And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 177: Jeff Barry

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

Today’s guest is a songwriting legend who helped shape the sound of American pop music. Originally setting out to be a recording star, this guest became one of the most respected pop songwriters within the Brill Building complex of the ’60s. A struggling New Yorker, this writer’s fortunes changed considerably when he met his future wife and songwriting partner, Ellie Greenwich, at a party in 1962. Within a short time of teaming up, the duo had an appointment at Don Kirshner’s songwriting factory, New York City’s famous Brill Building. Ushered into the business by Leiber & Stoller, this duo began writing and arranging for the groups signed to Phil Spector’s Philles label. The smash hits “Da Do Ron Ron” and “Be My Baby” resulted from the time spent with Spector and, by 1964, the duo were an integral part of the staff at Leiber and Stoller’s newly formed Redbird Records. Largely regarded by pop aficionados as the mecca for the “girl group” sound, the staff at Redbird, produced tightly crafted, musically sophisticated songs. The duo also penned “Leader of the Pack,” which became a number one hit. They continued to write hit records throughout the ’60s, such as the seminal “River Deep, Mountain High” and the Beach Boys’ 1969 hit “I Can Hear Music,” their songs changing with the times, but still retaining the essence of their earlier Brill Building days. After the marriage broke up, their creative partnership did as well and while Greenwich went on to become a session vocalist, our guest became a staff producer at A&M Records. Throughout the ’70s, he worked with Neil Diamond, the Monkees, and Van Morrison, among other. Overall, this guest’s credits—as a writer, co-writer, producer, or a combination—extend to a mix of different genres. His song "Out of Hand" by Gary Stewart was the longest-charted country record of its year. He also wrote many other country tunes, including "If It Ain't Love by Now," sung by Jim Ed Brown and Helen Cornelius, who later won the Country Music Association's Best Country Duo award. One of this writer’s most successful songs of all was Olivia Newton-John's 1974 worldwide smash hit "I Honestly Love You," which won "Song of the Year" at the American Music Awards, and, for Newton-John, GRAMMY Awards for Record of the Year and Best Female Pop Performance. While mainly influential to the pop world, this writer’s impact spans throughout all genres and all corners of the music industry. #AndTheWriterIs... Jeff Barry !!Watercolor by: @artofmrw Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was very. founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership

of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram or call 844 for all music. That's right.

It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Hey guys. I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends. and repeat guests on the writer is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys.

He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans, including Christopher Cross, The Go-Gos, Run the Jewels,

John Belly, and John Rye, Mozello, Julian Benetta's Family Affair, Carra DiGuardi, Zara House, Future Cut, Sam Waters, Ruth Ann, Brian, Morgan, and various other amazing songwriters. In fact, they have publishing deals with Kito, Robop, Sophia Valdez, Charlie Brand, Tilly, and more. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know

how much you appreciate Evan's work. Because of him, we have Songwriter of the Year. Because of him, we have songwriter's attitude the album of the year for the Grammy. and now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. BMI is the champion of the creator,

supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to navigate the industry plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers, just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they

still helped me out today. You can learn more at BMI.com. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golland. Today's songwriter in Rock and Roll Hall of Famer has written more Evergreens than we'll ever be able to get to in one interview. Man, a brilliant 40-year career in music, film, and television will do that. He worked on songs like, do-do-run, run, do-run, run. And then he kissed me. And be my, be my little baby. And going to chapel and the leader of the pack.

And I'm a believer. And moving on up. So many, so many. We're not even going to get to them all. But, I mean, we could be here all day because he even helped us. discover fellow legend Neil Diamond, which reminds me, having already been the subject of a Broadway musical, he's about to have more songs than another musical, the Neil Diamond musical that opens this fall. Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, our guest is still creating at

warp speed, and the writer is Jeff Barry. Yay! Now, that's an intro. Yeah, man. How you doing, Ross? Pleasure to be doing this with you, by the moment. I'm stoked. You know, it's always exciting. I was saying before we even started this, that I grew up listening to Brill Building songs and the New York influence on pop music. And to me, this was the music that I was raised on.

And then, you know, what's fascinating about it is that it's really, you and your peers that defined what we think of as the pop music industry. It's really the, to me, that is the difference between, you know, previous to that, you know, previous to that, you have jazz and all the classical, and there's some, you know, there's popular music and there's traditional pop music, but what you guys did was create the song that we still now think of as pop music. So, welcome. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, how does, you know, you were born in 1938 and you still have the energy of a 20-year-old, so you're doing something right. But, you know, tell me about your childhood. I mean, the music that was going on in Brooklyn, New York, in 1938 is not the music you started writing by the time you were 24. So tell me about your childhood.

What did your parents do? Well, my father was an insurance salesman, and he was quite successful at her, actually. He was blind, and so he did everything on the phone. And quite good at it. We actually had a little semi-detached brick home in Brooklyn, And he had a mini limo and Howard, a chauffeur. And my mom had a car.

My sister was mentally handicapped. She's six years older than I am. And still kicking. And so I grew up in a, in a, I was, I stayed out of the way. You know, my mom had it kind of rough and dealing with all of that. Yeah. So I stayed in the background and made stuff up. What kind of music do you listen to in a household like that,

where it seems really hectic? I imagine that that household where you have somebody on the phone the whole time and what your sister was going through, that my envision is that it was a very loud household. No, not at all, actually. I don't remember any real noise. There was a piano. My father would play the St. Louis Blues, which he taught me.

And it really wasn't much music. No one ever asked me that. Let me think a second here. I don't think there was outside music. I mean, I do remember hearing old songs. Just this morning, by the way, I remembered a song I was written in 2009. It's called Pony Boy, Pony Boy, Pony Boy, wouldn't you be my pony boy? And I just remembered that one this morning.

But I think it was because I was attracted to the pony aspect of it. Because back then I would listen to the radio on a Formica top table in the kitchen, listen to the Lone Ranger and all those good cowboy radio shows and the detective shows. and my imagination. I mean, something about radio, which is in podcasts, dramatic podcasts, is really modern radio.

I want to do one of those so bad. I grew up on radio. It would be such fun to do the old... Yeah, totally. Yeah. To do the sound effects and... Tap dancing. Tap dancing.

Anyway. So it was just fun listening to the radio and using my imagination and making shit up, you know, in my head. It's weird. The music industry that we know is really interesting because before World War II, all the music that was played on the radio primarily was live because the musicians would actually record and actually perform live.

