And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 182: Gracie Abrams

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

Today’s guest is one of the leading young voices in the pop world. With her breakout hit in 2019, this writer instantly connected with listeners, and through hard work and a steady stream of releases, she has built a fiercely loyal fanbase. Her debut album came out in early 2023 and received high praise for its poetic honesty and depiction of the trials and tribulations of growing up. Following this release, our guest had an explosive year: performing as an opening act for Taylor Swift on her Eras Tour and receiving a nomination for Best New Artist at the 66th Grammy Awards. Her single with Noah Kahan marked her first entry on the Billboard Hot 100 and gave the world a glimpse of her superstar power. Her sophomore album is set to release this summer, and we’re so excited to see what more this young artist has in store. And The Writer Is…Gracie Abrams! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Let me tell you about ASCAP. ASCAP is America's only creator-first performing rights organization and the only one that operates on a not-for-profit basis.

They were founded by songwriters, composers, and they're still governed by them today. ASCAP's main job is to pay you royalties when songs you write are streamed, broadcast on radio, or TV, or played live. And they're so good at collecting royalties that in 2023, they distributed a record one point. $1.592 billion to ASCAP members. But they do other things too. In fact, they go to Washington all the time to advocate for your songwriter rights, which is more important than ever in the age of AI.

ASCAP represents over 975,000 members, including this episode's guest, Gracie Abrams. If you are a songwriter or composer, ASCAP is where you belong. You can learn more about joining ASCAP at ASCAP.com forward slash why join and follow at ASCAP on socials. Hey guys, I'm excited to tell you a little bit about one of today's sponsors, peer music.

During a time of intense consolidation in the music industry, peer music's rich legacy is something that can't be bought. Peer music has been family run since it was founded in 1928. From its entrepreneurial roots, the company has grown into one of the largest and most respected independent music publishing and neighboring rights companies in the industry. They have 39 offices in 32 countries,

so they are big enough to help your music reach the entire world. Peer music represents some of the biggest names in music, including our former guest, Poo Bear, David Lee Murphy, David Foster, Nothing But Thieves, Gabby Moreno, Cheyenne, The Tragically Hip, and many, many more. And peer music neighboring rights represents over 300 record labels and more than 3,000 artists including Billy Eilich, Imagine Dragons, Martin Garrick, David Gata, Metallica,

Megan the Stallion, Her and Strom A. Delivering nearly 100 years of music publishing excellence, peer music is a trusted and widely respected leader in our music community. If you want to learn more, I recommend you go to at peer music on all their social media sites and check out peermusic.com. Our good friends at ChartMetric have all the data you need to power your music career, from playlist placements to stream counts, to follower demographics, and many more. It's never been easier to understand how your artists fit in the music industry and how they can grow. Chart metric does the work for you, providing actionable insights and visuals on their up-to-date global data that covers over 10 million artists and 100 million songs. So there's no math required.

Use it to find out things about your favorite artists and any of the artists and writers on this podcast. start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Okay, so excited to have this amendment to our excellent interview that we did that we hadn't released yet with the great Gracie Abrams. It's pretty cool because we usually, when we do updates, usually we do them like a year later, but so much has happened for you in five months that it was it's exciting to to hear all the good things

from from you directly especially because this hour you announced your new album so I mean we're like right in the thick of it you were just starting to record it I think pretty much

or in the middle of recording it when we talked last so tell me a little bit about how does it feel at this very moment releasing something that you've spent so much time on. I'm so stoked. I honestly, genuinely just had, we had so much fun making the whole thing and it happened very quickly. We only wrote the first song kind of like late last fall. So this feels like the fastest turnaround that I've ever experienced in terms of like, you know, the inception of something to the release of something. And it feels kind of good because normally

I find that like by the time something comes out, I already am sometimes. hearing things or I'm like, ooh, I feel like I'm a bit of a different person today than I was when I made that two years ago or whatever. This I feel, you know, I'm in a different place, you know, and I had so much fun writing these stories with some of my most favorite, brilliant friends. But I'm just stoked for it to get out. When we were writing them, it felt like, oh, this needs to be a summer thing. And now it feels like that's kind of creeping up. And I'm grateful and just happy to be talking to you. Thank you for this. Are you nervous? Or are you relieved? Okay, both those. Yeah. Just the like that apparently the kind of

excitement and the nervous feelings come from the same place in your brain. So I, I, you know, I'm probably nervous, but I'm calling it excitement today. It's a, it's a crazy thing once it's out because it's not yours anymore. I'm ready for that. Are you checking social media and checking everything or are you trying to stay away from it? I'm not. Truly the minute that we got on this call, it went up. So aside from having a really beautiful way to direct my energy in this conversation, I also just don't feel great about reading stuff these days. I tend to feel better when I don't do that. How do you actually turn that off? And so many people talk about not doing it and then it's a another thing to actually not do it.

