And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 18: Simon Wilcox

Episode Date: May 29, 2017

This Canadian bred writer is one the busiest people in the music business today. With multiple platinum and gold singles under her belt, and credits such as Nick Jonas's "Jealous," Enrique Iglesias's "Duele El Corazon," and Fifth Harmony's "Write On Me," she has become known for her versatility and spot-on lyricism. No matter the artist or collaborator she sits in with, this songwriter's work is remarkable, as is her story. And The Writer Is...Simon Wilcox! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write songs.

write the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who is nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is, or go to our website www.com. Oh, and if you enjoy this podcast, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. We really appreciate that effort. Now, I'm not supposed to have favorites, but Simon Wilcox is one of my favorites. I bring her into sessions, whether it's a classic male artist, whether it's a young female artist. It doesn't matter.

Her lyrics know no bounds, and she knows how big of a fan I am of hers. So, I'm not going to get into any more details because I want you to enjoy this one. This is one of the most compelling conversations we've had. Ladies and gentlemen, this episode of Anne the Writer is is featuring Simon Wilcox. Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golland. Today's writer is one of my favorites in the business. She's penned number one songs and written with Hall of Fame level artists.

And although those accolades might seem impressive, her story is absolutely captivating. All the way from Canada, this writer is the one I call when I need another topliner in the because she can write with and for anyone. And the writer is Wiggie's mother, Simon Wilcox. Hi. Hi. Wiggy is your dog child. Yes.

How did he get his name? My fur baby. He came with that name from the shelter. Oh, that's cute. I think Peter, my dog, he came in with, I can't even remember, but totally different name, but I was like, nah. When I saw him, I was like, like, what's the? the line from Peter Pan or from Pan it's like

oh yeah there you are Peter I think I said that to him and I was like I'm gonna name him Peter That's so nice That's a beautiful story I don't have a story like that But I did find out at a party recently that See ya actually found Wiggy I thought it was Jesse Shacken See ya found Wiggy

So you have Sia's dog I have Sia's dog No she found him I guess Jesse asked her to send a dog like Joey because I love Jesse's dog and then Jesse sent me a picture of Wiggy and I went and adopted Wiggy and then at a party later I was giving Jesse the credit

and he was like no see I found your dog Wow yeah See that's why we asked the hard-hidden questions here to end the writer is Okay So you asked me right before In seven words

How would I describe you? Yeah I'm scared Okay go ahead Okay, so I wrote, so this would be my headline. I said, artistic Canadian female songwriter conquers with humility.

Oh, that's so nice. Seven words. That's so generous. Well, I believe that. I thank you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't always writing for Britney Spears and Enrique Iglesias.

Side note, my iPad auto-corrected DeGlacius twice, which says how famous he is, which is kind of nuts. But anyway, so you weren't always writing for those kinds of people. So I feel like we should start kind of the beginning of the story just to give some background of who you are. So you're born in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Yeah. Apparently my mom was dancing on a bar, on a table in a bar. And she went into labor. That's the story. Do you know what bar it was?

I don't. She was literally dancing on a bar? Like dancing on a table in a bar. Wow. Yeah. And she just looked down and they're like... I don't know. Sounds gross.

But that's the story. That's crazy already. Okay, so keep going. I'll let you tell some of the story. My dad had a gig at a biker bar. Your dad at... That night. Right.

So he was... He said he was scared that if he didn't show up at the gig, they'd break his hands. He's a guitar player. So my dad went to his gig at the biker bar, and my mom went to Hamilton with the keyboard player from a Canadian country band called Prairie Oyster named Joan Besson. So Joan took my mom to the hospital, and she gave birth to me. And then my dad, I guess, announced it on stage in the biker bar.

And they were like, you keep playing or will still break your hands. I don't know. That's his story. Why you were in there? Your dad is a famous Canadian folk. blues rocker There's an American David Wilcox and a Canadian David Wilcox

The American David Wilcox is a folk musician Right The Canadian David Wilcox is a Blues rocker Have you ever met the other No But sometimes people think he's my dad Which is

Incorrect Neither here nor there Right exactly So So you live with your parents For three years And then No my mom left when I was six

once old and then for the first three years of my life my dad tried to take me on the road um but he said i'd be the lump on the couch at parties and then uh he would just leave me with anybody who would take me and then eventually was my mom's idea there was a woman in ottawa that he was having a relationship of some sort with and she had the idea that um this woman take me and so my dad asked her to take me for a month and then at the end of the month she tried to give me back and he just refused to take me. Wow. What's your first memory of all that? I have a memory of being with my parents. My earliest childhood memory, I think, is of being with both my parents in an apartment somewhere. And the woman that... Which is weird because I shouldn't have memories from before three,

but I think I do. Right. So you're in Ottawa then. Was it, was he on the road? Was he on the road? and then just happened to be like last draw I'm going to just leave Simon with what was her name Mary with Mary who's a living person yes exactly in the world yeah hi Mary so he leaves he's now an accountant she went back to school and studied accounting yeah um were you exposed to I mean your mom was is also a musician right so you're like you were you were born as a musician of sorts, right? I mean, how are you exposed to music and you're dealing with life? And, I mean, what is the transition from being left in Mary's custody? In, like, geared to low-income housing in Ottawa. What is that like? I mean, is there music instruments around? No. Yeah, there were.

There were tons. Mary had a drum. I think Mary always dreamed of being a rock musician. And sometimes would put on Pretender's Records at night and stand in front of the mirror and lip sync and smoke weed and lip sync to Pretender's albums and she played drums and she'd invite

some of the neighborhood teenagers would come over and they'd jam at Mary's house on Thursday nights but I was never allowed to touch the musical instruments in the house how old are you when you could

I never I was never allowed to and you were there till you were 16 until I was 16, yeah. So how did she, what was she doing during the days? I mean, is she going to work and are you going to school? I mean, I have this weird sort of, it's like somewhat sort of like, not an orphanage situation, but kind of.

I mean, like, what is, how would you describe that? Things were really hard for Mary because she was very sick. Oh, wow. So she was this beautiful, statuesque, blonde. but really struggled with her health and with poverty. So she worked at the local convenience store when I was a kid and the health food store. And she got sick for a year and a half. She was in the hospital.

And she almost died. And during that period of time, I went to live with a woman who worked at the health food store with her. Crazy. And her husband, who was a cab driver at the time. Was there any contact with your family? Yeah, I mean, I'd see my dad when he was coming through town playing shows. He'd play at a club called Barrymorest, usually in Ottawa. So I'd see my dad then, and I didn't see my mom a lot during that period of time.

