And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 178: Laura Veltz

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

Today’s versatile songwriting superstar earned her stripes touring with her family band. Originally from New York, this writer spend most of her childhood on the road, playing instruments, singing and writing songs. After the family band split up, she moved to Nashville where she dove into the songwriting scene. It took many years of grinding through the Nashville scene before stringing together this most impressive 5 year stretch. She’s been Grammy nominated for four years running, won a CMA Award, an ACM Award and was nominated for the first ever Grammy Award for Songwriter of the Year. Named Billboard’s 2022 Songwriter of the Year and a Variety Hitmaker in 2020, she has also been awarded four NSAI Awards and presented with the Yellow Rose of Inspiration Award by the Nashville-based Song Suffragettes for her contributions to the songwritingcommunity. In 2020, “The Bones” reached number-one on the Country charts, achieving Top 10 on both Hot AC and Top 40 charts and shattering the record for most consecutive weeks held by a solo female artist after spending 19 weeks atop the Billboard Hot Country Songs chart. The song’s historic reign propelled this writer to become the first female to claim the number-one spot on Billboard’s Top Country Songwriter chart, a feat she held for five consecutive weeks. The global smash also earned her several awards, including the BMI Pop Song of the Year. Her songs have also been recorded by Demi Lovato, Madeline Edward, Kelly Clarkson, Reba McEntire, Miranda Lambert, The Highwomen, Dierks Bentley, Kane Brown, Monsta X, Trisha Yearwood, Little Big Town, Ryan Hurd, Brothers Osborne, Carly Pearce, Mitchell Tenpenny and more. It’s safe to say that this writer is a certified hit-maker who’s work ethic and passion for songwriting have propelled her into well-deserved success.#AndTheWriterIs... Laura Veltz!! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the And The Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about what. of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends

and repeat guests on the writer is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans, including Christopher Cross, The Go-Gos, Run the Jules, John Belly, and John Ryan, Mozello, Julian Benetta's Family Affair, Carri Deeguardi, Zara House, Future Cut, Sam Waters, Ruth Ann, Brian Morgan, and various other amazing songwriters. In fact, they have publishing deals with Kito, Robop, Sophia Valdez, Charlie Brand, Tilly, and more. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow

Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evans' work. Because of him, we have songwriter of the year. Because of him, we have songwriter's added to the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. Hey, guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks.

They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs. They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from mechanical performance, digital streaming sync, whatever it is. If you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties, check out their website or DM them on Instagram. or call 844 for all music. That's right.

It's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties. Call them today. BMI is the champion of the creator. Supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work. More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to navigate the industry plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers. Just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today.

You can learn more at BMI.com. Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's versatile songwriting superstar earned her strides the good old-fashioned way. It didn't happen overnight. She's been writing music her entire life, even started by touring and getting signed with her family band. But it took many years of grinding through the Nashville scene before stringing together this most impressive five-year stretch. She's been Grammy nominated for four years running, won a CMA Award and ACM Award, and was nominated for the first ever Grammy Award

for Songwriter of the Year. All the way from Nashville, this mom knows how to prioritize things that matter, like family and the outdoor human experience. I'm so excited to welcome my first country co-writer. And the writer is Laura Veltz. Are you serious? That's real? I think Ink is the first country song that I ever wrote.

Fuck, that's the coolest thing I've ever heard. Had I known? I was talking to my wife this morning and I was like, I said the same thing. And even Joe, when he walked in this morning, when people wonder why they should get publishing deals, that is why. Because at that time, it was probably 2011, 12, maybe 13,

maybe somewhere. Lifetime. But it was not where this last five-year stretch. It wasn't, you know, I hadn't had anything that was notable really at that point either. And, you know, maybe in the pop world, but not like what came after that. And I think the idea that a publisher puts people together

and introduces them, their job is partially to pitch songs. That's what people think it is. But it's not. It's to make relationships. And I think after that, every time I see you, it's like we just start talking for all right long. We can't.

Always. You know? That is so funny. I had no idea. Yeah. What happened in that song? That sounds good. It sounds so fucking good.

So speaking of ink, I mean, you got lots of tattoos? I do. I do have. When did you get tattoos? It started a long time ago. I was 18. My first tattoo, yeah, my dad actually, like, not suggested, but he is a odd dude. But, yeah, he was like, you should get a time.

I was like, that's a good idea. And then I had an idea for one that, you know, you know, kind of dates as a story that started really early in my life. And then I think it was like every two years since then. And, you know, just holding back the freak for a while and then post-children, post-35, you know, it was like, why are we not doing the thing we've always imagined for ourselves? We've never imagined ourselves with hair. We've never met, you know, I've always imagined myself this way and I don't know why but it just like some kind of switch was like then let's do it

let's do that now why would we not before going to your story and asking on that train of thought do you think that that's why you're having this stretch of songs is because you're finding who you are as a human outside of it? I do I feel like the

first chapter of my career was like learning how to write a song like learning how to blueprint and pick apart only need to put back together like a song, you know, like structure and shit like that. And I think that was like the first chapter was me just breaking my brain about wanting to feel all my feelings. And, you know, in Nashville, there's obviously the trope of like, you got to write for a guy,

you know, learn how to write for dudes. And so I think that was a big part of it. It was like, you can't write for yourself, much less your type, much less the who you are part. So learn how to do it in this very one specific way. and it felt like the most comfortable way. And that worked a couple times, you know. And then in walks Marin, and I'm like, oh, you are, you're something else.

And it gave me a little more freedom. And then by the time 2020 came around, it was just like, well, fuck it. I don't know why. Like, I have so much shit to say. And I've always had so much shit to say. And now it's just all coming to the surface. And I just don't say no to myself anymore. If somebody wants to write something really uncomfortable, I'm so excited.

I get so fucking excited. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. Well, let's go to the beginning. You said your dad's an interesting dude. So, you know, you were born in New York, which is not a hotbed of country music. Where in New York were you born? This is a long story, and I'm going to try to make it cute and short.

But I was born in Albion, New York, which is outside of Buffalo. A month later, I'm going to be. moved to Florida. A short time later, I moved to Alabama. Then I moved to Kansas. Then I moved back to Florida. Then I moved to Virginia. Then we moved to New York. Then we moved back to Virginia. And I, like, I lived in 22 houses before I turned 18. And they were varying levels of, like, living. But we were always in boxes. We were always moving. And the reason for that is really wild and unusual. No, it wasn't like a military family. It was like kind of like a, um, religious zealot kind of gypsy, you know, following God.

Like everything we did was just this like, where's God telling us to go? Which, you know, in retrospect is a really funny memory that I work out a lot in therapy. But yeah, we were a traveling essentially, like varying levels of homelessness. Like we'd live in people's, other people's houses for a while. We'd be, you know, really, really broke. and then my dad would like, you know, score some kind of job or something that would last five minutes, and then we'd be broke again. I mean, it was really, really financially tumultuous. And I'm like a highly absorbent, spongy kind of a person. And so all my feelings were just like,

this is chaos. I don't know what, you know, everything felt like chaos, you know. And yeah, so I think that that's where I'm from. So that's a very long story and a book that I am writing because it's weird and wacky and really interesting. Who drove the religious cellet in your family? Was it your dad or your mom or both? Both of them. So they met in like a commune kind of setting. They were both like saved, you know, in the 70s.

So specific to a kind of, was it Christianity or was it a type? It was very 80s. Like if you can kind of think back on like the Jesus, He Knows Me, Phil Collins, Genesis song. Like that was like the 80s for me. It was like pastel church, you know. Do you remember road trips just like were you guys as a family singing just the entire way?

