And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 160: Citizen Cope

Episode Date: August 22, 2022

Today’s guest is an American songwriter / producer. He has released seven studio LP's that have garnered him a loyal following despite never being fully embraced by mainstream media and commercial radio. Describing his music is difficult, he's been inspired by artists such as John Lennon and Stevie Wonder to Bob Marley and Outkast. His compositions have been recorded by Carlos Santana, Dido and Richie Havens. In 20 years of touring, he has built a devout following, performing at sold out theaters and ballrooms across the country. Over time, our guest’s music has become the soundtrack to the lives of those who have embraced it and he continues to inspire audiences through what can only be described as deep personal connection. And The Writer Is… Citizen Cope aka Clarence GreenwoodWatercolor by: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey what's up? It's Paige MacDonald and this is your weekly music industry update. Grammy-nominated songwriter Drew Falconry Dakaro, recently known for M by Holds Number One Hot AC song, Numb Little Bug, has signed a publishing deal with position music music.

Cobalt is set to become the first global music publisher to release a set of fully licensed direct-to-fan NFTs with a music lyric NFT collection called an electro-revival. Music industry veteran Alison Hammamura has left Anthem Entertainment to join 1RPM as the general manager of its Los Angeles office, additionally taking the role of vice president of ANR. Shazam has launched national top 200 charts in 17 new countries across Africa and Asia, including new city charts for each country. TikTok rival Triller is being sued by superstar producers Timbaland and Swiss Beats for missing payments related to Triller's acquisition of their song battle brand Verses, which Triller acquired in early 2021. Camp LA 2022 will be held at the Rose Bowl Stadium delivered by October 15th through 16th and will consist of one of the biggest live music, K-pop experiences in history with Monster X, Xos, Kai and Gianzomi, Super Juniors, and more. A new report by U.S. Market Monitor,

Luminate, shows that consumers in the U.S. spend almost 60% of their leisure time on platforms with advertisements. Warner recorded music has entered a global joint venture with Lee Daniels music, spearheaded by director, writer, and producer Lee Daniels. Monty Olson has joined Litmus Music as president. Los Angeles-based China-focused marketing company East Goes Global has closed a $1 million seed funding round. The company says that it is now valued at $10 million. Capital Records has signed virtual artist FN Mecca, who was created using thousands of data points compiled from video games in social media and has over 10 million followers on TikTok.

Lamont Dozier, one of the greatest and most successful songwriters to emerge at Motown in the 60s, has sadly passed away at the age of 81. A big thank you to Hannah Rosenberg of Megahouse for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne The Writer is. Welcome to End the Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. This week's iconic grassroots songwriter-producer artist has garnered a fanatical following. He's the kind of artist that epitomizes the sound so much that seemingly every male artist since has been compared to his eclectic mix of alt, reggae, soul, R&B, folk, rock, etc., etc. he's in every A&R's vinyl collection because this writer is an original with seven LP releases.

He has toured for over 20 years and performed at sold out theaters and ballrooms across the country. All the way from here, amongst many other places, this artist is a model for artistic integrity. And the writer is one of my faves Clarence Greenwood, aka Citizen Cope. What's going on, Ross? Thank you. Beautiful introduction. I appreciate that. Hey, man.

I mean, I want to go and tell your story, but before we even start, I don't know. This is an interesting interview because you've done, you've released so much music that, I mean, I was in a meeting this morning and I said that we were doing this interview. It's like a whole room of people just being like, oh, man, I love, I have, and they're talking about this album and that album and this record and that record. It's like your reach within Muso fans is just, you know, incomparable. So this is, this is rad. I'm excited. Well, let's start from the beginning. You were born in Memphis, which is obviously a pretty famous music town, but you weren't raised there.

Tell me about your childhood from, you know, that is sort of like an epicenter of music. Well, yeah, it's interesting. My mother's family was from Memphis and I was just born there. And growing up, I was always, when people say, where are you from? Because I would be in D.C. and I would have kind of a southern accent because most of the people that raised me, me had deep southern accents and so including my mother and so I would always just say

I thought that where were you from I was born in Memphis so but I was raised in D.C. So I'm I really don't have any recollection of Memphis but later on like really started getting into the sound of Memphis which was like Willie Mitchell's production a friend of mine turned me on to his records

when I was living in Austin and you know it obviously heard the Al Green stuff but didn't really get into it heavy and you know of course they had all the stack stuff and I knew of Elvis because of just his iconic

status and everything like that and Jerry Lee Lewis but also the great musicians like Steve Kropper and ducked on and all the great drummers and musicians that comprised of all the stuff that high records did from back in the day, which I thought was kind of weird that I was born there, but I ended up becoming a huge fan of the music that came out of that city and that region. Your parents didn't play music, right?

