And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 162:Christina Perri

Episode Date: September 19, 2022

Today’s guest is a multi-platinum singer-songwriter who has earned critical applause and an increasingly fervent fan following since the arrival of her extraordinary, platinum-certified, 2011 debut, lovestrong, which featured the 5x-platinum certified smash, “Jar of Hearts” and gold-certified “arms.” She followed lovestrong. with the worldwide hit single, “A Thousand Years,” exclusively featured on THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN – PART 1 & 2– ORIGINAL MOTION PICTURE SOUNDTRACKS. The RIAA diamond certified track was a multi-format radio favorite, and accompanied by an equally popular companion video, now boasting over 1.3 billion individual views via YouTube alone. HEAD OR HEART, her acclaimed gold-certified, second album, arrived in 2014, highlighted by the RIAA 2X platinum certified single, “Human.” Our guest kicked off 2019 with songs for carmella: sing-a-longs and lullabies, a collection of songs the acclaimed singer-songwriter sang to her daughter everyday, released on Carmella’s first birthday. She released the poignant single “Tiny Victories,” a track she wrote for the HBO documentary FOSTER, which made its premiere in Spring 2019. Most recently, she released songs for rosie in honor of her daughter on what would have been her first birthday and most recently, her latest studio album, a lighter shade of blue, released this summer. And The Writer Is… Christina Perri!Watercolor by: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's Diamond Platinum songstress rose to prominence with her smashing hit jar of hearts, which blew up not from

radio, not from streaming, not from social media, but from choreography. The dance was one of the most iconic moments of The Legendary Show, so you think you can dance. Only a year after taking the World by Storm, she did it again with an even bigger record and an even bigger replacement. Her song A Thousand Years to find the sound of the Twilight trilogy and topped all the charts and sold a bazillion records.

All the way from here, this artist writes from the bottom of her heart and wears her heart on both sleeves. And the writer is Christina Perry. What's up? Dude, that was the best intro I've ever had in my whole

life. Oh, I love that. I mean, you've done a lot of interviews, so I'll that as a compliment. For real, man. Nobody does such like a, you know, like a cute one. I feel like I need to like bring that around with me wherever I go and be like, I'm sorry, this actually is going to play before we begin. Well, here's the thing. Like, and, you know, not to talk about the podcast, but it's like, it's really an opportunity to, like, I'm, I love, I love music and I love songwriting. And to meet songwriters, I'm still a kid. You know those experiences. You know those that you had when you were first starting

and, you know, those first times where you walked into that record label or that recording studio or you meet that writer and they said, hey, that guy wrote blank or that woman wrote that song and you're like, oh my God, I mean, how cool is

that? I still feel that way and I still get like, oh man, that person wrote, it's still so fun and so it's like, I guess this is like, it's a cool journey to go and and actually give respect to these other people that are geniuses. You wrote songs that are evergreens.

You didn't just write songs that, I mean, there are a lot of songwriters. There are a lot of artists. There aren't a lot of people who have songs that go diamond. I bet we can actually look up how many songwriters it is, and it's infinitimally small. Is that a word? Might be. I mean, I love it.

I love it. I feel like, you know, I'm kind of just as geeky about, about writers too. I mean, people, you know, people ask me all the time, like, my favorite part about this or, like, how I even got into this. And, like, it's actually quite interesting. And I'm sure you hear all the versions because I can't imagine, you know, like, how many there are and how we all come to be who we are. But I feel like, like, I was never the girl, like, sitting in my bedroom with a hairbrush, like, singing in the mirror, like, I'm going to be a start. Like I was literally like, oh, I'm going to write songs for other people because I'm too fucking shy. Like I just like I really didn't, I really wasn't a performer.

Like I, as far back as I go, like my big brother was a performer. Like he was the star of the family. When I got a record deal, everyone my family was like, wait, which Perry? Because I was like so introverted. Like people don't know that really. I mean, especially when you have to like perform, you know, and you kind of turn it on. But like my true self is like I always thought I'd be a writer because that's what I've done since I've been 14. But I never thought I'd like do the performer part.

And so when I meet writers, I'm the same way. Like I think it's cooler to meet a writer than a performer. I think like I met my favorite author of a book and I lost my shit. Like I literally was like, it was like meeting Paul McCartney. You know? And like so I still remain in that, you know, writer fandom. I think that's the craft. Like that's the thing I'm most proud of.

Like, sure, is it cool that I sang for the president in 2014? Or is it cool that like I got to sing a thing at Disneyland? Yeah, that's super cool. But my favorite part is the acknowledgement for being a writer, is the stories about, you know, what the song meant to someone. Like, it's really just about the craft. Like, it always comes back to that for me. That's my favorite thing.

And my favorite thing to talk about. And honestly, like, when you're promoting stuff, People want to know your favorite color. And I'm just like, ask me about how I wrote it. Ask me about how bad it hurt. You know, ask me about how it came together and how many sessions it took or, you know, like, whatever. Like, I just geek out when I get to talk about that. So I was, like, so pumped to get to talk to you.

Do you think you're an introvert because you have, because you had an older sibling that was a performer? Because I feel like, I feel like siblings kind of have that ying and yang thing. And it probably, you know. Well, also because he's like such a star, like even when like, I mean, he wouldn't say this about himself. But like everyone knows like when he walks in the room, he's just like dazzling. And like I feel like when I came around, he's two and a half years older than me. And when I was born, like, I didn't even talk for many years because he was like, oh, my sister Christina says, you know, and like he spoke for me.

And now that I'm a mom and I have a daughter, I like, you know, I talk to my mom all the time about that. And she's like, oh, yeah. because my daughter started talking at like 11 months. She came, she walked in her first birthday and was like, hey, everyone, I'm here. And like, I wasn't like that. My mom's like, no, you actually didn't talk for a very long time. And I was like, well, I think it's next fall. Like, I don't think like, like, I think I had things to say, but he just said them for me.

So I wonder because I'm like a big nerdy Enneagram fan. And like, I just feel like there's so much about my childhood. I just love discovering. And like, I do believe, especially now as a parent, that like, you know, I believe in the nature nurture thing. I'm watching my kid. Like she came out pretty badass. She's a Capricorn.

She was like, you know, I'm finished breastfeeding. Like, I'm good. She's like, I sleep by myself. It's fine. I'm like, do I me sing any song? She's like, no, it's cool. Like, that's like, that's who she came out as. But then it's like, how do I support her?