Yeah. Like we were, we were, my family was sort of, we were all gifted. Like, and truly, like. Who are all the people in the family? My brother and my sister, my parents and me. Everyone had different levels of musical gifts

that were genuine. My dad is a writer. He's a drummer. He's like a preacher. He's like all of the things. And my mom is a singer and she's a writer. And my brother played guitar and he was fucking legit at it. And my sister who is a, we were just talking about her. She's a writer in Nashville as well. Incredibly multi-talented. And I have the same sort of gifts, setting gifts. But we were in such a secluded setting as children like because we move so much. We didn't have community. We didn't have people other than the five of us. So it became, have you ever read The Glass Castle or know about it? What's that? It's a book about a woman who is, I think, the me of her family kind of going like, what's wrong here?

Like, just sort of the belief that we were extra special and that God chose us for this purpose. and really no understanding of... What's to this purpose? To serve God. Okay. It's a complicated one. But like my parents still believe to this day that like they have this purpose

and that society is there to... God, this is so complicated. It's really hard to put into words. But like, we moved a lot because they would make fast friends and fast enemies. So we'd move. move in and be like, oh my God, God, God, Jesus, Jesus, yay, yeah, yeah, yay. And then that's not my Jesus, we're moving.

And then over and over and over again. So friendship wasn't really a big, like, foundational piece of my childhood. Community wasn't a foundational piece of my childhood. It was all like, we need to serve the family, the family. It was all about the family. I mean, not to quote yourself, but it's sort of like if the bones are good, you know, the rest don't matter. So you're in this family, and for sure, your parents are like, it doesn't matter as long as we have us.

And they, you know, my dad's a writer. He's written that song in a different way, a different capacity over and over and over again, because it's how they live. However, I'm finding in my adulthood, you know, there's also the caveat that they were very abusive. So I just want to say, like, they weren't, it wasn't just, yeah. Like, it wasn't just fun and games and alternative life and, you know, nonconformity. It was also like a lot of abuse and gaslighting and really, really misunderstood thoughts around how to build a life. Like if the reason why money was like this, you know, was because I don't think my dad understands how commerce works, to be honest with you.

I don't think, you know, they understand. And to this day, they're, you know, they don't live in their own home. They don't have like they're still doing. it. And I mean, when... Is your success something that they feel like is ordained? Ordained? I don't know how they feel because I'm not a Christian. So I have a feeling that I'm, I think that I'm like, they're waiting for me to come back. I think somewhere in there. And I think that they think that I'm hellbound because I don't identify.

So you don't communicate with them currently? No. Like they moved into my house. I did my one last attempt to save them when I had children. I convinced my husband, like, we should have them move in. And maybe we could just be like one happy, adorable family, and it'll be great. And it just did not go well. Was that trying to sort of parent your parents having gone through? I've been parenting my parents since the day I was born. I don't think they have really good parenting skills.

I'm being really nice here. I'm trying to be nice about it because the therapy that I'm learning that they were, you know, incredibly ill-equipped to parent. So, like, it's a lot. It's a lot to unpack in a funny, short little bit, but it's a lot. When you look at, you know, a state-like, and this is a broader conversation, but a state like Tennessee that is currently going through the idea that you as a parent don't have to be qualified, you know, not to say parents need to, like, more power to

if you want to procreate and it's purposeful. But how does, you know, you live in a state that seems very opposite of your, the way you view the planet. How do you move through that state? I've had so many feelings and conversations about this since traveling here so often and really grappling with it. It is a tough thing to have a daughter in the South. Yeah. It's a tough thing to have any kid in the South, but the daughter component was really the thing that, like, kicked me in the crotch, you know, quite literally. And her crotch as well. But just the feelings around that are really heavy. But I think, like, I'm trying to take the weight of the world. It's hard. When you're empathic feelings are so, it's so you take everything in and you're like, I'm going to do this because this is what's going to fix everything, you know. And I've, I'm learning, like, what can you do, like, as an individual and just be at peace with that's what

you can do? And to be honest with you, this circles back beautifully to the fact that I've built community in Nashville. I have my first family. I have my first friendship group. Like, the idea of being like, I'm out is impossible for someone like me because I already, I've already done that 23 plus times in my life. I don't want to do it again.

Yeah. You also don't have to. And I think you're... You're right that I don't have to. You know, there's not a... It's not an or a situation. It really can be an and or a situation. You know, you can have...

There are pluses and minuses everywhere you live. So it's not really specific to that. I have to say this before I forget, because it's so fun. But I see this shaman, and she's like this adorable, like, lady that just kind of gives you cute advice. about life.

And when I was talking about, I was thinking about like uprooting and coming here. And her like, you know, advice as she crawled into my soul was, she said, go to L.A. to find fire,

to then bring back to the South, to find grounding, to then bring back to L.A. That's right. To find fire, to bring back. And I was like, like, that feels like me. I absolutely love that idea.

Like things we were talking about earlier. like being energy that helps someone be calm is a lot of what I have in my community in Nashville. I think the idea is like you're allowed to be who you are. Absolutely. And in all of these places. And I think that's hard for a lot of songwriters who aspire to be someone that doesn't exist. You know, there, there. Wow.

So I think that it helps, you know, to have the experience of working in L.A., New York, Nashville, Sweden, wherever, Atlanta, because you really can bring those attributes to other places. But your family obviously was tumultuous, but it also brought you into the music world. You know, this is where the story takes another turn is the fact that band, that band of humans becomes a literal band and gets a record deal.

That's a huge jump. from we're singing in a car and we're moving from house to house. There's some structure there in order to get discovered, especially when you were discovered. It's not like there's, you know, a lot of, people aren't getting signed off, you know, TikTok, let alone MySpace, or even YouTube at that point. So explain the jump from we're a traveling family to we have a record deal with Atlantic Records.

Well, at certain points, like we, it was like, just to sum up sort of the beginnings, like ministry, if we can use that word, because I think that's like a nice general word for when a person feels called to help others or whatever. My dad would be in like varying states of ministry. So it's like he'd have a normal person job and then that job would piss him off and he'd go back into the ministry, you know? So right before we started that band, my dad had a normal person job again. We were living in Vienna, Virginia. he was doing incidental music for like the discovery channel and like it was like pretty normal life like I was going to a normal high school like things were normalizing ish and he once again which he has a habit of doing anticipated a more secure financial situation than it was in real life and the company he worked for went bankrupt and boom like we had to sell our houses we had to sell our cars like i was i was planning on going to college you know i wanted to go and do theater like i was i had an amda scholarship i was really proud of like american drama musical blah blah blah

in new york i was so stoked to leave you know then this happens again and my dad has another idea which is just like how we were raised. It's like, we should be a band. You know, you play guitar, you sing, you sing, I write songs, let's just see if we can make some extra money on the weekends, which we did. We played at this Italian restaurant called That Samore. And we paid, I think we were paid $200 a week,

and they would feed us. And when we were this low, that was actually like... It's a big deal. It was a really big deal. And the pressure of that, once again, returning to the pressure of taking care of the family, doing something for the family, Like, if you asked me directly then, like, do you want to be in this band?

My answer would have been, hell yeah. Who wouldn't want to be in a band? You know? But it wasn't my idea. It wasn't my dream, you know, and everything about it. Your dream at the time was CD theater in New York. How old were you at that point? 18, I was 17, 18.

