And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 172: Mike Elizondo

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

Today’s guest is a grammy award winning producer, songwriter and musician who has worked with an impressive and eclectic group of stars. He spent 11 years under the wing of legendary producer Dr.Dre and produced songs for Eminem, Carrie Underwood, NF, Fiona Apple, 50 Cent, Keith Urban, Twenty-One Pilots, Ed Sheeran, Gary Clark Jr., Regina Spektor, and the Jonas Brothers. A three-time Grammy nominee, Elizondo took home the “Best Rock or Gospel Album” Grammy award with Switchfoot in 2011 for the band’s Hello Hurricane. In 2016, Lin-Manuel Miranda asked him to produce three songs on the Hamilton Mixtape. He has extensive co-writing credits, including Eminem’s “The Real Slim Shady” and 50 Cent’s “In Da Club,” and also penned songs for artists including Jay-Z, Mary J. Blige, Eve, Snoop Dogg, Macy Gray, Nelly Furtado, and Mandy Moore, amongst others. He’s also worked at Warner Bros. Records where he used his passion for artist development to work with bands such as The Regrettes. On top of all of this, he is also an accomplished musician, having contributed bass to Ry Cooder’s Chavez Ravine and B.B. King’s Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. B.B. King, among other albums. His recent productions include Lauren Daigle, Brothers Osborne, Rag'n'Bone Man, Turnstile, and Disney’s ENCANTO. Today’s guest wears so many hats in the music industry, and inspires artists to explore all of their passions. And The Writer Is…#MikeElizondo! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was, founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership

of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right. It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's

sponsors Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends and repeat guest on the writer is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans. That's the kind of person Evan is in real life, and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work. Because of him, we have Songwriter of the Year. Because of him, we have songwriter's added to the

album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's music giant bass guru is a multi-grammy award-winning super producer, smash songwriter, and venerable musician who has collaborated with the most major of artists across all of the genres. His notable discography spans from the real slim, Shady, to We Don't Talk About Bruno. First known, unfortunately, for his more than a decade-long collaboration with hip-hop icon Dr. Drey, he branched off doing number one country songs,

number one alt-rock songs, number one soundtracks, and has done it with the sweetest heart in the music business. All the way from Nashville, this cowboy Casanova slash family man will meet you anywhere his RV can get to. And the writer is in the club, Mike Alessando. Wow, man. strung a lot of cool stuff there. I appreciate it. I've realized you have to just take a really big, deep breath before you start the thing. Yeah, impressive. Impressive. Maybe you can get through it.

Dude, it is so good to see you. Ross. What a privilege, man. I admire you so much. I admire what you've created with this show. I tune in all the time. I'm a nerd. So I love to know what people's process is like and how they think and how they operate. I love the, you know, and the update is. Like, I feel like it's a one-stop shop to just knowing what's going on. There's so much happening on a daily, weekly basis that I can just tune into your show and get caught up and like, okay, cool. And then the things I really want to dive into, I can go and research, but at least I get a good chunk of like the overview, man. So thank you for all that you do, man. I love that. Well, I feel like I should Venmo you or Zell you something for that.

But look, man, your discography is so awesome that I want to get to it. But, you know, first you're an L.A. kid, you know. So, you know, a lot of people who live in L.A. moved here. Here you're an L.A. kid who's not in L.A. anymore. So I kind of want to tell the journey of how does an L.A. kid become Mike Elizando. So tell me about your childhood a little bit. What is your family like? So I grew up in a city called Pekoma, California, which is most, I guess, most widely known as being the birthplace of Richie Valens, LaBamba. Also, Danny Trejo came out of Pekoyama.

But yeah, you know, just a little... largely Hispanic, you know, area in the San Fernando Valley. And my dad's a musician. Still is. Still is. So, my dad's extremely talented. He plays a lot of different instruments. He's got a killer singing voice, you know.

So I just grew up with music. Was it a professional thing? He did some stuff, you know, when he was really young, had some, like, singles released and whatnot. But, you know, he also started a family really young and realized that he was going to have to, you know, provide in a way that, maybe the career of music wasn't going to be able to accomplish. But he's still, you know, now he leads worship at a church.

And, you know, and he's had quite the journey. I could take the whole show giving you his journey, which is pretty amazing. But my dad, you know, was really the person who got me excited about this idea of playing an instrument and being in a band. And my mom, you know, had a job and raised us. She had just various jobs. but wasn't musical, but both my parents in my earlier age of, you know, my early development of wanting to be a musician, were just incredibly supportive and kind of gave me the big thumbs up to just pursue it, you know.

Are you first or second generation American? Like, how far back has your family been in the U.S.? My dad was born in Mexico. Okay. But his dad was American. and his mom was a Mexican citizen. So he was able to, you know, get his, you know, become a U.S. citizen here. But my mom was born in California.

So, you know, so she was born and raised here. But her, yeah, so I'd say, you know, on my dad's side, I'm, you know, kind of a first generation, you know, that was born here. but on my mom's side she's you know her parents you know um a variety of where they where they came sure um what kind of music was it uh you know is it richy valens and is it you know is that the kind of music that as like a hometown hero that you would grew up listening to or is it sort of like you've got a dad who's doing all kinds of instruments so you're listening to everything right yeah well so my dad is 19 years was 19 years old when I was born.

So it's almost sort of like having an older brother that just had a really cool record collection, but he's my dad, you know. So my dad, I remember, yeah, we listened to a lot of Beatles, a lot of Motown, you know. A little bit of everything, though. And as I got a little bit older, you know, he allowed me to go in and pick out records

from his record collection and check things out and discovered a ton of music. Country music was in there. You know, a lot of like P-Funk and, you know, some jazz music was in there. A little bit of everything. So I think, yeah, he just liked good music, you know. So he kind of passed that on to me to just sort of be open to different types of music and different styles of music.

He also, one important thing that my dad did that changed my life, at the time I didn't realize it. But now looking back, it was very influential. But he converted the garage, I want to say in 1982, or 83 converted the garage into a recording studio. And he went in and found, not only for his own use, but he also went and found some young groups in the neighborhood and recorded their demos and shopped them to like booking them gigs on the Sunset Strip. So this is like Motley Crew era, you know, like Sunset Strip from Van Halen through Motley

crew was just like everybody and their brother was moving into town to start a band. and there were some local kids in the neighborhood who were really talented. So you'd record their demos and get them gigs at Gazaris or Whiskey a Go-Go or The Roxy or whatever, the Trubidor. And so getting to see these young adults, I guess, you know, 18-year-olds come in,

it just left a big impression on me. And that was around the time I was maybe about 14 or so. 13, 14, I started getting really into playing the bass guitar. But I played other instruments. leading up to that, you know, the accordion was my first instrument at nine years old. And then I went to like saxophone and I was 11 or 12. But then when my dad built the studio and I started really getting into rock music was when I picked up the guitar and then ultimately the bass guitar. And, you know, so having that studio looking back, I mean, I didn't realize it then, but it definitely made a big impact on what I would be doing in the future.

it's so weird you know the first instrument you mentioned is probably the most complicated of all of them you know like the accordion where your left hands playing kind of a baseline

but also kind of choosing if it's a what kind of chord it is while you're playing the melody on the right hand it's not the same thing to me it's conceptually one of the more complicated instruments. And that was the first one you picked up. That seems...