And so so far she's like, you know, I'm learning through teaching her how to be a human that like, wow, I kind of showed up this way, you know. And then and then the participation. kind of molded me, but I kind of maybe showed up as like a little introvert. And then I just like stayed in my little turtle shell. And then the universe was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're coming out, you know? Like, it really felt like that. Piano's a good instrument for introverts because it's louder than most people can sing versus a guitar or some other instruments. Did your brother also play instruments or was piano something that...

Yeah, best guitar player I ever met. So did you play piano because you were like, well, that instrument's missing in my household? Yeah, I play piano. Also, because my mom kind of encouraged me to take lessons. I feel like I was like that, you know, eight-year-old kid. And my mom's like, what do I do with you? And I was like, like, watching my brother just be this virtuoso. And so obviously I didn't want to do his instrument.

And then I think someone gave us a piano. We couldn't like afford a piano. And I think like my mom, my mom did her hairdresser just like one of their old. customers gave us a piano. I started lessons. And the truth is I kind of hated it. I was like, I mean, now as a songwriter, I know I was a songwriter when I was eight,

and I kept wanting to change all the songs and make them more dramatic, which is so funny because like I'm so like into dramatic ballads. And I was like, you know, doing these scales, but wanting to be like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Like, you know, and she's like, uh-uh. But she was like 90, my teacher. I remember she's spelled like cats. But anyway, so I did say,

stick with it. That's the truth. Like I kind of wish I did and I feel like everyone says, like my mom said, you're going to wish you stick with it. And I definitely do. But I also think there's something cool about the instrument like, because then I taught myself guitar when my brother moved away. He got a record deal at 16. He was like out of the house. And then without his looming star vibes in the house, I just like sat there. Actually, I was obsessive blind melon and like, I learned all these Blind Melon songs. And he came home for Thanksgiving. And I was like, look what I can do.

And he was like, what? You know, he was so nice. I mean, he wasn't, you know, he didn't try to overshadow me in any way. He just, like, was amazing. So, wait, how did he, who, he got a record deal while he was in high school? Yeah, from Clive Davis. So you're, let's go give like some context to where we are. We're in, are we in Pennsylvania at this time?

Or are we in L.A.? We're in Philly. We're in Philly. So, you know, Philly's close to New York, much closer to New Jersey, but it's, you know, it's right there. Sure. But somebody along the way is like, oh, these, the Perry kids are really talented. Yeah. In Philly.

And look, I mean, how many kids grow up in Philadelphia where their teacher or their parents are like, oh, my kids are so talented? and they're not that talented. They're really talented for there. I don't want to say they're not that talented. They're just not necessarily like, you know. Yeah. Well, let me go back a little for him. I mean, he was playing.

There was actually a pretty cool scene in Philly in like 2001. This is around the time. Like, if I was in high school in 2000, so this is 2000, 2001. My brother had a band called Silver Tide, and they would play, and they were only in high school, and they were playing bars on Saturday.

South Street. And then so was a bunch of other bands, like War on Drugs. Like, that's where they started. They were all best friends. Like, it was kind of like that. I mean, they weren't called War on Drugs. They were all different bands like Peppers, Ghost and Silver Tide and Pondchap Roses. They were all just like those guys. And they played South Street every week. And there was just a buzz about them. And I guess it went to New York and Clyde Davis came to Philadelphia to see them because they just would crush it every night. My brother would walk out in the middle of South Street and play guitar, you know, like shirtless behind his head, kind of like very throwbacky, you know, shredding. And he'd walk down South Street and like, I mean, it was just like a moment,

you know? And so they got signed and they toured with, I don't know, like Van Halen and Motley crew and all these like big huge kind of legend bands. And then they were only 17 and they fucking lost all their money. My brother bought 45 guitars. The singer shaved his head and took a Greyhound Buzz home and hated being in a box. They quit the band. My brother's like, ah, he just wanted it to succeed and then they just kind of all fell apart. Did you want to be in a band watching that? And did you glorify

that experience? Like, if I hear that, you know, you watch shows about Motley Crew and you glorify it, but that, the worst place you could have been in your life is in Motley crew. Those people are not happy people. No. And barely survived if they did. And so when you're that close and you're a younger sibling who's now starting to aspire to write songs and stuff,

are you thinking like, oh, I want to be in a band too watching that band fall apart? Or are you thinking, no, I'm going to do, I got my own thing going. Yeah, I was like, oh, that's such a good question. I worked for them. I sold their merch. I had a fake ID. I was 15. And they were like,

just bring your little sister. And my mom's like, okay, because you're with Nikki. Like, I was like, allow, I was on tour with Molly Crew

and Alice Cooper and Van Halen. And I remember like, it's such a lifetime ago now. Oh my gosh, I'm 35. So this was, I was 15. And no,

I didn't want to be a rock star. I didn't want to be them. And then I had, because I also was like, I listened to the Beatles and Jason Maraz. I also was not like into, you know, it didn't do it for me. You know, I was like writing little songs about how I wanted to marry Jason Maras. I wasn't, I didn't want to marry Eddie Van Halen, you know?

I like, so I feel like I just like was having fun. I was also like doing so many drugs and drinking. I mean, I'm sober now 10 years. Like I did it all then, you know? Like I'm good. Like I really don't miss it at all. But I, so I had fun and I was crazy. But I eventually was like, oh, I really.

need to like not work for my big brother like so i went to college when i when i graduated high school barely graduating because i was always like on trips i remember like planning out all my days off like in philadelphia i went to catholic school like you were allowed to have 29 days without having to repeat the grade and i just planned them as vacation days or tour days or you know and i was just like a character and um and so i've graduated somehow and i got a full scholarship to the university of the arts in philadelphia and i was like on tour with my brother in london when I got the call and my mom and dad were like, you're going.

Like, you have to do your own thing. And so I'm glad that happened. I went to college and I really, that's when I really was like honing my own craft. Because I really could have just kept getting swept up in that, but I will say I didn't play shows. Like people, like when I got signed in 2010,

I remember the, like, I went around to all the record labels. I was playing little showcases. Like, I was like throwing up three times before and two times after. because I didn't have that muscle. Like I didn't play coffee houses. I tried one time. It was like a comedy show.

I messed up and like I'm singing jar of arts and it's like all dudes who are comedians. It was like mad, a good vibe. And so I didn't perform. Like people really, like I played for maybe my best friends. And they were like, wow, you're actually very good. And I'm like, oh, thanks. But I didn't show anybody.