I don't. I feel like I have a physical aversion towards it these days when I open my phone and it's like a subconscious hit Instagram or like open comments or look at DMs. I like actually get like a, oh shit, like almost a wave of nausea feeling just overwhelmed. And also like it takes away sort of from my actual relationships. I just feel like the face-to-face thing is way more for me. And also, even just in terms of communicating with my audience, I've been so blessed to be on the road for the past two and a half years.

So it's like I actually have gotten a lot of FaceTime with people that are generous enough to listen to my music and spend their money and energy coming to a show. So I feel like right now I'm kind of, when there's quiet periods of not being on the road, it's okay for me to like take a step back. It's weird that it takes sometimes, somebody being

recognized in like a celebrity sort of way to recognize how important it is to not be noticed. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like, you know,

it's like to be in a situation where you can be face to face one on one. I mean, obviously we talked about your shows and your tours during the interview, but, you know, the idea that you have to get to, in a way your level of humanity to then say, you know what,

I need just face to face time because it seems like social media is for the people who can't turn it off, who just don't have it in their, like skill set to actually say, okay, I'm actually going to do face-to-face. Like, it's just as important for your fans to be hands-on with the people in front of them

as it is for you. Totally. And I'm sure they do that. You know, I can only speak for myself in terms of what I've, like, noticed. affects my larger my world outside of the job job you know okay so you're uh since

we talked last these are this is how much happens in five months which is bizarre but like uh Grammy nominations going through the whole the whole like amazingness of that I know you did a lot of press around

that but um the the shock of that while working on your next project but in a weird way Grammys are retroactive. They're about what you've done. Yeah.

How did you grapple with going to the studio with the pressure of, you know, the recent accolades? I didn't feel pressure, which I just felt like what a fun, bizarre, unexpected, like, misplaced bonus. Do you know what I mean? Like, I felt like it was this little boost, but genuinely, I think, like, what I, what I have learned about the Grammys is that my favorite part, my favorite part was kind of the weeks leading up when there were these events where you could meet the other people in your category and, like, actually get to know them. And I, it made me cry multiple times sitting by myself or talking about it with my family, just like about how exceptional all the human beings were that were nominated. Like forget the artistry, which is just undeniable. There was something that felt like, I was like, oh, this is really rare, actually.

Like I rarely personally experience gathering with other artists in this capacity where it's like, we're all buzzing a little bit inside and like we can actually acknowledge each other's existence as like people and as musicians and like the energy was just that of pure gratitude and excitement and there was something so pure in that that I think like as an artist and I'm sure you know like as anyone in the industry you're like thinking about your business often and you're thinking about like your next moves and you're touring and you're kind of like, you know, the center of that in many ways. And that's weirdly isolating even when you have a lot of people around you. It was all of a sudden like this wave of relief in knowing that these musicians are first of all getting the recognition that they deserve because like the people nominated in that category like taking myself out of it have been fucking at it for like crushing like crushing.

and like have earned so much more than just this nomination. Like to me, the more I got to know them all as people, I was just like teary constantly about how much I believe each of them deserves. And like, I wish everyone had been able to wait. You know what I mean? Like I was rooting for everyone so hard. Every time I met someone new, I was like, oh, like, this has to go to war and treaty. Or like, this has to go to jelly roll.

Like, this has to go to ice. This has to go to Noah. This has to go to Victoria. It has to go to front. Like, it was just like, you want, like, everything for everyone. And so weirdly, like, that was what I took with me. I felt like when I would go from getting to meet, like, Coco Jones, who's the most fucking radiant person of all time, like, literally, like, an angel.