Well, yeah. And the reason why I think I picked it up, well, it's definitely the reason why I picked it up. It's cheaper to own an accordion than to buy a piano for the house, you know. And so there was a music school opening up not far from where I was living at the time. And so the accordions were, I think the way that they did is that if you paid a certain amount a month, they'll let you rent the accordion. And then you can maybe rent to own the accordion the longer you took your lesson. So it's just way more cost-efficient to have an accordion than a piano. But yeah, looking back on it, it definitely developed my ear of, like, independence between

the left hand and with the bass. It's doing bass and chords, you know, the umpapa or whatever. It's the bass and then the chord, bass note in the chord, and then you're playing your melodies and possibly harmonizing with yourself on the right hand. So, yeah, it was awesome, and I loved it. I had a great teacher that I looked up to and admired. And then as I got a little bit older, I was like, I had a buddy who wanted to play the saxophone,

and I thought the saxophone would be fun and cool, and I'd get to sit next to each other in the band. So the saxophone became my thing, but very quickly after that is when, you know, we start talking about wanting to start a band with that same buddy. And he wanted to play guitar, so I kind of, by default, got handed a bass. And I also had another friend who was playing,

was an incredible keyboard player, but he was being forced in the jazz band to play the bass lines because nobody was playing bass. So he begged me, he's like, Mike, please come back in the ninth grade, playing the bass. So I can play, you know, some of my Chick-Korea licks, and I don't have to worry about just handling the baseline.

So that was the agreement. And so I took a base, yeah, I just kind of, the summer leading into my ninth grade year, I just shedded the base until I could play some bass lines. came back in the ninth grade ready to roll. This would be a good time to go to the next segment, which is what would Ricky Reed ask Mike Elizondo and The Writer is? Oh, okay.

And Ricky Reed says, he says, what's the best big personality vintage base for under $1,000? I ask that because if you're playing in a high school band, that might be a feasible kind of base to get to. So what would you answer me? Man, I would say like a Gibson, like a Gibson S.G. Base, you know, those are still pretty cheap. And they're a little bit smaller scale. So especially if it's your first base, it's a little bit easier to kind of move around. But it's like, it's what the Jackson 5 used. It's what like a ton of your favorite dub and reggae records. Like they still, they will sound great forever. I still play my, my Gibson SG base all. I think they're actually called E. There's like the E. There's like the E. E.B series. So it looks like an SG guitar, but it's called the EBO.

Then they have the EB1, EB2, EB3. So I think it's the EBOO is the one that I'm talking about. Love it. Yeah. Okay, so first of all, that's actually maybe the best advice will ever give on the podcast is actually the real

instrument that you can get. Yes. I'm always fascinated with where you are now, the musical journey, it all sort of starts to make sense here. where if you're a one-man rhythm section playing accordion, and then the next instrument is all melody with sacks,

you know, it's only like, especially tenor sacks, right? So like you're playing like, you're playing melodies. You've now know the rhythm section, you know melodies, you've been listening to the Beatles, so you have a melodic bassist that you're listening to, you know, and then you're in jazz where you actually have to pay attention to everybody in the room. You know, it all makes sense when you have somebody who's such a melodic bassist who can produce a full band, especially growing up with a father who's essentially, he's a producer.

He's not just recording these guys. He's a producer. So this is all very clear on the journey. One question, did your dad ever get into the business of selling records? I know that he was recording these for these bands and then they would, you know, to help them play shows. But did he end up ever having, did any of those bands become, you know, a motley crew of sorts?

Yeah, I mean, some of these bands had a short run. Nothing that was like nationwide famous or anything like that or maybe got any major label deals. One of the things that he would also do, which is one of my favorite fondest memories, is he would book backyard parties in our backyard. So our backyard had an alleyway that was perfect for, that's the entrance to the backyard.

So he would book one or two or sometimes three of these bands. We'd build the stage out in the backyard with the lighting rig and the whole nine. And they'd have like these amazing block party, backyard parties or two or three of the bands that he was working with would come and play a 30 or 45 minute set. And the backyard would be, I mean, jam-packed, like more than I could even imagine just sardines and kids also like on their roofs and the next neighboring houses um you know not to get my dad into trouble but they would sell you know they had bought

the kegs of beer so out of my bedroom they'd open the window and that was where they were selling beer to the you know to every all the patrons coming in um so they did really well you know so i would say it was an entrepreneur in the sense that they would book these gigs you know and And then ultimately the gig would get set down when the helicopter, the police helicopter light would beamed down on the, you know. But these would happen pretty frequently. And as a kid, I was sitting on the roof of my house watching these bands play was like, this is the coolest thing ever, you know.

And it feels like that part of me is always there, you know. Yeah, that's interesting because I assume most kids who play instruments, part of the playing the instruments means that you're, You're kind of pushed to be the one on stage. But growing up with a father who's actually recording in a studio, you learn the idea that you don't necessarily have to be on stage. Yeah. Other than playing in high school and later in college,

did you ever have the desire to go on tour? Yeah. So my whole goal, once I found the base, was to be in a band, get signed so we could tour the world. Like that's all, that was my vision. I also, you know, have, there's a part of me that's just, you know, internally built to, like, want to be the best at whatever I'm doing, just to prove to myself, you know.

And so as a musician, I would challenge myself, you know, and I would push myself or find other people I could learn from to just become a better musician. But ultimately, I just wanted to be in a band. I wanted to be in a, more than likely, a heavier rock band, you know, metal or hard rock or whatever. Then eventually, as I got older, my musical takes. opened up and I looked for other types of bands.

But it wasn't until high school that I even realized that there was such a thing like as a studio musician. And that came about because I went to Hamilton High School in Culver City, who was starting a music academy music magnet. And the drummer just so happened to be Abraham LaBoreal Jr., you know, arguably the greatest living drummer in the planet now. And explain real quick before you jump on that. He's currently he's Paul McCartney's drummer, but he's one of the most in-demand-session

drummers. You've heard them on all your favorite records and tons of hits and tons of movies and tons of everything. When he's not on the road with Paul McCartney, he's booked solid in the studio. And he's just, you know, rightly so. He was gifted from high school. Like when I met him, he was fully formed, incredible. the LeBron James of drums for sure. And so he was my, he was a year older.

And so that became a lot of times what would happen is I would find somebody who was much better than me. And then it became my goal to gain their respect. Like, how can I be good enough for Abe LaBorelle Jr. To think I was good enough to play with them. And so I would just go home and practice for six, seven, eight hours a day until I felt like I could hang with Abe. Or he was giving me some assurances that I could hang with him. In that process, come to find out that his father is the legendary bass player, Abel Borrell, Sr. And Abraham Sr. has played on tons of records from the 70s and 80s and continues to this day,

you know, played on all the frozen soundtracks. I mean, he's one of my biggest heroes. And so he was the first person that I met that explained to me what a studio musician is and what they do. And so I'm like, oh, my gosh, well, I want to be good enough to be a studio musician. And you start learning about Toto and all of these different, you know, the different cliques of musicians in L.A. who played on the Steely Dan records and then who played on all these, you know, incredible musicians who were like, you know, and then obviously in the 60s, you had the wrecking crew, you know. And I wanted to be one of those guys. I still wanted to be in a band, but I started to like look at this possibility of being a session musician.

And then fast forward into getting into jazz and classical music and learning in high school. and into college to play the acoustic bass, the upright bass, and becoming really deep into jazz music. So I just kept, it was like my head was on a swivel. I'd find new musicians or new music, and I just would immerse myself in it, especially during high school and college. Yeah, it really makes sense.

People who know you as a bassist, you know, I remember, you know, this is, I want to stay on track, but, you know, obviously you played based on the wrong man album. And we did that album where you brought Trevor, which will, who will get to in a minute,

to play drums and Ricky Reed produced it. And you showed up and you listened to what's to me a pretty complex album. And you charted it the way that studio musicians, the best studio musicians in Nashville chart, you were so, you're so good at it. And I feel like most of the music business are people who copy and paste stuff.

