And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 171: Natalie Hemby

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

Today’s guest signed her first publishing deal at the astonishing age of 19 and has since become one of the most successful and sought-after songwriters in the music industry. She has hits with Kacey Musgraves, Maren Morris, Sheryl Crow, Miranda Lambert, Lady Gaga, Yola, Dierks Bentley, Rag'n'Bone Man, Lady A, Kelly Clarkson, Little Big Town, and Labrinth, to name a few. She has successfully released her solo work and joined forces with Brandi Carlile, Maren Morris, and Amanda Shires as The Highwomen, releasing their critically acclaimed self-titled album in 2019. After scoring the record deal she released her exceptional sophomore album Pins and Needles via Fantasy Records. With all of this hard work and talent, it is no surprise that our guest has also been recognized by the ACM, CMA, CMT, and NSAI Awards for her prodigious and versatile contributions to songwriting. She received a Grammy award for Best Song Written for Visual Media for Lady Gaga’s, “I’ll Never Love Again,” from A Star Is Born, and later a Grammy for Country Song of the Year for "Crowded Table" by The Highwomen. Her work inspires artists of every genre and generation. And The Writer Is…Natalie Hemby! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. See you all there. And now, here's this week's episode. Hey guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was very. founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership

of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right.

It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. BMI is the champion of the creator, supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to navigate the industry, plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels

from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers, just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today. You can learn more at BMI.com. Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends, and repeat guests on the writer, is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters.

He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans. That's the kind of person Evan is in real life and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work. Because of him, we have songwriter of the year. Because of him, we have songwriter's

attitude, the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. This week's multi-Grammy-winning songwriting Craftswoman has penned hit after hit after hit. She constructs lyrics with candor and melodies with grit,

consistently topping country charts while maintaining her roots. She has eight number one singles to prove it. Her heart can be heard through the voices of Miranda, Lambert, Lady Gaga, Casey Musgraves, and more. She's 25% of my favorite supergroup and recently released her second solo record. All the way from Nashville, Tennessee, this high woman does all of this while being a family woman and sometimes a documentarian. And the writer is Natalie Hemby. Wee.

I really hear them cheering all across America. All across America. right with their headphones, maybe some of them smile a little bit. They're all crowded around the radio, just listening like fireside chats. That's so funny. It's so weird because it's hard to explain to people what, I mean, I assume that people still listen to radio often alone. Yeah. But I don't, you know, if people are together, they're going to probably play a playlist and they don't understand that when...

We were growing up. You know, when we were growing up, yeah. People would play the radio. You know, it's really interesting is watching music through my daughter's eyes. She's 10. And I swear she has a wider music knowledge than I do because she has access to so much music.

And when we were young, I always think about the first time I ever heard reflections by the Supremes. It was on this show called China Beach. And it was like the intro to China Beach. And I was like, that's the coolest song. What song is? that and you know we didn't have the worldwide web so i couldn't go look it up so i had to ask around

or i just waited for the credits and i remember i had to go to like a second-hand cd store to go search out the supreme's reflections and i could never find it but lo and behold it was there in my grandmother's record collection and you know it's just interesting how young people today uh younger than me you know, they just have so much access to it, you know, and they're quick to find it. And I think it's really awesome, actually. So because we had to do, it was like a treasure hunt. Yeah, you'd have to wait and hope that you heard the song played again.

There were even songs where there was a band called The Grays. Yeah. It was like also a super group, John Brian, was in it and um you know it was like it was just this like super group of of people and but it they had one single and i remember hearing it and going to best buy and i looked up the grays and i could print out the name of the album in like what would be the equivalent of a receipt and they didn't have the album because it was never popular yeah and so so even if even if you liked a song it didn't mean that the album was available. No, it wasn't. It was, and sometimes I'd wait for like,

you know, you go to oldies radio and you'd wait for a song to come on or you'd request it and then you'd hit play on your tape recorder. I mean, I did that many times. Totally illegal and so rebellious. But I, you know, it's so funny. I think that was part of the fun of music back then. It was just like was finding it. Totally. Wait, did your family listen to country music? When you say oldies, are you talking about oldies, sort of oldies proper? Or were you thinking like, were you also listening to? Yeah, like 50s and 60s, maybe even some 70s at the time.

But no, my family, you know, it's funny, my grandfather, he was a bluegrass player. And he lives in Southeast Missouri and played for years. And I think because I grew up in Nashville, I just did not give two shit. about country music. And, you know, I didn't actually learn to appreciate it, honestly, until I started singing demos for all these, you know, big country music singers like Faith Hill and I sang a demo that Tricia Yearwood ended up cutting this song on her record. And I actually started having such an appreciation for it.

But, you know, it was sort of like, it's like growing up in your hometown and, hating it until you get older, you see how wonderful it is, you know? I was, no, I was going to ask, like, when was that? I mean, how old were you when you were doing that? Well, I was probably about 19 when I started singing demos for everybody in town. And, I mean, I sing for a lot of big songwriters in town. And I, you know, but I still didn't want to do it as a, I didn't really want to write for it.

I loved rock and roll. I loved Tom Petty. I mean, that is what I grew up on. And obviously, Cheryl Crowe and, you know, I loved you two. I loved the food fighters, Nirvana, you know, and just like I loved all those bands. So for me, it was, it was so like, as I got older, I was trying to get a record deal. I wanted to sing rock music. And it just, like, would never happen because, you know, whenever I started off, it was like a dawning of Britney Spears era and Spice Girls.

and you were in boy groups and girl groups. And then it evolved until you had to be on TV to get a record deal. And then it was like, don't be on TV to get a record deal. You know, so it's just been an interesting journey to watch, sort of the evolution of music. And it keeps evolving, you know, never thought I'd be writing with or, you know, pitching for people who are big, TikTok stars or anything like that.