So when you'd hear people on radio, it was an actual performance. All in one room. Yeah, and then during World War II, a lot of artists went overseas. It was harder to get people to the actual stations and whatnot, and people started playing records over the air to fill up space.

And that's why we think of why we call radio performances, performances, is because they used to be performances. But after when a lot of the artists had to go away, the radio stations realized, oh, that we can just keep playing this vinyl over the radio waves. And so it really is, you know, when I was saying before, your generation really did end up launching

into what we think of as pop music. It's because previous to that, you actually had to perform live on radio. And then once, you know, as you're, growing up, you start hearing actual music on that was intentionally recorded on the radio. To be played on the radio, yeah. To be played on the radio. When, you know, what kind of music in New York, yes, they had radio shows where you actually

had what you were saying. You know, you'd have sound effects and you'd have drama and you'd have the fugitive. You'd have these series that would go on forever and you'd always try to figure out who the one-hour man is or whatever. And they would tell you all these stories, the Lone Ranger and whatnot. Do you remember listening to music on the radio? No.

I really don't. I really don't. I really didn't... I think I was in high school, teenager, before I really started to hear music and it was doo-wop, you know? I mean... Oh, see, my parents got divorced when I was seven,

and we went from kind of an... nice life to my mother in her infinite wisdom didn't take any alimony or anything so my sister and I and my mom we all lived in the attic in my uncle's home in plainfield new jersey where once again I really wasn't paid much attention to so um see my my take on um what what I have learned is that Alan freed the disc jockey said the words rock and roll on the radio and 1955 for the first time. The first time anyone said those words on the radio. So for me, that's like the cornerstone.

And before the 50s, young people were not a market. They had no money. It was in the 50s. Eisenhower was president. Things got a little better economically in this country. And the kids had an allowance. And they literally had a buck. So going into the 50s, it was the,

breakable 78s and the big bands and Bobby Soxers. Young people had to be satisfied with Frank Sinatra and all that. And coming out of the 50s, it was the 45, the birth of the 45. And Presley taking the rhythms of the South and putting it to songs from Libre and Stoller and other people in New York, the drums, guitar, became the instruments, the lead instruments, you know, drums, bass, keyboard, piano, and that. And that's my transitional period.

Coming out of the 50s, where it all happened. I mean, I wrote my first big hit, which was a song called Tell Laura I Love Her, came out in 1960. But I wrote the basic song in 58. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you're just a kid at that point. I mean, you're 20 years old. Like, did you, were you playing any instruments? You know, it's one thing to be in an attic and going to high school in New Jersey is one thing. But there's something is in the air at that time. Obviously, rock and roll is that. But there's something in the air where a bunch of people who are about. your age all throughout the greater New York area are all choosing

at the exact same time, hey, we're going to write songs. Well, I was back in Brooklyn at that point. Okay, so who says to you, hey, you should write songs? Nobody. I just did it. Where does it come from? I wrote my first song when I was eight years old. My mother was impressed, and she

wrote it down, and I remember the melody. What is it? And it was old, again, about a cowboy. What's the song? Want me to sing it? Yeah, hell yeah. I got a gun and I got a saddle and I got a pony. Very clever, by the way.

I rhymed you, you and you. Perfect. Yeah, what did I know? I got a gun and I got a saddle and I got a pony too. I wish I had a sweetheart. A sweetheart like you. Oh, I got a gun and I got a saddle and I got a pony too. I even got a sweetheart and that's you.

If you got a gun and you got a saddle and you got a pony too, you ought to get a sweetheart. sweetheart. I'm telling you. That's it. And you perform that enough in the house for your mom. It's actually like, hey, I'm going to write that down. And you still remember it. So you didn't just perform it once. Did you have to perform that for your family? I doubt it. I really doubt it. I really doubt it. I was eight years old when I...

Yeah, that's when you force a kid to sing in front of a bunch of family members. Oh, no, no. No, never. when did you actually start writing where you were like I could actually sing this to people outside of the house that was back in Brooklyn probably late high school with do-up I mean do-up was that's poor kids

where we didn't have any instruments and you know we had a lead we had three people in the background which was the cord and a guy at the bottom boat bottom, bo, bo, do do do, do, do, ba-do-de-da-pon. And spinger snaps, handclaps was percussion.

And that's really all we needed. We had all the parts of a record. So that was the first time I really started writing, making up songs. When you have, you started writing, or I guess you wrote, Tell Laura I Love Her, after you graduated high school. at your high school and around that are other fellow

songwriter Hall of Famers, right? Not at my time, no. I mean, Streisand went to Erasmus Hall and Neil Diamond actually went there and I suppose others, but not in my, not in the years I was there. They were a little after you. Yes.

So when Tell Laura I Love her, you finished that song, how do you get a song that you then write in 1958. It's one thing when you're writing songs in high school. It's another thing to get a record label to hear it. And that time, an A&R person was actually an artist and repertoire, representative. Explain how you got, tell Laura I love her, from your head to an artist. Well, actually at that time, I wanted to be an entertainer

a singer. Danny Kaye, I thought was cool. He was just fun and he sang and he danced and it just seemed like a fun thing to do. And a friend of one of my cousins actually knew someone in the record industry who was a music publisher by the name of Arnold Shaw. And as a favor,

to this friend, he said, sure, I'll listen to the kid, and if he can sing, I will introduce him to some record types. So the only thing I could sing were songs I wrote with the two chords I knew at the time. And because he was a music publisher, he was kind of more interested in the songs than the singer. I'm writing a book, you know, and they keep talking about. about let's do a show, let's do a movie.

I almost had like a mini-series on me. But if it ever comes to a scene, it'll be the he says to me, yeah, kid, yeah, you sing just fine, but one of those songs you're playing. Anyway, but he did say something like that. My response was probably, I don't know, I made him up, we're talking about me as this singer here. But anyway, I guess he saw something there.

And he did, in fact, introduce me to, Hugo and Luigi at RCA, who were staff producers. They had an office, their desks were facing each other. And I did make some terrible, terrible records, because they were based on very corny songs. But they were recording Ray Peterson, and they called my publisher, Ronald Shaw, and I was the kid.

I was the kid all through the 60s for some reason. Does the kid have any songs that might be good for Ray Peterson? And I had just finished tell Laura I love her. Interestingly enough, because I was always interested in cowboys and rodeos and that stuff and knew very little about anything else. Certainly nothing about romance, I still don't. Excuse me, wow, what is going on here? I might be the first person actually have a heart attack right.

