And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 175: Maisie Peters

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

Today’s guest wrote her first song when she was nine years old and quickly began honing her songwriting skills. After teaching herself guitar, this writer took to open mic nights and busking around West-Sussex, using the money to launch a YouTube channel. Over time, she began cultivating what is now one of the most dedicated fanbases in modern pop. Our guest eventually signed to Atlantic Records in 2018 and released her debut EP, ‘Dressed Too Nice For A Jacket’, later that year.In the years that have followed, our guest has firmly established herself as one of pop’s brightest new talents, racking up over a billion global streams and earning famous fans like Taylor Swift, Phoebe Bridgers and Sam Smith, as well as launching her very own virtual book club, with guests including Annie Lord, Bolu Babalola and Elif Batuman. Running full steam ahead, this writer went on to sell out her second US headline tour and support Ed Sheeran on his mammoth UK/EU stadium tour, with five more dates confirmed for the North American run later this year. Continuing with a landmark year in 2023, this summer our guest released her acclaimed sophomore album The Good Witch, which earned her her first #1 on the UK Album Chart, marking her as the youngest British female solo act since 2014 to claim a #1, and the youngest artist to claim a #1 since Olivia Rodrigo’s Sour.And The Writer Is…Maisie Peters! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about one of the end of the writer is community. of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends

and repeat guests on the writer is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans, including Christopher Cross, the go-goes, run the jewels, John Belly, John Ryan, Mozilla, Julian Benetta's Family Affair, Carad DiGuardi, Zara House, Future Cuts, Sam Waters, Ruth Ann, Brian Morgan, and various other amazing songwriters. In fact, they have publishing deals with Kito, Robop, Sophia Valdez, Charlie Brand, Tilly, and more.

So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you. appreciate Evans and Tilly and more. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evans work. Because of him, we have songwriter of the year. Because of him, we have songwriter's added to the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. Hey guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives

without ever taking ownership of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever. whatever it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right. It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host

Ross Golan. Today's singer-songwriter, Future Superstar is not just a post. poetic lyricist with an ear for hooks. Nope, she's a clever self-promoter with a unique perspective in a sea of cookie-cutter artists. Maybe it's more appropriate to say biscuit cutter artists, eh? Anyway, she amassed a huge YouTube following before releasing her viral debut single at just 17 years old. Her innate gift for storytelling and diary entry-like songs has earned her celebrity fans such as Ed Shear and Phoebe Bridgers. and her idol, Taylor Swift. In fact, she is signed to Sir Ed's label Ginger Breadman Records.

She dropped her debut album. You signed up for this in 2021 and is already on to the next collection of records. All the way from the United Kingdom, this writer is amazing. I know because I've seen it firsthand. And the writer is Maisie Peters. Hello, thank you for having me. Hi, how are you? I am really good. How are you?

I'm good. Okay, so we've written together, so I've gotten to see your mind work a little bit in person. And I feel like over the course of the interview, people will kind of hear how that thing works up there. But you know, on the first album, you have a song on it that refers to John Hughes. And, you know, John Hughes is sort of before your time, but it's like right in the wheelhouse for my time. You know, it's like it is my childhood. Every movie that was good was a John Hughes movie. Why would a girl from West Sussex write a song about John Hughes?

Who in your family taught you about John Hughes? You know what? I remember watching Ferris Bueller as a kid. watching it in my friend's house actually. But I mean, I don't think at the time I necessarily knew it would make the impact it did. I watched it and I enjoyed it. And then I think you sort of, so it was in my, the breakfast club and Ferris Bueller were in my atmosphere. And I grew up really into pop culture.

And even though I'm not necessarily the biggest watcher of films, I just interested in the, almost the world around it. And so it would have been in my, in my atmosphere. and then I wrote that song and I wrote it when I was 17, I think, and it was with two different people, a guy called Henrik, Muckerson, and a woman called Miranda Cooper who wrote like huge big songs in the UK. It was part of a group called Zenomania and did like Girls Aloud, which I loved Girls Aloud growing up.

That was my favorite thing in the world. And so we wrote this song and I think that honestly people ask me this because people find it surprising that I knew or who John Hughes was. And I could only say that I don't vividly remember. how it got into the song or how it became part of the song. I think it would have been down to me and Miranda. And I just think it was in my... I have a lot of things knocking around.

And I think it must have just been floating around and I must have just grabbed it. I mean, all those movies were taken in my neighborhood growing up. No way. So the end of breakfast club where the hand is in the air. That's my high school football field. And like the... No.