No. but you have such knowledge of those roots where you come from did they listen to a lot of music or is that really something you had to find on your own no they had a lot of music they listened to a lot of music I guess I guess that's the case with everyone they had a good vinyl collection and then you know um was around my father he would have a eight track you know in the in the car and you know always playing something and And, you know, my mom had a lot of vinyl.

What car did your dad have that he had an A-track in it? Cadillac. You have like a specific, if I think of my dad's, the music we would listen to in my dad's car, it was always like Derek and the Dominoes or maybe like Fleetwood Mac or something like that. But what do you think of when you think of like what A-track would he put in? I think a lot of Otis Redding. Yeah. played Otis writing a lot.

It kind of makes sense, knowing where you go musically later. You don't really start your process of writing music until you're basically done with high school, right? Yeah, I didn't. I mean, I played trumpet in elementary school and tried to pick up the guitar with friends had guitars and stuff like that that were kind of like, quote, jam.

or whatever, but, you know, taught me a couple things like bar chords and stuff like that. Had a lot of fun just, you know, trying to learn a Southern man or something, a Neil Young song. And then kind of got into poetry after high school, just started, had some events happen.

And, you know, these words came. And I didn't, you know, I didn't really do anything particularly well going up until learning out of, or just writing, you know, in general. What were the events? I had just a close family relative. It was my, kind of my father figure passed away when I was right out of high school and got sick right after that. So I stayed, a state, you know, I didn't go to college or a state with him in a small town called. Vernon and I was named after him and kind of was great experience just having the last time with him and you know it was such an inspiration he's just a hard worker and and a good man you know just

very simple kind of west Texas you know when you say when you say that you know he was inspiring or encouraging did you ever play let read him any of the poetry or was it all a reaction to losing him yeah it was a reaction to lose i think that's the a light bulb kind of came out because it was kind of a cathartic moment when i was in you know the view his body after he passed away and i was there when he died so it was an interesting thing of like like this most cathart i don't know i explain it but You know, it was just all these emotions came up and it's just like sobbing for a long time. So it was like, I haven't, you know, luckily experienced anything like that sense,

but there was something freeing that happened in that moment. And I started writing poetry and I just like didn't, it just came out. It was just a weird thing. You know, it was like the words just just happened. I didn't like look over and edit it or anything like that. And I was like, wow, this kind of. That's kind of weird that I wrote that. And then that developed until I had a huge love for like drum machines and stuff like that.

Hip-hop was coming up. And so I wanted to, you know, I got a drum machine. And then a friend got like one of those task cam 424 four tracks. And I was like, I used his sometimes. And then I got one and ended up getting a sampler and started learning about production. and listening to a lot of records and then got into like collecting vinyl and stuff like that.

So, you know, at first it was just such a mystery to me about how to make a record. Excuse me. Thank you. Were you still in West Texas while you were doing all that? No, no, no. I just stayed there for two years

and I went to a year at Texas Tech and then decided I was. was just going to actually had a really good class or writing class and just decided I was going to pursue music. But where are you doing, you know, to, you know, I think I had my task at him in my parents' house and, you know, it wasn't until I moved out to L.A. where I brought it, I still have it out here. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, I mean, I feel like I cut my teeth in a, in like an empty bedroom that my sister.

Yeah, I didn't start recording or anything like that in the house or I didn't have a place. So it was like, after I wrote the poetry, it wasn't like the music just came, but I just started writing. And then like, that was what led to that when I moved from Lubbock. I moved to Austin, Texas, where I started, like, you know, went to the studio and, like, cranked out a demo with the drum machine they had in a sample that I wanted to use and kind of did a couple demos like that and then started, like, there were producers down in Austin and worked with them a little bit. And then, you know, I had a place and it just put my gear up and just woodshed it. had you performed at all at that point or were you just recording? Just recording and I don't even think I had any interest in performing or any kind of like that just wasn't what I was thinking about at that time. I was just more into writing songs and actually just learning it, you know, maybe being a producer.