Oh my God. That would be history. Keep it together. Keep it together. And where about I say? Oh. So, are you familiar with Tell Laura I Love? It's about a kid who wants to get some money for his love

and enters his car in a stock car race and gets killed. That was like maybe the first death song. But originally, I wrote it. The song goes, He Saw Sign for a Stock Car Race. A thousand dollar prize it read. He couldn't get Laura on the phone. So to her, mommy, not. He said, tell Laura, I love her.

And he goes and he enters and he dies. But originally it was he saw a sign for a rodeo. A thousand dollar prize it read. And I sang the song. The kid gets gored to death by a Brahma bull in the original. And my publisher said, gore to death by a brahma bull. Who can relate to that?

You know, and that first songwriting lesson, Oh, yeah, they got to relate to it. So it will kill them in a car. Everybody can relate to that. So anyway, I had made a simple demo. Hugo and Luigi loved it. They recorded it with Ray Peterson, and that was my first big hit. And there were rumors.

I heard something about in England, they didn't want to play it. And I never could figure out what the fuss was about, but they did, of course, play it. And then I realized years and years later, in 1960, when the record came out, The opening line is, Laura and Tommy were lovers. And that was like pretty risque. Yeah.

Kids doing it and they weren't married. Hmm. And, uh, yeah. That was pretty edgy back then. When the song starts to work, um, were you kind of jealous because you wanted to be an entertainer?

Or were you excited because, you know, here's a song that's working? I mean, well, honestly, when he offered me this, he offered me my first songwriting gig, right, for 75 bucks a week. And my financial goal at the time was $10,000 a year or $200 a week. That was big time. That would be big time. My cousin, Stuart, the chemist, who owned a home in New Jersey, was rumored in the family to be earning $15,000 a year.

I think I have to do that hourly now to keep the gates open. Anyway, and so it was quite exciting, though, having a hit, you know, as a writer. And there were other records I got at the time and met, you know, Beverly Ross, for instance. I wrote some things that she wrote Lollipop. Right. Yeah. And I actually had a convertible, old, 50. catty convertible

with black with red leather seats. What did your mom think of all of it? Well, okay, in my family, it was like, oh, poor Ruth. You know, what's going to happen to Ruth and Mitzie now that Jeff's going to be a bum? I quit college.

I was studying industrial design. And so he's going to be a bum. What's going to happen to them? So what happened to her was I bought her home on Long Island and everything worked out just fine. Amazing. I'm sure she was appreciative. You meet Ellie, who you end up marrying

and obviously you end up working with Phil Specter and you go on this run of some of the biggest songs in history. It's one thing to have a hit. A lot of people have had hits. It's another thing to have these kinds of hits. Why did the chemistry work so well with Ellie and Phil, what was it in that? You know, what was it, what was the, what is the magic?

Looking back on it now, if you tried to cast the three of you, why did the three of you guys create such incredible, such an incredible catalog in such a short amount of time? I wish there was a real answer to that because it would probably be applicable but if there was an answer people would probably be able to use that answer to to to uh...

That's what I'm asking. I want to know. Yeah, you know, by the way, asking some really good questions. It's what happens. You know, I, it's, it's, you know, I had hits before and after that time, and Phil had hits before and after that time. And we, we just clicked. And it turned out that, you know, I worked with Phil after, until I just couldn't take it anymore.

Yeah. Oh, boy, he was. He was a piece of work. But the... I mean, not to go off topic. And obviously, he's legendary in all the piece of work that he is and was, you know, it's impossible to ask, because you see the foresight of the craziness in that time.

But what at that time did... How soon did you realize this guy's nuts? Hey, guys, there's a cool company called. Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral financial statements or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs.

They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming, sync, whatever. it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website, or DM them on Instagram, or call 844 for all music. That's right. It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very very very dear friends and repeat guests on name of the writer is Evan Bogart.

Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans, including Christopher Cross, the go-goes, run the jukeers. Jules, John Belly and John Ryan, Mozilla, Julian Benetta's

Family Affair, Carad de Aguardi, Zara, House, Future Cut, Sam Waters, Ruth Ann, Brian, Morgan, and various other amazing songwriters. In fact, they have publishing deals with Kido, Robopop, Sophia Valdez, Charlie Brand, Tilly, and more. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evan's work. Because of him, we have songwriter of the year. Because of him, we have songwriter's attitude,

album of the year for the Grammys, and now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. BMI is the champion of the creator, supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to navigate the industry plus provides invaluable opportunities, on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers,

just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today. You can learn more at BMI.com. Well, the first, if the nuts part came after, realizing he was toys with people and was rude and would take advantage of people like to dominate, play head games

and and then the nuts part was much later, much later, because, I mean, I just wouldn't put up with any of that stuff and he wouldn't pull guns around me. He did do, you know, crazy social things. Like we'd go, he always had a bodyguard.

He wanted to think he needed a bodyguard. Right. And we would go out for lunch with big red, his bodyguard, and he would put red at the table over there. And he would stare at somebody at another table, just like making faces. And finally, the guy would say, what's your problem, you know?

And he would go, And eventually, the guy was saying, you want to step outside and he said, you want to fight? And the guy would go, yeah. And then Phil would point to Big Red and say, okay, fight him. And all his bodyguards hated it.

And, you know, he would just do things like that. And he would come to New York at an office in New York. And Ellie and I would go over there to write. And I would, you know, tell his assistant, you know, call up to the apartment tell Phil we're here. And he would keep us waiting. And he would keep us waiting each time. And I told, finally, about third or fourth time, I said,

look, tell Phil five minutes, and if we don't go up, we're out of here. So naturally, I mean, he's not going to. So we left. And it never went back. And so he had to come to our place to write. We wrote Ribodee Mountain High at our apartment. It's so funny. It's not so different than now as far as the dynamics in writing teams and people who, I mean, Phil Spector's a different level of his dynamic is.

But the idea that you guys could have written that hit anywhere. But you go through this, that drama that you have internally probably created really good music. but you're in this relationship with Ellie. Is it hard? Was it fun to write with your girlfriend, fiance's spouse during all that? Was that healthy for you guys? Sometimes it's really healthy and sometimes it's really not healthy.

Well, basically, it was our relationship. It was more writing partners than husband and wife or romantic partners. It was 24-7. It was crazy, Russ. How much were you writing in that time? Are you writing four songs a day? We were writing with Phil. We had Redbird Records, right?

