And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 168: Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

With over 66 million album equivalents, and 55 million digital songs sold, not to mention over 110 billion combined streams, today guest is the singer of a GRAMMY® Award-winning, multi-Platinum rock band. The group developed a grassroots following with a series of independent EPs before making their major-label debut on KIDinaKORNER/Interscope with 2012’s Continued Silence EP and full-length debut NIGHT VISIONS, which entered the Billboard 200 at No. 2, while lead track “Radioactive” topped Billboard’s Hot Rock Songs, won a GRAMMY® for Best Rock Performance, and achieved RIAA Diamond status. After achieving their first #1 with “Radioactive,” the band immediately repeated this feat with “Demons,” marking the first back-to-back #1’s for the band, with both songs in the Top 5 simultaneously. 2015’s platinum selling Smoke + Mirrors debuted at No. 1 on the Billboard 200.The 3x platinum selling album EVOLVE followed in 2017, earning a GRAMMY® nomination for Best Pop Vocal Album and unleashing three No. 1 Alternative radio hits: “Believer,” GRAMMY®-nominated “Thunder,” and “Whatever It Takes.” All three songs were also top 5 hits at Alternative radio. “Believer” was the quickest song to reach #1 for them. The band’s fourth album and platinum selling, ORIGINS, debuted atop Billboard’s Top Alternative Albums and Top Rock Albums charts, while its lead single “Natural” spent nine weeks at No. 1 at Alternative Radio. It was recently announced that their smash single “Thunder” received Diamond certification by the RIAA. With the certification of “Thunder,” Imagine Dragons have notably become the first group in music history to achieve four Diamond singles. For their fifth studio album, the band teamed up with esteemed producer Rick Rubin. 2021’s Mercury — Act 1 debuted in the Billboard 200 top 10. In 2022, they expanded the world of Mercury with a double album, Mercury – Acts 1 & 2, including the single “Bones,” which has gathered over 380 million streams to date and the accompanying music video.And The Writer Is… Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Come join our Discord, follow our socials, and share your music with the and The Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey, what's up? It's Paige MacDonald, and this is your weekly music industry update. Fleetwood Mac's Christine McVee has sadly passed away at the age of 79.

In 2021, Bad Bunny was the world's biggest artist on Spotify with 9 billion streams. This year, he doubled that tally with 18.5 billion streams, making him the service's biggest global artist for the third year in a row. Music audio streams in the U.S. just crossed the one trillion mark for the first time ever in a single year. Voice streaming startup logcast has announced a new integration with Spotify's app that it says aims to provide artists with a new way to earn money from content on the platform. Warner Chapel Music has struck a partnership with Web 3 Entertainment Company Defiant. Universal Music Group has acquired a minority stake in the independent music company, P.O. for an undisclosed amount. Global recorded music body, IFPI, has launched the official MENHR, which it calls the first

ever official chart in the Middle East and North Africa. Boomplay has struck a partnership with France's Generations Radio to promote African music. BMG has acquired royalty interests in the recordings of multi-platinum Eurodance star, Hadaway. Japan-based music company AVEX Group has struck a road. a new licensing deal with NetEase Cloud Music. The video sharing social networking service Triller, the U.S.-based challenger to TikTok, says that it is exploring revenue share deals with major labels. Music and Technology Company, Venice Music, has appointed Danny Olivia as vice president

of legal and business affairs. ATC management has named three new manager partners, Brandon Sanchez, Jordan Alper, and Ben Rafsen. Sony Music has named Christel Kaibe as Director of Repetor Strategy for Africa. Renee Rapp has signed with Universal Music Publishing Group in WME's Lucy Dickens and Ben Totis for bookings. A big thank you to Charlotte Isidore of Megahouse for gathering today's news. Now tune in for a new episode of An The Writer Is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan.

Today's legit top shelf A-list rock star headlines are reading. knows across the globe. His band is the only band in music history to have four. Four R-A-A-Diamond certified singles. One of those singles, by the way, set the record for longest run at the top of the Billboard Rock Charts and also sat on the Billboard Hot 100 for 87 weeks. Yes, he sold over 60 million equivalent albums and has like 100 billion combined streams. And yes, he has Grammys, but most importantly, this man is an advocate and philanthropist. All the way from Las Vegas, this family man is not just a world-class artist, but a world-class human and songwriter.

And the writer is Dan Reynolds of Imagine Drag it. Hey, I feel like, it kind of feels like the UFC announcers. Yeah, there you go. He's like, and it's time. I feel like, I'm amped. I'm ready to go. Yeah, let's do this. Let's do this. Okay. So, yeah, let's start from the beginning. You're born. I was born. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I think that happened. Pretty sure. Pretty sure.

You don't remember it, to be honest with you. So, uh, well, you do, you. But I was the seventh son. Yeah, I was going to say, you had a lot, you have a lot of older siblings. What's, you know, you're, you're born in in, in Las Vegas, in Nevada. Tell me about your childhood. Yeah. Las Vegas was. formed by the mob and the Mormons. That's who were the settlers of Las Vegas. Believe it or not, this is a little history lesson for you. My family happens to be on the side of the Mormons, not the mob. I know that's a little less interesting, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

My mom had nine kids, yes, nine, eight boys, one girl. I am the seventh born. and the seventh son after me was the girl that she wanted the whole time, and then a mistake child, which is my youngest brother, Coulter, which is what I tell him every day. But actually, my mom wanted to have more kids after him, and it was just like her body finally just gave up. She's still alive, though. Don't worry. Anyway, so my child was- She tapped out at it.

She's like, I'm nine. I'm out. I'm out. Nine, I'm out. Yes. So, yeah, my mom, my dad was an attorney. in Las Vegas, uh, collections attorney, which I can get into with you later, but I worked for him as a janitor for a little bit, which was a really all-star job. Um, and, uh, my mom was really an academic. Um, she had us all take piano lessons for 10 years from 6 to 16 only because she had

read this academic article that was like, if your child takes piano lessons from the ages of 6 to 16, they'll be better at math and science. So there was no really, uh, um, um, I'm not to say my mom doesn't love art and respect art, but she was very much like doctors and lawyers and scientists and that's what our family does. And to show you the reality of that, all my brothers are doctors and lawyers. Plastic surgeon, anesthesiologist, dentist, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer. My lawyer is my brother. My manager is my brother who's also a lawyer. So, yeah, so I took piano lessons for 10 years and little did she know she made the mistake of instillary.

a love for music and art in the seventh sun, which is supposed to be magical, by the way, be the seventh sun. And so, yeah, I fell in love with music. I loved Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, all the classical is kind of what I was raised with. And I think that's melodically how I write, probably, is very influenced by classical music. And we can get into that later. But yeah, And then I, in middle school, played a tenor saxophone for three years in jazz band. And then I also took drum lessons for a few years because my mom told me once I completed piano, then I could pick my own instrument. So I wanted to do drum lessons.

Did that for a few years. And then kind of taught myself play guitar in high school, started a garage band and stuff like that. Because my older brothers all had garage bands. But that was like ska years. It was all like ska music and stuff. and I played in their bands and played in my own bands and my band was terrible, but yeah. Before we get to that, when I think of being raised in a Mormon family,

I would assume that the music was, and this might be a weird assumption, but that there wasn't a lot of secular music, especially if you're playing classical music on piano and whatnot. But if you had, if I think of a family that has seven older brothers, my assumption is that all you had was secular music, you know, being like funneled in behind. I don't know what it was like. What kind of outside music would you be exposed to through your childhood? No, that's a great question.

Yeah, I mean, my family was not like pilgrimmy Mormon for sure. Like, you know, my dad grew up like constantly in our house on rotation was Paul Simon, Billy Joel, Harry Nelson, Bob Dylan, Kat Stevens, lots of singer-songwriter, nothing, you know, no swear words, for certainly that, right? No swear words or anything like that.

