And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 167: Jimmy Napes

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Today’s guest is an English songwriter and record producer. He has won a number of awards, including an Academy Award, a Golden Globe Award, 3 Grammy Awards, and 2 Ivor Novello Awards. He is best known for his work with Sam Smith (“Unholy” "Stay with Me", "Writing's on the Wall", "Lay Me Down", "Too Good at Goodbyes", "Dancing with a Stranger"), Disclosure ("Latch", "You & Me", "White Noise", "Magnets"), Clean Bandit ("Rather Be")‚ Stormzy ("Crown") and Taylor Swift ("Christmas Tree Farm"). Our guest also has songwriting and producer credits with artists including Alicia Keys, Khalid, Normani, Kano, Dave, FKA Twigs, Ellie Goulding, Mary J. Blige, James Bay and more. And The Writer Is… Jimmy Napes! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey, what's up? It's Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update. Ticketmaster has canceled the general public sale of tickets for a Taylor Swift's tour due to extraordinarily high demands.

Downtown Music Holdings has invested in tech startup, Bamper. The U.S. subscription TV network Hulu has added six new channels to its live TV service from music video platform Vivo. BMG has struck a deal to acquire a Grammy. Award-winning singer-songwriter Harry Nilsson songwrites. Primary Wave has acquired copyrights to hit Whitney Houston songs as part of a deal for about 60 songs written by songwriters, Shannon Rubicam and George Merrill of American pop music duo Boy Meets Girl. ADA Worldwide, the independent label and artist services arm of Warner Music Group, has

appointed Mary Lynn Drexler as head of business and legal affairs. Warner Music has promoted Bob Workman to the dual role of of SVP International Brand Partnerships, Warner Music, and general manager WMX, UK. Widely respected British music executive, Zion Richards, has joined Robo Magic Live as vice president. Blue Raincoat Music and Chrysalis Records has appointed James Meadows to the position of Senior Vice President of Marketing. Artist management company YMU has appointed Mike Cadillus as executive manager and head of radio. The B-Port Group, a portfolio of music companies for DJs and producers, has made key appointments in its management. Sony Music Entertainment Korea has signed Monsta X member IM to help develop his career as a solo artist globally.

Rich the Kid has signed with RCA. Cautious Clay has signed with One Phoenix Live. Tay B. has signed with Giant Music. Combustion Masters has added Peyton Smith to their label roster. Eliza Rose signs to Wasserman Music. Downtown has signed a global publishing deal with rising jazz star Masego. Buck's music group has signed Glastonbury Best Demo winner Tom Weber. Danny Dwyer has signed with Seasons Music Group.

A big thank you to Charlotte Isidore of Megahouse for gathering today's news. Now tune in for a new episode of Anne The Writer is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. host Ross Golan. Today's smash writer is behind some of the biggest worldwide hits to come out of the UK over the past decade. He has won several awards, including a Golden Globe Award, three Grammy Awards, two Ivor Novello Awards, and even an Academy Award.

With all that in the past, you'd think this guy would be done and dusted. But no, he's never stopped. Of course, he's written with many. But his relationship with the great Sam Smith is legendary. And in fact, they are now currently riding the highest of his waves all the way from the United Kingdom. This family man always seems to be back on top where he is right now. And the writer is Jimmy Naples. Oh, wow. That was so cool, man.

Thank you. I listen to this podcast all the time. So to hear, like, have my own intro is just the coolest thing ever. Yeah, I love that. I mean, first of all, welcome to Los Angeles. We haven't been doing a ton of these in person, so it's good to, you know, to see you in the flesh. This is a trip to be here.

Yeah, it's nice that we could do it in person because, yeah, that lockdown life was not that much fun. Yeah, totally. So last time, we've worked together at least once, but I think of that also in Los Angeles at a, I think it was a Gwen Stefani camp. That's right, yeah. That sounds about right.

That's right. It was with Benny, wasn't it? Yeah. And there was a house and it was quite exciting all of that. It was really cool. Do you think that there's, like when that writing camp was at a house in Laurel Canyon, and it was a very California style writing camp. Yeah.

What are the differences between writing camps in the, the UK and writing camps here. Do people even do writing camps in the UK? I remember that experience was mind-blowing for me because I'd never done anything like that before. And I remember arriving and there was just like a house full of people and I just had never, I'd never been in a camp or anything like that. But it was so cool. My eyes were just like wide open at how, you know, you just saw a different way of doing things. Because I just always like worked one-on-one with whoever it was I was writing a song with, you know, and it was just a massive learning curve for me because I was like okay

this is so cool everyone like collaborates in different rooms and throws ideas together and it was just a whole new way of working that I'd never been a part of and it was really really awesome do you feel like writing one on one

has you know to me the more people you have in the room the more vanilla song gets because everyone ends up having to agree on whether a song is good or not but then And it's like, you know, if you write one-on-one, then it's a lot harder and the songs may end up way left of center. And it doesn't, you know, because both of you guys might be like, this is cool and it's really not.

I think it just depends on the people, right? If everyone is talented and humble, I think that's the key thing, then it always turns out great. And if sometimes, yeah, I guess the too many people in a room thing, only, that's only, that's only a bad thing when I don't know it can just be pulled in too many different directions can't it and then the song kind of falls apart and you're like ah there was

something there for a minute and now it's gone somewhere completely different yeah and also I like the process of editing and I feel like you lose that in I I love camps because you get you move quickly your mind moves at a different speed and you

know but I also like the idea of being able to locked down with someone and tweet. Yeah, I think there's definitely something to be said about the honesty and the personal touch of writing with the artist versus you can't, it's hard to get the real like story sometimes or, you know, exactly what someone's going through in their life

when there's more people in the room. You know, it becomes harder for them to open up and tell something really personal about themselves. obviously because you just don't want to share that with, you know, more than if you don't really trust the people in the room, you know. So there's definitely something to be said for that. And those relationships where, you know, often artists just have those one or two people, you know, that they just really can talk to, you know, not even write with, but just talk to. And that's super important. Well, let's, I want to know more about your story.

We've known each other for a while. but the best part of this podcast for me is that I actually get to ask the questions that you wouldn't in this session. 100%. I mean, so let's start from the beginning. So tell me about your birth. How did that go? That's so funny. Well, my mom and dad met on Broadway, which is kind of crazy.