I wrote and or produced everything on that label. And working with Phil. And Neil Diamond, who Lieber and Stola didn't quite get, so I took them over to my best friend, Bert Burns and Bang Records. So literally, there was very little time for anything else. It's a long story, I won't get into it. But in that time, I was in the studio so much or not at home. and New York City Police Department

NYPD was looking for me seriously they couldn't find me for 10 days wait why were they looking for you well an actor was killed and witnesses said that he wounded his assailant okay and that was on a Thursday and that Thursday night

I was playing basketball with the tokens lying sleeps tonight. And the person I was guarding, the ball was coming to him, and I reached around and broke this knuckle right here. Next day, it went in the office. My assistant said purple and green is not good. Went to the hospital, bandaged it up. And 10 days later, early in the morning,

my doorbell rings. We were in the building in New York. It was called Mayfair Tower. It's right next to the Dakota on 72nd Street. We had the penthouse overlooking the East Ribba. Very cool. And somebody's at the door. You can't get past the guys at the front, right?

Two detectives, badges. Come on downtown. It took me downtown. Anyway, what they had checked was hospitals. so there was this guy with the broken finger and they couldn't find him for 10 days and they started to do investigations. They dug a little deeper.

And they had a big... Do you want to hear the whole start? Yeah, keep going. Okay, so they take me down, you know, wherever the prison was, into the back room and there's a big table. Their names were Blaney and Blaviner. And I have a terrible memory.

Ross, right? Yeah. And they had a guy, you know, taking notes on a stenopad. This was before anything digital. And they had this folder. And the guy, here's how he spoke to me, the one that was doing most of the interrogator. I don't know if it was Blaney or Blaviner. But he said, so, Jeff, what happened to your hand? I said, well, I was playing basketball and I broke the little thing.

And he said, oh. And he has his folder, and it's open, he has his paper, and he said, why did you tell a hospital it was baseball? I said, I didn't tell him it was baseball. It's the middle of winter. Who plays baseball? I said, it must be the name of the injury. Baseball finger.

Maybe it happens to baseball players. And he says, okay, John. Anyway, he says, why did you go to that hospital, Jeff? You had to pass two hospitals. You live on 70th century. Why did you go to a hospital in the 30s? I said, well, because my assistant the next morning, and that's the closest hospital. Oh, okay, Jeff.

So you're a songwriter, huh, Jeff? I said, yeah, I wrote that on the hospital thing, occupation, right? Composer, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm a composer, yeah, I'm a songwriter. Are you in a ASCAP or BMI, Jeff? I said, well, I'm in BMI, and they said, no, you're not. We called them, they never heard of you. Now, at the time, at the time,

there was a life-size cut out of me in the lobby of BMI. And I said, ah, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you who you talk to. And he got to me and he looked at his paper. Oh, I'm forgetting the guy's name right now. Shoot.

Anyway, it doesn't mind. Joe Smith will call him. Oh, no, poor Joe. Joe Franklin. Anyway, I said, you spoke to Joe Franklin, right? He looks down at his notes and he goes, yeah, how'd you know? I said, well, at the last BMI dinner where they give the awards for the most hits in one year,

and I just about tied with the Beatles for the most in one year, they gave him a birthday cake for his 85th birthday. And his job over there is artist relations, whatever that is. It's a cushy little do-nothing job. I said, he doesn't even know who he is. I said, you know, they're probably open now. Why don't you call again and ask, let's say, ask for the month. money department, see what happens.

He says, okay, Jeff, we'll do that. He goes inside and he comes back and now it's Mr. Barry. Yeah, yeah, very quickly. That's funny. And I realized, man, they had all this circumstantial evidence, you know?

And, oh, and I had grown a beard because I'm a lefty and it was my left hand that was in the cast, right? And he's, how come you're growing a beard? Jeff, why is that one of because I can? And shay, okay. And it goes on and on, and they finally realized, okay, they're crossing off all their circumstantial evidence,

and they go inside to the captain. These guys were, I guess, sergeants. And I hear the captain say, okay, let the witness look at him and let him go. I yell inside. I go, oh, no, no one's looking to me. First of all, I had an afro at the time, and they got me out of bed. I made a raincoat. I just threw a raincoat on

I said, no, you arrest me, okay? And then we'll have somebody and they go, okay, okay, you can go. Now, and I had told him I'm a left here. So now it's kind of over and in my raincoat pocket, I did smoke only in the studio by that time. So I took out a cigarette, a cool cigarette.

And I put it in my mouth and before I could reach back in for something to light it with, as I was doing the cigarette, He said, say, you're a lefty, huh? I said, yeah. And he goes, let me see your matches. Now, in the New York Daily News, on Sunday, they were Dick Tracy comics.

And in the Dick Tracy strip in the upper right-hand corner was the police tip. And because I'm a lefty, I remember the following fact. For book of matches, if you're a lefty, the matches come off the left side of the book. If you're right, they come off the right side. So I took out my lighter and I said, well, you know, it's hard to strike a match with one hand. So I use a lighter and I take a puff and I put the lighter away. And I said, but my matches do come off the left side of the book.

Now, the uniform cop taking the notes, he went, so that's the scene and it goes to black. Anyway, that's how... I feel like this was the scene, this is the scene that we... We needed all the sound effects for. You know, the lighter sound, and I don't have a lighter in front of me. This matched the... Anyway, okay, we'll go back to music real quick.

So you're obviously really busy. And at this time, when you own a record label, a lot of the people who were, you know, Amet Erdogan was in the studio. Like these guys, a lot of these people were in the studio actually making records. the people who ran labels were also creatives. And now there's the business side and then they hire producers. But a lot of the people who were, yeah. So this is off topic and I really want to get back to the songwriting.

But one of the arguments I have for giving songwriters points is to say, well, producers didn't always get points. They weren't always given points because a lot of them own. the record label, or they were hired in a fee situation. This is, again, totally off topic. But I'm just curious, when did you see the transition from somebody who, you know, when you were just producing records to when you were being paid and given advanced points on records?

Well, I really started serious producing. I had produced one thing before, one record, before we started Red Bird. And so, I mean, I was an owner, so I certainly wasn't making a deal with my own label. But with Bert Burns, Neil Diamond, there was some percentage when I was recording the Monkeys. There was a production royalty, the Archies, again, production royalties. Most of my producing was done in my own labels. After Redbird, it was Steed Records. And then I had another label with Warner Brothers for a really young demographic.

