought process, when they don't speak the language first. Right. You know, it's about the sound of the words. often more than the meaning. Yeah. Well, isn't it, this might be total bullshit.

Yeah. They can call bullshit on me. But, but like, it, like, with Ryan's kind of songwriting, which is very lyric-centric,

right? It's all about, like, a classic lyric, you know, versus the Swedes. I think, I,

know, you just said it, man, like this, I feel like the Swedes will, they'll compromise lyric for sake of phonetics and how it fits.

Yeah, any day. You know what I mean? even if it was the most beautiful fucking line ever written, I don't know. But then on the other side, you know, a guy like Tedder will definitely compromise, you know,

within reason, a melody, or even, yeah, just a rhythm for a killer lyric. Well, it's also if you're, you know, if you're writing for, I mean, you know, I guess for Ryan, a lot of those songs are really international. But it seems like that the Swedish thought process

is that you, you know, you're writing for half of your your audience that doesn't they don't speak English so it doesn't really matter about what you're saying as much as how you're saying it yeah yeah and it's that what does it I mean there's so much truth to that I mean I guess within right well you don't want it to be shit it still has to be clever somewhere somewhere like the hook or the title like it can't just be throw away right because no one I'll ever cut it and the artist won't want to cut it and it's not real and it's not emotional I'm just saying that there are probably times where that extra tweak

I don't know if it makes a difference. Well, aren't we kind of coming down off of that now? Like, isn't everyone a little bit, like, the Swede thing was just, like, really took hold, you know, for a couple years. And now, even, everybody's kind of, like, letting things breathe a little bit. At least with some of the sessions I've been in recently, you know, everybody's, like, I think at one point, everybody's like, we have to do the math. We have to do the math because the Swedes are doing the math and it's working. We have to do the math as well. You know, it was kind of one of those.

Now everybody's kind of like, okay, you know. Interesting. I mean, I think part of the math is knowing when to script the math, you know. Knowing when to break the rules. You know, and even saying that this, you know, right now you have the number one song at top 40 is by MXM, you know, is by the Swedes. And, you know, even if that's the move to push back from the over-math kind of single, those math songs still work. I think it also depends if you're pitching a song versus when you're with the artist. I think it's easier to pitch sort of a classic math song.

Yeah, totally. You're totally right, man. So watching you go on stage and get your Grammy was pretty cool. Oh, thank you, sir. It's pretty wild. Yeah, where do you keep your Grammy? It's at my place, you know, just on a table. Is it like on the case, actually?

I don't do it, man I try not to hang anything Why? I've superstitious, I guess Why, what's this superstitching? I don't know, man I mean, this is what I was saying about the monarchy thing Like, I like to hide everything

So that I feel like I've not done a fucking thing Because that motivates you? Yeah, I just don't I'm hate tooting my own horn, man Why? I don't know, man I just never cared Because it's so weird

I'm just never giving a shit When I was like nine years old, I got MVP or something like that for swimming. Like I was, you know what I mean? A competitive swimmer, I didn't even show up for the trophy. And like they were so bummed because it was like every other swimmer wanted that trophy so bad. And I just didn't even. So you actively push back from that. And I wasn't, I'm not too big of a fan of the BMI things and all of that either.

Going to those. I love them and I love everybody. It's just, for me, I'm just very self-conscious and I hate going up there. and like you know it's really interesting do your parents like was it had where they did they give you so much love

that you're like I don't need love from the outside or do they not you know like where does it it's such it's so unique because I think you know we're talking about LA and how it can swallow you up and I feel like the way it swallows people up is because they want to be famous they want to be recognized

and it never is enough nothing's ever enough here man. But it is enough if you're not, if you don't care about the accolades. That's it, man. Well, we could pull out cliches all day, right? Like, some people move to L.A., man, the city changes them. Some people change the city, right?