I didn't even think of like, oh, this is going to turn into it. anything. It was just kind of something that I thought was cool. And then when I started doing more of it, and then like it was good, then it was like kind of looked, I started to think about it. Who told you it was good besides, I mean, we all think that we're doing something okay, or we think it's all trash, one or the other. But somebody outside of you is like, hey, you should send this to, you know, I mean, obviously it's a leap to go from Austin to getting you know, to start signing with labels. And I know you had a few of these, you know,

random songs coming out on stuff before we got your debut album. But that's a big jump from recording with producers around Austin to record deals. Like it seems like that's an easy thing. Oh, no, that's not really how it happened. Like, really the Austin thing was like the really pre-pre-cursor. And actually, I did do a show with the old black. Cat in Austin where Matt Looney promoted it.

It was kind of funny, but I was part of a whole crew of people. But I was so in, like I was just learning the samplers and stuff and learning structure of songs and then like kind of doing that. And I bought. On your own or is someone actually showing you song structure? No, I mean, I learned it through like sequences and stuff. So it was kind of weird to like, when I started seeing. sampling records. It was like,

okay, I didn't even know what a sequence was or anything like that. So I had a friend that had the same and sonic keyboard that I bought

and I called him all the time. He said, read the manual, read the manual. I'm like, I just, you know,

I can't understand it. So, um, pretty much got into doing that and learning, you know, sampling old Willie Mitchell records and kind of like

learning song structure that way. and oh, I always wrote like the verse or whatever. And then like I started with the guitar. And then I came up and made this demo. And there was a guy at a record store that I bought a record about an artist that was from D.C. He was called BASED. I got the demo to him from his friend who worked at the radio station. And he was like, he really liked my demo.

and asked me to be part of his touring band to run the samplers and do some DJ and stuff. And it was kind of like a young guy that had gotten a lot of hype on a record that he made at Howard University and it just kind of like

came into something really cool. And then that step led to me kind of throwing, stop using all the samplers and just picking my guitar back up that I hadn't touched you know, since I was younger and

writing from that perspective and, you know. How old were you during all this? I mean, I guess I never really asked how old you were in the different stages, but by the time you're on tour, you know. When I was on tour with Jay said, it was like

I was 22, 23. So then that kind of closed down and I'd still, like one of my demos had caught like the eye of a producer, like this guy Herbie Lovebug, who did salt and pepper, and they wanted to do a production deal. So there was like always a little bit of something around, like, ever since I started making demos that, like, and the 930 club would ask me to perform live, and I didn't

have a band or anything, and I was like, well, and she started, Lisa White started, it's like, I'm not going to give you anymore if you don't take these shows. So it was like 24, 25, I started, started taking live shows and developing the non-sample version of what Citizen Cope was. And so that was more dealing with like heavy drums, but not, not loops or anything like that. And then like I was sending tapes to everyone. And as you mentioned earlier, pretty much any A&R person, any sending tapes that never would probably get there and then call in everybody and they didn't want to answer. And then I sent a tape. I was going to do a deal with just a small independent label.

And they're like, we can't do it. But I'll send it to Capitol Records to the VP's office directly. but it ended up in the non-solicited pile, which if you don't know is, you know, basically where the tapes go to die. It's the DMs of previous to Instagram. It's where it's the DMs no one replies to, for sure. Yeah, it's that pile of songs no one will listen to.

Yeah. And Marshall Altman got it. And at the same time, there was another company that was kind of snuffing around. And I was like 26, 27. And Marshall really liked it. And it was like, he ended up getting a demo deal. And then I did the demo deal for him. And somebody else came to see me from Polygram at the time.

And they offered me a deal. I didn't even have a manager. So you did all of it on your own, right? Well, I mean, I just guess I made the music and there wasn't really much to manage at that time except, you know, shop in a demo, and that's hard enough for anyone to do. I feel like people have ways that they try to describe

Citizen Cope. And obviously you've evolved, if you listen to the album that came out most recently, compared to where you started, you know. But what do you think it was at the time that, you know, it's like when people finally listen, whenever someone listened to you, they're like, ah, they gave it to somebody else. Like, that's the biggest compliment you could have. Right.