It was called Rock and Horse Records. And but 67-ish, 66 started. Yeah. It's so fascinating because you, you know, you guys were creating the music industry as we know it, in the way I view it at least. And I'm constantly bringing up to people that just because we're still in an infantile stage of our business, even if we're 60 years removed from some of these records,

where if this is theater, theater is based in some literal 18th century precedent on how theaters make money versus now we're talking about 60 years. Who makes money? The way the theater industry works is based in, as far as art is

concerned, they're still basing some of their law in early 19th century, late 18th century vestiges are in some of those contracts versus our contracts. We're still making it up as we go. So that's why I was asking. But I want to go back, you know, to this unbelievable run with Be My Baby, Baby I Love You, do run, run. Then he kissed me with the Ronettes. Huge. You know, the Dixie Cups, the Chapel

of Love, you know, obviously the Shangri-Laz leader of the pack. You know, that defines a genre. And, you know, it's one thing where you've heard your songs on the radio. And then it's another when you can't turn the radio on without hearing your own songs. You have a place, you know, a brand new building on 72nd Street, and you're, you know, you've really made it. Did you think it was easy? Oh, I think you could stop after, you put the question mark after the word think. I really wasn't thinking at all.

It was all just doing. and it was easy. I mean, I personally have never had writer's block and basically I'm a lyricist. It was funny when Ellie passed. A woman writer for the New York Times wrote her obituary and said how amazing it was that she could capture the feelings of teenage girls.

And I was got to tell her that I wrote the lyrics, but I didn't. But it's lyrics first, and I don't write them, I sing them, so melody is second, and chords's a distant third. That's why I love to write with the Juilliard graduate types, and know all the chords. I mean, I've had chart records that I wrote myself, but they're, you know, three, four chord songs, not that sophisticated. That's why it was such fun writing with Peter Allen, for instance. I wrote, I honestly love you, the Olivia Newton-John song with you. Yeah, huge record.

I mean, that's later. But I guess another question that I think pertains more to my childhood than maybe everybody's listening to this. But what is it about Jewish kids that make good pop writers? Especially that era, you know, it's like... The same thing that makes comedians. Yeah, what is it? What is it in New York?

All the Jews. What is it about? what was it what happened why why did they make i guess we had to have a sense of humor yeah maybe i mean and all those songs have a little bit of a sense of humor well yeah absolutely absolutely i think a lot of people think music has to be serious well yeah that's not my lane i never did serious well i mean the olivia newton johnson's kind of that that's yes well i was i was older that was the early 70s When you did River Deep Mountain High for Tina Turner, or Tina and Ike, you know, you've got,

that's a huge departure from the songs that you'd done before. Well, of all the songs that I were, Ellie and I wrote with Phil. That was the only one we wrote for a specific artist. All the others, we wrote, and whoever was up next got the next song. That's really what it was. But with Tina, we could expand the range. And I wanted to write something a little more interesting, a little more dramatic. And that's what we came up with.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, great record. Tell me about the time, you know, you and Ellie find Neil Dime. At least that's the lore. You're in New York. You see a lot of talented people. You've seen a lot of talented people in your life. He's obviously about as big as you get in the music. you know, pop music history. What was it that he had

that the other writers didn't, that the other artists didn't? For me, it was the songs, him singing his songs. I mean, his if he was just a singer, I would have never signed them.

But him singing his songs had that, him playing the guitar, singing the songs. I mean, I've always believed that great, songs would sound great with one instrument sung properly, that's all you need.

You need more than that for a record, but how many records start out with vocal and one instrument? So there it was. And all the records that I made with him, or we made with him, but, you said, kind of keep

him and his guitar out there and everything else built around that. And that's what the basis of it all, really is. I mean, he's not a great singer, if you know what I mean? He sings his songs. He sings his songs, which makes him a great singer in how we... Yes.

How record makers think of a great singer. It's like his interpretation of songs is priceless. Yes, exactly. And the songs are great. Great songs. Yeah. Great songs. You know, one of his biggest songs that he wrote that he didn't perform is I'm a believer. The monkeys, it's hard to explain how big TV is in the 60s to people now.

But when you have four channels to choose from, that means that at any given time, the least amount of viewership is a quarter of the country. It is like everybody's watching. And the monkeys are so big, they become so big. And it's really, I'm a believer, is really the defining. song for them, at least from my perspective. It was record of the year.

I remember the reruns, but I wasn't there when it happened. That was one of the, that's one of the first songs. That might be the biggest song that you produced that you didn't write. In that, from that

perspective, do you feel the same ownership? Do you, did you, in this era, you would have been considered a writer. You know, now producers get writing credit and writers don't necessarily

get producing credit. Having experienced that, why should a producer be a producer and not a songwriter? What do you mean? Why should... You mean now? In general, I'm still in a mindset

where I wish it were as siloed as that was, where you'd have somebody who could interpret a song. film be a writer of the script totally I mean the song when I work with when I as a producer artist that need to be told I say things like look

don't sing the notes sing the words not the notes trust me your brain and your throat have a deal they know the melody don't sing for other singers think of somebody sing the song to them sing the words that's where the message is that's where the emotion is

and that's going to move your audience and that's where all art to me is about one thing creating emotion and people pay to have their emotions tweet

I mean the poor painters they got to paint a bowl of fruit in a way that not only they want to make someone buy the painting but hang it on the wall in their home what a life that's got to be but

so as a producer that's your job. Like a director has a script, a producer has a song, a lyric, and a song, melody.

And I've always said, I don't know why we call it record producing. It should be called record directing. Right? You have your... That would have been... In my day... Well, in my day,

I didn't have a videographer or a director of photography. I had an engineer. And I had a lead singer. That was my lead. actor. I had my background people, my musicians and background singers, my extras, right? And I had one page as opposed to 90 pages or 100 pages of a script, and I had three hours in a session to get it done. And I had a budget that I was responsible for. I had to make sure all the

musicians and singers were paid properly through their unions. I had the paperwork to do. And that's all that a director is in charge of. A producer is in charge of. A producer. of a film puts people together and raises the money. So I was really directing. I mean, when I was in the studio, I would most of the time be out there with the band and the singers, because I can wear earphones and talk to them.

I had a microphone, and I would talk to them during the take. And once I knew that the engineers got, you know, drums a drum, and we'd work the sounds and get everything happening in the booth. But the hits made out there to me on the other side of the glass. It's not made in the booth. This era is really interesting because previous to 1964, you have all the, you know, you have that, you know, the Ronettes and that string of hits.

But once the Beatles come in, it's slightly different. Obviously, the monkeys are, you know, an adjunct Beatles kind of, you know, it's almost like you know it's the TV show version of it a legit band but it's a TV show version of it you know when you get into

and we still have a little bit more of the 60s but as you get into the 70s a lot of your generation start to release more of their own music you know Bert Backerack's doing some of his music and and obviously Carol King in a few more years down the line starts to do her

own music, her, you know, being the artist of it. In the 60s, though, as you're seeing this transition where people are looking for the Beatles, smartly you end up getting involved in the monkeys, but you do dive into some more of these artists. I imagine that the relationship with Neil Diamond becomes more tangible, because I think a lot of, from the The conversations I've had with some of your peers has been that a lot of them really struggled what to write once these artists started coming in.