Yeah. Some people get here and they, you know, one of the funniest, I think L.A. is one of those cities where, like, two weeks after moving here, you now want a bunch of shit that you didn't even know existed before you got here. Yeah. I want to fuck it. You know what I mean? I want a black wraith with 23-inch rims, you know?

You didn't even know what a Rolls Rath was before you moved here, dude. I didn't know what it was. You just said it. And not only that, LA likes weird. I just looked it out. LA loves winners, right? Loves winners. Does not like losers.

So, you know, there's a lot of external. When someone moves on, I was like, welcome to L.A. where the streets are paved with actors' dreams. Yeah. No, that's it. Don't let all the, don't let all the palm trees and frozen yogurt fool you. It's a tough place. Don't you want, do you want things at all?

Like, what do you do? Now that you have, like, you have so many, so many hits, like, do you live in a nice house? Do you drive a nice car? I mean, you know, don't you think the best thing to do is just kind of hide, man? And do your, stay humble and do your thing. The most important thing is to last, I think. That's all I think about, man. And you've been in this game.

Yeah. Everybody as long as I have. And it's like, and you've had a really killer year. And I had a really killer year, like last year or whatever, year before, 15, I think, right? last year and uh i mean it's it's really just just being able to deal with the ebbs and flows of the industry man that's all i care about when when 2015 ends and you're you're winning bMI songwriter of the year um are you thinking oh yeah i'll be able to sustain this level of success next year too or like how do you emotionally deal with when you're at the peak you know it it's an ego thing

isn't it? Yeah. You know, I've... Dude, I'm so humble. I didn't get... Look, dude, I didn't sign a songwriter deal until I was 32. So, I mean, and even then, it was a fluke me even getting in in the first place. I didn't even want to be a song...

Really a pop songwriter, man. I just kind of didn't know what it was. And I was too immersed in just doing hip-hop beats, and that's what I listen to and that's what I loved, you know. And, I don't know, circling back around. I still are. I walked in and you were still like listening to music. Like on my way over, I'm listening to podcasts, you know, not, you know, about nothing. And you're in here still sort of studying beats. That's just like, is that the radio DJ in you?

Dude, it's the just trying to stay current thing, I think, you know. I mean, first of all, you got to love it. You got to love it. I think, right? I love you said before. You have to go all in. have a plan B I mean it will not work in the city

you will get crushed yeah yeah man I mean LA's right you just don't can't let it get to you though that's the thing you know and some people do well here and some people don't most of the stuff that I've done man when you're talking like burn counting stars all that none of those records

were written here I can't as a matter of fact think of one record that I've done in the last eight years that was written in LA but you've done so many songs here yeah well I've worked on them here but they weren't but you know what I mean they were conceived somewhere else so do you travel a lot then or you just

well look I did I did like 30 countries last year with the band um finishing the record yeah and I mean we went everywhere you know what I mean from like you should host it you should host a writing camp and even just in Santa Barbara or something it's like I know I know she just put together like five people and be like let's get out of here well you know what man because I just wrapped you know I've had like this the plan for the last year and a half two years to kind of you know sign up a writer or two of my own and kind of start doing that stuff and branching out so

this last couple months has been my have you signed some writers then? I'm signing one guy a producer teach what you know man right that's what you were saying when we walked in because I feel I feel like I want to find

I've always wanted to find a producer that I could just sort of bring around and have for a lot of things and but in reality when it comes down to developing a writer, either I'm going to give that producer really bad advice on how to be a real

finisher, because the minute I start talking to him, I'm going to be talking about how Topline works. Yeah, yeah. And I won't be able to give like actual advice. Exactly. What advice do you give that guy? Like, he's just starting and you're like, welcome to Los Angeles, this place,

he'll swallow you whole. What advice you give a new guy? Well, man, with a lot of the, it's really, just the thing I kind of try to impart on them right away is to, it's the perspective of the song, in my opinion.