You know? What was it that you were doing that was different than everybody else, you know, in the 90s in early 2000s? I think it just comes from like trying to describe your existence and kind of get to who you are really

lyrically you're talking about lyrically and musically and just kind of like who are you as an artist and sometimes you know if you're not going to follow trends but also I was excited about what was going on at that time and still am of current music but it was more like I think I didn't have a great voice, I didn't play guitar great,

but I was into making cool records and I had a perspective, and I think people kind of identified with like, oh, this guy just is talking about his life. Yeah, it comes across so honest, which is kind of weird. It's like when you're, you know, when you're, you aren't going as, you know, under your name, it's Citizen Cope, which almost a way, like, I feel like when you, when you're behind a band name or an artist name, you can kind of be even more vulnerable lyrically, you know, it's like a, I don't know, there's like a, it's like a shield between. Yeah, it's a facade. It's like, what a, not a facade, but it's a, it's a, a, it's a, it's a, a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a. whatever, it's a stage persona or I just didn't, I was like, who's Clarence Greenwood when I sent these tapes out? I was like, I'm not, I'm not anybody usually like somebody goes solo because they, they were in a

band or something, or they were a big songwriter or a big producer or part of a musical entity. Where does Citizen Cope as a name come from? I was just thinking about, Cope is my nickname, short for Copeland. And I was, you know, it heard of Citizen Kane and I just, maybe CitizenCope. Yeah, I mean, it works. People remember it. So, I mean, that's the goal. So you finally, like, you Marshall digs through the pile. Here's your record.

Gets you a demo deal. You get seen by Polygram, which isn't that, that became dream. works, right? No, that was abandoned at the time. That was way before Dreamworks. Oh, I see.

Yeah. Like, you end up going label to label. What is the journey of an artist who has to go, like, why did you go from capital to polygram and then continue on?

Well, I think any artist, one thing we don't realize is that when you sign a deal, you have to actually get the record out, you have to have the distributor of the company, like order a bunch of copies. So at first I never realized why, you know, I did the record for capital and they didn't put it out

at least to try to, but there's an expense to that. They don't get reimbursed for their expense unless the distributor pays them in advance to do it for the marketing and promotion of it. And a lot of times they don't, you know, You know, so with Capital, it was just like I didn't make the record that I probably should have. What does that mean? I don't know.

It was just kind of a deep concept album, you know. And I looked at it like an underground pop record kind of dealing with the state of the world, the prison system, you know, suicide, the country. kind of like the shotgun it was called shotguns and it was the shotgun as kind of a symbol an American symbol of fear and so it was kind of like

the deepest kind of conceptual album that I think I ever tried to like put together but I think at the end of the day you know the pace and the tempo and I did some of the stuff I did the demos were really good in the studio

and then I was like oh I got a deal I can go to New York and put it on SSL Like some of those demos were just, I probably should have just recorded. But it's just basic early first kind of artist thing to happen sometimes. And, you know, the record was I didn't have like a record man. Like my biggest record man was Marshall. He was like a junior A&R person.

So, and he didn't even get assigned the record. So I think, I think any artist really needs kind of that person in the system that is, is his home team really fights for him. And that is, that's advice in, you know, however many episodes we've done, I feel like people

tend to think A&R people are stupid and a lot of times, you know, cliches are true, but a good A&R guys, somebody can really help that artist see their vision and actually get music out in the universe

and have it. Well, there's no, There's no record without the record man. Yeah. And the record man can be the producer or the A&R, the president of the label. I mean, there's no doubt that David Geffen had a lot to do with the success of some of his, most of his artists. And there's no doubt that Amad Erdogan did.

And there's no doubt that L.A. Reid did. And there's no doubt that Lenny Warwicker and Mo Austin did. They took a deep love for what they did. There's no doubt that, you know, the guys at Rockefeller did the same. The guys at Leorre and all these people are important to a lot of artists. It wasn't just like some guy running around that could make dreams happen. It was like it goes a lot deeper than that, like your first initial record deal. Do you find yourself, you know, you know, you'd know.

named, you know, probably the biggest icons in label history. Are you a student of the industry? Do you like the industry? Do you, like, I wouldn't think of Citizen Cope as, you know, knowing how you've been artistically unique your whole career. I wouldn't think that you or somebody who necessarily was so tapped into all these, you know, how the business works. How do, is this something you're passionate about or is it something just from having been around that you kind of pick up on? I mean, where does this come from? This is all like really savvy information.

