And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 170: Jeff Bhasker

Episode Date: July 17, 2023

Today’s guest has worked with some of the world's most famous artists and left a lasting legacy on hip-hop. Raised in a musical household in Socorro, New Mexico, this writer fell in love with Jazz at a young age. Later on, he studied Jazz piano and arranging at Berklee College of Music in Boston, where his love of music quickly turned into his life's calling. After graduating, he worked his way around the Boston music scene, playing gigs as a keyboardist before he moved to New York City. There he started to play in more jam bands, and soon found himself infatuated by songwriting.A few years later, he moved to Los Angeles where he started to write demos for Diane Warren and Bruno Mars, slowly gaining recognition in the songwriting and producing scene. In 2008, he was introduced to Kanye West and the duo soon became close collaborators— he’s since worked on four of West’s albums: 808s & Heartbreak, My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, Watch the Throne, and Donda. This writer's work with West shot his career to new heights, making him a highly sought-after songwriter, instrumentalist, and producer. Apart from his work with West, our guest is also known for producing, cowriting, and playing keyboards for the Some Nights album by Fun., which skyrocketed the group into stardom in 2012.On top of all this success, today’s guest has won Grammy Awards for the songs “Run This Town” by Jay-Z, “All of the Lights” by Kanye West, “We Are Young” by Fun., and “Uptown Funk” by Bruno Mars and Mark Ronson, and received the 2016 Grammy Award for Producer of the Year, Non-Classical for co-producing Mark Ronson’s album Uptown Special and producing Nate Ruess’s album Grand Romantic. His work shaped the sound of hip-hop and influenced a whole generation of new producers.And The Writer Is… Jeff Bhasker! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was, founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership

of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right. It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's

sponsors Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends and repeat guest on the writer is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans. That's the kind of person Evan is in real life, and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work. Because of him, we have Songwriter of the year. Because of him, we have songwriter's added to the

album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker. You go check them out now. BMI is the champion of the creator, supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to navigate the industry plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers, just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today. You can learn more at BMI.com. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan.

Today's producing guru is a 15 times nominated five times Grammy winning evergreen crafting multi-genre songwriter. This jazz pianist turned beatmaker turned mega producer has talent that was recognized by some of the world's greatest musicians long before we the public knew his name. His hustle and willingness to walk through any door has provided our generation with not just hits but career-defining smashes. From Kanye to Jay-Z to Fun to Bruno Mars, his compositions are the ones new artists are still trying to emulate. all the way from Los Angeles by way of the rest of the world, this music legend is most importantly a good father. And the writer is Jeff Basker.

Ooh, I love that intro, Ross. Yeah, man. So, okay, usually I start conversations by, you know, starting from the beginning when you were born. But this is, I'm going to do something kind of different here, which is, in the hero's journey, there's always these Yoda. You know, like the hero's journey

always like there are all these people who kind of like dropped seeds along the way that was like, no, you can do this, you can do this. So I'm going to go backwards because here's this moment where you and I are having this conversation. But I don't know if you know we've actually met a couple times.

So I'm going to just go backwards for a second for you. Okay. I'm assuming you don't remember. So I'll just go. with this. In 2017, I won Songwriter of the Year for BMI. The year before that, you won Song of the Year for Uptown Funk.

And I remember being like, fuck yeah, that's Jeff Basker. Like, you know, that guy's awesome. And we had met once before that. And I didn't go up to you to say congrats, but right now I'm saying congrats on that. But part of the reason why I should have gone up to you is that

before that in maybe 2013 or 14 we were at a writing camp together that Benny Blanco and Stargate were hosting with Nate Roos and whatnot and you and Nate and Emil Haney were in one room and I was in a room with Stargate

and Benny and Charlie XX and like a few people came through to see Mickey Echo Amar Malch was there a bunch of like the crew I recall me bringing a smoke machine and lasers for our room. Yes, totally. And here's our room, which is pretty clean and like mathy.

And your room is like three days of running pro tools and probably tape machines. I mean, I don't know what the fuck you guys were doing. Sorry to swear so much. But you guys had like lasers and smoke, literal smoke, and you couldn't even see into the booth. I don't know how you guys were breathing, what you guys were doing. But in their looked like music,

and in our room looked like songs. And I remember being like, oh, this is really interesting. This is kind of inspiring. But even before that, the reason why that was cool for me was six years before that. Well, first of all, so we wrote at that camp,

I think we wrote Same Old Love, which was one of the songs that I got that I got an award for the year after. But six years before that, I get sent a track from our mutual friend, Dave Hoffman. Uh-huh. And Dave Hoffman goes like, hey, you should write your tracks. I was in a band.

So I wasn't really doing top 40 anything. I wasn't even aiming for it. I didn't even know what pop was. I was one of those guys that was like, oh, pop music is like what those guys do. So anyway, I got sent a track and

it was from you and I wrote this song that was awful. It was, it was, it was, it was right when Sean Kingston was really of those. Well, it was from when Sean Kingston was really big and I wrote

a song called Come on Shawdy and I spelled it like that. S-H-A-W-T-Y. And you responded to Dave with this. You said, that might be the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. Maybe it's his voice. There is something, though, to the Miami-Base approach.

White guys aren't allowed to say shorty, though. And when you said that, it was this moment of like, oh, maybe this isn't going to be as easy as I thought it would be. And also, I probably shouldn't appropriate and should probably, like, write my own song in this world. So you may not have any recollection of any of that journey, but you, I know I went backwards, but those like little moments are things we were like, oh, I want to do it the way that guy's doing it. So I'm going to start this by saying thank you.

Oh, my God. Wow, what a difference five years makes. Well, I'm glad you took something positive out of that. I mean, I think that's the goal. And it reminds me of kind of like an, an older kind of more, I think like when I was kind of a little more in Kanye's world, we had a culture of, look, no bitch-assness, like just say what you mean and understand that it's not to be offensive, just take something constructive out of it. Now I've kind of learned, hopefully,

to like, that my words fall a little more softly. You know, I think also like, like Mark Ronson's a great example of that. Like, you don't have to kind of be abrasive or, maybe too curt to get your point across necessarily but I'm glad you did take something positive out of that and definitely in this age of like overly politically correctness

like go ahead and say shoddy I mean at least say shoddy don't say shorthy you know like just say shoddy you spelled it right it's pronounce it right you know and you're writing for like a black guy so you can say shoddy right you're writing for him I mean white it's Quentin Tarantino right So I don't know what, you know, like, I think now I would just say, I wouldn't have to say that's the worst thing I've ever heard in my life.