So my mom's from the Midwest of America. Where? Kansas City. Okay. So do you have American citizenship? Yeah. Yeah, I do. and my dad is from London

and they met on Broadway in the 80s they were both working on the musical cats which is kind of amazing as actors as musicians so my mom was a dancer she was in the original cast on Broadway and my dad did the stage design so he built the set

and he would do all of that cool stuff he'd build models and he's a real creative amazing guy So that's how they met And then they moved to My mom moved to London to be with my dad And had me And yeah that was where I was born

Crazy So do you grow up thinking that Because obviously there's a lot of musicality In your family One way or the other You know I guess I've always said this about Having worked in New York

for theater stuff, the worst dancer on Broadway can cite read music. Let me repeat that. The worst dancer on Broadway knows more about music than most of the people in L.A. who are professional musicians. No, it's insane. My mom is so talented. She can cite read music. She can dance, play, everything.

She's just like, yeah, she can... I think that's like... It was kind of part of how you had to do it. You had to really prove yourself and be talented in all of these things. fields, you know. So my mom took piano lessons and she's still like way better piano player than I'll ever be, you know. She's just like can play anything and yeah, she's such an inspiration. Do she still dance? Yeah, can't stop her. You can't. She's, she's a force of nature. My mother, she's a, she's the life and soul of every party, you know, and my house was kind of like that growing up. There was always, there was always a party. Do brothers and sisters? Yeah, so I've got a younger sister. Jess and I've also got a half brother and sister,

Julian and Elise, who were older, same dad. And yeah, like my house was just, it was so much fun. Like, that's what I remember. It's just like the pubs would close in London. And then my mom would be like, right, everyone back to our house. And there'd be people playing music and, you know, artists. And just, it was always just like endless music in my house. which was just the coolest environment to grow up it.

How much of your childhood do you remember being part of the theater versus part of that sort of music? That's a really good question. Quite a lot, actually, when I think about it, because I hated theater growing up because I was like, I would literally go to every show. I'd sit and just wait for my mom to finish, you know, so she'd be on stage.

and I'd be just waiting backstage and I hear the same songs every night and I was just like, oh my God, this is just the worst thing ever. It's crazy. But it's obviously, you know, it was a really important part of my upbringing and my family and stuff,

but I was in my mind was definitely like, right, I don't want to do that, you know? And I think especially because, you know, yeah, I just always, I tried to shy away from that because it was, it just i just didn't enjoy it it was like too much of a good thing that's funny did you ever have you met andrew lord webber i assume you have i have you know

did you say thank you for like introducing your being the matchmaker it's pretty crazy yeah i have yeah we actually have had a laugh about that to be honest um uh and yeah i mean it's pretty funny he called me about the cats actually i think it was like a full circle thing um and uh Yeah, I mean, that movie was, it didn't work out, did it? It didn't work out. Man, I was with Jason Derulo right before it came out. And I just said, man, your life's about to change because this movie's going to come out. And it's like, it's going to be the biggest thing that's ever happened.

Yeah. I really, like, I hadn't seen anything yet. Yeah. But I definitely, I missed that one. shout out you know Jason and Andrew so when

when you grew up around it there's a difference between people playing the same song every night versus people who create music the strange thing is like what's cool about musicals is like it's the tour comes to you it's like

it's like you watched you know watching your mom on stage and doing that, it's like watching somebody who's on a, especially with like major shows. It's like watching someone on tour with Taylor Swift or

anybody. And those are huge shows and they cost a crazy amount of money and it's like a full production. It's just that the tour comes to them. It's like you watched a touring artist, but you didn't watch them on tour. They watch every

their crowd changes but the show stays in the same place. Definitely. I guess that's The great thing about if you create a musical, you know, it's such a hard thing to do, but if you get it right, you know, it just you can roll it out, you know, it goes everywhere and people come together and they've, you know, the team maybe changes the people that are actually putting it on or building it or, but, you know, if it can just roll out, as you say, all around the world. What was the moment where you started actually playing music yourself?

So I kind of like, this is a bit blurry for me because it was always. music in my house. There was always a piano in my house and I would always just play it without really thinking about, oh, you know, I'm sitting down to like concentrate on an instrument or I'm going to play the piano. I just would just like, I would just hit it, you know? It would just be like, which was so cool. I think it's really important. I'm trying to do that with my kids now. Just like leave instruments around, you know? So it's not like, oh, you know, I want to, I want to learn how to do it. It's almost just part of the furniture. And if you're excited about it, without putting it in their handle forcing it on them which is obviously not the thing to do but just that they're there you

know and if you want to pick it up and make some noise go for it totally did you ever have lessons i i started some lessons when i was about five or six and i got bored really quickly i really hated it to be honest i mean i definitely learned something but like the whole like sight reading music thing it just it wasn't it didn't feel fun to me it was like making like my funnest thing like kind of boring somehow what kind of music did you listen when you say there's always music in the house you know i guess in my head i'm thinking that everyone's singing show tunes because of that yeah there was not really a fair assumption no no there was that you know and they were like but you know my mom can play anything and sing like all the like standards

and, you know, that was really cool. And, you know, Christmas carols, a lot of that stuff in the house. And it's like, just singing around the piano was like a thing. And I guess Michael Jackson was a big one when I was like a kid. Like, listening, like, that bad record was like my life at that time. It was just the sounds of it. That was the first, like, pop music. I remember being like, oh, my God.

I just repeat it over and over again. And it was like just so incredible, the production and the songwriting. And I was just like, wow, wow, wow. Here's a question that made, I don't know the timing on this, but why go by Jimmy Naps and not? Yeah, my real name. James. Yeah. It's a really good question.

My real name is James Napier. I was actually like, I went to Sound College after I finished school. And what is that? It's like an engineering kind of thing where you learn how to, you know, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And I knew what I wanted to do, but I didn't know how to express it. So I was like, I don't want to go to university, but let me just do this kind of music course. Because at least it's in the same world of somehow how I can, where I want to get to. And it was actually fairly useless.

I didn't learn very much. And it was like a lot of like practical stuff about consoles and desks and signal flow and like that all of that stuff was really good. But I was just not very good at it. I just like learned enough to be able to like plug in the microphone to be able to like write a song, right? It's enough to know that it's enough to be dangerously ignorant. It's like to know to say, oh wait, we need to put compression on this. And then you look at a compressor, you're like, I'll just do a preset. Literally. But in answer to your question, there was a guy there and he kind of was, he was kind of taking the Mickey out of me.