You know, my niece and nephew go to that high school where they film Breakfast Club and where the car drives off in Ferris Bueller's. The White House in the background was my homecoming dates house. All those movies were so my childhood that I felt like it was a bubble that I didn't know that it was special to be that close. And so, you know, I listened to that album because we had written together and hearing that was just, it was nostalgic for me and it's nice to listen to somebody who's not the same age as me

feel just as nostalgic about something like that. So I think you have this ability to grab details that are out in the ether and put it in your songs almost like a novelist more than what I think of as a songwriter. And I guess going back again, even to the beginning. Tell me about your life. What is your childhood like? What is West Sussex like? What is East Sussex like? What are the Sussexes to a bunch of people outside of London? Sure thing. The Sussexes are countryside. I grew up in a little town. It's not

minuscule, but there's like a couple of buses and some sheep and like one school. And one school. and one shop and one post office and one pet shop. And I grew up there and I was a huge reader. Before I loved music, I think I loved books and I loved fiction. And I just was obsessed. I really remember being like from eight, probably like seven, eight. And I just would go through books, just go through them. And I would read my parents' books.

I would read anything anyone gave to me. And my parents are very cool and was, sort of just let me read whatever really. Like we talk about it now about some of the choice things I must have read back then. But I just was insatiable and I read every hour. And I would sort of like write a bit. I would try and write books, but I was like nine. And also I was so impatient.

So I think I would get like a few pages in and I would stop. So that was like a big core obsession. And I also loved music and my parents both really like music. But I wasn't like, I always. say like I was not like a prodigal child. Like I was not singing the solos in the choir. I was not winning the talent show. Like I was reading and I was like singing a bit maybe but not well. I was thoroughly withhold that I was not singing well. And then I think I conjoined the two, the two of obsessions of like words and music met when I discovered Love Story by Taylor Swift.

and I would say that was the catalyst for the combination. And then I became obsessed with writing songs. And that was like, I was going to say 12. And I was like, I was obsessed. But I was in this like little village and I would just go home and I would from school and I would get my guitar and I would just write like three songs. And then I'd write three more the next day. And they were nothing to like, they were just lies.

I was just fictionalizing. I was like writing little books as songs and then nothing was happening to me because I was 12. But I was pretending what these things were happening. Did your parents play music? Yes, they did. What did they play? What did they play? I think in the car, again, it's interesting.

I grew up, me and I have a twin sister, and we sort of were almost the DJs. I think my parents, within reasons, sort of let us pick what we liked from what they were playing. So, Abba was huge, Abba Gold, the CD, we listened to all the time. We listened to the first Lily Allen album. I was obsessed with that. We listened to Plan B, The Defamation of Strickland Banks. What else was there? Simon and Garfunkel was on, definitely.

My dad loves Bruce Springsteen, so we would listen to that. Yeah, I would sort of all of those people are floating around. Take that. Take that album. That was big in my car. Having a twin. did she also do music? No, she did not.

None of my family do music at all. I'm the only one. And she, I tried to make her do music. I tried to make her be in a band with me as a like sort of 11, 12 year old. And she wasn't, she wasn't into it. I was so confused because I loved it so much. And I didn't understand why she didn't also want to write songs with me every minute of the day. And, but she didn't.

And so we did it a little bit together, but she was not interested. What is she into? And are the, you know, when you think of twins, you, if you're not one, you assume that they do everything together. So, you know, that seems to be the point where you guys choose to do different things. What was her, what is her passion? I mean, we're so different as people go with the most different, two most different people you could meet. She is arguably like a lot more extroverted than me. I think growing up she was sort of had way more friends, was going to parties, was living her best teenage life, and I was definitely not doing that as much.

And now she's, she went to university, she got a degree in fashion and marketing, and now she lives in London and she does marketing for a big company, and she kills it. Are you an introvert? Maybe, maybe a little bit. I definitely, I maybe I just think all the things I love doing. You can do alone, like reading and writing. writing less so then I guess I became someone that does a lot of co-writing later on in my like songwriting experience but for the first four years I was just on my own in my bedroom every day it's interesting that a lot of songwriters are introverts and obviously artists tend to be extroverts or they're forced to be extroverts at least for an hour at a time when they're on stage, you know, do you feel like an imposter when you're being the artist version of you?

No, but I do think what you just said, because I think I'm a songwriter who was an artist because that's, I had my songs that I wanted to play. And I didn't know any other way. Like, I didn't, I know one in my family does music. I grew up in a small town. I didn't know what an artist was. I didn't know what a label was. I just wrote songs and played them. But I think that there's definitely, and I love being an artist now, and I can't imagine anyone else using the songs that I make, and they come hand in hand with me.

Like, I couldn't, I make them for me from my life, from my mouth. But definitely, I'm, I was not a natural on stage. I think I was, I had to learn it. I had to really focus and, like, graft and learn how to perform. And I think if you look at videos from me five years ago and me now, it's just like a different person. And there's no, no. I think there's like no, for me, at least natural skill for me that.

