And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 173: Shy Carter

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

Today’s guest is a bona fide hit-maker whose worked across all corners of the industry. Hailing from Memphis, Tennessee this songwriter got their start playing saxophone in church and with bands on Beale Street before being discovered by a talent manager. He soon signed a publishing deal and began his career as a successful songwriter and producer. With credits that span Kane Brown's "Heaven" to Charlie Puth's "One Call Away," this writer is one of the most formidable up-and-coming talents in Nashville and beyond. He is among the writers behind Billy Currington's "It Don't Hurt Like it Used To," Sugarland's smash hit "Stuck Like Glue" and Rob Thomas' single "Someday." In addition to his feature on Tim McGraw's "Way Down," he has collaborated with Keith Urban on both "Never Comin' Down" and "My Wave." Named to Variety's 2018 Hitmakers list, he has also worked with Jason Derulo, Meghan Trainor, Jamie Foxx, Jennifer Lopez, Nelly and more. His roots in gospel, jazz, R&B and soul developed into an early career in hip-hop, but his gift for storytelling and love of organic instrumentation led to a natural transition into country music. Now, with a transcendent style perfectly suited to the times, he's ready to stand on his own as a country artist. His debut radio single "Good Love" and subsequent EP The Rest Of US are fitting introductions to the man behind the music. And The Writer Is…Shy Carter! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was very. founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership

of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right.

It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. BMI is the champion of the creator, supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to navigate the industry, plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels

from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers, just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today. You can learn more at BMI.com. Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends, and repeat guests on the writer, is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters.

He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. they acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans. That's the kind of person Evan is in real life, and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work.

Because of him, we have Songwriter of the Year. Because of him, we have songwriter's attitude, the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful, sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's versatile artist and songwriter has crafted smashes in all of the genres from topping pop charts to crowning country radio to notable Latin and R&B because this guy has written with the Titans of the Industry. His gospel jazz and soul background give him the unique skill set to stand out in every genre,

which circuitously explains his next chapter as a country music star. His gift for storytelling is one thing, but his voice and melody is legendary. I've had the pleasure of knowing him for over a decade. In fact, my first date with my wife was a Sugar Land concert where we hung out with this guest backstage. So I know he's good luck, and the writer is Shy Carter.

That's right. right on my dog how you doing man so uh before we go into it um this is so weird um in 2012 like we're all in the apg land right it's like a lot of like like right around charlie pooth era whatever and i remember um i guess it was probably before that even but i remember this melody going around that Mike sent me and it goes like uh... na-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da- and it was a first one of those times where it was like

hey we're looking for lyrics on this melody and you were just freestyling and something you don't even remember this melody there's no fucking way you remember this melody. But it became something that I played so much in my house that my wife then put it on a playlist and we still listen to you mumbling this melody 10 years later and still no one, I guarantee no one ever wrote lyrics to it, guaranteed it never came out. But this one melody and I probably could find the demo of you singing is like, you know, everyone has, there's a smet, there are hit songs in the universe that people share their experiences, right? Like that's what the soundtrack of, you know, music is the soundtrack of life or whatever the

expression is. But that is part of our life and no one else, no one else has it. So I just want to say like, of all the songs you've written, that one, I mean, obviously the Sugar Land one ended up impacting us too, but like that one has like an impact on my personal life. That's crazy, bro. That's amazing. A song that's not even written.

It's just a melody. And that's why I wrote in the thing. Like, you know, obviously you do a lot of things as a writer, but I just remember hearing some of these demos of you singing and just being like, fuck, if I could sing like that, you know? It's so natural. But anyway, let's, I mean, look, so first of all, it's good to see you, I've known you now for a while.

You've gone through a million things in your life and so much to tell. So let's go to the beginning. You're, you know, you start off in a musical city, so tell me about your childhood. Yeah, can I say something about that melody real quick? Yeah.

I just went in there and made that and I planned on finishing that and then Mike just started sending it to everybody. That's right. Do you remember it? Do you know what I'm talking about? I remember the song because I was just kind of getting used to being over there with those guys. And I was upset because I was like, why you just send my stuff out there everybody?

And like, you didn't even ask me. I was just, I was going to finish it, man. Why? I was kind of upset with them because I used to go, I used to go head to head with them do's over there, man. But I, you know, I got cool with them out there a while. Well, it's a, you know, that, that world was something that I wish people could. replicate now. And I know there are a few places that do that. But what that world was like at the time was you'd have, you know, four studios all running all the time. Like there'd be a session from 12 to 7 and 7 to 4 or something like that. And you'd always have a room. And so you would, they packed it and they always packed it to credit to APG and Mike. Like they always packed it with writers who were on the cusp, not necessarily all the, the smash writers at the time,

but also it would sprinkle those people in. And I think that's how a lot of us met each other, you know, was by going to, like, you'd be in the studio and you'd get coffee and you'd be like, hey, I'm Ross. You'd say, hey, I'm shy. Like, that's what it was. And so you'd meet all these people and you'd find yourself in sessions that you wouldn't otherwise be in.

Or, you know, like... Yeah, for sure. For sure, man. Yeah. You ended up into some, you know, some really cool situations because of it. Yeah, no doubt, man. I like them dudes, man. It's all good.

But, yeah, there's definitely a Frankenstein approach to songwriting a little bit sometimes where it's just like, this is a seed of an idea. Let's get everyone to put their two cents in and see if there's a song out of it. Yeah, it was strange to me at first, man, but it still is a little bit, man, because I'm just so natural and organic with my whole everything, you know. But that's why I like, you know, that's why I'm down here and stuff.

But I'm sorry, I mean to cut you off with your whole look. No, I mean, like, I think it's all about our history is humans in this business. You know, like, we all are trying to find out what's the best way that we can be creative and make, like, our most honest music. And, you know, that's, so like all this stuff is important to go through

to know who we are you know but man big bro and like you know this going back to where I was heading like you you grew up in a town that didn't do that it wasn't a pop town you know so tell me tell me a little bit about

like your childhood yeah man I I grew up I grew up listening to like well first of I lived all over the place. Like I was born in Wisconsin, then I moved to Wyoming, then Arkansas, then Atlanta, then Memphis, then Michigan.

You know. Why? We were on the run, man. You know, we was doing some while. I was a bad little kid everywhere I went, man. I was just robbing stores. What were you really doing? No, my dad, he was working for the IRS.

So is the exact? exact opposite. It was literally like suit and ties showing up, showing up like crunching numbers to the point where it's like, you got to get out of here. Yeah. No, I mean, you know, he got started off like he was in the Marines. He went to the war. He got back and got like an entry level position. And, and then every time he got a new opportunity, he would just, you know, the job of being in a different area. So we would move. Do you have brothers and sisters? Yeah, I got four brothers. Oh, wow. So you guys, like, all five kids would go city to city to city? Three of us.

Three of us would. The other two were a little older, and they had different moms. Got it. When I think of creative households, I would put former military turn IRS dad into the least likely, like, parent for somebody who would be addicted to music. So, like, how was music introduced in the household? Yeah, well, I mean, crazy thing was he always was playing the guitar and singing. So, you know, before he ever even went out there, that's what he was doing. Is that what he wanted to do? Like, was that a dream of his?

I think so a little, I think so, you know, but I think back then it wasn't like a big, big reality or something, you know, to, it was like, that's good. He would be in the clubs. His dad would go find him in the clubs. He was too young, you know. But, you know, he had to make, he had to do something. He went to the war, to the, to the, to the war. He's like 17.