They play, you know, they play bass on their keyboard in front of them using a bass sample. They don't necessarily have the true education of somebody who can show up, listen to music, write out charts in real time, then go play it and give it three takes and something in there's going to be golden. And it's like it is so fun to watch. And, you know, when they, when they, we do the uh uh the visual documentary about your life so much of it should be people actually watching you play bass versus just seeing that you've produced this song and produced that song that's not

how that just looks like that that reads one way but if you can see you play it is such a joy so it's it's good to hear that background now you're you're this this super high school experience You have Manny Merrickon who's also a, you know, maybe the one of the two biggest mixing engineers in the history of pop music. What was it like to have, you know, what was Manny doing at that time? Oh, we're frozen. We're frozen. Okay. I think you're coming up.

Oh, yeah, we're back. Yeah, maybe we're back. Are we good? Yeah, we're back. Okay, cool. We're back. And I think you were asking me about. Mani Mark Quinn and yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's, we'll go back. So, you know, when you, you were in this super high school, like this amazing, you know, iconic, you know, with Abe as your drummer and you as a bass and then you have Mani American is one of the greatest mixing engineers of all time. also in your school, were you guys starting to do some of those studio sessions in high school? So I met, yeah, I don't think I did any studio recording, like, officially for any major labels or major artists. But I did meet some other musicians who wound up going to Hamilton. You mentioned his name Trevor Lawrence. There was another musician named Justin Morel. and Justin's dad had a 24 track recording,

real-to-reel recording studio, and we would get together at their house to jam, and we'd record ourselves with the headphones, playing, you know, jamming, working out arrangements, and that was my first real recording. And it was really relaxed, and it was a lot of fun, and you're with your friends. And it 100%, like that experience led me to, like,

not ever get that there's that thing that they call about like the fear of the red light you know when the red light records a lot of times musicians kind of tense up like oh my gosh am i ready am i going to make a mistake or whatever because i was maybe 17 16 you i think actually as long as i was maybe 15 years old when i met justin and trevor and we were just jamming all the time recording ourselves listening to playback and so that was my first you know um thing recording And then in college I maybe met some other artists who would bring me in to record their demos. And little by little I would do stuff like that. But high school, not a lot of recording other than the jam sessions I was doing with my friends.

Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends. And repeat guests on the writer is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on.

They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans. That's the kind of person Evan is in real life, and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work. Because of him, we have Songwriter of the year. Because of him, we have songwriter's added to the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now.

Hey, guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is.

If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right. It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Most jazz instrumentalists do not make very good pop players because, you know, one, the improvisation versus that ability to sort of hold down the form of the song. During this journey of being a good basis, were their composition, you know, teachers, were their goals to actually be part of creating music and not just playing to music?

Yeah. It didn't start happening until I think I got into some bands where I was, you know, encouraged to maybe show up and we would jam and write. But prior to maybe age 22, it was all about being the best bass player. Like, I really wanted to be able to play with the bow and sound like Edgar Meyer and play, you know, jazz like Ray Brown and Ron Carter, you know, and then play electric bass like Paul McCartney and James Jamerson and John Paul Trump. Like, I just had my heart set on just wanting to be the best version of all of my heroes.

blended into one. But it wasn't until, yeah, I started to play in some of my first real bands where we were like gigging in L.A. And then one of them ended up getting a record deal onto Atlantic Records, which is where I started to get the bug of writing and being a part of a writing session, you know, with your bandmates. And that kind of got planted the seed there. Which artist was that? So the band was with Trevor Lawrence was the drummer.

band was called Budahat. And the record never came out. It was just a, it was a band that got signed to Atlantic Records. Craig Kelman was sort of involved, but, you know, it was more in the background.

But the album never came out. But it was the first time I learned about publishing, about recording contracts, about management and lawyers and all of the above. But we made a record that ultimately got shelved.

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's definitely the story of most people's first major label albums. So that makes sense. I guess while we're on the Atlantic, is it freezing again? Okay. We froze for a quick second. Okay, cool. We're back.

Joe's going to have fun editing this one. Okay. You know, while we're on Atlantic, then we might as well go to this next segment, which is what would Pete Gamburg ask Mike Elizondon and the writer is. Nice. And he says, of all the producers I know you are the most versatile hands down, no one can go from Avenge Sevenfold to We Don't Talk About Bruno to Carrie Underwood to stressed out. How do you account for being so ridiculously diverse and versatile?

Well, thank you for that, Pete. It's like a question but a compliment at the same time. You know, I just, I'm always so curious. You know, even there's certain types of music that I didn't have any. right being in the room with this artist, you know, or that artist. But I was always just so curious about like, man, I wonder if there is something I could bring to the table and kind of meet them halfway, you know. So I always, yeah, I always kind of walk into it thinking, okay, well, you know, I'm going to

learn something. If nothing else, if they think I'm, you know, not a good fit, I'm going to walk in. So I've just, you know, just trying to walk in and learn something from these artists and see, see if I can contribute something to what they are looking for and sometimes it's worked out, you know, and then you get that credit on a, you know, on a genre that you never expected to. And then if it's a success,

then more people start coming. And then you're like, okay, let me try and be, you know, see, I not set myself up for failure. And there's sometimes where you're like, you know, I don't know that I'm going to, you know, do that artist any good. So I'll just back out of that one. But then just sort of pick the ones that you think,

you're going to you're going to be able to find a common ground common area meeting point yeah that takes such self-awareness and um i mean maybe just that it just takes such self-awareness to be able to pick and choose projects where you feel like you can actually contribute to it and not just ones that are good opportunities there's some way like especially in your position i'm sure you get hit up all the time with projects where on paper it looks like such a good opportunity but musically it may just not be sure that happens at the time right

yeah it does I mean you know you learn I've been doing this a good amount of time you kind of learn those skills along the way and you step into those situations you're like oh okay yeah this isn't comfortable or this I'm not in the right place or with the right people and then you start to like try your best to to foresee

when those situations might not be right for you but yeah you just sort of develop your own radar as time goes on. All right, we're back at C-San, Buddha Hat just gets shelved, and you and Trevor Lawrence become like kind of a rhythm section that

you've now played together for many years. You guys have already been gone to studios recorded with a major label, even if it didn't come out. From then on, it's like you've already had the first goal, which was to get the record deal. But the second goal of touring the world, that's

slightly different, you know? Yeah, yeah. So here you start playing on major, you start playing on some major artists, and you start getting pulled in. And at this era, these are really big names. Cheryl Crowe, Rai Cooter, Fiona Apple. I mean, even Rye is like a world-class guitarist.

Like, I'm sure that there were, you know, what a cool thing to be called up to the majors playing with, you know, an iconic instrumentalist like that. Oh, man. Yeah, it still is like, wow, did that really happen? You know, I'm so grateful for that era and all those people that would call me. There was one person, her name was Valerie Pack, who was the production coordinator for the producer of the album that we were making for Buddha Hat.