You know what I mean? It's just funny to me. If I went to college for music business, I mean, none of it would apply now. You know, back then, it's just so different.

Yeah, it certainly is, especially when it's hard to even listen to, even as a songwriter, it's hard to listen through a second chorus without just being like, okay, I've heard the song.

Yeah, it is. You know, it's really hard to even just sit through an entire song, it takes a serious craft person to write a song

that's worthy of sitting through for three plus minutes. I know. Well, everyone's attention span is so insanely short. And, you know, and I understand, we're all busy. We have so much access to each other. But the only thing I think that

the only thing I think that keeps albums around is is live music. Because I had a conversation with a friend of mine who's an artist and he was like, you know, we had a single out and we played it, did well at radio. When we went to go play live,

we didn't have any other songs to play. And it was like, what the hell do we play? We don't have a record yet. So they went and finally made a record. And, you know, they had to play a bunch of covers and things like that. But to me, live music is what kind of, It keeps the old coolness around, if you will.

Well, you're, I shouldn't say your genre. I, it's not all yours, but the, the, that whole, and I know you span like a few genres, but in the, in the pop world, there are a lot of legacy artists who cannot get a slot, even on hot AC, even on, you know, basic sort of pop radio. It is so hard to get a slot on radio right now, even if you are a superstar from 10 years ago. And country music still gives love to a lot of these people, you know, the Keith Urban's and, I mean, Miranda's not very old.

I mean, she's put out a lot of records, you know, so they'll. But people who've put out a lot of records, you know, so they'll. But people who've put out a lot of records. records still have a space there and pop music is not like that. It seems like and maybe it's because country music's based a lot in nostalgia.

You know, that they allow that. You know, I think people, country music has some really devoted fans where I'm not saying that pop music doesn't. They have some crazy fans. But I would say it's such a, it's like a rocket ship.

I mean, literally you just are catapulted into the stratosphere and all of a sudden you're just, you know, I mean, even if you just look at Billy Eilish's, uh, her documentary, literally going from her bedroom writing these songs to just, you know, stadiums of people singing back to her. I mean, it is literally, it's like being it's like a slingshot, you know, where country music is more of a, it's a long journey. It's a bit of a, it's a bit of a horse ride through the mountains. I like that I was telling someone the other day that

I think people now have been going to the Billy Eilish thing there's a whole generation of people who've been recording literally in their parents' house which is why I think they all sing quietly because they're like they're literally like they're all like literally in a room

and they have to sing quietly because, like, you know, my kids sleep, my brother, sleeping, my sister sleep, my mom's, like, I have to sing quietly. And I think that that's why there's a whole generation of people who all sing quietly versus people who still perform live first. I think you're right. And are used to having to sing over 10,000 people so they belt. And I don't know if that's true, but I definitely think that there are people who are writing songs quietly. I think so, too. I mean, they're not writing rock songs and garages anymore.

They're going to their bedrooms and they're being quiet. That's the new rebellion. But I do feel like, you know, it's just an interesting study on the different genres and music, really. Totally. You grew up around, you know, if your grandpa's, you know, a bluegrass player and you probably, you know, listen to Bill Monroe and all that stuff. And then you have like your, you know, your dad is a studio guitarist, right? Yeah, my, yes. My dad is, um, he's a musician has been for

years. He plays guitar. He can play bass, but he played, he's played on like Michael McDonald's record. He's played on Brian McKnight's record. My dad is one of these players that we don't probably know and appreciate these days because, I mean, you want to talk about, like, he could play something from Steely Dan. And I just don't know players like that anymore. You know what I mean? There's not a whole lot of them. And if they are,

they're all playing for like the Grammy Musicare's awards or something. And they're highly revered or they're just completely discarded. But he loves jazz and he loves rock and roll. And that's kind of what his thing was. He actually won a Grammy. He produced a record. And it was like for, it was like a southern

country Christian record or back like in the early 90s. And so I just like, I'm so proud of him because he naturally talented but yet practices kind of person, you know?

Like he's the kind of guy who could play in orchestras. He's played in orchestras. He's played with Vince Gill. He's played with all these people. But we don't have a lot of players like that anymore. You know? We've got like, we got kind of which I love cold play I love cold play I'm not dogged on them but what I'm saying it's like those four core changes well steely Dan explaining steely Dan to people who don't know steely Dan is really like one if you haven't heard it you should listen to it and you'd be like oh that's who steely Dan is these guys were winning you know album of the year Grammys in the last like 15 years you know but but you didn't realize that they you know

know, these guys were this fusion music that really was close to being a number of things. And country music, I think it's a bad rap often because if you listen to all those songs Willie Nelson wrote before he was a star, those are jazz records. Crazy is a jazz standard. You know, and there's a synergy between jazz and country, between the real players. when you grew up in that, did you ever want to do jazz or did you ever think, oh, I'm going to do more classic

kind of country music? You know, I was probably just a real shit because I literally, I knew all the country music stuff and I knew all the jazz stuff, but I was like, I ain't doing that, you know? Like, I just, I loved rock and roll music, but I would say, like, my dad,

on the way to Missouri, we'd listen to, like, Al Jero. And we listened to Sting. And Peter Gabriel, which I loved. And, you know, and when my grandpa, like, he would sing some old Bill Monroe songs, Stonewall Jackson, just really old country music. And back then, I just thought he was grandpa. This is just his songs and his generation.