Wow. Yeah. So, you know, he just did what he had to do to take care of himself and a family. So I just, I just greatly appreciate it. But every time we went to any, any of our, like, grandma's house in Milwaukee or church or anywhere. They're like, you got your guitar, Luke, bring your guitar. You know, he has seen songs like Sarah Smiles, man, or like,

easy like Sunday morning, like these great, great songs, dog. And he loved Curtis Mayfield. So, like, I always was around because of that. How is his voice? It's beautiful. What is he? It's a lot different than mine. How is it different?

He sounds like Al J. row or something when he's saying. That's kind of awesome, though. That's like the knowledge, that's the kind of voice that you hear and you're like, oh, that guy's wisdom. Yeah. You know? Like if somebody hears me sing, they're not thinking, wow, that guy's wise.

You know, but you hear that. That's a cool vibe. Wait, so did you grow up listening to, that was the kind of music you grew up listening to is sort of the music that your dad would also play on guitar. Did you then naturally start doing that kind of music when you were little, or were you listening to music that was sort of popular for our age group? Man, I definitely had my own music. But see, so at first, we weren't really allowed to listen to too much.

We didn't have like BT, MTV. We didn't even have cable. And they would just give us like Christian music. So I remember I really love D.C. talk. You know what that is? Yeah, I used to love them like when they were rapping. Later they started doing like alternative music, but they were like rapping. And it was just like hip-hop.

I was like just Christian hip-hop stuff. So I would have like some other little groups like that and I would just learn the songs. I still remember this one like little rap. I guess I don't, but it was like, but I put my mind this was Blake, Blake with my friend. B.A.C. and I'm a son of a preacher eight years old, but I can still teach you,

reach you, because Jesus Christ is a feature to listen to the words that I say, I beseech you, because out of them, you know, stuff like that. And then I, they got like little videos

with me doing that. So that's what I first started like. And it was like, you know, it was rap music, but it was real safe, clean rap music, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then I,

like, when we moved to Memphis, I was like about, 10 or 11. And then I started hearing like everybody was listening to like eight ball and mjG and like the first the first underground stuff with three six mafia, you know, before they just tore the whole game up. Like that was Memphis was if that was our music, you know, before it was the world's music. And and that whole sound that whole sound at three six mafia was doing like I feel like that infiltrated like the whole pop music and everything. It's just crazy how. far that kind of sound went.

But I listened to that, but I also was really infatuated with like Boys to Men and All for One, I loved like them love songs, them R&B song. Boys to Men was huge, jagged edge, Usher. That was the type of stuff I listened to me. I was crazy about it. When did you start trying to write your own songs? I remember I wrote a song. My uncle gave me a keyboard when I was like 11.

and gave it to me for Christmas and it had like these little program beat these little stock beats on there so I would just write raps over the little beats and it would be so corny man you know. Yeah they'd have like all it would be like four versions of New Jack Swing it'd all be like

Dallas Austin ripoff kind of like fake beats those are so good oh man the beats the beats were terrible he just pushed like a button in it and it just playing in that key or something. That's when I first started writing them and then and then I started toying around with it because I had like a little R&B group.

And we were seeing like Casey and Jojo all my life or something. My dad would play the guitar for sometimes at the talent show or we were just singing an acapella. And that's when I started. Was that in high school or something or is that before that?

Yeah, yeah. like ninth grade. So where, when you said talent shows and stuff, is that literally like within school or are you guys traveling around and, and because I mean, I know your voice. My guess is at it. Even in ninth grade, people are like, holy shit, this guy's incredible. And, you know. No, no.

Go ahead. Not really. That's the beautiful thing about my story. What I like to tell people, man. It was like, I was like the least. I was the least out of the group, you know. Like the dudes that I was singing with could really sing. And my voice was just, I had to, I had to, you know, work this muscle out, you know.

So I did have some, you know, it's in my, it's in my blood. The music is, but I didn't know how to play. I know I first started playing saxophone was the first instrument I played. And my dad would take me to Beal Street. I got to play down there a couple times. Like, I would play little stuff in church. But like, so I could get down a little bit. but I saw so many people that have real crazy talent,

like natural talent, hitting the runs. And so in my group, I couldn't even, I couldn't sing a harmony note, and I couldn't even stay on my note in the middle, like the lead note without jumping on one of their harmony notes that they were singing sign. They'd be like, man, just hold your ears. I'll, like, plug my ear up and get it so I can sing

and stay on my note. So I just loved it, man. I just got better and better, but we did good at the talent show at the school and we ended up being able to go to the Mid-South Fair and sing so we got to go sing that as a couple places like that. At that point, I mean, if you're already playing music like that

and your dad is literally accompanying you, which is, by the way, amazing to have that kind of relationship. You know, are you then, was there ever a doubt that you were going to do music? Like, were you thinking, oh, you know, this is a fun hobby. There's like a sport. This is like an activity. But I'm going to go to work for the IRS.

And, you know. No, I definitely didn't want to go work for anything like that. I played a lot of sports and I love sports. And I loved music. I would just be in my room and just pretend like I was on stage and stuff. singing them boys to me and songs. I was just playing. So I really did love it.

And I was like, man, I either want to be able to play sports or I want to do music. And I just kind of realized I was like, I think I have a better chance to do music. And I also figured really young, I kind of figured like, you know, there's only certain amount of spots on these teams. you know, on if you want to play major league sports, and you got to be so incredible.

And I was like, music, man, it's like, nobody can say, you can't just go off stats and say this person's incredible. Like, somebody can, you could think somebody's terrible and they can make a living off of music, you know, so I figured if I just really worked hard at it and poured everything into it, you know, that I could, I would have a better chance at that. What's the process from that group that you were in from there, until, you know, they... Like, at that point, like you said,

you're in, like, ninth grade or something like that. But, you know, your career starts, like, professionally, like seven years later. So, like, what happens between freshman year of high school where you're playing, you know, a state fair here or there to, like, I'm a professional human, in the music business. Yeah, I think the guys in the group, they weren't really that serious about it.

It was fun. It was fun for them. And they were great, man. It was just harmonies and everything. It was great. But I just really, you know, stayed on it. And I got a job at Sears. I was like 16.

I was a junior. I think I was a junior then. I got a job at Sears. And this guy was selling beats. His name's Chris. He lives here in Nashville. Now, this was, you know, this was over there in Memphis.

and he gave me his car. I think he was working there too. He was selling beats. So I went over to his house. And that's where I wrote my first song and recorded my first song because he had a triton and he was making his tracks.

And I don't even... Yeah, yeah, he was making the tracks and no computer and nothing we recorded like on a... I think I had a tape, man. It was like you gave it to me on a tape. And... Damn, man.

just couldn't believe it. I was like, damn, that's my voice on there. Like, I just, I just loved it so much, man. So I just sat there and wrote the song and recorded it. And I was like, man, I got to figure out how to do this, you know. And then right after I did that, like, we had to move again. And we moved to Michigan. We moved to this little bitty town, bro. So that's where all this country, this country lifestyle stuff kind of pops in. Like, we moved to this little country town called Cedar Springs. Like, it was North the Grand Rapids in Michigan. And it was cold.

And it was like, it was kind of miserable for me because I'm just, it was just getting ready to be a senior in high school. And it's like Memphis was so many, it was a lot more culture. It was a lot more black culture there. I moved to this place. It was completely white.