But my brothers would, like, they would sneak in, like, CDs. Like, I remember, like, my older brother Mack bringing home, like, never mind or something by Nirvana and being like, whoa, this is like blowing my mind. This is amazing and sneaking into my room and listening to it.

And then when I got into high school, or actually late middle school, I really got into hip hop. But I was a child of the 90s. And there was an era there that was just the greatest time to be alive to witness hip hop. It was like the East Coast, West Coast rivalries. You had Biggie and you had Tupac. You had an outcast coming to the East Coast and Mace and like going to be a preacher.

And then his comeback with welcome back. There was like all this cool stuff happening in hip hop that I loved. And it was like Eminem, the birth of Eminem, like all this just cool. It was a cool time to be like a hip hop head. And so I really fell in love with hip hop probably more than rock or anything like that. I listened to a lot of alternative women of the 90s. So like Atlantis Morseh, like Jagged Little Pill, like was like religion to me. That was amazing.

Some grunge, like I said, like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, stuff like that. But mainly hip hop. And it was kind of sneaky, for sure. You know, I wasn't like going to show. We didn't have, my dad was an attorney, but there were so many kids that we didn't have a lot of money. There was not like, I couldn't go to show. Like the first festival I ever went to, I played. Like that was, you know what I mean?

Like, we never went to festivals or things like that. So, yeah, it was just kind of a normal upbringing. Did you try it? Did you try rapping? I did. I beatboxed a lot. So in middle school, like I would beatbox with, like, friends and especially people who could rap. And I would wrap a little bit.

but embarrassingly so probably is the best way to describe it. I certainly was never like I'm a rapper or anything like that. But I could, you know, I could do a little bit here and there. It's so advantageous to understand the complexities of hip-hop rhythms in being a real songwriter has to understand rhythms. And so many songwriters think melodies are up and down and not necessarily rhythms where you can have

the melody doesn't have to go very far if the rhythms are really interesting. You know, so you end up with a Bach training, Bach and, and East Coast, West Coast rival will put together an interesting songwriter. You know, when you were in a band

and you were saying, when I cut you off earlier, that you're in this, you joined a band in high school. Like, that was your first, that's when you started in bands where you said it wasn't very, good. What band is that?

Oh man, what were we called? I think we were called like 17 years or something. It was like when I was 17 and like all of us were 17 so we were like 17 years. Was it original music? Yeah, yeah, and we entered a battle of the bands in high school and we lost. We didn't even

placed. I think it was like third, second, first, like we didn't even place. And rightfully so because the bands that were above us were like these really talented. There were some great metal musicians at our school that were just like they could just, and they were super tight and had been together since they were young. But honestly, we really weren't great. And it was probably good for us.

Speaking, I'm saying us, but really for me, like, it was like, oh, you're not, you're not good enough. Like, you need to get better. It's definitely, it's funny because I'll, like, run into my friends who were in those bands now and they're like, remember when we beat you at battle the bands, I'm like, yes, yeah, I remember when you beat you beat. You may have won the battle. But yeah, but touching on what you said a second ago, I just want to note that I totally agree. And probably the most, like, something that I saw that I was like, oh, I do that a lot.

When I write, I really write like a drummer or someone who beatboxes or something like that. Like when I'm in the studio with people, like my melody's coming. I'm like, and I was watching it. Michael Jackson does a lot of that too. If you watch a lot of his in-studio moments, he really was. rhythmic in the way that he would explain everything. All his melodies were always like, and a lot of even the tracks, he would be like beatbox that.

He would, you know what I mean? He would like, he was really good with his mouth and formulating and articulating melodies and sounds together at the same time. And I think there's a lot of artists that do this, by the way. I think a lot of the great writers do it from a very percussive place, like

you were saying. So I totally resonate with that and agree. I tell a lot of people in this in sessions, I'm always like, well, how would you sing how would you see this line like it's a drum fill? It's like, is a comment that I make a lot because I think it's so, again, it's easy to get stuck into eighth notes and it becomes,

every section sort of sounds the same because it's hard to hear complex rhythms or to take that risk initially. So it totally makes sense why, you know, and especially, I mean, I don't know your music previous to Imagine Dragons, but, you know, that idea of how many different sections you have where the rhythms are interesting or where the line comes in

or, you know, all that stuff, it starts to make more sense when you take it from a beatboxing perspective, you know. So you go to school at University of Nevada, you know, you trans. transfer to BYU after you go on a mission. Where was your mission, by the way? Nebraska. And actually, I originally got into BYU from the get-go, and then I got kicked out of BYU.

What? And then I went to you know the... Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. How'd you get kicked out? Yeah. So BYU is a Mormon school. So you're supposed to adhere to certain, you know, Mormon values.

and like the word of wisdom is one of the things and it's no smoking, no drinking. And then also morality, so no sleeping with someone outside of marriage, really nothing but kissing outside of marriage is really what Mormons believe. And it's kind of, you know, it's a lot of Christian religions teach this, but Mormons really, it's like a big deal. Like if you're, you know, if you're like sleeping around or something, then you get like, church discipline. They're not like hitting you with a ruler or something, but it's like you don't get to take the sacrament at church and everybody sees that. And your mom's sitting

next to you and like the sacrament comes and you have to just pass it to the next person. And they're like, what did you do, child? Do people, and does everyone talk about it? Like if somebody doesn't? Oh, for sure. Oh my gosh. I can't tell you how many time we get in class and somebody would be like, did you see that Jacob did not take the sacrament? I have been saying that he's been hanging out with Sierra. So I, I, I can't tell you. could formulate a couple ideas of what happened. So, um, so I got kicked out to BYU because I was, I'm a really honest person. Like, I'm a very much like my grandfather and my grandmother. It's like, what you see is what you get. I will tell you the truth and even if it hurts me. And this is a

probably a weakness of mine to a degree too. Like I don't get me wrong, like I believe in honesty and all those things. But man, like, there's a lot of times in my life where I was like, you know, I could have just maybe like when I met with the bishop, at BYU and he's like, are you, are you, uh, sleeping around or anything? I was like, well, I have slept with my girlfriend, but I love her. We've been together for four years. And we slept together, I think, five times. And they were like, well, now you can't go to BYU. And I already had my roommate. Like, it was one week away, just paid for everything. I took the ACT three times because BYU is so hard to get into and I had to get a high enough score. Like I went to the after school programs because

I wasn't, like, it was really hard for me to get 28 on my ACT. For some people, I'm sure they're like, oh, I got that my first time. Whatever. But anyway, so, yeah, so it didn't serve me because I told him the truth and then they kicked me out. What happened at, what happened at home? Like, how did your parents? Oh, my mom cried. My mom cried.

I had to go home and tell my mom everything. And then I had to tell my mom, I've been lying to her for four years because she didn't even know I had a girlfriend because it was a Catholic girl. and you're not supposed to date, you know, my mom didn't want me to have any serious girlfriends, let alone someone outside of Mormonism. So we had to hide it all throughout high school. And so, yeah, it just really messed me up.

But it provided great musical fodder. Like a lifetime of albums. Are you, just, you know. Are you religious now? No, no. No, my whole family's still very Mormon. And I am, I wouldn't say I'm an atheist. I would say I'm probably more like an agnostic.

I'm very spiritual-minded. Like I'm a truth seeker. I'm looking for truth wherever it may lie. Maybe that's in ayahuasca. Maybe that's in like going away to foreign lands and studying under teachers. Like I love all things spiritual, but I wouldn't, I am not a religious man. Why is coming to that conclusion, I was raised in a community that was like pretty Jewish.

Like everyone I knew was Jewish. Everyone had Bar Mitzvah, Bat Mitzvah, and I didn't even know that that was, I never thought of it as unusual because everyone had that. And the kids that weren't Jewish were basically raised Jewish too because you're just even so close to it. Like one of my friends from Utah, he's as Mormon as a non-Mormon gets. You know?