And I will say what kind of bridges everything is like I put covers up on YouTube. I think that, and I'm not a YouTube person. Like I remember I had no views. Like nobody was watching me. I was not a, you know, a online viral. Yeah, I wasn't viral. Yeah, yeah.

I had one friend that watched my videos. And but I, at least like started putting it out there. And then I existed on the internet so that when someone heard something I did, like there were a couple other songs. And they were like, oh, cool, let's meet with this girl. It's kind of all happened really perfectly. You said a couple times, like, you know, and my mom said, you know, you can go with Nikki and my mom said this. Are your parents married?

Are they, you know, are your, is your dad involved in the equation at all? Yeah, but he's from Italy and like he's way older. Like he's right now, he's almost 80. So when I was 15, you know, he was kind of old. And it's funny that I don't mean to only say my mom. He was involved in the decision making, but he was also like, whatever you want to do, you know what I mean? Like he really, both my parents, I mean, they're just innocent, in a sense.

Like they really, they're good humans. I love them so much. But they really had no idea also like what that whole world was, you know? Like it was tough in a sense for my brother and I to make it out alive out of that. You know, we were just like, chilling. I mean, I have a child now. Like, she's four, but I'm just like. But can you imagine in 11 years that she's like, I'm going to go on tour?

You're going to be like, hell, you are not leaving, you're not leaving this basement. No, there was like a naked pass. Like, if you wanted to go in Tommy Lee's naked room, you had to have this naked pass. Like, I was 15. My brother's like, oh, you know, don't look at that. So anyway, I love my parents, but they're cute. Like, I almost feel like I'm like parenting them now. You know, they're just like, I don't know.

a little bit in the clouds when it comes to that stuff. Can we anecdotally talk about Jason Maras? Sure. Oh my God. He's my number one forever. My guess is that you guys end up crossing in your popularity. Like you guys end up probably doing radio shows together. Yeah. So, you know, when that's your number one, for sure you guys know each other now.

Yeah. We toured together. We did a song together. Wait, wait, I didn't even say we, the person that emailed me the very first time, my first manager, he found me on the internet through this, I don't know, magical chain of events. And he managed Jason Marads. And that was in his little Facebook message to me. He was like, hey, my name's Tom. I'm a music manager.

I manage a guy named Jason Maraz. I was like, like I manifested that, you know? Like I wrote a letter to Jason when I was 17. I'm so glad I didn't send it, although he wouldn't care. But I like wrote a letter to him like, I can't wait to me on tour with you. singing like you know we're going to know each other like I don't know where that letter is now but I was so not cool either like I don't pretend I'm cool like even when I did the twilight stuff like I've had the book covers framed on my walls like I was like crying at the theater like I do not play it

cool so when I met Jason I like cried a little and then then we like truly became friends but I think he always kind of knew like I'm like super fan like I know like I know like I know like Like every word, every breath he takes on every song. And I... You're like watching it. It's like when you're feeding your child and you open your mouth and she opens their mouth. It's like he's about to breathe and you're like,

you're like, okay. Yeah, I know every live version of every song. I had like the bootleg stuff on line wire. That guy is so underrated in a sense that if you haven't seen him perform live, that guy's intonation and accuracy when he's doing things like that. runs. He clearly comes from, you know, a very, like an old school kind of training. And, but maybe the most important thing of Jason Maraz now is that he's an excellent avocado farmer. And coffee. Oh, yeah, and coffee. People don't realize. Yeah, he literally throws

avocados to people in the audience. Like, that's his, like, that's his thing. Yeah, people don't recognize that he supplies avocados and guacamole. Sorry, my mother is calling me. I don't know if that comes across, but anyway. That happens. He literally supplies avocados and guacamole for, oh, my God, mom. Are you kidding me? Does that hate your mom?

That's so cute. Does that ring? Can you hear that? I can hear it. I can hear it. This is what happens. You know, I don't have a voicemail set up on my phone. and the reason why is because if I do, then my mom leaves me messages.

No one else does. Everyone else texts. They say like, oh, they don't respond, therefore. You can text her. Tell her you're doing a thing. It's like it even is, it's even on silent. Anyway, but yeah, he actually supplies avocados and guacamole for what is it? Chipotle.

Chipotle. Yeah. He's like a legit avocado. farmer. Anyway, we can talk about Jason Maras for days and... I can't, I can. But, okay, so let's go to, you know, there's the, I'm writing songs, I have three

people who've seen a video on YouTube. I get a random email from a manager. It's still a big jump from, you know, I'm going to play this song live on YouTube to recording it. Tell, how did Jar of Hearts how is it created

and then the journey from that you know to like so you think you can dance sure it's pretty quick in the timeline it's like about six months so I wrote well first of all I moved to L.A I moved to L.A. I moved to L.A. on my 21st birthday my brother was out here he was like Chris come let's do this like you graduated college

no I left I went three years. And then I was like, I was doing documentary film. It was fine. What's funny now is they call my alumni. You were doing what? You were doing documentary film. Yeah.

Like you wanted to be a director? You know, maybe. I loved editing. I really loved film editing. And I made short films, yeah. Are you, did you do that throughout your career? Did you document your own, eyes.

I did in the beginning, actually. I made little kind of like vlogs, you know, and I edited them. And then I kind of stopped, but I still love doing that. Like, I love any kind of production. I roll all my music videos. I worked with the, because I was like a producer for a little bit in L.A. I kind of have a film background. That's really interesting.

I just have an editor's brain, too. I like song editing too. Like I learned pro tools in college. Like I liked it, but it wasn't, I had no idea where I was going to go from there. So when my brother, who was my best friend, I mean, he was like, hey, come to L.A. I was like, okay. And so I moved on my 21st birthday. And funny enough, he went on tour with, at the time, he was playing with Perry Farrell and whatever his band was.

Jane's Addiction? No, it was the other one with his wife. Porno's for Pyros? Oh, no, it was the one after that. Satellite party. Right, yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah.

Sick. So anyway, he wasn't even here. And then I had to get a job and make friends. And anyway, long story long, I'm here. I'm waitressing. I'm writing music. You know, that's sort of like what I was doing. Where are you waitressing?