His name was Richard Wolfe. Valerie Pack was a production coordinator, and so she kind of, I guess, naturally gravitated towards me as the point person to, like, communicate things to the band and hear when the sessions, and then I'd go and talk to the band. So she and I became very close. When the Buddha hat thing didn't take off, she would call me up and say,

hey, I'm working on a record for T. Bone Burnett. Or I'm working on a record for Matt Wallace or Matthew Wilder. I think you'd be great. I'm going to refer you. And the next thing I know, I'm getting these calls from these producers because of this one amazing, you know, person, Valerie. And so she single-handedly introduced me to T-bone Burnett,

which led to, you know, it's like you meet one or two producers and then you meet those musicians and then it opened, fortunately for me, open the floodgate. So I got to meet T-Bone Burnett, which introduced me to Jim Keltner, and Jim Keltner introduces me to Rai Kudor. And then, you know, I do a session for Matthew Wilder, who's just coming off of the No Doubt, Tragic Kingdom record, and he's hiring me for tons of records.

And then I meet Matt Wallace and, you know, and all these, this amazing Glenn Ballard, and all these amazing producers start hiring me. And right at the same time is when I meet Dr. Dre. And it all happened simultaneously. I'm starting to get studio work. And a buddy of mine that I went to high school with, the same Hamilton High School,

became Dre's assistant engineer. His name's Richard Haredia, aka Seagal. Because everyone has to have a nickname. When you work in rap and hip-hop, it's a given. You have to have a nickname. So Seagal, aka Richard Heredia, brought me into a session with Dre,

who at that time I'm just thinking, oh, it's just another really amazing producer I get to work for, and I'm just going to go in and see what happens. And it turns out it wasn't a session for Dre. It was a session for one of his producers that he had signed to his newly formed aftermath entertainment label and production company. But all of that stuff started to happen all at the same time.

It's so crazy. I have so many questions with that. One is what was your nickname? Because for sure, somebody called you a nickname somewhere where you're like, that is not going to stick. But somebody called you something. What did they call you? Yeah, they did.

Okay. So it was once they found out I was from Peklema and I think I let the cat out of the bag like, oh yeah, you know where Richie Valens came by. And one guy, Melman, says, oh, you're Bamba like La Bamba. Because your baselines are the bomb. Like at that time, saying something was the bomb was in fashion.

So he's like, but yeah, you're Bomba, man. From here, I'm going to just call you Bomba. And so he tried to get it. I'd say it was about 50% of the people call me Bomba. Most people still call me Mike. Dre only called me Mike. Every once in a while, like if you had a few drinks and he's like, what's up, Bomba?

But it was never credited on any records as Bomba. But that was my spelled B-O-M-B-A. was my nickname due to my ties to Richie Valens and fortunately having baselines they thought were the bomb. I love that so much. My first sessions outside of being in a band were with Drey and Vidal from Philly. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And they used to call me Ross the Gloss. And so there's like a small group of people that still like joke about that. But that never like, obviously that never stuck too hard. Thank God. Okay, so, but before you get to Drey, you sign a publishing deal with Steve Lindsay, who ends up becoming an icon and signing a lot of, you know, new talent. You know, what prompted you to sign a publishing deal coming from a basis perspective? Like at that point, you've done some co-writing, but you weren't necessarily, you know,

doing the kind of writing you're about to get into. Yeah, no, absolutely. I had, yeah, I started to realize that, you know, being in a band, I loved the camaraderie and being, you know, being a part of, like, creating stuff and creating original music within that band. But once the band stuff started to dry out, I would tell other artists that I was maybe playing bass for every blue moon. I would just, like, I wouldn't, you'd have to do it strategically because you don't want to, like, be that guy, you know. But I would just say, hey, if you ever want to get together and jam on some new stuff, let me know. and then those turned into like little writing sessions. There was an amazing producer, musician that I met named John O'Brien,

not the John Bryan that we all know from Fiona Apple, but John O'Brien, who was, you know, unfortunately he's not with us anymore, but was a huge inspiration. And he gave me my first MPC, taught me how to sample stuff, and taught me how to arrange and write with MIDI. And so John really kind of, you know, took me under his wing in the sense that he would bring me into writing sessions. And I remember one of the first things that I ever got a writing credit on

was for an artist named Poe, who was on Atlantic Records. And Poe and John and I ended up writing a bunch of songs on her second album called Haunted. And that was right around the same time that I met Steve Lindsay. And I was doing sessions for Dre, but I wasn't getting writer's credit. it. But I started to realize, like, man, this is something I'd love to do. And Steve, Lindsay, had a really cool, you know, group of people and a network of older songwriters, like, you know, that I, people, I wouldn't say, you know, just people who had a lot of wisdom and a lot of knowledge, people like David Barrowald, you know, that I was really, you know, open and excited to meeting.

And so he had a joint venture with the publishing company at the time called Winswept. Pacific. And windswept now, I think, is now basically at some point a long time ago got bought by BMG. But at the time, it was kind of run as a boutique. It was like a boutique, but had major backing money. And so I just thought, man, this would be cool to just really get to immerse myself, do less session work by taking an advance meant that I could do a little less session work and dedicate more time to writing. And then I want to be able to. And then I want to be a lot of and say less than a year, maybe six or seven months after signing that publishing deal, is when Drey started giving me writer's credit on the things that I was working with him on.

What was that? Why did that change? I was going to ask you about that. You said, you know, he played on a bunch of things, but you didn't get writers credit on it. What were some of the records that you didn't get writers credit on? And how did you, like, how did that transition change? it feels like once people get used to a certain precedent that, that nothing would change that. I mean, what happened? Yeah, I was really nervous about it. Also, a very important thing happened during this period is that I got married.

You know, and so I have my wife, you know, my life partner. I mean, we've been together now 25 years. So my wife and I would talk to her about everything. And she has no music background, no music industry background, whatever, but just on a human level, I could kind of go and say, what do you think of the situation and get the most amazing advice? So I credit my wife with giving me the advice that I needed to hear, which was I was loving the situation with Dre.

He was bringing me in. He was paying me well as a session musician. But there was a song called Bitch Please, that was Snoop with Exhibit. And it was on TRL back when MTV played. played videos. There's the the TRL show. I remember it going number one on TRL, and I played every instrument. I played the bass. I played the keys. Played everything on that. If I didn't get a writer's credit. And, you know, I'm like, wow, okay. And then Dre's, well, also the,

the first M&M record was also a couple of songs. I didn't write the real slim, or my name is, but there were a couple of other songs on there where I came up with the bass lines, you know. There's a song called Guilty Conscience, you know, and that record obviously was doing really well. And then Dre's 2001 record, all the baselines that I played on, all the songs that I played on,

I wrote those baselines, you know, and the production style at that time, the baselines were big part of the hooks, and a lot of times the rappers would sing their hook incorporating my baseline, you know, but didn't get writers credit, you know, but I, but Dray was so busy that it was like, how do I just tell him I'm not going to do it? How do I, so my wife told him, told me, she's like, why don't you just stop saying yes to as many sessions with Dre and just say, say you're busy, you know, if another session comes up, don't make Dre the priority, make,

Glenn Ballard the priority and say yes to this record or T-bone Burnett. And so there were a couple of times for maybe about two weeks where I told Dre, I could make it on Monday, but I can't make the rest of the days. And after about two weeks, I get a phone call from Dre saying, hey, I'm going to need you here more frequently and more consistently. We're getting ready to start Eminem's second record. And from here on out, I'll give you equal writer's credit for everything we work on. So I actually didn't ever have to ask for it. I just sort of, my wife was just like, look, if Dre thinks you're valuable, he'll offer it to you. And that was exactly what happened. So I didn't have to have that uncomfortable, like, you know, demanding anything or putting Dre and backing him up into a corner

or giving him an ultimatum or anything like that. I just sort of played my cards and just made myself less available. And fortunately, he thought I was, I was of value enough to offer that to me, which made him feel good about it and ultimately made me feel good about it. it's funny my my wife always says to me she's like do i get paid overtime or do i get you know she's like do i get so writing credit on that and you're and i always say like well you get 50 percent you get 50 percent exactly right it's exactly right which i'm glad to pair you know yeah so my wife was was was big john o'brien also i'd ask him for advice you know so but it worked out in the end and then um you know from that point on from the second m&m record anytime

I was in the studio and I contributed a guitar part or a keyboard part, but something to create it, you know, not the overdubs, but to like, I'm in the room with Dre and maybe it's Dre and myself. That's how like a song, like in the club came up, which is Dre on, you know, programming a drumbeat and I'm trying to find some music to go on top of it. Sometimes it was Dre myself and Scott Storch or Mark Batson and it was, and we just treat it like a jam session except for Dre's on the drums on the MP and me, you know, sometimes me or sometimes another musician, and we're just trying to find hooks and trying to find these things. And, you know, Dre would just hook us up with writer's credit from that point on.