And then they would be talking crazy to us. Like me and my little brother, we had, it just couldn't believe the mindset of these people, man. And so I didn't want to hang out or nothing, man. I was getting in fights with them and stuff. So my mom helped me get a keyboard, like a better keyboard that I could start making tracks.

So I just made tracks and made tracks. I didn't even know about quantized or nothing. Like I showed something to my friend, Chris, he was like, you don't know about quantized? Like, what's that? Like, yeah, man, so this way, you know, your beats could be, you know, better. And I just made a bunch and then I found a studio there.

I ended up hooking up with a record label there, like my senior year of high school. There was a record label, independent, all these rappers, all these rappers, man. He had like 15 rappers in that grand rappers area. And they would go out to this studio. And I got so cool with the guy, Andy at the studio, he started teaching me how to run it. Like, he would just go leave for a minute and just be like, just push record for the other rappers, you know. And so I just push record, whatever. Then I started learning the Pro Tools and to the point where then I started giving me an MPC and a Yamaha motif and I'm starting making my own tracks and I'm making tracks for the rapper dudes.

And then eventually I learned how to work the studio. So he would just let me go in there all night. You know, I would go in there whenever he's done and the son will be coming up. And it was $40 an hour or something for the studio. but I would just run some sessions for him and then he just let me get it all night and I leave and the sun will be up but I have me a whole song

I worked on and got a little mix and Pro 2's HD systems no latency, got the all the plug-ins and stuff that shit was nice man Hey guys there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago

they provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. If you're interested in finding

out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right. It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Hey guys. I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends, and repeat guests on the writer, is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter, of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that

kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans. That's the kind of person Evan is in real life and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker.

So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work Because of him, we have Songwriter of the year. Because of him, we have songwriter's added to the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now.

BMI is the champion of the creator, supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to navigate the industry plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers, just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today. You can learn more at bMI.com. Yeah, man. And how did you then get, like when you finish those records how are you showing people

or is it like because this is like a CD era so you're burning a CD or something like that and then you're just like handing them out to people were you playing shows like what's even if you're making music in that room that's amazing but what was the point right for sure man I went out and did some shows

with that with that click you know that label and I just realized like the shows ain't fun man when you just got a track and the sound is bad. And it's like, I feel like, I was like, this made me look worse to do a show than if I don't do the show, you know. So I focus way more on just creating and trying to get it to somebody, you know, like some kind of record label person or something.

And, you know, I remember I went to go meet with Alicia Keys managers. I got this weird dude that hooked me up with them. And I dealt with a lot of shady characters, man. So this dude was crazy. went up there. But another guy said he knew somebody at the radio in my city. It was a clear channel of top 40 radio station, which they don't play no local music, you know.

But they just started cramming this song that I made. And when I came back from New York meeting with them, like it was all over the radio on that station. And this was like beginning of my space and stuff. I didn't know how to, I didn't. I wasn't up on that stuff, man. Like I thought it was where. I'm like, man,

y'all talking to people on the internet. Y'all got friends on the internet, man. I'm like, what's going on? That's the same thing right now when people are, like, everybody's listening to this who's younger. It's like, you know, they talk to labels and they're like, you know, build your following up on TikTok. And it's like, man, that's the same thing

as when we were going through MySpace and everyone's like, oh, just start friending people. Spend all night. Literally, that was the activity was you should friend. The friend was a verb. go friend people on MySpace. And it was just like this is this is the like a musician's

worst nightmare is clicking on like will you be my friend? Will you be my friend? Yeah, for real. Like that's what labels wanted. And then meanwhile you have songs at radio where you know, I'm sure that that like playing a show no matter how

shitty the sound is if the song's getting played on radio people are starting to sing along. They don't even care about how good it is. You start realizing, oh, yeah, this is like, this is reaching people. So when did you realize people were listening to it? Man, I would like be going in the mall and I'd be like, man, you heard that song go like this. I would like say the title, they might not know it. Then I start singing it. And they'll be like, that's you. I'm like, yeah. They'd be like, I thought that was like a five-person group or something because I had my vocals coming all in and doing all this.

And nobody knew it was me. What song was that? It was called I Got Soul But it never It never How does it go? It never was really out Like that Can you still sing it?

Yeah but I sample James Brown That was part of the issue That I never really Because I sent it was like Your beauty is an evolution You really got a hold of me If they ask you how you break it down like that Say I got soul

And I'm super bad Yeah Man who is that? Over here she can Perry, Frans. And the type of self how to belly dance. And I was just snapping on that mug. You know, it was a beating.

Aida Waste was beating. It was mixed. It was mixed cool. It was my little rough mix, and they was just cramming it on the radio. For sure, there's somebody listening to this as like, oh, my God, I remember that record. You know? Yeah.

Those people in Grand Rapids, man, they knew that mug, for real. And I remember I'm in love with a stripper was out. And that was the number one song on the radio. Mine was number two. God, so crazy. On the pop station. So at that point, are you like, you're not necessarily in Grand Rapids in that path. I mean, I know you're meeting with some managers, but I guess, like, there's a difference

between making music and having it out and also, like, getting involved in the business. And like you were saying, there were a bunch of shady characters along the way. Well, how do you, like, start navigating, you know, if I found some artists in a town who has the second, you know, a number two record on a top 40 radio station, like, every label I know is hunting, you know, that record deal. Like, how did your life change with that? Yeah, man, it didn't really change. It didn't really change. It didn't really change that much, man. And like I had a couple, I had a couple people that I got kind of got in touch with.

I still was involved with somebody that was, that was whack, man. And what I did was just, I just put my own album out. And, and I just sold some in the city. And I did good with that. And then the couple, the couple, like, people that reached out to me, some of it was kind of blocked on some, on the shady stuff. but the other was like I was sending music and I think they didn't like that was kind of like a record

that was a song I made kind of like for this investor guy somebody was just talked about it and was like it was a little bit outside of what I did the rest of it was more like just R&B and I was talking about God a lot of my music and I was rapping and at that point you ain't gonna believe it man I was rapping so much and singing so much

that labels would tell me you can't rap and sing they'll be like we don't know how to market that you got to choose one. It was like nobody was doing that. But Lauren Hill had done it. And Missy Elliott had that, you know, I knew people had, but it was none of this, Drake and all this type of stuff. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. So, you know, the labels, I always felt that energy from there. You know, that's that same old energy of just them trying to put something in a box and make it like commercial what they seen before or something. So what happened was, and at this point, I don't went through college. I don't went through like four years of college now. Like, so I didn't, I've been in the studio the whole time using all my college loan money

and go to the studio, studio. So I'm just getting better and better. And eventually I went out to L.A. to meet with some cats. And they were trying to sign me, but they introduced me to this guy, Courtney B. And he was managing Nelly. I'm getting pages out in New Jersey from Courtney B. Talking about a party up in NYC. Remember that?

That's crazy. Yeah. So I'm like, damn, you caught any beat from the song. He's like, yeah, you know, he called Nelly right there, got his voicemail. He had this cool little beatboxing on his voicemail or something, you know. And I love Nelly. Like, I was a big Nelly fan too. And so he, another, I couldn't even work with him because I didn't want to work with the guys that brought me to him.

So out of respect, I didn't, you know, I was just like, man, I'm working with them. So it's nice to meet you. you know, went back home. And like a year later, the same guy that introduced me to him called me. He said, hey, can you get a hold of Courtney B? I was like, that's your friend. And so I said, all right, and I just Googled him. And I found a number in Century City.