I was waitressing at a place called Chocolat, which now is, I think it's nothing right now. It used to be, it's across from the improv on Melrose. It was like a really fancy French restaurant. And I was waitressing there. and just writing a ton of songs. By yourself? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't do a writing session until I had a record deal.

My first writing session ever was 2010. So I just wrote songs by myself and then I put them on YouTube. Did you ever wait on someone where you were like this? I need to let them know that I'm a musician. Was there ever like, oh my God, that's, you know, I'm way, that's Jimmy Iveen or something like that. No. No.

especially because I didn't think I was the artist. You know what I mean? Oh, right. I was not like, hey, look at me. I was never, ever like that. I was just like, didla-l-l-l-oo going home and doing my thing. And then I was recording these songs so that I had recordings on my little, like, you know, camera. I didn't have like an audio setup.

And so I'd record them on YouTube so they existed for me, basically, or like, I guess it was my catalog, you know. But no, I never was like, I didn't self-promote. it made me uncomfortable. I was just like, you know, I'm just a waitress, which is fine. I mean,

I definitely met cool people, but like it wasn't, it wasn't about me. I never really, I was like so not L.A. Like, everyone who was waitressing was trying to get discovered

and I was just like, I was trying to pay my bills. But who are you, when you were writing these songs, you know, when you're thinking I'm going to, some, I'm writing these songs

and someone's going to cut them. Mm-hmm. Like, who did, in your mind was going to cut these songs? You had jar of hearts. Who was going to cut jar of hearts in your head? Was there an artist that you were like,

oh my God, if Pink were to cut this? Do you know what I mean? Who were you writing? You know, it's really funny? I was too even innocent in the sense that I had just learned that was a job. Like, I didn't think that, I didn't think consciously about writers that gave songs to other people until I moved to L.A. and learned that was actually a job you could do.

and then I absolutely didn't plan ahead, like, at all. Like, which is funny now to me because, like, I was the one singing it on YouTube. I was the one playing it from my friends. Like, I probably couldn't imagine anyone else singing it. And, like, actually, what's funny now about jar of hearts is, like, it's been covered a gazillion times. And, like, that first verse, like, it's really hard to sing it just like me because my voice is so low. So, like, a lot of people sing it very, like, I know. I can take one more, like very Broadway.

And I absolutely love when people cover it. But it is funny because I'm like, wow, I really feel like that's my song. You know what I mean? That's like made for my vocal chords. So I think I was almost insecure. I think it's more about like maybe I wanted to be the one that would sing it because I didn't make a plan, but I didn't know how to go from A to B. I didn't know how to find the confidence to do it.

And that's why I think the universe stepped in and really kind of pushed me through that fear. Is it getting the email from a big manager? Is it, where is the moment where you're like, all right, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this right. So it was my best friend. I have a fairy godmother named Kelty.

She's, well, she was the Radio City Rockette. She was just like a dancer. She was actually my brother's girlfriend for a little while. They broke up. I kept her. She's been my best friend for 20 years. and she moved to L.A. and was like, you are special. No one knows who you are. I'm going to manage you. And I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, I worked two jobs. So good luck. And then she was the one, because this is actually really cool. So I wrote Jar of Hearts on December 29, 2009. So going into 2010. I remember writing it. I was home for Christmas and my parents' house. in Philly. I played it for my mom. She was like, that's nice. Like it was, it was like,

and at the time I wrote on guitar, and I called it jar full of heart, same exact chorus, just different verses and, and no pre. I don't think I, I didn't have that pre yet. And, and so I put it in my pocket like all my other songs. This was not like an aha. I just wrote the song, this can change my life moment. This is just like one of the songs. And so I, I showed Kelty because she's my only fan and also my friend, my only friend, really. And Kelty was like, okay, when you get back to L.A., you're going to perform and I'm going to manage you. And so she called 2010 the 10 and she made me write down a letter to the universe. She's like, get a pen. And I was like, I'm not doing this. Like, I was so less crunchy back then. And she was like, no, we're going to

write a letter and write on the top of the 10. Like we still have this piece of paper, by the way. And she goes, okay, you know, I'll go first. She's like, in 2010, I'm going to quit Diet Coke. I'm going to, you know, get great bangs. She's going to cut her hair. She's like, I'm going to stop dating losers. And I'm going to send Christina magic motivational moonbeams, quote, right? I wrote down.

I'm like, okay. And then like, she's like, okay, your turn. And I'm like, you know, so I put like quit smoking. I smoked cigarettes. play three shows was my thing I wrote and meet Jason Maras was on my list put 20 bucks a week away for savings

because I had no money and bask in Kelty's magic motivational moon beams and I wrote that and then cut to a fly back to L.A. Kelty is a dancer so she was very much into so you think you can dance the show the whole community right and she put on this is crazy and you're not even going to believe this but I swear I'm not making

this up um she lit all the candles in her apartment and she had just broken up with the guy she met on match com and I had just gotten home from work I was exhausted I was already in my pajamas she was like lived across the street for me she's like you need to come over and play a song for me so I can dance and I was like absolutely not I'm tired I'm not doing that she's like but I lit on my candles and so I literally literally walk over in my PJs. She puts a beret on my head so that you can't tell them in my PJs. Sits me in the dark in the corner on a stool. Asked me to sing her favorite of my songs,

which is called Black and Blue. And I'm playing it and she's literally like, you know, just contemporary dancing her feelings out, you know? And I'm just like trying to be a good friend. And I'm just like, are you done? Like, do you feel better? And she's like, I do. I do. Thank you.

We walk out of her apartment. This is the part in the Disney movie. where there's like a star that sort of shoots by. And she puts her arm around me and she's like, you know, Chris, we're looking at Capitol Records. We're on Beachwood Drive in all those teeny little apartments at the bottom. And she puts her arm around me. She's like, you know, Chris, you just need like a real manager. Like, you know, not me. Like someone that actually knows people, someone that can like, you know, have you do stuff, like record things. And I was like, yeah. Okay, bye. And like, I go home, I go to sleep and wake up to that email from that.

manager, I swear, in the morning from Tom Gates. And I'm like, you know, it's like waking up and freaky Friday. I'm just like, wait, am I a witch? Like, what just happened? And then I find out that Kelty posted a video of her doing that because she took like a little video on her point and shoot like tiny camera. I didn't even see it. She posted it on Twitter. And her ex-boyfriend was in a band that had this, I don't know, this guitar player of this band that was friends with Tom Gaggig sent out to go find someone on the internet that nobody knows about.