You know, I mean, producers, obviously, it's like anything else, you know, they're, they're so involved in the nuts and bolts and the mechanics of, of the sounds and everything. They get lost in it, man, just like a keyboard player, you know what I mean, is like throwing in little licks everywhere because he's super good or like

a guitar player just can't help him so. Same with a lot of producers, right? Like, they're just, everything is so busy because you know, in an effort to really give it their all, they do and they just go so hard. You just have to kind of get them to step back, you know, sometimes like...

Giving it your all doesn't mean you have to play everything. It does not mean, there's not a hole they're not willing to fill, you know what I mean, with some type of sound or some shit. It's just in getting them to kind of step back and hear the song and knowing when to go crazy on the production, but make sure that the thing is in it,

you know what I mean? It's even worth taking a shot at first. Second of all, getting it to a place where it may or may not work at radio where the chorus is pop and where everybody's excited about it. And you know what I mean? And then you can kind of... Counting stars when you start saying how simple the production is to you. You know, and you get into songs

like, love yourself, and you get into songs like seven years. And these songs that, like, that kill it at radio, some of them are way simple. You know, there's just nothing else. A hit song is not basically. A hit song is not based on how loud that hi-hat is.

No. You know? If anything, it'll only pull from how good the song is. That's exactly it, man. And I got that, you know what I mean? I had that training kind of 101

from, you know, the Ryan Teter thing because at his core, he, you know, he's a pop songwriter, man.

So the song had to be there, you know, 100%, the chorus had to be there before we started dialing in, you know what I mean, diving into the other side of things. Oh,

it's a waste of time of it. Yeah, absolutely. But you'd be surprised, right? And I get it, man. I get it. I mean, I was, you know what I mean? I came from that producer side of it too. They're just looking at things differently. And I think there are better ways to. Would you ever sign an established writer? Yeah. You know, like somebody. As long as I'm not going to butt heads with them. That's, you know what I mean? On every single thing. Like what advice would you give somebody who, let's say that you find somebody who's, you know, there are a lot of writers who have had some success. There's a producer that I like me. I'm not going to name his name, but I mean, I would sign him in a second. I just, you know. You know, he's maybe a little too pop and I can't afford him, you know, but I would. So what do you? I don't know. How do you advise that guy?

Like, you're only signing someone that you can in a way help. Like, how do you help an established guy? Well, I, you know, for me, honestly, I try to sign people or I'm trying to sign people that can help me as much as I help them. Okay. You know. Yeah, you want to find collaborators. Yeah. And kind of divvy things out and stuff like that.

Every time I add something, I think that it's going to be, I can give them the work. What it does, I mean, on some level, yeah, I can have my writers go and do sessions that I wouldn't normally be doing. And, you know, I almost always sign girls. Interesting. I have signed two artists that are girls, two writers that are girls, you know. And it's like, because I can't do that, but I understand the songwriting part. And then at least that's something I can't do. But for the most part, it definitely, it doesn't necessarily limit the amount of work.

work I have. Right. You know? I think the dream is that you find someone who can do exactly what you do. Yeah. You know, but that's not possible because that's what you do. Yeah. And you're always going to have a say and like, yeah, but I mean.

Well, the guy that I'm signing, I mean, you know, he can beat the pants off of me with production, man, for sure. Oh, cool. Well, in his own way. Yeah. Right. You know, they're just, I kid, man. It's weird too to say that with like, you know, however many huge ass records.

It's interesting to it. But that's you who doesn't have a platinum record up on their wall. Wow. I have my pile of records and whatever award things. And they're sitting next to a couch. Okay. And I have this image of going. There's a couple writers have been to where it's just floor to ceiling, you know, platinum platinum.