But literally, as I've gotten older, I just have such an appreciation. because for me, country music, old country music is, it stems from such a hard time in life for these people, all growing up. Most people were poor back in the day. They didn't have cars. They lived on farms and they had to work all the time and work so hard. And they would get together and play in their living rooms with their families and play guitar. That's what my grandpa did. And my dad, he studied and studied all these different.

bands that he loved growing up. And he's such an accomplished player. I never appreciated intricacy of all of those things that he can play. I mean, he's an amazing guitar player. In a family that is so music-centric, how much music does the next generation consume of the previous generation?

Does your daughter know all the songs you've written? And do you know all the songs your dad's work? on? And does your dad know all the songs that your grandpa would play? And like, does this, is this like a lineage where part of the family is like, well, when I raise you, you're going to listen to all the songs that I've done? Yeah, that is a really, that's a really cool question. And I've never been asked something like that before. If I'm really thinking about it, some ways, yes. It's like my grandpa would drag my dad up to a bluegrass festival with him and make him play with them sometimes.

And my dad didn't love bluegrass until he got older. And then my dad would like force me to listen to Al Jaro and things. And I didn't really, I didn't really realize how amazing it was until I was older. And then now for me, like, I will say the only thing with Sammy Joe, my daughter is she actually likes, she likes 80s music. She doesn't totally love 90s music. She kind of does. But she likes 80s music.

Straight up Journey. Whitney Houston. Like, it's really funny. I mean, she'll be like, I'll hear a feeling playing in the shower while she's going to get around. She loves all those songs. She loves fame and I have the tiger. I mean, it's really funny. So it must be.

It's like literally watching it. It is. Because all those songs are like, I mean, it's like, if you see them actually liking the music you grew up listening to, then it's got to be like so surreal to be like, oh, that must have been me when I was in the shower. But I will say this. One thing that's wonderful about having all this access to music is like,

look, I'm not dogging on the radio, but she gets to pick and choose what she likes, you know. She doesn't have to listen the radio. She can listen to whatever she wants. And we didn't really have that. luxury growing up. You know what I mean? And I just feel like

it's sort of a cool thing for kids nowadays to get to experience. But it's also hard to... That's the reason why it's probably hard to break an artist too. I mean, because if you think about it, you're being broken against some of the legends, you know, against Tom Petty and against

like you two, Cheryl Crow, all those people. Well, that's like, it was so... It was that hard to get songs in the few stores that soul. tapes and CDs, assuming that we're talking like post-vinyl, pre-vinyl. And this era where it was like, it was hard to get the music. And so there was just limited

kinds of music you could purchase. And so we all bought the same stuff too. And it wasn't, you know, it's not like now where there are over 2 million songs released annually. It's like, you know, you just can't compete with that. that's why those TikTok viral moments are so valuable because that means that there's a collective listening to any song. Yeah, it's true.

It's complicated. But let's go back to the beginning of your professional career because, you know, I guess you, I mean, you obviously went to high school, but then you started singing demos after that. But you grew up near it, and your dad was in it, So you were surrounded by, you know, legends. Oh, yeah.

But a bunch of these people are country Hall of Famers, you know. Once you were kind of over your, I'm going to be a rock star phase, but I kind of want to be a country star phase. What was that transition like? And what, you know, there's sort of a gap between that and when you become, you know, when you start having big cuts. Well, you know, for me, it was like, I read it, I actually read an article. about how rock music has

the whole car and all of its best parts have been pawned off to other genres and for me I felt like I actually really loved when Miranda came along my husband did he did her first three records

my husband loves rock and roll music too he's the same way he loved you know he loved like bands like garbage and things like that like 90s quintessential grunge rock but he uh he he did a record and it was like i was like this is kind of rock and roll it's kind of rebellious and and i was like man i wish i could write i would love to write with her like something you know in that vein but it was just so for me i started just writing more towards

country because i found i could just kind of put my spin on it but also i like country music I don't not like it. I just, I didn't want to give into it, if you will, because I'm from here. I was like, here is somebody that I could completely relate to. I really loved her music. She wrote a song called Love's Looking for You Now when she was like 16. It's on her first record, but it is such an amazing song. And so by the time her third record rolled around, I was like, listen, I have some ideas.

And you want to write with me? I said, I know I'm the producer's wife. I was like, I just need a day, just one day. And I promise I'll bring you. And if you don't like it, we don't ever have to do it again. And I won't bug you at all. So that day, we ended up writing White Lire, which is a heavy bluegrass song. We wrote that in 30 minutes.

The next one was only prettier, which sounds like kind of punky sounding, but it's country. It's like, I mean, it's very bombastic. We ended up writing a ballad called Virginia Bluebell. And then we wrote this really awesome. I just call it kind of a traveling song. It's called the Airstream song. And it's just sort of like, she was my person. She was the one who opened all these doors for me.

And I had my first number one with her, and she had her first number one with me. And from there, it was sort of like, I just started right with all kinds of artists and all kinds of people. And, you know, I wouldn't say I've had quite the connection with just everybody as I have her. But it was such a lesson in how two minds can meet. And it's sort of like two completely, we are so different, she and I are.

We sing differently. And for some reason, the magic works with us. The formula has always been awesome. Hey, guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without. ever taking ownership of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral financial statements or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them.

Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right. It's 844 for all music

to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Hey guys. I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends, and repeat guest on the writer, is Evan Bogart.

Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans. That's the kind of person Evan is in real life, and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites,

but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work. Because of him, we have Songwriter of the Year. Because of him, we have Songwriters added to the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. BMI is the champion of the creator. supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters,

shows you how to navigate the industry plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers. just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today. You can learn more at BMI.com. You started this by saying, you know, my husband did the record and my husband produced the first three Miranda albums.

