And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 166: Carianne Marshall

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Today’s guest is Co-Chair and COO of Warner Chappell Music (WCM), the global publishing arm of Warner Music Group. She is at the forefront of a new generation of music executives at the intersections of creative and commercial, entertainment and technology. Known for being a champion of songwriters and their songs, her dynamic, innovative approach drives the development and promotion of music creators at all stages of their careers. Along with Warner Chappell’s Co-Chair and CEO, Guy Moot, our guest oversees the company’s global business, which includes a full spectrum of high-touch support services focused on creating transformational opportunities for its legendary roster of songwriters and rich catalog of songs. Since starting at WCM, she and Guy have built a culture of service and creative identity anchored in the company’s shared values of curiosity, collaboration, and commitment.Prior to joining WCM in June 2018, she was one of three partners at the acclaimed independent music publisher SONGS. During her time at SONGS, the company built a roster of over 300 songwriters, signing Lorde, The Weeknd, Diplo, and many others. She has also held positions at Universal Music Publishing, DreamWorks Music Publishing, and Elektra Records. As one of the leading voices in the music industry, our guest has been named one of Billboard's “Women in Music: The Most Powerful Executives in the Industry” for the past seven years running as well as included in the publication’s esteemed “Power 100” list in both 2019, 2020 and 2022. She was also recognized on Variety’s Variety500, along with the publication’s LA Women’s Impact Report. She holds a BA degree in Communications from the University of Southern California. And The Executive Is… Carianne Marshall! Watercolor by: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey what's up, it's Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update. Bad Bunny is Apple Music's Artist of the Year for 2022.

John Knocker-Nolls, a highly beloved British music industry figure who worked with artists including Bob Marley and the Whalers and Chris Rhea, sadly passed away last week at the age of 73. New York-based reservoir media generated revenues of $33.3 million in Q3 of 2.3 of 20. 22. YouTube has surpassed the milestone of 80 million paid YouTube music and premium subscribers worldwide. Warner Music's emerging markets division has launched a new label called Out of Order. TikTok is cutting its global revenue target for this year by 20%, or by at least $2 billion amid a decline in advertising spending and e-commerce. Hypnosis has a big share in this year's John Lewis Christmas sink. Band Lab Technologies has hired Danny Deal as head of communications and creator insights.

The France-based audio streaming platform, Deezer, has appointed veteran marketing executive Maria Grito as a new chief marketing officer. WME has signed hip-hop legend Snoop Dogg in all areas. Jess Glynn has signed two EMI following management deal with Rock Nation. Sony Music Publishing Nashville has signed up-and-coming country singer-songwriter Madeline Merleau to a global publishing agreement. Kido has signed a publishing deal with Seeker Music. Halsey has signed with BMG for worldwide publishing. A big thank you to Charlotte Isidore of Megahouse for gathering today's news. Now stay tuned for this week's episode of Anne The Writer is.

Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's publishing rock star is co-chair and chief operating officer of Warner Chapel Music. Prior to Chorchapel, she worked for electric records, universal music publishing, DreamWorks music publishing, and Vox Productions, before becoming a partner in a little independent company called Songs Publishing, which famously signed Lord and the Weekend and Diplo, DJ Mustard, and more. As one of the leading voices in the music industry, our guest has been named one of Billboard's Women in Music, the most powerful executives in the industry for the past five years as well as her perennial inclusion in the Publications Power 100 list. She also has been recognized on Variety's Variety 500, along with the Publications LA Women's Impact Report. All the way from Los Angeles, California, this fellow NMPA board member is absolutely.

absolutely brilliant and absolutely humble. And the publisher is, my friend, Carrie Ann Marshall. Hello. Okay, so full disclosure, you are my publisher. That's true. And you didn't even pay me to do this interview. We are choosing to do this because you're rad. No, you have such a cool journey where I,

think um i think there are like predictable paths of a lot of people in the music business because many people um maybe they aspire to be something and then they kind of just they fall up do you know what the peter principle is you know or it's like they they they get they continue to um get promoted in sort of the latter system whatever that may be and and then there are some people where it's like, and what's so cool about your journey is that you created the environment for your own success in such a very exciting way. And so I want to tell that story because it's not really the same as everybody else's story. And it's, so yeah, I'm excited to, to start this. Yeah, certainly not the same story. That's for sure, which is cool. Yeah. Well, let's

start with like, you know, the pre-university of Southern California, also my alma mater, and they aren't paying for us to do this either. But previous to USC, did you have any desire to work in music? Did you play instruments growing up? What's the music connection for you? Okay, so my parents are like, they're amazing, they're totally civilians. Like, I had no idea that there was a a music business, like, at all. I was the kid that just made mixtapes for everybody. So it's sort of funny that I ended up a publisher, right? Because it was always about the song for me. I didn't have a lot of access to music. I would tape off the radio or various people's cassettes or mixes or CDs later. But I was always the person that made mixtapes for everybody. And in fact, I found

like a notebook a few years ago that had a list of most of the, the mixtapes I made for people in high school and college. And oh my God, it was, it was pretty funny. Um, you know, so, so I was always a big fan of songs. And I, I had friends that worked in bands or that was played in bands. And, you know, I had this moment, um, that I actually shared with somebody recently that I didn't realize how, I don't know how meaningful it was until I kind of reflected on it later. So a friend of mine was the keyboard player in a local band. And he came over to my house for something. My dad was like relatively, let's call it traditional.

And my friend didn't go to college, had long hair. And my dad was kind of like, oh, musician, I hear you play the piano. Why don't you play us something? We had a piano in the house. I took piano lessons. I was terrible. And, you know, my friend Steve, like, relaxed. And he sat in front of the piano and play.

I don't remember what he played, but it was exceptional. And afterwards, I sort of said to him, oh, my goodness, like, how many years have you taken piano lessons? And he looked at me like I was nuts. And he's like, oh, I never took a piano lesson. I just like, I just always played. And it was kind of like that moment. Everybody's obviously, the musical journey is different to. But it was kind of that moment where I was like, holy shit, I've been taking piano lessons

for like eight years and I'm terrible. And this guy can just make music. How do I work with people who do that? Because I can't do that. And so it was sort of like that realization combined with like my mix tapes combined with the fact that like I didn't go back east to college like I wanted, which is another story for another time. I thought I'd always work in music or in sports.