And I kind of like, I kind of want to. somewhere in my life where I have it in a way for my grandkids to walk in and be like oh that's fucking cool you know like grandpa wrote for I don't know flowrida like whoever that

guy was you know like I think that's where and I think legacy is stupid because I think in the end like we'll be dead and nobody's going to talk about what pop songs I had like people don't remember don't know Franz list is they know who Mozart is

Like, they, they, most, the kids don't know who Ringo Starr is. They know who Paul McCartney is at best, you know? Yeah, exactly. So it's like, they're not going to pay attention to, like, whatever I leave. But I kind of think that having those plaques up in a room just to have. I agree, man. Some point would be cool. Yeah.

No, I try not to put it. I don't want them, like, up everywhere. Yeah. But I kind of want them up everywhere. I don't begrudge someone for doing it. Yeah. No, I don't either. Yeah.

I think it's, it's just, for me, it's. It's too intimidating, man, to... I don't know. I just... It's a personal thing. I'm going to give you a list of a few people. Okay. And I just kind of want to hear what your thoughts are.

Sure. Adam Levine. Love him, man. Yeah, I love that guy. You've had, like, a bunch of records with them. Yeah. Maybe done three or four songs with them. Maps is probably the biggest, right?

Love somebody as well. Oh, love somebody. Right, that was number one. Back to back. That's crazy. singles, I think. Yeah, yeah, because it was the last single of the previous, of over-exposed and then into... Yeah, yeah. Oh, I mean, that guy's rad, right? I mean, he, uh, not only is an excellent player.

He was an excellent musician, like, I remember him just beating the shit out of the drums one day. Yeah, people don't realize how good of a guitarist he is. No, I mean, yeah, he's, yeah, it's unbelievable, man. So, I mean, yeah, rad guy. Taylor Swift. Badass. Yeah. Tough. Tough. She's a tough chick, man.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. You know, yeah, I mean, I did a couple things with her. And, I mean, talented, too. Yeah. A-list writer. Imagine if, yeah.

There are a couple people I've been in the room with where it's like, if they weren't artists, they would be the biggest top liners in the game. Probably. Adele was one of them, too, bro. I mean, everything, that chick, everything that comes out of her mouth is, in my opinion. You didn't work with Adele, though. Dude, I did. I did, like, two different writing trips to London. two different...

Did you get stuff on the record? Ryan and I did like 11, 12 starts with her or something like that maybe and maybe fleshed out like four songs, five songs. And then the only thing she ended up using was this song called Remedy that her and Ryan had done

before I had anything to do with any of it. Unfortunately, I didn't get a song. Trust me, man, I mean, I'd be Grammy nominated for the second year if I had something on that album. Ellie Goulding. Yeah. Ellie, you know, I love Ellie.

Her voice is so sick. I saw her live and I was like, I was floored. You know, you hanged? I didn't think, I thought she was like a pop. I guess this is one of the problems that we were trying to adjust and trainer for this. And he was talking about the misogyny and the music business. And I think that there's like the feel of like pop stars of these girls not being real musicians. Right.

You know, like there's like this thing. where people talk about, oh, it's all autotune and all that shit. And in reality, you see someone like Ellie Goulding Live and shame on me for not realizing that that girl can fucking perform and sing and handle. Right, yeah. She's super badass, man. Well, the thing about, like, you'll write with her, right? Yeah.

And, you know, she's not really singing. We're just, you know, you're just kind of going through getting everything happening. And then she gets on the mic to cut a demo. vocal. That's kind of the thing, man. And then once she starts singing, you're like, holy fuck, that's Ellie Golding. She's such a discernible, rad voice, man. Sure.

Ella Henderson. Ella's awesome. Such a sweet girl, man. And when I first worked with her, when I first met her, she had, you know, her biggest thing, right, to date was taking second or third or something like that on X Factor, UK, Simon Seinder. and

when I first met her, man Ghost might be my favorite song that's on your resume. I just think that's like one of those songs where I was like, fuck, I wish I wrote that one. I usually don't really wish I write you know, kind of anything,

but I sort of wish I wrote that one. That was a good one. That song's rad, man. It came out pretty cool. And I mean, everybody worked at that one, man. Everybody kind of jumped in and made that song happen for sure. Ryan Tudder.