I know who your husband is, but for those who don't know who your husband is, how did you meet him? Did you meet him from music? And explain who he is before... Yeah, his name is Mike Rucky. He's from Milwaukee, and he moved to Nashville years ago. He thought country music was going to be going the way of Wilco and Whiskeytown, which I wish it had.

But he came here to do those records, and he was kind of gotten the same sort of thing where it was like he started doing demos for country writers and artists here in town. And then I met him singing on one of those demos. That's how we met. And it's so cliche, but we didn't, we liked the same music. We were, we were listening to all the same kind of rap music, kind of like all the same rock or roll, everything. And so that was kind of like our, you know, how we fell in love and that sort of thing. But Mike, he produced Miranda's first three records. He produced, played, sang, mixed, engineered, all of it.

I mean, it was like, it was a lot of time and energy went into it. And I'll never forget hearing her voice through our little tiny house. It was like, I'm waiting on the sunset because yesterday ain't over yet. And it's like, I was like, what the hell is this? It was just like, you know, I was working at Comcast at the time. So there you go. You were? Oh, yeah, I worked at Comcast for four years in marketing.

And I mean, Michael's like, I'm producing this girl. She's from Texas, Marina Lambert. And then I was like, then she was on Nashville Star. She got third runner up. But she's just like a, he basically, though, what he did was he took his rock and roll influence and he put that fire in there as well. I mean, Miranda was already a fireball. She just needed someone production-wise to do that. And at the time, that was a really bold move.

I mean, country music was still, besides Gretchen Wilson, country music was pretty easy going, you know what I'm saying? Wait, can we go back to the Comcast thing for a second? Like, you know, here you are, you're singing, you're singing demos, you're part of like the Nashville scene, you're, you know, what? Yeah, well, you know, I needed health insurance. Wait, how old are, how, yeah, sure, totally. How old are you?

And were you at the time where you like, I should do music or at that point, when you're like, I'm not doing music anymore? Well, I still was doing music. I was still writing with people. I had a couple of cuts. I had a, I worked there. I always say I was a, worked at Comcast by day or songwriter by night. But I literally would work all day, but I would go home and write songs or I'd go to, you know,

song right around or I go see concerts. You know, I didn't have kids during that time. And I was like, I just kind of hustled a little bit. And I got to, I still had a publishing deal with Kathleen Kerry at Sony out in L.A. During this whole time, you know, and then Mike was producing her. And it was just like, there was just like a hodgepodge of things going on at the time, this whirlwind. We didn't know it was going to take us.

And so I finally put my job at Towncast. And I finally kind of gave up the artist thing because I just, I was tired of like, I was better served as helping somebody write something for themselves than somebody, than me trying to get a record deal and trying to convince people that I'm, I'm just totally the shit. Those who haven't worked with you don't understand how, I mean, they can listen to your, your recordings, but your day of recordings when you record demos are, they're so, you sell songs. Like, there are certain people whose voices on records are as valuable as

their technique as writers. And you have this ability to really dive in. I mean, clearly you've been singing on a mic for a long time. Do you think that, are there, are, artists ever, I guess maybe threatened by your talent? Nobody's ever said that to me. I'm a, like, Miranda and I, we just don't even, we don't sing in the same register. And she doesn't, I mean, Miranda is her own lane and she knows that I'm mine and we don't get in each other's lane. But, you know, the only person I would say my voice would be somewhat comparable to, and we laugh

about it because we're good friends and it's Karen Fairchild from Little Big Town. She and us, one time she was playing a voice note on her phone and I thought it was me. I was like, is that me or you? I can't really tell. But we both have the same register and the same tone of voice. But I've never had anybody, first of all, I'm really not anything to be jealous about. And second of all, I just, you know, I don't ever. put myself in those positions like I sing better than you or anything like that. I sing with

I write with some amazing singers so who sing circles around me. One of your, one of your first big cuts is also someone that you're very close with with Amy Grant and being somebody again like you must have grown up really liking her. Okay. As an artist. before you ever worked with her because, you know, that she was huge 15 years before you worked with her. No, I, I loved Amy. I, this is what I like about Amy.

She came out in a time, she was so, people don't understand how big she was. She was so famous. Like, just insane. Bridgestone would sell out these days for Amy Grant. And so during this time, she came out in a time of these really dynamic,

Melisma singers like Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, like all these big voices. Her voice, it's not big. There's nothing big about Amy's voice. But what was so intriguing about her that I noticed is that she sang kind of like she talked. She had a lower register. I mean, she had some range on her. She can get up there, but I'm saying what was so pleasing about her was her tone of

voice and the way she delivered her songs. And it wasn't like, I'm trying to be like me, you know, all that kind of stuff. It was very like, like her big Christian song that was out was like, lead me on, lead me on to the place where the river runs into your keeping. It was just very like, very simple. But you could sing along with her, you know. We all love Mariah Carey, but we can't all sing along with Mariah Carey. No question.

After Miranda, you're, you know, there's a break kind of between, I mean, you have a couple of songs that are hits with Miranda. One that's a number one with White Lire, and then there's, you know, a couple others that chart pretty well. But the next number one song that you have is with Little Big Town. And so in this segment of what would Luke Laird asked Natalie Hemby on, and the writer is, Luke Laird says in high school, were you more likely to slow dance with a guy if the song playing was Freak Me by Silk or Week by SWV?

Only Luke would ask me that. That's amazing. What a great question. Honestly, I was such an SWV fan. I vote them for sure. Perfect. Okay, so Pontoon is really this, I believe I came to Nashville that year.