Whereas as a songwriter, I sort of figured it out much quicker and it was much more, it came much easier, I think. Yeah, it's weird when you said you can't imagine other people recording your songs. And, you know, what you try to do if you're a good co-writer in the room is enable the artist to write a song or write a song with or for the artist that can't be pitchable. Otherwise, it becomes really generic. And yet, you know, there's something relatable enough to your songs that maybe there is

an artist out there that would find themselves in your song, even if you're not necessarily like pitching the song. Have you had any artists want to cut any of your songs, or is that something that interests you as a writer outside of being an artist? It definitely interests me. I would love to at some point. in my career, I really see myself doing that for a while

because I love being in the studio and I love writing. And I've done you know, I've written songs with and for other people. Some of them are out and have done really cool things and I've like always really enjoyed that so I would love to do it at some point. And yeah, I would never, I've never

had anybody I don't think I've ever had anybody one of my songs like actively be like this person wants it right now. There's been like, you know, whispers of this and that but nothing imperative. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, obviously some of the people that you are attached to

in the music industry have a history of writing their songs and other people cutting them and them being very successful. So I think that we're knocking on that door soon enough. But one last question before going further into the journey of being the artist you are, when you said, you know, at nine years old, you tried to write, but you were nine years old, as far as like a novel.

I don't know why I'm so curious about this, and I've never talked to another artist like this, but it feels like there's some part of you that's going to be writing books also. Do you feel, when I write short stories or I work on musicals or something, I have the ability when you write dialogue to use the appropriate word,

even if it doesn't rhyme. Like there are some things that, there are some things in songwriting that are really difficult that aren't as difficult when you're just allowed to use the correct word and not the correct word that sings well, if that makes sense.

Do you have any aspirations to write anything long form outside of songs? Definitely. I'm really, I'm super interested in it. I read a lot, and I'm really inspired by, I almost feel like as a song, I'm maybe even more so inspired by authors than I would be by music in a funny way.

I'm really inspired by both, obviously. But I think, I would say I think that the constraints that you're under in songwriting or somewhat help as well, because as much as it's limiting to be like this word has to rhyme, it also gives you a box that you can tick and fill. And I like to tick a box. And there's no boxes to tick and fill in, well, different months. But I would love to write something longer form. and I'm sort of actually, it's been something I'm thinking about more recently,

and I've been reading a lot. I've read a book called Bluitz by Maggie Nelson, and I've read a lot of Joan Didion recently, and it's definitely something I'm thinking about. But I'm also trying to make another album, so we'll see what happens first. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's one of those things where if you're on tour

and it's hard to pick up a guitar, maybe that's when you're dabbling in. But I have such high expectations. I don't know. I think... For which? For books. For the music...

I mean, I have high expectations for all of it, but I think as someone who reads the amount that I do and that loves... And I read fiction. I don't really read nonfiction. And I think that... Because of that, I would... I don't think I could write a novel yet.

Like, I couldn't begin that. I think I'm too young and I need to learn more. And I wouldn't want to do that until I felt sure there's... I'm a ready person to do that. some form of book and an essay style thing maybe or something

different I can see myself doing in the near future. I like that. You know, I was talking to an artist who has designed her career around her first love, which was choreography and then sort of like sparked

the way she writes songs and I just, you know, it's like it seems so obvious that you're somebody who's well read if you just listen to any of your lyrics. Going from a place we were made, that's the first real

single that people know you for. Do you feel like tell me about the experience of releasing that song and then how you interpret that experience from where you are now? I think there

was so much, and I'm so grateful for it now, there was so much naivity in that experience. I was, I had a manager I've made the same manager I've had since I was 15 it's called Bobby and we're very close and he was managing me and he'd set me up with a guy called Brad Ellis

who's a good friend of his and also a songwriter and myself and Brad and the guy called Jazz Ash House we'd all written that song together and I've been writing at this point I've been doing sessions for a year or so but as it is when you first start out how did you meet a manager before releasing a song through I had a YouTube channel

and I put original music up every day Not every day, every week. And I would film it in my bedroom, and I had a little microphone. And I would just, I just posted original music. And I think he found me five, ten videos into that. And when he found you, he just contacted you and you were like, yeah, I'll take a manager. Or were you looking for it? No, I wasn't looking for it.

I was 15. I was at school. And again, I had no music industry experience. I had no knowledge. But this person was saying, that they thought I was good and that they thought I could, you know, they would like, do, is there something you'd want to do? And I was like, yeah, I think so. But I also was really surprising to nobody. I was very studious. And I was very focused on my grades and on my exams.

And I was my whole time of school. I did the full thing. And I was very, I was a massive nerd. So I did, so I started working with a manager, but I also was doing school. So I remember I told him, like, you can't. I was like, I can't talk to you for the next three weeks because I'm doing my exams. and I was 16. And luckily he is still working with me to this day. So I didn't scare him off. But yeah, he was, and then he was my manager and he still is. I think that that's, you know, that would be a reason to stick with a writer.