He was like, he saw my name James Napier and he was like, James Napier, oh, Jimmy Napes, Jimmy Napes. And he was like, and everyone was kind of laughing. And I was like, you know what, that's kind of got a ring to it. And I just kind of owned it. And I started using it as like a little DJ name because I used to, that's how I started out as DJing. And so I used that as a little moniker. And then everyone just started calling me it all the time. and then that's just how that happened, which is really confusing. Does your mom still call you James? Yeah, of course.

Yeah. Okay, just want to make sure. What about your wife? James as well. Yeah. And your kids, they call you. They call me Daddy Stinky Pants. Also accurate, but different.

Exactly. Okay, so Daddy Sinky Pants. When you were in, you were saying that you were, that you obviously if you know you want to go to sound college then in in high school you started or at least junior higher high school you were like that that could be something i could do yeah when when was the switch of like of you know i don't really want any like i'm focusing class but man someday i could be what a dj was that the goal no i think like what was what kind of stood out to me

was i was in school and i went to like a good private school and everyone there was like kind of being funneled into being like a lawyer or a doctor or like a proper job, you know. Everyone was like doing real things and like doing applications for university to try and get into like Oxford or Cambridge. And people were like, I remember teachers coming up to me like, what, what application do you want to do? And I was just like, no. I was just like, nah. They're like, sorry what? And I was like, nah.

I just don't see myself doing that. I knew when I was 14 that I wanted to be a songwriter. And I... Are you tried writing a song of 14? Yeah. I'd kind of like always played the piano and I'd... Actually, my sister had a friend who wanted to be a singer. And so that was, it was around 12, 13 that I was like, I can do this.

Like I could be like the kind of host in a way, you know, and like help bring artists. And I didn't know I could, but that's naturally what was happening was like, like people were coming and hanging out and we were writing songs and it was so much fun and i just got the complete bug for it what was the first song it was a song called say you love me and uh it was like it was horrible obviously um but i how does it go i can't even it's like say you want me say you need me say that you love me it was like that kind of thing but i do remember like i was getting really how many songs exist right now where that you say say, oh, this is terrible.

And then you're singing it, but you're kind of like moving to it. And I see Joe out of the peripheral, like, bob in his head. It was horrible. But I do just remember being like, this is it. You know, I was like, this is what I want to do, like, 100%. And I remember saying to my dad, like, because, like, the school, he was sending me to, like, it costs money and stuff. And I was like, I was like 14. And I said, Dad, I don't want you to send me to the school anymore because it's a waste of money because I know what I want to do.

and this isn't helping. And he was like, I think he was a bit shocked, you know. But I had like genuine guilt about being at this like school, which was like really quite, it was a very good school. But knowing that it felt like a bit of a waste of time in a strange way. Were your parents encouraging or was there a part of them that was like, we really don't want you to follow? Because both of them being somewhat artists.

Yeah, it's a good question. Strangely, like they've always been so supportive. And also they almost didn't have. have a leg to stand on in terms of like you should get a proper job you know because neither of them did so that was quite helpful for me like i had i had some um you know i i definitely wasn't going to be forced into any avenue that didn't feel comfortable it almost felt more natural for me to be creative in some sense um than to do a proper job you know like all my friends almost the first time you wrote a song where it wasn't i mean at that time you think it's pretty

good. You know, when you're 12, you probably think it's pretty good. But there's some time where you write a song and other people think it's really good. So, like, I think it was about, I was about 16 and I started working with this guy who was like actually good. Like, he was actually like in a band that was successful and they'd just broken up and he kind of didn't know what he was doing. and a friend of my mum said, you know, that Donna's son is writing songs, why don't you go and hang out, you know, until he came over and we wrote this song

and it was actually pretty good. And I took it into school on like a cassette tape and was playing it to all my friends and they were like, this is sick, like, this is really cool. And it gave me a little confidence boost and people would like, can I get a copy of that? And I want playing it in their cars and stuff. And I was like, you know,

obviously still sucked, like, but for that level of where we were at, it had something about it, which was kind of cool. What was that song called? It was called I Need to Know. How did that one go? I can't do that one. I can't sing, but this guy had a great voice. Did you know him before when you say that it was a band?

I knew his music, yeah. He's in a band called Damage, and they were kind of, they had some, like, UK hits. And so I was just so excited, like, that any. that you know it was an amazing start I was always thinking like what is he doing here like like in my bedroom like surely he knows somebody better that he could be making music with than like this little kid that doesn't know what he's doing but you know he kind of gave me a shot and so like the man was pretty like did really well yeah they were like they they they had like some hit records like some really like records that I love um so yeah that was really cool and then I kind of was

my confidence was growing a little bit and I could I knew I could you you know, kind of hose people and I've always believed that I could, you know, make something, you know. And my dad said something that really stuck with me, which was cool. And he thought about this in a completely different way. But he's like, don't ever just stare at a blank space, you know, or a blank piece of paper. It's because his world's so visual. He's always just like, look, if you're trying to think of something you want to build, just throw something in it, like throw a matchbox, just make a start, and then you go, oh, you know what, that's, that's not right. You have to turn it this way around. And actually, if you put it like that, that's kind of cool because it casts

a shadow and then maybe, you know, you just start, do something. And that really stuck with me in a musical sense because, you know, as songwriters, it's kind of scary. You go into a room and nobody knows each other. It's like, the whole thing is much, it's psychological as well. It's like, how do you start, where do you start? And the answer is you just start somewhere, don't you as you know just have a conversation learn something about somebody and like every time something you know cool comes out of it

it's different every time it's this thing where like people start scrolling on social media looking for ideas or doing stuff like that and then I think you end up with this homogenized idea because everyone else is doing the same thing and people are all posting their highlights

and it becomes this it becomes difficult in a weird sort of way harder to have something that's unique versus if you just open a book, you know, and everyone has these coffee table books or things like that in their studios, and yet no one, no one ever opens that up. They just start scrolling on their phone. It's true, right? The number of songs that have been written because, I mean, I just heard a story about that watermelon sugar, Harry Stiles, they were looking for a lyric and it was in a coffee book or there was something that it just said it there,

you know, you have to ask those guys how that song was written. But that's exactly. what you're saying, you know, there's inspiration everywhere. So it's just about kind of like, yeah, just using it. Two things that you said that are really interesting. One is I really like that you describe writing with people as hosting them. Because I try to explain

to writers that are part of my publishing company. I always say, you know, you guys are in the service business. You're serving the artist and the artist is serving their audience. So if you can take some of that meta point of view, that your job is not to be

hey look at my skill set as a songwriter you have a shot but if you're here to try to show your musicality then you should go and do an artist project for that and then when you want to do the writing you're in the service business and so I love that you caught

hosting and I think I'm going to steal that where did that come from where you always you said like at 12 years ago I could host yeah it just felt like that you know because especially you're inviting someone into your space so it's like just on a very basic level, you know, you're making cups of tea, you're hosting. I've never really thought about it like that, but I think it's important to be a good host, you know, and to make conversation, you know, and to like get to know somebody.