And then I get to go to the studio and write a song. And I'm, like, thinking about how epic these people are that are doing this thing for, like, work that have been grinding forever that are just so inspiring really so I found that the luckiest part about being included was the opportunity to like not only learn from the other artists that I was lucky enough to hang with but like really just absorb the goodness that they exude and like try to do everything in my power to do my own version of that um it was was so moving and I felt incredibly misplaced and I felt so shocked and you know like I've watched that live stream of nominations every year that they've done it from my couch and like sincerely

from the bottom of my heart like was watching alone in my bed here because I was like not that I couldn't have anticipated less to hear my name and so it was just I was like holy shit like that's fucking crazy like that's just crazy you know and it was lucky and it's also so many of my favorite artists of all time have never been nominated. So you take everything with the grain of salt as well. It's a, it's the most unique category in the Grammys, because it, it is like, you know, it's sort of an acknowledgement of your career as an artist now getting to a certain level. It's not like the album and record and song of the other major categories, which are really about one specific song, one specific moment, and are often a little bit of a, a little bit of a,

popularity contest. This is sort of like the anti-popularity contest because in order to qualify for best new artists, it isn't, when you, if you knew nothing about the Grammys, it's like you assume that these people showed up this year and these, you know,

you don't think of the grind. You don't think, you can be, Brandy Clark I remember being nominated, she's 39. Jelly Rolls 39, you know? I love him. You can be 39 years old and be nominated for a best new artists. It isn't youngest artist. It's a really cool,

diverse category and that's got to be cool. And it's exciting that it inspired some of the songs on the new album, at least while recording it. Just because it's so in real time. I feel like we're really, like you said, this isn't a two-year-old

album. So I think it's exciting to listen to something knowing that what we witnessed over the last few months is some of the energy in the recording and promotion of it on some level. Yeah, I think it's like, I think the main takeaway, I guess, thinking about it now because it's actually cool to think about it. I hadn't kind of really thought about the two, but it's inevitable because I was so moved by everyone that I met.

It's like they, all the artists in that category are so undeniably themselves. And I feel like the reason for their success, especially when you look at, at some of their careers, like, you know, we talk about jelly, for example, like, he's had, like, all different versions of, like, existing in the artist space and being somebody who makes something. And, like, he's so himself, dude. Like, do you know him at all? I don't, I mean, I know his story more than I know him. He's just, like, the most sincere guy, like, genuinely. And, like, I want to make people feel the way that he makes people feel, like, in just his presence, like, being in there, no con.

I fucking adore Noah. Like I adore, I know he just did an episode, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm so excited. Yeah. I mean, he did, we did it, you know, it came out last Monday, two Mondays ago. Oh my God. But he's like, no, no, no, no.

It was like, but same sort of thing. It's like he started out. And it's like when you start out and you're just trying to record and you're in college or friends or whatever, you're just doing the music that your friends do. Yeah. You know, you're trying to do music that your friends like. You're trying to do music that your parents don't like. You're trying to do.

all the things that all of us do and it takes jelly roll to go from being a rapper going to prison to then being like the singer he is it takes Noah you know it like realizing that wait maybe if he's just alone writing on a guitar that he's going to be you know that's the album that we have of his you know it's like I think I think that's so cool

that um you know again I think our impression is that artists show up sounding the way they do and that there's you know But isn't that your impression when you see? No, it is. But it's also like when you know yourself even in the context of like an artist. It's like comical. And I don't know.

I'm so impressed by it. But I also would argue that like a lot of people actually like there are some examples I think of people that that really do have that through line forever and ever and ever. And that is like I'm like what have they unlocked, you know, a little bit? And it's so sick to watch and there's so many amazing success. success stories of people who I feel like there really is such a strong throughline. But I mean, I even look at stuff from last year and I'm like, damn, you know, but it's all about life experience. And I think also being, that's what so much of this new album is about is like being in your 20s and like the extremes that you experience constantly because shit's happening to you and around

you for the first time ever. And it's like obviously if you're someone that's like curious about the world, that's going to inform what you make. That's going to inform what you make. that's going to inform how you speak. It's going to inform like your vocabulary and your relationships and like where you want to be. And like, you know, I don't know. I think it's funny to have been. It's one of the reasons I was like, holy shit, like kind of what am I fucking doing like in this room with these people? Because like I am every day like recently waking up and being like, I don't know anything about me.

I'm just going to like go out and let it all happen and react. accordingly and like try to be kind as possible and like you know I don't know I weirdly I feel like that has a lot of that has has been infused into this songwriting process and with a lot of fun and that has so much to do with the people that I wrote it with and that was a whole new experience as well what's the next step uh for do you I know you've been on tour forever and on and off at least are you are you already going out again this summer? I assume you're going to start. So you have a little bit of time?

I have a little bit of time, but have been in rehearsals and stuff already, which has been sweet because it feels like, first of all, like the, I just the amount of fun that I had making it has, it's been important for me to remember like what that felt like exactly because I've been trying to replicate that feeling in every other lane when normally like the writing and recording process is its own magic where you can like feel it. And then all of the other amazing and bizarre experiences that we have post writing and recording where you like go out into the world with it can feel like less the point or like more uncomfortable and a bit more alien. Even if you've like done it a handful of times, it's like scary and uncomfortable.