I was working at Starbucks. I was like, I was very fastidious. I was like organized and I was saving money. Like, I was doing it. Like, I'm going to get out. And, you know, dad. convinced us all to do this thing. We played at that restaurant like four weeks. It was like every Saturday for four weeks and by the fourth week it was just nuts. People were like really wanting

to get in there because not only is it the kitsy thing of like, oh my God, this is a family band. We were actually really fucking good. We were a good band. Like my dad's a legit drummer and like we managed to make it sound cool. This is one of my favorite fun facts about myself. My dad bought me a guitar in order to serve that band. I'm left-handed. You can't just like pick up a, he had to buy me a left-handed guitar, which he did, like somehow scrape some money. It was a APX-10. It was a Yamaha, a little bought it. And I don't know how many weeks it was later, but within, it may have been one week. I don't remember. I wish I could remember this accurately, but it was a very short amount of time and I was playing a two-hour show

within a couple of weeks of buying a guitar. That's an insane expectation, but I remember being so terrified. I have a lot of stage fright stuff, and I would turn around on my dad, and I would just be like, I can't do this, and he would be like, do it. I would be like turned around.

Like, it was scary. It was very much like, you have to do this, you know? What are we going to do if you don't do this? Yeah, it's almost life and death for the family. That's what it feels like when you're a kid. At least they made you feel that way. The band was called Cecilia or St. Cecilia, or St. Celia, it had iterations.

But when it wasn't all religious music, a lot of it was secular, which is fascinating for people who feel like they're the vessel for God to create music that is secular, that feels contrarian. at the time, I guess why was it not religious music? I have a theory about this that's kind of odd. My dad was a drug addict in the 70s. He got clean because he got saved. The family happened. And then there was a point where he started smoking weed. And in my head, I have it in my head that his enjoyment of drugs,

was like, and a lot of alcohol. There were always a lot of alcohol in our house, but like it was like a party culture a lot. And I think it was like, oh, I can just write these uplifting songs. I can be like, I don't have to like carry the banner, so to speak. And I think it was like a win-win in his head. Like, oh, I can do this. Like we all smoked weed like as kids.

It wasn't cool. Like the fact that we were like sharing, you know, all. of that. That's a little intense. But I think it was, in my, and it's a theory, I can't say that as a fact, but there's something in me that thinks he was like, I get to have best of both worlds, kind of an energy. He's kind of a, he's a

grown man child. So a lot of this just is, I think, a little bit of that. This isn't a joke, but I almost want to say like, aren't we all? Yeah. I mean, like, there's, that's the hard part for all of us is to reconcile with the fact that we have responsibilities

to our humans that are younger in our family. Yeah. And then we have to at some point make choices that are difficult. Hey guys, I'm excited to say a few words about one of today's sponsors, Seeker Music. Seeker was founded and is run by one of my very dear friends

and repeat guests on the writer is Evan Bogart. Evan is an advocate for songwriters. He is in charge of the songwriter wing of the Grammys. He's a trustee for the Grammys. He's just a good person. And so that kind of community and culture is what Seeker is based on. They acquire only the best catalogs and sign only the best humans, including Christopher Cross, The Go-Gos, Run the Jules, John Bellion, John Ryan, Mozello,

Julian Benetta's Family Affair, Carrey DiGuardi, Zara, House, Future Cut, Sam Waters, Ruth Ann, Brian Morgan, and various other amazing songwriters. In fact, they have publishing deals with Kito, Robopop, Sophia Valdez, Charlie Brand, Tilly, and more. So I recommend you go follow Seeker on all their social media sites, but go follow Evan to and let them know how much you appreciate Evans' work. Because of him, we have Songwriter of the year.

Because of him, we have songwriter's added to the album of the year for the Grammys. And now he's got his publishing company that is a wonderful sponsor for our podcast. So thank you again, Seeker, and go check them out now. Hey guys, there's a cool company called Sound Royalties that was founded about 10 years ago. They provide funding for music creatives without ever taking ownership of their copyrights. All they need to do is see that you have a royalty stream. They don't need personal guarantees, collateral, financial statements, or credit checks. They work alongside publishers and labels, distributors, and PROs.

They don't replace them. Again, all they need to know is that you have a royalty stream of at least $5,000 in a year, whether it's from a can. performance digital streaming sync whatever it is if you're interested in finding out more about sound royalties check out their website or dm them on instagram or call 844 for all music that's right it's 844 for all music to get started with sound royalties call them today BMI is the champion of the creator, supporting songwriters and making sure you get paid for your creative work.

More than that, BMI has an incredible team that helps guide and develop songwriters, shows you how to navigate the industry, plus provides invaluable opportunities on stages and at festivals. Bottom line, they help you with your career at all levels, from those just starting out to the biggest hitmakers, just like they helped me out when I was just starting out and how they still helped me out today. You can learn more at BMI.com.

That's a really good point that parents have to make choices. I think my parents made really interesting and fascinating, but shitty choices for us. Would you have done anything different knowing who you are now? No. Yeah, of course. I mean, I'm grateful for the education. To be honest with you, I was like a walking anxiety ball.

Like, people would be like, are you okay? You know, because I was managing the band. I was, as soon as I got that guitar, I was the lead guitar, like, I'm not lead guitar, excuse me, like, rhythm guitarist. I started writing songs. I started managing. Oh. That you wrote.

I wrote this song called Beautiful Blue. How's it? It's very emotional. It was basically like this shattered dream that I couldn't go to New York. It was like this sad thing. thing that. I was like, oh my God, I wish I could just go to New York. All of my songs all throughout the writing in that band were escapist. And it's amazing looking back going like I was trying to tell my inner child was trying to say, you can leave, you know, but I didn't leave until I was like,

how does this song go? 10 years. Oh God. It's really embarrassing. I'm not going to lie. Like I was so sad. I was I was talking about my high school experience. There were lyrics in there talking about how vanilla everyone is because it's another thing in our family. Villanizing anyone normal, villainizing money, villainizing sameness. It was all that. I was like, fuck you and your whiteness and your vanilla, blah, blah, blah. And then it was like, I want to be in New York where everything is blue. And it was this color thing.

I was like white, blue. I don't know. It was really sweet. Was there like a not like a synesthesia kind of thing? What does that mean? When you see colors when you hear music. Maybe something like that without my knowing. Yeah.

It's really interesting that villainizing people for thinking that they're the same. And I think the mistake that we all make is assuming that there's any pocket anywhere where people are normal and do normal things. And I think we all assume that, oh, there's this place. If you go in the outskirts, those people, they're all. brainwash and do the same thing. Well, no, even in their brainwashed world, there are nuances that make them really just as strange as you are. They may not have the vocabulary to describe their weirdness or they may not have the experience to explore their weirdness. But that weirdness is

just there in every human. Yes. And I think we all just assume that there's this, you know, especially in music where you think that where somebody says like, you know, like we're wizards and their muggles. Yeah, yeah. Totally. And it's like, I don't know that that's like, I don't know if muggles exist. I agree with you. I think that the generation coming in. I want to think that there are, but there aren't.

I know. I think that's just a way of saying my club's the best club and I just, I don't want to be in a club. Like I spent my whole childhood in a club. Gross, no thanks. But all that to say, I think the next generation has this fucking lit in a way that I am, The generation coming in, the 18, 20-year-olds right now,

their whole sameness difference thing that is just defined in a cooler way. I'm like, I'm on their team. Like, this is just, we're all something unique. And that's it. It's like the Lizzo generation. I'm just here for it. So you manage this band, this family band,

into getting a record deal. What's the, you know, people coming and seeing your band, and this is an era where people, an A&R person, could actually experience a band and say, you know what, I'm going to sign this because there wasn't the analytics the way people have now. So it doesn't matter that it isn't viral per se. But how does someone get discovered at that point?

For clarity, like I managed the band much, I managed the band after we were signed, after we lost our management. So let me circle back. My dad was doing everything. He has all these pockets of friends all over the country, mostly Christians that he prayed for or stuff like that. So he would just call.