But I do think there's something to. But it wasn't good. I'm not offended by that kind of comment. And I think there's like there's. I feel like maybe I've gotten soft in my old age now. Yeah, maybe there's like a line because at some point, it wasn't like you said. guy should quit. And I'm glad that, you know, it was, you didn't

know who I was or anything, and there was no way you would. And at the time, I don't even know if, this is like January of 2008, I just looked at the email because I was like, I have to, I have to mention this. And I don't mean to start your interview with it, but I have to, had to look it up.

And that's even before I think 808 and heartbreaks came out. You know what I mean? So at the time, I think that was like the year it came out. And I think that's like, and I remember Dave. I think it would have been, oh, I see when you got the Dave Hoffman, right? Sorry, not to interrupt you. What were you saying? No, I'm, I was just going to say, like, at the time, I was like, hey, this guy plays piano for keyboards for, um, for Kanye.

And you say, you pronounce it Kanye. That's correct, correct? I don't think there's a wrong way to say it, but definitely people in his circle would say Kanye. When I, here that you were doing keyboards for Kanye, it's like, it's like, man, this, like, how cool is that? I mean, I'm playing in the Viper Room with a, with a band that is dying. You know, it's like, that was so rad to just even play in the sandbox at that point. I mean, it was definitely super cool, definitely, like, one of the great highlights of my life. But I don't think it was, you know, I mean, everything has its, like, place in the timeline of each of our evolution. I definitely played many a shitty gig for four people in my lifetime.

And I don't know, just like reading a little about you and like doing your one-man show and doing everything. Like I also think it's awesome to, this conversation reminds me of the kind of a thought I had about how something I'm trying to cultivate now is like doing your own thing. Sometimes like when you work with these giants, like you're kind of in their shadow to some extent, you know, so it's a nice shadow to be in, and I definitely, like, soaked up. It's not just a shadow.

It's more like a solar system, right? And there's one sun in that solar system. But to become your own sun and make your own solar system, that can't happen. You can't be your, you can't be. There's only one sun in Kanye's universe, right? Or any great, I mean, mega artist, like we're in service to them,

and we're there to kind of help cultivate their vision add to it something. Our gravitational force has an effect. It's all a balance, right? But it just made me think about that that while I see your point in that moment, right, but maybe for like people listening out there to realize like every part of the journey is really important. And wherever you're at, whether you're in the room with Kanye, or winning BMI Songwriter the Year Awards or you're playing at your gig for seven people.

Those are all moments that are important. And in some ways, the struggle part is the more important that you'll look back on and say, damn, like, that was the shit. That was the exciting part. You know, I think it's like sometimes I create to like, I love watching these like mountaineering movies, you know, and like mountain climbing and Alpine, like the alpinist and watching people climb Mount Everest.

And I think it was touching the void where he mentions that once you get to the top of the mountain, you feel like there's going to be this, oh my God, like this elated feeling like that you're overwhelmed with by having achieved your goal, standing at the top of this vista, and at least to his point of view, he was saying it's really not like that. You're just kind of like, I'm just standing here on something. It's not this, it's none of that. And the actual part, it's that cliche, that it's the journey, not the destination, you know, like that it's the struggle and the climb that is the exciting part.

So that's just kind of one thought kind of to that scenario. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about your struggle to getting to the top because you get to the top a few times. And you've done a couple interviews recently that go through a lot of your past. So I don't want to necessarily rehash that. You had a great interview with Bob Left sets. There's some where you go through a lot of your journey. But you come from parents that are not musicians.

Or I guess they weren't professionally musicians. Were your parents musicians? No, no. But my mom has, my mom's dad was kind of an amateur musician who learned by ear and had a thing, you know, and like my mom's brother, like my uncle, like, he's still like into music and there's a musical talent there that's, you know, by no means any, nothing ever went professional or, but there's like an ear for music. there? So more than my dad's side or something like the musical side definitely comes from my mom's side. As a pianist, that's the piano is not an easy instrument. To me, I think guitar is so much easier, you know, the shape of a major chord is the same all the way up and down the neck. It's a, it's a lot more intuitive to me than piano, which I've played for years, but never had your skill set. Somebody is teaching who,

Who teaches you piano and who convinces you that practicing is worth your time? Yeah, I mean, it's funny having that perception, but my first experiences on the piano were, you know, when my parents got divorced, I think from one of my birthdays, my dad rented me a piano when I lived with my mom. So there was this piano in the house. maybe I'm like five years old or something. And I would just pluck on it and do just my own compositions. I would kind of like express myself,

but it was nothing like no one would ever look at that and be like, wow, this kid is like a prodigy or I got talent or he's going to be something. And I took piano lessons and I think I would, it's funny you bring up the practicing because I wouldn't practice. I was much more interested in exploring. boring and practicing, you know.

And it's only now, like, in my later years. And I guess when I went to Berkeley also, that I started practicing, but everything was, like, technically very backwards with what I was doing on the piano. And I was in jazz band in high school. That's when I, you know, my mom played a little bit of, like, kind of little jazz arrangement of,

of tenderly and hearing those harmonies kind of were always in the back of my head and then I would take piano lessons later when I moved with my dad in New Mexico from like, you know, local, it's like nothing like not like Nadia Boulanger composition class. It's just the piano class that, and a great teacher too, not to say anything bad about it.

her, but I'm just saying it's just a normal piano teacher. But she, this is Schuster, because I would never practice that much, because I was always interested in just messing around. I spent a lot of time at the piano, but not practicing my piece that I was supposed to be practicing. And I would always be messing around, because her piano sounded good to me. I would like be messing around before the lesson, and then we'd get into the lesson. And one day, she gave me a cassette tape, and she said, here.