And I'm a big sports fan too, which, you know, kind of is a big part of, frankly, how I like to lead and what I like my work environment to feel like. I like camaraderie, not the competition part. I like the team building piece. But, you know, I really, I really, you know, I ended up going to school as we talked about it at USC. And that's how I kind of started to learn about the music business. But it was always, it was like, it was always music. And it was sort of at that point when I talked, when I had that experience with Steve, where I was like, oh, how do I do this? How do I help people like that? I ended up working with his band. And that led me to get, you know, a job at a local, you know, production promotion company and then

eventually an internship. But, you know, he and his friends in the band, my friends were kind of the conduit to me, even starting to learn about the music business in general. Yeah, there are two parts of this that I wanted to comment slash ask a question. One is we were just saying before that I wish publishers understood songwriters and songwriters understood publishing. Both those things should happen. And what happens for a lot of songwriters is making music and making songs as innate. It's something you were like, it seems so easy and I can't understand why other people can't do that. But most songwriters are so oblivious to the idea of how to get music out there and what music is worth and what how

to how to build off of being so creative. And so it's so interesting that that point is that synergy that's so natural. People want to know what publishing is. It's that. It's somebody who's a fan of a songwriter whose sole goal is to make that songwriter successful. That is the, that is so, it's so pure that moment of realize. you know, that that's what you wanted to do. And I think, too, you know, because at that point,

I didn't even know what publishing was. I just knew it was like, I want to help people like this guy. I swear, Guy and I talk about this all the time. If more people who were interested in the music business knew about music publishing, we really think there would be a lot more people that would, you know, I guess like, you know, come to this part of. the business. I think a lot of times when people hear about the music business and frankly, me too when I started, although I kind of started in, you know, live and booking and management,

a very sort of local level. But publishing is sort of that like behind the scenes. In fact, the way I got into publishing, I was, you know, I didn't think it was that sexy. I sort of like heard. I'm like, oh, copyrights. Like I didn't like connect the Steve piece to the publishing piece until a few years later. And then when I did, it was quite an aha moment. But the way I think people talk about publishing is not really what I think publishing is. And like you said, what I think publishing is, like helping songwriters, like getting songs out there, keeping songs alive. And certainly part of that, of course, is this backbone of like administration and registration and all of the stuff that's really important. But at the core of it is like really making sure that we can help

writers write songs for living. Like that's it. And it's amazing. Yeah, you, you refer, first of all, you referred to Guy and Guy Mute is who you're referring to who's your co-chair at Warner Chapel has a very different journey than you have in this. But I just wanted to refer to who guy is when you refer to him. You said, you know, that you would have worked in sports or you would have worked in music. And a lot of people use sports analogies when they describe music and when they describe publishing. Is there a specific sport in mind when you are thinking of a sport and how it's analogous to music?

And also, what is your position on the team? Are you a quarterback or are you a coach? Oh, that is tough. I mean, I never really thought about it. By the way, I just threw football in as the analogy. It could be anything. It could be fencing. I don't know.

I mean, I don't know. I think what's important, frankly, is that, and I guess the way I've looked at it with my journey is like I want to play whatever role I can, whatever position I can to help the team win, right? You know, one of the things, my dad was a high school basketball coach for a number of years when I was a kid and sort of sports were always like part of my life growing up. I was an incredible athlete. I just, like, I'm a big fan. And I love the camaraderie, especially, like, I'm a big college football fan.

I'm a big baseball fan. I kind of like all the sports, but there's only so much capacity. I used to be really into hockey and, like, the older I get. And I have a nine-year-old, too. So it's like there's just not as much capacity. But I do think it's sort of like about, you know, when you're part of a team, you kind of do whatever you need to do in order to help the team win. And when I mean my, when I think about winning, I think about moving forward.

I think about learning. I think a lot about that. And, you know, somebody had asked me recently, you know, how I always wanted to run a music publishing company. This has always been my goal. And I'm like, no. And that doesn't mean I'm not grateful. I'm really grateful for where I am.

I think it's incredible. I love my job. I love working with Guy who you mentioned my co-chair at Warner Chapel. But my goal was always to learn and to always be curious and to certainly move up, like, whatever that meant for me. But I never thought about like a linear path. I did a lot of things very early in my career. I sort of checked off the list going, okay, I did that thing. I know I still want to be in music,

but like I don't want to be a booking agent or I don't want to do college radio promotion. Or I don't want to, like, by doing them. And so I'm like kind of not answering your question, but I do think that like I have been lucky enough to have played many roles, have been in many positions, right? And I think for me, it's about like what is the team need? How can I give the team what I need. I think maybe the role I'm playing now is like, I don't know, it's not totally coach because there's like a lot of doing, but it's partially that. You know, it just depends on frankly the day, which is kind of what I love to, right? It's like every day is a different, it's a different thing. Well, it's almost like, it's almost like maybe it's even more like a front office kind of

situation where it's like the, because just thinking of the analogy and you describing the team, I called you my publisher, which you are. I also have other publishers at Warner Chapel. You know, I'm signed to Ryan Press. But like I talk to, you know, the entire staff, Rich and John and Katie and Kate and then BJ and, you know, Kurt and all these people, depending on where where we're talking, all of them are different, in a way, almost their coaches or they're the coaches. And then, you know, there's sort of like the front office kind of thing where there's certain people that you talk to for sort of maybe bigger things or bigger concepts. But do you find that the higher up you go, the further you are from songwriters? Or do you feel like you're able to maintain that moment of

sitting in a living room and watching someone play piano and be like, I want to work with that person, you know, that individual. That's a really good question. And something I've been thinking a lot about now. I don't know if it has as much to do in my particular case with like as high up as you go. I think it has to do like right now. I've been thinking a lot about making sure I like dig back in, get to know more of our writers, like spend more time in that creative space that really drives me.

You know, the last few years of Warner Chapel, not only did we have like the black hole of COVID, which was like really gnarly, but also like pretty amazing to see how people came together. Like I have probably like, like many of us have like really strong feelings all over the place about that period of time. But also, you know, a guy and I were new in our roles. And so a lot of the time I particularly have spent the last few years is working on process and, organization and all of these things I think will help the songwriter experience be better. Ultimately, will really help our songs be more present in the world. Like, it's efficiency stuff. You know, I also have the, you know, since my path has been different, like a lot of people,

I think in the role that I'm in a role like the one I'm in, have kind of like through their career, gotten farther and farther and farther away from writers. or from, you know, like where they started or whatever. But, you know, at songs, we were doing everything. We had to build it. So, like, I think I'm a lot closer to the work than a lot of people who are in a position that's kind of like mine. You know, we had to be.