And those are just basic human skills, but they're very much associated with songwriting. And I think if you can do that, then you make people feel comfortable. I've never really quite understood why people open up to me but it's been a really amazing thing because it's like I kind of feel like part therapist too as a songwriter and to gain people's trust

where they feel like comfortable with you enough to share their story is such a humbling amazing thing you know it's quite a precious thing so yeah I feel like yeah very very lucky that that's the case what about when you have to share a story who do you share your stories well you have you know that's the other thing you can't you have to meet

people halfway you know as a songwriter so relate to whatever that thing is if even if it's a bit scary i find that if you can tell a little bit of yourself give a piece of yourself into that story then that it just works to for everyone to really like be more invested in it and to you know perhaps talk that's bit further and get that more that most personal lyric out somehow, you know, you can't just let the artist, you know, in a way, it's a bit of a, it's kind of saying different, oh, so I've lost my train of thought with that. Well, you were talking about meeting halfway and sharing, like, finding yourself and the story with them while you're releasing things. But one of the other things you said that was fascinating

to me, which we found in other hits, songwriters that you said I can't really sing. No. You've released music though, so you're kind of Not really. It was like... But on the other hand, you know, what does that mean you can't sing? It just means that I don't like the sound of my voice, you know? It's like... And I also know that like people...

I've worked with so many amazing singers that I'm like I would always prefer to hear something I've written sung properly. you know and it's like there's no i also think there's an important thing with having no ego in that you know and just going would it sound better if so-and-so sang this yeah absolutely it would you know so it's like why would i try and sing it myself yeah well there must be you know being a uh uh creative is really interesting because i think there's a perception that you are especially on the songwriter producer side that you somewhere in there aspire

to be the one who's in front of the whatever the screen and in reality no this is a safe like if you're a great singer doesn't mean that you want to be singing in front of people 100% and then being in a studio

is a safe place to be to sing every day in front of people who are there to hear you sing and they'll edit you and all these things that you could sing all day and you don't have to worry about the stress of performing. Just like being a bad singer, it's like, this is also a safe place for you

to be creative and no one's going to judge how bad of a singer you are. 100%. I actually think it falls in the favor of the songwriter artist to be a bad singer because if you kind of just belt stuff out and it sounds horrible, but you know where you, you know, you hear melodies and you contribute them. But then the artist is also thinking, well, that's cool. The melody's cool, but I know it's going to sound a hell of a lot better

when I step up to the microphone. You know, that's a good thing. It's like, if you, if I could sing like Sam, you know, then at the end of the day, be like, well, it just should be, that's it. The artist would be like, well, I'm not going to beat that. Which is probably where John Legend found himself, right? Because he started as a songwriter, and there's that great story where he wrote ordinary people and he was going to give it to the black IPs.

And then he sang it, and they were like, that's your record. Like, there's no point in like, will I am trying to. I know what I mean? It was just like, no. And it's cool that they could see that. And that was the start of him being, like, believing him in himself as an artist. And I was like, oh, that's really cool. Yeah, some of that's confidence.

Obviously, I don't, you know, Gaga did it. And so did Julia Michaels. And a lot of songwriters where people said, hey, you should try this and do it. It also doesn't work often. More often than not, right? Hey, you should release this song. And it's like, you know, ordinary people was. a great song performed by a great singer but there have been great songs that have been performed by

great singers that haven't worked and then all of a sudden you're you're on tour for you know 18 months when you could have been in the studio I think for me it was never my ambition or dream which is quite rare I think a lot of people do start out as a writer to then kind of live that dream of getting on stage but I don't want to jump too far but there is a there is a time where you do release music so you're like where did that come from if you say that it never was yeah why did you do it you know what i kind of it was a weird time i was so many things being thrown at me because like things kind of went ballistic and like i we were winning all these awards and all this stuff i was having all these songs and to be honest with you it's just like there was just like loads of

record deals and people like throwing stuff at me and i was like like well you know what why not kind of thing but it wasn't like oh this has always been in my heart to do it you know like visualizing myself on the stage so i kind of dipped my toe into it and i was like very quickly was like you know what i like being the host it was like you know it was it was fun to try but i was very much i just really enjoy my role i really do genuinely and there's no like oh i need to my favorite thing in the world is going to like glastonbury festival and being in the audience

and listening to like big artists play my songs that's the coolest buzz I'll ever have like it's my favorite thing and being completely anonymous and just like but they're being like thousands and thousands of people that's the coolest

shit ever for me totally and I don't think people discuss enough when some when a songwriter is successful and has those moments, a lot of opportunities come their way. And there are books about the power of no.

There's a book called Essentialism. There are a bunch of these books that people should read about how to say no to things because we all get trapped in saying, man, this is a very privileged thing to say, but it often feels like, well, that's free money. Somebody's going to say like, we'll give you a shot at being an executive.

You see a lot of people becoming executives. You see a lot of people becoming a lot of things other than their vocation. 100%. And rarely do you have the guy who keeps their head down, or girl, it's not a gender thing, but somebody keeps their head down and just hustles being what they do. Yeah, but also it's okay to try things, you know. It's okay to, because you have to try things to know. Sometimes there's questions there.

You go, well, maybe what if I started a company, you know? And it's like, then you do it and you're like, oh, this is a lot more work than I thought it's not as simple as just, you know, I thought it was much easier than this. So you learn, you know, and then you kind of really find your way, you know, and you see where your strengths are and, you know, what you enjoy doing. And that's it. When you graduated from Sound University, I love that that's what it's called, there's still a break between. that and, you know, your first cut. You know, there's like, what did you do between

school and, you know, I suppose the Eliza Do Little album actually opened a lot of doors for a lot of people. I got to work with her right after that. She was like, you know, she was, you know, Roller Blaze was a big song. It kind of blew up.