I think that was my first time, like, really coming to Nashville. And it was like, and at the time, that song was so big, and I just worked with Luke. He was the first person I worked with. And so to me, this was like the, I learned a whole lot of country music over the next 10 years going back to the beginning of country, like really loving it. But to me, the first song that really mattered to me was pontooned because it was like, it was like this, you know, I knew country music, but I'd never like dabbled in it as a writer. I never tried to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

you start studying it. It's such a good writing crew of people. That song in particular. Well, tell me about it. Well, we wrote it kind of as a joke. We wrote a song called Fine Tune, and it ended up being on Miranda's record,

and somebody thought we said, Pondune, and I just said to Luke, I think I like pushing the boundaries all the time when it comes to seeing what we can get away with. And Luke was, I was like, we should just, I said we should write a song called Pontoon. And so we called Barry. And the first sign of the song originally, I mean, we were just laughing having a great time was

back this bitch up into the water. And we just thought that was hilarious. And then I just sang it and it got passed around town and like Dirk's put it on hold. Kicks Brooks was like, ha ha ha, back this bitch up into the water. He goes, I love it, but I won't cut it. We're like, okay. But the thing about it was, was that little big town, they took this song and they, like, they made it fun and cool. And I loved the video.

And it was just like, they made it like an earworm, like so catchy. And it was so awesome because we bought a, we actually bought a pontoon. And we would hear it out on the lake people playing it in their different boats. And it was just a surreal moment. And I actually, I always tease about the song because it's really very simple. But oh my God, I swear to you, I could write a song. I could write the most like gut-wrenching, like inspirational song. But whenever I play out, people want to hear of pontoon.

That's the one. Oh, I'm sure. I think it's this thing where the genre, embraces an element of humor that most genres don't. But you're right, the performances are fun. It's like it rides this line of like, it's clever, not funny. Right. And that's the part, that's why it works.

Right. They're not pointing, winkin after they sing motorboating. Yeah, yeah. Legendary song. Okay, so you get to work with, you said, you know, that you want. wanted to be like Cheryl Crow or something, but you know, you kind of came in after that and then it was coming around all these, well, all these like pop women were coming out and that rock world wasn't working. Then meanwhile, you're working with, you know, the Amy Grants of the world. And then

here's like Cheryl Crow that you actually get to work with. That's got to be an amazing thing to kind of, you know, as like a personal checklist. Oh, listen, Cheryl is, the first time I wrote with her, I was so nervous. And it was her and Jeff Trott, actually. And we basically, we didn't really write a song that day. I didn't sleep at all the night before. I was really nervous. She's my hero.

She really is. She's my, I mean, her music was like a Bible to me. I knew who played on her records. I knew, you know, I just, I knew where they were recorded. I just, I loved her music so much. And I related to her voice because, once again, I have a deeper voice. and it's a lower register, and it's not like, I don't know, I could just, I loved the way she's saying.

And I listened to her and Bonnie Raid all the time. So it was sort of like, if you took Bonnie Rae, Cheryl Crow and Amy Grant, you put him in a pot. That's my voice, basically. I want to, you know, with all due respect to Cheryl Crow and those people, there's this, you're a very busy person right now. You're entrepreneurial It's just what you do You've always been busy But at some point It gets hard to accept Those kinds of sessions

Even if they're with these icons Because you know where they are In their career And it gets complicated How do you weigh In You know The meaning of this person

In your life Versus the meaning Of the potential of the song actually creating an asset that's valuable. Yeah, you know, I can't think on this terms usually ever. I mean, sometimes I do, but only because I feel like songwriting is a fine thing, honestly. I mean, if you don't write the song, you won't know where it goes. So if it's a hero of mine, I mean, I would write with her a thousand times over.

but if it's like with somebody who you know it just depends on how serious somebody is about making a record i think i mean obviously everybody wants to write with their heroes i also got to write with chris isaac and i had a couple songs on his record and i really enjoyed that he was wonderful he was really funny and not at all like his chris isaacness on stage he was actually like a he seemed like a kid to me He was just kind of shy and he was like, I don't know, you know, if he liked this. But he was wonderful. But all that to say, I really try to, if it's somebody I really still love and I, you know, just want to write a song with them, I will, you know.

I don't try to bring money or just like the, I try not to bring the business too much into it. sometimes you've got to live out your your inner kid and your inner kid in you sometimes you you know what sometimes you just gotta write a lot I swear to God if Mariah Carey called me up tomorrow and was like I want to write a song with you I'd be like I'll be there tomorrow

like on your door stuff no problem you know so it just or maybe you'll just be like I'm going to just go on her doorstep and just wait for her to be like who are you? You could do it that way exactly

last last thing that was kind of cool just on a personal note was at yes pontoon was like this song where I was like

oh cool this is I like country music where like I want to be more involved in this community I had known Luke at this point

but then I had a single that was like to follow up to downtown for Lady A and Compass which was my first number one

country song was like right after that and I was just like this is so cool and I had a song on Fuse and you had a song song unfused and I was like, we are going to be friends someday. And so here we are friends.