You know, I came to songs. My last role before that was a synchronization executive, but I had had this background of doing, like, all these other things. and knew a bunch of people in the business because my path was so non-linear, let's say. And so, like, it was, I love to build and I love to bring people together. And that, like, community piece is really what I think a lot about when I think about sports. I think about work is, like, building community, whether it's the writers or the people we work with. So, you know, I'm lucky to have a pretty solid community and foundation.

And I'm excited now that we're sort of, I don't know if we can say like COVID's like not over, but like we're able to be out in the world more to really kind of marry that community piece, the creative piece with a lot of the other work that I've been doing. I think kind of abs and close. I do think that probably for a lot of people, Ross, you do get farther and farther and farther way. And our responsibilities are different, you know? They just are.

So we have to balance it differently. Do you feel like your experience having worked as a sync executive? And I want to go back to your journey a little bit. But you know, you have Wendy Christensen is the first person I ever met at Warner Chapel long before I signed there who's just a genius at what she does. And that whole staff, Millie and whatnot. Do you find that, do you like walk into that office and feel like more at home because that's something that? you had spent so much time working in sync? Or do you find that the A&R part of the business is exciting

because it's something that wasn't what your last position was? I'm going to answer your question pretty differently. I think I'm really obsessed with our admin team. Oh, nice. I think people sort of forget that administration is almost like the circulatory system. you know, it's like it touches every single department. You know, if the sync team's able to land something, like the money gets processed through

administration, like everything goes through administrative with songwriter gets signed, copyright registration. So I've actually been spending a lot more time, like digging into that piece. I mean, you know, that's an interesting question, though, too. Like at songs, previous to songs, I was, you know, a sync person that did. the synchronization job differently than most of my colleagues because my background was different, which was really fun. You know, I like knew that manager over here and this attorney and I have this booking agent. I knew that person there. And it was just like, I sort of used some of my

radio promo skills. I did college radio promo. I used to keep a notebook and I had like every station. And I'm like, okay, John's dog's name is, you know, I don't know. What I'm whatever, Fido. And then I'd call John. John, how's your dog, Fido? And like, just, but I like to know people. So then you, like, get to know people. And the more you get to know people and connect with people, that more fun it is to do business with them, right? So that's kind of like how I looked at synchronization, how I look at the world in general. I like to like people. I like to find things in common. I like to know about them. You know, so it's songs. Like, I built the sync team there, but also was doing a ton of other shit. So, you know, I brought in a number of writers. I'm not, never going to call

myself like an ANR person. My first job in publishing was ANR. I was an ANR assistant and then I was an ANR coordinator. And I love, I love bringing in writers. But, you know, my function's a little bit different. But we also, like, you know, built the entire song's business from scratch. You know, my, my partners and I and a couple of the people that were there from the beginning. So, you know, I guess it like depends on the day, Ross. Like, yeah, I'm comfortable in synchronization, but I also have an incredible global sync leader named Rich Robinson, who has, we've never had a global sync person at Warner Chapel. So he like brings the entire group of people across the world together. And I want to make sure, like, I'm there to help if I need to, but I also don't want to, like, interfere because that had been my role before.

I'm course energized, you know, by A&R. And I'm like learning about all this other stuff too. Like our finance team and how they work with digital and how digital works with creative services. Like I like the connection points, right? Like I get really nerded out. Yeah, it's when it's really like the music industry is so deep. And when you were saying your parents were civilians,

nobody teaches you. You think of music industry as though they're those artists or they're those singers on American Idol. Maybe they're those judges. That's like the version of that for when we were growing up. Like that's what we thought the music industry was. You know, you heard about people getting signed, but that's it. You don't realize that Katie Hyde and admin is processing everybody's splits or, you know,

just the vastness of just a publishing company in itself in the music business is so intense. It is. And I think that, like, one of the things that's really important, I'm sure in any business, but that we try to really, you know, we've really tried to work on at Warner Chapel. It's like every single person adds value. And every single person should know what the person next to them is doing too, right? Like there tends to be, I think probably in many businesses, like you put your head down, you get your work done, you're kind of disconnected from the bigger picture.

And we've tried to do a lot of work back to the, you know, my cheesy go team thing. But we try to do a lot of work to say, like, hey, person who's inputting, you know, doing data entry, like, because you're doing this, you're helping this writer get paid. Like, every single job is so important. And we are trying to make sure that people know what the other departments do, too. We actually had every single department lead do a one-hour presentation that we asked the entire company to watch. So like everybody could hear about admin and digital and ANR creative services and all like all the teams sync all of it. So we think that that helps us do better work for our songwriters if everybody kind of understands how it all works together. So like I don't have a like favorite thing.

I just like, you know, I've been publishing since 1999 and learning something new every day, which is exciting and. kind of terrifying, but it's motivating as well. I love it. It says a lot about how the industry evolves, too, that whatever was going on in 1999 is, you know, if the human anatomy changes itself every seven years, you can probably assume the music industry does a similar thing. And so the rules that go along, some of them are archaic, but so many things are moving on technologically and how things are moving and the way. music's consumed is so different than 1999 that like it is exciting to see try to guess what's what the next steps are um but speaking of steps let's just quickly go through a little bit of the journey you know

you graduate from from USC and the first you like you were saying you started doing internships was that during college or was that after college it was all during college I finished at night actually Oh, interesting. But I finished at my mom works at USC, so it was pretty cool. I had a pretty interesting path once I got in there. My mom got a job there. She still works there. So like I better finish.