No, I mean, I'm not, I'm passionate about how great records are made. And a lot of times those great records are, are part of a, of, a, of, you know, whole team. So it's like I guess that like it makes me excited about what Barry Gordy did in Motown. It makes me excited about what, you know, in that process and just not even that, the guys that played on the records and the guys that produced the records and the women that were involved in that and the artists and everything. So I think it's like kind of a, an interesting scope. But I've kind of had to be on that industry side because I had to go. three or four different companies before

it's been it was just all messed up let's jump to like to DreamWorks which is really sort of the first time I think you know in mass that people become familiar with who you are DreamWorks in

2000 is you know maybe the hottest label in the business what you know I guess tell me about that era of being signed to DreamWorks and, you know, I was like,

I got drive from Capitol and I called a bunch of people and I wasn't really getting any any love from anybody and, and I called up I was a big Randy Newman fan so I read his stuff and it said, Lenny Walker

and I knew he was over DreamWorks or whatever and moved from Warner Brothers and worked with a lot of iconic artists and that's one thing I felt like I didn't have my personal. person and I cold called him and Gail Pearson who was his assistant um after talking to her I you know she walked into Lenny Walker's office and said letty I've never done this I'll never do it again but something tells me you have to talk to this guy and and he's an artist and and I talked to him

and and he just he was like all right well I'll demonstrate him or something. He listened to the music and he's like, I'll do another demo situation. Then I did the demo and made that song, if there's love with Neil Poe down in Atlanta, who worked with Outcast and stuff, and I loved the way the record sounded, and I felt like I got a big song, so I went down there and cut it at Usher's house. I think Lenny gave me like $5,000 and, you know, went down there and cut the record and sent it back and they didn't

they were like you know we just don't have anyone here that's I like it but there's no one here that's going to push it and John Lashay who I met through Bob Wai at one of the stations see I pushed like I went to radio stations like I was giving people

I met you know tapes I was calling people like I was very active in trying to pushed the music. So I was like, Bob Wah, introduced me to this guy, John Lusay, who shopped a demo,

and next thing you know, I had like, for the stuff the DreamWorks paid for, I had offers from a whole bunch of companies. And then, um, essentially, you know,

Leor and Jimmy Ivan got in and, uh, stupidly, I signed with DreamWorks. You know, but, man we it wasn't stupid

like what are you going to do man at that time that made a lot of sense I know it did make a lot of sense I actually it wasn't stupid I knew that Lenny was the type of guy that I could call up and he would answer and I write a song for him and I feel really blessed for that

experience I think that like that staff is like an invaluable to be able to say hey you know I called them in it was off cycle when I sang him sideways and he said go record it and

you know it was I think it got a couple people in a company pissed because I just already made my record and it was off like

record cycling whatever there wasn't a budget open whatever it was kind of like got political but I want to cut the song and uh so you recorded sideways

is that you recorded it before let the drummer kick came out no Yeah, well, the first record came out. And then off... It had come up in the off cycle. I got it.

I recorded... No, actually, to tell you the truth, I brought that song into them. And they were like, oh, it's pretty cool. And I was like, no, this is a big song. So you guys already got drummer. You got, if there's love, you got, you got like three songs on there that are going to do well.

So I was like, let me hold this back. and and I and then they also and then the next red I brought son's going to rise in for the next and sideways

for the next record I didn't get the vibe from them and I just and Santana loved sideways and he put it on charm and his record

after Supernatural and kind of embraced it and I met all the errors to people and I was like oh this is a real record company like they're trying to win

you know And that's just one thing I feel that DreamWorks wasn't really They didn't have a marketing Or promotion strategy It was just like a lot of really good record people Or a couple good record people And they didn't have

They weren't really playing ball They had money but they didn't know They didn't know It was a really weird time in the business too You know that that era is right when NAPSERS starts out, you know, there's all this poaching music, the industry is making a lot of money still, because it's still, you know, some of these big pop artists are selling 20 million albums worldwide. But so there was like money coming in, but there was this hint of like though the business is

going to go, you know, for sideways. But it's going to go and do some shit that's complicated. And so it's, you know, labels were turning over really quickly over the next, from like 2000 to basically 2010. It's just labels are folding, getting bought up. People are ending up here. They're any up there. Artists are ending up on all these different labels. And if you hear about the ones that were really successful,

but underneath there was just, it was kind of crazy. I don't think the business was like that in the 60s. You know, everyone knew exactly where they were. and those ANR people stayed there for like 15, 20 years, which is the 2000s was like, who knew where... Yeah, I mean, it just got corporate so that everything was about market share. So, I mean, there was tons of bands getting, like, I think DreamWorks had like probably signed 80 bands.