So that, Eliza is my sister's friend that I talked about. So, no way. So that say you love me song was with Eliza. was the first song I ever wrote and I think she ever wrote. So we kind of really helped each other to like learn how to write songs and understand what it's like to make music. You know, we're just figuring it out as we went along. But she could sing great and I could play the piano a little bit and that was it. That's crazy. I've only had a few songs that really were specific to the UK.

Usually there were songs written here that did something there. But we did a song called Let It Rain. remember her being. I love that song. I just remember, you know, just loving that she, she knows who she is in a studio. And it was, you know, it's, you work with a lot of singers that don't necessarily have, who aren't sure who they want to be. And at the time, she was really sure who she wanted to be. So it was really fun to write. And that was my first cut I ever had was when she had a record deal and we wrote a thousand songs, but I got one cut on her album. I was kind of the guy who did all the work. And then, like, when she got signed,

there was, like, all the people that actually were good. And, you know, what was established. And so that was a big lesson for me in terms of, like, okay, like, I can really put all these hours in and still kind of, you know, it was just a tough thing. It was a humbling thing. How do you prevent that from happening? You can't, you know, that's the truth, but you just have to keep going.

So I got one cut, which was a great start, you know. That was like, I kind of in my head. was like I've made it now you know I've got a cut on a major label this is so exciting this is the start of something not made it but this is at least the start of what I want to be doing and if your goals to be a professional songwriter and you have a song out on a on a major label artist it was a big deal it was my absolute dream but then it was I came crashing back down to earth again because I didn't have any other cuts for like years after that And it was a really quite a challenging time, to be honest.

How did you, you know, when you graduate, you didn't even graduate, you said. You only did a year there. So you're telling your parents like, no, no, I want to do this, I don't want to be. Yeah. How did you not feel the pressure of regular life being? I did feel the pressure is the honest answer. Yeah. And there's a few moments like, like my mom took me to one side and was like, you know, I love you.

and this, but this, you should maybe start thinking about looking at some other things you could be doing, you know, like, because she just, if out of pure love, you know, and she just wanted to make sure that I was okay. But, you know, she could also see that I'm still living at home and I don't have any music coming out, and I'm trying hard, I'm DJing all the time, two, three nights a week. That's how you're paying your area.

That's how I paid, you know, just like, and just... Where were you DJ? All over London, anywhere, you know, It was just like, it was fun for a time. Did you feel like an agent who's helping you that? Kind of like an agent, but everyone like took all the money, you know. You get a hundred bucks. Yeah, literally 100, 100, 100, whatever.

But that's great for me, you know. I could do that for like one or two nights a week and be able to like eat and do basic things. But that was kind of became my life and it was like not felt like it wasn't really going anywhere. But it was. You know, I was doing my 10,000 hours and I was writing. songs all in between all of those things always, you know, obsessed and practicing and writing and just, you know, doing it, getting it wrong until you get it right, you know, a thousand, or a thousand shit songs. And then, you know, I was ready for when that moment came.

Yeah, but that's the key, right? It's not that, you know, it wasn't the specific song that you were writing in the thousand. It was that you were ready for when the wave came that you could continue at that pace it's not it's not that if you have that song that's a hit and you are not prepared to follow it up if that Eliza song becomes a worldwide smash and you are not ready

to follow that up you go into all these sessions and people don't want to work with you again because you can't handle that kind of uh especially when you're younger you can't necessarily handle that the pressure I think it's the best thing it's the best thing because it's like I was so

ready like I was so hungry that when I got that chance I was snapping their hand off you know I was like and also it's it's kind of informs how I am still it's like I also like can't let it go you know it's like I want to turn up to every session I want to you know it's just being hungry is so important you know you never always punctual professional you know just basic things where people are like well you know he he's this guy wants it you know that thing that goes a lot way. Yeah, there's something you said.

Being punctual is the lowest form of accountability. So if you're going to be a professional songwriter or anything, show up on time, show up early and read or do something outside, be the first one at the studio. I don't care about the people who are last there because at that point, everyone's done. So to be the first one there and the last one there, that's all that's fun. But be the first one there. I hate being late. It's like, I just, yeah, it's just, because I hate when people are late for me.

And there's just a level of respect. It's quite, maybe it's quite old school, but I just think it's the least you can do is turn up on time. Totally. How did you meet, you know, you had a couple songs come out with disclosure and all these things start happening at the same time. But here you are a DJ. Did you know them at all from the DJ scene or were you not at that level? Had you come across the album? No, no.

No, they, um, I knew of their music, but I met Sam before I met Disclosure. Okay. I just wasn't sure what the order. And I know the story, how you met Sam, but I'd love to hear it again, I'm sure. Yeah. It's a cool story. So I'm doing my thousand, or ten thousand hours. And I've got this friend called Elvin, and he's an amazing songwriter.

And I'm just a fan of his. And I used to go to his shows. And he was just amazing. his record never came out sadly it's like an absolute tragedy but it's one of those stories where the label the a andr changed and it but it was one of my favorite albums i still listened to it and he was on tour with adele so he was supporting adele at the shepherds bush empire and um sam smith was in the audience of of that show and loved elvin as well and basically became a fan of his

and was kind of heckling him and reached out to him on MySpace that's how long ago this was now and credit to Elvin Elvin wrote back and you know said oh I'm glad you enjoyed the show and Sam was like oh you know I'm a singer and Elvin was like well you know

if you ever have any music I'd love to hear it and that was it never heard anything I think Sam was about 16 at the time and then like two years passed three years past maybe and elvin and i are still writing songs together and we're working and working with some different artists nothing's quite hitting nothing's you know all unknown artists unsigned no one cares but we're just practicing and i'm learning and um we go to this gig in king's cross and it was a horrible gig i remember distinctly thinking it was just like the music was just so bad

and i was like what a disappointment what a massive waste of time but elvin and i had gone to see this show and we're on our way out and this kid just comes running up to elvin's like hey do you remember me i'm i was um we talked on my space i'm i'm sam i'm the singer and he's like yeah yeah yeah he says you never sent me that music and you know what i'm going to do it i'm going to do it this weekend and so he sam sang into their laptop this song called uh little sailor that sam had written by themselves and Elvin sent it to me and said, this is that kid that came running up and I was like, you've got to be kidding me.

It was the best voice I'd ever heard. It was like an absolute angel coming out of the speakers. I said, this isn't real. That can't be true. And Elvis, like, this is the person that came. And I said, well, can they come to the studio? Not the studio. Can they come to the house tomorrow?