And that's awesome. Okay. Automatic. Still Miranda Lambert, still ringing the bell. But this time, this is different. This song gets nominated for all kinds of awards and actually wins. You know, I mean, we've interviewed, you know, Nicole. And this was like a, this is a really cool thing. partly because I love that she champions women co-writers and that

in a business that is so male-heavy and at that time it was almost all men if maybe it was all men except for her and you had this like you had this brilliant song

that came out of it oh it was it was so awesome and and Miranda threw the most righteous part at for it, like a 1940s, 50s prom party. It was so funny. You know, it was just a great, I mean, all three of us, I say we were all three

a little nostalgic and this automatic was Nicole's idea. And I had, I probably came in with more of the melody, if you will. But I just, when that happened, that really changed the trajectory for me. I can't ever say that word, trajectory. There we go. It's a really hard way to say. It's a hard word to say. I'll probably end up running a song called trajectory,

and I still can't pronounce it. The concept is that this trajectory is going down as you struggle to say that. Keep going. Exactly. Sorry. No, I was just like a, it was a great moment for me

because I finally got to be, we all want to like say our thank yous to people, but you know it's the childhood dream you're on TV your mom and dad are watching your grandparents and everybody you get on TV and you get to thank everybody you love I mean those are the moments that that's what makes it so much fun it's not really the honestly the statue you take home and you put on your show it's like the moment you get to say thank you to everybody and that's what that was for me you have um you know you have a lot of names that you've worked with and I'm going to skip over a bunch of stuff to, I want to get to Casey Musgraves, who you started working with pretty early

on and had kind of wild success. I feel like because of Miranda and knowing your background and wanting to be involved in grit, that that couldn't have been cast better to have you work with Casey. Was this something that, was she an artist that you went and asked to work with? Or is this something where she asked to work with you, how does that pairing work? Because it's perfect. Well, you know what? I'm going to be honest with you. A lot of my running relationships are very authentic. I mean, Casey and I, we started off as friends. We wrote a song together and, but we, we would talk. We'd have long talks. And her family, actually, her grandmother's from Missouri as well from where my grandparents are from. And I just loved Casey.

she sticks up she's always sticking up for the underdog kind of person and back then like I I just loved and appreciated her I didn't I wasn't on her first two records no I was on her first record but I love I used to go see her playing concert all the time and you know just tell her like hey I'm so proud of you I love you and thank you for doing country music because we needed you and then um by the time, pageant material rolled around. It was like, we got to write the good old boys club, which was a lot of fun. And we went out to Texas on a writing trip, and we had a good old time. It was so funny, we went for a jog one time. And I used to jog all the time. I can actually jog pretty far. And she works out, and she's skinny and teeny tiny, but it was in the Texas heat,

and we were jogging. And she kept having to stop. I was just stop with her. And finally, she go, okay you can go ahead just go Natalie just go I can't take any of that I was like okay so I always laugh when I think about that but Casey really here's the deal I did a record called Plexico and actually I was really surprised and shocked to how supportive of my friends were Marin was the one who kept pushing me to put it out but Casey was a big she was a cheerleader and so was Marin of for Paxico and I honestly we just started talking all the time again and then she started dated Rustin and I was friends with Rustin and honestly we just started writing these songs very organically and one of them was butterflies that was one of the first ones we wrote for that but I

didn't know if it was going to make the record but we wrote that with Luke and then we ended up writing Velvet Elvis that she brought that idea to Luke Dick and I but but But for Rainbow, we wrote Rainbow for page of material. And Rainbow was written on the guitar. And it was in 2013. It was on a rainy day. And we were all three going through it. And we wrote that song and it was just kind of put away for years.

And she played that song for Daniel and Ian for Golden Hour. And they were both like in tears and they were. like this has to go on your record. This has to be the last song. So that's how that made it on there. But this is my point. Exactly. If you don't write the song,

you just don't know where, you don't know if it'll ever land anywhere, you know? Yeah, well, in this segment, we'll call it, what would Luke Dick ask Natalie Hemby on And the Writer is? And he asked, what percentage of your rights are occupied by spilling the tea and or talking shit. Well, I'm going to tell you,

Luke Dick is my favorite person to spill tea with and talk shit with. He's such a dear friend. 100%. He's, no, probably, I would say a good 80% of it is. Yeah. It gets a legend.

You know, and that Golden Hour album is so good. It obviously won album of the year. It also is partly the driving force of why songwriters now, if you have any part of any song, will get a Grammy if you win album of the year. And a big part of that was because of, you know, people like you and Luke Laird who, you know, and Shane, who wrote such amazing songs on that album and all deserved to walk away. way with statues and if there was any justice

you guys in particular would would get a damn statue. Wow. I actually when she won I was like a couple people text me and they were like I think we'd get statues and that someone's like no you don't get a statue you have to write this 33.3% of the record or something and I was like damn it but I don't know

I'm just glad I had those songs resonated with people I don't you know none of them were not of them were big hits but they were a big hit on people you know

that's what they be that's what the whole it's album of the year they all were hits on it or the album wouldn't be like in its world in its world like you can't listen to that album without those three songs and have it be golden hour

Anyway, you kind of get your redemption the next year because you win a Grammy for a Bluebird, I believe, the next year, right? No, no, I got nominated for Bluebird. I won a Grammy for it was called Crowded Table. Oh, it was for Crowded Table. Well, that's your own thing. But, I mean, it's nice to know that you walk away with a nice statue. at some point. Yes.

No, actually, okay, Grammys. I got one for Lady Gaga for a star. Oh, right. For a star is born. And that was that year.

That was that year. That was that year. That was the golden hour year. Okay. And then the next year was the crowded table. Did you, how did the Lady Gaga thing work?

I mean, that's a, it seems like an outlier for, yeah. You know, for Lady Gaga to hear the song and for it to be such a prominent part of that movie? Well, you know, Dave Cobb, I would say Dave Cobb changed my life,

and he really did. Dave Cobb called me to come right on the Starsboard. He called me, Lori, and Hillary, and Aaron Rayteer. And we all went out there for a week, and we were writing songs for this film that also the script kept changing. They hadn't filmed it yet. As you know, it was the fourth installment of the Stars Board. So, you know, I would say movies are strange because it's like you can write for them, but I mean it doesn't mean the movie's coming out.