It's like, and it took me years to develop my own conclusion about what, like, how I view the world. And some of like, I feel like when you travel, especially in a weird sort of way, when you're a lead singer of a band, it's kind of a religious experience for the people in the crowd. Like, you find yourself entranced into something different than it just feels, to me, it's almost like, that. that's the most religious that I would ever get is like in a, in the middle of a show. And you feel like connected to this audience and something different. But I don't know. How did you come up with this conclusion in a family that was like particularly religious? In a culture that's really religious.

Yeah. And first and foremost, I'd say I think Judaism and Mormonism actually has a lot of similar things. It's like it's a cultural religion. So Mormonism is more than like, you know, you go to church on Sunday or something. It's like these are your people. This is your tribe. This is your heritage. Like my grandfather.

And it's like my ancestors crossed the plains to like settle. You know, it was like Mormonism is, sorry, my kid downstairs is doing something with an air thing. Is that super bad on your hand? No. Or is that just me that's hearing that? It's okay. You'll probably hear. Okay. Okay, cool. Cool.

Yeah, so going back to just Mormonism, it's when you leave Mormonism per se, and I haven't left Mormonism, right? Because it's kind of like for sinking everything. It's like you lose friends, you lose family, you lose, you're everything. Like my upbringing, a lot of my best friends are still Mormon, right? And so it causes kind of all these.

weird riffs where you're in the room together and you're like it's a big deal if you don't believe the same thing it's not like kind of foot in foot out like other you know some other religions it's more like yeah you know it's whatever you can kind of be a halfway whatever but Mormonism it's like you're in or you're not in and it creates weird vibes for sure so the reason i say that is i'm actually curious is that was that your case with judas well i i i mean you said it right with the cultural thing. I think part of it is because we really are in a this is so off

songwriting stuff which I think is fine because I think it's more important to talk about humans in the music business and in when you are raised in a culture outside of mainstream Christian

culture like mainstream Christian culture you get off on you get off a school on Good Friday Good Friday meant nothing to me you get off for like you see ash wednesday couldn't didn't understand what it was still i'm still trying to wrap my head around what that is you know you know your money says in god we trust in um you in school you've seen the pledge of allegiance and in 1954 they added under god to combat communism and when you grow up in a culture that believes in something different

then you look at all this and you're like wow i am pretty excluded like christmas vacation was was weird because all the like you watch tv and all those those kids are living in different culture so you automatically like i don't know how to not be i'm jewish the way somebody who's italian is italian like it's a really like a cultural thing there's obviously some like religious affiliation to some of it But, yeah, I think I'm, you don't get excommunicated out of being Jewish. If you're like, I'm not, just because I'm not religious doesn't mean that I'm not Jewish in that sense. And I think Mormonism is a little more strict as far as if you don't believe in the religion, then you're no longer Mormon.

And that feels confusing. When people ask me if I'm Mormon, for instance, I typically say yes. I typically say, yeah, I am Mormon. For that exact reason, and they haven't excommunicated me. They could, by the way. They could. But I don't think it would serve them to excommunicate like their most famous member. Maybe Donnie and Marie have me beat.

I don't know. But they haven't excommunicated me. Yeah. I'm not daring them too, by the way. Yeah, yeah, in case they're listening. Yeah, but also it's like, I think there's just a complexity to all of, of it that isn't, it's hard to discuss, and it's hard to discuss a lot of the complexities that go along with culture when it really deals so much with your family and your friends

and your upbringing and, you know, like. Yeah, you don't want to like, at the end of the day, I care more about my mom's feelings and my, like, my siblings' feelings than anybody. You know, I don't, like, I would rather, I probably would rather lie to the world and be like, Mormonism is true. Joseph Smith, I love him. Just if it, because I make my family feel better. I'm like this close to doing that, but I just, there's a part of me that's also an artist that's like, I can't lie. I don't buy it.

You know, it's not for me. You went. There's parts of it I love. Like, I love the thought of families are forever and there's some beautiful things that I really identify with. Sorry, go ahead. No, I mean, you go, you know, this, this conversation with. the tangent sort of started when I was asking about, you know, you go on a mission and then you end up going back to BYU

and you were saying how you were actually kicked out of BYU. When you're out on the, when you're going to a mission to Nebraska, that's not really like the, no offense to Nebraska's either, but I don't think of that as really like the cultural center of the United States or music. You know, it feels like that's really pulling you outside of the things that, you know, hip hop and the things that you're passionate about, having to go on that mission

and then going to BYU, how did you keep some sort of musical compass? So on my mission, I was, for half of my mission, I was in these remote country towns, like there were only a town because a train passed through it.

And that taught me to some humility, slow living. You do a ton of service work. A mission is two years. You don't talk to your family. No girlfriends, nothing like that. You write home weekly, and you get to talk to your family on Christmas and Mother Day.

So twice you're on the phone. It was really, really hard. It's super lonely. You read the Bible every day. Not for me. It was very boring. And, I mean, I've read the whole Bible, you know, a few times over.

But I tried to embrace it, and I did a lot of service work, worked on a lot of farms, knocked all the doors. I was like, the dude, he was like, hello, my name is Elder Reynolds. I'd love to teach you about Jesus Christ. Like, I did that. I did that whole thing for two years.

So the first half, I was in these country towns. The second half, I was in downtown, Omaha, Lincoln. And I would even do soap boxing. So we would get these boxes and stand on them and be like holding the book of Mormon, like not repent ye stuff. Like Mormons don't do that. It's not like, repent ye, yeah, yeah.

It's more like love. It's like what you see on The Simpsons with like, what's his name, the neighbor that's like. Yeah, Ned Flanders. Ned Flanders. You're very much like a Ned Flanders. It's like, hey, you know, I'm here to bring love to your life. How can I help you? And literally when I knock on doors, one of the things you have to do is missionaries, you knock,

you say, can I teach you mess about Jesus Christ? If they say no, then you say, well, is there anything I can help you with? And no matter what they say, as long it's not some like crazy sexual thing or something, you need to do it. So they may say like, yeah, my roof needs. to be, you know, put the shingles on it. You're like, okay, how about mow my whole lawn and pick up all the dog poo? Okay. Like, so you're doing that all day. Like, little known secret. Anybody who has Mormons knock on their door, ask them to do something and they have to do it. So I'm giving you the DL here. But anyway, sorry, what I was getting to is I do these soapboxes, and I hated doing that. I hated standing up and being like, Mr. Preachy guy. So what I would do instead, and I got permission to do was to play music. So I would bring my guitar out and I'd sit on these corners. and I'd play songs and pick songs that are maybe a little like uplifting or something to like spread the good word.

But really I was just like playing covers of like the killers and like pants that I'd listen to when I was back on. But yeah, so that that was, so I kept music in that way. And I played my whole mission with a guitar. I kept a guitar in my apartment. You know, you move every like six months. And I wrote my whole mission too. So I kept up on it.

What kind of songs are you writing not, you know, You're just about to start this band. So, you know, are you already starting to write what you think of as the next step to being like, oh, man, I'm going to write songs and when I get home, I'm going to create a band and these are the new songs. Or are you writing from like, I'm so bored, I need something to write to keep me busy? No, I was writing with the notion of coming home and starting a band. for sure.

Did you have a name and all that? Sorry, go ahead. I said, did you have a name and all that stuff picked out? No, I didn't have a name. But I mean, if missionaries ask me like, hey, what are you going to do when you go home? I'd say, well, I'm going to college, but I'm also going to have a band on the side. I never told anybody like, hey, I'm going to be in a band and that's my career choice because people kind of laugh at that. It's like telling your friends, like, I'm going to be in the NFL.