I don't think any of them really. There's probably like a handful of them. It's still... Yeah, it's crazy. And talking about the music a little bit, Let the drummer kick is on, you know, it's like on, I have a playlist of songs that are just like the cool songs that I, you know, over my lifetime. These songs are the cool songs. You know, when that song comes out, it really was a, it feels like it was, you know, it moved the needle a lot for you.

It was, you had to have heard it out in public. It had to be the first time where you heard actual, you know, I mean, before Santana comes in your life, you actually have like a solo record that seems to have done pretty well. I mean, it's... That record's stiffed. Well, how, why do we all know it then? That song came to life after I left Dreamworks. But I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm blessed about that song. I got to give Jeremy some props

and Michael Goldstone. I had done all the music for it and I had the chorus for it. I didn't have the verses for it. And he was like, I really think you should finish this record. And it was like, back to that record man thing.

It was one of those things that at all the times that he did, like, oh, I don't like this mix, I don't like this. And all he did actually kind of convince me or show enough interest in the song to kind of like push me along to finish it and and you know I'm really grateful for that so I think that like really that kind of record just kind of was off the shelf of

15,000 and then it became a weird thing where people were buying the CD for $100 and then like stuff started getting licensed so it was in like accepted and all this other stuff and slowly but it was never on the radio, which was weird and it never charted. But also thing like a license, like so you think you could dance and just weird things. Like weird, like really blessings would come out of that song in that record that made the record come out and live. Like, when it looked like it was a mess. It is a weird thing. Like when you think of, there are so many great songs that we,

if you didn't look at the chart, you would assume that they were just out of this world. Like, you know, I mean, it's like, it's like dream on for Aerosmith or something like that, which is, you know, that was like maybe a top 20 record. Or Bruce Springsteen never had a number one song, you know, except for the cover, the Man for Man's cover. You know, like, you think of like all these great artists where the anecdotes is that like you assume that. they had a lot of hits because you know the songs. But just because you know the songs doesn't mean that they were necessarily like traditional hits. But over time, if you're getting licenses on so you think you can dance, how many songs that were released in 2000 of an artist that wasn't on the label two years later,

or sorry, 2002, and the artist wasn't even on the label two years later? Like, how many of those songs stick around? You know? Yeah. I feel really fortunate for it. It's like looking back and being like, wow, that, oh, that made it. You know, like that, it kind of made it along the way. And it's weird.

I just got a license request for Sideways for a movie. I was just like, you know, the song just keeps going. Yeah, I think even now, there are some songs that break on social media that are, you know, that are, have been around for a long time. It's just the difference of when you broke, when you've, came out as an artist versus now is that there were aisles and stores. And that's really hard for an artist like you who has such an eclectic sound who embraced so many different genres and was embraced by so many different genres.

Now that would be a plus. Then it was really hard when you'd walk into like Virgin and they'd put you in like a rock section. You're like, what? like there's a guitar on it but like come on I mean my album came out my first album came out in 2004 and we opened for Jurassic 5 a bit but I remember buying the record

in the rock pop section at Virgin and iTunes came out and I want to say 2004 or 5 and they put us under reggae I was like that was when I realized oh, that's, it is harder sometimes if you sound unique. Yeah, I think anytime you have kind of like you touch, you pull from different genres, like,

I think it's like, it's part of the whole thing because it's all one music. So it's just, it's sometimes you go there and people want to put everything in a category. So it's kind of easy to categorize stuff. Do you feel like now when you've, you know, you just released, not to skip over, you know, a bunch of albums, but you just released a new album.

Do you feel like it's freeing to just be, I mean, now people look up Citizen Co. I mean, there are genres, but I feel like that's got to feel freeing to now be releasing music in the last couple years in an era where no one's pigeonholing, holding, holding. Yeah, I mean, I think there's still that because there's playlisting. So I think playlists can be challenging, especially for somebody like me,

because then it goes into kind of like songwriter kind of stuff where it's a little different. But I think I've just been fortunate to have like a lot of really people find the music and they want to come see me play. And then also when I put out, like I just put out the vinyl, pulling Niagara Falls and people. bought it directly and I made these really cool posters. The artist did like this gelatin thing on them. And it's like, I think it's kind of like a lot of things

have become collectible and it's an interesting thing. The music just kind of going on no matter what. Why was there the break between releasing music from basically 2012 to 2019? Like that's the longest time from when you first start writing where you actually took this time, at least from releasing music. What was going through your life during that time?