I mean, it doesn't mean it's going to be good. And we met Bradley Cooper and I would say I hugged him probably a little longer than he hugged me. That's okay. And then the food fighters were making their record that week and we hung out with them all week. We ate with them. We drank with them. And the next door, Queens of the Stone Age were making. their record. I mean, it was just like the most epic yet stressful week. But toward the end of the

week, I literally was like, we probably didn't get any songs on this. Like, I don't, I don't know. We wrote so many songs for it. But I ended up getting two on there. And Aaron got like four and Hillary got two as well. But I never thought it would be as, it would turn out to be such a big moving. And actually we went to go see it. And I found myself like, I was enthralled. Like, I just forgot it was Bradley and Lady Gaga, you know. It was just a really, it was just one of those lucky breaks, honestly.

In this, in this segment, we'll call it, what would Lori McKenna ask Natalie Hemby on Ann, the writer is? And Lori says, maybe ask her if she had to pick between. Bruce Springsteen or Zara, which would she pick? I picked Bruce Springsteen. I do. Okay, I got a funny story about that. Lori and I went to go play an event in New York.

And she was like, hey, do you want to go see Springsteen? And I was like, I mean, I guess. And I thought, I'm not joking. I thought it was a musical about Springsteen. I didn't realize it was just him in a piano. She was like, I was like, how much tickets were I was like, really? It's like, do people like this? She goes, Natalie, it's Bruce Springsteen himself.

I was like, okay. Okay, that's totally different. She and I just sat there like everybody else. There wasn't a dry eye in the house. It was the most incredible thing I've ever seen. Yeah, that it, I think people can stream it. It's on something, but. It's not the same experience to be able to see Bruce Springsteen

in a theater of 1,200 people or whatever it was, you know. You literally feel like he's talking to just here. You know. Yeah. Well, speaking of that kind of intimacy, you know, you kind of gloss over Puxico, but that actually had, you know, you had like a documentary attached to that. Like, that's why, you know, I commented on that earlier. Your family means everything to you.

and in an industry that's so jaded, how do you hold on, it seems like the more people know you, the more you love your family. Yeah, and it's true. I think because I grew up in the music business, and I loved, I wanted to showcase,

really I wanted to showcase about how a town keeps a tradition alive. That's what this whole documentary is about, but really it's about my, the relationship of me and my grandfather. And also like, you know, how do, how do I keep our traditions alive after he's gone kind of thing? And for me, I've just watched a lot of people in the music business who've come and gone. Sometimes they leave and they leave on a beautiful note, you know, this grace note, if you will, but sometimes when they leave, it's just a huge mess and it's sad and it's a little depressing. That's why they make movies

like a stars born and things like that. So I, I'm very well aware of this. So I really try not to put all my stock into, into this. I'm trying to enjoy it while it's happening. And I'm trying to embrace people who are coming up, who are new and, you know, and just ride the wave as long as I can. And then when it's my time, it's my time. So I know that sounds really depressing, but I feel like that's really how Willie Nelson does it. And so many other legendary artists, they just keep playing music. You have to do music because you love it, you know, if you wanted to stay in it. Speaking of Willie Nelson, you know, you have the high women as a supergroup.

And there's a famous supergroup called the highway men that, you know, you know, is Johnny Cash, Waylon Jennings, Chris Christopherson, and Willie Nelson, and you guys are the high women. Is that a coincidence? It is not.

Amanda Shires is the one who came up with this idea, which is so brilliant. And it was basically, she basically was listening to Country Radio one day and noticed how they weren't playing women, hardly at all. There was like no girls on there for like an hour. She kept calling a radio station.

And she told Brandy, she said, I want to start a women's group with you. I want to call it the highwaymen. And it would be like, you know, the highway men. But the brilliant part about it is they took the song, the highway men, and they rewrote it. And they, when I heard that song, that was what had me hooked.

I was like, this is really brilliant. It's really beautiful. And, you know, at first, it was, can you write songs for this project? And then it turned into, hey, do you want to be in our band? and I was like, I don't know, because I'm not sure, I don't have, you know, I'm not an artist and I don't have anything really. I mean, I can write songs, I can sing, but I don't have management. But they were like, we don't care.

That's not what this is really about. And they were like, we're going to be singing with Dolly Parton, too. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I'm in. I'm in, I'm in. So. But you know what? Listen, if we were Destiny's child, I am Michelle, and I am, is totally okay with that.

Like, I'm the oldest in the group and the least famous, and that's exactly how I won it. What would you say to Comcast Natalie, who is like, I'm done being an artist? What would you say, like, you're a multi-Grammy winning, you're a Grammy-winning artist? Wow. That sounds strange to me. but now that you put it, I guess I am. I don't see myself that way, but if I was talking to old me, I'd be like, it's all worth it.

That's what I would say. Because you know what? I don't think I could do all this stuff. I don't think I can handle all this weird. If you get thrown into this, it's a lot of pressure, and I don't think I could handle it. I mean, I've had to ease into everything that I've ever done, and I'm grateful for it, you know.

I have some friends who have started off in the business and they blew up very early on and they're already done. They don't want to do music anymore. And I'm just glad that I'm still doing it. I told God in my own heart, I said, God, I just want to do music. I don't care what that looks like anymore.

And not only do I feel like I've been able to write songs for other people, but I've also been able to do my own. And I've also got to beat a band. Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, your last few years is so exciting because I feel like I probably saw you you write when maybe before you'd release anything

with high women and to see how much you've released, how much music, not to mention when you're writing, people don't realize, like, you have a song that came out with Ed Shearin. You have songs that came out of Ragged Bone Man. You have like Alicia Keys.