And then that guy followed Kelty because she dated his singer 10 years ago or something. And he saw this video, I swear to God, I swear, swear, swear. And he saw the video of me playing Kelty dancing and he sent it to Tom. And then Tom looked up my YouTube and then Tom wrote me an email.

And he managed Jason Moraz. And I was like, ah, like this was not. And I'm still trying to answer your question from five minutes ago. Like, this is how fast it happened because then I had jar of hearts. I mean, I had jar full of hearts. And then they were like, you know, do you have a bio? And I was like, of course I have a bio. And then me and Kelsey wrote a bio really fast.

You know, I mean, this was like, I am a person. I am from Pennsylvania. Send. Literally. It's so fast. Yes. I mean, that's how it happened. We were screaming.

Like we actually, Kelty took a picture of me in front of my computer, like pointing out my computer at the email from Tom. Like, it was just like so genuine. And like the type of shit that like is really lightning in a bottle. Like it was so hard for me when my career took off like to tell people what happened. So they could try to do what I did.

Like it was so magical, you know. And like, I don't know. That was just the beginning because then I, I made the demo, right? So then, so Tom and his partner Ryan worked for Bill Silva. They put me together with a guy named Barrett Eretzian and Drew Lawrence, these two guys. We were working for free. We all had other jobs. It took us a month to make a demo. We made, we rewrote, me and Drew

rewrote Jar of Hearts on piano. So we transposed it. Then we wrote the bridge together and the preys together. And I think my, I wrote all the lyrics. Like I, I remember taking home like a, because we would meet so rarely. I took home a voice note and would like work on it, work on it, and then go back to them with ideas and things. All with Jar of Hearts just with that song. Yeah, because they were like, what's your favorite? Like, what should we record?

And I was like, well, I think this one's the best. But like I honestly didn't know. Like I gave them like four options and everybody picked this. This is probably a personal question. But in that case, do you guys split publishing equally? Oh, it's a mess. It's a mess what happened. But yes.

But it was like, it was pretty unfair. I've now 10 years into it, 11 years, 12 years into it. I've never been unfair. I'm such an advocate, you know, an ally for songwriters. But it was like we didn't have anything written down. That's the truth. You know, so like everybody, Drew and I wrote the song and Barrett produced the song. but that's not how it went in the end, which is fine.

Because honestly, it was never about that anyway for me. I moved forward. I was like, well, it moved. Obviously, there are songs you have later that end up trumping that in some ways. And it's like, it's really about the experience and opening the door to. Yeah, but it was my first experience like, I guess, in the music business. Because all of a sudden, I mean, he, here's the thing. It happened so fast that, like, my managers weren't even my official managers.

My lawyer wasn't officially my lawyer. You know, like, nothing. Like, we had to do it all after the fact. So Jar of Hearts, so I make this demo, and then I play it for Kelty. And I'm like, oh, my God, listen to this. Like, this is the coolest I've ever sounded. This is the first time I'm ever recorded. You know what I mean? Like, I'm, I'm like freaking out. But I'm also, I don't want to be the one that sings it. This is the moment where I was like, oh, cool, I'm going to have this demo, but like, I don't think I'm the artist. I think Tom and Ryan are going to help me get this song to a different artist. And so, but still, I had a blast. I mean, I love singing. I've been singing my whole life. So I send it to Caltechian, I'm like, don't show this to anyone. And she's like, yeah, yeah, cool. She immediately emails it to the choreographer on. So you think you

can dance who she happened to grow up with in Canada. Like, they were like little kids together in a dance studio. So she says to Stacy, hey, this is my friend, Christina. a song like it's so great. Maybe one day you can play it on your show. And Stacey said, how about Wednesday? And this was June 30th, 2010, 8 p.m. They play a minute and a half a jar of hearts. I have no record label, no managers.

I'm just a waitress. I had to like put it on iTunes with to ask a favor from someone who knew someone at iTunes. This guy, Jordan, he put it on overnight. They put a photo of me like that we had taken the day before in like a phone. It's the demo. It's never not been the demo. We never like, I mean, I guess we mastered it really fast, but it was just the demo. And they play it in the show, and they'd have this, like, epic dance to it.

And then, and there's seven other songs on that show, by the way, that night, every night, every episode. And Jar of Hearts just, it just exploded. And I kept getting phone calls from, you know, everyone I knew. And I had 6,000 friend requests on Facebook, because I just, had a regular Facebook, you know? And I was like, what is happening? Like, what? Like, it happened so fast.

It was like a tornado. And I didn't sleep the whole night. I was, like, answering everyone's messages. They were like, this song just like, you know, changed my life. I was so depressed. Like, I can't stop crying. Like, I just had this breakup or, you know,

it was just like, you know, people like really emotionally sharing with me. And I was like up the entire night answering them. Like, so much. Oh my God. Thank you. You know, like I was just like this 20th three-year-old waitress that like all of a sudden everybody's listening to and then in the morning

it was I don't know number six I think on the chart stayed there for a whole week I flew to New York city I met with every record label and like now all of a sudden I've got managers I've got these you know this deal to make with with Barrett and Drew and I've got a lawyer and now I sign with Atlantic Records and that was July 6th 2010 It's so crazy because you try to tell people when is the right time to find a manager and it's when they find you. It's the same thing across the board. Fill in the blank, record label, everyone who's sending things out, sending things out. The real time to do it is if you could orchestrate that experience, if you could purposefully get that experience,

that is the best possible experience to get the best representation, the best lawyers, the best label. Also the best record deal, because I already had sold 200,000 singles. So crazy. So like within a week, I mean, this is, you know, still when people were buying music, way more. And our friend Pete Gambarg is a big-hearted individual as far as A&R people go. I imagine that as far as walking into rooms, that that was a comforting. you met with a lot of different A&R people. I mean, why did you choose Atlantic over all of the others?

It's so funny. It's Pete. It was Pete. It was always Pete. It was also Andrew Luffman at the time was his partner. So fun fact, Benny Blanco's mom is who watched Jarvart's song on and so I think you could dance called Benny Blanco and said, I just heard the best song ever.

Benny called Andrew Luffman. Andrew Luffman checked it out. Andrew called Pete. And then Pete called my manager, found me. Within one day. Like, I flew in New York the next day. So what's interesting is I remember I met with every label. I played four or five songs for them.