When did you start seeing? When did you start realizing that your, I mean, your mom was an accomplished producer, and your dad's an accomplished musician, when did you realize that that's a lot? what they were and that this was an unusual situation? I knew who they were, but they were unusual people. Right. So I think I sort of accepted that the situation was unusual. And I think like a lot of kids who grow up in situations like that, I allowed myself to believe that I was special.

And that's why my circumstances were challenging. Right. That makes sense. I think that's a story that a lot of kids tell themselves. and that this journey through my childhood was the beginning of me becoming the artist that I was going to be and that this was what I had to live through in order to make the art I was going to make when I grew up.

When did you start? Which is very grandiose, and I know that that's grandiose, but that's a survival. That's how a kid like me survives. I mean, I imagine most artists have some... Delusions of grandeur. Yeah, I mean, no, you wouldn't try it. it's totally for you to grow up where you grew up and to be where you are right now

means that throughout your whole life you've had delusions of grandeur i mean i still do yeah of course i mean that doesn't go away that's the the whole motivation behind most writers and artists i mean when did you realize you had a talent because having written with you i mean obviously you're as much of a poet as any lyricist i've ever worked with so my assumption is if you weren't playing instruments that you were writing poetry or reading poetry? I mean was she introducing you to literature? Yes. So... The house was full of books.

When did you start creating art? If it wasn't that you were allowed to play the instruments, when were you starting to create poetry? When were you starting to realize oh yeah, I can do, I can paint pictures with words or I can hear melodies even if I'm not touching these instruments? I was writing songs in my head. But you weren't recording any of them? All the time writing songs in my head.

So in grade four or five, I made friends with a girl named Eileen Sinclair. And Eileen had one of those cassette players that has the record button. So I go over to her house sometimes after school, and I would have memorized all my songs in my head, and then I would record them. And at some point, my dad came through town, and I gave him my demo. I must have been eight or nine years old, but I gave him my demo. But all my songs at that time were about women and alcohol,

because that's what my dad's songs were about. So I thought that was just what you wrote songs about. Women and Booze. Wow. Do you remember what your first song was? No. No. I just remember.

What? Something about coming up for some time, drink some wine. I don't know. Something really embarrassing and bad. Still probably could be used in something. So he goes in and he listens to it. Did he comment on it? Or was he encouraging?

I know he kept it. Yeah. Did you ever feel like, oh, yeah, you know what? I want to go on the road with you again to your parents? Or was it like once at that point you're like, because you're trying to define yourself. So you're writing these poems and songs. And yet you're still giving the tape to your dad, you know. I worshipped my dad.

Yeah. When did you? I had his poster on my wall. I wore his t-shirts. I thought my dad was everything to me. I think that's true for a lot of little girls. They think their dads are like gods. So when did you realize he wasn't a god?

I'm still figuring that out. Yeah? I don't know. It's really, it's a weird thing you're to love someone so much and unconditionally the way you love a parent. they always have a doorway into your emotional world and they can hurt you in a way that nobody else can right so yeah when did i realize my dad uh wasn't a god um i don't know maybe when i was a teenager maybe when i was like 13 or something and he yeah so you're you're growing up in ottawa and in your teens you

I know at 16 you you leave 16 you leave home yeah I started a band maybe when I was like 13 I was I was in like a punk band and then so I was making music and Were you playing an instrument at that point? Yeah well my aunt

had bought me a guitar at a pawn shop Okay So I was that Was learning some basic chords maybe when I was like 11 Okay So you could touch your instrument You just couldn't touch there

None of the good instruments Or no amplifiers No Because there were amps in the living room It was really like a kind of rock and roll house A huge final collection I mean you must have been exposed To all kinds of

In a way really good music Yeah amazing You know Well some yeah sure Like yes What was the hesitation And some of it wasn't good music Some of it was just conventional what you'd expect, like Led Zeppelin, which is amazing, but you'd expect that.

Right. Or Hendricks, you'd expect that. But then, yeah, there was Elvis Costello and David Bowie and Patty Smith. Yeah, that'll make you write good lyrics. Dr. John. And all those people wrote lyrics that were not normal. And also not melodically conventional in any way. That explains.

It explains a lot, I know. Well, no, because we, you know, we have these debates in a lot of our co-writes where you and I are sitting in a room. And I'm thinking math, math, math, and like symmetry and all these things. You're like, ah, it's not all about that. Some of it's emotional, some of it's lyric-based. And to allow a pop song to get out that has the depth of a Bob Dylan record, you know, is, it's really hard for a writer. It's different as an artist, I think, but it's hard for a writer to let the lyric sing, and you're always, you know, that's why I was asking about the poetry. You know, because it feels like when you come in, it's like the poetry matters, the concept matters.

But it would make sense if those are the, not to say that they, you know, obviously the concept always matters, but I mean, the lyric is king in your world. Okay, so here's what you have to imagine, okay, this small Simon living in this house in the world. where I really have no parents. I listen to those records on headphones, on vinyl, and I felt less lonely. Right. And I think that those records saved my life many, many, many times over. Because I felt this kinship with the artists

who were singing about their own loneliness and their own struggle. And I think that I've devoted my life. to trying to give that back in some small way. Sure. Have you ever met any of those artists? Oh, on Valentine's Day, recently, Vince took me to an Elvis Costello concert. Yeah. And he got me a front row ticket.

And every time that Declan McManus would walk up to the front row, I would wilt. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you had a personal connection. I would hide. He was just laughing at me the whole time I'd. have no desire to meet and any of those people. Yeah, but I think, you know, I'm sure there are people that have come up to you and

thanked you for the fact that you spoke to them. Sure. Yes. I can imagine that if you ever have the opportunity that those people would really appreciate hearing how influential they were because I think we're all writing in a weird sort of way in a vacuum. And then you find out that somebody in Ottawa is listening to it and you're giving them an outlet that matters, you know, you forget about that. You forget that these songs actually matter

or that the music matters. Sometimes you get in your own head and it's really hard to, you're having a good time that day and you're writing that song or whatever, but you forget that those songs travel and end up in the headphones of somebody who's struggling in an apartment or a house, whatever, in a hodawa. Maybe somebody who needs them, yeah. Yeah. So at 16, you leave and you start traveling the world, right? or something like that? I tried to finish high school at the time. I'm basing this off of, by the way,

looking up some press stuff from like, from your first records and trying to find like anything old school about you that I knew a lot of this story, but I mean, it's really interesting to see what's out there versus what's real. So correct me along the way. But I saw, you know, just stuff about you traveling.