And they're like, oh, yeah, are you? Okay. I'm cream. but like so I would never be like I'm going to be you know but secretly in my heart I believed it and I believed it enough that at the time I was real like I said I was I wanted to find God desperately and I would pray every single night since I was young you know I'm not a praying man these days really but on my mission I pray every night and be like God and if this can happen please let me go home and start a band and like do what I love I would pray for that every night of my Mormon mission so

you know, some would be like, if my mom's watching this, you'd be like, I told, it's because of the Mormon, like, Mormon God, you know? Like, answered your prayer and what have you done? You've forsaken him. But, uh, but, you know, that's the truth. The truth is, I did. And I, and then I got home and I was like, okay,

I worked so hard to try to find faith and I didn't find it, right? But you still ended up, it was. You still end up at BYU. I mean, like, it's not like you, you don't, maybe you're still struggling to find your faith, but you were still struggling to find your faith, you get back into

BYU's good graces, and you end up going there and you start a band. It's complex, though. But it's complex. I wanted to go to Berkeley, first of all, and I couldn't, because I couldn't afford it, and I didn't have a scholarship for it. BYU, if you go there as a Mormon, it's

super cheap. It's, like, cheaper than in any college. They give you, like, super crazy discount because you're Mormon. So, it was, like, part money, part, all my siblings went to BYU, and I wasn't about to be the first one who was like not going to be by you. Because I looked up to all my older brothers and they were cool and they were smart.

So they served missions and they came home and seemed to turn into like men and become more disciplined. And then, you know, so for me I was like, all right, we'll follow in the line of my brothers, I guess, you know. But yeah, so I mean, I'm not saying it wasn't by choice, but it was definitely there was a lot of pressures there. It wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like my very first choice to go back to the school that kicked me out. I was definitely like bitter to a degree about it. I'm more bitter now because they hit me up all the time for money. They're like, hey, Dan Reynolds alumni. I'm like, I'm not alumni.

I'm still a junior. And by the way, you guys did kick me out of your school. And let me just remind you. What were you studying in school? I literally, when I got there, this will show you where I was out of my life. I was like, I asked everybody I could find, what's the easiest major to take? I didn't even care. I had no interest in any.

anything but music. So I was like, what's EG's major I could take? And repeatedly, repeatedly people were like, there's a lot of easy teachers, professors, within the advertising marketing. So I did advertising marketing. I didn't even make it far enough into be in the program or anything, but that was what my major was. So yeah, I mean, it was just baloney for me. I don't know. It could have been anything. You start the band during those years and you know if you're

the dream scenario for anybody who's in a band in college is that you're going to get discovered and all these things are going to go on were any of the songs that we now know

were any of those written you know during you know was radioactive written while you were in Nebraska like were any of those songs sitting there where no one had heard them yet

and you know what songs do we know now were written when you were in your most infantile stage of the band. So our first single was written. I wrote it in my dorm room at BYU. And that was its time. So that's, you know, if you listen to the lyrics of the song, it's like leaving the academy, you know, it's time to begin, isn't it?

Pursuing your dreams, leaving behind everything else. Really, what you see is what you get. It was like I was writing about leaving BYU, moving back home to Los Vegas starting my band. And literally the stomp claps, the do-da-clap, was on my dorm room desk. It was

and I kept those in. Later we recorded in the studio and everybody did stomp's and claps in a big room and it kind of gave that big sound. But we kept those in because it kind of gave a cool acoustic value to it. Yeah, and it's also beautiful because part of our job is to capture a moment in our lives.

and that's like that's as organic as you get like that's a beautiful thing to keep that in there and i was listening that time period i was listening to a lot of um it was kind of like the birth of almost like the indie it was like the early thousands indie movement i was like listening to a lot of like margit and nuclear so-and-so's and like i remember like being very influenced by i think they i can't remember the song but i've never given it credit, but there was a lot of like that era that I was listening to at that time

and it's probably our most like fokey music. Like we're not a folk band but I was just, you know, I've listened to a lot of that kind of alternative indie movement in the thousands when I was writing that song. Well, as we get to the next phase you know, before we do that, I just want to go to this

next segment of what would your youngest brother Coulter ask Dan Reynolds on and the writer is. And he asks, what song do you most regret writing? That's great. Okay, so this is my youngest brother

who gave this question. You're saying, Colter wrote this. Yes. Which, by the way, my middle name is Colter. Oh, no way. Yeah, and then my parents reused it. It's a great name. I guess so many kids at that point

that they were like, well, like Bob, Mac, Clint, Paul, Brandon, we've run out of names. let's use Coulter again, I guess. Dan and then Dan and then Dan. He's like, not right. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Anyway, I love Coulter, and he is one of my best friends, and he is my younger brother, and he's actually a really successful music manager. Yeah. But long story short, why would he ask me that question? First of all, I'm upset with him. That's really funny. He actually, there was a longer part of it, but we're just going to go to that right now.

Right, of course. He definitely wanted, yeah. I don't regret. There's no song I've written and I regret. Let me come out the gates and say that. There's not one song that I've written that I regret. Um, because every song that I've written, I really like, I write all my own lyrics. Nobody ever writes lyrics for me. Everything I've said, I mean, genuinely. So if it's cringy now to me or something, it's like, I meant it at that time. I guess that's just the way it is. Uh, I think I would probably have regrets if that wasn't the case. And I'd be like, oh, that thing. And then I put my name.

on it and that sucks. That's fair. I don't have any songs that I regret. What was the question again? It was like, what song do I not like the most that I wrote? No, which one do you most regret writing? Yeah, most regret. I really, I don't regret writing any of the songs.

I know that's, I want to give you a salacious, salacious answer because that would be more fun. I truly, I truly don't have, maybe it's just because I'm getting older. If you would have asked me this when I was like bitter in my 20s, I probably would have been like, whatever made us most famous. I'm never playing radioactive.

That's our most famous song. And that's not what we should be known for. Did you ever go through that phase? No, but I could have. I definitely was faced with like that. You get to this point as a band, right, where especially if you have a giant success where you can be like,

but now I need to prove something, right? It's like I'm not just a pop success. I know how to write an artsy record. And a lot of bands do this, right? And it's why they end up having like second record that fails with third. This happens a lot. This is like a cultural phenomenon in the music industry.

And I get it because I certainly was faced with this moment where I was like, wait, but like, do I only like to write pop music? And then I really asked my deep set heart that. And I was like, yes, I really like to write pop music. So I went down the pop music road. And I'm glad I did because that's the music that I love. Like I grew up listening to way more hip hop than any, any like, I never listened to a song over like five minutes. Yeah, but I don't have. But I write pop songs, and I'm not, like, all those songs that have ever worked that I've ever written have been unique for that time and for that artist.

Like, your music isn't, I don't think of your music as pop. It's just good composition. Like, to me, I just listened to it is like, oh, this person understands song structure and writes from their perspective. Like, nobody's question. You have a tone that's unique. You have a... Not just in your actual vocal tone, but in your style of writing that isn't very...

I don't think of it as... It's not like you're pitching your songs to other artists when they don't work for you. And that's why it's not like... I don't think of it as pop in a sense that it's... The word pop, unfortunately, sounds really generic. And I don't think of that as generic. You know?

Well, I appreciate the sentiment. I mean, at the end of the day, like, John returns are so funny to me, especially as they get older, like, it's almost laughable to me to be like, this is alternative, this is indie, but this is like bedroom pop. But this is, because it's cool. It's like, it's just a little funny to me. Like, I don't know. Especially without aisles and stores. Like, if we're not going to stores, then why do we have genres anymore?