And you don't always want to be like, this is exactly. what this song is about. You know what I mean? But I'm trying to have fun with all of it. And I feel like I rewrote this album for live. And it was very influenced by the amount of touring that I have been doing. And so we've started some live arrangements, started messing around with some things. We have some performances this summer, but not a hardcore show till a little later. Are you going to celebrate tonight? Or do you, or is it like celebrate by watching TV by yourself? Like is it, is it what we think it is? I'm going to do, I'm going to, well, but not a thing. I'm going to, my co-writer and best friend and also roommate, Audrey Nobert, who's excellent,

and this is like her first music that's ever coming out into the world. We'd like, she had never written songs before we started doing. Congratulations. I know, go Audrey. You know, it's like, yeah. I mean, it's a huge deal. We all are looking for our, you know, it's not, it's so fortunate for her to have somebody who hears, you know, I remember you mentioning it, you know, hearing what you thought she could do if you guys just wrote together and now it's, you know, it's out in the world. She's so good. Like, she'll be on here one day, I guarantee you.

Like, she's so fucking good. But she and I, she happens to be in New York this weekend. And her brother is an amazing artist who's just started a show. Oh, cool. Like runs in the family. You know what I mean? They've got like things. But we are just going to go get drinks and hang out and talk about it.

I know. It's so we all think, again, we think that it's like it's what you see with, you know, some sort of, we all think that artists do something different than what they actually do. Yeah, like what would your expectation be, though? I feel like it's like that, you know, it's almost like a circus. Like you'd go and there'd be like literal like that's how you would celebrate an album release. But what happens is, yeah, it's like it's like your, but it's a little bit of like being done with a crazy workout or something. It's like you've had like a five, you know, five months, six, seven month like workout and all you want to do is just breathe. Crash and burn a little.

Just crash. Yeah. I mean, it's like when you have your wedding night, usually you go back to the room and everyone thinks that there's certain expectations, which I'm sure that are sometimes met. But I'm sure a lot of it is like ordering chicken fingers and having like, do you know what I mean? Yeah, like I think the expectations that the party always goes on. But instead it's like maybe it's. How do you celebrate? Like when you've had those big ones, like what are you?

even um uh you know we did like the last big sort of release we did uh we rented out a studio and people came and and we like shut off the lights and everyone listened to it

oh wow it was like a moment yeah yeah like tried to give like that and then you know but it's not like a a blowout but it was I don't know then there's like you know if you do uh the an opening night of a of a show of like a music thing. Then it's a little bit of a blowout, but it usually closes, it usually ends at 11 p.m.

And you're like, it's a blowout for like, you know, five seconds. For adults. Well, I mean, I would, we could keep this going on forever, but your interview is so good. So I know we're going to jump to that. Okay, sweet. I apologize for anything I said that like, maybe I'm a different person already. Who knows? Well, I mean, look, this is, we're going to just end up, well, let's just redo, we'll do this interview in six months after your, after the album's out. And it's going to, you know, it's been out. And you'll now look at that and you'll say, wow, I can't believe I wrote that song.

Man, when I did that, I was just a kid, you know. I know, it's true, though. Like, let's be real about it. Like, 24. That's the youngest stage you could ever be, right? Is that right? I don't know. Is that true?

All right. Well, congratulations. Thank you very much. I'm really grateful. Thank you, Ross. For the best. There you go. Welcome to End the Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan.

Today's guest is one of the leading young voices in the pop world. With her breakout hit in 2019, this writer instantly connected with listeners and through hard work and a steady stream of releases, she has built a fiercely loyal fan base. Her debut album came out earlier this year and received high praise for its poetic honesty and depiction of the trials and tribulations of growing up, which explains why she's been on tour opening for that artist, what's her name? Ah, yeah, Taylor Swift.

From Los Angeles, California, this woman is proving to be one of the best artists of this generation, and the writer is Gracie Abrams. That is so nice and generous of you to say. Hi, I'm so grateful to be here. It's hurting me on the inside. Oh, that's strange with that, like, how to, fathom what that is to hurt on the inside because of a...