And I know we've talked about drugs and muggings and all kinds of stuff. Yeah. So how, you're at 15, 16? 16. I moved out into like a house with a bunch of anarchists. And they were all at least 10 years older than me. So you were, you quit school?

No. I was still in school at the time. And my dad gave me some money, gave me $400 a month. And my rent was $176 to rent my bedroom. And then I tried to go to high school. but I all of a sudden had a lot of trouble in school because all of a sudden I was never I was always good at English and you know drama but I started to have a lot of trouble with authority because I felt like I was dealing with adult things and I hated being condescended to at school so I used to always say that the teacher who treated me like a child I hated. Teachers who treated me like a student I adored.

Yeah. And so many those people would, it's sort of like an outlet to be authoritarian. And it's like, just because I'm young doesn't mean that I'm stupid. It just means that I haven't learned it yet because I've only lived for 15 years. Give me a fucking break. You know, and that was like, so, yeah.

I felt old at that point in my life. Yeah, you'd already lived a lot. on your own. But I did, I mean, I had good teachers as well, Mr. Gamble. My English teacher was really good. Nice. So I dropped out of school because I couldn't do it anymore. And my dad suggested that I moved to Toronto to try to have a relationship with him.

Okay. So I moved to Toronto to try to have a relationship with my dad and it didn't really work. Did you? I moved into an apartment. But he helped. help me. What was that like that was it sort of when he says he wants to have a relationship with you it's sort of like let's meet once every other week or something or was it like let's see each other every day and build a rapport? I mean what is that what does it consist of to say? I don't know

what sort of expectations I had yeah and I don't know what he thought he could offer but it just didn't it didn't work and I ended up getting a job in some restaurants waiting tables and finishing high school by correspondence just sitting at the library and doing that in the city yeah in Toronto and being really lonely because I had never I didn't know anybody there really and I it's hard to make friends at that age if you're not in school sure a lot of the people who were waiting tables were again older than me so I did that and then I got um I got an old four track uh tape machine task cam tape machine from my dad that thing changed my life they did a little grayish blue yeah gray's balloon yeah and I just would make four track recordings well I many more

tracks obviously because I would you know bounce the right so um and where you're at this point 17 or something like yeah 17 18 yeah and then um I had a boyfriend at the time who was really nice to me he was a law student who was also waiting tables to put himself through law school he lived in my apartment building and he said uh you need to do something with your life you can't just sit in the dark and make make music these weird recordings Little does you know that that you're still doing that right now. You're still in the dark

in some darker in most days writing songs. At least you've got all a bunch of friends with you. He said you could go to art school. He said you're a really good painter. You could go to art school. Why don't you put your portfolio together and I'll take you to whatever.

They had this thing where you could lay out your portfolio and the art teachers would walk around. So I got into art school. And then I went to art school for a couple of years and they had a program where you could go to Florence. And the whole time I had this feeling like

if I couldn't make music I would die. If I couldn't be this thing. I knew that I was in art school, but I knew... Be this thing, what does that mean? Be this... If I couldn't realize the human being that was inside of the shell

that I was performing my life as a... visual art student because I could do it I could kind of fake it I was good at it and it was easy but I didn't have the it's not even the passion for it there were just people that I went to art school with where their work was just transcendent yeah and there was no way of faking that and I felt like maybe there was a shot that I had that in music But you didn't have it as a painter? I didn't think I did. Or maybe I just wasn't willing to work hard enough to...

But I didn't feel like I had it as a painter. Although I do think my embroidery of vintage gear is pretty... No, I'm joking. Sorry. Sidebar. So I went to Florence and I spent a year in Florence studying art and art history and busking. Okay. I went out on the... the street and just played my songs with a guitar with an acoustic guitar and I would play for about

45 minutes and I'd make enough money to get all my friends drunk and then we go and we get drunk and it was so terrifying for me to walk to the piazza with my acoustic guitar open my guitar case and just go and my songs were about my life profoundly autobiographical and awkwardly honest. What did people think when they heard this girl on the street singing in English and saying stories about abandonment? Did they understand? I think there were tourists who understood, but I comforted myself because the lyric was so intimate

for me, I comforted myself by thinking, oh, they can't understand English. They totally could. But that was how I justified it. And then I went back after that year, I went back to. went back to Toronto and two things happened. One of my girlfriends told an engineer at a recording studio that her friend

had a bunch of songs, she should come in and record. And I went into the studio and sang my songs and recorded them and he took me really seriously. So that happened. And then also, my dad's girlfriend at the time was letting me stay in her apartment. In Toronto. In Toronto.

and her apartment burned down. Not with things that you had in it? Yeah. Oh, wow. And I realized that... What a metaphor. I realized that the art form, that the song could exist in equally as powerful a form

in many different places at the same time. But, you know, if you see a reproduction, of Monet's Water Lily's. It looks like cliched dentist office artwork. But you see it in real life and it blows your mind. But the song to me suddenly

was this more effective canvas. Yeah, in a weird sort of way people tend to be more when they see something live and it doesn't represent the recording of it they feel like that's the reproduction that failed and when someone can sort of reproduce it live

the way it sounds like in the recording then they feel like oh they went and saw the version of that live but they still go back to the recording that's really an interesting way to look at the medium for sure but you didn't really have any experience at that point recording in the studio right well no I just had maybe had my first experience with this

engineer who helped me out Right. So you bring in a bunch of the songs from Italy at the time, and you just, let's, I don't know, let's go and see what this is, or was he like, this is huge, you know, I want to go and, I'm going to send this to all the record labels. I mean, like, what, because at this point, you go from singing on a street in another country, you come home

the apartment burns down and that's the same time you're recording this so at that point I was staying in my dad's girlfriend's apartment so at that point my dad didn't want me to stay at his house and didn't really want me around like so he called my aunt and said can Simon sleep on your couch for a while

I had no money everybody knew that I had no money what was his excuse to you he actually didn't tell me I just found out later that he called my aunt and said, can you take Simon? But there was still no explanation. It was just sort of that. But I'd come back from Europe and I was just broke and had nothing and was, you know, couch surfing. So I went to my aunts at that point and stayed there.