So for like in the club, are you sitting there doing like the baseline? Are you doing like the stabs? Like the dun dun dun dun dun dun. Are you the one playing the stabs? Yeah, other than the drums, I played every instrument on that song. And the way it started is. Dre, sometimes, you know, it's interesting with Dre. Sometimes he'll get fixated on a certain thing.

Like, he's trying to nail this one thing. And sometimes he'll, like, get really impatient. So, like, you might be onto something thinking, oh, my gosh, we're about to crack the code on something that's going to be amazing. And then Dre will get bored. And he's like, now, let's move on to something else. And then with this particular thing, though, he had that drumbeat. And he was just like, man, there's something in this drumbeat.

And I was the only one there. So I think maybe I started on guitar, couldn't come up with something he liked. I went to the keyboard, no, went to the bass, couldn't find something he liked. I probably tried for like an hour, trying to find something that he felt excited about. And then I went to the keys,

and then I'm trying to find something. And then finally, like, this would happen a lot because we're writing all the time. I stopped thinking about music, and I just start, like, literally going, if my left hand goes down, my right hand will go up. And I'm just trying to, like,

almost like a math, you know, equation like what notes can I play where the baseline goes up and the and the melody goes down and that's how I came up with the the stabs on in on in the club was just by not thinking about chords or harmony or theory but just what how can I move my hands and drave's like what's that what are you playing I'm like okay I think I finally nailed I finally nailed it and in that session happened to be a session for um uh D12 M&M's rap group And they were trying to find a track to get on the 8-mile soundtrack. And they came in and we had a few other ideas.

Dre played them that idea, but it wasn't what they were looking for. They were looking for something specific and that beat wasn't it. So Dre just kind of stashed it. But I want to say it was even possibly the same day and told Dre about this, this rapper named 50 Cent that he wanted to sign to Shady and that he wanted. to bring Dre in on it and do it as a shady aftermath signing. I want to say it was the same day or maybe like the day after. And then maybe two months after that session that D12 passed on what would become in the

club, 50 shows up to the studio, same studio, same room with M. And the first B. D.D. Dre plays them is what becomes in the club. It's so hard to fathom that, you know, that that does become the biggest song probably of that. year and at that point you know albums are selling plus singles are selling plus you know it's like a really good time for the music business for a songwriter and for a producer so to have that kind of record on a business level is cool but on an emotional level to hear a song you know the m&m stuff these these albums sold like 20 million copies worldwide yeah yeah i mean yeah the the the the Marshall Mathers LP, you know, I think just in the states alone, I think, sold at that time.

I remember, I remember getting a plaque when I was still working with Drey, you know, 15, you know, more than 15 years ago, 20 years ago, for 13 million copies. Like, I'm like, how, it's unbelievable, you know. And, yeah, so records were definitely selling, record stores were thriving, you know, Napster was maybe starting to become a thing, you know, but yeah, these were, these records were still, you know, full album sales. What is the, you know, you still go home,

your wife gives you good advice. My guess is she was always keeping you grounded. Yeah. But then when you go home to Pekoyama and you see your family and you have the biggest albums and biggest song in the world, is there,

I guess, I mean, you know, how did you stay humble during that? Yeah. Well, I mean, definitely being married 100%, you know, my wife Trista has kept me grounded through all the ups and the downs, you know.

Yeah, so, you know, I would say for sure having, you know, my wife and at that time also having kids. So my first, you know, child was born right as the real Slim Shady was happening. And so having my daughter Grace and then soon after her having my twin daughter, Sophie and Lily, that just you just you know that's everything you know the big hits and everything are like you're just excited because now you know you can afford diapers and you can like start thinking about maybe college for them you know but it's because it just was all about them and so you know if if i was single and um and not married and all that stuff was happening you know who knows what trappings you'd fall into and and all the other things you know um

You know, also, Dre, Drake kept us humble. You know, Drey had already done NWA and did Death Row and was starting aftermath. And his mentality was almost like he was 18 years old getting to work in the studio for the first time. Like he was so hungry and so driven to get aftermath to be a success. You know, while Eminem's records are doing huge, we're already on to the next two or three records. So you're kind of in this bubble. even thinking about it unless you go to a family barbecue and they're like, oh my gosh, you know, you're not thinking about it. You know, my brothers, you know, were and are huge rap

fans. And so when I was growing up listening to, you know, Metallica and then eventually jazz and different things, like rap music was not a part of my record collection at all. Like I didn't maybe had a public enemy record and licensed to ill by BC boys. But it wasn't things that I, I didn't listen to that. I was more into like, what are the instruments doing? So it wasn't until meeting Dre, really, that I started to immerse myself into that, you know, that record collection.

But, yeah, you know, so my brothers were really excited for me and a lot of cousins and different things. But, you know, Dre was just like, all right, you know, it's cool that that's popping off, but like, what's next? Like, what are we doing next? And so that mentality mixed with my wife and my kids, you know, definitely will keep you just.

focused on what's next. Yeah, and I think hip hop and rap especially at that time, you know, still with MPCs, it's all about sampling. And again, the idea of a jazz instrumentalist being like, no,

it just needs to be this hook and just stick with this hook and know that the baseline needs to be a hook. Yeah. The right hand needs to be hooked, the left hand needs to be a hook. And that's like, that's the, that's it.

But then to have the wherewithal to not overplay. And did you find yourself loving that music as you were getting further into it? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, Dre really kind of created an environment of experimentation. Like, he wanted us to bring in pedals or a new cue.

I, you know, I can take credit. Maybe there's someone who will challenge me by making this a public thing. I don't know if I've ever said this, like especially on a podcast, is widely listened to as you. But I was the first one to bring in soft sense to the studio, bring in a laptop.

and hook it up and get it to sync with Dre's MPC and show him what softsense were and show them what plugins can do and different things like that. That wasn't part of our creative, you know, process. But as soon as that happened, we were off to the races and everybody, you know, we, Dre bought three rigs that mirrored my rig

with all the same plugins and all the same softsence. And, you know, we got them all to work because he still liked sequencing on the MPC. we got them all to sync with that. And, you know, things like that, things like being able to loop my bass lines and my guitar parts in real time. You know, I love the environment.

And so I was constantly trying to push. My goal was to get Dre to be excited about something, a sound, a hook, a riff, you know, and that's the way I approached it. And by that process, it taught me the importance of simplicity and consistency and the production and also getting to be a part of watching him produce vocals,

It was my university. It was watching how to navigate, you know, managers in A&R. You know, Jimmy Ivan comes in to listen to the record and has his comments. Just being a fly on the wall and watching Drey navigate that, 100% set me up for the career that I'd eventually have. You jumped to all kinds of, you know, different music outside of Drey. And that must have been a personal choice to reach out but to work with people like Fiona Apple

and then later Maroon 5 and Carrie Underwood you couldn't go further from that Dre world to go into Fiona Apple and there's probably nothing at that time this is when Maroon 5 is more of a band so to work with Maroon 5 at that time is totally different

than either Fiona Apple or Dre and then to work with Carrie Underwood is like what's going on? So in those few years you clearly made an effort to move to expand outside of just falling into being at that studio with Dre. Was that a musical decision? Yeah, definitely.