Like I remember we went to Nashville for a week. It was my first time in Nashville. And he called all these people to get us to play here, here, here, here. And by the end, we had offers. Like, we had offers. And it was within a couple months of those shows at the Italian restaurant. Like, it happened really fast. And he had it in his head.

I mean, there's some really funny articles about his perception, like, of what was going to happen to us. He had this just grand, really grand view of us taking over the world, you know, and it being like, I'm going to be batting away deals, you know. So cute. It's really sweet because a lot of us think that, but it's funny to see a grown man. Say it. Yeah, it's weird. But, yeah, look up articles. It's easier to say it before you have kids.

I think once you are, again, are responsible for kids. kids to then say that as like is a you know it's obviously strange it's strange perspective you know he was basing it on the fact that we were good which we were and i i think that's really charming i think that it's a little dense not to take a pole with your kid like do you want this you know that's a little dense but i mean my dad is he is he like no he's your average like he was probably like he was older than me when i mean how let's see my mom was 30 when i when she had me so they were like They were like 48, 50 years old, and this was all happening. 20-year-olds.

No, they were full-on adults. Yeah, grown-ups. So he wanted to be signed out of New York, and literally it was just a locational choice. He's like, we're not a country band. New York's better. New York's whatever. And so somehow we managed to play for Craig Kalman, which is just LOL to me. To this day, I'm just like, this is fucking hilarious.

But we played, you know, there was a lot of stuff said that my dad took very literally. which I think is sort of like a company line but I don't think he really understood that like they let us play longer than we were supposed to but that's always kind of a funny thing that I've heard that all over he said something like you know I really believe Craig Coleman said like this is the kind of band

where you know there's going to be box sets at the end of it like this is going to be like a career band and you know went straight to my dad's heart you know I have a funny story related to the way the way our perception worked at this moment. Like those meetings were celebrated as though we would never have to lift a finger again, never have to carry our own gear.

We're never going to hurt for money. We're never going to have to sell. And like we're done. Like a record deal was doneness. You know? That was the goal. So that was, I mean, that's a mistake again that everybody makes.

The perception is that you get signed. I mean, everybody I know who had their first deal had that in their head that this was the deal and you're trying to explain to people. No, no. This is the beginning. This is the hard work. This is like the actual step one. You got drafted to the minors.

You have to work your way up to the majors and then become an All-Star and then become a Hall of Famer. But you get signed into the minors. You don't get signed into the All-Star team. Yeah. And so as soon as some of the things, the bait and switches that happen, especially in the late 90s, early 2000s of like, you know, we wanted to be this. We think you have so many hits. We need you to write a hit. Like those switches that happened to all of us, it's not like that.

Now that I've been in the business long enough, I'm like, I don't know a person that isn't told that to, but my dad took that really hard. That you signed us on these songs. You thought these songs were it. And now you want us to write more songs. Why would you do that? And then my sister and I are 18, 20-year-old. girls at this point younger than that. My sister was 16. Like, taken out of high school for this. Like, again, great decision. You know, not a great parenting decision, but like, they were young and we're, you know, cool and interesting. And the label wanted to bring us forward. And my dad was horribly offended that me and my sister would be like the lead. And so every... Was he the lead as a drummer? It was more like he wanted it to be the family. He just wanted. He just

wanted it to be like it's all of us equally. And every time anyone would bring attention to me, he would get really jealous. Every time he would, someone would want something to be done a way that he didn't envision it. He would just get really upset. And I think that, you know, just jumping ahead, like, we played with them for a little while. We never released a record. Like, it was just constantly kind of arguing, switching managers, like the whole thing. And eventually, like, like we basically asked to get dropped because he was just like, I can't work with, you know, but it was the same energy of like my whole life. I love you. You're the best. You're the greatest thing. I hate you. I'm leaving and we're done. You know, like I'm just so used to that as as like a

retrospective view of my parenting, like who parented me. I love you. I hate you is a real big thing. So we left the label and that's when my managerial like I had to really. figure out how to keep us going in this way. Like we were busking. We were playing on the street in New York. And we were like going on tours where we couldn't afford to come back. I mean, it was really terrifying.

Like I can, if I really let my body, like, remember those times, it's scary. Like, I can feel it going like, we're stuck. We're stuck. What are we going to do? You know, and my dad's just like, hey, man, school. you know, and then yelling at us and, you know, it'd be one of the other. We'll figure it out.

You need to figure out. We'll figure it out. You need to figure out. Well said. I think it's that. And so I had this belief that if I could just like figure it out, everything would make sense, you know. And so I did nothing, but I didn't date. I didn't have friends.

I literally spent my entire life going, I'll figure out how to do this. I will make a this. We'll do this. We'll go here. and like I remember my little clipboard like my little fucking you know three ring binder of like ideas and thoughts of how can we get this band on the map

because if we don't my family's fucked like that was my whole you know world how did you get out? I met a boy named Adam who is to this day like someone I look back on that like saved my life

he and I were not one of your yodas He was, but he was also my first husband. So I met him. He was working on Wall Street. He, like, made a lot of money. I was literally living on somebody's couch when I met him. We would go on dates and I'd be like, I don't know if I like you, like you, but I, like, love you somehow, you know.

And so my first marriage was a whole lot of, I don't like you like that, but I love you. Like, we're still very, very close friends. And he just asked me some really casual questions that made me go, huh. He just said, can I ask you? And he was real soft. He's still, very soft spirit. He was like, can't ask you an awkward question? I was like, sure.

And he was like, why doesn't your dad have a job? And I was like, how dare you ask such a, like I still had the Kool-A. Such a clear, short, concise question that sums up my childhood. Everything. How dare you ask? How dare you ask this question? My dad's a genius. My dad's a chosen one.

My dad's this, blah, da-da-da-da. And he was like, okay, cool. And all of a sudden the wheels started spinning, like, I have to get out of this. And I think I was 26 when the lights really went, oh my God, if I don't get out of this, I'm going to be stuck here forever. And so I started winding down subtly. Because if my dad, if he knew what I was doing, I think he would have, well, he was very mad at me a lot. But he would have been very angry.

Were you guys all living together at that point? We lived together when we first moved to New York and then it was varying bits. It was all varying bits. My sister and I lived together in New York. You guys at some point were like, we're going to not live with you guys. We're not going to live with you guys.

Yeah, but I mean we were the ripe age of like 2021 when those decisions were made. So yeah, it was late. Everything was late. My brother had a baby, which made the whole like, we need to kind of have. I think he was like 22. Shit.

So he had to take care of two families. Yeah, too, yeah. So we all split up in New York, but then me and my ex-husband, Adam, got together and he was very active in helping me manage the band, but also manage my exit. Like, I don't know how to explain that. He's like weird. But he really saw a lot. He saw a lot of the abuse. He saw a lot of the, my dad would just rage.

Like, he was just, he's Italian, and that's no excuse. I'm not saying, like, oh, hilarious. Because I used to say that, like, oh, Italians, we're just hot-blooded people. We yell, you know, and it's like, that's horseshit. You're yelling because you can't control your emotions, you know. But it was a lot of yelling. It was a lot of, like, how could you leave us, you know, in this, you know, situation? So it was all like...

Did you have to learn how to communicate and not like that? I remember the day I chose to stop communicating that way. And I failed when I would drink. I would get drunk and I would start raging. But like 22, 23, I started deciding I'm not going to yell at anyone anymore. And I'm not going to be... Do you drink now? Not that much.