It's somebody who's really determined to finish a project. I mean, there's a great quote that says, geniuses finished things. And I think that that's like, that's just somebody who has, you know, even if it's if it's class and it's an assignment, whatever the assignment is, whatever, if it's an album or if it's something is less significant like an exam.

All those things really end up affecting your personality if you don't finish things. So I could see that being enticing. Did the rest of your high school, did the rest of your friends, were they all aware of your YouTube channel and the success you were having

releasing stuff? Were you becoming popular? If you, you will, or were people like, oh, that's just amazing doing what she does? I think the second. I was at a small school. It was very much small town. But I was kind of, I don't know, I mean, I released

place we made in my last year of school. So I was somewhat on the radar. I was releasing things. But it just feels like a different time. And it was 2017, so it, in many ways, wasn't. But it, there was, you know, I was on Instagram, I guess,

but everyone was on Instagram. And I, but there was no TikTok. and there was no sort of what it looks like to be an artist today I think looked quite different back then so I was just a normal I was just normal I just had music that came out and I guess did really well

for the context of which it was but also I think everyone was used to me being the girl that sang in assemblies and I was a busker so people I was like people had seen at school busking from school so yeah I think people were just kind of used to it and not that interested which is nice you were a busker

in school or you were doing that in town. No, I was doing that in town and then people from school, I guess, would like see me. Got it. It's really funny. Did people ever throw change in your, you know, it's like, oh my God, hi! And then they're like... Probably. I think I blocked it out for mental health.

How crazy that 2017 really isn't very long ago. No. And everyone thinks the music industry is the way it is. Like that, they all think that this snapshot of the way

the music industry is is the way it is and will always be. They have such a difficult time recognizing that none of it's precedential. It's all just a moment. And it's all, it doesn't all just flourish forever and ever. If it did, we'd still have MySpace. If it did, we'd still have CDs. If it did, we'd have tapes. You know, keep going all the way back.

We'd have Shalak records. or wax cylinders. And we don't, at the time, everyone always felt like, oh, this is how, this is what you need to do to be successful. You need to sell yourself like this. You need to write songs like this because this is what everyone's looking for right now.

And I feel like that's when record labels and fans can consume music now however they want. But I guarantee, in five years from now, there will be other technology and other ways of consumption that will not be, will be as vastly different as 2017 is to now. It's just the way it is. And yet everyone is like, oh, well, I should write music or labels are like, I want you to do things that would work on TikTok. And you're like, well, okay, that's fine, but that's still, it's a month. It's a moment and it also is really hard to create

viral content purposefully. Otherwise, we'd all do it all the time and we'd all be really good at it. Do you get a lot of pressure? Being somebody who broke before TikTok, you know, or was discovered before TikTok, do you get a lot of pressure from, you know, the machine to create content that maybe isn't as nuanced as, you know, a train into Waterloo as our song had as a lyric. You know, like, do you feel like there's pressure to satisfy? Hey, guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago.

They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know

is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming, sync, whatever it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website, or DM them on Instagram,

or call 8444 for all music. That's right. It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Hey, guys. I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends, and repeat guests on the writer, is Evan Bogart.

Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans. That's the kind of person Evan is in real life, and that's the kind of person that runs Seeker.

So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan too and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work. Because of him, we have Songwriter of the Year, because of him, we have songwriters added to the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. You know that. It's funny.

It's the never-ending question. And I think that I, for me, because I didn't come from TikTok, or from really, I mean, I came from YouTube maybe, but it's, which I think was a real blessing because it's, It meant that I got, I became an artist and I was doing music and I was, I didn't get, it didn't sort of fall into me. Like it didn't, the opportunity it didn't fall into my lap, which is what happens sometimes with people nowadays is that you make one video and it's, and it's huge and these things happen to you.

I feel like it happened because of me. I was, I was actively sort of wanting it and looking to be this and then I, and then I was. but I think that then having to be someone who discovered it when they were already doing things, you know, TikTok was a year ago, two years ago. For me, it was, it's less of there was a, I mean, of course, there's an external pressure, there always is. And sometimes you have people going,

this would be great if this worked on TikTok, but then my answer is that, well, you know, as long as we've been making music, someone's been asking artists to make music for like commercial benefits, someone's gone, this would be great if it worked on radio, this would be great if it worked on MTV. So it's just a continuation. of the same thing. And then I found, for me, it was less other people, other people were asking me

to, you know, get on this app and figure it out. But also, I'm ambitious and I wanted a long and sustainable career. And I saw that there were opportunities and there were ways of which to, if there's going to be this thing that exists, then I'm like, well, I want to do it and I want to do it well, and I want to do it right for me. So I became sort of separately interested and I was like how do I do this and feel happy and not sort of solace whilst doing it because there has to be a way. And I feel like that's been like the last year and a half year of my life. I was like figuring that out of how to how to take this thing and make it work and for me in a way that I like really enjoy. Yeah.