I was at this point getting songwriters credit and production credit on a lot of the stuff with Dre. And then I'd get asked to work with other rappers, but they're, you know, when you've worked, when you're working with Eminem and 50 Cent and the game, you know, that's the, at that time, it was as good as it could get. And so I'm like, well, I have other types of music. I'd love to explore. I, the Fiona Apple, I actually played in the string orchestra on Fiona Apple's second album, When the Pond. And then fast forward six years, you know, John Bryan is reaching out to me about possibly working on

on some music with Fiona. And it just blew my mind, you know. And so Fiona, I was introduced through John Bryan, not the John O'Brien that we talked about earlier, but the actual John Brian, who had produced, you know, previous records for her. So John introduced me to Fiona, and I was like, yes, I'll do whatever, you know.

And that eventually becomes a record that, you know, probably the biggest record at that moment that wasn't hip-hop that I got a production credit on. And I think a lot of people in the industry maybe saw that as like, who didn't know me, who were like, wait, I thought Mike was like a hip-hop beatmaker guy. But he has the chops to be able to hang with a musician and songwriter and an artist at the caliber of Fiona. You know, it started, you know, people were intrigued by it. And that ultimately is why I got called in by Maroon Five is they're like, he can work with Dre, but he can also work with Fiona. So he's musical, but he's contemporary in different ways that we want to incorporate.

into our production. And then that ended up to get me the gig with, you know, those two credits alone got me the gig with Maroon 5. And then even after Maroon 5, I grew up loving, harder-edged, you know, metal music. And the biggest band at that time was Avenge Sevenfold. I'm like, man, I'd love to work with Adventure 7-fold and weaseled my way into getting a meeting with them. But they're like looking at my credits going, like, what do you know?

But in person, I could at least prove to them that I'd know this genre. or at least I know the things that they're influenced by, like Guns and Roses, like Metallica, like Iron Maiden, and prove to them that I have the chops that I can bring to helping them. And we ended up doing two albums together and then, you know, Carrie Underwood. I just had always, I started meeting songwriters like Steve McEwen and people who would go to Nashville. And, you know, for me, I just thought Nashville was kind of its own entity, like, you know, like a,

club that you can't break into. It's like either you've got to live there or you're not being let in. But Steve McEwen was really the first person to encourage me. And Steve just went a Grammy, which I'm so excited. He won that Grammy with John Batiste. But Steve encouraged me to go there. And I went there and I just started working with a new manager named Steve Moyer. And Steve Moore had a relationship with with Carrie's management and and uh they they ended up working out a trip where I would write with songwriters who had written with Carrie and you know, Brett James the day that I wrote with Carrie was with Brett James and we had two days scheduled and the second the second day that we were we were writing together we come up with the song that becomes

you know, cowboy Casanova and uh and then that kind of was like okay well I guess I can try and, you know, use that to build off of and build those relationships with other writers in Nashville. And I kind of maintain that ever since. Yeah, I mean, you also had, during this time, you work with some bands that are, you have some gospel stuff in there. You're working with some different kinds of music outside of it. I know religion is a part of your life. how how did you maintain that with this same sort of like drive to do you know all this different music?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, my faith, you know, and it's definitely, it's something that I hold, you know, for myself in terms of like how I want to grow as a person and how I want to treat my wife and how I want to raise my kids and how I want to treat my friends and treat strangers and whatnot. But to me, I feel like art doesn't need to be dictated by my personal beliefs. And we all have our lines that we draw. There might be some times where I've gotten asked to work on something as I've gotten older

where I'm like going, yeah, I don't know if I feel comfortable with that. But it's our own personal choice and our own. We all draw our lines for whatever makes sense to us. But ultimately, you know, I work with artists. because I feel like they have something to contribute and they have something that they believe in and that they're passionate about. And I'm now in a position where I try and just link up

to what they want to do. It's not my personal beliefs. I'm not the artist. I'm there to support the artist as a writer, as a producer, and trying to draw from their life experiences. And yeah, sometimes they don't really line up. Obviously, I'm, you know, I'm 49 years old, you know, So if I'm writing with someone who's in their mid-20s,

we're not going to have the same life experiences, but I can be there to help make sure that the story stays on track, that the melodies are catchy, what chords, what feel, you know, all that other stuff. But in terms of my faith, it's never, you know, it's evolved as time has gone by and how and what projects I do. I don't necessarily look at it like, oh, well, what's the lyrical content? And do their beliefs line up with my beliefs?

I just try and keep an open mind. and feel like I'm just going to walk in and meet this person with where they're at in their life and just try and be a light in whatever room I walk into. You have this crazy run with Dre. And then you do a lot of these albums that get critical acclaim. In fact, you even get nominated producer of the year in 2008. You have all these different really cool albums.

But, you know, aside from the Carrie Underwood, you have some that chart here. They chart there. Some even went platinum. Some even, you know, decent. success but it's not does it it doesn't totally match the same kind of like numbers that you were having with dray did you feel at that time that did that ever concern you because obviously you end up with a whole new chapter after that but does that start to concern you in your career because there's

you know seven years there eight years there of of going on a musical journey that has some commercial success but not the same kind of success you had had previously. I didn't really think about it, to be honest with you. I was just so grateful for the artists that were coming through and the people I was getting to work with. And, you know, there were some records that, you know, maybe you work on and you think are going to be bigger than they end up being. But, you know, I can't control that.

You know, I wasn't, you know, I'm not the record label and I'm not the artist. And, you know, as far as all the different factors that go. into making something a success. I can only control, you know, up to the record being made. I also, you know, I also had this dream of wanting to be, you know, part of that club of the, of the producers. You know, you'd see a lot of producers who'd have a big hot streak for a real quick amount of time.

And then you're like, oh, whatever happened to so-and-so? How come so-and-so is I'm making records anymore? And so I really looked at people at the time like Rob Cavallo or Steve Lilly White, Rick Rubin for sure, and was like, man, I want to be one of those people. Like when, you know, at the end of it all, like I can go into a room and know, you know, have my chops, you know, and not just sort of be a flavor of the month. So I was just looking for artists, whether they were huge artists, whether they were just about to, you know, their first album or if they're on the cusp of breaking.

I was just trying to find things that I just thought I could contribute to. And, you know, and some things were a surprise. Some things ended up being bigger than I even expected them to be. But I was just grateful that I had steady work. And, you know, at that point I felt like I was playing with house money. You know, all of that, and still to this day, like, is way beyond the dream and the goal that I had as a musician, way beyond. And so I felt like I was playing with house money. but at the same time, I was driven because I had my wife and my four kids that I knew I had to provide for

and wanted to make sure I was giving them, you know, a stability. So I was driven, but I wasn't looking at the number. I wasn't numbers driven. It was more about the creativity and the artists. Yeah, I mean, you know, before we get to this next chapter, I just wanted to also ask, like you start taking a role at Warner Records. you start taking on, you know, some of the responsibilities of the elders in the business, you know, even if you're in your 30s or 40s, you start getting opportunities to work on some A&R stuff and it's

hard to turn that stuff down. Did you find that to be, and do you still find that to be as inspiring as creating music? No, yeah, I would say no. No, of course not for me. Yeah, inspiration definitely comes from being. around other, you know, musicians and artists and songwriters, 100%. But I was intrigued, you know, at that time, you know, it was known as Warner Brothers, you know, records, but Warner Records now.