I called it, left a message. He called me back. I said, hey, man, you know, dude is trying to get in touch with you. But since we on the phone, what's up? You know? He's like, man, I've been trying to get a hold of you for a year, man. Like, I love your music. I want to work with you,

but nobody would give me the contact. He was like, whatever you want to do, let's do it. Man, he set me up a meeting with Clive Davis, bro. I was over there with the shiny suit. Shiny suit, man, da, sitting in front of him like about two weeks later, bro. What was that like? Man, that was crazy. So I played him that song that I had on the radio.

And I played him a couple other songs. And I remember he had Larry Jackson. action next to him, man. This was his black dude, you know what I'm saying? Tell me if this black music is cool, you know? Yeah, that guy's amazing, yeah. Yeah, but, you know, he's just sitting there. He ain't making no, he ain't making no face or nothing, just, you know, doing how they do, man. And so the music plays, you know, Larry don't say nothing. And when the, when the music was done, Clive said, I remember what he said, man, he said, we rate songs from one to, uh, A eight.

He said one through eight with eight being a hit. He said a nine is a top five and the ten is the number one song. So an eight is a hit. He said, you got some strong seven, seven point five. He said, come back when you got some eights and some nines. Damn. It's those weird things where you're like, I'm not sure. I remember going to, this is your story.

not mine, but I just had like this string of songs that were hits, and I just remember this publisher coming up to me who gave me the same kind of advice. And in my head, I look at that person, I'm like, I'm going to prove you wrong.

Yeah. That person came up to me at this event and he was like, I hope I didn't offend you back in the day. And I was like, I didn't know how to respond to it, because like it's this weird thing.

Like when someone says that to you, you're like pretty offended. And then he listened back and you're like, yeah, maybe those are seven and a halfs. Like was he right were those seven and a halfs or like listening back now, do you, are you like, was that good advice or was that somebody where you feel like you need to, you know, you've always wanted to prove Clive Davis wrong? Man, the songs have definitely gotten a lot better since then, you know. Like, I learned a lot about what makes a song like a global thing or, like, more for everybody, you know. So, but I also kind of lost, I also kind of feel like I lost a little bit of my originality by doing that, you know.

So it's kind of like a give and take, but, but, uh, nah, it was cool. It was cool. I felt so encouraged by it. I was like, damn, well, if he thinks I'm that close to having a hit and it's Clive Davis, man, there ain't no problem. I just keep on working at this. I've definitely going to have. If Clyde Davis just told me I'm 7.5 and 8 is a hit,

I'm coming with some eights and nines and tens very soon, buddy. Yeah, for real. So you end up doing a publishing deal, though, pretty quick after that. So it seems like your relationship with Courtney B does, like opens doors. Sure, man. So he took me there. I remember he took me to Jive. Peter Thiel was over there.

Barry Weiss was over there. He took me to Universal. And they were like, Jive was super close on signing me. Like they really wanted to sign me. They were like, what you like to listen to? I was like, I like, I like, Indi-I-R-E. They're like, oh, that artsy-fartsy stuff.

I'm like, damn, what's up with these record label people, man? They're so weak. Like, that's Grammy-winning Indi-I-R-E. Like, yeah. Yeah, I was like, man, these people are. They're like, how do you see your video? Do you dance? No, I don't dance.

I do like this. They like, you know, it was just, you know, it was close. It was close, but I'm glad they didn't sign me. Because after that, he was like, all right, I'm going to take you to Nelly. So he'd start playing my music for Nelly. Nellie loved it.

He said he wanted to sign me. So I signed with him as a producer. Because Nellie said, hey, I already got artists. I'm an artist. I got other artists that I'm trying to get all. And, you know, I don't want to just sign you and not be able to do nothing with you. So you make great.

You make great hooks, do the hooks, you know, and make the tracks. So that's what I did. And I started making songs with him, Ashanti, you know, he was doing a lot of stuff for her at the time, like Chingy, all of them dudes, man, from Murphy Lee, St. Lunatics, like, you know, other rappers, like the Youngblood, Sean Paul, like, a bunch of rappers, man. And, you know, a few R&B singers and stuff will come through and want some tracks. But then songs will just kind of come out like kind of get leaked on YouTube or whatever.

Like I wasn't really making some real money. So Courtney was like, you know, you could really write songs. Let's take you over here to meet this guy, Matt Silletic. I know him. He was running Virgin, but he got his own company. He produced all this Matchbox 20 and all kinds of other. It made huge record. So took me over there and I did like an audition for him.

I had him like rent me an MPC. I came out there for one day and it flew me back the same day. And I think I met with him first. And then the next day they flew me out there. Next time he said he had this little piano riff. He played it. He left. I made a little beat on the MPC.

I put some melodies down. And kind of like that first day you talked about it wasn't finished. You know, just put the melodies in a groove down. And he came in and was like, man, this is so much different. like then what I would have done, I like this. And he was like, cool. So that was kind of like my audition with them and they signed me.

And it was a rough deal, bro. I got out that deal like just now. I got out that deal like 14 years later, bro. But, you know, it was worth it. Because like maybe like five, six months later, I was here in Nashville. And I was at Daniel Tash in his house, man. We was over there messing around.

And they called me. He's like, man, that song you made is about to be Rob Thomas next single. And they said, it's going to go number one. Before it even came out, it's going to go number one. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, man, you're not hard. I've been trying to, you know, go everywhere and try everything to try to figure out how I could do this. And sure enough, that sucker came out.

It was number one on how they see. And then I was like, I'm in the game. I mean, it's so weird because, again, like, you have such a, unique trajectory working on so many different kinds of music that there's no way that you can tell younger you that your first hit is going to be with Rob Thomas and you'd believe it. And then the next like four hits you're like you'll for sure not believe it. If you don't, if you don't believe Rob Thomas and you'll never believe what happens next. You know? Like this is so weird because you're talking about you move to

this nowhere town in north of Grand Rapids and people are in a really it's like a really white town and you know you're signed to a label

with 15 rappers and then you end up with Rob Thomas you go to Nashville and like you are able to use all these influences and it's just somehow

really clicks like were you you know, I always say that, you know, my, my forte is that I just walk through doors. Like, if they're open, I walk through them and see what's on the other side. Yeah. And you did that. Like, somebody says, hey, why don't you go right with, you go right over here and do that? Yeah, I mean, why not?

Let's go. Let's see what happens. But you were never like, no, I don't do that. No, I don't do that. That's not my kind of music or that's not my kind of artist. You just keep going in with an open mind. What was it like to transition from? You have this Rob Thomas hit.

The next hit, I know, like, you know, you meet Kevin Griffin, who you do, you know, stuck like glue with. And I believe Casey Robinson, shout out Casey, introduce you guys. But, you know, the, how does it? happen. How does this guy who's working with Nelly and Ashanti and all these other people, how does that person end up in Nashville

after Rob Thomas hit working on Sugar Land? Yeah, bro. Well, you know, I moved, so I was in Atlanta. I was living in Atlanta when the Rob Thomas song came out. And my

girl at the time was living in Nashville. So I would be coming in Nashville to see. her. I met her in Michigan. Her family moved to Nashville. So that's what started all that. I started coming in Nashville. And I was used to country music being like, oh, Acreakry, breaky heart type music, right? Then I remember the song I heard. It's the Zach Brown band. It's called Whatever it is. It's like, whatever it is, it blows me away. At the end, he said, every time I try to tell her how I feel it comes out, I love you. She got whatever it is. It's just a beautiful song. You know, I mean, the guitar.