Man, I got into the touring heavy thing. And then kind of getting into that and then realizing, wow, like that's, it took too much time from me. And then it was kind of always, I got in this to write and produce and I really didn't get in this to be a performer because I wasn't like, you know,

you hear about people like, oh, it's my dream ever since I was a kid to be on stage. And when I got on stage for the first time, I just felt so like amazing. And like, you know, I hated that. Like I was, you know, I had a stage fright for years. And I guess I had to get over that and face that what that was about.

Did you get over it? Yeah, I mean, I'm still not great with it, but I, yeah, it was, it was debilitating at first. I mean, it was, it was, it was something that, um, I definitely needed to address and like to face. And so I kind of got deal with that. You know, I still get firefighters or still feel away, but it's getting stronger on my side now. Um, and what was the tactic you used to help get through that? because that's because you know I think most performers

that aren't crazy fear have this this strange fear attached to being on stage and you know everyone has to cope with it in certain ways you know how do you cope with it

well I mean I think I started drinking a lot on the road but I think what got me over it was just doing it a lot and then also kind of being kind of realizing you know getting to the point what was I fearing and it was really that when I had people there going to see me you know it was like something that it was just a block you know it wasn't you know I wasn't letting people in

and I started to let people in a little bit um I know we talked about record people. One of the things you did, one of your albums, at least one, came out on your own record label. Yeah. Your experience having done that, why did you decide to do that? And, I mean, did all of the albums after Rainwater come out? Are they all out on Rainwater?

Yeah, all of them are on Rainwater. So now you run a record company, do you feel like you are a good record man? I, for myself, I am in this sense, but not, I'm probably, I'm probably not, I can't be a record man for myself. You know, so that's kind of difficult to be a record man for myself. But I do see that what it takes to make a record, you know, I do admire that quality. party and people, you know, there's just been, I think it's just, it's, it's something that goes along. So I don't really consider myself a record, man, because I don't work for, you know, somebody or I haven't started a big company. So do you, and have you signed other artists?

No, I put some stuff out, uh, Alice Smith's record. She came out, uh, on Rainwater. Yeah. And she, she, and so there's been a couple artists. I mean, I'm looking to expand that right now, but I want to have to get a little bit of funding for it. But I still, I still am in love with just great recordings, you know. I think they're, you know. It's so weird.

When you're young and you're good at something musically, the general response from people, not just in the business, but if you're a good singer and you're younger, people are like, oh, you should sing on stage. And if you're good at making music, you should go on stage. But so many good musicians are best in a studio. Still, you ended up doing all that touring.

I thought that's fascinating that you spent that seven-year block, just touring having been basically, you know, turning into an aspiring producer, songwriter. Yeah. I mean, it was kind of like either or. It was like either go on the road or you, because that's when a lot of the royalties dried up or else.

And I kind of had an idea that the songs would take it. But the thing about the road is it doesn't have any, it's not an asset. And it's like not something that like if a management company can have a management company and then sell it to or Capshaw's management company or agency can sell to CAA and that's all because they have artists

but if I go on the road I can't sell citizen code you know it's basically I spend a million dollars on a tour a million dollars doesn't ever come back except for the fact that I go I can go out and make it again

so it's not really essentially an asset it's like you know something happens to me stuff. Yeah, it's so interesting because the music industry always talks about how all the money's in touring. Well, that became a big, that became just a big thing and everyone got in the middle

of it and you know, that's why this last year is my last tour for a while because it just got to a point where it just got so corporate. And the only asset we could have was our fans, really. And now there's like all these middlemen in between that. They hold

their, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, stuff. And it's just being, and then those guys get beat up or parking and, and, and, and, and overpriced drinks and then they don't give them their money back. And then it's like, makes us look bad. And then it's like crazy charges on this and that. And, and then they email them to death for shows that they don't want to do and they unsubscribe. So we lost the customer, you know?

So it's like, you know, and that's really our biggest asset. I've always wanted to just have a really great performance and be live. And I got to, you know, I'm feeling really good about playing right now. Like, I'm really glad that I put that time into becoming a performer. And, and realize that this is just all about personal growth, man. And it's not about like what I thought it was. You know, so I think the universe kind of points you in the direction of what you got to learn. And then you hopefully learn it.