Lenny Warrenker had been brought in as a consultant by Tom Wally. And Lenny came from that era of having producers at the, you know, at the label. obviously that amazing heyday of, you know, Ted Templeman and Russ Tidalman and, you know, Gary Katz and, you know, Tommy Lapuma. Like there was this stable of incredible producers all at Warner's. And Atlantic had that at some point, but Warner's was really the last great label to have that stable of awesome producers. So Lenny is the one that reaches out to me about this opportunity. And I didn't know Lenny. I knew his son, Joey Warnock, or was it.

a great drummer and a great friend. But Lenny calls me totally cold and asks me about maybe wanting to take a position as a, as a, as a, as a VP of A&R. And I'm like, man, I've never in a million years ever thought I would do something like that. So I, I, I, I, I turned him down. You know, I said, man, I love just getting to be in the studio. I don't see myself, you know, as a suit, you know, and he's like, no, we'll work it out. We'll work it out. And once a good year goes by, I wound up doing a lot of records for Warner's during that period.

And so Tom Wally approaches me. And I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to do this. And then at that point, Tom Wally, it gets transitioned into Rob Cavallo and Leo Cohen and that whole, that whole era. And so Rob Cavallo is someone I knew. And so Rob, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to go ahead and do this. And, you know, and it was, I look back at it as I gained a lot of, a good deal of understanding of how things operate and politics and budgets and marketing meetings and all that

stuff. And there was a lot of really great people that I met. There were a lot of people that were challenging to like, all right, how do I figure out a way to communicate with this person? But I ultimately looked at it as a way to kind of, you know, develop some young artists. I was able to, you know, sign a group called Echo Smith. And they had a, you know, a top 40 hit with cool kids. And, you know, so I learned. a lot of cool stuff about nurturing young talent, but it also gave me the opportunity to work on behalf of the artist once the album was done.

Usually I would hand off this album to the label and then hope that the ANR and the management were going to take care of it. But now after the record was done, I could go and call the promotion department and now be a part of that. So that part of it was challenging and rewarding and it was nice to do. But after eight years, I realized, you know,

it was starting to take. up more and more of my time out of the studio and I just still felt like this is really my ultimate love and and you know, and that's, you know, after eight years I decided it wasn't something I wanted to continue because, you know, it becomes that sort of like, okay, well, what's the next, you know, uh, stripe I can get? And what's the next thing I can get? And next thing you know, you know, if you're lucky enough, you're, you know, you're high up the, the ladder, but it means less time in the studio, which is not something I was, I was up. for. Yeah, I think the knowledge you get from working on records and signing writers and signing

artists really has made my writing better in a sense that you start to understand the expectations of the label differently. So I would imagine all that, that eight years did not go to waste as much as playing all the base, you know, that you did to try to be the best basis, knowing you you were trying to be the best A&R which only helps you as a writer when you then walk in you're like well I know that the label's not going to like this is not a hit

you know you start to look at songs like that did you know stressed out by 21 pilots was a hit no I knew I knew I loved it I knew it was I knew it had a feel and a bounce to it that was super catchy

but it still was like such an outlier Like, even looking at all the stuff that was popular at that time, it just was like, man, I think that was what at the end of the day ended up being its greatest asset was that it was so different from everything else. But, you know, I could relate to it. There was a musicality that I could relate to, obviously, Tyler and Josh and their approach. I was aware of 21 pilots and actually sort of bug Pete Gambard long enough to get in a room with the two of them,

which led to being able to work on the album Blurry Face. But I was aware of them from early on and was just such an admirer of just the mashup. It was like the first real like indication of like, wow, all these kids that grew up listening to hip hop but also play instruments and want to be in a band but they're influenced by M&M and some of the music I might have done with Dre.

You know, it's starting. That was like the beginning of it, a beginning of me seeing it. And so once I was able to get in a room with them, it was just like, man, you know, I was already a big fan. But to, I don't think any of us predicted. You know, I knew it had a shot. And I remember at one point, I knew how to shot of being, you know, popular, but maybe for just growing their audience. I remember talking to Tyler about, you know, that there's such a great hook when he's saying, you know, my name's, you know, blurry face.

and I'm like going, but no one's going to know who blurry face is. And, you know, is there anything else that we can say? And, you know, just to make it more universal. And it's such a great melody. And he's like, no, he goes, but he tried to explain to me to this character. And I'm like, I don't know, man. And, you know, but ultimately I had to trust him and trust his instincts as an artist. And we kept it as blurry face.

But I think I knew it had a chance of reaching a wider audience than they already had. but for it to become, you know, this phenomenon that it did, I couldn't have predicted that. The, you know, there are all these artists that we grew up listening to that would tell stories. You know, there were eras where a lot of hits were characters. They were stories. I mean, even artists like Tom Waits don't exist if they're not, they're only telling stories. And it's so hard to not, you know, there are sessions you've done. there are pitch sessions where you're trying to get songs cut by another artist.

And I always try to say in a room with an artist is like, let's make this a song that you can't pitch, you know, but still try to believe in it. And yet it still takes everything that a songwriter has to try to, you want to change the blurry face line. But that's the line. I mean, that's the line, exactly. You know, that's the, like a child miscellar. is a blanket line. That's the line that

like I always use that as an example of like this the line where it's like why did they keep that line in the middle of a chorus for you know, Fergie and you're like because it's identifiable and so like something like a word like blurry face can be that's like a brilliant line that yet of course

you're going to try to change it. Yeah your first instinct is to change it and like make it more universal but you know when I when I would think about that lyric it's like it's so personal to Tyler that, you know, but when the listener

listens to it, maybe they didn't have that exact same experience, but they interpret it as their childhood and their own experience. You know, so it kind of gives the listener, you know, the opportunity to just sort of make blurry face whatever you want to make it, you know. But it's so specific to Tyler that it just makes other people make it more specific to them.

So it was a genius lyric by him for sure. Dude. it's I'm the real shady right it's that it's that like like what a cool way to you know 16 years later or something like that

have a song that's essentially the same thing it's totally different but it's not it's a character that's like I totally think that there's I you just happen to do two of the biggest versions of those you know so that makes sense yeah

I know this is a big jump because you've done a lot of stuff between these two. But the next one's also, you know, a character name and a whole other project. But you're just coming off of just this incredible year. You get nominated again this year. And I think that's not even including the Enkanto soundtrack. Right. Yeah, no, Encato will be for next year's Grammy. Dude, this is crazy.

I mean, we got to talk. about Encanto. Yeah. I mean, even we don't talk about Bruno, like the song, it's like... Yeah. I mean, like, we're just talking about a universal lyric. Why does, why is that so universal? It's not let it go.