It's kind of, like, genres exist, I think, for, to find your people. Right? It's like you put up the posters on your wall because it also embodies like these are my people. Like I connect with people that listen to like, you know, this like the emo. I'm in the emo circle. My friends are emo and we all do our hair a little bit like this and this is like our thing. And it's cool. It's like no hate on that. Like I dig that. I want I want circles like that. Like we need that as humans. Right. We're looking for our tribe. But yeah, I think now it's just a little more hodgepodge. It's a little less like sad like for better or for worse. there's not a whole lot of like there's still like you know you might be like I'm like I'm the punk guy and my friends are all like we're really into punk like skate and like this is our thing like

there's still subcult like don't get me wrong subcultures are still there and they exist and they're important but yeah it's it's you're right there's not this record store like genres anymore it's a different thing

and plus pop really is just like popular music right at the end of the day it's like whatever is popular it becomes pop yeah totally I mean we'll go to this next segment I promise that we'll get back to

some more stuff but in this segment of what would Sam Harris from ex-ambassadors asked Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons he asked how on average how often do you get asked to sing renegades that's amazing

well first do you know the story of ex-ambassadors I will say I will hang my hat that I won't say I found them right because that sounds like a big thing to say but kind of, kind of a little bit. Like someone sent me one of their songs. They were already doing, like,

taken off in their own right. But then I showed it to Alex Kidd, and he signed them to Interscope Records. So I like, and I think I'm an A&R or something like that. I don't really know, to be honest. I haven't really looked into the fine print. But I hang my hat on that,

and I say that because Sam is so talented. What a great writer. Such a fantastic writer, great human, and his voice is incredible. His range, his, like, from like come on like talk about talent and showmanship nobody's actually no yeah yeah nobody's actually asked me to sing renegades um i wish they would i love that song it's a fantastic song um that's a really funny question i wonder if he gets asked to it's to sing radioactive a lot

or something i wonder where that came from i'm curious i do you get asked to sing radio I'll see if he responds. So, you know, going back to you signing, you know, there's one thing when you've now gone on a mission, you're struggling to find who you are, you start this band, you're back in Vegas, you know, some weird shit happens and you end up getting to sing some cool shows.

But getting signed to a major label being based in Las Vegas is really unusual. It happens that you've got to. guys were coming on the heels of the killers who were a massive Vegas band, so it's not totally abnormal to think that that could work. You know, the short question is, why is it that Mormon bands out of Vegas are so fucking good? And then the long question is, you know, what is it, what did it feel like to sort of break

out of this, you know, to aspire to do something, to be praying every night, to still be struggling with that and then to have something like this. And as a hip-hop junkie to have Alex the kid be the guy who sort of brings you in, it all just feels kind of nuts. Yeah, it is nuts, to be honest. There's certainly some vagus luck that was on our side. For sure. Throw that out the gate.

There are so many musicians that I meet that are incredibly talented. Some of the best songwriters in the world met super talented and their band just like for whatever reason, not the right time, not the right place. wasn't in the room, who needed to be in the room, there's that unknown factor, certainly there, always. We grinded really hard. We had great musicianship. All the guys were from Berkeley, great musicians, super tight, great performers, knew how to put on a good show. We practiced a lot, we took it really seriously. We practiced every day, nine to five. None of us had side jobs. We were broke-ass musicians, and then the way we stayed afloat, because none of us had rich families either,

was playing at the casinos. So we'd go beg the casinos to play their cover shows. And we do 50% covers, 50% of originals. And those would be six-hour shows. So then we got tighter and found our sound even more because we got to pick whatever influences we wanted and cover all these songs. And you're learning hundreds of cover songs.

You know, same thing the Beatles did. You know, it's like you learn who you are by playing all your contemporaries. So I think that helped all that. then we started to play shows in L.A. and Utah and Arizona and we'd just drive our car up and down. And we just happened to play a show at the Vipa room and we're having enough kind of buzz within L.A. that Alex the kid's assistant came to the show. And we had an EP and we had saved up money and recorded it in Vegas.

It was a pretty good EP. And it had its time on it. It had like Hear Me, it had Amsterdam, a bunch of the songs from our first. record night visions on it. He liked our show. He came to Alex the Kid and he said, hey, I saw this band. They were really good. Here's their EP. Alex happened to listen to it and sent like a one sentence email to the email. And it was like to my brother, who was our manager at the time, who's still our manager, and said, it was just like, yo, this is Alex the Kid. I like your riding. Want to come right? And he forwarded to me. He's like, I think this

is like Alex the Kid. And he's like, done Eminem. Love the Way You Live with Rihanna and Airplanes with B-O-B and Skylar Gray and our paramour, I think, I think Skylar was the writer on that, but I'm not sure. Anyway, so, long story short, I was like, yes, yes, of course, especially coming from like a hip-hop background. I was like, this is amazing. Yeah, of course. This is a dream for me.

Even if I'm just like a writer, writing hooks for like hip-hop, cool. So I went in originally being that. He was like, hey, man, you're a good writer. Do you want to, like, I'll give you a go. Why don't you stay here tonight and write? I'll give you, like, six hours, and you write to some of them. on my beats and then I'll come listen at the end of the day. So I was in his, you know, I drove up to L.A. stayed for a week. And, well, originally it was just a day. I wrote the best thing I possibly

could. I think I wrote two songs in one evening to two of his, two of his beats. He came in. Listen was like, cool, man. I'll, you know, I'll talk to you soon. I went home. Hey, what are you doing tomorrow? You want to come in? Yeah, I'll come in. What time? You know, he told me the time. I'm there. I just hustled. Awesome. So then that happened. I ended up staying for a month, writing every day from 6 p.m. to midnight. I wrote demons. I wrote radioactive. I wrote warriors. I wrote bleeding out. I wrote like a lot of these early. I wrote sucker for pain during that time. I wrote so many of these songs, not knowing for what, for who, but loving it. because there was now this hip-hop influence that was the missing element.

Like Imagine Dragons was like, what are we, find ourselves, it's time, it's like, fokey. I'm not really a fokey guy. I'm not even from the country. I'm from Las Vegas, but I like these indie bands that are fokey. Like, I didn't know who I was at all. So it was like finding who I was. And I needed that hip-hop production to find that. This is like the truth of Imagine Dragons.

anyway and uh and then eventually he was like yeah like i want to sign you and i was like i'll sign my band uh and he was like well do you want me to sign you or your band i said sign my band i've been with these guys grinding for years and my best friends they also had they were like they had a lot to bring to the table for sure not only had they all moved their lives up and rooted to las vegas from all over the place to be there so he said okay well I'll sign your band. We met with Inderscope, met Jimmy Iveen, played him some songs, and they signed us real quick. And that's how it happened.

Sorry for the long story. No, it's great. You and I've never written together in the same room, but I will say I did get a version of Sucker for Penn. And I remember being in a car trying to write verses. They were looking for features, and I was in a car with J. Cash, who I don't know if you know. I've written with Jay Cash Yeah And the two of us were writing in a car

parked outside of like some apartment building I don't remember why we were in the car trying to write But we were trying to write verses Because we needed it like really quick For whatever reason I think it was because it had just gotten The hook was just You know

For the movie What was that a soundtrack? What's it called? Maniac Something Suicide squad. And we're sitting in the car, and this car, this guy gets into a car and in the spot next to us. And it's one of those spots underneath an apartment building where the posts are too close, you know, where you can barely squeeze your car in.

And we're in a car, we're just trying to write. and this guy gets into his car and just takes off half of his, like backs up and just like backs out of his car and just like takes off half the car. Like I'm talking like he just bolted out, took so, and he just like, and he just slumped over in his car. Like he was a young kid. It was just like the worst day of this kid's life. And we're sitting there and all I think of is you singing the hook of,

Sucker for Pain. And so the odds of that lyric going, playing over and over and over. I don't know if Cass remembers that. But that's a true. That's a true story. This is as close as you and I have gotten into the same room, but kind of a strange truth. When you get to the next, well, we have to talk a little bit about radioactive because, you know, times a huge hit. You had a bunch of songs that are, who did, that did really well, but there's, there's doing well, and then there's breaking records.