Were you still with the law student? No, no. No, we broke up a long time ago. Right. So you go then and you're at your aunt's house. and that's when you meet the engineer? Probably before that, but around the time that I went and started, that was around the time that I started actually really recording music

and put together a band and started touring and playing folk festivals and made my first real record, which was a folk record called, I'm not going to repeat what it was called because I'm shy. The manga? Yes. The lyric was, I am a mongrel of love. I am a mut, a mut, a mutt, I am a mutt. I am a born-again virgin.

I'm a recovering slut. Oh, wow. It was not about me. It was about someone I knew. And it was... That was the lyric. It's solid, though. I mean, like, it's smart.

I mean, you can tell that this is not... You're not writing songs to be famous. You're writing songs to get something off your chest. those are very different kinds of artists you know at that point you're like I'm going to write something that matters yeah I'm going to write lyrics that move the needle you know and if the songs go somewhere

that's fine I mean at this point you're going in how soon after you recorded this you're like I'm going to pursue this as a profession right away it was never a choice oh yeah it was like my body was the shell and I was always trying to break out

of the egg shell, but it was always who I was. Was your aunt supportive of you doing this? Nobody in my family believed I could do it. Yeah. Just me, I just hadn't met you yet. Well, thank you. I think they thought it was a pipe dream. My aunt was lovely to let me crash on her couch, but I...

Yeah. Nobody. I mean, yeah, it's fine. I mean, I imagine that's, you know, you're in the middle of Canada, Canada. It fueled me. You're in, no offense to, I know we actually have a lot of listeners in Canada, and obviously, some of the biggest artists in the world are Canadian, you know, The Weekend, Bieber, and Celine Dion, and there's like a list of, of, you, the best in, Michael Boubley, the best in almost

every genre somehow seems to be Canadian, so I don't know why, you know, I don't mean it to say that Canadians shouldn't be successful, but I think the idea of growing up not in the middle of Los Angeles is a giant red X on your, you know, against you to begin with. I agree. You know, and you're trying to go and be heard by recording demos

at some engineer studio is, you know, the odds are infinitesimal. You know? Yeah. It's really like it's a shocking achievement to even get to a point of I'm going to record music

in a small town, let alone say I'm going to go and release this music and then see what happens. I mean, when you're done with it and are you starting to just hand out demos and then it spreads or what happens? Well, first I made these cassette tapes that had, I just duplicated my ID. So it was my ID card and then you had this cassette tape with some songs on it. Like your driver's license kind of thing. Exactly. I didn't have a driver's license thing.

ID card, like subway with the picture, subway pass or whatever. And I made T-shirts as well with my ID on them, which I never do now. But anyway, I just gave up my social security number. Yeah, exactly. Did you do it as like, I mean, were you actually making the T-shirts or did you- Yeah, I went to like a place where they press the things and you could come with a photograph and make the decal. Yeah. I mean, it was an art student.

Right. At that point, a graduate. But, yeah. So you go and you release this first music and what happens? Yeah, but everything I did led to something new and something led to an opportunity. Every show I played, I met someone. I got an agent, I got a, you know, things just happened. How much did, I know we've talked about this before, that at the time, people just kept saying, you know, David Wilcox's daughter.

Well, here's, and this was the worst part is that I was making music and I was getting press. But I was also telling the truth about my life up until that point. Right. Because I was angry and damaged. And so it was horrible from my dad to have all these articles come out about. Yeah. You know. And you're living on your aunt's couch at this time?

Uh-huh. What did your aunt think about all that? My aunt is really gentle. And amidst a family of fierce, complicated monsters. My aunt is very gentle and forgiving and understanding. Yeah. So I just think she let it go. These things are getting out there, and you're finally able to tell your story.

Yeah, so how much of it was... I mean, the fact that my dad was already somebody, so it was news that I was making music. I don't know. I mean, my career progressed as an artist to a point where I had a top 10 hit in Canada. And I had a pop career with it, and where people would go up to my dad, or my dad said people would go up to him and say,

I love your daughter's music. So there's a little bit of a gap there, though, I hope that there was some quality to it, that it wasn't just coasting on my dad's, riding on my dad's coat tails. Well, no, I mean, clearly, like the name even just. He has a song about that. It's called Professional Victim. When did that come up? I mean, I don't want to go into, people can look up when all these songs come out and all that stuff.

But without, you know, when you come out with mongrels of love. Mongrel. Mongrel. Singular. One mongrel. One mongrel. One mongrel. One mongrel.

And then, you know, you know, you know, you know, you come out of love. And then, you know, you're talking about four years later you come out with the pop music, right? Yeah. So you're talking about at that time, you're, you spend four years there going from folk music to not so folk music. I mean, that first single that does really well. It's terrible. We can acknowledge that because I made it with friends of mine who I love and I still work with. This is mommy's and daddy.

Yeah, mom is. Yeah, that's a terrible. It's a terrible song. But it did. As he mumbled through it. Yeah. But, you know, that comes out, and that's clearly opposite of the kind of music that your dad was doing or has ever done. Is that, was that by choice, or was it like, I want to write music that's cool right now, and this is about me?

No, it was this. Okay. So I made the Mongrel of Love record, and then I wrote this other record that never came out called Annie C, which was about a. girl I'd known growing up who was a teenage prostitute whose body was found by a janitor on a Monday morning behind a school

because I always thought there was very little difference between the two of us that could have been my body so I wrote that record and then and I started to get press and people based on the very first record on the mongrel record started asking me to

co-write and i started having success with those co-wis who is asking you these amazing artists from montreal it started with an artist named juran who's a cellist and sings in a made-up language and is a highly respected musician seegeress before sigorous who she travels the world and plays with symphony orchestras and and so we had some success with her song and then a band named Preje Orange, another band from Montreal, like a pop rock band. But we wrote a song together and that went to number one at Much Music on the Much Music Countdown, which is totally meaningless in America. But for me...

That's a TRL kind of thing, isn't it? Right, exactly. So this is happening and I had just made this folk record that people recognize that there was a quality to the songs. And when you do that, by the way, it's like we're, it opens up the doors. Some of the, some of the writers that we've talked to have been the kinds of do these side projects that are really intricate and really interesting and are not made to sell records.