And when I got to Atlantic, Julie was like screaming at Craig. And Pete and I were talking about New Jersey and Philly. And I was like, I took my shoes off. And that was like for me. Because like, I'm so like Italian. And I'm like, I only make decisions. with my heart. So like, I didn't care about the money. I didn't care about the deal. Obviously, my managers did. But like, I just cared that like I felt so comfy there. And I hung out there

for a while. And then Pete, Pete's been with me since that moment. It's been me and him. The, um, just to give some context for those who don't know, Craig and Julia, the heads of Atlantic. And Pete is, you know, president of ANR. ANR. Yeah, yeah. We just instantly connected. And he liked me because I grew up in a Jewish hair salon, and I told him that we were Bishert, and he, like, fell out of his chair. Yeah, exactly. And he was like, we're mentioning. Like, he helped sell that story, you know, meeting me. He was like, I just knew when she spoke Yiddish to me, like, that I want him over, I guess.

I love that. Okay, so, you know, the song does what it does. We all know what it does. Yeah. Now there's pressure to follow that up. And now there's pressure to, you know, the song does well at radio. you now are performing shows, which must have been, you know, if you've gone from, these songs might get cut by somebody else someday, to I now have to perform in front of people

when you were vomiting just to audition to people. I guess, one, how did you deal with the stage fright of that? And how did you deal with the pressure of following up? Sure. So I'll tell you right now, it happened too fast for me that process the pressure. So like when you're in a trauma, like I literally feel like it was a trauma, even though it was good trauma. It was like I wasn't fully present for the first 10 months. So I went from signing with Atlantic to never going home for 10 months.

And I definitely was traumatized and in a good sense, wasn't able to overthink things. I also was sober, which I have to say was amazing because I was not. I'm just a better human when I'm sober. So I was like really, I had tools. I had tools to help my central nervous system. I had tools like with meditating. I had a sponsor I would talk to. Like I remember that that was like, I was like going through a hurricane,

but I had like roots, if that makes sense. So like my family was so amazing and kept me from losing my mind. And then also my sobriety was a huge, huge root for me. but then also I really didn't think it was going to be me the whole time I still had this like imposter syndrome pretty much until a thousand years came out and then I went okay okay

it's me it's me but I did like I wasn't putting that on myself that like I'll believe that this is this is a real thing if I can strike lightning again I feel like that might have been the pressure that might have been the narrative I had in my head and I didn't know it. But like when a thousand years happened,

I was so, I just think of myself as being so innocent. Like, I didn't know that there was, everyone was judging me that that was going to be the, you know what I mean? I was like, I was just in it. I was too in it to see around it or like look at it. And so coming from it, I was just doing every single thing my manager was asking me to do, which was something every single day. And then when the Twilight stuff came about, I kind of felt like, because I loved Twilight the books and the soundtracks and I just was like, ooh. Like I was like so giddy and nerdy about it. And I made David Hodges come to the studio with me. He was like, I do not want to watch, like, the screening for the film. He's like, I do not want to watch this film. And I was like,

you're watching the film with me, sir. Like he was my best friend at the time. And so he came with me and, you know, it was like, I didn't know it would get picked. I didn't, I thought a million people wrote songs for movies. Like, this was still that 23 year old, innocent, you know, I'm sure no one's going to listen to this. So let's just have fun. You know, I really was not like, oh, this must be great. And oh, I, you know, everyone's like cares. I still had this like, again, I think it's due to low self-esteem. Like, I just thought no one really cared or that no one, you know, may hear this. And so we were so genuine. We were just like, you know, we liked it.

And then it just the success of that, I mean, hasn't stopped, but I remember then being like a little bit more confident. I would say that that's when I was like on stage when everyone is singing along with you.

I mean, Jarvards definitely, but then a thousand years, something happened where like I all of a sudden kind of grew into the performer. I was like, oh, you know, this is like my job, but this is like, this part of it's really important. And like these people are crying. Like I'm looking at them and I'm very present and like I'm very uncomfortable because it's odd when you're very present.

Like I used to ask my band like, what are you guys thinking on stage and they're like thinking? You know, they don't even think. And I'm just like, but, you know. And I'm like looking at all these people having this experience looking at me. And I was just like, okay, okay. like this is of service. It was kind of like, that's what got me through it. Just be of service, show up, don't think about it.

And also get through it. I had to survive it. I'm not going to lie. It was insane. I did 19 tours in a row. How did you stay sober during all that? I didn't. I relapsed the day my album came out, May 10th, 2011.

Then it took me a whole year to get sober again. And funny enough, it wasn't messy. So I think actually drinking was a little bit of self-sabotaging. I was kind of like, oh my gosh, all my dreams came true. Everything's great and I'm just going to like drink. Like it was, it was interesting. I appreciate my story how I got to where I am because of it. But it was a sadness.

And this, I mean, I don't know. I could talk about sobriety all day, but it took me. me realizing that it wasn't the drinking that was a problem. Like I had champagne after the show. I didn't get drunk. I was fine. Everyone's like, you're not an alcoholic. You're fine. And I was like, oh, maybe I'm not. And then I realized that the brokenness and the sadness inside of me was the thing, like I had shut myself off from some sort of light that I have when I'm sober. And it took me an emotional bottom. So in March 1st of 2012, I just wanted to die. And my, one of my best friends came to Portland, Oregon,

to see me do radio promo, just because she had lived there. And she was sober, and she was like, dude, you look like, shit. And I was like, yeah, man, I don't care if I die. And she was like, let's go to a meeting. And then I literally got sober that day and I've been sober since. And it's only because I was so sad, not because I was hungover or sick.

And I think a lot of people who get sober have that version where they're like, oh, I crashed my car, I broke my legs, I lost my wife. I lost all this. And it didn't actually. change your heart until you were emotionally done bankrupt. In the spirit of talking about, you know, writing these songs that are so emotional, that's obviously like one of your fortays, but it seems to have really come out a lot while

collaborating with other people. So it might be antithetical to what you think being truly honest is, like, it almost helps to have someone in the room that acts as like a fellow therapist. Tell me a little bit about your co-writers. I mean, obviously, Hodges has been on the show, good friend, but you have, like, a lot of these great,

you know, you worked with the biggest of the biggest, you know, whether it's Kirsten and Jack Antonoff and Jake Gosling, John Hill, all these great producers and good co-writers. You know, one is at this time, it seems like a lot

of your collaborators are men, which we'll get to later what you're currently working on. But why those collaborators and why did that bring out such honesty for you at that time? Sure. So I'll tell you just straight up, the list was all Pete. I would meet people like Jack Antonin and I were friends and I was like, let's write. You know, like that would happen organically, but really rarely. Normally it was like if I'm doing a right, season. So like if I'm writing my first album or writing my second album, Pete was right there with a list of 40 guys. You know what I mean? And obviously we could talk about this later about, you know, how I've flipped completely the script and and how cool it is to, you know, have a list of 40 women. But I, at the time, I also, you know, didn't even know I really had a choice if I'm being honest.