I drink a little bit for like celebratory stuff. I love dirty martini. Dirty gin martinis, which is like the most alcoholic drink to want. But once you get in the habit of communicating what you mean to say and not what you feel, then you probably can dabble without the... Totally. And it isn't every time, but back in the day,

it was like, we all drank quite a lot. I mean, it's L.O.L. When I think back, I'm like, oh my God, we were all alcoholics. That's insane. Like, it was an every night event to just drink until you basically passed out.

But, I mean, when you're living with that much stress, there is a little bit of like, well, yeah, sure. I'm sorry. I'm jumping around a lot. All of that to say, I figured out how to stop yel at least most of the time. And then I figured out how to moonwalk out of my role in that band.

And I had to ask myself, like, what do you want to do? Because Adam, who I married at this point, just quit his job on Wall Street. And he had, like, some money. And he was just kind of like, what do you want to do? Like, we were like besties. It was really cute. It was like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I don't know.

I was so upset because everything in my life was so beholden to this group. you know but I was like I think I really enjoy writing songs and that is it and I called a woman that was an old family friend from Nashville and I was like I know this is a job you made it a job I know you're like fine who's that her name's Kai Fleming okay she's in the hall of fame she wrote for like Linda Ronstad and like how did you know this Christian family like we have all these pockets they're all over the fucking world like Christian family to this day where people are like, oh, I'm friends with your parents. Yeah, I get reached out to all the time like, oh, I'm buddies with your dad.

And I'm always like, well, how much money did he get out of you? Because he's kind of a con artist. I mean, he's a little bit of a con artist. What did they say when you ask him? They think he's like the most wonderful thing that's ever happened. Yeah, because that's what kind artist is. Yeah, it's exactly right. But Kai was really wonderful and gentle and said, if you like co-writing, you could make songwriting a job.

If you don't like co-writing, then, because my dad was so fucking hateful about having to co-write. So I think she kind of knew that that might be my problem too. And I was like, I want to try it. I want to try it. And me and Adam just jumped in a car, drove to Nashville, and I wrote with a couple of her writers and a couple of her artists. And it was one of those like, I know what to do. You know, like weeping in my car, like so relieved that I knew that I could. Yeah, that's really interesting.

so relieved. And then I left. And then they followed me. But anyway, that's another story. They followed you because you had a good idea or they followed you because you were starting to make money? I don't want to crawl into their heads and make that decision for them. But I think a little bit of both. And I think like, you know, being near family, again, their community just disappears. It falls through their fingers so often that I'm sure it was just like, well, we don't have that. I mean, again, this is so funny how much we're going into detail here, but when I left, I knew my parents would be homeless again. I knew that. And lo and behold, they lived in their car for a long time after I left, and at 28 years old, I had to go, you can't turn back

because you'll be their caretakers forever if you don't say you're on your own. That's when you moved to Nashville. You know, there's this idea where you're born with taste, be done with the talent necessarily to get to the taste. And that's part of where a lot of professionals, they know where, they know how good the song is supposed to be. And they get frustrated that the songs that they're writing don't sound like the radio or they're frustrated,

they don't sound like hits. Even now, it's not like every song we write, sounds like a hit. And you're like, why is this not a hit? I know the concept was good, but what is missing here? And you just don't hit it all the time. And you hope that as you get further, you start to hone in the skill set that allows you,

the tools that allow you to capture the taste that you have. By the time you moved to Nashville, you were somebody who aspired to be a musician with many years of experience. It wasn't like the people who moved, move to Nashville or L.A. who want to be famous but have to go through, or sorry, successful. It depends if they're artists or a writer, but who they aspire to be a professional with out the skills yet. Part of what makes a publisher, a good publisher, is that they can help facilitate

an experience where they can learn that skill set. Yes. But you came in with more of a toolbox than most people who had just arrived. Who on the publishing side first started seeing, oh, this person isn't just somebody who moved to Nashville because they want to be in country. This woman only knows how to be a songwriter, which at the time was probably correct. Yes.

I don't know what other skill sets you had. Were you divorced with that or did he move with you? No, we stayed together for a while. That's a whole other kettle. But he comes, fish. It's a weird saying. It is. He comes with you to Nashville

and like what's the difference between okay I'm responsible for my family. I have to make this choice. Now I'm oh wow I'm an individual. That was that I can say for sure

and I've had so many I want to make sure I circle back to all those questions because there's great answers for all of them. But like, when I moved to Nashville, I think I was experiencing what most people feel when they go to college. Or let's call it high school. Like even just walking around a high school and going, hey, buddy, friend, cool, see you at the thing later.

Like all that weird, like social stuff that comes with just being with others started when I was 28. Like, I don't think I experienced anything like college, anything like high school even until I moved here. Like, I made so many friends in such a short period of time. Like, me and Adam, who, again, worked on Wall Street, so he had, like, some money to, like, fuck around with for a little while. And he was just having fun. I was having fun. Like, I don't know how we managed, but, like, it was like, let's just buy a house. Like, you have some money.

You should buy a house. and we should just live in it, see what comes of this, see what comes of you. Like, let's just be creatives. And one of the contributing factors too is that in New York, everyone is so, this sounds so mean, but it's really just a, it's a money thing. Everyone is so old because no one can afford to fucking live there. Nashville at that time was literally just teeming with youths. You know what I mean?

Like all of our friends were like 20 and 21, sweetest kids ever. like come over we'll make you pasta and then we you know everybody would just like dance like the kind of things that just come with being like youthful youthful and I like I came alive when I moved here and moved to Nashville I like came alive I was like oh this is living this is freedom you know and man it was just the best time and I think the to circle back to one of your questions one of the greatest skills I brought to my career was enjoying myself. Most people when they move to Nashville are like, I just got to get on the board. I need a publishing deal. I want to have a hit. And I was just like, this is so fun. You know what I mean? I was just having so much fun.

I somewhere in me was like I'm driven because I always was because I had to fucking manage you know children you know all growing up but like my managerial skills really came into going like oh you should you know get a job you should totally get it you should bartend let's bartend because then you can make some money and then you can do it at night and then you can write songs during the day with your buddies and like I was fully aware that nothing would gel for a long time Kai told me that she's like just write another song like don't think about it just enjoy and i was like okay you know enjoy the process yes yeah and at that point your your past allowed you to enjoy the process

without worrying about the results especially because you had there was some at that point some stability financially you could do that that's without a doubt that's the dream it is the dream and i thank adam for that all the time we talk about it a lot i'm like man you just totally fucking save my life. And all of that fun led to four or five years of bartending and writing songs with this band called Eden's Edge.

Literally, and I feel like, do you know who they are? No, okay. Kai was like mentoring them at the time and they're from Arkansas and they were just these sweet kids that I loved. And I was like, my band, the infighting in my band was so hellacious that like this felt

like nothing. I was like, oh my God, You'll work it out. That's adorable. But they got signed to Big Machine after the four years and to circle back to your original question the person I met I met through just hanging around with that band.

So Mike Molinar who is now the head of Big Machine music and beyond because it's in so many conglomerates now but like... We're on the NMPA board together. He is a fucking star. He's amazing. He was writer managing out of Nashville which is like

interesting. At the time, that was really revolutionary. Yes, it was. Very unusual. We were at a dinner with the band and he and I just kept talking and scooting closer and closer to each other because I liked the way he thought and he liked the way I thought. And he was like, do you want to meet? And I was like, yes. And he was like, I have not heard any of your music, but I think you're, I think you're like a world-class songwriter. And I don't even know why. And I was like, well, cool, you know. And at that point, I had written one song I thought was good, literally, after four, five years of me thinking, like, these are really, it's called Liar.