I think you'll like this. And one side was Oscar Peterson Night Train. And the other side was Chick-Correa, him to the Seventh Galaxy. And I put it on and I was like, oh, hell yes. This is what I've been searching for. And it kind of just got me into jazz. So I kind of pursued jazz and then just skip to like going to Berkeley.

That's when it was like, oh, yeah, your technique is all jacked up. So then I was like, okay, I got to practice. So I was practicing a lot, but even then I had to learn how to practice, right? So it's been quite a long journey for me that's still continuing. I mean, I'm still like over COVID was another opportunity to kind of get a really great piano teacher to kind of really then start even doing more with my technique and practicing. So it's a lifelong thing I'm pursuing. But I guess maybe one thing I did practice was just,

Being at the piano and expressing myself through the piano, I think ironically perhaps it's the not practicing and pursuing what, I definitely was on this journey to become Oscar Peterson and then kind of was like, shit, I don't think that is going to happen right now. And I've kind of chosen this path in my career. I need to figure out some, I need to just start expressing myself. like that's something like they don't teach you at Berkeley, right? Or maybe at a conservatory either, how to be an artist.

And it was, I even had, and then I lived in Germany one year, my senior year of high school, I was an exchange student in Germany, and I did find an amazing, I had this amazing host family that helped knew I was into jazz and music, and that was my opportunity to go seek out jazz. And they found this amazing piano teacher for me, this guy, Fri-Dank, who started playing piano when he was 18, kind of late in life, but he had rafts of Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans' transcriptions that he could play.

He had an Oscar Peterson cover band. And, you know, he was a big influence on me and so, such a great teacher for me at that time. But he did say one thing that I ended up kind of contradicting was he was like, you know, once you go through all the piano music, Faskel Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Rahmaninov, Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, all this stuff. And then you go through transcribing all these great jazz pianists, then you will have your own style. So it was kind of in my head that I have to do all that before I create a, before I have a style. And I, in the end, I think that was wrong, you know, like, I think. Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Sorry, go ahead.

No, what are you going to say? Well, I mean, there's, I remember hearing an anecdote about John Lennon saying, you know, what kind of music, if somebody asking him, what kind of music does he listen to? And he said, do you think Picasso is going to museums looking at other artists? He goes, I don't need to listen to that. Then I lose my artistry in it. I don't know if that's true either. I think that there's probably somewhere in the middle there, but. Right. Maybe later, like later when you're like once you've kind of, I did some, right? I tried. But if you're going to spend all your energy trying to be someone else, you, you know, I visited Barrett Freidonk later in life. And he was trying to learn how to do the, he was playing an organ and doing foot pedals and everything. And he was playing some of his music. And I was realizing, oh, wow, he didn't creatively evolve. You're not, and now, now, now, now, now,

like he's much older. Like, when are you going to get through all this music? Guess what? It's infinite. You're not going to get through all of it. Like, you have to also cultivate this idea of, like, what's my point of view? And also, I think, furthermore, one thing I kind of in my production style, and I think, you know, as a writer, like, sense, like, the focus of this is in the writing, I think

a lot of times, like, creativity can be based on, like, accidents, right? And that's kind of what poetry is. It's kind of like what doesn't make sense. Like the making sense of it or doing things correctly is not the interesting part. That's what a joke is, right? The joke is not, the punchline is not what logically is supposed to happen. It's something that you could never imagine happened. It's the different thing.

And that's a good engine for that is just doing shit wrong. You know, so doing shit wrong is vastly underrated. And it's, you know, it's another cliche that's like, you learn by making mistakes, you know, but that's really true. And like making those mistakes and examining those mistakes and making sure you don't discard some of the amazing mistakes, right? Because they're all really, mistake is just a concept. Really, it's just another option.

And what makes it a mistake is what society, or a culture or an establishment, like, defines as a mistake. But being an artist is all about, yeah, would you look at a later Picasso and say, that's good painting. Like, to an older painter, they were, like, trying to do realism, right? And then the camera was invented,

and they were like, well, the camera can just do this infinitely better than you're going to. so what's the next level of painting? And there are just so many dimensions and, I mean, dimension is just the best word to use because there's so many perspectives to look at something, and I think that's definitely something I've tried to cultivate in my life is how do I do this more artistically?

How do I do things more outside the box and not what someone is going to accept, which sometimes is a harder road to travel because a lot of times I'll kind of get like a scratch head look like that's your idea. Like people don't get it often, but I think you have to kind of, I try to stay. I've learned more and more, especially after you have some success, to trust that part.

But even now, sometimes you have to be like, damn, yeah, I'm going to stick to this. and that's my point of view. Yeah, I think having, this is where collaboration is exciting, more so than writing by yourself, is that when you make a mistake, you're surrounded by people who say, no, no, no, keep that. Absolutely.

Versus if you're alone, you know, you need perspective, and the only way can get that alone is time, and if you have any sort of sense of urgency or ADD, you need to be in a room for other people who might be able to point out that mistake is not a mistake. That mistake is our new hook. Totally agree. Right. No, you're so right about that. And that is a beautiful thing about collaborating. You're right. Hey guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership of their

copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral financial statements or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 8444 for all.

music. That's right. It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Hey guys. I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends, and repeat guests on the writer, is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans.