But you don't seem to struggle in this. I never listened to the radio. Very early on I did. I wanted to hear Tell Laura I love her on the radio. And then when I started producing, I did want to hear to see if my judgment, as far as the mix goes, worked sonically on the radio. But I never listened to the radio per se to see what's going on.

Quite the opposite. I really didn't want to know. I didn't want to be, I don't like to be, know what anybody else is doing. I don't want to be influenced. I don't care. I want to do what I want to do.

And if, you know, because if you're doing what's out, then you're six months behind. easy. So the great stuff you hear, you can't help it. So I never listened to the radio. I mean, I literally didn't have a radio in the 60s.

I mean, in the car, I might listen, but otherwise, never, never. Didn't care. You close out the 60s with Sugar, Sugar, a massive hit, still a massive hit. That was record of the year. I like to say a record of the year by a group that didn't exist.

Yeah, I mean, how is that possible? Well, I'm not sure. Again, it's the power of TV, but it was, I got a call from Don Kirsner, right, who called me, of course, to do the monkeys as well,

but they're bringing the Archie comic books, Archie and Veronica and Betty and Jughead to Saturday morning TV for preschoolers who at the time I had a three and a four year old and

they said would you want to do the music but in those days and it was true for animation they didn't want to spend money on the music and they would take happy birthday PD melodies and put new

lyrics to it and I said I'm not interested if that's They said, no, duh, that's what we're calling you. Let's make them sound like radio hits. So I don't know what happened. I still don't know what happens. You put out, you put a record out, and it was, ah, well, actually, oh, wait a minute,

the story goes that the radio was like not very interested. And the record promotion guy for RCA took it to a station in Washington or Oregon, one of those northeast places. And he somehow got the label off the 45, which is impossible. But he peeled it off. And he brought it in. He said, listen to this. The guy said, well, that sounds like a hit.

Who is it? So I'm not going to tell you. He said, what do you mean? He said, put it on a decent rotation, which means you're playing. every so often and I'll tell you. So they played it. They didn't say who it was, they just played it. And they got fabulous reaction.

And he said, well, it's the Archies. And it broke out of there. And that's how it started. I just remember that story. That's how it started. That's amazing. And we had a couple of other top ten records to follow up, but

in the wake of sugar. Sugar, which again was R-I-A-A record of the year. It sold more records than any other record that whole year. Second place was, this is the dawning of the day. That was second place. Sugar, sugar. I mean, how crazy. It's 1969.

It's the year of Woodstock. It's the year after the, it's in the middle of the Vietnam War. There's a thought process that when politics, are dark, that's when pop music sells its best. And when, you know, when money's good and it's easy, that's when you get this dark emotional music. It's almost like you need the opposite to entertain you. And so it's, you know, to have Sugar Sugar be the number one song in 1969, the year after, you know, one of the craziest years

probably in United States history, of course Sugar Sugar is going to be the biggest song. You know, of course it's going to be. We just, you just don't, you can't plan it, but of course that's going to be the case.

Well, you see, I was very conscious of most of the, I was writing for young female minds. That's who I was creating. entertainment for. That's who was buying records. So I was writing for 11 to 16 year old girls, right?

Yeah. Who certainly for sugar for the Archies, I'm writing for preschoolers who obviously can't go to the record store and buy a record. So I was always aware throughout the 60s that the parents had to like the music

because they were going to pay for it. And that's, so I think that's part of the appeal and why it's still relevant in some ways or still gets played and used in endless commercials and things is because it was really the sonics of it and the cuteness of it was aimed at preschoolers but the here's an example somebody once said to me jeff you're a smart guy and you're writing all these bubble gum which of course you know how the phrase bubblegum came about from a record called

Yummy, Yummy, Yummy, Yummy, I love in my tummy. Some reviewer called it bubble gum. So anything that was cute became bubble gum. But anyway, they said, you know, you're smocker, why don't you write? And I said, you know, you're right. I was reading something by Rod McEwen

the other day, and it said something about the loveliness of loving you. And they said, that's, yeah, why don't you write that? I said, screw you, that's from sugar, sugar. That line is, you know, in sugar, sugar. It was, so I was kind of writing to the parents at the same time.

Yeah, I mean, I've tried to explain to people that a good pop song is a commercial for whatever the concept is. And the chorus is really the brand name and the pre-chorus is sort of like it's $9.99 for a limited amount of time. And the verses are like, it cleans under couches. It cleans under, you know, it's like, and so when you really are thinking of it in that way, you are strategically aiming for your audience in a really smart. It's just a strategic way.

I mean, but what's interesting is that a year later, you end up with Montego Bay becomes obviously another big hit, but that sounds, you know, the opposite. And then, you know, you have, like that's, that to me, that couldn't be less bubble gummy, you know, but it wasn't for a TV show either. Right. I mean, people say that. It was the first pop reggae record. And I wasn't really trying to make reggae records.

I wasn't listening to reggae, certainly. But you want to hear a quick story about Montego Bay? Sure, yeah, go for it. Bobby Bloom, the artist, and I wrote it. And he would be in my office. And he would play in the guitar sitting up and see him by my desk. And my desk was my rhythm. At the top of the desk was the snare.

and the metallic side of the desk it sounded like a kick. So he would play and I'd be banging on something and I loved it. So I got the best musicians in New York as I do and I went in the studio

I friggin hated it. It had no charm. It was terrible. I junked the record. And I got a kid band, a band of young kids. They went and they were looking around in the studio.

It was kind of had more charm and better. I jumped it. I said, Bobby, something's wrong. Because when you're playing and I'm tapping, I love it. Went back in the studio.

We hung the mic, and we stood opposite each other and just clapped. The two of us, we have the same rhythm loop. And we clapped and sang the whole song all the way through. And then he and I overdubbed every single thing on that record, one at a time. The last thing we do was peel off that hand-clab vocal, and he put his vocal on. And that had the make, it was hand, it sounds like a handmade record, which it was.