But yeah, I was working throughout the whole time. I didn't have a car for a lot of that. So I had to get this little tricky. And we couldn't do this, right? You couldn't just like get on a, get on a zoo or whatever. So, like, I was working for this company that managed my friend's band during college. And I, like, was booking tours with, like, a pole star, which is, you know, the, I guess it's like a book at the time where it would, like, list every single venue and a map and a calculator. So I'd, like, cold call the venues to see if they would be.

book my band. And then I'd have to like take the calculator and the map out to see how far you could drive in a day. And then I'd try to like root the tour. I mean, it was ridiculous. It was like a great learning experience. And at the same time, I don't remember I'd been at USC a couple of years. I think at that point, I got an internship at electoral records in the ANR department. And I was like just helping go through demos and stuff. It was my first exposure at all to the action. like business like at my other company I sort of knew the guys in the clubs I knew some booking agents you know like bits and piece managers um so I knew some people but I sort of was on the outskirts and then um at Electra I had this ANR internship and then one of the guys funnily enough

I'm going to have a conversation with him today still in the business who was an ANR guy then kind of put me up for this college rep job. And at the time in the L.A. market, the college rep job did radio promotion for all the college stations, which in L.A. was kind of a big deal because it was like KCRW, KXLU, like some pretty great stations. And so I was in charge of that as well as putting together like kind of street marketing stuff. And it was great. It was great. And then it was 1999. And I was like technically graduating, but also like it was like the year of the mergers. Like Polygram and MCA had merged and become universal publishing. There was like a bunch of turmoil in the music business. I didn't know what I was going to do next. The folks at Electra were really great.

And I was like very grateful to have job opportunities at Electra. They said, you know, there's a radio promotion job in San Francisco. for like, I think the alternative rock stations or something up there. And then there was a FMR job available. And was I interested in either of those? FMR was just like a field marketing rep. It was like the person for a region that would put like the CDs in Blockbuster. Blockbuster.

Everybody starts a tower. Right? Like in you, Sam Goody, whatever. Didn't do that. Dodge that bullet, right? Like that's a different business now. And then a friend of mine was a booking agent on his own. And he's like, I'm looking for help when you have booking experience.

Why don't you come be my like junior booking agent? I like didn't like booking. I like didn't like booking. Like I know I want to be in the music business. What else can I try? So at that moment, I've told the story a number of times, but it's like it's, you know, it's real and it's a good story. I want to see X play at the Palladium.

Electro Records had just put out the X. anthology and, you know, they were doing big show. And I like stuck into the VIP as I tended to do because I kept, you know, my wristbands and my car split them on my wrist. It's like, I'm already upstairs. And I ran into a friend of mine named Betsy Anthony, who at the time was the head of West Coast A&R for the new Universal Music Publishing. And she said, well, you know, there's an assistant job available on my team, on the ANR team, you know, not working for me. And I'm not working for me, but working for some of these other people, I could throw your resume in the ring. And I was like, okay, okay, tell me. And she's like giving me all, you know, all these things. It was like connecting

it kind of to my Steve experience a little bit. It was like, it's the beginning. It's like where it all starts. It's where it's so creative. And then I, you know, she's like, and I love it. And here's why. And I said, oh, okay, well, could you put my resume in the mix then, please? She said, only if you're serious. Honestly, only if you're serious. There's so many people that would want this job. And she passed along my resume and I got the job. And that was my first job in music publishing is that in the ANR department at Universal Music Publishing in 1999. It's so interesting. Like all you want are these people who, that's who you're Yoda. Do you know what I mean? That's your, that's your, it's the person who heard, heard your,

youthful hubris and instead of throwing away that opportunity, she didn't let you do that. And she used that as a learning moment, as a teaching moment. And that's just like, I think we all look at those people who, you know, our mentors in the business, who had to hear us say some stupid things along the way and not throw us us away the way we would have thrown them away. I think that's been the, I think that's, that's amazing to have someone like that. Once you started working in the, as an assistant there, how soon from, you know, you know, answering phones did you go to like, oh, I can actually help coordinate this session or, you know, what's the difference between becoming an assistant and becoming an A&R person at that point?

It was huge. And by the way, fun fact, Betsy works at Warner Chapel now. Isn't that cool? Yeah. She's on the creative services team. Oh, very cool. All right.

Super fun. So, so, you know, in the 90s, it wasn't really about sessions. It was bands. It was like most of the people that we worked with were like writers in bands. And I was like such, such a, I was, you know, answering phones and like scheduling calendars for three women in the

business. One of them is still kicking ass here in L.A. Donna Kassan, who's over at Reservoir. Yeah, Donna, Donna was one of my yodas. So shout out. He's amazing. Yeah. So you can ask her how I, how I did. But I was, I was only an assistant there for about a year. And then I got a call from a guy who's no longer in the business, but somebody I knew through a friend that I had met at Electra Records. Again, it's like, this is such an, like, it's all the people, right? It's all the people you know. I mean, I talk about this all the time when I speak to young people in particular, like, it's relationships. It's like listening well, it's being interested. And, you know, my pal, still a good friend of mine, Tom DeSabia, had worked with this guy from DreamWorks named Mike Batamy.

And Mike had, that's how I knew Mike a little bit, was through Tom. I met Tom at Elektra. And my batamy called me and was like, hey, I'm looking for a coordinator. And he was an A&R person at DreamWorks publishing, which was really small. And he said, you know, I'm looking for a coordinator. And you know, like, too, like being an assistant, being coordinator, it's like a really hard jump to make. And then the next big jump to make is like not answering phones at all. And they're tricky.

like when you're kind of moving through the business. I remember friends of mine who are also college graduates going like, what do you mean somebody has to leave for you to get promoted? What do you mean you have to leave to take another job? Don't you just get promoted for like doing well? And I was like, no. Like there has to be a job opening. Like in that concept for my friends outside of the business was really foreign.

And they were like fully, you know, going. to the movies and going to get drinks and going to do it. And I'm like, I have no money to do that. But I know every door guy in the city. So I can get into every show I want. And that makes me happy. And I knew all the secret parking spots. So it's fine.

So I said to my bad to me, I was like, he goes, you know, I'm looking for an ANR coordinator. And somebody that might help with sync licensing too, DreamWorks release is really small. Do you know anyone? And I said, yeah, me. And so he hired me. But, you know, I went to DreamWorks and, you know, Mike Batamy was tough. Like, he, he was really tough.