That's the kind of person Evan is in real life, and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work because of him. we have songwriter of the year. Because of him, we have songwriters added to the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. BMI is the champion of the creator, supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to

to navigate the industry plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers, just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today. You can learn more at bMI.com. when you you came up um before we get to you know the commercial stuff you know when you went to berkeley as a jazz pianist the collaboration in the jazz community is is often similar to what you're talking about about the solar system like when you think of oscar Peterson you think of chikere or any of these guys they all have these ensembles and in that ensemble sometimes you'd end up with

a young Coltrane or a young Miles Davis. But, you know, those people also had to go out. But it's really interesting to start. It's not like classical music has that same history where you've got an ensemble that supports the sun, you know, like you were talking about, the solar system. And you came up in a world, that jazz world is that. When did you first start actually playing in ensembles?

versus playing alone at home at piano. Well, for sure, in my high school jazz band and also concert band, right? That was like, and especially like in my little town. You know what happened? The story was kind of like, there was like an eighth grade talent show. And I was a little more into like speech competitions

and like we had this thing called the declamation contest that I would kind of crush every year because I had this book called Revolting Rhymes by Roald Dahl that had these really witty, twisted versions of fairy tales that always slayed. You could either be in serious or humorous category, and I would just use one of those every year. And actually, I had this great teacher

when I moved to New Mexico in third grade that helped me to my first one was Casey at the Bat. And I got second place with Casey at the Bat. but anyway I would do these kind of speech things but I would just play piano for myself

and then I played clarinet and like the concert band thing but I saw this kid playing like a keyboard he played piano played a keyboard or something and everyone was clapping and I was kind of looking at him going no no no no man

that's my thing like that's my thing and another friend of my dad's son bought a synthesizer and that's just that word synthesizer was like, I want a synthesizer, you know. And then I found out that in the jazz band, there was a jazz band in the high school,

and I was like, oh, I want to do that. I want to be in the jazz band. And they had like an ESQ1, like an insonic ESQ1 keyboard. And I thought that was like the coolest thing in the fucking world. But then that was like, you know, four years of high school jazz band

and concert band, and even one year we had like a theory class. We got this new teacher who was actually a pretty smoking, like, jazz drummer and went to like FIT, was it? No, not FIT, like these Drum Institute, Guitar Institute here in L.A. And would go check out Vinie Kahliauta and was really into Frank Zappa and stuff. And was like him kind of arriving in my high school. I think it was maybe my sophomore or junior year. really like

stimulated like he was kind of like oh this kid's into like jazz and I show him Dave Weckle and he was like oh and like we'd kind of like you know like there was still kind of a teacher student boundary there and I think he was kind of

but at least you know there was a resource there for me to to be around and there was even also like there's a university in my town where they had a little jazz lab and the teacher there kind of embraced me, Mikey Eaturro, R-A-P, and I would kind of play in that ensemble also,

which my teacher played the drums in, so it was kind of a killing band because he'd kicked this. And a lot of it was revolved around like big band, you know, so kind of to your point about these movements and kind of the crossover between classical and jazz music,

I think when I went to Berkeley, it was also revolved around me, I mean wanting to be a composer. I wanted to compose, and part of my kind of interest was in modern classical music also. Compose what?

Like, compose... Compose, like, serious classical and jazz music. Like, Stravinsky, and Gill Evans and and also like the bebop movement that was a movement of a

where they kind of invented a new language you know like I love how Igor Stravinsky there's a story about him like crossing the border and on his passport it says music inventor of music and they're like what does that mean and they're like I'm an inventor of music

and they're like you mean you're a composer. He's like, no, I'm an inventor of music. And they're like, you mean you're a composer? And they're like, no, I'm an inventor of music. And they're like, just fucking say you're a composer. And he's like, no, I'm a fucking inventor of music. You know, like he would not, and I love that it was that clear in his mind that

he was inventing new language, a new vernacular. He was inventing his own style of, and it really sounds like, sounds like that. It's like, but, and I think there may be more crossover between jazz and classical kind of traditions of music than we think. I think we think of it like that because of, and I'm not sure, I'm not a musicologist or a music historian, but I feel like there are enough kind of anecdotal things I've read where, you know, we think of classical music as this thing, we go to a hall, they rehearse, they, we know it's so codified now, the process of it, but I suspect that back then it was much more improvisational and casual than we perceive it,

you know, in retrospect, because it was just like a thing people did. I guess it was in courts of like royalty and also in church and stuff. But, you know, everyone, I mean, a piano was like an Xbox or a television back then, right? It was basically what you had, even up until the 40s and 50s. It was the thing you had. That's why in every home there was a piano. because that was the thing you had that you could kind of entertain yourself.

Everyone, not everyone, but most people could play. Most people could read music, you know, because that was one of the few kind of extra kind of things like entertaining and satisfying things you could do, right? So in music history,

I remember there was this anecdote in one of our books where it described this person's who is standing outside of a house listening to somebody play piano for hours. And in our world now, we're so used to recorded music being part of everything. You go into a grocery store, you go into an elevator, you go into a car. You just open up your window. Somebody driving by is playing recorded music. But the idea that before a recording of a music, either you played or you heard somebody play or it was silent.

It is it. And you know what? that makes me think of. It's like in our world now like publishing. I was trying to explain publishing to someone the other day and it was like publishing. But back then that was like publishing the sheet music was like making a record almost because you're like disseminating this music somehow. And now it just seemed we kind of take it for granted because that part of it doesn't necessarily, it doesn't matter as much because it's recorded. But back then publishing was the way that you shared the music

because people would get it and they would play it or they could send it or they could have it in their wagon that they were going to Oregon or wherever they're fucking blazing a trail to and that was their and there was hit songs right

like how do you play it and you there you go and you can play it I guess it's a fascinating subject right and it was on paper and it was in a book the word publishing makes a whole lot more sense when it's on paper and in a book versus when it's

recorded audio. I've been watching this documentary that I was telling you about. One of the weird things about music history is like radio, people would play live. Jazz, country, they would play live

on radio. They never thought to play a record. Even when records existed, they listened to records at home, but when you listen to the radio, each radio station would have their house band. They would have their house jazz, They would have their house classical, their house country.

It wasn't until really World War II that because people were abroad, that's when they started playing records on the air. And that's when like, you know, then it gets into a bunch of race reasons why some people join BMI versus ASCAP and all this other stuff. But it's pretty fascinating that when you think of what we do for a living now and creating a record and that's what people hear, Man, we're at 80 years. It's a baby industry.

Yeah. Well, and it's gone through, and now with streaming and you're making this podcast, it's kind of, like, exploded to another level where, I mean, think about, like, I don't know how old you are, but I'm 48, today, actually. Today's my birthday. Oh, my God. Happy birthday. Hey, thanks.