I mean it seems to be working for you, you know. But even before that, it's like from from the outside. set. Let's go back to 2017. I know jumping forward back, forward back, but you know, you release a couple songs and you have a manager

but a lot of artists are releasing songs that are viral ish or viral songs but don't necessarily get record deals and then you end up signing to maybe the best record company in the UK. How

did you understand the gravity of getting a record deal from Atlantic Records in the UK? Did it like, was it one of those things where it's like, hey, Atlantic Records want to say, you're like, oh my God, Atlantic Records. Or was it like, okay, what's that? I mean, because I don't think at that age I understood how significant names like Atlantic Records were.

No, I don't know if I did either. I didn't, again, like I really didn't come from a place where that was a thing. and I was 17, I was 16 when I was like meeting these, like lots of different people from lots of different labels and I was lucky again

I have a really great manager so I was not sort of like alone fending for myself but I think I was a I was aware that it was a big deal and I was sort of surprised somewhat that they all wanted to meet me but I don't think I was

I don't think I would have understood the gravity no and like I'm glad for it. I'm so glad for so much naivety that was the whole the beginning of my journey, because it makes you so invincible because you're so, I was so naive to like comparison and

an opportunity and what something meant versus what something else meant and what this artist is doing and that I'm not doing. I just was so unaware because I was so clueless that I was like, this is so cool. I'm doing a session. This is so cool. I'm playing to 50 people in a room and they all came to see me.

This is so cool. I'm putting on a show and it's in a pub that I know. And if I was older, that would be gone because you know so much. But at that point in my life, I was just, everything was cool, which is amazing. Yeah, maybe the coolest thing about being successful and getting a record deal at, you know,

18 years old, give or take, is that your peers are, also in a place where they're discovering music. If you got a record deal at 35 years old or 40 years old or 50 years old, those people, they stopped getting new music 10 years ago. Do you know what I mean? Versus like the music that you're crafting is for you, but is being consumed by people who are within five years of your age,

younger and older. You know, like the bulk of it. I mean, obviously you have fans that are much younger and fans that are much older, but the idea of being able to be immersed in a, like within the generation and being kind of in that culture, it is the zeitgeist. And I think that showed that like the first song,

once you signed that deal was worst of you, which was obviously a really big success. did you get a chance to hear that song listening to music is often a very solitary experience people are listening with headphones on but did you get a chance to listen to it outside when did you first hear it outside of you playing it for someone

because for sure you started hearing it places I don't know it's a good question in a way that song's that song is so funny because it was, it was like a fun fact about the song is that actually that John Hughes movie was meant to come out instead of that song, but we couldn't get it right and the production was wrong,

and it was too big and it sounded too like bombastic and it just wasn't right. So John Hughes movie got put on hold, and then we were like, okay, let's go with this other song. And I remember saying to my manager in the Spanish classroom in my school, I was like, we can put out worse to you, but like, I just want you to know that I don't think,

it's just, it's not as good as John Hughes movie. And as long as we're all, like, on board with that, as long as we all are aware, then like that's fine it's like a placeholder which is famous last word's classic and then that song sort of became this is like one of my biggest songs and it's this like really

was really important in getting to where I am today but it also was in a way like one of it's like a it was an internet song it actually blew up later on not when it was released but like a few months later because of like Instagram edits people were making where they put that song in the background

and so this was before TikTok but it was I guess it kind of did what TikTok does now. So because of that, it's like this, it was this big sort of growing monster, but I didn't, it wasn't on the radio, it wasn't in, I would hear it in shops maybe sometimes,

but it was just like the, it was almost the beginning of that wave of like music managing to be so big online and yet, like, you can ask your mom and she has no idea what you're talking about. That's really funny. It also, it's probably humbling to be wrong

at that level. You know, to be so wrong does it make you trust your team differently when you were so wrong? Yes, it does.

And it makes you, well, it's made me realize over the years that this is why I, there's almost like a sort of fun unknowing in writing music I have these days where I'm like, I don't know anything and neither really does anybody else because if we all knew everything, we'd all

make number one records all the time. So with that being said, and if it's so, I feel like nowadays more than ever, if it's so unknowable of what's going to be massive and what's not, then why try, like, why try to write that number one song as opposed to why not just try and make something good? And I genuinely, and that's not me aiming for a lower bar, that's me saying if I don't know, if I can admit that I don't know so much about what makes something take off the way it does,

other than I think it has to sound real, have to believe that what's being said is real and who's saying it means it. If that's what I think is like the basic criteria, then let's, there's so much fun in that. There's so much freedom is what I found. What is a hit? I think there's different types, I guess, but if you're talking, like, it has to be like culture, it has to feel part of culture. It's like, has to feel part of that time of everybody's life. You know, everyone jokes about song of the summer, but that's, that's the thing. It's like, what was the song that everyone heard.