Did it ever come out? Yeah. With Eden's Edge, they cut it on your first record. And I was like, that's a good song. That's a good song. Everything else was like trying to, like, I was learning. It was the taste versus the skill set. 100%.

First song, I was like, wow. Four years and you're like, I have one song. Yeah. And then now it's like, that. ratio changes. But anyway, keep going. So that one song, he hadn't even heard it. We met the next day.

He's like, I just think you talk like a songwriter, you act like a songwriter, hearing your story, you have all the skills. And the ones I think he was really acknowledging were like, you know how this business works, you've been signed. You know how difficult labels are. You know how challenging it is to be in a band. You know bands break up. You know, like all of those little details you learn from just being in the, you know,

the soup. He was like, wow, yeah, you come with all these. So then he started hearing my songs, and I think that was like a really foundational piece of the business he made because I've been working with him since the very beginning. I signed to BJ Hill because Mike had, like, he was a writer manager, and there was no money in that, and I was getting really tired of bartending. In retrospect, I wish I had waited one more year. year.

If I had just kept working for just one more year, I would have had the deal I really wanted, but I didn't know that. It's like hindsight. That's a really hard place to be. That is not a, that is not real. That's not real. That's not real. That relationship with Warner Chapel is help move everything else along.

It did. But you know when you find your champion, like you're a publisher now, like I'm sure there's someone who's just like, and then I met Ross. And everything felt right. Like, Mike was always that. And I saw, he was the first person I met. And my instincts were right about him, but I was just a little eager, is what I mean. I was just eager to, like, get on the board and have a publishing deal.

And I loved my time with Warner Chapel. They were, I learned a lot from how a big company works. I also learned I don't like being in the big company. I really liked this small setting. So I learned a lot. And, you know, I had two number one songs with them. One and number two, but they pay the same. So I had two, like, two hits with them before I moved forward.

In this segment of what would BJ Hill ask, Laura Veltz, he did ask. You're amazing in telling stories while using words that are perfectly flavored to fit the hook. Is that something you focused on or something that comes more naturally to you as a lyricist? I think it's both. I mean, I feel like I've always been obnoxiously detailed about feelings. But I do think that's something I've honed. But, I mean, circling back to a little beautiful blue, my funny little song about New York, definitely it was in there too.

So it's always been in there, I think. You know, you get signed in 2012. 2011? God, I don't know. Okay, something like that. I think 12. I mean, we get signed around the same time for Warner Chapel 2.

I think I was like, you know, a year before that or something. You know, so it was that one writing camp where they brought pop and country writers together. You and David Hodges. I love it. Shout out David. Also in Nashville now. Yes.

It really wasn't that long until you had a number one song. It was obviously written. early enough that you feel like you should have waited a year. Otherwise, you wouldn't have that. That's an interesting point. The song comes out, you know, comes out drunk last night by Eli Young. Is that the,

how did that moment feel for you as an individual? How did it feel for you in your relationship and how did it feel for you as a daughter? It was a tremendous, relief that I was right, that I could do this. And it was also that funny thing that songwriters do where it's like, I don't deserve to be here. I'm everything that ever happened to everyone. Like we're the, you know, like the ego trip of like, I'm a piece of shit, like the imposter syndrome. I think it's a nice combo. I felt really, really proud that I'm female. And then I wrote a song

for a, like that was my goal. Like to figure out how to write a song. song where I still feel there's a level of integrity that I could stand behind, but then it's still kind of like, you know, a song that fits in the format, which is a tricky thing. It's tricky in country, like to be poetic and to be really pedestrian. Like, the combination is really interesting and I feel like I nailed that. And I was really, I was sure about that song. I remember playing that song before it got recorded and just showing the demo to Mike and saying, like, look, if this isn't it, then my nose is off. If this isn't the thing that I've been trying to do,

then we need to reset how I'm hearing country music. And lo and behold, it was like, no, I was right. That felt really good. Yeah, I mean, with that and Chris Young, and these are like kind of the beginnings of both of their careers too. It wasn't like at the time those hits aren't with the biggest artists in the world. Those artists became some of the biggest in the country because of the work that you were doing with them.

and both those things are probably the two most valuable things you can do as a hit songwriter is either reinvigorate somebody who's gone, who looks like their career is done, or you bring in the heat in the beginning and you create their journey. But it wasn't like that it was super easy after that. It's not like you had a slew of, like the slew of cuts and hits, you still had a couple years of really grinding through it. it's like it's one thing when you're giving the hit and it's another one is to take it away

you know to not have the hits for a couple years after that the late great Allie Willis when we had her on this and she was you know she's like oh it's not the it's not the years of the hits that's when everyone asked the question it's the years where you don't have the hits and then you write the stuff yeah why did it why did you take the why the career step in a way backwards for a couple years. It feels like there should have been a lot of momentum. What happened during that time?

I've asked myself that a lot. And I ask myself that at intervals that are equally like, hmm, that should have rolled out a different way or whatever. But then I, in the same breath, I'm like, I don't know. Like, music is so fickle. And maybe it's because I start. started, you know, flapping my cute little creative wings and started going like, there's more for me. Maybe that's when I met Marin. And we started investing time in each other. Maybe that's when I started

like asking myself what I wanted to say because like I love drunk last night, but that's not what I want to say. And I love lonely eyes. And I'll be honest with you. When I think about some of the way that song was written, it is like something I wanted to say. I wanted to be like, more interested in the details of what a woman was doing rather than just cool shorts. And I like what I did there. That was maybe the first taste of me doing something that I was like, this is more unusual,

this is a unique slant, and no one knows but me, because it sounds like, you know, I'm playing a little game when I write songs all the time. Like, would I want this to be said? Do I want this to be heard? Is this going to be helpful? It's just hard to have that. so hard to have that confidence

even if it comes second nature it's still not easy to be to know what the what you think the industry wants versus digging your heels in and being okay with the consequences of being yourself you earn that right though don't you think

it's like in the beginning it's like you don't have a platform to yell anything from if you don't take a minute and play by somebody else's rules and it's like I did that. I did that for a little while and then all of a sudden it felt like I had a little bit of bandwidth to like say something new. I also feel like my like childhood mismanagement of money, which I find this is my pantomime childhood. This is what that means. She's doing a hand roll and doing a

hand roll. For those of you've heard of listening at home. And I keep doing it. But I think that that really informed how I handled the first two bumps of good luck that I had financially, and they were to run screaming to a financial advisor so that I could live knowing I wasn't fucking it up. And I think that some of that, like, I am not like a big spender. I'm not like, I've become a little bit more comfortable with that stuff. But in the beginning, it was just like, absolutely not. I am, every bit of this is going to making sure my life doesn't go backwards, you know. And so I think that that informs some freedom. The opposite can happen also.

All the time. Well, if you're somebody who's raised with money and then you go to a financial advisor and you're raised to think that that's how you do things as well, it's like you still, you know, it's hard to be in a situation in life in general where money isn't a bad word. Yep.

You're saying it. Exactly. You know, you treat it one way or the other, but if it gives you the freedom to be a better musician, that's a win. Well, lucky for me, I found somebody whose whole MO is to mitigate worry so that people can stay creative. Tracy Hackney is the guy I'm doing this podcast with because I want his, like, his teachings to, you know, go throughout our little community because it's really nice to have somebody who gives a shit about making sure that people like us can keep making things.

And, I mean, he didn't give me all that complicated of advice, but, But those beginning stages were just like, put this here, put this there, hold on tight, keep doing your thing, enjoy your day, enjoy your day, enjoy your day. And I listened to him. So I think some of that freedom comes from me not buying a boat with my first hit, you know, and then finding myself in trouble. I never got in trouble, like ever with money. I've always been really like, I want to feel secure.