Ryan's rad, man. I mean, he's been my biggest mentor. Yeah. I'm sure in all of this. What's next for you? You know, man, I'm just going to try to last, man, and write some great songs and do the thing, you know. Do you ever worry? Thank goodness I don't have the, I don't have any one Republic's stuff to deal with for a while.

Yeah. Do you worry? Yeah, of course, man. I mean, don't we all? This is such a brutal city. Is that what you're talking about? I don't know. I don't know because, like, you know, I've always thought of you.

I look like I'm just like... Yeah, because you're a really chill guy. I mean, I'm a pretty chill guy too. I actually with a night guard because I grind my teeth so bad. Oh, wow. Yeah. I stress. I stressed on this last record hard, man.

Politics. Did you take a vacation? No. Do you ever take things? No, man. And the thing that kind of sucked was I worked on the One Republic thing for so long that when I finally was like free from it, my management was just like, yes, we can start throwing him in everything.

And I was like, well, fucking wait a second here, you know. I haven't even been cut my advance from the Warner Public Records yet. You're already, you've already completely filled my sky, you know. Like, I don't, I don't take vacations very well because I spend two days into it.

I'm like, I wish I could go somewhere. Yeah, I just, I can't disconnect. And, but then you look at those you know, Scandinavian writers, and they all take two months off. They compartmentalize really well. And none of us, and none of us are like, oh, they left for two months.

We won't write with them when they're back. Why do we have this fear? Like, where is it come from that we don't just take, like, significant amount of time off regularly? I don't know, man. It's like the American business model, isn't it? Aren't we the hardest? Like, we take less vacation than anybody on Earth, I think.

Your dad's a jazz trumpet player. Like, it wasn't, you know, is he like, you know, was he working all the time? Well, you know, my dad's stories is kind of a whole different. for one man. You know, he was a trumpet player kind of like first, you know, before he had kids and got married and stuff. Then he put it aside. Oh, okay. And then did a bunch of other stuff, so.

So he did, you know what I mean? I don't remember him having that kind of grind. Our grind is different though, isn't it? But don't you think some of it's because you love your job so much that... Yeah, I love it. I'm like so happy doing it. It's just it's your hustle. No doubt. And so that's what it is, man. Yeah. We can't take a break from our hustle.

Yeah. Because it's also where we find pleasure. right? Sure. I think that's the thing with us. We work hard because we want to work hard. Yeah. Is there fear? Yeah.

I mean, we're all afraid that like the last dollar we just made is the last dollar we're going to make. We're all afraid that, you know what I mean? That we'll never get a cut again. We're entrepreneurs. I mean, like nobody, there is no boss.

There's no severance package. No. And that's why this city's so weird, right? Because everybody in this town is in the same boat we are. So they're a trying to figure out, trying to manage the thing they're in, the moment while simultaneously trying to line up the next meal you know what i mean that's not different in any other business right yeah isn't it is it i don't know i've lived here since

i've lived here since i was 18 i've lived here since i was 18 i genuinely don't know if like you know if i'm a banker make no mistake we're nuts man i mean is your is your girl in uh uh the industry no we'll see doesn't she think you're bat shit crazy man yeah i guess that's probably why she liked me in the first yeah i mean to civilians i call them civilian yeah i call them muggles isn't that what they're called and like in uh in uh in muggles yeah isn't that in uh with harry potter it's like the humans oh like they kind of like wizards and muggles and it's like the you know there's like wizards and then they're the people who don't really understand the how it's really done you know dude i'm my old girlfriend the one that i did from

denver and that stuff one day she just looked at me and she goes god i wish i was I wish I could, you know what I mean, make a living like you, just messing around with keyboards all day. That's what she said. Well, it is a little bit of a video game. There's no doubt. Like, I don't know if there's a difference between sitting in a computer and playing on logic or sitting in front of a PlayStation and playing a video game.