Yep. I can tell you that story real easy. Yeah. It was written in that first month with Alex the kid when I was in there. And I've seen so many, I've seen crazy stories about this, by the way. I've seen that it was for a Spider-Man thing. It was never for a Spider-Man thing. I never knew about a Spider-Man thing, like radioactive spider or something like that.

it was literally Alex the kid came down one day when I was writing there he had the beat with Dubstep and Dubstep was kind of like it was just coming into pop culture it was like Scrillix was new and everybody was like

who is this crazy guy Scrillix and you know Dubstep had been around before right Scrillx wasn't the first to do it but he brought it really to the mainstream and so I think I don't know this but I'm guessing Alex was probably influenced by that. And liked the idea.

He always was about mixing hip hop with weird genres. Like hip hop with rock, for instance. He felt like I had a rock voice and he thought, this isn't interesting to me because it sounds like two worlds colliding in a cool way. And so when I heard the track,

I remember just being like, I don't even know what this is, but it's really cool. Like Alex, would you put way too much low end in everything he did? Too much, meaning like it was right, though because it was so weird. Like I would hear these songs and it just was like demons and radio, like all those,

his hip, his hip hip hip hip hip hip hip drums were so much low end and so hyper compressed and limited to like crazy amounts. But it would hit really hard. And he played me the radioactive beat and it was just like he went up. I wrote to it in one evening wrote versus chorus, bridge, everything, which is typical. I typically would write a song a day. He came down at the end of the end of the day. the day he listened to it and i remember it was both sitting there and i just was looking at him just

kind of laughing almost a little like this is so weird like what is this you know it just sounded like a monster kind of like just like a mutation um he didn't even know what to think of it he certainly wasn't like this as a hit i think he was like cool whoa like play it again then we listened again and i came back the next day and we were like that's really weird man and then we brought in my guitarist and he added guitars and it brought a whole it like brought kind of this chimed element to it and then we did this whole folky acoustic beginning thing because we wanted to to drop because it was like drops were interesting at that time like maybe we have a drop on this song and and and for the record nobody knew that song was going to be a smash except for me I will say I did know and I fought for it

I fought for it and I actually fought to put it first on the record because I was like I want to make a statement I want to come out the gates being like love it or hate it, here it is. Because that song was very divisive. I would play it for people and they'd either be like, what the fuck is this? I hate this. Play me like your Foki song or something.

Or they'd be like, I love this. Play this again. It was so divisive that I was like, all right, I'd been around music and straight up to know that the last thing I wanted was to play a song that a lot of people are like, this is good. Like I wanted to be like divisive. So we put it first on the record.

And I remember meeting with the label and they were like, this could never play radio. It never played top 40. We're going to go with its time first. It's the first single. It's time did good, right? It, like, made it up the charts an alternative. And I think it did a little pop, but not anything crazy.

And radioactive just made its way there. It just took over. It just, like, blew up on its own, started to get placed in all these things. People were just sharing it. And it became a single on its own accord. And then it played Top 40 Radio and did everything it did. And it's probably better that it was the second single in that sense, too, because you had established that you're an alternative band,

you had established that you had a direction. Not that that was necessarily the... I don't know if that really was the plan or not, but the release schedule couldn't have been planned better. It worked, and then demons followed it. You're right. Maybe if it was first, it would have been way too hard to follow. It'd be like one-hit wonder, impossible to follow this up.

It's always hard to... That kind of thing. To answer your question, by the way, when you ask Sam Harris, does he get asked, saying radioactive. He said literally always. And then lots of LOS. So we could talk about that offline. You know, you do it, smoke and mirrors is your second studio album. And it was successful, but it doesn't necessarily do it the previous album, did, not to say that it wasn't successful. It was successful. I had some hits on it. But still not the same thing that you had had. Did you ever

question, because the first album must have felt like, wow, this is easy. Oh, my gosh. Question everything. Yeah. We self-produced. And by the way, Smokamir's is all self-produced too. And that was the thing. It was like, now let's get in the studio by ourselves. Like, we can do this.

Let's go. We're like, look at this. We know what we're doing. Got in the studio. And by the way, it's probably my favorite record, potentially of ours. Like, I look back on it and I'm really proud of that record. I was in a really dark place at that time. That was me, like, my faith was just like, toilet.

It was just gone. And then I was like, no building blocks. I was like a child who, like, I built my whole life on God. And I built my whole life on like, this is the meaning of life. When you die, you see your family again. You get to hang out in heaven. It's going to be a great time. You're going to eat, like, pie every day or something.

Like, you know, it was great. It was great. And look, I wish that I could have that faith because what a fantastic way to live, right? But I lost all of that. And then suddenly I was like in this gigantic band and it was just like, what is the meaning of any of this? Like I was just so numb. I'd be on stage in front of like 200,000 people in Germany at Rockham Ring doing everything I could have dreamed. And I would just like, yeah, but I'm probably in it.

Like, I may die tomorrow and then nothing. So what like? So nothing. So everything, nothing. Nothing this, nothing now. I might as well, why not dance like a monkey on stage tonight, just jump off and run into the woods? Like, nothing anything.

Like, I was just like totally black, darkness gone. So then I, so that's what we were, so I was like, all right, well, let's write a record about smoking mirrors. Everything's smoking mirrors. Everything's meaningless. Nothing means anything. And we'll self-produce it. And we did it, and it was too dark probably for our audience

and not what they wanted. And a lot of, some got it, some love it, some didn't. It didn't do what night visions did. I learned a lot of lessons but I also, I don't regret it I don't regret it I look back and like I said it's probably one of my favorite records that we did

You've been very You're in a You know I called you a family man And your intro Because that's what you are And when you're in a dark place like that You were already It's you were already married and whatnot

How How much did your Family play in the kids? keeping you positive. Everything. My wife is the reason I'm here today. My wife has picked me up literally, physically, spiritually, socially, from the ground over and over for over a decade. That's beautiful.

So she is, she is, you know, she's my lifeline. She's my ultimate religion. She is, you know, my best friend, my confidant. She is also my, what's the word? the like someone she's your companion she's your muse

my muse yes all of those things and and some so certainly that and having kids of course like gives you added fodder

to live and to live health healthily you know yeah and it's still a battle for me I still I struggle with mental health that's no secret I've always talked about it

I struggled with it since I was young it's not new new to me I've been on and off medications. I'm always in therapy. I'm always high, highs, low lows. I don't know that I'll ever be this person. I don't know that I ever want to be this person, to be honest. Maybe I would actually like that.

My wife would probably like that. It's also irrelevant. Like what you want, you know, wanting gives the other person empathy for what you're going through. Like I recognize that if you, want that, I can feel for that. But I'm a on a scale of 1 to 10, this is as excited

and as angry as I get. I don't really fluctuate that much. You know what I mean? And I find that that's useful in how I live. But I also am in the studio sometimes with people who are bouncing off the walls. I'm like, man, if I had that energy, you know, maybe then

it'd be different. You know, so it's like... Yeah, you're probably so refreshing for people like that to be I enjoy your energy because I feel like it's very mellow and calming and like For better for worse, this is as excited as I get. You know, you, that's why I was asking about that because I think that the hard question, you know, it's easy to ask about like radioactive. That's an easy question.

You get asked about the hits constantly. But I think it's really important for songwriters and artists to know like, yeah, not everything we release is the same. it's easy to go back and look at a discography and be like, oh, that was easy. Look how many hits they had. No, man. The difference between when you wrote Radioactive to when you start working on Evolve is like night and day. And Evolve is the first time you really start adding in co-writers, like in mass.

Like you had obviously Alex, but it's different when you're starting to add, you know, all these outside writers. Was that a decision that you made or did someone say, hey, why don't you try it? Yeah, so we are, the formula for how we do everything is really unchanged, like genuinely, honestly, if I'm being completely honest with you. The only time that I've actually been with a writer who's doing melody work with me is Justin Tranter. And that was a fantastic experience for me. And I'm talking about dragon stuff, by the way. I'm trying to think of anything that I've done outside that's with other writers. But there's two things that are sacred to me.

lyric. I always write my own lyrics. And for the most part, to be honest with you, Melody, I really always write my own melody. So anytime you're seeing songwriters on any of these songs, they didn't write lyrics or melody, but they certainly did production and chord progression, which is songwriting, by the way. But I just want to be really clear on like what my role is. And also helping your job of your co-writer is to facilitate your best song. And Justin's really good at that. So not only that, Justin did help with melody. I remember sitting in the room with Justin on Believer and Justin helped put that chorus together melodically. So Justin Tranter is a force to be reckoned with.