That's crazy. If, between that song, and I honestly love you, the Olivia Newton, John, as I always say, I'm always interested in what happens between the hits. Between 1960 and 1970, you have. kind of an endless like there's not a year that goes by that you don't have a hit or at least that's what it appears like

and you're running a record label where you have a leader of the pack and all these songs coming off of your own label but there's a break in the discography there what happened in your life between 1970 and I honestly love

you in 1974 what was your focus Were you just focusing more than at that point on producing? Or were you, what was happening? Very, very good, Ross. Okay, I'll tell you the truth. Came out to, I moved, I came out to L.A. the first time in the mid-60s. And I got, came out at L.A.X.

And there was a palm tree. Yeah. Yeah. And I looked up and this is good. I like this. And L.A. was a small town. It was a parking spot wherever you were gone. It was sun was shining.

And so in 70-ish, I think 1970, made a deal with A&M Records. They gave me offices, all my overhead, and I would produce, I think, three artists for them, whatever I wanted to do. And I was free to do whatever else I wanted to do. And A&M Records was the place to be. It was wonderful. They had offices on LaBreya, the old Charlie Chaplin Studios. And so the answer to your question is, cars and L.A. just blew me away.

And I really lost concentration. I was not focusing. I was having too much fun. I mean, I literally had a home in Bel Air and when the first Honda Accord came out a friend of mine owned the agency for Honda, the advertising agency and he said, hey, if you want one of them, I'll get you on real quick and I said oh yeah, they look real cool. So I ended up and one day I'm pulling up to my home in

Belair and I mean I'm not blowing smoke here I mean I'm waiting for the gates to open and there's my two rolls Rolls-Roy sedans and the garage door opens and there's my Bentley Continental, they only made 19 of, and my Rolls-Royce convertible. And here I have in my Honda Accord. It was about cars and blondes and craziness and the rainbow and LA. And my best friend was Paul Williams. We met at A&M and we were just having the best time. I really wasn't focusing. I was totally distracted. First person to ever realize that there was that three-year,

two, three-year lapse of, it was crazy. It was crazy times. Paul notoriously, you know, it was fun to watch him at the Songwriter Hall of Fame, amazing advocate, good person, very loudly sober and really helps many

songwriters and artists become sober and his parting was pretty notorious during those years I imagine if he's your best friend during those years and during the 70s that it was exactly how you described it when

a song like I honestly love you, becomes a hit. And it's Olivia Newton-John's real come-out party, and she becomes one of the biggest stars of the 70s. Does that help you focus, or does that enable more of the issues of L.A. in the 70s? It was just one of the things that happened. I mean, I had had so many hits as a writer and a producer. It was great because that song,

pointed out to me the importance of the chords. I wrote it with Peter Allen because I was going to produce Peter for A&M Records as an artist. And I had started on the song. And I listened to all of his songs, very interesting, the Tenterville Sadler was the name of one of them.

Obviously, just by the title, you could tell it's not a radio kind of for then, kind of song. And all the songs are interesting, but I didn't hear anything that sounded radio, and that's what it was about. And I had started on the song, and I'll never forget, he was at the piano, and I said, Peter, I started on this song, and I sang him, maybe I hang around here a little more than I should. We both know I got somewhere else to go. And he was at the piano, and to me it was almost like a three-court country song. It could be amazing. Maybe all hanging around here, a little more than us, you know, CGF and A minor.

But he started to play. And I've always said Peter had 11 fingers. He had these chords. And to this day, I can go to a party, and if there's a band, they can play any song I ever wrote except that one. Nobody knows the chords. Anyway, so he started to play. He said, oh, I like that. And I was like, holy shit.

That, wow. And we finished it. And we made a demo. because I knew to record him with those chords, I'm going to need an arranger. It's going to have strings. So he sat at the piano, did a vocal at the same time, and we made a disc, him.

And somebody in the publishing department was going to see Olivia with material for her new album. And they came back the next day and said, hey, Olivia loves your song. What are you talking about? What song? And he said, well, I honestly love it. I said, no, no, no, no.

I'm going to record that with Peter. But then I sat with Peter, I said, look, she's the biggest artist, certainly the biggest female artist out there. I'll leave it totally up to you. If she records it and it's a hit, you're established as a writer, which is so cool. And if she records it and if it never comes out, you can still record it. And if she records it comes out if it's not a hit, you know, that's not going to happen. Anyway, obviously it was Song of the Year. And Grammy, record of the year and all that Grammy performance, too, I think.

But what I believe happened was they couldn't warn her records, couldn't tell her no. Because she was having all these mid-up-tempo, you know, bouncy little hits. to great songs, great hits. And here's this valid, which is, you know, every promotion man's nemesis. But they couldn't say no to her. And I think they said to John Ferrar or,

just, you know, make it like the demo. You know, piano, football, the strings and voices in the background, and done. And they made the perfect record. You know, there are no drums and no bass on that record. I never really paid attention to that.

I didn't either. It was years later I realized it. It's her singing a song she loved. She closed her show with it. Yeah. After that, that's, you know, that's 1974. And it's hard to explain to people who haven't reached their potential yet, who aspire to be hit songwriters.

Money can be an interesting demotivator, and so can success. It's hard to keep your head down. But one of the things that's also kind of complicated, you end up with the theme song of two of the biggest shows of my lifetime, certainly in my childhood, with the Jefferson's moving into family ties and a bunch of these other songs. And one of my services, one day at a time. I just didn't watch that.

I'm just saying personally, but yes. So, you know, when you have songs that are creating that kind of revenue on a literal daily basis when you'd have reruns, weekly basis on new shows, did you find that, you know, when it's really like the quintessential mailbox money? You know, you write these few songs. And unlike the hits that you had before, where they have an arc, a radio arc, these don't have an arc. they just stay there. If it's a hit show, they just stay there. They just plateaus. They're on for years and years. And it's through,

it's 1975 through, I think it was like mid-80s is Jefferson's and family ties is my, you know, 1982 through the rest of the 80s. And then you have reruns through the 90s for both those shows. They're still on.

I mean, is that a, it's something that we all aspire. We all want to have those kinds of theme songs. Now it's a little bit different because everything ends up on streaming and they don't have the same kind of royalty structure and all that stuff. But how, you know, we spoke last week. How much of your focus became television versus radio or is it just, this is just what it ended up being?

Were you focusing on it? It was just part of it. No, no. I got calls, you know. It was wonderful working with Norman Lear. He is probably my last hero. Yeah. He just turned a hundred.