Tars is beautiful. It's like, it's everything that that I would have heard in a, in a old. And a boys to men song. Yeah. Yeah. It was the same. And then I started realizing that when I was loving boys to men, I swear, I mean, all for one, I swear. That was a big country here at the same time, you know.

And I could love you like that. I can make you my world. Heaven and Earth. If you were my girl. Same thing. Country song. It was an R&B song to me I was listening to. And then the country dude is doing it.

So I'm like, all right, I got to try to write some of this music. You know, like this is a whole lane that people, you know, there was nobody like me at all, like anywhere around Nashville. And I was like, I got to figure this out. So it's funny because I was doing that and going back and forth. But, you know, when the Rob Thomas thing came out, they said, hey, man, we can get you more opportunities out here in L.A. So that's why I came to L.A. I met Casey. And Casey is the man. He's so cool, man.

And shoot, that's how I know Joe too, you know. And shout out Joe London, young player. And he was like, man, I want to hook you up with this dude Kevin Griffin. So I was like, cool. So I went over with Kevin's. We made one song. It was cool. And so I let's hook up again. So the second time we hooked up, you know, I ain't really never told.

I ain't really told nobody really this. I'm going to tell you because, you know what I'm saying? You can use my dog right here, man, keep it real. But like, we was trying to write like a pop song that day. It was like for a pop artist, you know. And the thing is my MPC broke. And I used to go around just big old MPC, man, you know. And I just liked it.

I was like, I was like, this is what I like, man. It's got the feel, you know. And so I had knocked it over before. and we started beating on stuff like we used to do in a session before that. So I was like, well, my MPC's broke, but he started pulling up some drums in the computer. And I said, man, I don't like that.

I don't like the feel. I said, just give me a guitar. So I got a guitar just just start layering tracks. And they just put my little thing on there. So I could feel like this just so I could write the song, you know? And so then we wrote the song. I'm in the booth just really just trying to do some pop stuff. There you go.

making my know, I was just singing melodies and Kevin's just putting simple lyrics in the computer, you know, there you go, making my heartbeat. No one knows me better. So I'm just trying to, you know,

I'm learning all this about just so simple, you know, lyrics and I'm like stuck on you. I told him, I think that's a little corny? I think it might just be corny enough. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And then we got it like, we got it like, you know, we got the structure, we got a lot of it done.

And he was like, man, this would be great for Sugar Land. And I was like, Sugar Land. Like, you know who that is? You can get that to Sugar Land. He was like, yeah, because he was in the band better than Ezra. His drummer from that band was playing for Sugar Land now. And he was like, man, they need a single. And they want to write on it too so we could just send it to them

and let them write the bridge. And so I was like, sure, man. And I was like, I've really been trying to get into country music. So he sent it to him. loved it and that's your boom boom boom we came out pretty fast they finished it you know i didn't hear it until it was out that same day it came out you know i learned that's how this is how this stuff is going too but uh man it was it really tore through the it really tore through the radio man and it was like something they hadn't heard before yeah i think that's what that's obviously what makes

you know your skill sets of valuable there you know shot up to Jennifer and Christian too. They're great people. You know, the fact that they're like, all the songs that I've had cut in Nashville were written in Los Angeles. And I've been in Nashville a lot. But when it comes down to it, it's like,

it's like if you do what you do in that world, you're better off than trying to write their song. They've got plenty of people in Nashville who can write a country song. They do not need Ross or shy to show up and be like, hey, let me show you to write a country song. They just want you to do shy.

And then they're like, oh, like, they'll cut that record because it's exciting and it's different and it's not what they would write, you know? That's exactly what it is, bro. I always have just tried to go somewhere where I'm going to be different. And it's going to be exciting for the people and just fill a hole that's not being filled, you know. Well, you end up in this, like, you know, you have the Sugar Land stuff. But then there's like a few years there where there's, you know,

of not a lot coming out. And then now, then a lot, you know, kind of ebbs and flows. What happens between, you know, you have this huge song in a country, you're doing some of these writings here. Obviously, living in half in Atlanta and Nashville and, well, some percentage in Atlanta and Nashville all over the place. And then you get a bunch of these songs like Billy Currington, some of that, you know, do really well.

But it's like this, there's like this space between, you know, I always want to know what happens in between the hits. Yeah. What happened between, like, what's happening those three years? Yeah, man. So I moved to L.A. and I had really, I had really been pretty sick, man, my whole life. Like, I, you know, I always was dealing with my stomach was messed up. Then the rest of my body was getting jacked up.

And I was like, whenever I get some money, man, I'm going to feel better. I know once I get some money, I'm going to feel better. And it wasn't really true, but I tried. You know? And when I started getting a little bit, a little bit, I thought it was going to make way more money. And I didn't. And so I'm just going getting massages, doing everything I can,

like trying to figure out, like going to different, like holistic doctors, trying to figure out what's going on, why I'm feeling like this. But then also, I spent a time on that. And also, since I was being noticed more because I had some little songs out, I was getting to more like record label executives, and then I was walking around my little mandolin

and just singing them songs and they're like, holy crap, so then they all try to start signing me. But I was like, man, you know, I was real funny with them and asking for astronomical stuff because I was like, I always been this guy

and y'all didn't want to sign me before. So now you want to sign me and everything that I've ever wanted to do, y'all tell me I can't do it and then I watched some other artists come out and do it. So I was like, I don't trust y'all. I don't like y'all. get away from me.

You know what I'm saying? I was like just away from the whole thing. And but I entertained a lot of record deals. And I ended up almost signing with L.A. Reed because he came over there to Epic. And I spent like eight months negotiating a deal with him, man. And then like the lawyer over there, he got upset because they found out I had two lawyers that was, because I was doing, I was doing a lot, you know. And we were all.

almost done with the deal and they like, they got mad and they said, if you don't sign it right now, like, we're going to pull the deal. I was like, I'm not signing it right now to feel it's ready. And so that happened. And then I started a group. Well, the reason I started a group was I have my friends come out with me, have my friends come out to L.A. I'm in L.A. Y'all come out here to try to make some happen. So they asked me to go do a session with SoulShok. I didn't want to do it. I said, I said, if I could bring my friend, I do it. So I, all right, cool, because I'm trying to help him get some stuff going. So we went. We made. We made. just flies on his track. He's like, y'all, I know LA read that out. I'm like,

L.A. Read already, no, I'm not doing no deal. But he kept pushing the issue. I said, check this out. Me and my friend will be a group. Y'all can sign the group and not me. So that way, I could do a record deal, but I don't have to feel like I'm, I'm about to be out of luck if y'all got handcuffs on me. My name is completely out of it. They said it couldn't be done, da-da-da, but I said, if I hear from the lawyer, that same lawyer, then I do it. So I did that. I was getting ready to do it. And then Neil Jacobson called me.

You know, Neil, he was over there at Interscope with Jimmy. And the thing is, he had already taken me to Jimmy. And Jimmy offered me a deal, too. And I turned it down with Interscope because I didn't want to, I just didn't want to do it. You know, I just didn't want to do it because I didn't feel like they were. And Larry Jackson was there. He was there with Jimmy. And I was like, you don't remember me, dog?

He was ready to work. He's like, let's get it in, man. And they was like, you want to hook up with a producer, like Rodney Jerkers or something? I was like, no, somebody like David Foster or something. It's like, y'all I understand what I'm really trying to do. And they're like, damn, you know. But it was real funny. I tell you something funny, man, that Neil was like, they said make him an offer.