You know, I learned a lot. You know, one time I, like, had tickets there for him for, like, a Rufus Wainwright show for him and a client. And, like, the tickets weren't there. And it was pre-cell phone. And I didn't, like, leave a backup plan if the tickets hadn't been there. I didn't give him, like, the box office person. name or any other information. I know this might sound like silly to you or the people that are listening, but that moment was like, I swear to God, like these little moments, right, that totally

helped me understand how to do my job now even. What's the backup plan? How do we make sure we have the detail? Like, what does that look like? If A doesn't work, what does B look like? Being in a system prepares you for a lot of things. It's really hard. And so after I sort of had to, done that a while, DreamWorks was getting bigger. And it was like, and we still really small. I worked on, and Mike Padamy worked on like Jimmy Eat World and Papa Roach and a lot of Rufus Wainwright. And we had some catalog, Billy Strayhorn and part of the Birds catalog and the motels. And but it was pretty small. And there was a guy named Chuck Kay who ran DreamWorks publishing, who became my like mentor. And I, and so I was doing a little bit of synchronization.

than pitching, but it wasn't really a robust business at the time. Nobody gave a shit. They're like, yeah, whatever. Get something on, you know, small bill or whatever show. And then things started to change. You know, maybe records weren't selling as much as they used to. Maybe people were paying attention to the reaction of a song in the real world. And DreamWorks said, you know, we probably, we need a synchronization person. And Chuck Kay said, we're going to promote you, kid, get to be our sync person. And I said, what happens if I can't do it? Like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to do this. It goes, well, then you get fired. But we don't think you're going to fail. So like, figure it out, kid. Yeah. And like, it was amazing because he just trusted me. He's like, I just,

I feel like you can figure it out. And if you can't, you won't have a job. But if we thought you couldn't, we wouldn't promote you. Just like super matter of fact. Chuck was always like really matter of fact. And so like that was kind of though where I fell in love with publishing too because I was, I'd never worked a catalog before really. And it was kind of like, okay, well, we have a few of these like Sammy Khan songs.

He wrote, come fly with me. but like I have five songs in her catalog and let me see how many covers have come fly with me I can find and then I can help Sammy earn more money if I can pitch other versions of his songs like you know, Skaw Natra the ska version of Franks.

And it was like it opened up a whole new world and it really helped me understand the value of like how do you keep a song alive whether it was something that was like contemporary and trying to like pay hair, you know, pop a roach up with this skate video company because I thought that would be a good demographic to connect them with or like Rufus Wainwright for something else or, you know, getting a birds song and a Coors ad. I was like, oh, this is an opportunity for more people

to hear these songs. And like, I never learned how to do sync traditionally, you know, like a lot of people that are sync executives kind of like move through that world, which was cool. But I like I didn't. So I just got really scrappy. Also what's great about the names that you just have when you have poperoach and the birds and you know, Sammy Khan is like these are so different. And if you're in the A&R world, you're probably finding five writers that are relatively the same or five bands that might even tour together.

But it's unusual to be able to find, you know, or five rappers or five, whatever. It's like you tend to, especially in that era, you're really trapped in the aisles and stores, and you're probably stuck doing, working with the same kinds of songs with the same kinds of artists. Even if it's alternative rock and they're all different in their own space, it's still one genre. And you just named three artists or writers that would never meet in that. the real world. None of those people would ever interact with each other. You'd never have Rufus writing a song with, you know, with Papa Roach, but both of them have value in their music. And so as a sync person, it's exciting because then you can kind of, you really can

appreciate and learn to appreciate different genres in a way you wouldn't in almost any other part. Yeah, you have to. I had to. I was like, okay, even if I don't like this thing here, Who would? It has value. There is value here. Like, wait. How do I help? And it like, it like reminded me of making mixtapes, right?

Like, that was really what I was doing. And it was, it was funny at the time, though, because, you know, it was pre, you know, internet, anything. So if, like, a music supervisor I talked to was like, I'm trying to replace this song because it won't clear. I couldn't just call up the song online. I had to like go to Tower Records, buy the album, listen to the song on the album, and then go through my catalog. And it just like was an incredible, I like fell in love with it. Billy Strayhorn wrote Take the A-Train.

Like all the, like just, you know, Lush Life, like all of these songs. And like just digging in and learning their stories, I was just like, this is incredible. And I, you know, I have been so lucky Ross. I have had two jobs, three, if you count Warner Chapel, which I fully think you can count, where I'm like, I would never leave. I will be here forever. And then DreamWorks got sold. So I went back to Universal, which we could talk about.

Yeah, I was going to add. No, I mean, that's an interesting thing to walk back into, to go back to your previous employment and then work there for a few years. It's a different. It was different. It was, yeah. Did Universal buy DreamWorks or did DreamWorks sell? So this was a total.

It was like before all the funds and banks that you see now, but it was sort of like that. It was like some sort of company that wasn't in music. It was like dimensional, I think it was called. That bought Dreamers by left first. And I said to Chuck, so sad. I'm like, I just, I'm like so in the groove. I love what I'm doing. Chuck was retiring again.

And I said, Chuck, like, you get to retire now. Having this experience, DreamWork was like a family. It was amazing. We worked really closely with the record label, but didn't have all the same stuff. But when we did have, you know, crossover, we got to work together very well. And I said, this is like the best job ever. Like, how do I chase this? And it goes, I don't know, kid, doesn't get better than this.

So, I'm like, thanks, Jeff. It's hard to explain, like that family vibe and a business when you, when you hit that stride, it's really hard to imagine, you know, where it's no longer this employment, but it becomes a place where it's like semi-friend, semi-work, and you just kind of go and enjoy your day because you're working on stuff is hard to beat that. And going to Universal. And a quick shout out to Billy Strayhorn, who, for those who don't, know. I think he's one of those classic writers. He did all the Duke Ellington songs for an era. Fascinating individual. His role in jazz music in that era is really unique. And he has a unique personal life that I think people should dive into. But that's another thing. So you go to Universal. And you said, well, we don't really have to talk about that. Why? Oh, I just don't want to like, I don't know, like hog the whole thing talking about my, well, we can.

I mean, I've just had lots of stops along the way. Well, I think what's, you know, when I talk to songwriters, I look at their discography a lot. And one of the things I note a lot with writers and the further in the interviews that we've gotten, the more I ask questions about the down times. You know, what happens between the hits? And your career has had jump here, jump there, jump there, but it seems like three-year contract kind of things, and you've moved in like, it's, it's, there are certain writers who've been able to curate their discography. And like you

were saying, you know, even at DreamWorks where you didn't, you know, where do you, it felt so good. Why would you, you know, some of those jobs you wouldn't leave, but it feels very curated. You went from that, another three-year stent somewhere. Then you go to Universal for three years. before you make the jump to songs where you kind of like take the risk, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think like, so DreamWorks would have been longer if it hadn't been sold, right? And I do like to get, I've learned a lot of British terms from working with Guy and some of my other colleagues, like to get stuck in as long as I feel like I'm learning, you know, right? So I go back to Universal as a sync executive. And there were some great things about that, too.