And I think that's why I can't put it down is that, you know, a lot of people are like, I am so backlogged on work. But I'm sitting here having conversations with you. That's inspiring. And even when it comes down to like these tracks, I was like, I'll work on it during break. Because during break, it's like, what am I going to do? Not right?

I actually really enjoy it. It makes me happy. Taking a break just makes me feel like I'm not working. Yeah, I know. Which is totally weird. It's weird. Yeah, the mentality is weird. But it's also, it's just, it's so fun.

We're also in the thick of it. Like, you know, I see your Instagram. Like, you're obviously busy working. things. So when you're working on things, it's really, you know, it's easy. Right. In the way this industry works, it's like, you know, with the L.A. Henderson stuff that I've been doing recently, I mean, you know, I'm dealing with the record labels overseas that are texting me at four in the morning or however that works, you know. So that's the other part of it. It's just a 24 hour a day thing. Yeah. It never sleeps. It never sleeps, bro. It's not that we don't sleep,

it's that it doesn't sleep and we're forced to stay awake with it. I remember saying when we were first writing and I was doing like some of these late night you know late night sessions still in my life and saying which you're not doing anymore oh no no no I don't work at nights and I don't work weekends and I and I I was up at 6 o'clock this morning and I was working on some lyrics stuff because I was in bed and that's when I start working it's quiet

it's actually the sun's not even up yet and it's like I don't need to be I don't like that the concept of like oh I'm grinding all the time I don't think that that's realistic And I don't think I'm creative. No. I kind of say that I'm not creative after 5.30. Yeah.

Like that last half, hour and a half is me really struggling to get a song finished. Yeah. Well, I mean, and I was an engineer for years just like, you know, in these sessions where people would just hang. Yeah. 24 hours a day they were just dicking off. Yeah. And you're like, you're hanging here because it's a studio and like girls are coming in. And like, whoa, wait a say.

You know, work is literally the last thing when you guys are trying to do here. I think my tomb says. Stone's going to say something like, you know, working on the second verse should be done in a second. You know, like, because, like, that's my most common tweet, or tweet text to my wife. It's like, you know, it's like, at that point at night, it's like, it shouldn't take too long. And I'm spending two hours just trying to get this fucking second verse that no one cares.

And I'm going to end up having a tweak when you call me later and say, like, can you come back and tweak it anyway? So it's like, I'd rather copy and paste a fucking first verse Because if you don't like the song because I didn't change the lyrics in the second verse Fuck you It's like It's a lifelong hustle isn't it? It just is

I read this thing on Anna And he was Woody Allen right And he said that every time like one of his films goes into You know the minute his script goes into filming He starts writing a new script He's always got something new you know that he's working on and I think that's a big

that's that's simple you know what I mean in a super simple way that's that's that's the model for for what we do as well well thank you for doing this and you know I have to

by by closing it there aren't a lot of people that I root for more unconditionally than you like I've known you for so long and to watch you succeed like you have has been inspiring and has made me be a fuck man

when you start working with certain people and they start breaking before you do and eventually we all did fine but you start seeing that you're like man I need to work harder I need to figure out why are these working and it's like it's always been fun to watch you do

really good songs that happen to also do well commercially and you know to see this success has been really exciting so congratulations and uh Welcome back to Los Angeles. Thank you, sir. And likewise, you've had a hell of a year ago.

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited, by Miles Berg's Mo and published by Big Deal Music.

A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and the writer is. Midnight Memories was originally I Love KFC, like until the very end. We didn't have the chorus lyric. We wrote all these lyrics. No way. Stumbling in the street Singing, singing, singing, singing, I love KFC Wow.

Yeah. Do you think that would have changed, that would have made the song bigger? Way bigger. Yeah. Until next time, this is Ross Gowling.