I want my life to feel secure. When you think of Marin and her career, it's that first album that launched everything, a lot of it was with Busby, a lot was with you and Jimmy. And, you know, there was this crew of people who are familial. You know, she obviously gravitated to a certain type. Your relationship with Jimmy became, you know, and Marin is really kind of solidified. and you could have walked in and done a bullseye target session and then walked out and that would have been fine.

But you developed these relationships with both of them. Did you know right away that this was something that you wanted to dig in further? I mean, those are separate people and I've had equally like profound feelings of that when I met Marin and then equally when I met Jimmy. Like, Marin, you know, Ryan heard was like, you gotta meet this girl, Merritt. Like, he's been my friend forever. And she was on my books,

and like, I just went to a show and I saw her and she's like this little pint-sized thing with this gigantic guitar. And we were writing like the next week, and I was like, whoa. Like, I immediately knew if there is a version of country that I want to be a part of, it is this.

It's like the Adele of country. It's like a standalone type of country. I don't think it even fits in a column. She's just her. And she's spunky and she's interesting and she likes to say things that make people go, what? And like, I love that, you know, ethos. She's pretty, she's fearless as a writer and as and as a human, you know. And she's willing to stand up for things that I, you know, would stand up for myself. And when I can be in like, the wake of that is so thrilling. And I've told her and I've said this a hundred times, but I would literally walk through fire for her.

I believe in what she believes in, and I always feel like emblazoned to, like, support her and uplift her and make sure she has the songs and make sure that she's, you know, best of the best, like the way that, you know, she deserves. Like the platform she's earned, I believe she deserves it. And I just, the quality of the music is always high, no matter who she writes with, no matter what she does, you know, this work with. And God, I just, and she's also my, you know, my buddy. I love her.

family friend, you know. And then Jimmy is a totally different subject. I remember knowing Jimmy was like this golden boy in the beginning, you know, where he was just like, hit, hit, hit, hit, you know, and I didn't even care about that. But somebody told me about the way that he writes that he's fun and stupid and silly and dorky. Have you written one to me? Yeah, I love you. He's like a dork. Then it's the greatest thing. He's like a total little bro. And I went on this trip to Mexico with the Big Machine family and knew he was going to be on the trip. And low-key, I was like, I'm not here to meet these artists. I am here to see if Jimmy and I are going to bond, you know?

Because I knew, I just knew we were going to be really compadre-level, like, coworker. You know, I knew we were going to work well together. Well, that's convenient because in this segment of what would Jimmy ask, Laura Valson, and the writer is, he has a slew of question. Yes. We'll just try to keep them short. Oh, man. Here it comes.

We're going to just go down the list. How do you stay inspired to write having written so many songs? Living. Why are you so good at making bread? Because I like giving it. Why didn't you bring bread here for me? It's a side question, but we'll get to that later. Because I was in a hotel, and if I was in an Airbnb, I would have done it.

Okay, cool. What do you do when the wave of the music being made in NASS? Phil steers away from the music you like making. I make what I want to make. How do you pick which artists and writers to invest your time and heart into? Levels of vulnerability. Is Jimmy your favorite person?

Close. He said, I'll settle for a co-writer, but a person has been able. Pretty close. He is one of my favorite people. With so much massive success under your belt, what goals do you still have? What gets you out of?

bed in the morning and into the writing room. I think this is so serious and I don't mean to be serious, but I do think like we're living in a much more obvious broken world. It's just broke. There's a lot of stuff broke. And I feel like, you know, artists and writers and people who create are like tone setters. And I like the idea of like listening to the wind and trying to figure out what we all need to hear. and put that into simple enough terms to, like, inspire someone to be kinder or, you know, take a chance or stand up for somebody or, you know, help change somebody's tire.

I just really like the idea that we're here to help. And that's my favorite thing about songwriting. What's your favorite uncut song? I like that question. Oh, my God, there's so many. I think that's the thing. There's so many. I think you just said it right there.

You don't have to say the one. There's... Yeah, you could... We could have a whole podcast on that subject. I sent a song to an artist last night. And it's with an existing female vocal as a duet. And he was like, I love this song. Do you think she'd be interested?

And I hit up the artist and she said, let me talk with my team, whatever. I love this song. I'm not going to say what it is because if it ever comes out and it ever works, what's amazing is that song, the numbers that are next to it, looks so random because it ends. It's like 10, 8, 13.

It's because it was written 10 years ago. Wow. But I've always loved this song. I love this artist. And I just sent it to him out of nowhere. It just kind of felt like, oh, you know what? I'm going to just send this. So I don't know why that's on yet last night.

But the idea that songs have, have to come out right now. I keep saying that in the sessions to slow things down. Good for you. We're like, who's looking right now? It's like, okay, we can aim for that. But just trust the process

that if that gives us inspiration to write, that's fine. But know that if it slows you down, if you're here long enough, like, that song that's uncut, it still might get cut. That's the coolest fucking thing about this job. They're going to outlive you.

It's nuts. People always think that it needs to come out. Well, let's send it to all these A&R guys now. By the time that song gets cut, the person who's the intern will be the A&R guy that's, the intern that's like, I like this song, but none of my bosses will listen to it. Wait till that intern's a boss.

You might just find a home for that song, you know? And just to answer your question without saying a specific song because that's too hard, I do have a really interesting category of songs about God and Jesus. That as a non-Christian, I think Jesus is such a cool human being. Like, that's how I see him is a human

that walked the earth that said beautiful things that have been grossly misunderstood and used for bad. And I keep writing these songs about faith because of my, you know, creepy cult childhood. And I constantly have like a, desire, I hope those songs see the light of day because they're all so interesting. It's like addressing something in a way that I think is a unique slant because I am who I am. And those, I have a passion for that category of song. And another category is just like human rights,

you know, like those are songs that, you know, you hope they get cut because even if two people hear them, you're like, oh, wow, I did something cool, you know, with my day. But yeah, I'm excited about those kinds of songs. It's like controversy. I love that shit. I had a song that was nominated for like a song of the year for the Spirit Awards. It's my dream. It's my dream.

I don't have like a long list of country songs, but it was a really interesting thing to write a song here with a friend who, you know, and then have it get cut and then be perceived as a song that belongs in that category. it was fascinating. There's, you know, I know this is a long interview, so thanks for sicken around. Oh my God, I'm happy to do it.

It's so much fun. You know, there's levels of hits, and then there's the level up to something like speechless. You know, you're speechless, the bones, this string of just really big songs. The songs that get you all the awards, It changes the meaning of, it's when you're Kai. Mm-hmm.

Did you know when speechless came out that that was going to be, or do you feel like when that came out that that changed the narrative? Oh, definitely. And did I know? No. I mean, I don't think. I mean, I know sometimes I'm like, oh, that's fucking amazing. But, I mean, no, I didn't realize it was going to be so massive.

And it did change everything. It changed, like, my perception of myself. I mean, you know, when you live in Nashville and you're not Nashvilleian slash country slash southern, you know, the very first thing they say is like, well, we should get you out to L.A. and see if you resonate with those people because you look like those people or you act like those people, whatever it is. And I always said no because I was like, I'd like to figure out how to, master, that's not a real word in this industry at all. I don't think there is such a thing with songwriting. I think we're just all students forever. But like I wanted to figure,

I wanted to prove to myself that I could be like a, you know, Nashville songwriter. And then when songs start sneaking over to a pop chart, it really legitimized my step into like, maybe, maybe this could be a lot of fun. Maybe you should trust your instincts and see if some of this shit could go well. You can't predict that. Of course not. But once it happened, I was like, now I feel legitimized. Once the speechless was behind me and the bones was happening, I was like, oh, no, I probably

should go out there and see if this resonates. It kind of works the other way, too. I think there's like this need to, you know, for me to have stuff in theater, for me to have stuff in Nashville, it feels like something because. To me, that's like, that was the songwriting when I grew up. That's real composition. And then, you know, it wasn't until I understood the value of melody and understanding what a great pop song is.