Anyway, okay, so, look, you have a very public childhood, and one of the things that I want to, shouldn't maybe not childhood, but lineage. And we always talk about where people come from. Tell me about your childhood. Well, it felt super deeply, normal. I am really lucky to be close with my whole family. I have two brothers that I fought with constantly growing up and they're my best friends now. And I have admired my parents forever just

based on the way that they are two people in the world. And I feel like that was just, I feel like as I've gotten older, I've realized that to have a foundation with your feelings, family, like one that is reliable, and that's kind of like the luckiest thing in the entire world, and I have felt that just resonate every single day of my life since, like, leaving my family's house and going off and doing

my own thing. Yeah, deeply close with all of them. Who did music in your house? My dad. My dad is the only one who knows how to play an instrument. What does he play? He kind of can play all sorts of,

sorts of things and kind of picks it up by ear. But I was lucky because he cared about that before I had any concept of what it was to make music. So your brothers didn't get it? Absolutely not. Really? Zero percent. No way. What is zero percent?

Zero percent in that like neither of them know. Neither of them, I think, are drawn to it even. And they're fans. We're all fans of music. I feel like growing up there was so much music in the house that everyone appreciates it. What kind of music was in the house? My mom loved Joni Mitchell and Carol King, and that was kind of like my... That makes sense.

My bass line. Yeah, that's like North Star and like Patty Griffin, who is my favorite writer. And then my dad, like Elvis Costello and like yellow and like, you know, all that. I mean, all this makes sense. It's weird because I have a two-year-old and we choose choosing what kind of music to play. It's like there's a minimum amount of... of, you know, the wheels on the bus that you can have going on in a house. And then there's like, and then you choose, like, what kind of music do you want this human to develop their life around?

Because do you remember what the first song is that you sang? No, but I also wasn't singing. I wasn't, like, singing. Do you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't. You weren't like a musical theater kid? Absolutely not. even though, well, I mean, I think like Lion King in the car and that shit.

Like that I loved and appreciated and was sound of music, like all that. But I wasn't, I was not like a stage kid. I wasn't like eager to tell anyone that I loved writing. For me, it was writing. It wasn't singing growing up. Did you write, did you journal? Did you write lyrics first? Journaling, like religiously.

Journaling obsessively. And kind of. kind of probably, I mean, I see it entirely, obviously now is a massive advantage. It's also like these time capsules and I have so many journals. Do you go back and read baby versions of you? Totally. I do, I feel like once every like a couple years, I'll do like a deep dive. Yeah, because it's so funny. And it's like you change so radically when you're, I mean, all the time, I hope forever, but just especially growing up, it's like a week or a month can feel like years and years and years of changes

and to have that kind of like immortalized is terrifying and hilarious and has helped my writing for sure but did somebody say hey here's a diary you should write in it? Yep my third grade teacher she had us she had us write and she would check

the dates at the top of our entries to make sure it was consistent and actually the first time I remember writing a song was when I lost my journal that I was supposed to keep in third grade and it was like so important to me. It was like a tiny little, like, so shitty. It was this tiny, like, it was like the size of my palm, one of those, like, note pads, kind of. And I lost it, and I cared about it so much, and I wrote so

much in it, whatever. But I lost it, and I was so disappointed, and I was privileged enough to have a couple instruments in the house and drums in the garage. And I, like, remember letting it all out on the drums and, like, screaming, like, truly, like, a maniac, but screaming and felt like, oh, this felt good. I should learn how to do it in a way that's like a little more graceful. Well, you said that you wrote a song like that? Yeah, I wrote a song. So were you playing drums and writing a song? What's the song called?

There was no title, but it was very like angry. How does it go? I would be disappointing your listeners. No, you wouldn't. No, it was some version of like literally I hate myself. Where is my journal? Where is my journal? I mean, that could be a title.

Maybe that's the thing. Yeah, that's actually my sophomore album. Yeah. That's the title track. I hate myself. Where's my journal? Yeah. It's funny, though, only because the interviews, people will be like, wow, that's really intense.

Are you okay? And you're like, no, no, I'm fine. I wrote that when I was in third grade. And it was like a callback. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you ever, when you're having a dearth of inspiration, have you ever gone back to your journals and said, you know what? I'm going to write this for third grade me.