And to no fault to anybody else. This is just the way it went in 2010 and 12 and 13. And so I would show up to every single person that Pete wanted me to write with because I trusted him. And then I would give some of my opinions and people I wanted to write with or hang out with because I just liked them or was a fan. Or like I became close with Ed Shearin and I was like, I definitely want to work with Jake Gosselin. I just love his record. You know, that would happen organically from me. And then because Pete and I had this really great relationship, we just trusted each other. And that's sort of how it went.

I really never walked out of a writing session without a song. I also walked into every single writing session, exactly the human being I'm being with you right now. And like I was never, you know, lacking in conversation or like shit I'm going through or vulnerability or like honesty. So it was like, I want to think now, you know, that it was probably refreshing for the writers, you know, that I would come in like,

like, well, my heart's broken and I hate this guy and this happened last night and two nights ago, this guy said this and let's fucking go. And like, I was single, meaning not married. So I was just constantly dating like assholes. And it was wonderful. It was like the songs just like just flowed out of me for, and they were all true stories, everything I had been through. I'm sure some writers that I wrote with were like, this girl is so like, you know, because I'm just like an overshare.

But like, that's the only way I knew how. And that would make me comfortable because if I went in a room and like, I don't know, was not sharing what I was feeling or going through, I'd feel really inauthentic and weird. Like, I didn't know how to even be that way. So I didn't overthink it. I was just like, you know, yeah, this is what's going on. And I connected so deeply to these people because, as you know, songwriting is like the most

intimate thing ever. You're not just like, I mean, unless I think, I'm sure there's. scenarios where six people get in a room and they're like, let's write a hit. I don't know. I've never been in that room. I have no idea how that goes, like, you know, with these big time pop writers. I go in a room with singer songwriters and we're just like our feelings and we're so blue. And you know what I mean? And it's like, how do we even write a happy song? Like I remember me and Jamie Scott were like, dude, we'd written five songs together. And I was like, I have nothing up tempo. Like, whatever that means, I keep hearing my label say that. Like, we need something.

and he was like, have you ever been happy? I'm like, no. But that's so, it's so funny, because here you are smiling for, you know, throughout this entire interview, telling your journey, which has trauma attached to it, but still there's this catharsis

with being able to talk about it, and you have this ability to find some joy in where you've ended up so far. And so it's, you know, also I mean this is a different moment than than it is in 2014 and so it's you know it's obviously different I imagine also like you had you'd been on tour with your brother and you've been surrounded by a lot of you know guys in the music business that it wasn't uncomfortable for you to be in a room with a bunch you know with guys talking about things that matter because you've been

if you ever toured you know that like it's the same thing on tour and maybe even more vulnerable as it would be in a session. So I imagine that you were able to jump to a conversation that has depth from the outset. Yeah, I never felt uncomfortable. I also have to say I never got weird vibes from someone. Also, because I'm from Philly and I'm Italian. I think people don't just hit on me. You know what I mean?

I have this energy maybe where I go more into broland very easily because I have a brother. I wasn't like flirty and it was never the vibe in the writing session for me. It never felt like I was a girl and they were a boy. You know what I mean? It was like we just instantly connected. It was just musicians in a room making music. Yeah. Yes.

It was so beautiful. I really had incredible experiences and felt lucky to get to know so many amazing writers and musicians and producers and, you know, and it would get messy. It was like I was also dramatic. Like now I'm like laughing and it's cute because I think about, my younger self or like but I was like you know dealing with at some point me and Pete would disagree so much like I mean they like remixed the song I had 25 times and then went back to the original mix like I've had like just the drama of being in a major label and and I also like kind of took a really big break

because of it like if we're trying to sort of catch up to today I was on tour like I said like 18 tours in a row. It was five and a half years straight. When I got home, I was like, see ya. Like, I'm broken, you know, like, everything about me. Like, I had exhausted it all. And, like, I just laid on the floor for a whole week. Like, you know, not to be so dramatic, but I did.

I put together Legos for, like, a whole month. And, like, literally pulled myself back together. But I was like, cool, I'm never going to do this again. Like, I played Gillette Stadium with Ed Sheeran on September 25th, 2015 and when I walked off the stage I took a bow and I was like I'm out like what a way to go like it was literally 55,000 people like all singing and I was like say yeah and I was just like I'm done I was completely I had absolutely no interest in doing it again I thought all my dreams came true had a great time I'm out and everyone who knows me knows I really really felt that and then

just the way life happens and works is, you know, I'm a writer. I'm not a performer, right? So then I'm realizing, oh, well, I'm home for all these years. Like, of course I'm writing. I'm just not performing. So then, like, as I'm writing and writing and writing, I go through the craziest five years of my life, which is the past five years emotionally. I mean, getting married and, uh, I mean, the pandemic, obviously, but like, for me personally, I had, I became a mom. And then I had, a miscarriage and then I had a stillborn child and and then uh you know the grief I just became just just in grief like I just was like well I'm a different human now like I had so many transitions and uh wrote through it all literally because I don't know what else to do I'm songwriter that is my

heart that is my language and so when everyone was like you know how are you surviving it's like like the truth is I wrote about it, you know, and it's like now, looking back, I'm so glad I did because I was writing the whole time and I have all five years worth of life written. And my new album is about literally the hardest stuff ever. It's so funny because, you know, it's in my lane. Like, I mean, it's not funny, but it's funny that I have a song about like, you know, postpartum depression and death. Like, you know, it's like I did, there's nothing I skipped. this time and like my brain thought I was gonna I was gonna stop I was gonna be a normal person I was gonna change who I am completely and in reality my life was like no you're not you're gonna

write about everything you're going through you are that voice for a lot of people and then then you're gonna put it out in the world and like that's who you are and like it's funny because here I am at 35 talking about being 23 and being like, it's not me, it's not me. And like, that's reality. I'm still like, is it me? Isn't it me? Like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's me.