And those are the ones that, then the people who want to sell records, they go to that person because like there's an authenticity to it. you know you were putting your heart on your sleeve and so every artist that realizes wow if i had some of that emotion in my songs i would be much better you know it would help my career so it makes sense that you put out something that's that honest that all there's a trail of people who want to co-write so it's cool that that happened organically i mean did where they were just discovering it on their own it wasn't like you had a publisher pushing that kind of stuff right i was just an indie artist and opportunities like that started happening

and then because Montreal was really a hot scene at the time I still is but at the time was really hot people in Toronto started to hear about me and then a friend of mine was developing a band called Three Days Grace and so then I went in and I worked with Three Days Grace and then I had my first success in the U.S. with that band and I realized that I loved. That was a really big band too

I realized that I loved co-writing. I loved it. And this is while you're doing the art? I was an artist. At this one moment in time, I'm in Canada, and I have my songs on the radio, and Three Days Grace and Prejeerange. Anyway, that's not the point.

So let's rewind for a second. So I make the folk record, and I get a development deal from Warner, Canada. And they send me to Los Angeles, where I work with a record producer for a year who I end up dating. So I'm from, I'm a total hick, I'm in L.A. I have no money.

He got all the money from the development deal went straight to him. So I'm living in his house. He's very, very dirty, very, very big, scary house. Living in his house, at some point, I have a total breakdown, and I go back to Canada and I quit music. Timing wise

You go You just had done Mongrel of Love You get the development deal You come here Or did you already write that one album That was about the girl Or was that the album

What was it that you were writing with this? The big record That was going to get me the deal The big deal It was going to make me a superstar Or whatever the ridiculous Ideas Did you have to date this guy?

Did I have to date the producer? Yeah. You know, there's this thing that happens when you're a young woman in the music industry, or when I was a young woman in the music industry, where a lot of people try to sleep with you. Yeah. Especially the bottom feeders. What do you mean by that?

Like, when you're working at a certain level with people who take their job seriously and are professionals and care about their reputations and care about their work, Generally speaking, you are treated with kindness and respect. Most of the people I work with now treat me with nothing but kindness and respect. And I'm so fortunate to have worked my way up from the bottom of the swamp to where the flowers grow. But down to the bottom of the swamp, there are some nasty creatures. And anyone who's made it, regardless of gender, has had encounters with those nasty creatures. What was it like?

Confusing. I was just confused. So it makes sense that I ran away. I went back to Canada. I actually ran away like in the middle of the night, went to the airport, slept at the airport, had a voucher for a ticket. Had a voucher for a ticket on and used the voucher, got on the plane, went back to Canada, and then at that point became an engagement.

insurance salesperson travel insurance i did i wrote my exam in accident and sickness insurance and started selling insurance at a travel agency so you go off the plane you go to your aunt's place yes and i start rebuilding my life i quit music music is not cool i don't want to ever see those people deal with those people again i never want to feel like that and the people at warner they just you know they're used to people kind of coming and going. I mean, the Anar guy said he lost his job because of me. But I don't see how that's possible. Another guy, another guy blaming another girl for their own problems,

for probably the fact that he's just not a good ANR guy. Right. And then he runs a big prize, like, fun for music. That's super hipster. But yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Does he recognize how successfully? you are right now? I don't know. That's a whole other conversation. So you go and you end up,

you're now selling insurance and are you now making money? That's probably the first time you're really making money then, right? Yeah, well, I started making some money there, but then I got a job at the YWCA as well and working on this initiative called Week Without Violence. So I was able to do some activist work and work at the insurance. Well, other than the lack of music, that sounds like... Thing. You know, working advocacy and there was probably some fulfillment out of that. For sure. I loved it.

Yeah. Yeah. So then something weird happens. What? Which is that some songs that I had written with a friend of mine in his basement, get me a record deal. How does that happen? Because people are like begging for record deals

and here you are begging not to get a record deal. It was music I didn't like that I wasn't proud of. So somehow in my story it made sense that that... That this now has to represent you again. It's a complicated story that's not that interesting that leads to I had a record deal.

And making music I didn't like. Singing music I didn't like, and that's what was successful for me. And I couldn't turn down the record deal because I was me. Yeah. How could I say no, even though I'd quit music? Sure. And I'd be careful what you wish for a little bit, right? She pulled me back in. Who's she?

Music. Yeah. That beautiful, cruel mistress, she would not let me go. Yeah. And the label, which label is that at the time? It was BMG and then it became Sony BMG Right And they go and they release it

And you start Killing it Well no it was a turntable hit It was a turntable hit Nobody knew who I was But they just knew the song So I would play the song To a crowd

And they would go Oh that's her song They put two and two together Right And I didn't like it So I was judging the audience But some of it I think

You know not to go through Like You know Mother's Ruin is kind of my jam. That's like a real... That's later. Okay. Because that's like the pretenders.

To me that's like... That's later. That's like super exciting. Okay, so now this gets interesting. No offense to the earlier stuff, but something about like a lot of the solo stuff is really like. I'm surprised that you say that maybe... That's a whole other record and that's actually interesting. So I'll skip ahead.

So I made some money making that music that I didn't like. And I took that money and I moved to Liverpool. And I lived in a bed sit in Liverpool and was introduced to the rhythm section of Echo and the Bunny Men. And I took all the money that I made and I made a record that I loved. And it's a rock record and Mother's Ruin is a song on that record. That's awesome. And that record is called The Charm and the Strange.

And that was... I like how confident you're saying this. Because that's the album that you believe in. And you're like, you know, my love. Nice and dirties. And then you go and you're like, fuck yeah, I went to Liverpool and I recorded Echo and the Bunny Man.

Well, it wasn't like on the money. It was there. Yeah, it was a few bunnies. Yeah. So, and I made this record at Parr Street, which is a beautiful studio in Liverpool, and I really made a record that I loved, and I got a deal for it in Canada,

thanks to a friend of mine, and Gary Slate, helped me get a deal for it. And it came out. And nobody cared. Because you can't go from being lame to being cool. Interesting. I don't think. I think you can go...

You can go cool to being lame. Cool to lame. But I don't think you can go as an adult. I think you can have a career as a kid and then become cool. But I don't think they forgive adults. They, the audience, the world, the listeners of music. It's weird that when... I'm...

Canadians. I'm really happy that... Canadian. I'm really happy that I didn't grow up with... My first band was right when MySpace was coming out. My first record deal happened right when MySpace was coming out. Yeah. And everything before it, I am stoked that there's very little history on.

Because, I mean, there are mistakes all over the place. Yeah. And it's horrible. Versus right now, when you're out of the womb, you're like, I can be famous, so I'm going to go on YouTube. And it's like, oh, no, no, no, just slow up. Just slow up and go through, make a lot of mistakes before you go to YouTube. Let YouTube happen on your ninth album.