No, I've never gone there emotionally. I mean, third grade is like probably harder. But like, you could go to high school version or a college version and be like, oh yeah, you know what? I feel like as I've gone further in the business and in my life in general, going back to younger me during the hardest times and to thank that person for, just like how many times do you want to go back and say

it's okay that you lost your journal don't hate yourself you know and even that even if you wrote a song right now about it's okay you'll find your journal should we do it right now the song should be like it would be like

you'll find the words that's sweet that's why you're so successful is because you're good at this no that this is not my point I know, but separately. But seriously, you could, the idea of, there are very few people, the reason why I'm saying is because I don't know

that many people who journal well. That breaks my heart. And I know that that's true. And I feel like any time I've had a conversation, like anytime I've been at a show, at shows we have these, like an hour prior to every show. There's like this ticket upgrade. And it's basically like, you know,

the 100 or 200 people or something that come and we have basically a long-form conversation. Like, we talk about whatever. And it's my favorite thing in the world. I feel so lucky to be able to, like, have access to my listeners in that way where we're kind of face-to-face and we talk about their lives and whatever they want to know about me. And I've gotten the question a few times about, like, I'm a songwriter and I want to really be a songwriter out in the world. And I always, I feel like my answer is so repetitive and kind of boring, but it is always journaling

because I've felt that it's, like, the most important tool I've ever, outside of, you know, reading books and obviously listening to other music but really reading books because I feel like that's what broadens your vocabulary most immediately and also for me the storytelling element of songwriting is the reason that I love this and I'm so grateful I get to do it because it just fuels it like fuels my soul I don't know how else to describe it like what books do you tend to read fiction, nonfiction? Do you tend to write it both? I read a... I read a lot of poetry right now and I've been reading a lot of plays and that's been

so fun because of the dialogue and I feel like recently the songs that I've been writing just even in the past like month or two have been very conversational and I think a lot of that has to do with what I'm just consuming like the plays. of, you know, how much of your family's entertainment sort of connections, how much of that influenced you not doing that? Like, if you're talking about reading plays, which makes me think, you probably should write scripts, not music, you know? Why?

It is funny. You read books. Why aren't you? I mean, you're choosing to do the things that are away from television film. Yeah. Is that? Did you ever... I mean, that, I didn't know.

It's funny to, like, that was intentional growing. It's like, that wasn't on the table. I'm, like, in elementary school. It's not like you're going to, like, dive into... It was, well, my... Growing up, it was very... It wasn't, like, it didn't feel like a significant part of my everyday, knowing that my dad was, you know,

either, like, off writing somewhere or on set making something. Like, that wasn't... That did not occupy space in my household at all. It felt very much like he was going to do his job and he came home, same as my mom. So it didn't have the kind of immediate kind of like influence, I think, that people might assume, which is like a totally fair assumption, but just wasn't really the reality for my family. And obviously growing up in L.A., I knew other families who worked in similar circles, where for them it was way more at the forefront,

and that was super unattractive to me. I remember growing up feeling like embarrassed just by the conversation at all. And I also wasn't raised watching anything that my dad made. It wasn't like ever. So kids, I remember in elementary school, I just remember sometimes, like, kids would ask me about something that my dad may have done,

done that I had no idea about and feeling like I want nothing to do with this conversation ever. Though, of course, like, it's my dad. Yeah, I'm like, it's my, but like, and yes, like, of course I'm, there's like, proud of, it's not even, I'm, I'm more just like, I'm, I'm happy for him in his life that he got to do the thing that he loved growing up. And I think in terms of how that rubbed off on me, aside from the obvious privilege of growing up in a city where it's not a far-fetched idea to, follow your passion if it is in some like if it's in the entertainment business in whatever way

that being said like they were never it was a combination of them being whatever the opposite of like a stage parent is and me feeling um really grossed out and afraid at the concept of them having anything to do with what I wanted to do and um so I remember growing up just feeling very anti-film and TV, whatever that meant. Even if I love, like, I love writing script. In college, I went to Barnard, and I took a screenplay class and playwriting and like literally love it so much, because again, it's storytelling. And for me, songwriting wasn't even the first version of storytelling, journaling was. So it's storytelling for me. And then I think it was the thing of no one else when I'm, you know, 12 years old writing. No one else is going to sing my song. So I'm just

going to like start doing it. I feel like I'm rambling and I don't know what the question even. No, no, you're answering all kinds of questions. Do you, talking about going back to you reading plays and using or books, do you have any aspiration to write a play at this point? I mean, I definitely, I don't imagine. You have such interesting skill sets to be able to tell a story in short form in a song and then to be able to understand. say long-form storytelling in a play, sounds like there's like occupations for that. Like, I don't know, a composer does musicals.

Totally. I mean, I don't want to, like, I think, I feel so, I'm so grateful that I have been able to do what I have at this point. And that is my, I doubt, like, songwriting is at the top of my, like, love list when it comes to storytelling today. but I also, I think that storytelling in general is such a tool, and there's no, like, hopefully, if I'm lucky, like, yes, I would love the, not even, like, you need someone to give you permission to go and do it.