You know, but, like, I was talking to someone under the other day about, like, what's the first CD you? but you know remember like when CDs came out we're still like kind of in this realm of like having to go by the physical recording versus now what was it what's that what was your first CD my first CD it was it was uh it was uh jack de jeanette parallel realities it was jack de jeanette herbie hancock pat metheny trio which was fire and they just overdub the bass synth bass it was so it was so great um great album but now you just have kind of access to not just the entire like history of recorded music

YouTube and SoundCloud and the music that people are just creating every day it's just like on overload like the amount of recorded content period like not just music like that you can access um you know for better and for worse I think there's definitely a really positive, I mean, the aspect of that, but maybe it's a little fuddy-duddy, but I think people, especially younger people, should contemplate

that what the value would be of contemplating one thought deeply for a long time before your mind got distracted, you know, and dig deeper. Explain that, because yeah, your records all sound like they took time. That's one

there's so much detail, there's focus, the sound design, the sound quality, the performances. I'm sure some of the performances were off the cuff because, but that would be a choice. Your records in particular sound like focus. That's funny. I appreciate you saying that. Sometimes I feel like they're the opposite. Like, you know, like try sleeping with a broken heart, for example. the way that came together was like, you know, I was working with Kanye,

we would get in the studio daily and come up with ideas. So I'd kind of, maybe I'd have a couple ideas in my back pocket so that I wouldn't just feel just so put on the spot. I'd have like a few themes or kind of musical things going. And one of them was that kind of the music to try to put into the broken heart, which he was kind of like, cool, but it's, didn't really resonate with him in the moment. And once the session was kind of over, I would try to do my best Kanye impression and utilize the studio and get something done. And that one was

really resonating with me. And I made Trisleven the Broken Heart out of it. But, you know, even like the pass of the keyboards, like the second verse, the synth goes off and does this like crazy shit. Because it was all just one take of me just playing the Moog and the Juno at the same time. And I just left And I do actually try to leave a lot of the quote-unquote mistakes or I don't always try to meticulously clean it up. But maybe it's more like a painting or a collage to the point we were just talking about where I do like to live with the recording for a while and feel it and feel what resonates with me in different ways, you know, or in a good way.

way or a bad way or like little by little kind of take away the things that maybe aren't mistakes but distractions from what I feel like this heart and soul of the record or the song is you know maybe that's kind of what I'm that hopefully what I'm trying to do when I're not hopefully what I'm trying to do but what I'm trying to do is hopefully make a point you know and I guess what at the point I was making with that last comment was, like you mentioned like ADD, you know, it's like I think when you can move on and move on or there's also just an avalanche of content

that's coming your way that it's a certain way, like trap high hats. Like now it's like, okay, your song, your record better be relevant in this way because there's this avalanche of music and especially like an A&R or a label, it's just like, well, if it doesn't sound like this, we can't use it. or literally like they're just looking at the likes of everything,

but rather like contemplate deeply for a long time, maybe in kind of a zen or meditative way, what your point is beyond just throwing a trap high hat on your beat, you know, like because you have to out of fear of it not being relevant or whatever. That's kind of my own projection, because for a while I kind of felt like that. I was like once we moved kind of moved on from the 808's Dark Fantasy Kanye era, where our influence kind of like influenced a big era of music, but then it went into the fruity loops and the laptop and that system. It kind of took on its own different character.

and we're banging out on the MPCs and dusty samples and it still had a kind of a foot in this 90s hip-hop aesthetic that didn't always resonate. I think it's kind of coming back a bit now, but for a while, if it didn't sound like a very kind of rigid and that really fat digital fruity loops sound, which I think is awesome. And I'm so, I really love a lot of that music,

but it wasn't my, it wasn't like my kung fu you know and um but your kung fu's a little bit you know

it's all over the place because what you can do in a room with a Kanye which is you know I feel like the two of you together on the records must have been running around a room

playing different parts and everyone doing a little bit of everything am I right or is that because that's so To some extent, but you know what? It's funny as another kind of bring it back to the songwriting focus. It really started with a piano and him singing a melody. And we very, very intentionally, he very intentionally imposed those constraints on us, on our practice,

especially in the 808's like aesthetic that it was, I think that's kind of partly why he used me, because he saw I was really interested in songwriting, and he was kind of, that's a part that maybe got a little overlooked in the documentary, which is fantastic, I think, about him on Netflix, was his kind of love of melody. But it makes a lot of sense because, you know, melody is ultimately, at least is kind of my theory about it.

You know, when I kind of like, my grandfather, who was a psychiatrist one time, I kind of would share some of my songs I was working on. And he's this old Indian guy who was like in his 90s and maybe a little baffled by what I do. And I performed this piece that I had that actually was one of the favorites of Kanye and would make me wrap it for Jay-Z and Beyonce

when they'd be in the room. He said, Jeff, do that, do that. do that joint and I'd be like like okay I'm gonna rap for Jay Z right now but I was like this thing said you are a Christian I am a Muslim you live with Christians

I live in the slums I am a Hindu you are Jewish I have the weapons hidden in the Buick blah blah blah but you know I did perform that from my my Indian grandfather

who was a Hindu and had to flee Lahore where we were from because of the partition and the Muslims and the conflict between religious segregation. And it really resonated with him and he said, wow, you're not just a cigarette smoking musician. You're a poet. And he pointed out how rhyming is a device that helps you remember. And it also made me kind of contemplate, well, melody is also that device that helps you remember. and then it made me think of how these epic poems like The Odyssey or these kind of like what they call epic poems sometimes be called the song of Homer or the song of this

and it made me think and again I'm not an academic but made me think that they probably had melody to it too in order because it was an oral tradition in order to remember these hundreds of lines of poetry because it wasn't written down. It was an oral tradition. And that's what we do as songwriters. We create lines of poetry set to melody that stick in people's head. And these are the devices that make them stick in their head.