So he said, I said, why he wanted me to make him an offer? Man, you want a Lamborghini? You want a helicopter, man. just say what you know what it? So he was kind of like saying wild stuff like that. And I don't know why he said that. So I was irritated at that. So I told the lawyer put a helicopter in the contract.

Because I was like, man, don't be playing with me like that. So I did that. Me and Jimmy had a good laugh. He came back with like $75,000. I was like, don't worry about it. I'm cool. I don't want to do it. That was fun.

And so then I end up going to L.A., you know, on that deal. Almost did it. Then I didn't start the group. So now I'm getting ready to do the group deal with L. LA. LA Reeves, like, put a girl in the group. So I went and got my home girl, got in the group, Robert. And so then all of a sudden out of nowhere, Neil calls me. You about to do a deal? I'm like, well, yeah, but this is the situation. I'm not signing myself. Well, I want to meet with y'all. So I met with him, played him the song. He liked the other song that we had better than the one I did with Social. I'm like, cool, because that's the one I produced with my friends. So he had us at Jimmy House like the next day. Like, I had. I had to go meet with Tricky and them on behalf of LA. They wanted to close the deal that day. I was like, look, man, I hate to tell you,

we're going to Jimmy House right after this. They was all mad. We the ones who, da-da-da. I was like, y'all, I wouldn't even have told nobody I was doing the deal. Somehow y'all opened your mouth up and told somebody y'all was about to sign us. Then they called me.

So that's on you, man. You got the next time keep your mouth closed. And, you know, it just won't happen. We can do the deal. So I went over there. Jimmy was like, you know, they was trying to put, The thing was the track with SoulShod was like a dance type of thing.

Ours was a little bit more like funky, like, you know, a song called Bring It Back. It's the song I got out now. And this was way before a lot of stuff was sounding like that too. And so anyway, Jimmy was like, Jimmy and Neil were like, we got all these dance tracks. Like they had a way better handle on that. And they were like, we can help you.

We'll get you a big old mansion. Y'all sit up in there and make all these songs. and then we'll put all these dance tracks to it. And there was when dance music was popping like crazy too and Black IPs were doing anything. And so we signed a group. It's called Cadillacs and Space. Spent a long time negotiating that deal

because it was hard because I had to negotiate the deal and still keep myself out of the deal. And I was able to do it, but it was really hard and frustrating. Then we got in the house and we made all these songs and we made all these pop songs. and he wasn't really making no putting the dance tracks to it.

I still was feeling a little weird. I'm smoking a lot of my good herb, trying to make my body feel good, but I'm still just not, I'm still trying to get healthy, and it's just not working. I'm having way too much stress and stuff like that. And, you know, I felt like I wasn't really making the best music

that I wanted to make, but it was so creative and fly, bro. It was amazing. So by the time we got done, like he took me to the urban department. And I felt like that was not, I felt like that was whack, you know what I'm saying? Because he asked us to make all this pop music. It was dance music. And then because we was all black, now we at the urban department.

And it was like, God bless the brother. I'm sure he killing the game. Now it was like Jimmy's nephew running it. And I was like, it's not even a black dude running the urban department. And y'all just bringing us in here. And I was like, I don't like this. I want to get off the label, man. You know what I'm saying?

And I was like, I'd have spent all this time. nobody want me to work with other artists and do this and that. And that's why I wasn't having no hits with everybody else because I was focused on this thing the whole time. Then Jimmy ended up going to Apple anyway. John Janet came over there. I called him. I said, can I just get off of this thing?

It's just frustrating to me. And so I just got off of there and just kept pushing. It's weird. In sports, you don't negotiate your deal during the season in sports. Like your contract is your contract, you only negotiate your contract in the off season. That's the deal. You show up to, once you show up, you don't talk about your contract or you abstain from showing up to the beginning.

But whatever, once your contract's done, you play through the season, then you negotiate, renegotiate, get out of your deals, whatever it is. Maybe the most frustrating thing in the music industry is that there is no season. And because of what we do, there are so much. many different contracts going all the time that it's often creatively paralyzing. And like if you're constantly negotiating this contract, then that contract, then this one, like, of course there are going to be issues. Because it's really emotionally draining no matter how much you try to separate it

when you're negotiating a contract. That's so true, bro. I've really had to realize that with all of the pain and stuff I've had in my body, after after having to go through being, having a relationship and actually getting divorced and all that, and that's when I started really going deep down and stop smoking and get real, like, clear and start doing therapy to start realizing all that stuff, even from from childhood and building up, building up through all this music industry. Like, that's what has been just, like, you know,

tearing my body up, man. It's your mind connected with your body. So I'm doing a lot better with all that. Now, just trying to keep that stuff, keep that stuff away from me. Because I was doing it all at that point, I didn't have no manager no more. I was just doing it, doing it on my own, because I just, you know, I didn't feel like they understood, like I understood what I wanted to do. Can you explain a little more on like the health stuff? One, how are you feeling now? And you know, were there ever diagnoses that were helpful? Were there treatments that were helpful? How are you feeling?

Yeah, man. I feel a lot better. I feel a lot better. And, you know, I wasn't really exercising a lot because it would be like I was so into sports, but it got to the point where I sat in front of that computer so long trying to make these songs and my back was hurting. And when I started trying to run and my stomach hurting, I'm like, I'm throwing up if I'm trying to play the sports and stuff.

So I'm like, man, I'm not. So instead I just smoke my weed and I started stretching. Like my girl, she had got me in this yoga study at UCLA. And then they did some yoga. And it was real simple movement. But I felt some of the pressure relief release off of my stomach. So I was like, okay, like this, you know, I knew I was always. tight like that. And I'm still tight and I'm still trying to

trying to loosen that up. But I noticed when I smoked my weed and I did some stretching type stuff, it was amazing. So I just did that so much. I did that so much and it helped me, but it wasn't until

I was able to do that without the weed and by actually talking. It's crazy because I was never trying to be about therapy. Me and my brothers, we're like, man, we got our brothers. We're not going to talk to no. I'm not going to waste my money. I didn't have money to be wasting like that anyway.

But I started really, I'm doing like somatic therapy, which is based on the body and the trauma that, even generational trauma that could be in there, so much stuff like that. So that's the type of stuff that help, man, just exercising, doing yoga type stuff, you know, and keeping my mind clear, meditating. Yeah, and getting down to the real issues

instead of putting a Band-Aid on it, And it's hard to actually go through it, but it's feel way better when you start to understand what's really going on. One of the other questions I have is, you know, when, and this is one, I'm happy you're feeling better. And I know like this, health is a journey. And somebody said to me the other day, it's like, you know, when you're healthy, you want all these things. You want money. You want success. You want a car.

You want a house. You want material things. You want all kinds of things. When you're sick, you want one thing. you know and so you know i applaud you for for going through that journey i know that that's that's a heavy burden that you're you're dealt what you're dealt you're not necessarily you don't choose to be sick so i you know i applaud you for getting through that um and it's you know one of the other things you said that i think is you know what was hindering some of your pop

stuff is that even after you do a deal that they still the introduction is to put you with like oh we'll bring them to the urban department you know and whenever we've

talked to you know my you know people on the podcast that are black but pop writers and not

you know R&B writers is that they they keep getting put into sessions that they're like this isn't really what I do

you know in your case it's kind of of unique because you really do everything. So like you could put you in every room. But you as an artist is pretty specific. Like you're saying, no, I want David Foster. Yeah.