And I wanted to, I wanted to. to almost prove that it was real because I didn't believe that the voice was just too good and Sam came and sang I said could you sing that song that you could you just sing it and Sam sat down sang Little Sailor and I literally just could not believe what I was hearing and the voice was even more spectacular obviously in the room than then I'd heard it on this on this little demo that they'd done and we sat down that minute and we wrote Lay Me Down

and that was the first time I met Sam and I still remember it to this day it was goosebumps up and down my arms we wrote it in like 20 minutes it was just like one of those things that was like it just felt heavenly and yeah I just knew that was it was special you know

and all the songs that had written up to that point led to that moment and yeah we recorded it and I played it for my managers, Jack and Sam and they

I always think this is so funny because they called me back so quickly. It was almost like they hadn't listened to the whole song. They probably got to like the first chorus and they were just like, well who's this? What is this? What's going on? And I was like, this is this kid called Sam and

they were just like, this is incredible and I was like I know they were managing disclosure these kids so they were managing and Howard was like 16 literally at the time and they'd found them on my space and basically what happened was Sam and I

and Elvin had written this song Lay Me Down and then they played it for disclosure and they're like wow this is amazing so we went down to Disclosure's parents They had like an antique shop. Their father runs an antique shop in the countryside or in Ryegate.

And there was like an attic that the boys had used to make their music in. And it was like real grisly. There was like cobwebs everywhere. And it was like dead flies and stuff. And Sam and I went there. And we wrote Latch. That's the first thing we did together. So I'd written Lay Me Down and Latch in the space.

of about two weeks and that just changed my life you know it was just it felt like such an amazing but it didn't change your life in the moment you're excited because these songs are great yeah working with you know this incredible singer these really up-and-coming DJs but they're in a cobweb attic you've got this you've got a kid who's got no record deal at the time so as excited as you might be and in retrospect you're excited about the art it's not like you all of a sudden can buy dinner No, I can't. And actually, it's funny because even when Latch became a hit, we still couldn't buy dinner. And I remember, like, Sam and I both being broke as a joke.

And I had to lend Sam some money to take the bus. You know, it's like that kind of stuff. Like, I'll buy him a sandwich from Prett-a-Mong-J and vice versa. And it was, you know, Sam was still scrubbing toilets in a bar, you know, even when Latch was playing. Because it's like the royalties take a while to come through, you know. so bizarre you do a really interesting publishing deal so tell me about like why you chose to do your publishing deal with them and like what the situation was at that point yeah so i guess they because this was the first thing that you know that really was was starting to happen you know

nick and joe who are the a and rs that signed sam that was they were kind of the first people to hear my songs as well so when nick came to my my studio and i um i i well we sang lay me down and that's how sam got the record deal we just performed it live and nick was it was so cool it was one of those like a and our like stories out of the music business where he was just like write down any number you know it's like one of those moments like in the movies it's like oh my god like this is actually going to happen it's like you're we this is 100% going to happen you're we this is 100% going to and the belief was there immediately just from that one song. And it feels like a comedy routine where it's going to be like write down that number and you've never seen money before.

So you're like, $5. And he's like, I think, you know, $6.00. Done. I mean, to just be clear, that wasn't for my publishing deal. That was for Sam's record deal. But the two kind of went hand in hand because we were writing these songs together. So it made sense for me to sign my publishing. with them because they kind of believed in us.

So that was... This is also Nick's... Shout out Nick. Guarantees listening to this. 100%. You know, this is also his forte. Is that he is... There are a handful of ANR people

who don't look at your credits before they sign you. 100%. I can name them. And Nick's one of them. So his success is because he genuinely believes in talent. in an era where it's all analytics, it still has managed to, like, continue to sign really good writers and producers and artists

and continues to work with great people, not just because of their analytics, but because they're going on. 100%. And that's so true. And it's such a rare quality, strangely enough, and, you know, it should be celebrated. Nick follows his instincts on stuff no matter what, and he doesn't need the data to back it up. He's just like, I know this is a... hit in my heart and that's

I'm so grateful to him because you know both him and Joe Charrington gave me a start you know my first publishing deal yeah one Nick I am expecting sushi again and number two um

uh Joe is an amazing executive in her own right um who it's like also is like you guys really helped her you know her career too so it's like a really cool group of people. At that point, they start hearing the songs.

It's a good thing you have management to help open those doors. You guys have this publishing situation. He is a record deal. Latch is happening. Lame Me Down hasn't come out yet. But you obviously have a lot of people feature on hit songs but don't necessarily have a hit themselves. so you don't know yet

but at this point you have to have seen some of the writing on the wall not to I didn't mean that that's also foreshadowed but you had to see that you know what it goes back to what we just said it's like there's just a special feeling

you have in your gut when you know something's like good you know it's special and I think that's something that shouldn't be underestimated Because even to this day, it's like, you have to trust that compass as a songwriter to know. It's like if this is really, if it's special or not, you know, and it's like, it's that same thing. I didn't know obviously everything that was going to happen, but I just really loved what we were doing and I really believed in it.

And, I mean, that, you know, thankfully that proved to be the right thing. I know you and Elvin had, you know, Elvin's the person who introduces you to. Yeah. But you two end up having your own writing team that gets created. So what was that hard for, do you talk to, is, is Elvin the Pete best of this situation? Like, does he recognize that this was like, is it, are you guys all close? Yeah, we're still super close. And that's the best thing about it.

You know, I spoke to him literally today. So we, you know, it's. Hi, Elvin. Yes, yes, shout out, Alvin. Yeah. And you know what the, what was so cool about this moment. in my life is like I made some like lifelong friends

and like we built this it was a team you know because Jack and Sam who started managing me like God knows why because I had no cuts or anything but they saw something in me and they liked my songwriting and then like me meeting Sam and them managing disclosure and all of this stuff

we just kind of that those songs that we wrote they kind of bonded us and we just became this team this team and like real like real friends like looking out for each other helping each other write songs you know doing features with each other like trying to get better you know if i ever need anything from any of any of the we're just like a little family you know and that was so important and it can't be underestimated like how much we we helped each other and and you know that was that was just so awesome that i got to experience the music industry like that because you know all the stories and things you hear is like, you know, it can kind of be tough and ruthless and all those things.