It's quite a human kind of, it's like this, it's just this capacity we have. So I got a little off track, but it was kind of the focus on that. I think that maybe Kanye kind of realized the melodic part because he's such a messenger, right? He is a guy who contemplates deeply and then wants to transmit his message. And perhaps he realized just knowing him and kind of the multifaceted, truly genius he possesses

is that that melody is an enhancement to the, the, message. Yeah. And he even relayed once, you know, he that, when he, he like did this stint, I think, in like late registration where he opened for the stones and maybe for you too. And he noticed that all their songs, like everyone's like singing along with them. And then he'd get up there and be rapping like rafts of words and people were just like staring at him. He couldn't connect. So you really notice it in a soccer stadium, right? Or a, at a big rock concert where you need that melody to unite everyone.

And that was kind of, I think he did that a lot on graduation. And then Ada Waits was this kind of like really stepping into it. And now look at all rap. Most rap has some kind of melodic component, but it's not just this kind of like random thing or people who were confounded by like, why are people using autotune? It's like, well, it's not about it being cheating or this or that,

it's now you're creating a melody that is going to actually enhance the stickiness of that message in a human's brain so there's a whole schick on that the um the the melodies that come out of fun specifically we are young that is the that is such an exceptionally long chorus melody and then you repeat it because if you just give the listener a chance to listen to it twice, they'll never get it out of their head. But that is not, you know, that is not bubble gum pop. That is a sophisticated melody. Well, there's the genius of Nate Ruse, right? You know, I mean, he is just like all those melodies, you know, every melody on that album came from his brain. And that's, he writes, he has just such an incredible writing style where he, he doesn't really play an

instrument or need an instrument to accompany him, he writes the whole melody and the lyrics in his head and maps it all out. And then he's like, okay, here's the song. And then you kind of fashion something around it. But the defining core guiding backbone of that song, he has constructed meticulously. And I just think he is just such a genius of songwriting. And like you, like you, you, like, you say it's not, I don't think bubblegum's necessarily a bad word either. I think there's like catchy things and devices, but it's definitely a bit more baroque and kind of intricate and so beautiful and moving and full of emotion and peaks, fire, we get brighter than the sun. It's like so cathartic and, uh, and every detail is important and not a throwaway thing.

that's an awesome example you know but that's when yeah you know obviously it's like

your discography is long enough that we could do this for forever because I feel like there's so many there's so many twists and turns

do you ever worry that the well is run dry oh man every time I wake up no I'm just kidding no do

are you Are you hard on yourself? I mean, between Kanye and fun is like not a, you know, there's, in between that, you still have songs with Beyonce. You still have songs with a huge, huge artist. So it's not like, even if they weren't necessarily as big as some others, you know, I just wonder what happens in between for you? How do you deal with the ups and downs of the, you know, music industry?

Right. Well, and just being creative, right? I'm sure that's something that every creative person struggles with, no matter who they are, to feel like, yeah, the well's dry or how am I going to get up for this? But I also like, I don't struggle with that maybe as much as I used to and kind of back to this idea of cultivating and developing your artistic practice or if you're thinking of yourself as an artist

and thinking of it as a practice and kind of going in and making the donuts. You know, like, I think, I love this quote. I think it's Chuck Close, who's the, is it Chuck Jones or Chuck Close, who said, inspiration is for amateurs, you know. A lot of people want to be inspired, you know, as a professional songwriter, and most of these people, like, in our town here in L.A. where we're like going in these rooms and doing this thing, we go in and make the donuts.

Like you go in and, you know, you might write a hundred bad songs, but you go in there and you write that song and you do your practice. And you become, I think you become creatively stronger by being willing to put yourself out there, create, going back to like your example of the song that you sent me, that's all part of the practice

and that's why my criticism it wasn't a condemnation and you understood that it was a critique and as part of making the donuts like yeah this donut is like the hole's too small or too big

but we're in there making it and you don't become a great creator by sitting around waiting for a great idea to hit you you become a great creator by making a thousand shitty ideas and one fucking life-changing, amazing one that rips people's soul out of their body.

Yeah, but you're, you know, some of your years where you end up with, you know, obviously when you work with one artist, you're part of the whole album cycle, all kinds of things. And album cycles now are all messed up, so who knows what that is. But, you know, there are these years where you'd have, the same year that you had,

we are young in some nights, you also had a girl on fire and just give me a reason, for Pink and, you know, locked out of heaven for Bruno. That's all the same year. You know.

Right. Well, you catch a, you catch a groove and everything. I think the thing is like, when you look back on something, you can say, oh, there was like all this good stuff.

There was a bunch of shitty stuff too that didn't get released and didn't come out. And like maybe that, I think at that time I was probably just like working a lot more. I didn't have as much going on in my life other than doing that. And I was making hay, right? You make hay when the sun is shining and you're also, I think it's a momentum thing. Like once you get one, then everyone is a lot more open to being like, oh, maybe that is a

good idea. Maybe his ideas are good. Right. And if you start to cool off a little, then you come back and people like, oh, yeah, I don't know about that. But when you're on fire, this writer's on fire you know they'll say well whatever you just open your fucking mouth i'll record it you know like and and and they're that's funny that's what they ask you to add huh that's when they ask you to that's when they ask you to add the high hats is when you come back and and it's like they're like well maybe if you added that that would be fresh exactly exactly instead of being like give it to me your sounds like uptown funk you know that's a song where it doesn't, it's not trying to be now at all.

Like it's just trying to be, it's a bunch of guys who have the skill set to write a classic record and then you just record it with equipment and mixed in the way people listen to music now. But I don't listen to that record and feel like it's not the most relevant song of that year. Totally. I mean, the word funk and the idea of doing like a funk song was definitely like, out of left field, like, very surprising that, you know, it was almost kind of like a kiss of death. If you'd, like, put funk or something in there. It was, like, not like a, not like an appealing thing. But that kind of goes back to, like, also, like, the mistakes or the rough edges of what's the personality. Like, when you said, I think you're nailing it, when you say, like, three guys in a room, you know, that also that are, they're having fun,

vibing off of each other. And that that comes across on the record, right? that comes across on not just that record, but for me as a producer, you always want to catch that lightning in a bottle. That's why you're like, you have your engineer, like, always being ready to record, make sure that mic is just ready. Like, make sure everything is ready. Because when that lightning hits, when that moment hits, you got to catch it. And you can overwork something, right?