He's an amazing writer. And he also is someone that I would read out. I would write lyrics and then I'd rebound them off and like, you know, what do you think about this? So he's the most collaborative I've ever been with anything. Other than that, I write all my own lyrics and melody in a room by myself. So when you see all these tracks that are like, imagine dragons and all these writers, it's because either the producer who worked with us on the track

has a bunch of writers that he works with that I don't even know. For instance, Joel Little, I remember so many tracks we did with them and then I'd see the songwriting credits be like five people under him. I never met him, never saw him, but they obviously did a great track with him

and then the band came in and did instrumentation on and I wrote lyric melody. So I think it's kind of a mis... I actually don't know what the perception is of Imagine Dragons, but it's not a bunch of songs, songwriter is writing. I write all the lyric and melody, except for Justin Tranter, who is fantastic and I credit him. Yeah, well, in this segment of what would Justin Tranner ask Dan Reynolds on

and The Writer is, he had a few questions for you. One being, how many bottles of chardonnade do you think you had to buy him over the years for your writing sessions? Oh, man. There was a phase that we don't speak of. that I think it was Evolve when we were doing Evolve, where Chardonnay was, there was a daily Chardonnay bottle. And I think we wrote Believer, Walking the Wire, I don't know why, there's something, a big one I'm forgetting, Enemy probably was written during that time period, Justin.

Well, that's another question he asked. So it worked. Whatever it was, it worked. He also asked, do you remember the original working title of Enemy that came out of your brilliant brain when you freestyled that main melody. What was it? I know what he's talking about. He needs to say, please ask him who's going to actually really bother me.

I know what he's talking about. It was something funny. It was something funny, and I can't remember it. All right, I'll find out. And maybe we'll get back to this one. Yeah, Justin's great. And I think, you know, again, like, one of the cool things that this generation does but is also infuriating is that the idea that if you

produce on a record that that entitles you to publishing and some of those you know you look at all those great songs from Motown and James James Jameson for every one of those baselines probably should have gotten some publishing like those those those those are singable bass lines Those are not just baselines, they're hooks. Like, if you write do-do-do-do-do-do, you deserve probably some... Some of it, you know. And so I recognize that our generation is very generous when it comes to publishing in that sense. But if you're in the business, you know when you see all those, you know, especially because people know your reputation.

Look, man, in that between... those two albums, you received the Hal David Award from the Songwriter Hall of Fame. Like from the Songwriter Hall of Fame, not from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame to show, like, hey, this guy's got potential to be in. You received the Songwriter award for active young songwriters. So I think anybody who knows how it works probably should have the correct perception, or they just have their own head in the sand, and that's their own issue. I would just add too that like genuinely the reason that that's important to me is twofold.

One, all the bands I grew up listening to that I loved, I knew that the singer was telling me their story and that was important to me. I think it's important with the band. I'm not saying like, of course there should be co-writers and there are incredible writers that have written songs and artists that perform songs that they didn't even write and it, but they mean it and they feel it works for them. I'm just saying for me, I knew the bands that. I really loved, like Kurt was writing those words. And that mattered to me. So I think it's important for our fans to know, like, these are not words that are written in a factory. It's like every word I write, I meant, I wrote, I wrote. And our band shares all the songwriting. We split all the songwriting. We always have. And it's worked great for us.

And they deserve it because all of them add to all the songs. They're my sounding board, always on lyrics, melody. They'll listen to be like, oh, that sounds a little cringy or something. I'll rewrite it. Or we'll work on a song and they'll write a bass line. They'll write the drums. They'll write, like, they deserve all of it. And it works and it keeps us together. I think one of the reasons a lot of bands break up actually

is this. Absolutely. This exact thing. We could start naming those bands, but everyone already knows who we're talking about. By the way, Justin responded that the word was celebrity. Celebrity was a band. Everybody wants to be celebrity. I thought it was salami, to be honest.

Maybe I was saying salami and he thought it was celebrity. He thought it was salami. The celebrity is better for sure. But I think enemy was probably the right choice, to be honest. Yeah, no question. It certainly beats salami. Although I got to say, if somebody came out of the record called salami. Debatable.

You know, believer, thunder, whatever it takes next to me, these like are, you know, those first three in particular, like launch pads like if that's when it's like okay so you went through your dark phase and then you kind of come out of it and you have these massive you know these are those are the arena songs where before that you're playing a part of a show that's in an arena but if you can get five hits like that six hits at that point seven hits maybe oh yeah I guess dimes all yeah you're at like seven hits at that point like you can headline arenas so like I imagine that there's almost no going back at that point.

Like, you know, it's got to feel like this project is no longer just in your head and it's owned by everybody. Like, I mean that by, like, your fans and, like, you know, that's out of your control when you have that many, like, really big hits. Let me say absolutely yes to that, for sure. The band is way bigger than I can understand. It's the reach of it is bigger than I have any, any understanding of. And I'm constantly reminded of that. We go to these other countries and it's just like, we go to like Prague and it's like two nights, 60,000 people, airport hangar. It's every word like deep cuts.

It's mind boggling to me. My brain doesn't comprehend it. But I will say that I also, I don't know. know what brought me to this thought, but, you know, and maybe it's because there's a lot of artists who have canceled tours recently. It's like, I think it's coming out of COVID, too, because people are like, they got so used to, like, seeing themselves happy and healthy at home, a lot of these artists, like, they were like, oh, man, I was home and I actually was happy. And they go back out on tour and they're like, wait, I don't like touring, actually. I'm going to cancel this. Or I'm, like,

mentally not well for this because it's really hard. It's really, really hard. Like, as I get older, I feel fine saying that. Like five years ago, I wouldn't say this because nobody wants to hear a musician cry about it being hard on the road. And I was like so worried that I'd sound like a whining musician. I don't give a fuck anymore. It's really hard to be on the road. It's, you know, you leave everything. And then you're just like existing in these hotel rooms can be incredibly lonely, especially when you're like living out of a van or you're living out of a bus. You just have no space. And it gets to a point where you're just like, I don't want to do this. I'd rather just like be the Beatles who just released songs at home and never toured.

And there's days where I feel like that, to be honest. I've come close to canceling tours because mentally I'm just like having to go on medication or something to get me through it. My voice is dead. And then it's like, but the show must go on. So then you have a doctor giving you like a prentazone shot in your ass to make it so your voice works.

You're just kind of like a monkey on strings at one point. We're like, like, so you see these artists just crash because they're just like people are just feeding them pills to just like keep you alive. And at one point you're like, wait, if I don't actually say that I'm dying, like, I'm going to like die. You know, people will just work me into the ground at one point. So I don't know what brought me on that tangent. But that being said, I'm not canceling our time.

And I'm grateful for it and I love it. But it's hard. It's hard. And so just anybody who thinks it's like, you know, it's not all rock star like party vibes. you know, at least not from what I've seen. It's hard to do that in this era. It's just not that time. I think we all wanted,

this generation of artists and writers, a lot of them have functioning families. You know, a lot of them like, you know, it's not, this isn't, the bands where you hear about, you know, the current versions of Motley crew, maybe they're on Xanax, so it's a different kind of thing

than it was like, you know, we're just not doing the same thing that that previous generations do. And I appreciate, you know, the artists and writers who are out there saying like, hey, it's normal to be fucked up in the head. Because that actually gives audience members something to relate to in a way. Yeah, I think it's important to be real. I've been on the road with my four kids, by the way. I just brought them across all of Europe.