Releasing an EP like dressed too nice for a jacket. You know, that's sort of, that's the first collection of records that comes out on a major. Did you have any expectations releasing the first

anything like that? No. No. I had no. Again, I was 18 maybe. Maybe not, yeah, maybe 18. And I was I'd never put together a project. I had never released

anything larger than a song and I was, I made that EP over the course of probably like six, eight months and it was just a collection of all my favorite things that I'd done in those six to eight months and I, and again, I think, I really do look back on a lot of the things I did and think that

I'm so proud of them and I'm so pleased that passed me with the lack of knowledge that she did, that she had managed to make these things that I think actually have aged really well and I'm really proud of still. The perspective you have now is so, it's so mature.

It's something that is so hard to allow younger self to make mistakes, to be, and then also to applaud the successes of younger self and to not live around it. I mean, it's just a moment and then you can take her

for who she was at that time. and move on. That obviously led to more music coming out. You know, you have songs that are featured on a bunch of TV shows. You know, most importantly, Love Island, which I think starts to like, you know, it's got to feel like, okay, you know, yeah, right of passage, exactly. But there's sort of a different thing once you start really touring and start playing for, like, a lot of people.

You're going from saying that, oh, yeah, at first it was like, oh, my God, I'm playing for 50 people when they all came to see me is awesome. When you think about one human talking to 50 people, that's incredible. 50 humans coming to see one person, there aren't a lot of things in your life that you can have a 50 times multiple like that, that has that kind of significance. And then you go on tour with Niles, sort of the first major tour, I think. And, you know, you go on these kinds of tours where you are in front of tens of thousands of people, it's not natural.

It's so, so unnatural. Going out on stage for 100 people is terrifying. Going out on stage for tens of thousands is like numbing in a different way. At least that was my experience. how is your experience going from wow 50 people and throughout all these things I'm sure you're playing for a few hundred here a few hundred there maybe a thousand there

a thousand there what's what's it like when you go into a sea of humans a sea of humans so I to be honest the first huge experience I had of that was more recently because so I was meant to do this Nile tour and I was meant to do a Louth tour but they both got cancelled because of COVID so they never actually happened

I just thought they were going to Oh, I see. Classic, a classic example. So then I was the first sort of, the tours I did when I came back from COVID, we did a tour of America in March. And then I, which was my tour, and then I went on Ed's tour for like six months. And that was to like tens of thousands of people every night. And that was really, yeah, it's like a different thing. It's actually just a wholly different beast than like a show to 500 or 50 or 1,000 people

because there's so many people that your, it's almost like your mission is so different. Like, it's going to be interesting going back to playing my shows now in November because I've spent the last X amount of months, six months. With this like, it's almost like you go in. it's like the first day of work every day in this sort of weird way where it's like, oh, I'm going to make a good impression and I have an hour to make a good impression.

It's like a job interview to 50,000 people. And it's like, I'm going to, these people don't know me, but they are here and they do sort of have to listen unless they really don't have to listen, in which case they will just start talking and turn around, but I do have like a certain amount of time to make them. And then, yeah, but it's so, it's sort of like, when it's the scale of that,

it's almost like they're there and they're not. It's so many people that you can't even grasp it. It's like way less scary than 50 people. How does that change the way you write or does it not? You know, performing in front of that many people, then it's like, doesn't some of the nuance in the verse lyrics start to seem like it goes over their head? Or is it sort of like that's good,

then that keeps it grounded. And, you know, how do you get that melody in that chorus, that 50,000 people who have their backs turn to you, turn around, and they're like, oh, yeah, I could sing that song. You see what nuance works and what doesn't, and some does brilliantly, and you see it captivate people, and you see people pay attention. Like what?