Like, I write stories all the time, you know, but privately, and, like, they've not seen the light of day, but I love to do it, and, yeah, I would be a dream. If you're a songwriter or composer, you have to join a performing rights organization, organization or PRO. Performance royalties are an essential part of your income. If not, your only income. ASCAP is America's first PRO and the only one that operates on a not-for-profit basis, which means the money they collect goes to their songwriters, composers, and music publishers, not outside investors, not big corporations. And ASCAP supports you in a lot of different ways, even beyond the royalties. They run workshops, panels, and networking events all the time.

time. They've got tons of resources on their website to help you learn about the music industry. They've even got a wellness program. I really respect that ASCAP is a true democracy. ASCAP members elect their board of directors and the board is made up of music writers and publishers like you. They've got over 975,000 members, including our guests, Gracie Abrams. You can learn more about joining ASCAP at ASCAP.com forward slash why join and follow at ASCAP on socials. Hey guys, Peer Music is a leading music publishing and neighboring rights company that has been championing songwriters and artists for nearly 100 years.

Their musical journey began with a revolutionary ANR man named Ralph S. Pier, who is widely credited with the first Latin recording, the first blues recording, and of course the Big Bang of Country music, the Bristol Sessions. Peer Music has built their company on their unwavering devotion to music creators and performers, and to this day, is still championing songwriters and promoting songs of cultural importance. Pure Music represents some of the biggest names in music, including our former guest, Pooh Bear, David Lee Murphy, David Foster, Nothing With These, Gabby Moreno, Cheyenne, the Trague, and many, many more. And peer music neighboring rights represents

300 record labels and more than 3,000 artists, including Billy Eilish, Imagine Dragons, Martin Garrick's, David Gat, Metallica, Megan the Stallion, Her, and, and strome. So, if you want to learn more about a global music publishing and neighboring rights company that moves with integrity and treats their roster like family, go check out peer music.com or follow them on social media at peer music. Our good friends at Chartmetric have all the data you need to power your music career, from playlist placements to stream counts, to follower demographics, and many more. It's never been easier to understand how your artists fit in the music industry and how they can grow.

Charm metric does the work for you, providing actionable insights and visuals on their up-to-date global data that covers over 10 million artists and 100 million songs. So there's no math required. Use it to find out things about your favorite artists and any of the artists and writers on this podcast. plans start as low as $10 a month Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com In third grade you write this song, you're playing drums I hate myself and where is my journal There's a big jump from that

To you know what I'm now going to intentionally write songs So it felt good to hit drums Yellow a song when did you start saying I'm going to start doing this instead of journaling because that starts to take away from it was never an instead

it's always happening at the same time always and like I have my journal here like it's always with me and that's probably just a dangerous thing and I should stop doing it just because I'm like what if one day you lose it?

What if I lose it again at 24 Anyway, no, but I can't remember whether I asked to take piano lessons or it was suggested to me by my mom. But I was lucky enough to have a piano in the house growing up and I would mess around with it all the time. And then I had this really amazing piano teacher for a very short period of time named Michael Lord, who's awesome. and I actually like sort of reconnected with him this past year he came to my show in L.A. At the Fonda and it was like so trippy to see him. But really, I was so, it was really, really cool. And he's, I do owe him a lot, I think, because he saw that I really cared about this thing.

But I also wasn't like, I don't how to read music. I don't know. I'm not very proficient in terms of like beyond playing things by ear. I'm... You're not really in the music theory and all that. Not at all. And I want to. I was watching the Rosalia hot ones.

And she was talking about how her understanding of music theory just allows her to have a broader imagination and be able to like immediately translate what's in her head, which was so inspiring instantly. And I've kind of since then been like, shit, I need to be more like Rosalia. But for every reason ever. She's just, she's just,

She's my favorite. I've never met her, but her music's incredible. She's just a dream of a person. But anyway. I mean, it's not really too late to, every time you listen to, if you spent a half hour doing some sort of music theory, something,

the way your mind works is you'll probably, you'll be like, oh, you know what? I could have used that in this song and I can use that in that song. You won't even get through the class before I can use this tool. Do you feel that way when you listen back to songs that you've written

were do you ever like wish you did something else? Or do you are you able to, yeah. I had a song that came out about maybe like six months ago and it was on 40-something new music Fridays throughout the world. You know, it was really hyped up artist. And the artist and her manager really wanted to get rid of the post after the first chorus.

And I think that that choice is the downfall of that song. Oh, no, that hurts to hear. Because I think structural, and this gets into like just song composition versus, as I said, like there's a big difference

between good music and good song. And some of the discipline that goes in composition is this is about serving fans. All of this is about fans. Like, if you, the entire music industry should be in the service business of the audience. And if their expectations are that they're going to get certain things, if you don't give them that, then they will immediately choose something where they will be satisfied. Interesting.