You know, I learned that for me at the time, being at a big company was probably not where I wanted to end up. And so when Matt Pink has called me, and this is like super serendipitous too. So Matt Pink is own songs was my boss and my partner and the owner. And so he, this is again, like just how you know, people you know, he had gone to a party. like a New Year's party and had told people at the party that he was looking for somebody who could build his sync team

but kind of had a broader background. Like not a lot of people that have it. Anyway, so he met this guy at the party who I had been pitching music to because he was like, I worked in ad agency. And I had been pitching music to him at his ad agency and literally I was the only one that John knew that worked in all media. Like a lot of people like just pitched to ads or just pitched to TV.

And because I'd been at DreamWorks and it was small, I like knew all sorts of people. And so he recommended me to Matt. He's like, oh, she's the only person I know that does all these things. And Matt and I just really hit it off. And, you know, he was like, what would you build? How would you build it if you were, if you're building from scratch? And I was just talking to him about how, you know, things need to work together. And all the departments should be like there were no departments at songs. There were like two people. But like in an ideal world, like everybody's really understanding what each other does. It's really based on relationships. This is really, this is not sales. It's relationships. And it's listening well. And it's providing a high level of service. That's really what we're talking about. And, um, Once he got to know my background a little bit more, he's like, you know, you could help. Ron Perry was at songs already in New York.

Ron was our other partner and was there before me. And so he was just like, we need somebody to run West Coast and build a same team. And it was like such an incredible opportunity for me. I was really thinking a lot about what was next. universal was a wonderful learning experience where I met really great people and amazing writers, learned how to work in a bigger system. But I was thinking a lot about what was next because I knew it wasn't going to be my forever place the same way I felt like DreamWorks was going to be. And somebody gave me really, really good advice. And I really wish I could give them credit.

I don't remember who it was. And I feel jerky because of that because I wish I could. And this person said to me, don't think about what you want your next job to be. Think about how you want it to feel. And I was like, huh, okay. And when I met Matt Pinkis and I was talking about what I wanted to build, I was like, I want to build a place that feels like a team. I really, really want to feel like or working together towards like one goal. I want to feel like it's not, we're not competing against each other.

We're working with each other on behalf of the songwriters. And, you know, we did that. We did that. And I felt like, I felt like Matt was going to be supportive of that. And he's like, let's build. I love to build. And frankly, even at Warner Chapel, that was one of the things that really drew me towards the chapel job is like, how do you evolve this incredible place with fantastic songwriters

and copyrights to that like next place. And so that building piece is always really important to me. And that's what was, Ross. It was like if we could build it to a place where it would feel really good to be there, like that was kind of the point. And then the goal at songs was to help our writers write songs for a living and, you know, not have to have day jobs, right? Like that was the goal.

Yeah. And, you know, I've known Ron for a bit. and there's as a partner in A&R stuff, there's probably the casting of the three of you. And I don't, I don't really know Matt very well. But the casting of the three from what I know of Matt is brilliant because you guys don't do the same thing. And it wasn't redundant.

You had somebody who could bring in the artists and the writers that, probably shouldn't have gone to songs on its face value of like competing with the universals of the world you know and and i think like you know by the time i was coming up and i would meet these songs writers and i know you have some people in your a and r staff that were at songs you know that the whole process of um watching the quality of writers and artists that you guys were able to procure was really impressive. It seemed like, it seemed so hands-on.

But, you know, when I look at how there were, you know, a few hundred writers and it wasn't a huge staff, how were you guys able in a small company to get so many writers, such quality artists, and maintain the family, vibe within the writing and writers and the publishers? Well, I think, gosh, it's something that we're really proud of too. And you're right.

Like both Matt Ron and I did different things and were interested in different things and appreciated what we all brought. So that's why I think it like works so well for so long. We were in it together for 12 years. And again, like I went to left. So it's like such a, I'm very grateful for. so much. I think, you know, for us, it was sort of about building community. You know, at the very beginning of songs, we had a few hardcore bands because Matt had relationships in that scene.

He comes from playing in hardcore bands and had a record label previously. And I called the bands that I booked in the 90s. And I was like, hey, guys, on a publishing deal? Like, we needed writers on our roster. I mean, I'm still really close with a few of them to this day. And, you know, they really built the foundation of like, of, of what songs was. Like, there would be no Lord or, you know, Diplo or the weekend at songs, I believe, if there wasn't the album leaf and Oslo and, you know, Evan Brow and some of these guys, like, you from the very beginning.

Like they, and they were there and, like, we're part of it. And they felt like they were part of it. And so, you know, as the company got bigger, even though we never got that big, you know, we really, like this concept that we have at Warner Chapel now, it's Creative Services Team, which kind of does something different than I did at songs, but the concept started at songs because we're like, okay, a few years in, my gosh, probably seven years in or so, we started to sign, you know, some really significant writers. And, you know, we were also lucky because a lot of the mistakes we made because, gosh, you know,

everyone makes mistakes, right? You just have to learn by fixing them in the moment. And that was like incredible training, too. It's like, oh, oh, there's not nobody else to rely on, right? It was just us. So if we like fuck something up, we had to learn how to fix it. And I think, like, we had worked through so many of those gaps by the time we started to sign really big writers that we were competing with the majors against, that things were, like, really smooth. So we had a Tom DeSabia, back to Tom DeSabia again, he came on board to help us build out our creative services team. The idea for creative services came from a woman named Alison Rizinski, I think is at Red Bull now, which she's so. super, super smart girl and she worked really closely with the writers and was like, what about the writers that are not going to be getting in the pop rooms? Like, what do we do for them? Like, how do we,

what do we do? How do we keep them engaged? And so we sort of like had this other, you know, group of people that would really work with the writers that, you know, we're not going to be making big, huge records. And it, and it worked really well. So Ron was able to be. And, you know, to without having to worry, go and like kind of do the things that he does so well. He's super talented. And then some of like the indie rock and alternative rock bands and like smaller kind of indie writers that we had signed over the previous seven years weren't getting lost because there were people that were looking after them. And so we would sort of do these writers forums that you and I were talking about a little bit before where we would, um,

teach people how to, I'm going to say write for sync. That's not really what I mean. What, what music supervisors were looking for in the synchronization world to teach them at least, like if they were stuck in a session or working on an album and needed some inspiration, like here are some things that people look for. Or if you want to do something off the cuff, like do a demo, we know that, we know that music supervisors will look for this type of music. you know, but what happened in those writers forums is you'd get some of the guys that were signed at the very beginning. And then you would have people that were much bigger names come to. And they would all feel like they were part of the same community.