And then you're like, ah, this is what I want the world to see. But it's so hard, you know, when people know who you are. But the thing is, like, you have more streams on. I mean, there's more listens on the, you know, You know, the newer music you had than the older, is it just because of timing? I mean, I'm surprised you say that people weren't listening to it. It seems like they were used in a few different things. They were using soundtracks and stuff like that, right?

Honestly, I have no idea. Yeah. Can I say something about Liverpool? Yeah. Your mother came up under George Martin in some way, right? Yes, she was the first woman record producer in the British. record producers guild under George Martin. So when you're in Liverpool,

did you connect those dots? Was there some sort of like, I can do this in this town? Is there a reason why? Is there any coincidence? No, I went to Liverpool specifically. I love Liverpool. My mother lived in London and had,

Northern England is really very different. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So. Really blue collar. And we weren't. We weren't close at that time. And she wasn't making music, I don't think, either at that time. She's a visual artist now and is very accomplished.

But I was just obsessed with Liverpool because it felt somehow like everybody who wanted to be famous went to London. But everybody who made music because they had to, because they had no choice, because that was the, the only way that they could cope was still in Liverpool. And it feels like there's this resonant ripple effect of the work that was done there that makes people believe that music can change the world, that pop music, that rock music can change the world. When you live around the corner from Penny Lane, which I did, it feels like music. is important.

Right. In a way that it didn't feel like it was important in Ottawa, not in the same way. Or there was this feeling of people who were jaded or more jaded. So you go and you finally record this music that you believe in. I'm exhausted right now. How did all this stuff happen? I feel tired just talking about all of it. I love it, though.

Okay. So you finally record the, we can get you more coffee. No, no, I'm good. I'm good. Okay, cool. No, I'm sorry. I don't mean that that way. No, I know.

No, I mean, but this is what's cool. People have asked us a few times recently to be like, oh, can you talk about songwriting process and about how you write each song? And we can get into that. But that's a whole other thing. To me, like, what's really compelling in the music industry are the unsung heroes. And the hero's journey that you've gone on, and I mentioned that a lot, is really inspiring.

that you go and you're raised in a in all odds are against you. I mean, regardless, even especially considering the genetics that you, you know, your history, you went and you go in your, the struggle is so real and that's why you're still here. And if you didn't go through this struggle and it wasn't. exhausting, you probably wouldn't be here anymore. Had you not, you could have, you could still be selling insurance, but you didn't, you saved up that money and you go to Liverpool and you record this. That's an important story.

To me, like, that is just the beginning. And I love that it's exhausting. I hope that the people who listen to this realize that, like, that exhaustion is, is the fuel that is why you're going to go to some session after this to write and why I am too. It's because I'm going to feel, you know, it's because that's exciting. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Anyway. You go, you finish that recording in Liverpool. I finish that record. I come back. And people don't want to hear it, but you're proud of it, I bet. Yeah, I come back to Canada. I finish it with, again, with some friends of mine. And we release it, and it is a total flop. An epic flop.

It's a, nobody, nobody cares. Right. So, and then around the same time, I guess. It sued by a former colleague, and I am back in the poor house. I'm living in another rooming house with a lock on the door, and I have to get a job to pay my legal bills. And also, I'm being audited because my income went up stratosphericly from like $6,000 a year, you know, and then crashed again. So now I'm living back in this little padlock on the door. I get a job answering phones at an accounting firm in the mornings, and then in the afternoons

I write songs. Now we're at 10 years ago. 10 years ago, I am answering the phone. Rocheberg and Rochework, how may I help you? Every morning. And some of my friends would call just to hear me say it and then laugh and hang up. Yeah. So that happens.

I expect the next time I call you. that's how you answer by the way. I'll be offended if you don't. So that happens. Writing songs every afternoon and I and I'm signed to EMI music publishing. How do you get that? So I got signed to a publishing deal.

Off of the music from Liverpool? No, early days. Okay. Off of the, around the time that the three days grace cuts happened. Okay. I got signed to a pub deal and my publisher is amazing or was amazing. He's still an amazing. person. So I'm signed to EMI for publishing. So they reach out and they say there's a manager in

L.A. who's looking for somebody like you. Why don't you send her some music? Dan Patel? No. Her name was Jenny Price. Okay. And a whole bunch of people had sent Jenny music, but Jenny said, I like Simon's songs. And so EMI generously helped me. move from my bedroom in a rooming house to the sportsman's lodge. So some guy, you're contacting the publishing company being like, hey, I have a day job right now, but are you pushing them?

Or is it just that they're like, they're just a fan of yours? And they're just like, you know what? Why don't we send Simon's music to this random manager? Yeah. Just like super like, to them it's just like casual. They're just going through. They get some email or some no being like, hey, do you know any writers?

And they're like, oh, Simon could be good. Yeah, they already... And then it's like, meanwhile, it's changing your life behind your back. Yes, and they already had writers in L.A. that they were helping out. Right. Like, try to break into the L.A. scene or whatever. So I don't know why, but Jenny just liked my songs and moved me down here.

And I... I... Then I just worked really hard. Yeah? Then I started over for the, like, fifth time in my life. And you were rented, you were in an apartment in L.A. No, they put me at the Sportsman's Lodge initially. Oh, right, right, right, in the valley.

And then a friend of mine called me and said it. You probably met like, there are every artist that travels through L.A., their bus goes there. I saw the buses, yeah. Yeah. Because it's like the only place that allows you to park tour buses. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So it's every, my friends that tour through L.A., especially country artists.

Like, they stay at Sportsman's Lodge. So if you ever want to meet artists in L.A., just sit in the park. a lot. I should have. That's what I should have done. Yeah, exactly. So you're staying at the Sportsman's Lodge. Yeah. And then, uh... And then Breed Carolina shows up? I mean, you jump up from like, okay, well, not, and then here's this band and how do you end up working with, you know, you switch from Jenny? But Jenny's looking for a manager. She's a manager looking for a writer. She's not looking to manage you. Yeah, she was looking to manage me. She moved me down here and started representing me and got me meetings with people and got me sessions and then she quit the music business um and then uh amanda burman helped me immeasurably because i was an emi writer even though i hadn't been signed by her she helped me a huge

amount and then dan patel found me who's my current manager through my songs yeah he heard the songs that ian wrote with me and i guess liked them enough to want to be in carbatrick yes liked them enough to want to meet me and then we met and he did the cleverest thing that I've ever seen a manager do he never asked me if I wanted to be managed by him he just started managing me yeah so that I had to come to him and say um where do we stand what is this smart so Amanda hooks you up with Amanda your publisher hooks you up with Ian the producer who's working on Breathe Carolina. I assume that's still like the first thing that you start getting cuts with.