Four kids, a two-year-old, twin four-year-olds. and a nine-year-old. I can't tell you how many times I had a kid throwing up on me in a car and then would like walk straight on stage, like change my pants, kid on stage. Yeah, and you're, and the thing is you're, you're trying to like sleep on either the plane or the bus or whatever and you've got a two-year-old who decides to wake up and wake you up and you're like, well, but that's better. You know, you obviously there's three more albums to talk about.

We don't have all that much time left. But, you know, Origins comes out. And one of the things that I really like about it is that you really stay loyal. You're not just loyal in your home life, but you're loyal in your collaborations, and you're loyal in your band. The fact that the band splits publishing, the fact that you use the same writers and producers when you use outside influence. But I also like that you actually have your wife as a co-writer on a song on that. And I just wanted to know, I don't know her. But that seems like that's the first time where all of a sudden she shows up as a co-writer,

or at least that I've noticed. So I just wanted to know. I'm so glad you brought this up because I first need a mark that absolutely she helped write lyrics and melody. So I was like, Justin Tramond is going on, I almost identify my wife as myself at this point because we've been married so long. It doesn't excuse it. It doesn't excuse it. But Asia is a songwriter, incredible songwriter. By the way, still to this day, wrote one of my all-time favorite records, which was

Nico Vega was a band that she sang for that was just fantastic, really heavy kind of rock band out of LA. Yeah, and they're, so she's co-written with me on quite a few songs. Yeah, Dole Knives, we did together, which is one of my favorite songs. She helped me write those verses. She's the only person that I've ever had write lyrics with me. Like even Justin, Justin would like, I would write lyrics and then I'd like ask Justin and he'd be like, yeah, try this or this. And melody, like I said, Justin would help a lot with.

Every big band wants to have their double album and here you go. Like, you know, Mercury Act 1, Act 2, it's really like the pinnacle of every, like, great band is that you can actually get to a point where you can do it. You're allowed to do it. You want to do it. It's like, it's all the things. I know that you've answered a lot of questions about this lately. But from like a songwriter perspective, is this something that you had always wanted to do? Yeah.

I mean, first of all, you know, my songwriting process is like a diary. So I write almost every day. This is the same since I was 12. And when I say I write, I write, I record production verse chorus. bridge always i have thousands thousands and thousands of these songs if you do the math it's 12 till now and it's it's really a disorder it's like i'm o c i for sure i've like oCD something crazy where i i have to complete a project right i have to have completion drives my wife crazy i like sit down and she'll be like hey it's dinner time you've been going for like eight hours and you come

down like i have to finish this because if i don't finish it then i can't even communicate with you all I'll be thinking about is how I didn't finish that. So that's the, it's the greatest weakness and strength that I have is that I'm a completionist and I work every day at songwrain because it's not work for me. I love it. It's my diary and I have to get the feelings out. When I say every day, it's like not every day, but it's close to every day, genuinely. Like there's not a week that goes by that I don't write like three or four songs.

So anyway, yes, it's maddening to me because every time we put out a round, I have written like 400 songs or 300 songs for that record. And then we dim it to 10. And then it's like people will hear those 10 songs. And it's like, it's hard. It's hard for me to do that. But as you're writing so much more, you saved. Like you were saying that, you know, you're writing enemy during the evolve era.

And then it comes out during this era. I mean, you obviously don't, these songs mean something to you. because you don't let it go. Are a lot of these songs written throughout the last 10 years? Is that where a lot of the music or is it all present? So these ones were all written actually within the last four years. Okay. So what is it like for almost 40 songs between two records.

It's crazy. So about 10%. 10%. When we worked with, because Rick Rubin produced this record, when we got with him for the first time, he was like, do you have any material, you know, going into the studio that we could listen to? And I was like, yeah, I've like 400 songs. And he was down to literally comb through all of them.

He was like, whoa, that's crazy. Did he write that much always? I'm like, yes, I write that much always. But I was like, but why don't I dumb it down to like 70? And I'll give you 70. Because Rick Rubin, I'm like, is Rick Ruben? I'm like, is Rick Ruben going to his 70 songs? I don't know.

He did. And he had responses to every single song. And we ended up recording, you know, like 40 or whatever that we put out. So crazy. I mean, there's a great expression that I try to live by just because it, I also have that, I like the completionist thing.

I've never heard of that word, but I, there's a quote that says, geniuses finished things. And to me, that's like, that is, that is the thing.

Like, there's so many, there's so many, so many talented people in this business and on this planet. And, and, you know,

when you hear about this person, you're like, man, I remember that kid. He was so talented. reality is that person probably just didn't have the ability to finish things. You know, like you have to finish through. You have an idea of finish the project.

That's a first step because that's when the editing starts. They need to finish that and finish that and stay with it. And have collaborators who believe in that. That's the next level of collaboration are those who believe that we can beat what we've done until like the artist is truly happy with the product. we're in the service business as co-writers as artists

we're in the service business for our fans as you know producers were in service of both the artists and the label but all of us need to finish projects we need to finish projects

so I like hearing that it explains more than you know than anything else but let's go to go to the next segment we're going to go five for five I'm just list five things and just tell me off the top of your head

what comes to mind. Let's start with the first one. Alex the Kid. Genius, for sure. Loyalty. I think loyalty comes to mind. He put his foot out for us in a way that nobody else would.

Our band almost broke up. I think if Alex's Kid was not in the picture, we would have never, genuinely we wouldn't be where we are, obviously, because he brought such a Sonic. sound to the band. But also just loyalty. I love him.

He's supported me for all these years and believed in us. And him and I still have a wonderful relationship with friends. So friend, loyalty, genius. How about Wayne? Wayne is my brother, family. Wayne is like my guide. He is my calming, uh,

reasonable, stable data sensitive kind we've never fought once not one time how about Ben Ben is Ben and I have an interesting

relationship that has gotten better and better throughout the years we're very different people that come from really different backgrounds and so we probably butted heads more than anybody in the band and we had a work through a lot of, we had to work through some pretty emotional stuff. We had like band therapy

and him and I really like had to do it. And I, I, I fault myself more than, I don't put fault on him. I'm a difficult person to work with if you can't tell. I'm very passionate. I'm very energized about things that I'm passionate about. Ben is a really loving, kind, sensitive soul. and we're really, really close. We've worked through a lot. So that's the... Daniel. Daniel is such a character.

First of all, he's an absolute genius. Like, textbook, like pitch, knows, like musical genius plays every instrument, knows every weird, like, musical lingo. knows tons of random facts about everything, just serious, genius, for real. And like, perfect time, perfect tempo, sweet as ever, like, always happy,

always a smile on his face. Wonderful. Like, I can't think of one negative thing to say about him. I really genuinely feel like I got super lucky with my band. Well, thank you for doing the podcast, man. You know, we didn't even talk about

really your philanthropy or your you've you've used your voice to actually make change and make society better. You know, your stance is for the LGBTQ community, especially

the culture that you came from. You know, um, you always, you're so openly, worldly. And again, it all starts with somebody who's obsessed with writing songs. And your voice has really, truly made a difference to people who don't even know who you are, what music you're doing.

Or, you know, you've made an actual difference doing music. that's all we all hope to do and I just admire that I admire your commitment to the art but I more so admire who you are in this in this business and I just I appreciate you I know I know we're just becoming friends but I really appreciate what you've done and and you're a you're truly the role model that I hope you know you know your kids I'm sure look up to you my son will when he's pat he just turned one this week so he's got some time but you know it's like you're a role model for for a whole generation of people and um and you just you're earning it and you're leading the way and i i just appreciate you appreciate you so thank you oh man damn dude thank you

was very kind of you and uh really enjoyed thoroughly enjoyed this and uh look forward to getting to know you better and uh all love man there we go very much super kind this episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. Shout out Paige McDonald, Kelly Fox, Casey Robinson, David Silberstein, Tim Kirch, Zach Weinstein. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.