I remember when one of our writers, you know, we had a bunch of these writers write songs for one of the Twilight soundtracks. And I think like 30 writers paired up to write songs for the soundtrack. And it was cool because they experiment right with each other and we created a nice little community. And one of the songs got chosen. And one of my biggest like personal wins, I think, business personal wins, I should say, was that the rest of the group felt like they could do it too. Even though their song wasn't chosen, they're like, one of us got their song chosen. And that's a really big deal.

So we spent, I guess, Ross, to answer your question more succinctly, we spent a lot of time building community. And because we built community, our writers knew each other. And so it wasn't, there wasn't as much reliance. We were always there if our writers needed us, I'd like to think. But the writers also knew each other to the extent that they were interested in that, right? I mean, not everybody is going to be interested in that. But I would say the vast majority of writers, like really leaned in to the idea of kind of like knowing, knowing each other. I think the Warner Chapel writing camps have been really, I know some of those have been going on for a minute now,

but that really sort of, as far as major publishers, they seem to be a leader in bringing writers from different genres together in a place that's enjoyable to spend, you know, a few days or a couple weeks if you're crazy enough. You know, it's like, that, that helps. I guess, you know, the sale of songs was so public. Yeah. There are, there's a blessing and curse attached to that.

Like, one is it's amazing that that song sold and did so well, but it's probably slightly vulnerable when you see those kinds of things. Was there ever a part of you that was like, you know what, I'm just going to go right off in the sunset and just like, and call it quits after this? Because you go from just when you're like, you could probably cap your career at the end of songs. Well, that was the plan, Ross.

You then go somewhere. Like, this is nuts. Like, I didn't want to do anything else. And our plan wasn't really to sell it until it became irresponsible not to consider that. Yeah, right. You know, and that was something that was really a struggle for me. It's a really a struggle for me. Um, you know, again, like, it would have been a responsible not to do it, but then unwinding from that was like a lot harder than I expected. And to your point, it's like, I'm me. What about all our fucking writers? Like how they feel? Like, oh my God. I felt. But then I felt like I couldn't have big feelings about it because really, who gives a shit about me? Like, I made money off it. I was a partner. Yeah. It just like felt like really conflicted.

And I just felt really not good. And it was really, really hard to disengage, frankly. And I didn't think about, I did think a lot about taking a break. I was like, oh, God, I can't. Like, I just, somebody was like, oh, start songs again. I'm like, no, I'm not going to chase that. So the one thing I felt really strongly about was that I was not going to try to chase songs or do songs 2.0.

I felt like it was so special. And we had like such a great relationship between, the three of us, to your point, all of us kind of doing what we wanted to do within, within that. You know, and as the company grew, we really took on more, you know, obviously, we took on more, right? Like, Matt was doing a bunch of, like, he was on the NMP board, right? And, you know, Ron was, like, really leaning into the pop world. And I was working on a lot of, like, just, like, almost like the heart of the business, like, how it all worked together and, you know, building the different, building out, like, the business

with my partners too and, you know, trying to keep that community and heart intact. And so, you know, to be honest with you, like what I really thought is like definitely not chasing songs and definitely not going to a major, like, no way. And because I'd had, you know, those experiences before. When the Winter Chapel opportunity came up, you know, I was talking to John Platt about it because John was running Warner Chapel at the time. What was really compelling was that, you know, Warner Chapel is not as big as Sony or universal. I felt like there was the possibility to really double down on some of the service,

some of the things I loved about songs. And I felt like there was an opportunity to build. You know, John was kind of like, look, let's take a look. Let's partner together here. I'd love for you to come in and be my number two and like, just take a look around and see how we can, like, evolve the business. Like, I just, you know, I need some help. And, you know, he really took a chance. I mean, we didn't know each other previously, by the way. I think some people are like, oh, you guys knew each other for years. And we, we had met. during the song sale process and really connected. And I called him when the sale was sort of public to say, like, how did you tell your writers you were leaving Sony? Because I got to call my

writers. And we had this, like, really lovely conversation about it. And so the opportunity to come chapel, I thought, gosh, you know, if I come in at such a senior level, maybe I can actually had value. Maybe I can make real change. Maybe I can make it feel back to that feeling thing. Maybe I can make it feel the way I want. And so that's why I took that. That's why I took the job. And obviously, it sort of changed on announced that you're sleeping like two months after I started, which was quite a surprise. I did not know that. You know, I got paired up with Guy Mute and got elevated and he and I are not co-chairs. And it was like total whirlwind time. But, you know, I think it's important to know during that. I was lucky enough to be able to just really talk to Steve Cooper, who's our boss.

And even Len Blavadnik, who owns Warner Music Group, about like what I love about publishing. And I just thought, God, you know, if they're not interested in it, then I'm going to piece out. Like, really, this is not, there's no point. Like, what is the point if they are not interested in what I love? And, you know, they endorsed that. And when I met Guy, Guy and I hadn't met before. And Guy and I just totally connected over the love of the songwriter. He and I have both been publishers almost entire careers. And we love it. And so it was just, we only met a couple of times before, I think, both of us were like, we can do this. Oh my God. And now we're almost four years in together, three and a half, I think.

And it's pretty remarkable. We have very different styles, different backgrounds, obviously both coming from creative, but different parts, right? Different parts of the world. We have not ever, I'm going to knock on wood now, but I'm not been aligned. We've maybe sometimes had different ideas on how to get to a certain place, but we trust each other and we like each other, even more importantly. And it's been so much fun being able to try to, you know,

work together and, you know, hopefully, you know, help evolve the business. I think you mentioned something earlier, Ross, that I was just sort of thinking about that I think is kind of important for me to bring up here, which is like the music publishing business in 1999. It's really different than now. And sometimes I have to check myself a little bit because I've always felt like I've been pretty progressive. In fact, it's songs, especially at the beginning when I was, you know, doing a lot of synchronization work myself. People at majors would get really pissed because I was much more flexible on like negotiating. And I always think about adding value. What does that mean? It's not always about a dollar amount. Sometimes it is. Sometimes the value is in the

Sometimes the value is in the demographic. Sometimes the value is in the relationship. It is not a cookie cutter business and it shouldn't be. So how do we think about where the value lies? And I think, you know, even relatively recently as the business almost like is evolving quicker and quicker and quicker rate in front of us, I kind of caught myself when I was talking to one of our catalog writers who still, active, but we have, we have their catalog too. And he was complaining about a syncope. And I talked to our syncs he and made, made sure that, you know, we were all lines and everything.