This is your last year or two. It's not just it's not so just more genre specific and more into yourself and it's not all about self like you're you're really touching on music you never touched on before oh yeah I love music I loved writing with Alicia Keys I mean it fulfilled every like you know R&B 90s fantasy I mean I've ever had I grew up on music we grew up on the same music I love Rag and man. He is the most, he's such a great writer, but his voice is like so engaging and he's so strong and just like he means every word he says, you know? And I love, I love Ed Shearan. Ed Shearin is probably one of the most nicest people in the world. And honestly, to be fair,

Ed and Sherron doesn't need me. I just got really lucky to be in the room with him. But he treated me like a sister. You know what he said to me? I think of me laugh. I was, I just turned 40 and that year, and he said, do you take drugs? And I was like, no, I take hormones. Why are you asking me? And he's like, because a lot of people who don't take drugs, they look younger when they get older. And I was like, aw, I'm in love with the shape of you. I'm like, I was like, thank you for saying that. That's so nice. But he's just a, he's a very sweet band. How did you feel about performing live on TV without the other women?

Now that you've released your own, you know, I've seen you perform on, like you've performed your own song on TV alone. Yeah. What amazing, so full circle. So full circle. I mean, you can't make this stuff up. It's really crazy. It was a little strange because we're in the COVID years.

But, you know, Anthony Mason has been so kind to me from CBS and has given me a lot of spots and a lot of love. And I'm so grateful to him. But you know what? I also was like, I felt a little redneck about it. Like, hold my beer, watch this. So I just was excited for the opportunity. And, you know, I'm going to be playing a lot of different.

a lot of different places this summer too. The live thing has really shook my world because once again, like, okay, I've gotten to do writing, I've gotten to do a documentary, I've gotten to be in a band, I've got to be by myself. But playing live with your husband and having an actual band, that's probably the thing that stresses me out the most.

But I actually, I'm telling you, when you have a great band you love and you have a team, you love and man it's fun it is fun fun fun fun and i assume your daughter tours with you guys then this summer at least yeah she'll be coming on the road with us i'm going to make her sing some harmonies she's a really good harmony singer um so the you know the hemby uh DNA line continues on that's right with it's um you get to tour with you know a fellow bandmate too i mean that's that's going to be really exciting. So exciting.

I'm opening for Marin in August on a Midwest run, which is perfect. Those are my people. I get to see all my family. And yeah, we're going to go. It's going to be a blast. I'm going to try not to drink while we're out on the road. That's a good song concept. Okay.

And our last segment, we're going to do a five for five. I'm going to list five things. Just tell me what comes to the top of your head. Okay. There aren't really any rules. to it. Okay. Just go with the flow.

We're going to start with the high women. Okay. Manuel suits. We got all these tailor-made Manuel suits. Best thing ever. It's got my name on it. It's got these flowers on it. I mean, they were expensive as hell, but they are awesome.

Manuel. This is something you and I haven't really talked about it since, but I think it's important because he was friends with both of us and we talked a lot about it after he passed, but Busby. When I think of Busby, I think of piano. I played his piano. He played his piano. It's like there were so many songs I wrote on that piano with him.

And I just feel like he's still in there in a way. And Marin has his piano. And he was like a brother to me. And I've been, I would confide in him. cry on his couch and he never would say a word to anybody about something I was going through and he's just a really, I miss him every day. Yeah. Miranda Lambert. When I think of Miranda, all I can think of is Firecracker. I mean, she has been, she's the exact same age as my sister. she is so like she takes no BS whatsoever and I just wish I could be like that sometimes

let's go with your husband Mike supportive he's been so supportive of me you know sometimes he's been on top of the mountain now I'm on top of the mountain and I feel like we do the seesaw thing where one person is up on the seesaw And the other person, though, is holding them up that weight, you know. And I did it for him, and now he's doing it for me. And I could, honestly, if everyone wants to know the secret behind me, it's him because I couldn't do it without him. He makes my music.

He helps me raise my kid, and he really holds down the board at home. Sammy Joe, your kid. What do I think about Sammy Joe? One word. I'm grateful. I'm grateful because she's an empathetic person. She loves music

and she's so much fun to be around. So grateful. Well, thank you for doing this podcast. Thank you. I'm like, I know we've done, you know, we've done, we've done a few sessions and there. I would like to do it again, though.

Yeah. But for, for me, it's just so exciting because I feel like when, you know, there are writers in the room and then there are artists in the room. And it's so intriguing because I can't think of that many people that I've worked with that are, you know, technically writers, but couldn't feel more of being with an artist. Like, you have such a perspective and you're not afraid to go there as a writer. Well, you aren't either. It's so excited.

I feel like, you aren't either. I love going there. I want to go there because I just want to see where it goes. Yeah, but that's what it should be. But it's hard to find people who are really willing to go and write pontoon. But whatever songs that you write, you go all the way there, you dive 100% in there. And you're such a good entrepreneur and leader in the business without it being showy. You know, like you're, I mean that in a sense that, you know, it's not, you don't, it doesn't, it's not, you're not, you're not, you're so humble about the, the, the, the things that you do, because you're, you're doing it with people. You're constantly talking about the people you're doing it with. And, but you're, you're, you're the driving force behind all these amazing things that have happened in your career. And, and, and a lot of us are just, you know, going for the ride a little bit, you know, so. Well, I, it's cool.

I feel the same way about you and I love music and that's why you have to do it. You have to, you know what, to quote Lori McKinney, always stay humble and kind. And my quote, once I spoke to the B of B of I's, that's where I first met you. And my quote at the end of the B of my segment was, don't be an asshole on the way up and don't be one on the way down. Well, that's a good way to end it. Thank you so much. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. See you all next week.

I'm Ross Golan, signing off.