But I have a different perspective now, but my writing is exactly the same. Like everyone asks like my process and how am I different now? I'm not. I write about what I'm going through. It heals me first. If no one hears it, it's fine because it worked for me, you know? But I'm honored now. something about having a break for five years that makes me feel like, you know, plus the

pandemic, like, and everyone not working and just like having that collective trauma, like, I'm just honored now. It's different. I don't feel like I have to do it. I feel like I want to do it. I feel like these songs, if anything, are going to, you know, kind of go out into the world of specifically for moms, you know, and if I only write songs for moms for the rest of my life, be fine, you know, but I know there are people who are listening that I think are really going to like it. And I'm genuinely very proud of turning all the pain I've had into music again. Yeah, I mean, there's something amazing about, you know, obviously I know a lot of the collaborators on the new album, too, Jen DeSilvio and Mozilla and Wendy Wang and Amy Wage, of course,

Rachel Platton, Asia. All these people are like, Asia is like a really good family friend. You know, like, you know, the, the fact that you've surrounded yourself with talented, capable women in a business that tends to just be so male heavy is where the music industry can go. You have an executive producer that's female, and to be honest, females should also be executive producing male artists as well. and I think the industry should

acknowledge that a lot of women producers are as talented and can see things that a lot of men producers can't. And so I applaud you for casting such talented people around you regardless of their gender. These people are the best in the business.

And you're talking about things in this that, you know, I have a nine-month-old. So it's like what women go through in creating a human and sustaining life of a human is truly remarkable. And a lot of artists are afraid to talk about the parts of life that are difficult.

A lot of people just don't, a lot of artists as they mature, they struggle with talking about the things that are relevant to them. And so, again, I applaud you on having concepts that, actually matter to yourself and to more people than, you know, I think, you realize, like that's going to be a really positive message. Thank you. I really felt like I have to say two things. One is when there was like a meme that went around. I think it was the Grammys in 2019 maybe or something and it was just like a statistic that said it was like 95% men, 5% women in production, and then like 3% women in engineering or whatever, or mixing.

And like, that actually just like really got to me. I was like, because at the time, I'd already become a mom. So once I became a mom, I like really changed my whole world, like my perception, the filter that I had on life. It just completely changed. I'm sure you know becoming a dad even, but definitely for your partner. Like, it's just like, you can't, you don't never. go back. It's like pre-mom or pre-parent and then after-parent. And so that happened for me as far as like

wanting to surround myself with like real warm, you know, feminine energy. But then I was just like, damn, like if artists like me don't hire these women, then that's not like, you know what I mean? you can read something like that, but you got to actually make the move. So when Pete was like, are you ready to write? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, okay, here's my list of men. And I was like, cool, cool, cool, give me 25 women first, you know? And he was like, okay, like I had to do that. Like, artists like me have to do that, you know? Like, we just do.

And like, that's how it's going to change, you know? And I hired Gina Johnson, the greatest engineer ever. And she flew to New Jersey and made this whole album with me. And it was like the best experience I ever had with an engineer who just, like, cared so much about what I thought of my voice, you know? And it was just like, and I'm not saying men can't be that way. It's just that I did that. and now I'm doing this and it was just where it was at in my life and who I felt comfortable to be around.

And also it was my choice to just give women this opportunity. And it was the best. It was literally, it's like I really think like I love all my albums, but like this one is my favorite for so many reasons. And I think that the sound and the vibe and like everything about it coming out of like brokenness, This is just like so floral and beautiful and feminine and like, heck yeah. That's my season. This is the season I'm in.

It doesn't matter for anyone else. Like this is just my season of being a mom and having a daughter and wearing pink. Oh, wearing pink and purple. Like that's not me 10 years ago. So I'm staying true to who I've evolved into and also loving the narrative that I've given all these women this work. Like my vocal producer is a girl. my manager is a girl.

Like, it's just kind of like what I'm choosing to surround myself with. But like I'm happy. I'm so happy that it's, that like, that's what's happening right now. It's a good, it's a good moment, you know? Yeah, I was in a session yesterday. And I work with this female producer and we had a female co-writer and a female artist and a female manager and a female executive. And to be able to say, like, you know, Everyone in this room stop and look around

because this is what the music industry is right now and it will only improve over time where hopefully where people should if they have the ability to open the door for other people they need to do that and men need to be allies in this discussion. It can't just be women opening the door for women. Men need to do that too

and people of color and other others. Everyone should be opening the door for other people. It's really how things change. So again, very cool. So we're going to go to this next segment. We're going to go five for five. I'm going to list

five people and just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Okay. All right. We're going to start with Pete Gambarg. Oh. Do I just do one word? You could do whatever you want. No one's...

I love him. I love him. He's my family. Okay, I like that. He really is. Let's go with Jen DeSilvio, the executive producer of your new album. Oh, dude. My fucking ride or die, my number one.

My Italian princess sister from another mister. Let's go with Jason Mraz. Oh, the original love of my life. I hope he hears this. If not, we should text him. Let's go with your husband. Oh, Paul. He is my rock.

Literally couldn't get through life without him. Your daughter. My twin flame, my North Star, my whole entire world. Okay, one more. Your brother. Aw. My best friend and my inspiration and my favorite person. Did you guys, as we're finishing up, I just, how, how was the dynamic between the two of you as your star kind of like shot up, you know, and going through all this stuff?

Did you guys always, was there always the brother-sister support? Was there always a good relationship throughout all of it? Honestly, yeah. He was doing his thing. He was doing his own thing. I was doing my thing. He couldn't have been happier. He's come to everything I've ever done.

We wrote a song together for my first album. We did it song together for my Christmas EP Like when we can collaborate, we do He lived in L.A And then he got married and had a baby Moved to Laguna and then he moved back to Philly So as far as like hanging out as much as we would love to We don't, but like he was just visiting here for two weeks

We went to Disneyland, we're obsessed with Star Wars We're just like the same person We even look like twins So like we hang out as much as we can And we support each other The best way we can We've just got it. My mom and dad are real happy with how tight we are.

Well, thank you for doing the podcast. Yeah, thank you. I feel like we've like circled around each other in this business for a long time. And somehow not really been in the same room, but we have so many friends in common that I feel like I know so much about you already. But it was really good having you. Yeah, man. It was awesome talking to you. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself.

Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.