And I'm just like, I don't want to be the person that's saying, like, get off my lawn. We got to hold on to the way things used to be. Like, I've never been that person. So to be that person now would be a problem. But the business is evolving so much more quickly. And so I said to this writer, I was like, listen, you want to have worked together a really long time. We trust each other. I would not have told you this in 2017. But I'm telling you this now. If you want to keep your songs alive, this is one of the things you're going to have to consider. This is the way it's going. It does not mean I'm devaluing, suggesting you devalue your copyrights. I'm suggesting you look at what the value is right now in 2022. And that's something that I have to make sure I continue to think, about too. Like, where does the value lie? What makes sense? What's worth a compromise and what's worth really sticking to our guns? I mean, you and I've talked a lot about that in the NMPA, right? You know,

what does it mean? What does the future look like? And I just think that that's like a very, very important thing. Like, I always want to be checking myself on that, but the business is changing so much more quickly than ever did before. Yeah, you use both the words value. and worth and those are different things. And in songwriters and copyrights and in your career path, those are different things. And learning which things to work on may be more, I should say, like, the money aspect along with value and worth is very different. You know, sometimes it's worth doing.

Sometimes there's more value in doing something regardless of how much money is. it may make you just full stop. Because it's not, this is not, I used this terms earlier in regard to something else, but this is like not a linear business. Yeah. And publishing similarly,

it's like, this is not how it works. So we really have to think about, like, what does it mean to be a songwriter now? You know, how do we make sure that we do what's best by our songwriters? What are we thinking about? how are we keeping these catalogs alive? And, you know, obviously, like in the marketplace, there's funds and there are people buying catalogs for, like, creating multiples and all the stuff.

And, you know, it's just interesting because Guy uses this sort of analogy a lot. And I think it sums it up really nicely because, you know, you can buy the garden. But do you know how to tend the garden and do you know how to grow the garden? Right? Yeah, exactly. And I think that, like, there is a very big difference between all of those. And I also think what's great about publishing in some ways is that people are actually starting to value, like, understand its value. Yeah.

Although what's sort of not early is it's not the way it may have been, you know, 20 years ago, like a piece of fine art, you can hang it on the wall and it will just appreciate. There's content coming from everywhere. there's more music being released all the time. If we want these songs to stay evergreen, then we need to actually do the work to keep them alive and to grow them. And that means something different in 2022. You know, even when I signed a Warner Chapel, the doors were closed.

I've talked about that before. Like there wasn't the community mindset, you know, until until Platt came in. And there's a, the people who are running the, majors now have a totally different concept. You know, what you see with, what you see with Jody, what you see with Platt and what you see with you guys is a whole other kind of community that it is, you know, it's just different now than it was then. So even the way things are being run is very different. But you know what, though? Like, we all love songwriters. Yeah. And we're all publishers.

Yeah, but that was different. That should have been the same comment then also, you know, 20 years ago. And it wasn't that. It was like, it was a lot more like I am, there was a lot of ego attached to the publisher as if they wrote the song. And that feels like that's the people who are running the show now don't have that same ego that I feel like we had at that point when I talked to executives. It was, there was a lot of, look what I.

published and not necessarily look what my songwriters wrote and that's different. And on that note, we're going to go to this next segment, which is five for five. I'm going to list five things. You just tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head. We're going to start with USC football. Oh, great offense this year, but I don't know about the D. We'll have to see. Excited, excited about the new coach.

Yes, no doubt. The next one, we're going to go with Matt Pinkis. Fantastic. Wonderful friend and great boss. Smart guy. Ron Perry. Super talented. Super, super talented.

My God, these are great. Like, I love my partner. This is awesome. By the way, I love being a partner. Can you tell I had partners at songs? And I love having a partner at Chapel. It's wonderful. It's great.

Guy Moot. He's my co. He's the best. I'm super happy to be doing this with him now. Like, we talk about it all the time. Like, it's really, you know, I think it would be hard to do either one of our jobs on our own. And we're both really grateful to sort of have each other. Warner Chapel Music, publishing. Ah, history. Incredible foundation. Wonderful songwriters. Can I tell a quick side story? So Chuck Kay, who was like, you know, my mentor and I have all sorts of other stories to tell to talk, to tell about him another time. But he once ran Warner Publishing and he bought Chapel to make it Warner Chapel. And he was the first person I called.

when I got this job. First person I called when I came to chapel and the first person I called when I got the co-chair job. And it was like the coolest moment of being able to share with him that I was now in this role, sort of like the role that he had.

It's pretty great. Wow, that's amazing. That really is amazing. Well, thank you for doing this. I know, like, I get to hear you speak often in the NMPA board meetings and I always look forward to hearing your thoughts, which is also a very strange sentence. But I like hearing when you speak because you carry a lot of weight, but you speak

softly and it, you know, there's something, and I've, I said this in Golnars and, you know, Jody's too. There's something about the women on that board are not the smartest women in the room. They're the smartest people in the room. And it feels like we're in, we're moving the industry in a safe, exciting way right now where as somebody who's, you know, one foot in the business aside and one foot out. I get excited when I'm in a room where I'm like I'm I'm witnessing a lot of people who are so smart who are representing and advocating for songwriters. It feels like a safe future. I know we're fighting for a lot of things right now, but we're having a lot of wins in the last five years. And a lot of it is due to this new culture that is, um,

is really running the music publishing business. And it's just exciting. It's exciting to be a writer at Chapel. It's exciting to be on the NMPA board because I know that we're, I know that in five, 10 years we're going to be appreciative of the work that people like you are doing now.

So I just appreciate you. And, you know, thank you for doing the podcast. Oh, you're welcome. I appreciate you. And I appreciate the board. And I like, check this out, though. You mentioned Jody and Golnar.

How cool is it that the three of us couldn't be more different? There's not like a profile for you to be, you know, a woman in music or a person in music. You have to be one way. Like I just think that's really, really important. But people just sort of follow their own path and like ask lots of questions and try to stay passionate. Like I love my job. How cool is that? Not everyone gets that.

Yeah. Totally. Well, thank you so much for what you do, and we'll have to do a follow-up in a couple years when we can see where Warner Chapel is then. Sounds good to me. There you go. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week.

I'm Ross Golan, signing off.