I know. It's so, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you're, you. I feel like Bruno, you know, for sure, you can't say that like the TikTok generation really fueled a lot of it. You know, so for people to be able to take a song like that and then just personalize it and be creative and do their own reenactments and their own different versions of it, I think is really what fueled a lot of it. Lynn has this incredible ability of writing super complicated like rhythms and lyrics and. rhymes that forces people to want to listen to it over and over again and like challenge themselves to learn every word. You know, and he did it with Hamilton. He's done it over and over again, you know, but I feel like this song, it's just, was just an earworm and people just had to learn

those lyrics and the catchphrase of bruno, no, no, no, no is just, it's just undeniable. You just, you know, and he gets away with that, that amazing tradition of like starting this with the chorus, you know, like, you know, Earth, Win and Fire and all, you know, so many of our favorites can get away with doing. It just, you know, it's got this really fun Latin, you know, acute Colombian Latin, but it's very universally Latin. You know, the baseline is really disjointed in the way that a lot of, you know, Latin music can be. And so I think the track was just very different in that way, but ultimately, Lynn, you know, just wrote such a very compelling character and story. And the big character, Bruno, is not even in this song. Like, it's all

the other family members talking about someone else. And, and I thought, and also, each verse is another character in a completely different tone. So, you know, it's not like you're singing the same verse over and over again. It's like second verse, different character comes in, different melody, different, whatever, you know. So it's just hitting you left and right with something new. And fortunately people, you know, found it, you know, inviting.

Well, in this next segment, we'll say, what would Lynn Manuel Miranda ask Mike Alzano and the writer is? And he says, of all the demos you get from artists of their original writings, that you can help produce, including Lynn's, Fiona Apple, you know, the regrets, and a million other amazing people,

what's been the wildest demo to final product journey? And also, he might get mad at me, but he later texted goes, because my demos are dog shit. But I don't know if that was part of the question. Yeah, I think he's alluding to, like, yeah, his demos, you know, I think I've learned now to listen,

how to listen to his demos, because all the answers are in there. But you kind of have to, like, peel it apart and peel back, you know, solo things up and go, oh, okay, I think I know what this, what his intentions are with this. But Lynn is just trying to get the idea out and, you know, obviously get the lyric and melody together. Yeah, there was definitely some, you know, some challenging, like, deciphering of code from Lynn's demos for Encanto, without a doubt, you know, and things that started off one way. And then once you start thinking, oh, I think I finally got this nailed, decides to take a

complete left turn and like, oh, we're not doing this anymore at that tempo or even in that key where now it's a completely different character and different, you know, so I would, yeah, I would definitely say Lynn's demos for Enkanto were probably the most challenging, but, but very informative at the same time, you know, it wasn't like, you know, I had no idea what I was listening to. But it is, it's cool. I love getting demos from artists where, you know, Some go very far. Now everybody has a laptop and programs to be able to take their demos to the final, almost to like the last 10% of the production.

And then that becomes even more challenging to kind of go, okay, well, what should we keep? What should we not keep? You know, what things can we improve? It already sounds done, you know? But, you know, so trying to, it's almost easier to listen to just a very basic, you know, strip back demo and then be able to imagine where we can go. So, yeah, it's a fun trying to decode like what an artist or a songwriter's putting in

their demo is always a challenge, but a lot of fun. You know, it was cool to see the success of it. It was cool to see the success of it with people like Greg Kirsten, who you're close with. Obviously, Rachel's wife, you know, who you work with now. and to have like this moment of the top of the billboard chart producers being friends. Yeah. Like it's those moments where you're like, oh, this is a small community. And what a cool treat to be, you know, still, you know, you started your journey with your high school friends.

And then to, you know, be where you're at right now with your career friends is pretty remarkable. It's really remarkable. I mean, you know, great Kirsten is someone I met. I want to say I was like 18, 19 years old, super deep into jazz. Greg was, you know, was and is an incredible jazz pianist. And so we would do these gigs. And then, yeah, you know, we were, we were very close back then. And then, you know, for our journeys to take us to what we're doing now. And then to wind up with like the number one, you know, with him, you know, with Adel's easy on me as number one. And Bruno fighting, you know, neck and neck. And his wife, his wife,

Rachel is my manager and, yeah, we get together all the time. So it's really cool when it makes things, yeah, very small and very intimate when that happens and you can line up and like when those things line up and you can celebrate with buddies you've known for 20 years. Yeah, that's so crazy. I was going to ask real quick, I want to go to this next segment. I know we're running out of time, but, you know, working on, on, we work together on the wrongman which is now a show in new york and you've now worked on you know and in conto are there is there a part of you that

wants to ever work in like to do a full theater album would that ever be enticing oh a thousand percent um you know what one that's kind of an embarrassing thing but i actually met lyn lynne lmanuel miranda um he cold called me when he was getting ready to do a cast recording for in the Heights and I turned him down because I had a commitment to make the next M&M record with Drey and I was very still deep into making albums with Drey and you know I didn't know anything about Lynn he played me some demos and I thought man this sounds amazing would be a lot of fun but I just was like M&M or Lynn Manuel Miranda I think I've got to just keep going with M and then next thing you know it's like you know Tony's this and

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. And all this stuff starts happening. You know, but meanwhile, Lynn has, fortunately, he's kept me still as someone he'll reach out to from time to time. Yeah, obviously with the success of Encantho, I've gotten asked to be a part of more, you know, music for film related projects.

You know, definitely theater would be a dream, you know, to find, you know, whether it's a cast recording for somebody or maybe ultimately someday being a part of writing music would be incredible. I feel like, you know, and again, and that would be something that I would love to do because I feel like I would have so much

to learn from that process. But in the immediate future, you know, I'm working on a Netflix animated movie that stars Brittany Howard, you know, who's one of my favorite artists. And so Brittany plays the lead and sings a lot of the songs. so I'm producing music for this upcoming project on Netflix.

And, you know, so, yeah, now I'm just trying to, like, navigate that. I think a dream of mine would be to do something like T. Bone Burnett did for, Oh, Brother Where Art Thou, where he kind of curated the music and found the artist and picked the songs. And that, to me, would be an ultimate, like, bucket list to find a project where I could be utilized in that capacity and do the whole, do it all for. from top to bottom. All right, here's a five for five. We're going to go to this next segment. I'm going to name five things.

Let me know it comes off the top of your head. We're going to start with Dr. Dre. Consistency. Okay. We're going to go with Eminem. Driven. We're going to go with your father. A journeyman.

We're going to go next to your daughter. Just absolute pride. And my son, Cole. Oh, right, and your son. Yeah. Last, your wife, Trista. Oh, just foundation, rock. There's so many love.

She's everything. Thank you for doing this podcast. You know, this is, these are the conversations that this podcast was meant to be in a sense that when we work in person we talk a lot it's inspiring and yet i always want to know more about your journey and specifically yours because it's not just about music to you like you're such a warm spirit in the room that I mean, we've taken such interesting risks in the room and, you know, even have, you know, even had a release in the last year.

That's so, so, so unique because it's a safe place to explore. And you treat everyone with such love. And I just think it's important that people treat and understand who you are so they can treat you at that kind of respect. And I just, I know, like, you went, you know, for you to play on wrong man, you know, this is an album that has not that many streams but to me is is is is means so much and then to have you know to have somebody take time out of their schedule when they have so much going on to to bring that love into something that I care about I just know that all these artists you've

worked with that we've gone over and all the ones we didn't go over all feel the same way about you so um I just really appreciate you and you know I'm I'm excited to come visit what I imagine is a very clean studio in Nashville as you always keep everything in order and you know I have so many questions so much to talk about with you and I feel like this is just you know once again we'll just have to do another one of these after next year when you when Enkanto wins more Grammys and Oscars and you're going to be like what is happening man I mean oh my gosh like you're still working We got to keep doing this and we got to keep hanging out, man.

I just, I respect you so much. So thank you. Ross, this is just such a joy to get to do this with you. I think the world of you. And that's an honor. Like I told you, this was kind of like a, you inviting me was like a comic being invited by Johnny Carson onto the Tonight Show.

So it means a lot, brother. It means a lot. All right, homie. Well, have a good day. And thank you. We'll talk soon. Take care. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself.

See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.