And we all, we had this little bubble that we just kind of looked out for each other and it just made the whole thing so much more fun. Totally. I think one of the things that's important for, for a hit writer is also to define their independence from the group of people that they've come up with. and the fact that you were able to squeeze in a major hit with Rather Beed during all of this gives you this element of in the way that if you if your primary writer is the artist then people assume that you're you're fortunate to work with this artist which is true but when you have a hit outside of that relationship then it shows oh that person is fortunate to have you two and it happened just at the perfect time to sort of come up together in a way that's you know that shows

that your writing prowess is as valuable as as their vocal yeah that was that was really cool i mean and yeah that was important for me just because it kind of it just proved to myself that you know i can add value as you know i i'm i'm good you know it's hard to know if you're good or not And then it's like it's like you can kind of get really, you know, I think all songwriters, artists, everyone have that insecurity, you know, this kind of makes them, you know, who they are and to tell the truth and kind of all those things. But when I had rather be and I wrote all those lyrics about my then-girlfriend, now wife, you know, when I'm with you, there's no place I'd rather be. And it was kind of a real lesson too of like really writing from the heart. a cliche but if you really just you know tell the truth and then these magical things were happening

you know and it's always the way when you kind of just say you really do actually write your life you know and not just something that you think someone wants to hear it's different you know more often than not in songwriting sessions it can be a bit paint by numbers you know especially in the camp stuff and it's like right who needs a song and how are we going to write it and it's like for me personally all of my success have come from songs where I've just really like either told my truth or got someone else to tell their truth in a really intimate moment and I feel like people resonate with that and it's like they can almost like tell you know it's a weird thing like the universe kind of like goes you know you that that was hard to do you know that was took a lot of

bravery to say that so therefore like the song goes you know that's kind of how how it's worked for me anyway and the artists seem to recognize that because another mark of a of um a certain kind of writer is someone where the the artist continue to go to the same well because they know that there is an honesty there and they like how their fans interact with that so sam disclosure or a clean bandit, they all continue to go to you, you know, throughout this process.

You know, when stay with me becomes, you know, that's the, you know, that's the evergreen that of all evergreens kind of things.

And that comes out, and it's followed, you know, you've just followed a grip of hits. This thing is sort of the pinnacle. It's right at the right time, the right artist. Everything works out in the zeitgeist.

there's what happens after that that I always find intriguing it's like it's you have a lot of songs come out you work with some huge people you know besides the besides Sam you know I obviously I can ask you about stay with me and all that but that's out there yeah what happens after that's really interesting

because you don't stop you don't stop working constantly there's you know writing on the wall but that's a whole other kind of you know

opportunity I feel like did that change how you started viewing pop music I feel like you aim for that differently you know you're aiming for a film thing you're already given this slot

you just have to nail it well writing's on the wall yeah that was it was that's an amazing opportunity It was just like a pinch yourself moment because who doesn't want to write a Bond song? It's like this has got to be the ultimate dream for any songwriter. It was for me anyway.

And I'm a big believer in manifestation and I've always manifested that moment coming which is completely bizarre. But like I'd written the chords for writings on the wall before we got any kind of opportunity to have a go at writing the song for the movie. and it was almost like, you know, and you just sit at the piano and you're just fumbling around

and I was just doing that one time and I wrote these chords and I was like, wow, that kind of sounds like a bond song and I don't know why, but it was just like something about the minor ninth chord, something. I was just like, huh, yeah, well, just like pocket that, put it somewhere and it was like years later, we got the opportunity and Sam was so busy at that time, like touring like crazy and they were like, well, you've got this one shot

we had like such a short moment in the studio to have a go writing the song but I kind of already knew what it should sound like at least so that was a big head start and we wrote it really quickly and thankfully they liked it and we got to do all of that Yeah I mean and you know

seeing you guys win the Academy Award it's sort of like it's a different thing when you see people win the Grammys you sort of expect that it's fun to watch your peers win that kind of thing and you then win and Ivor Novello for

you know which for people who are in the U.S. and I believe it's possible those will end up here too at some point but you know it's really the songwriter Grammys it's the songwriter Academy Awards you win all of that you've now checked all the

the boxes and then there's just another sort of obviously you continue to work with the best and you continue to work with Sam but there's sort of

a lull from the level of success that you accept and not just because of quarantine which also messed up everything but the artist that you were working with are people that are at a different generation now the people that you were discovering in the beginning

Eliza Sam disclosure clean Bennett are now the neck they're all already older and you continue to work with the same level of artists did you did your

expectations were you meeting your expectations was there ever fear of not being able to replicate and this is easy to have this conversation right now this would have been a harder conversation five months ago yeah yeah no

1,000 percent I found it really difficult to be honest with you because where do you go from winning all those awards you know it was like I kind of achieved my dreams which is a scary thing to do because it's like when you're on that road to just like, how do you, you know, I can hustle and do that.

And then you like, you actually get to a point where, I mean, I was just so blessed. We had this unbelievable run where I just, I ticked every box I'd ever wanted to tick in my head. So I kind of had a weird moment where I was like, what do I, where do I go from here? What do we do from here? What, you know, and I think it was really great. It was humbling and it was cool because the answer was just do what you've always been doing, which is just love writing songs, you know, and not doing it for any kind of, you know,

justification or award, because that's all nonsense, really. It's a lovely thing to have, but it's not, the reason is always just the love of the doing. You know, you already win when you are in the room, getting goosebumps and writing music. And that's...

But to still work with even, you know, and Sam specifically, you've always, you know, that's been somebody worked at the whole time, And as, you know, if you're talking about, he released a number of songs that still won gold, they were still successful for what they were. A couple of, you know, the Stargate won, you had a few that did really well, you know,

but there's still sort of the level that even rather be for, you know, that record, which, you know, these other songs that were worldwide hits, it's one thing when you're like, man, I'm, I'm nailing these gold and maybe itching platinum and some of them, you know, you get some advances, you get some stuff,

you're making some money, but it's not like you really need it, so then it's, it gets complicated. It's a good lesson in this, you know, it's just, but it's just about doing what you love. It's so simple, really.

It's like, you know, and it's something I always, I still think about now, because you get, when the door's all open, you have all these opportunities, and you can do it, you know, a lot of, you can do anything. There's almost too many things you can do, right?

So it's the power of saying no is so important, which you touched on before. It's not just doing something because the streams are really great. If you don't think, do you don't feel that artist? You know, it's like there's other people saying, you should do this? But then you have to ask yourself, do you love this? You know, so it's like, it's such a basic thing,

but it's like a really important thing. Yeah. And so I really try and. And stay by that. And, you know, I don't work with anyone that I don't think is incredible. And that's the best way to do it. And that could be somebody that's just starting out, by the way. And, you know, I'm working with this amazing girl in London.