And that was the challenge with that record is we had an amazing first, like, 45 seconds. This shit, that ice cold Michelle Fife for that black gold. This swamp, them good girls, them hook girls, string. Gangsta bitches shining, running, living it up in the city.

I got Chuck Song with St. Laurent. I got to kiss myself, so pretty. And I was like, okay, and then maybe we came up with the too hot thing. And then it was like, then we got to the, okay, we're going to do this. And then we got up to like, okay, what's the chorus going to be? And then we worked on that song for like nine

months because we were like, how are we going to make this song deliver? It's got to keep delivering. It can't just peak in the first 45 seconds. That's the excitement in the room and the energy of it is carrying it. Now, how do we put everything in balance and it keep going? And it's funny, what ended up happening was it doesn't have a chorus. It has a dance. And it was like, but who decided that in the group like you've got a super crew of songwriters who's the one who's saying now that's not a chorus no that's not a chorus like are all of you in on the same page or was it you or mark or was it was it Bruno who or Phil who's well you know what Bruno and I go way back to when he first moved to L.A and we kind of learned how to write songs together

a lot of through a lot of feedback and kind of mentoring by this guy, Steve Lindsay, who had this kind of songwriting, secrets of songwriting, guidelines of song, hit songwriting. Let's just say hit songwriting more specifically, not just songwriting. You can write any kind of song you want, but it's the hit. If you want to write a hit, he's got to have this, it's got to have that, it's got to have the other. So Bruno and I were very much on the same page and relying on one another to scrutinize and and very much respect one another like you know for instance i i i think i was pushing like this chorus is not these choruses are not good enough this chorus is not landing this is not good and then bruno was the one who was like we need like a hooky bass sign we need the

dope dope dope dope dope dope dope dope dope you know and then there's just kind of one after another after another of kind of like drilling down on what is going to make this song perfect but very collaborative and then mark being like you know doing his magic of like it needs this sound here like kind of you know he's actually i i always i always try to push him to give himself his props as a songwriter but he kind of fancies himself more as a old school producer but that's also kind of part of it you know like max will kind of Max Martin will kind of sometimes mention like, you know, the production is the songwriting, and it's kind of like our conversation about what publishing is. It's like, well, we're making a record now. We're kind of writing it. It is kind of writing, right, except instead of notes on a page or words on a page.

It's sound on a hard disk, but it's still the composition, right? So to get back to the question, in that process, it was really everyone kind of holding everything in balance. and pushing things to be the best it could be and being uncompromising. I mean, I think all of us are compromising. I think at that time we also had a role, kind of like you relayed, like your email. I was definitely, of me.

I think in that era, I was definitely, my role was to be very uncompromising and just straight shooting. and I think Bruno and Mark really appreciated that part of me and looked to me to be my role to tear it down. I want you to tear it down. Because once Jeff can't tear this down, we know we got a winner, you know.

So everyone kind of had a different role and kind of having that in balance. I think to some extent each one of us would tear down the other and challenge one another in order to build this thing. It was, you know, is a hundred percent. And Phil in there also, you know, like, I think Phil's role is maybe to kind of feed more than,

and then me and Bruno and Mark kind of tearing each other down and getting to a place where we can all agree. We love the same. And then at the end, speaking of that tearing down process, you know, then we had 80 versions of the song and then had to ultimately go back in the studio and just redo the entire thing from the perspective of a, okay, if we were a band and we had to go on stage right now, what would the form be? would this be? And then we re-approached it like that and literally tore it down again and rebuilt it with all the elements that we had kind of all the roads we had gone down every and kind of then cherry picked all the best things. That's kind of how that song wound up coming together.

Now you listen to it. It's like it's just a nonstop flow of hooks. There's no fat. It just keeps you on the ride. It does. It fulfills all the checklist of a hit song. So, Despite its fun, I think everyone's powers, you know, Bruno's ability to kind of just make things really fun and celebratory and light and cool, you know, and Mark's ability to kind of make things cool and have this kind of slightly elevated feeling, contrasting with Bruno's more like every man experience. and then my experience with funk music, my uncompromising attitude and everyone's kind of forces coming together, obviously, I was quite a surprise to me.

I think all of us, me, I was just like, I couldn't believe this song took off like it did. Like, uptown funk, okay, I mean, you know, some do and some don't, but yeah, that one did. But I think the superpower of that group is patience. that the ability to say we can beat this, we can beat this, we can beat this, we can beat this. And anybody who's listening to this who's aspiring, so many of those people try to write a song a day and then leave it. But if all you did was write a cool pre-chorus, when you see the value of Uptown Funk, you realize that pre-course has a lot of value.

Go back to it, write a better verse. Like if you have a sick verse, that verse is worth going back for non-town. months if it's that good. Totally. And, you know. I think that's such a great point you say about like writing a song a day or like you, when you used to be like a producer, you'd be like, I want to do, I did eight beats today. And it kind of goes back to that like going deeper thing.

It's like, can you make, instead of building like four houses, can you like build one house and how many stories can you put on? that house. How many basement levels can you go down? How many, what kind of dimension and depth can you bring to this song so that when it hits the listener, it feels

valuable. It's like watching a movie or reading a story where it's like the characters, they feel like they have a backstory. There's like depth under the surface that is never explicitly explored, but you feel it. And music and

sound and songs, not sounds, songs and music are about feeling, people ultimately feeling something. And there are a lot of devices you can employ to get it to resonate in a more powerful, impactful way than just doing multi, multi, multi songs. If everyone is just kind of thin and not very deep. Yeah. And this is where it helps to work with artists too. And I know we don't have a ton of time left. So, you know, the next artist that I want to talk about is Harry Stiles, partly because that's another album that has a lot of depth. But maybe the coolest part of it in your journey is there were, even when you're the producer on a lot of this other stuff, fun is also a supergroup. You know, you're constantly around