I just think of specific lyrics. I think of, in John Hughes' movie I sing. think I've got it up too tall and you I should have wore my added ass and I always see people I don't know what it is about that line it's just like the word added us just like prompts

prompt something people look and I think there's when you manage to get something like that which is simultaneously personal and universal at the same time where everyone can know what that means it works brilliantly and I

but I also think it's been like going on tour with Ed and watching him play every night and sell out these rooms of like 50,000, 100,000 people has been really inspiring and really made me think a lot about the way I write and what I want my songs to do and how many people I want them to reach and like the, and how something, I'm a words person, right? Like I come from words and I want words and I like words. And if I could, I would write, I used to think I would write songs

with five different choruses. and I think it's watching Ed has made me realize the actual total genius of simplicity and of what's the word I'm looking for here like conciseness

of like and that's what I've become like so deep obsessed with is now like how to how to say what I want in the most concise way possible while it's also keeping the story

and keeping the detail and keeping people thinking that this song could have only been made by me for the Yeah, totally. Again, to go back one step, one of the things that you, writing for something like trying or something where we watched that series on Apple Plus, did it, you know, again, that's almost

closer. Did you see the episodes before writing? No. Or was it something where it was just, sorry to jump back after talking. about touring. But that was something that felt like a different kind of writing. And in the spirit of when you perform shows with, you know, Ed, you have to, you see the quality of simplicity. And then, you know, when you're writing for something like television, how does that change how you write? It was so different. It was with trying, I'd seen season one and I

got given the scripts for season two. And I went through, or I read all the scripts and I made notes on every episode on the general theme on details on clothes and and and sentences and feelings and places that were mentioned of the episode and then I essentially ended up with this sort of Google doc of of a blueprints of each episode blueprints of songs it's like this is my outline um and then I spent not even that long it was like a few months really just sort of writing these songs and I was I did it with a producer and a great friend of one called Joe Rubel and we just sent things back and forth. It was over lockdown.

I was making my album at the same time, so I did both a once. And it was such a different experience because all of that music, I will say, was written entirely for, it's written entirely for listening. It's not written to be played. It's not written to be toured

or to be, yeah, to be performed. To me, it was written to be heard and to be listened to. So that is where, I had the most fun and the most almost sort of weird freedom in making these really intricate songs with really intricate lines and melodies and

and lyrics that went and overlapped with each other and reference each other and it was very much like an audio experience if that makes sense. Sure. Right after, you know, that was announced that's when you signed to Ed Sheeran's label I imagine, you know, one, I don't want to put words in your mouth when I ask, you know, what it's like to have, you know, that kind of artist take that kind of interest, especially considering who the artist was who opened up his doors to Ed. You know, it's like there's, you know, some of these big names that kind of mentor the next generation of artists. one, what was that like?

And two, do you feel like is that a heavy name to be attached to? No, yeah. So I, obviously, I'm English, so I'm a fan of Edgier and I grew up with his music and I was, I learned Lego House on guitar and I listened to Plus and then I listened to Multiply

and I was like every other English teenager of my age. Like we all loved him and it was what we were raised on practically. teenager. And then sort of hearing that he was interested in working with me and that the first time we met and we wrote together was

super surreal because it's someone you've grown up with. I could sing you his whole first album back at you. And then I was meeting that person and I was writing with him and I was and we were getting to know each other and we were and then we were working together and it sort of went one thing to another and I think that I mean everybody says this if you've met him then everybody

says the same thing, which is that there's like not a more down-to-earth person on the earth, like not even celebrity, just like actual human being. And there's, there's, I'd say it all the time, but there is no one like kinder and more gracious and more down to earth than it. And so it's been, it's been so fun and so wonderful and to be attached to somebody like that because he's so influential and he's done so many amazing things. But you won't meet a person who has a bad word to say. really. And so it's sort of, it refutes the pressure because there's, there's no pressure that

comes with it really. He's just someone who's been such a good and amazing and important force like in my life as a creative and as a friend, as a person, someone who's done everything and knows everyone and can tell you everything about any of it. In a way, I feel like we're having this conversation like 10 years early where I'm so, curious what happens after, you know, every time you release something, it already seems like you gain such a perspective on your own life. But what, from where you're sitting right now is the goal? I have a lot of, I have a lot of goals. I want to, you know, you could argue so it doesn't get, it doesn't get box ticky. It's like, the goal is to still be doing this

in like 10, 20 years time. I want to be still making music and I want to still be to still be touring it and I want to still feel as passionate as I do today and I want a career that spans like decades and to have people that come with me through that and people that join later but people that stay and the people that heard my music for the first time when they were 14 I want them to still want to hear it when they're 35 so that's the long-term goal and then I there's small you know there's more obvious immediate ones I want to

headline festivals and I want to write books and I want to make, I want to be in bands. I want to work with other people and I want to do different projects as well as my own. But that's, the main one is to still, is to still feel the way I do and be doing this in how the many years. You want to be in bands? Yeah. Like what?

Like bands? I feel like that was a, that's a real thing we should bring back as like the supergroup. Like there's artists that I love and that I think that would be so cool if we could just all be in bands. I'd like to like, you know, join up with someone. You've seen like Phoebe Bridges do it with better oblivion community and I think it was so great and I've got lots of friends where we all say like, oh, in a couple of years, band. Do you know, there's a band in the country world called the Highway Women? Yes. And, you know, it's like, and the Phoebe Bridges project, obviously,

One of the cool things that's happened in the last five years, in my opinion, is that most of the innovation in alternative rock has come from women. Most of the innovation in countries come from women. And to be a leader in that community and putting together sort of a supergroup, whatever that may be, is absolutely something I condone and think you should. I would love to. You should perceive. There are artists that you're speaking to about it?