She's 19. You know, she's got no record deal. She's got no anything. And it's like some of my favorite songs I've ever written. You know, and it's like, that's what I love. You know, that's the joy of this job. It's not all that other stuff. It's the actual, you know, sitting around and hashing it out.

You know, that's what I live for. Trying to explain that to somebody said, I just need somebody to get me in the bigger rooms, literally like two weeks ago. You know, and I was like, why would you ever want to do that right now? Those names that you think are bigger rooms aren't guaranteed to get anything. Like, I'm purposefully writing with all of these people who are, not signed right now. So to

develop the relationship that you can, you know, use to become a co-writer over time. You know, why would you ever try to work with the big names in 2023? Yeah. You know, it's like that's, that really

will, and it's, I'm not talking about Taylor who already has her own thing going on. Like, you know, you want to be part of that journey. But okay, so before I ask, you know about this you know current wave i heard that the new sam album is really good it's amazing um i'm excited for you because i'm sure that that you know there's going to be a lot of buzz around it as

it comes out but um at least uh you know nick speaks highly of it and people who've been involved in it i've said amazing things about it i'm super super proud of it and um it's we just went on this amazing adventure. We went to Jamaica, which was like, this is the other joy of this job, you know, it's like you get to travel and do this crazy shit. And it's like, I've never been to Jamaica in my life. And Sam wanted to go and write somewhere, you know, that was different and might provide some inspiration. And, you know, in all honesty, I was thinking when we arrived there, I was like, this is crazy because it's like too beautiful, you know, you're in this amazing place.

I was like, there's a high chance that, you know, we're not going to do anything good here because we're having too much fun, you know? And it's like, you know, drinking rum punch and, you know, like it shouldn't have worked, you know, in my head. It's like this is all too perfect. And yet we made some of the best music ever. And it's almost like half of the album was made on that trip.

And we just win this amazing place with all these amazing people and you know everyone like talk about it was like Avengers assemble there in terms of like you know all of the talent but we all just had this mutual respect and humility and everyone kind of let everyone else

do their thing and Sam being the creative force that they are it was just really one of the most special experiences I've ever had and so yeah I'm so excited for everyone to hear Sam's next record. It's out on January 27th. Cool. I hear that the

drive from the airport to the studio is notoriously long and insane. So like you think about, yeah, sure you're in Jamaica, but it is not like it's, it's not like a resort that you just land. Oh my God, it's a journey to get to this studio. It's super

sketchy and there's like, at the time it was your G-jam, yeah. And it was kind of like, it was also still lockdown in Jamaica so there was an 8pm curfew so there's also like soldiers in the road with like machine guns like making sure that you're not like

disobeying the rules so you're going like these really bumpy roads but it was all part of how the excitement and it was also great that we had the curfew because that meant we couldn't go out and get fucked up and we had to actually like we were kind of like like just only in this little bubble

which we just would end up writing songs day and night you know yeah the metaphor of that bumpy road to get to the recording studio and then having something like unholy be what it is right now again you've had a lot of singles come out with sam since the last sort of you know worldwide hits and some that have been worldwide hits in their own way but this is like a way different thing.

Yeah. This might be of all the songs that you've had ever, this might be like, you know, in a world where everything's getting really compartmentalized to have one of those hits

right now is harder to do than it was in 2015. Yeah. It just is. There's just so much music, isn't there? So it's like just that the sheer odds are stacked against you. Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, I was, we're so grateful for how that record's been received. It's been mind-blowing because it's such a different record. You know, it's like I think all of us as a team were all, like, we all loved it, but it was also kind of scared us because it was so different. But that's also so cool. And I mean, Sam deserves all the credit for just trusting their instincts on it and being like, there's something about this that I just love and I want it to put it out into the world.

Well, it reminds me of like when George Michael at that, like, started doing some stuff, you know, sort of like he had the Faith album, which is so, so just brilliant song composition. And then went, you know, and would take risks throughout his career. And that's why he always was relevant. Yeah. Was because he was willing to go and do that kind of thing. And just the idea of having, you know, world-class voice being able to do. unique songs and not just do the predictable

here is listen to my voice but instead be like now listen to my artistry and it's just like it's a great moment for music in general to have that so I'm so good job thank you okay so we're going to go to this last segment

we're going to just do a five for five let me just list five things and you just tell me what comes off the top of your head we're going to start with we're going to start with disclosure excellent does it have to be one word no I don't really care

okay fine nobody's knocking on the door or two meticulous they're just yeah they're really so so clever you know and the thing about disclosure is you can put them

you could put them in like you could give them the worst machine to make music with you could give them like a cassio drum thing that no one's used, you know, that like a six-year-old would play with, and they'd manage to make, like, the sickest

beat of all time on it, and you'd be like, so it's just, it's a real lesson in, like, they made their entire first album settle on a cracked version of logic with no plugins, and only using the, like, stock sounds, you know?

But just, like, like, it's even more complement to their skill, because they could just they can make music out of anything and it just bangs every time you know it's them clean bandit um like super super talented you know jack from clean bandit is just like he's such a i mean i may dare i say underrated producer he's just like so skilled plays everything um you know and he's a genius jack really Nick and Joe

That's yeah Like Patriarch And matriarch You know They're kind of like My mom and dad In the music industry

That showed me like How it all worked Yeah definitely Sam Smith Like Best friend Yeah Friend for Life

With voice of an angel I'm gonna do two more I'm gonna do your mom just like my inspiration and just like yeah the coolest person on the planet your wife like my everything this is getting quite emotional isn't it yeah she's she's my everything and yeah mother of my two beautiful children Jackson and Jean shout out Jackson and Jean well thank you for doing this we've known each other for a long time and And it's, you know, again, part of what we do as a generation of writers, in my opinion, is celebrate each other better than I think other generations may have done.

And it's exciting to see how successful you've been in not just your own journey, but in hosting other artists. And that's just something that's going to really stick with me, is that that says everything about how you view. your career that it's in the service of the artist that you work with and by doing that you're able to fulfill your own ego's desires but it really comes from you know giving them a safe place to be themselves uh so thank you for for doing that and for you know choosing your own path that's that's it's exciting to watch and and i appreciate you thank you so much for having me us this is so cool, man. I listen to this podcast every day. I go

for a run in Hampstead Heath and I listen to and the writer is so I'm kind of completely humbled to be here. So thanks for having me. There you go. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, mega house management,

and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch and Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan. Signing off.