Did you see that? He just turned a hundred years old. Norman Lear, for those who don't know, he's probably the greatest television producer of all time. I mean, that guy did, as you said, one day at a time in Jeffersons and, you know, all in the family and Maude and Sanford. That guy's, you know, he's one of the few that actually really, bright race into pop culture

like nobody else and just what a legend I want to do a musical I want to do the Jefferson's I want to do moving on up the Jefferson's musical now wouldn't that be wonderful? I spoke to Norman about he says oh God I don't

that's a three year process I don't have it but maybe I'll talk to Sony they own the rights really to it were you during all this did you own your publishing? I know you had your record company. I know you did a publishing deal early on.

Were you in a publishing company through most of your career? Or, you know, how was your business run at the, you know, as your career went through it? Poorly. I was, I like to say, pat me on the head and I'll see how rich I can make it. You know, I did not have really good advice and so on and so forth. For instance, his horrible example, the contract between when I signed Neil Diamond to Bang Records, my attorney, left one word out of the contract. The word was exclusive. So when Neil decided he wanted to go to a big label for whatever reasons, he brought the contract to a major law firm, and they found that the word exclusive.

he was not exclusive to bank records. He had to fulfill his contract with them, but he could also record anywhere else. Left out one word. So anyway, my, it was, you know, sometimes I say to you, I wish I was smart as well as, you know, having all the success,

but that would be, I would have a different brain, so I'm not got to complain about it. Yeah, I mean, I'm particularly business-minded for a songwriter and I got to say I always wish that I had less of that and I could just go and be in a studio

write my best enjoy the being fully immersed in the music we gotta get you having some fun there Ross yeah totally I'm with you one other comment before we go to the next segment

when when you have the Olivia Newton John song and you were saying to Paul, your co-writer and you're saying that you know, you can record this song if it's not a hit. That's one thing that our gen. Sorry, Peter. I was Paul Williams. Peter out. If one of the things that this generation misses out on is the idea of covers. Right now, if there's any evidence that a song has been released in any capacity, even on TikTok, it can destroy the copyright

because no one will cut it again. Really? Yeah, I mean, once a song, especially if it comes out intentionally, it's just done. You know, it's just done because people want to be the first to record.

And I don't think anyone cares about that. They just want hit songs. Like Luther Vandross never recorded, you know, there's always covers. Like all of his biggest hits were covers. Covers are wherever. You can make a hit on TikTok. You put out your record on TikTok and you have a hit, you know?

Yeah. I mean, it's just what it is. I guess what's the advice, having seen the industry go from 1960, you know, your first song really writing it in 1958, that's before the Isley brothers even have their first hit. And you see all the changes in the business in the 60s. You saw like contracts missing.

words like exclusive to what it is now. What's the advice you give this generation, having gone through all the feelings that you've had? Well, you should have a team. You need a legal advice. You should have a music business attorney. and the first thing that comes to me is save everything

well I don't know how much there is to save anymore actually but I remember I got a call someone who was doing a coffee table book and they wanted to know if I had my lyrics from the yellow pads yellow legal pads you write the lyrics down and I didn't keep anything and I said see no I'm and I realized

I should have kept everything but who knows that the future was coming and these things would be of value, you know, and I never took pictures. You know, like Phil Specter, Don Kirchner, a lot of people, they have photographers come to the studio. Please, I mean, I'm working, you know, I don't want lights on, I don't want to be posing. It's a distraction. I never cared about that.

But in a way, it's important. Man, when you said save everything, I thought you were going to, you know, hear somebody who had multiple Rolls Royces and a Bentley. Well, y'all, absolutely. I wish I had the cars, for sure. I thought you were going to say save everything. Not even the cars, I thought you were just going to say cash, especially like, you know, it's like that's always the advice that I feel like people give. But I think that that's really interesting, that there's value to the tools that we use,

and especially in an era where people are constantly writing, everyone's writing on their phones. And I was in a session, I was in a session with. with a pretty big artist. We had a pretty big hit, and he wrote down the bridge on a yellow notepad, and I have that one thing framed. Save it. I saved it.

So I was pretty sad. Okay, so next segment, we're going to go five for five. I'm going to list five things. Just tell me what comes off the top of your head. First thing I want to know is how, I guess I was going to say Iko, Iko, was what I wrote it. Because how does somebody write Ico Aiko Ako?

Ico, the basis of it is an old New Orleans parade song. Got it. And I was in the studio with the Dixie Cups, who are from New Orleans. And they was singing that song, and the original record, I picked up a plastic ashtray and a screwdriver.

And I'm playing the rhythm. and they were singing it and then I put on some little base box that I brought back from Jamaica from a honeymoon with Ellie and I went to Jamaica on our honeymoon and that's the basis of the record is it's boom

boom boom in the bottom and the ashtray and them singing this charming little song. It's so good okay next one is the monkeys yeah well the secret is Don Kirshner called me he says that we have to have a

private meeting. And he said, look, we have the hottest show on television, and last train to Clarksville hasn't sold a million records. Disaster. He says, would you want to take over the producing and do the music for the monkeys? I said, sure. And I had this song, of course, from Neil Diamond, and I thought that would be perfect for them. And cut it with them. And there we go. All right, let's go with Neil Diamond next. Yeah. That's an involved question because it all ended up quite ugly when he left Bang Records and Bert Burns died.

And they said it was because he was so aggravated. I don't believe that's why. But the details of that were going to have to wait to read the book. Got it. I will read that. Your mother. Oh, my mother. Very, very busy, very busy lady, keeping, keeping us fed. And it was, it was wonderful to be able to retire her and buy her house in the mid-60s on Long Island and her and her and my sister. And to, you know, take care of her for the rest of her life. She lived to be 95. My sister's still going strong. And it was, very gratifying to be able to give her anything she needed and wanted.

What about Ellie? Ellie, it's almost an arranged marriage in a way. We had supposedly met when I was four and she was three at the wedding of our mutual cousins. And that's the first thought that comes to mind. Well, thank you for doing the podcast. I know there's lots of interviews with you, and I'm obviously familiar with your work. But I always talk about the importance of aging gracefully in the music business,

and probably in every business. You have such a love and passion for creating music, television, all of it still. and it comes from it still sounds like the way you described creating the first song when you were eight you still have this energy about you that's as if you're still creating that first song

you just aren't not jaded by the business the way so many people get you don't look at it like that. You're looking at it as like, how can I create music and entertain? How can I find another way to say the same old thing? Find a new angle as a lyricist. That's the challenge to find a new way to say the same old thing.

I love you. I don't love you. Come here. Go away. To find a new approach to musically but lyric, story storyteller. And that was what's such fun about creating themes. You have 41 seconds to set up the viewer for what's going to come visually after that. And it's still the thrill to come up with the twist, a new way of saying the same old thing.

I love it. Love it. Well, there you go. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.