There are, there are songwriters, there are producers, there are lots of people. But I mean, it's pipe dreams right now, but I can see us doing it at some point. There's just so many people that I love and that I think, and that I work with still, and I say, you know, let's do it in a few years.

But I've got things to do before then. Yeah, okay. Well, when you get there, let me know. I'll let you know. I want to hang out and be the runner in the studio. You can be the runner. That feels right. That's really interesting.

Just the idea of you said you want to be able to create music, you still want a tour, and where you started from of writing songs alone at home and posting videos of you performing alone. And then going from that to performing for 50,000 people in a pretty relatively short amount of time. Yeah. It's just, it's manic. It's awesome. It is.

It is. I agree. Like awesome and like the lyric, like the actual word like awesome. Yeah. It's, you cannot. It's awesome like mountains.

Yes. It's awesome like. It's exactly. Awesome like mountains. Awesome like sea. No, it's unbelievable. And it's,

it's yeah, something that I'm, like, you don't really wrap your head around. But I think half of music is, playing it for people. So I feel strongly about the fact that I still want to do it in some form forever.

All right, we're going to go to the next segment, which is five for five. I'm going to list five things, and you just tell me what comes off the top of your head. So we're going to start with Taylor Swift. I just say what comes to the top of my head? Sure. Taylor Swift, genius. I think Taylor Swift is, she's like a pivotal figure in my life. Um, and her music.

Does she know that? Does she know that? I hope so. I don't know, but I hope she does. I say it enough on the internet. I, but I would not make music if I hadn't heard Taylor Swift. And I, and if I did, it wouldn't be the music I make today. Your manager.

Oh, family. My manager is family to me. And I mean, his, I used to live with him and his wife in London. I would go up and stay with them and they would, I would sleep on their sofa bed. And Emma, his wife would make me egg. and it was like the most family of all. Ed Shearin. I can't say family again.

I'm picking a new word. Ed Sheeran, influential on my life, I think on music, I think on songwriting. And yeah, quite literally on my life. I mean, he takes me on tour. Thank you, Ed Sheeran, for that one. But also, as a musician and as a person, I've learned the most probably I've learned from anyone from it.

Yeah, it's like the word influencer now has a different meaning. Different meaning. It has a different meaning, different meaning, but there's probably no more appropriate kind of word for, you know, to describe a mentor's influence on a protege other than the word influenced. So I think that makes sense. Number four would be, and this is sort of a two, or would be your parents? They're so supportive.

They're so, and they're so cool. They're so happy that I'm happy as long as I'm happy. And they love music and they're really proud, I think. But also, they've always let me go and do my own thing. I mean, I half moved to London when I was 17, 18, and I was running around and doing God knows what. And they just let me go. So that's what I would say.

They are brave. They are brave. They are brave. Finally, Ellen, your sister. Oh, Ellen is an experience. The Ellen Peters experience, important to go through in your life. No, she's also the best. I'm lucky.

I always say to people who haven't met her, I'm like, oh, you're going to, like, just wait. I'm always like, she's sort of the better one. She's way more fun. And she's so great and she's so funny. And I would just sort of bring her everywhere. She's so funny to throw into a room. It's like throwing sort of a wild animal. Just see what happens.

Well, thank you for doing the podcast. And I know, again, this is one of those that we'll be doing it every so often and we'll catch up and find out what's happening, you know. But thank you for doing it. I have a very short playlist of songs that I love that I've worked on with, that didn't come out for the rest of the world to hear. But I always loved the song that we did. And I think because it's not necessarily, usually in sessions,

I feel like I'm carrying a lot of the melody and lyric weight. I have to go in. Most artists don't necessarily know the direction that they want to, they don't have a clear vision of who they are as an artist. and you go into a world in your head very quickly that in the vein of Bruce Springsteen or in the vein of some of these authors that you speak about, the level of detail, it seems so natural for you to dive into. And it's just so enjoyable to listen because that kind of song takes me to a place.

and it's singable chorus, but it takes me to a place and to be in a place other than in a studio in West Hollywood, you know, and to be in a place that's 8,000 miles away and know exactly what that looks like. Yeah. You know, it takes a fiction writer to bring us there. And so that was my introduction to your world. and I just am appreciative that I've been able to go there with you, at least for that time,

because then every time I listen to anything else you write, I understand where that's coming from. So I appreciate you and thank you for doing it. And it means thank you for having me. This is an honor. I'm so honored to be on. And I'm so honored to talk to you. So thank you so much.

This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.