That's it. Because they were, they had a top 40, a couple top 40 hits. It's your first like American top 40 song, right? Is through Breathe Carolina? Am I skipping steps or am I, I, I'm on the right page? Yeah, I had actually co-written Breathe Carolina's previous two singles with my long time

collaborator, Mike Green. And then for the next like the next five years you're just writing around. You've, you've got Dan Patel, who's now starting hustle for you and you go from that to Nick. Actually, Ross, during that period of time, I worked with Josh Grobin and Petula Clark and walk off the earth and had a single with the ready set. So I was doing stuff. But no, during those five years, you're like, I'm, I'm...

I was getting a lot of work in film and TV. And that was sustaining me. So I had a song in Twilight. That was a really big deal for me. I had... 50% kind of thing? Or like, like, I mean, When you're writing these songs, is it just you? No, are you writing with a friend? 25%. So you're writing, you're doing normal sessions and some of them just end up on soundtracks that are selling four million copies. Yes. Amazing.

And it's your voice on it too, no? Sure. It's a duet and I'm very low in the mix. Yeah. So it's not like you're, you know, that's still a number one album probably, you know. and you probably had a few cuts, but I think, were you at that point aiming for,

yeah, I want a number one song. Or at this time you're like, finally I'm free of all this shit. And I'm becoming a woman who's on her own. And like, I don't need to deal with these people, you know,

from my past and you're defining yourself. And then all of a sudden, the number one song at radio comes out, which I think wasn't even supposed to be the single and all the other things. How does jealous happen? And what's your reaction? to being on top of the world.

Okay, okay, okay. I was so grateful to just be in L.A. and have sessions and have a good manager and have all of this good fortune that I had never had before. And I had fallen in love with my best friend and I was surrounded by a community of incredible artists and I had people in my life at that point

who really believed in me and supported me. I lived in a place that was clean and safe. I had a wonderful landlady. The sun was shining. I was in Santa Monica. I felt the ice from the Canadian winter that was deep in my bones melting. Was it a Grammy party? I met Nolan.

Our managers put us together for a session. Nolan Lambrosia, the producer, Sir Nolan. I had a session. Dan had a consultancy at Island. He got me the session with Nick. He said, who do you want to do it with? I said, Nolan. Nick came in.

We went out to the parking lot. We were sitting there and we were talking. And he said, he just opened up to me and said, he was talking about his relationship and said, sometimes I like it when my girl gets jealous. Ah. There are moments that happen in our lives, Ross Kolan,

where the little beans that lie sleeping on the floor of our minds start to jump and dance. And he said that to me, and I said, that's what I want to write about. Yeah. And because it was true. And I believe in truth in art. Yeah.

And I hadn't heard somebody sing about jealousy as a positive before. Yeah, right. And the minute that I said it to Nick, we clicked. Right. And you know how talented he is. I mean, how talented Nolan is. Yeah. So we was like, uh, zippa-de-bl-z-z-z-h.

Sure. And then we wrote the song. Did you know that this, you were like, wow, this is a great song. I thought it was solid. I thought it was a solid album cut. And that I thought Nick and I would write together again. I was really looking forward to it. I had no clue that it was a life-changing song.

Yeah. I mean, that happens. And even when they make it a single, I believe, and I mean this in the most positive way, it didn't get really good research. And it was like, but the fans actually really liked it. You know, and somehow it weasels its way up the charts. I mean, are you pinching yourself the whole way? Were there ever times that you wanted to, you know, call home to your dad and be like,

hey, fuck you, I'm at the top? Or were you like, I'm enjoying this because, you know what, I earn this on my own and I'm a champion? Because it's like the odds, this is one of those things. You know, you're talking about 40 songs at a time. And here you have the one that's, that climbs up to the top. that must have been just a giant weight off your shoulders. You know, I didn't enjoy it that much. Really? Why?

Because you just didn't realize it? I have trouble enjoying things that I know are fleeting. Although, and I know this, everything in life is fleeting. Do you enjoy it now? Yeah, I probably enjoy it more in retrospect than I did at the time. The best time for us. But I just want to ring the bell again. I'm like all of us, like, I just want to prove that I could.

ring the, I rang the bell once. Maybe I can ring the bell again. How am I going to ring the bell again? Yeah. But you can't live like that. You have to focus on the process and enjoy the process and love the actual work that you're doing. You can't just live focused on hits. It's like a sickness.

The weird thing is when a song goes down, the minute it starts going down is the biggest relief. It's so funny. Because a song starts doing well and you check the thing. charts and you check radio charts and you're listening to Top 40 and you're doing everything you can to will this thing forward for longer, for bigger, hoping it's a copyright, hoping it's all these

things. And once it goes down, it was just a song the whole time. And it's like a giant release. And it's like I can look forward again. Yeah. When you go through the... I don't check charts. I don't watch the charts. I mean

my manager will text me about them and stuff. But I don't I don't do that to myself, but yes. I agree with you. I mean, I took the charts on other people's songs. You do? Yeah, I wish I didn't. That's the worst.

Isn't that just... It's a waste of time. Yeah, I was going to say that, but I want to... I mean, I play video games too. It's also a waste of time, but it's fun to like watch, like, I guess at least in that I actually have some power in it. When I go and I watch charts, like I have no stake in the game, really. I think I just tend to root for my colleagues and my friends, because I'm

know that if they're successful, that's good for the community. Yes. I love seeing my friends win. Yeah, I tend to like root that on. But I don't know. I don't know why I do. When you have songs that, you know, body say for Demi and chainsaw, which is an amazing record for Nick, like, is there hope wrapped in those songs coming out?

Or are those songs where it's like they're successful because they came out? I love chainsaw. Yeah. I love that song and I'm sad that it was never a single. Yeah, me too. I think that once again it's truth and it's coming from the heart and I love that song. So yeah, of course there's hope and disappointment wrapped up in it. But we have to focus on the things we can control.