these like super groups. What makes the Harry Styles thing interesting, and Harry's a very good writer, I've written with them a few times, very talented. But that's a lot of your protégés. It's your team of people that you that you become like that's when you're really go to guru status where it's you did the old school producing you're the one who put that team together totally just just tell me about the pride attached to that versus all the other songs i may be projecting but i imagine that you're super proud of that well i mean i don't know if it's like necessarily over other songs but like you you definitely hit on something that's true. It was like it was a different mode for me,

especially because I had just had my son. So it was, I had kind of, when Harry approached me to work with him, I kind of had to have this caveat like, you know, usually like with Nate or Kanye or Mark or Bruno, you know, in the past, like the deal is you're in it. 24-7, you're in the trenches,

you're going to be there by their side, you're going to be creating together. And I was just like, I am not going to be able to just, like, sit in there in a studio with you every day. But I can put this team together, and then I can come supervise. And then it was this whole different mode

and this new, interesting way of working that had worked really well for a couple of reasons, I think, because, like, as you pointed out, like Harry's gifts, it also allowed him to kind of express himself, which I think was a really important part of that project for it to go from, One Direction where it's very manufactured.

Here's the song. Sing it, get it done. You're the vocalist. It's like very old school kind of like, I don't, maybe they had some, I don't know a lot about, but it seemed much more manufactured than the idea of like the new Harry project where it was like, this is my project.

And it's about me and it's about different things. It sounds and feels very different than One Direction. So me not being in the room kind of allowed him to kind of be at the center of it. a little bit, I think, especially as like, I'm the dynamic change from me being a planet and Kanye's solar system to, I had kind of developed, I was a little more established as a producer and an artist myself. So that helped. And then also it helped me to just, you know, probably happens all the time with, I think, whether you're writing something or you're mixing

something, when you come back the next day and you listen to it, you can tell in one second what's good and what's not, or at least what hits you, it might hit you different, having the perspective, so having the perspective coming in to like, okay, what did you guys work on? Okay, this is good, this is good,

get rid of this. And a lot of times it would be like, you need a better chorus. Now your chorus is now your pre-chorus, and now we need to write a chorus that actually tops all this. Because what happens is like, you write this great verse,

you write this great pre-chorus, and you're kind of out of gas, you need to make a chorus. You just kind of make something, but it actually needs to be the opposite. It needs to ramp up until you hit the chorus, and you're just like, boom, this is the anthem. So a lot of times it would be about that, like, edit what they've done and then try to come up with, even like, or even you can have a kind of a different problem where you're writing too many words and you don't realize that like

Hallway, which is one of my favorite songs on the Harry first Harry album you know, they had written, which is beautiful when Mitch and Harry kind of came up with that, just that beautiful guitar figure and and the vibe

of that what is it? Just let me know where no, go on the o'all. I got to get better, I got to get better, I got to get better. I mean, you forget sometimes that most of the best hit songs ever written. It's just one line repeated over and over and over again. You forget, you can just repetition and redundancy is your friend.

You know, you pound it in there. So kind of being able to point that out from 30,000 feet was a great. great different kind of exercise for that album. And I am very proud of that album. The other thing I'll say about the Harry Project is all my favorite songs that I've done with Harry and like treat people with kindness on the second album. And then the first album was, of course, what's it called? Sign of the Times.

Those were very raw, like, hairy moments. Like, sign of the Times, he just started playing that piano and singing like a figure. and I was like, that's it. That's you, you know? That comes from you. Instead of it becoming this very collaborative thing, it's awesome when you can, that's one of those things captioning that lightning in a bottle

or treat people with kindness was this very kind of funny thing. Like you listen to that melody. It was almost like a joke, you know, like a few things were like a joke. Kiwi was kind of a joke. They were like, this is a joke song we're doing. I said, no, that's a fucking smash.

Like that's, and that one goes off at the show, you know, it's like the simplicity and the spontaneity. Another thing Bruno and Phil were just like amazing at is having this spontaneity. But on the Harry Project, like I loved when, and I think he really cultivated that

on a lot of his stuff that made it very hairy was when things were just like spontaneous and came right from him and it could be this thing and it's exactly that thing you were saying earlier when it's like, you're like, ah, that's not something. And someone in the room is like, no, that's the shit.

Like, isn't it amazing how we need that other perspective or that other person or that to say, no, that idea is, we're convinced that idea is shit. And someone else is like, no, that's like the best idea. How crazy is that? That we can't see that all the time. Yeah. I think that's our job as we get further. We still go in the room, still write those songs, but you can kind of trust that, you

know like you become the Steve Lindsay in that you become the Yoda you know it's like but here I'm gonna go and do the last segment just five for five I'm in list five things just tell me that what comes off the top of your head conier west genius Harry styles sexy Nate ruse I already used up genius so I'll just say emotion I like that one. Bruno Mars. Fun. Your son.

Light. Well, thank you for doing this. You know, I know, like I said, from the beginning, I know we've crossed paths a couple times, but haven't really had a chance to just sit and talk. And I appreciate you. You've had more of an impact on my career than I've had on yours. But I wanted you to know that, like, I really appreciate it, even along the way to see, like, okay, I see that I need to step it up to six years later being like,

I wonder what's going on in that room. And while I'm in another room being like, it's cool that I'm part of a, I got up to a level of songwriter where I could work with such incredible talent and feel like I'm contributing because I learned my lessons along the way. And then to be, you know, to be able to celebrate back to back, you know, some of the achievements where, you know, it made me feel like I was following this journey along with you in a way that is unique to our new relationship.

So I appreciate you, my friend. That's awesome, Ross. Thank you so much for having me, man. And like so many good conversations and congratulations to you on all your success. And that's, you know, it's a testament to you that you, I think we all, we all ultimately should be in competition with ourselves. You know, it's like a very delicate balancing act to just be in,

but be inspired by and use the competition and be inspired to say, I'm going to take that from this person. I'm going to take that from this person, but I'm going to still be me. So, man, thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it so much and it's so great to reconnect with you. And not be a dick this time.

Shout out to Dave Hoffman for introducing us in the first place. Ulu. Ulu. Love it. All right, homie. Well, I'll see you at the studio. All right, Ross. Sounds good, man.

All right, bye, bye. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.