You know, and then, you know, he, I don't want to skip too far ahead, but like you end up with obviously like one call away becomes really big. You know, you do a bunch of these songs with, you know, you have, you have a lot of the pop stuff that's, uh, multiracial. you're writing for men for women you know it doesn't really seem to you know that never really affects you but my question is like of all the places that i would think would pigeonhold someone Nashville seems to be a place that's really accepted more who you are is that the wrong

take or is it a place that seems to be encouraging for your career Yeah, man, it's it's kind of confusing to me, honestly, man. I can't, I can't, there's so much about this, I'll tell you about the songwriting community here, really accepted me a lot, you know. They were all, they were always inviting, happy to see me come. And I really didn't have, I really didn't have too many, too many, too. many issues with that. Because I was putting flavors

on songs for these white American country artists that when they get the flavors on there, that's what make them sound cool or they like it, you know?

But if I do it or if a black person does it and puts those same flavors, then you're going to say that it's country music. But it's the same thing that I'm doing for them every time. That's the whole formula. The whole formula is take what you've been doing and add this sauce to it because you want the sauce. And that's what, you know, because every, when all this George Floyd stuff happened, God bless me and everything, like I started getting all these interviews about what's it like being in Nashville, being black country music, all my guys, this and that. And I told him,

look, man, it's America. I dealt with the same stuff in L.A. You know? It's always the same thing. It's we want that, we want your flavor, but we don't want the whole thing. You know, if you give us the whole thing, you got to take you to the urban department. But this white artist that you give those same flavors to, we're not taking to the urban department. We don't have to start the record over there. This is a pop song, you know. And so now all of our music is becoming pop music because, you know, these people are deeming it popular and they're able to do it.

So then it's like it really has bothered me my whole life to see the destruction in the urban community and how bad the ghettos still are and how all of that. And that's where the creative juices are coming from. That's where all this greatness is being birthed out of is the struggle. And then when you bring it to him, it's like, oh, just give me that and let me just water it down and go, that's cool. And it always becomes this little trend. Now it here, now it's the twerk trim. I was like, well, we've been twerking talking about this for so long. Now it's to, now it's to talking like this, trend.

Like, we've been talking like that for so long. We've been using this word for so long. Now we've got to come up with a new word. Because now, you know, and so that's just a constant struggle. That's just a constant struggle. I do feel pigeonhole here in Nashville to be everything I want to be because, but that's just been in all genre. I just wish genres would just go away and everybody could just, you know,

make whatever they want. Like for me as an artist, it's always been kind of a, kind of an issue. As far as a writer, I can just kind of like fit in where I get in. It's like I'm trying to get some money, man.

I'm trying to support my family. Me as an artist is a little bit more difficult because I try to fit it in for them a little bit, but it's like it's a slippery slope, you know? Yeah, I think the issue with, the perk of streaming is that there really aren't genres It's like there used to be the tough part of

country music is that the genre really matters. You know? Is that they really like the radio, the people control radio, you know, they want country music. I mean, one of the, like, you know,

after George Floyd, I'm, in every, in every industry, people had at least talked about, I talked about some things that were really difficult to talk about and some truths needed to come out. And, like, you know, it's nice to see that, like, we only listen to country radio in our car. It's all we listen to.

You know, my wife loves country. That's what we listen to. You know, it's like, it's the 105.1 thing. That's what we listen to. And it's like, there are black artists on country. radio right now. Yeah. Maybe for the first time in our lives.

I mean, like, yeah, you have, like, you know, the Charlie Prides and, like, you know, legends and, you know, Darius Rucker and some of these people along the way. And obviously, like, you worked with Kane Brown on your, you know, as a writer. But, like, you know, seeing, you know, it's nice to see Mickey and Jimmy Allen and some of these people, like, starting to get on, like, not just getting on radio, but having hits on radio. and it seems it seems like that genre is changing

I mean we we did an interview that hasn't come out yet but like you know talking about like Lil Nas X and like that's a that was a country smash and that was like had that happened had

that happened after George Floyd that song wouldn't be stripped off of country billboard you know what I mean but it happened before and I think think people were

afraid, like people were calling it out but not calling it out loud enough. And now people are a little louder. So I hope that it's like that we are moving

into an era where people can accept all of you within a genre. Yeah, man. Yeah, I think like, it's still a game

that has to be played, you know, by an artist of color that's singing country music. Like, they still have to, be within those boundaries you know to

whereas like is it like what you sing about or is it musicality like what do you think is that are the things that are most I mean I mean I don't I don't think that

I don't think that a Walker Hayes Apple Bay Applebee song I don't think that could be done by a black country artist because it's got too much influence from that culture.

You know, so then if it's a black artist doing it, they'll say that's not country, you know. But if it's somebody like that, then they'll say, okay, we love it. It's amazing. Like, so, so I think that's like the subtle underlying thing, you know. And the thing about the little nons, obviously he was just kind of playing around with it. He's not like really a country artist or whatever. That's cool. And he's amazing.

But like they did as big and huge. that song was, they did not play it on country radio. Country radio it didn't hardly even chart, I don't think, which definitely wasn't in the top 20 or anything, like top 30, probably anything. But if that was a white artist, I mean, in a sense that

like, BB Rexa had a number one song at country radio, not that that has anything to do with color, but it has to do with the idea that, you know, they're willing to listen to, they're willing to accept pop artists and put them at country radio in the, write with the right song.

And so, you know, why was that not pop? And why was the little Nas X one pop? Right. I guess it's... Right, man. I mean, it's like that. But

to your point, man, it's definitely changing. It's definitely changing a lot. And all the stuff that's happened that has been caught on camera, all of these police things and all that. It's really opened up a lot of people's eyes, all these protests and stuff. So, you know, me being down here, you know,

I can really, I can really tell you that, like, there is a lot of change. And it's because of the other, I think it's because of the other parts of America, like L.A. or New York or places like that that make it, that's, you know, that's like looking down on people being like that. You can't be like that.

But in the South and in the Midwest, in some of these places, man, these dudes and these people are mad. Well, they're mad about the infiltration, just like they've been mad about, you know, Mexicans coming over. They're mad at, you know, anybody taking what's theirs. And country music was started by really slaves in the field, you know, and the banjo is actually an African instrument. And so it's actually, it's actually everybody's, you know. And it's not like we're just not coming over here. But we are. We just been kept out for so long, been kept out.

So I'm just being like, nah, man, hey, I talk like this, I dress like this. I am like this. But I lived in the country. You can go ask and see wherever. And there's so many people who haven't even, you know, really lived that country. Like, it's just that they just think I'm going to do some country music or whatever. But, man, it's also about the words that I hear people say down here. You know, I may time have been around.

I hear somebody use the N-word, man. Really? Yeah, around here in Nashville and out at these other shows. I'm talking about country artists, stars. I'm talking about songwriters. I'm talking about people that would say things. about some of the other black artists and the only reason why they're being, you know,

accepted is because it is and that. And I would hear it like, like I'm sitting here and I'm hearing them talk right behind me. I'm like, oh my gosh. And sometimes it'd be said directly to me. I have to have a conversation and be like, look, man. And so I, it's been, it's been brutal, dog. I know nobody's going to talk to you like this and tell you this,

but it's been brutal. Like I've had to have therapy about that. Like, man, I can't, I don't even know how long I could stay down here, but I feel like I'm on a mission. And, you know. But you've put in so much, you've put in such, obviously, quality work within the genre as a writer. And that is a genre that looks to the writing community to lead its, you know, its future. And I feel like there are so many people rooting for you, you know.