And if you don't, it takes you seven years on the road. Do you have a personal life? Yeah, I've got a family. What's that like? It's beautiful. My daughter just turned 11. Congratulations. Yeah.

and her mother is a singer and we like to travel, eat good food and kick back. When you tour, do you guys all tour together now? She tours early on Lulu would tour. My daughter would tour with me a lot. And probably now with Alice's thing kind of getting bigger that maybe we'll be doing shows together. that maybe we'll be doing shows together and all of us will be on the road which I would really like.

Yeah, that's the dream scenario. Yeah. What's next for you having, you know, you've released a couple albums in the last couple, you know, a few years and, you know, obviously quarantine, a bunch of things have happened. Now it's like, what's next for you,

musically? I'm going to try to record a live record before I, the end of the year, before I stopped touring in 2000 for a while. And then I've got a bunch of songs that I'm working on. And I got, for the first time we have an independent film that's sent me the actual film. I've got a lot of licenses before, but I've never had a chance to write specifically for a movie. And I'm doing that right now, which is really cool. Yeah, it feels like, because your music feels cinematic.

maybe in a weird way how honest it is it feels cinematic if that makes sense and that's exciting what's the movie or can you not say

well it's I haven't officially been hired but I've and so I just basically have been sending a bunch of music out and

and you know I'm not you know you got to have thick skin when you send in movies music to movies because

most of the stuff they don't really respond to, but then there's something that they, that works. And it's like, so officially, uh, the movie is still not been shot. But it's actually got some big people in it, which is cool. It's not like, and the movie's really good. Well, let's go, um, I want to do the next segment, which is a five for five. I'm going to list five things and, you know, um, um, um,

Let's start with your mother. Wait, five. Oh, I'm going to list five things. Just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Word, a phrase, something. But I'm starting with your mom because you were saying that that's, you know, she's from Memphis and that's where a lot of the music was that you were into. So let's start with that.

First thing in my mind. Beautiful. Marshall Altman. Capital Records. How about Santana? A brother Daniel. What is that? I had a brother Daniel or a stepbrother

and I gave him a Santana record when I was a kid. And that it kind of turned into a weird thing that I ended up being on Santana's album. but I think he was like the connector. How crazy is that? He was a Santana fan. I feel like when you're younger, when, you know, all music is sort of

mystical and so to end up on a Santana record like that must have been incredible. Yeah, there were definitely forces working. So I don't know. Let's go with,

let's go with your daughter. Oh, blessing. And your wife? Superpower. Anybody who has a child and I'm new in that game looks at there, can see that pretty clearly. Well, dude, man, thank you for doing this. I don't know if you're aware of how many,

I guess I can ask you, are you aware of how many people view you as an influence and how many people quote you as still, you know, I feel like your name comes up constantly. Yeah, I mean, I think the music is into it. It was kind of weird because I think it taught people that when I came out that they didn't have to follow a genre and kind of could take whatever they wanted from whatever.

And I think that became something that people heard and people had actual just experiences with the music and that's what's kind of cool about not ever being on the charts is that people had their own experience and it wasn't like because of a huge marketing campaign and I can look in when somebody says, I like your music, I know it's real. It's not because they saw me on a television show

or because they heard the record pounded down with the million-dollar radio campaign. you know it's it's like that music touched me and and and I feel really blessed what would you tell the kid that recorded let the drummer kick you know the first major label like it's after cap but it's like a song where it's like things that were seemingly like could happen and to know where you ended up what would you tell that kid back in 2002 I think it would be to kind of appreciate the journey and to appreciate the people that are,

to kind of learn just to realize that you're already at your destination. You know, you're chasing something that you already have, within you. I love that. Well, thanks for doing this. I've called you one of my influences for a long time, so it's cool to have you on this. Congratulations on all the success, man. It's beautiful. Like, your discography's crazy, right? Thanks, man. I mean, look, if you listen to music that you like, then you end up writing music you like, and, you know, we're all in the same, we're all the same family, you know what I mean? So, you know, when Marshall hit me up, up and mentioned you.

It was like, oh my God. Yeah, absolutely. Let's do this. That's so fun. So shout out to Marshall. That guy's... Yeah, I love him, man. Marshall Holtman.

Cool, man. Yeah, Ross. Congratulations again. It's just like been cool to be on your show. I appreciate it, man. And let me know. We should link some time. Absolutely.

Cool. Thanks, man. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.