But you want that hit in the country or, you know, to be like, oh, no, I can write a real lyric. Exactly. You know, like, I love that there's town for that. I'm not just a guy who's just as melodies. Yeah. But isn't that such a fun thing about this town and this job? Like, if we work together, we're unstoppable robots. Like, I truly feel like if the melodies from this town, the production level is just ungodly.

It's a different level. Yeah, it's a big part of it. It's a huge part of this town in L.A. And then in Nashville, it is unabashed storytelling. Like, un-and-and-even I've told new people, like, I do a lot of mentorship stuff, and I always say, like, oh, am I, I'm a rock person. Should I move to Nashville?

is there a community for me? And I'm like, maybe, maybe not. But will you learn something and apply it to whatever type of music that you want to do? Abs of fucking Lutley. Like the song, craftsmanship in Nashville is fucking cool as hell. Like the way they see the world to be simple in that way, it's just amazing. And my writers who live in Nashville when they come here, it's like they're, they're just, it's amazing how much they understand story and how much they understand purpose in writing a song and not just. you know, not just words, not just chat GPT.

Yeah, exactly. You know, of all the things that the bones won across the board, it's fascinating that when you go to the Pop BMI Awards, that's the one. I was like, what? To win Song of the Year for Pop BMI says so much about, you know, when you talk about crossover songs. That blew my mind.

I think that blew a lot of people's mind in a really pleasant way. Think of the idea that you don't have to write, you know. It doesn't all have to be about rhythmic pop. That said, it's a syncopated pre-chorus for a country that's unusual, but it's not like, you know, it's not trying to write another Justin Bieber song. It's a combination of things. It's a combination of things. And that's the cool.

And her performance is amazing. Oh, my God. Shout out to both them. I like them. We're real. They're both cool people. Okay, so we're going to go five for five. We're going to start with the podcast.

Oh, yay. Okay, yeah. Just tell me, like, whatever comes off the top of your head. Ooh, how long do I have? I don't know. It can be a word, can be whatever you want. Oh, my God. I just want to talk about it.

Oh, God, it's like the most fulfilling thing I've put my hand to so far. I just am so excited about sharing my tricks about how to stay calm and enjoy your day and the process and manage your money and still like get shit done. Like it's not a ploy to, you know, sit back and do nothing. It's like literally like a method of progress. It's called Good Bones and you can hear it everywhere. Oh, no. It's called Songwriter Soup.

It's called, oh, it's called Songwriter Soup. And the link that I have is for a, aha, it's called Songwriter Soup and Good Bones. is the name of the article from American songwriter. Oh, yeah. Who's the, that's what it is. So songwriter's soup. And who are your co-host? Tracy Hackney, the financial advisor that, you know, I fell into his arms, you know,

after my first couple hits. And Kevin Sokolnicki, who is a podcast producer and producer as well. And the conversation exists between the three of us. And we walk through a book that Tracy and I actually wrote. It's not published, but we wrote it. as like a step by step. Why is it not published? Because, I mean, who's going to publish a book for, you know,

however many songwriters there are in the world? Like, honestly, we met with a few. I have one right there, and I have one right there, because apparently other songwriters also right. Yeah, yeah. It's really just that, like, it's a handbook. It's like, it's a handbook. And we thought the podcast would inform it.

It's really applicable for people outside of, you know, being a songwriter. It's how to be a handbook. a creator in a world that where meshing art and commerce is awkward because you love the art and how do you sell something that's art? It's awkward. So yeah, it's for

anyone who makes anything and has to be their own CEO, CFO, C-O-H-R, you know. I mean, it's an entrepreneur. It's an entrepreneur's. I remember somebody saying, you know, we think of an entrepreneur as somebody who's a millionaire or a billionaire or a billionaire

or whatever, but in reality it's still the basic definition of somebody who doesn't have a boss. Right. You can make just enough money to not have to get a job and you are an entrepreneur. And I think poets

in the back of classrooms are still befuddled that this is a job. Like still all of us can remember the day it's like, oh my God, that's a job. Like it's still not a real thing. And to so many it's like you turn 20 years old and it occurs to you that this could be a

whole career. Are you still friends? with Kai? We talk here and there. She's such an interesting woman. We bump into each other here and there, but she's a really neat human. It has a lot of neat ideas about how to live life happily.

We're going to go with Dream Girl, the song that you wrote with Adina, or for Adina, this Cinderella soundtrack. In a word. Hail Mary. No, I literally like that was, the most fast and furious thing that ever happened to me. I am obviously going back like I wanted to go into theater. So she's like a hero of mine and someone was like, oh, she's doing a version of Cinderella. You're in town. I was here and they were like, we know you fly out at like 2 p.m. But if you could just

pop in for a couple of hours and see if you could just whip up this thing. I mean, it's just crazy. And then all of a sudden it's like, hi, text message. Hi, it's a dean. here's the script you know and I read the script and I had all these ideas and I was like really you know really eager to please had all kinds of thoughts about what we could do and um it happened really fucking fast and she was like calling the director during the session like listen to this I think this is right you know and it was one of those things where there were songs on the table that had that like that were in that part of the movie and a deal Dina just had it in her to want to, she wanted to write it herself.

She, that's what she wanted. And we have sort of shared management because she's with Scooter and then Scooter and Big Machine are kind of in the same family. And so it's one of those things where it's like, let's just throw our people together and see what happens. So much fun. I mean, that was a lot of fucking fun. My favorite, I don't, I would think my favorite song that I've ever written is one that she cut. No way. Yeah. Fuck, that's crazy. We've hung out a few times. We obviously did that.

that record and obviously I work in theater and all that stuff. But that song, I just like, her performance was great, but it was just the right casting for that song, the right singer. I know when she's singing something, it's just, it's pretty special. It's just power. Yeah, there aren't that many people can sing like that on the planet. Wetlands Preserve. Oh my God.

I just had a run of energy, like, shoot through my body. I love that. We, yeah, we used to play there. We opened for Tim Reynolds there. Jake Zepernowski used to book the place, and I had a massive crush on him. He doesn't know this. He had a mustache. He used to wear, like, jumpsuits.

It looked like a gas station attendant. I was like, oh, my God, you're everything to me. Yeah, that was a really amazing thing. And then it closed down, which was just heartbreaking. But it's a staple. A staple. And every time I know someone my age, that was like on that circuit, it's like we have like a, you know, love connection over that place.

Your current family nucleus? Safe. I'll just leave it at that. Cecilia. My journey to hear mixed, mixed emotions. Yeah. Well, thank you for doing this. You know, obviously we've been friends for a while and it's, you know, it's, you know, it's,

It's nice when you can just root for people and not need anything from them or they don't need. It's like, you just can watch and just be like, oh, yes, every time you're just like, do another song. Do write pain for Ingrid. Write these right bones. Do these songs. Like you have the capability of doing songs that is not just, there just aren't a lot of people on the planet. who write your song with these people.

But we didn't even get into Demi and all this. You have this ability to write with these artists, male or female, whoever they are, and they're their best selves. So whatever crazy childhood history you have, it definitely taught you to do the opposite. I completely agree. You make a lot of people better.

Oh, God. It's really fun to watch. Thank you. Thank you. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. This episode is produced by Joe London, Hypnosis, Mega House Management, and myself.

See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.