And I have this beautiful memory of being a mammoth in the studio with some of the best, writers in the world and my friends standing on the furniture listening back to chainsaw with our hands in the air and that's the moment that writers live for and I think that that's actually a better high

than having a number one even that's what we need to focus on is that beautiful moment of connectivity yeah speaking with you had a single come out today so congratulations with Flame by Tanasha you have this ability to come in

and hear things fresh and not be I get paralyzed a lot in that situation because I just want to change everything and do all things over and you come in with like a freshness that freshenes up the song in a way that I don't think I can do very well.

It's harder to fix a song than it is to write a new song. I agree. Yeah? I mean, I spent yesterday we spent eight hours in a studio working on a chorus on a song that we kind of like the melody and we spent all eight hours

rewriting a concept I don't know I don't know if we got anything versus how we start a song from scratch maybe we'd have a song today one of the things that we do is I'll list five things and I just want to hear the first thing that comes off the top of your head

okay sounds like a Dadaist game yeah I still don't have a name for this segment so I just talk about how I still have no name for this segment. Okay. But anyway. Sir Nolan.

Okay. I'm embarrassed by what came up first, but it's love. I love him. He's my friend. I love him. Yeah. Sir Nolan's an excellent producer, who you've now done a number of records with. Yeah.

He's a good friend of ours. We like him. Enrique Iglesias. Challenging? He demands the best from you. And he isn't afraid to push you until he gets it. But he set the bar.

And he set the bar really high. Justin Trudeau. Oh, I really like him. Okay, but it has to be one word that... No, you can do it everyone. I don't know. I really don't have any rules. Pride.

It's not like... Pride. Pride. Pride. Yeah. Pretty cool. Leonard Cohen. Worship. Yeah. just amazing.

He's the greatest. He was the greatest. Right. That's kind of one of the cool things about music, though. I was talking to my mother-in-law about that, where it's, at least I know when I die. I have a few ideas of how I want my death to play out. But I kind of want, like, I kind of want my friends to have, you know, first of all, no one should be sad. Second of all, they should probably play the songs that I wrote.

because of like an ego thing, but just because they can go and they can be like, oh my God, when that like just, I think so much of our stories are wrapped up with our lives, you know, and some of our stories are wrapped up in the music that's going on in our lives at the time. And for a writer especially, the fact that you can play out your whole life. Like if you want to know anything about me, just go through the catalog. It'll tell you every step of the way what was going on in my life. When people say that, you know, that music is the soundtrack of our lives, it's like, of your life, you got to be nuts. Like, you know, songwriters, it's like, it's talking about, you know, I'm in a, I was in a parking lot with Nick Jonas and Nolan Lambrosia.

And Nick's talking about sometimes he likes being jealous. That's a real moment in your life that translates into a song that everyone, that people around the country and the world can listen to. and be like, oh, yeah, man, I have jealous reminds me of blank. But Leonard Cohen, going back to that, it's like he had this ability to really kind of capture what seemingly is a moment in his life, even if it took them six years to write that moment, you know? People speak very highly behind your back.

I think I text you sometimes and be like, I'm talking behind your back right now. I think I might literally say that to you. Well, I know we kind of have to wrap up. But one thing that I wanted to say was that, I said after the second time we wrote together, First time we wrote together? I don't remember. But I said that you're one of the best co-writers I've ever met. And at the time you took offense to it a little bit because other people in your life had called you a co-writer as if that's a negative thing.

And I spent my life trying to be a good co-writer because to me a good co-writer is the best compliment you could possibly get. and the people who don't get that are missing the point and they never got it and they didn't understand the value of collaboration and how hard it is to make your co-writers walk away with the best song that they have i can't i can't say enough how much i still don't want to revise it i don't want to say you're the best writer i know i know a lot of great writers but i don't know them any good co-writers And in this music industry, if you want to exist, it's because you can collaborate. And it means because you're a good co-writer. It means you're the one who knows how to make that artist or that fellow writer walk away

being like, that was a great day. And that was a great song. Maybe it's a great song. I don't even give a shit if it's a good song. It's just a matter that it's a good day. But you're an excellent co-writer. And I refuse to let just because some people don't understand. understand what that means and that offended you in the beginning.

Hell no. You're still one of the best co-writers I know, and I can't tell you enough how valuable that is. Thank you for saying that. I've worked really hard to become the writer that I am, and I think that collaboration is one of the most beautiful cures for the loneliness of life, and I live for those shared ideas and moments of breakthrough and honesty and connection. I mean, I also live from my husband and my dog, but I think a lot of writers live for those collaborative moments. I think so too. That makes it so, you know, I'd love for people

to look at your all music or something. Maybe you wouldn't, but I would, because it shows the diversity in the songs that you're able to write, you know, and who you're able to write with. and I just think that that's the biggest compliment that that I can give to another writer is that I think you are one of the best co-writers I've ever met so I'm just going to write some 100% and then I'll talk to you later I'll show you what's up

yeah exactly go back to my bedroom and some songs up by myself like you said all of us have written songs on our own and a lot of us have written songs on our own that have been successful that is not that's not the point the point is that that's great that's awesome that's really that's that's being a that's being a songwriter and that's and i i respect that it's it's totally different it's a different game than being able to walk in a room with people who may or may not know you and walk away with a hit song that can travel the world in a matter of months you can't compete you can't compete in you

with that on your own. Maybe some people can, but like it's not, you know, that doesn't make you a better writer because you can do it on your own. It just doesn't. Ross, when are we doing your interview? You're a podcast segment.

Well, on that note, thank you so much. But listening to Ann, the writer is someday, Simon, you can be the interviewer. Yes, please. But thank you so much for today. And Let's go to some sessions and write some songs.

Yes, please. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at anthwriter.com. If you like what we're doing,

please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe Lundit. edited by Miles Berg's Mo and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and The Writer is. It ain't me happen so fast that, like, it blows my mind. I mean, we were just, we were in a session with Kygo, and we kind of started something else that wasn't too good,

and then Brian picked up the guitar and started playing something, and was going off for this melody. came in at that point, started tweaking and we started going, and then the melodies, it was just like we were on that chorus and it was just magic. Like that song needed to come out of all of us. Like it relates to all of us in so many different ways that it's like all of our story in one song. And it was like just this beautiful combination of like Fleetwood Mac with like just honesty.

And like just that song was, yeah, that was a big moment for us. And I remember like when Kygo came in the room and listened to it for the first time, right after we had written it, just watched his eyes kind of like. It just lit up. Yeah. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.