And look, man, you got, you have, you're still, you're signed to a. major label in Nashville you know and you know it's it feels like I know you're you have something to prove but it's something to prove for like all of us like we're we're supporting you

more than all those people who don't get it like they don't get it anyway those guys those guys are talking shit anyway like they're talking shit about everybody yeah they're they're looking at, well, that guy's only here because he's black. They're also going, like, that girl's only here because she's a girl. And, you know, they're out on the road cheating on their spouse and doing whatever they're doing.

Like, they've got all kinds of loyalty issues. You're, like, you're leading the way in a different, you know, it is, it is really hard. And it's unfortunate that it is, that it's particularly difficult, especially for somebody who has, like, your discography. You know, like, people should be like, all the doors should be swinging open. But they will swing open. Like, people are rooting for you, man.

They are. Thank you. Thank you, my dog. Like, for any one of those people that, that you hear that talk shit, there's, I mean, what's that, you know, like, we all focus on the negative,

the one negative voice. Obviously, there are more than one negative voice, but like there are so many people that, you know, there's a reason why you're featured on half these records. There's a reason why a lot of them featured on your record. Yeah. You know? Yeah, for sure, man.

It's a big blessing, bro. I just, you know, I'm just going to keep it 100 when I can to let people know that it's not all peachy, because I know a lot of people ain't going to say it. And I don't say everything when I'm in whatever. magazine or something. I tell them the real, but I don't say everything. But I just want you, you know, I just want you to know in all the people

because you've been doing, I love your podcast. I love everything y'all been doing, man. So I just want to come here and just give you the real deal how it is. We need that. The only way people change is in industry is if people are willing to say it how it is.

Like, you know, I mean, it's still a primarily like it's still a sexist, racist, you know, it's not just our industry, but it also includes our industry. You know, like, we definitely need, like, we need people to say it how it is so that way, you know, that, so that way they're appropriate allies so people can help, you know what I mean? Yeah, like, it's every industry for sure. It's an American issue. Just like this whole Supreme Court thing with the women and stuff, you know? It's like, it's like, it's like, There's some things that's going backwards. And we got to, you know, we got to make sure that we stand up for progress

and supporting and loving everybody just how they are, man. That's how we're going to win. What are things, and I'm going to go to the last segment in a minute, but what are things that you think the, like if you were to say, if you would have one sort of like overall thing to say to the pop and country community, about your experience. Like, how would you sum that up? Man, I was just really sum it up as a, what's the word I'm looking for?

It's a systematic thing, right? So there's so much education that has to go into what has happened in this country. and the only way for people to get an understanding is to go and do a deep dive and get real education on laws that have been passed and just the way things started all the way up until now. And you'll see the common thread of what it's like to be slaves and descendants of slaves in a country that wasn't made for you. you know. And so I don't put that on nobody that's here right now other than it's just ingrained. It's ingrained in society so people aren't understanding. That's the first thing is that when somebody goes to talk about it, they say, well, wait a minute, there's the black president. Wait a minute. There's a black country. So they don't understand. But there's,

it's just, it's so heartbreaking when you see the struggle of people doing way, worse than me. You know, my, my thing is like, you know, what's really going on in this, in this country still has to, uh, still has to change in a lot of ways, you know, um, as far as, and I think the younger generation is getting, is getting a hold of that, you know, they're like, man, everybody, everybody's good. Everybody's, everybody's equal. We love everybody. But when you, but when you discriminate against somebody, a group of people, women, uh, you know, Blacks, whoever for so long, it's like my brother told me one time, it's like starting a monopoly game and getting all the hotels and getting all of this and that and say, you go to jail. And then finally you let them out of jail, but you got all the property, you got everything already.

And you said, okay, but now it's equal, you know. So that's cool to say it's equal, but it's actually some things that people are still a far away behind. So you can't just expect them. Thank you. You can't just expect them to be able to do. the same things that other people are able to do. It's tough. So that's all, you know, I have to say it, it's tough.

Yeah, I think that's all real talk. And it's, you know, I've had conversations with old white guys because there are a lot of them. And it's one of those things where it's like, would you, you know, you kind of hit the lottery if you're an old white guy. You know, that you start, like, how do you not see that you were, you didn't start on second base or third base? or third base. How do you not see that? Even if you have, even if everyone's broke and equally broke, it's still not equal. It's still just not.

And it's hard to explain that. And, you know, I know, like, it is an education process. And so I think it's important for people to listen. And, you know, so I appreciate the candid. Yeah. That's beautiful that you, it's beautiful that you understand that, bro. I appreciate that a lot, man. Well, let's go real quick.

Just do a five for five. I'm going to list five things. Just tell me what comes off the top of your head. And then we'll finish you up. All right. Let's go with the first one, Nelly. Do I just say five things? No, you can say one thing.

I'm just name five people or five things. And then just tell me what comes off the top of your head. So let's start with Nellie. Groundbreaking. Really is the best. Yeah, yeah. Let's go with Charlie Puth. a genius

Courtney B a hustler and I'm so grateful for him man he made it happen let's go with Warner Nashville so supportive and wonderful and my best ever

experience with a record label or anybody or any executive people in the music business I love them They really are great. And it's a really good record label and a good publishing company out of Nashville. Shout out Warner. And finally, your dad.

You know, he sacrificed so we could be here, you know, doing this. And he gave me music. So I'm super grateful for him for playing all those good songs in the house. And my mom played a lot of good songs too. just didn't play him or she just pushed play all though like man morris city macy chapman and stuff that got me in the country too um so yeah man um i'm very grateful for my parents they've been supportive and loving all the time man well thank you for doing the podcast uh you know every time i see you i get really excited because i know like you know when we first

met like I was I knew Will Hogue was opening for Sugar Land and I know the guy who plays pedal steel for him so like he he got his tickets and my wife loved country music and she was

I was like oh I bet I can get her country like I can get her some tickets to a country country. You know and and I didn't really know anything about country music I was I was only a couple years into really writing I was doing a lot of Drey and Vidal sessions

more like you know R&B kind of stuff that's what I was in the studio doing so like I wasn't really into country and I went to the country concert and my wife comes over

and she goes and she buys two country hats and it was her like test to see if like will I wear a cowboy hat when she gives it to me and I'm all like I'm like I'm an Uber dork so I'm just like hell yeah put it on So like here I am wearing that

And I just remember like You know To me it was this opening of a world Where I was like Oh man if I can Infiltrate this world a little bit Like if I can impress this This woman who I'm now have a

You know a child with You know Later my first number one song Was country and all that stuff So like I was like really excited to have like To be To know some people And

I don't remember if we had met before maybe at something or if I just met you there. But it was a small, like one of those backstage things at the Greek. And it's those things where it's like, you're like listening to that song that reminds me of one of the best days of my life. Dang, bro. That's incredible, dude. So I like, you know, we don't hang out enough, but it means a lot.

Like, I love watching and cheering for you, even if we don't talk all the time. So I know it's been a hard journey, but your talent is one of a kind. And you're going to do all the things that you want to do. And I love that you're in a good situation right now because you've earned a good situation across the board. You know, like personal life, career-wise. And I just wanted you to know that that's how I feel about you. Man, thank you, my dog. Man, I got all the love for you, dog.

I'm so proud of all the such you didn't did, man. You didn't kill the game, bro. And this podcast is amazing. I appreciate y'all getting me on here, dude. I want to hook up with you soon. Yeah, man, of course. There you go. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself.

See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.