It doesn't mean that you have to placate. You don't have to be, you don't have to dumb down. you just you walk into a museum and you expect to see good art within four 90 degree angles and when it's not then you're like

oh I get it that's art that also is art I just am not going to put on my walls and the geniuses are the ones that can take the expected you know

canvas and do something you've never seen before on it that's the good writer that's the good artist is someone where you give the the audience what they expect and then twist it so they're like wow I didn't even I knew

I got what I wanted but I'm not what I expected maybe if that makes sense yeah it makes complete sense and so I feel like I'm constantly going back and seeing which songs didn't work and you know the alternative is true which is I definitely have had a song or two work

where I still don't get why that one that's a mystery but that's a mystery but that's so fun, I can imagine. So when did you start realizing that the songs that you were writing were good? I don't think they were good for a very long time. I guess when did you say to somebody, it's one thing that started practicing piano, it's another one to be like, I don't know,

did you play for your family? Do you play for your friends? No, dude, it was literally like, no, absolutely not. I didn't play it for anyone until I started. It was this weird jump of like, What was the first song where you're like, oh, I'm going to practice this one until it's good? I mean, I would do, the thing, my, like, routine with songwriting was, was, it was constant journaling. It was often, like, there was a core feeling at the end of any entry, and I would often then go sit and write a song.

And I had these, like, lined, yeah, like, these, like, ruler notebooks that were at the piano. and the piano is in kind of like the main room in the house, there weren't any like doors that you could close. So anytime I heard anybody walking through, I would stop playing. Like I wasn't playing for anyone. What I loved about it was what I found in journaling also, which was that at the end of writing, I always felt better. I felt like clearer.

I felt like I had processed something, even if it was just like a small percentage of the thing. It was like it just helped me feel like I could like, move on. And I think I, as we all do, but I think I was like probably as like just the writer side of me as a kid was like, all feelings were big feelings. Like everything was felt to the fullest extent. And if I could translate that somehow so that it wasn't just all bubbling up internally, that was, I felt like successful and fulfilled. And the, the, the, the, the, the, songs that I remember caring about that were fully written. It was like I was never playing them

for other people, but eventually in like middle school, when everyone else was getting like Instagram and shit when that started popping up, I wasn't allowed to. And I turned to SoundCloud and was, I just became obsessed with SoundCloud. And I would read all of the comments, you know, like how on a song you can comment at any point. And there's like a username and a profile picture and a comment. And I would read like all of the comments on artists' pages that I fell in love with. And that felt like a version of social media to me. And there was this amazing quality of you don't have to look at anybody's face

when you're uploading something or it can just like exist and then you can walk away, like close your computer, whatever it is. And so that was kind of where I started sharing my original music first. What's the first thing you put up? I think it was a cover of a Phoebe Bridger's song. And did the rest of, did your friends know about it? No, I wasn't, it was not like, I wasn't. So you kept it to yourself?

Yeah, it wasn't, I mean, I also, like didn't have. How were you recording it? On, just like voice memos. Yeah, but not, you don't need social media to call your friends and be like, hey, check this out. But I wasn't trying to be like, check this out. It wasn't about, I was not like, it wasn't even in school and stuff, there were, there were band opportunities and all that and I was never jumping at it. I did like the plays and stuff I loved, I did love that and I loved the community aspect, but I didn't have like a musical

community growing up. But most, what's your love language? Probably acts of service now, I guess. It's so interesting because I would say 95% of the people I would talk to on this would say it's words of affirmation

Not me at all At all The artist who At all Is putting up music But isn't concerned about their friends Or family saying Hey good job

Yeah I guess that's weird and like That's really unusual Why do you do it? For myself Actually, when you were talking about how everything is for the fans when you were saying that, I just wanted to ask the follow-up of like when you're writing a song, are you thinking about how other people are going to consume it the whole time? No, well, okay, so if my job is in the service of my co-writers, right?

If we're going to, if the pyramid is the fans first, The artist is second. And if we serve the fans well of the artist, then the artist will be able to communicate best with their... Part of that process is your ability to communicate to the fans, to your specific fans, to give them something that is an experience. And if you do that well where you feel like

you're being able to tell your truth in a way that's consumable best by them... Totally. then all the co-writers, producers, engineers, they all will reap the benefits of that, the publishers, the labels, all those people will reap the benefits of that. But it only works if we first serve the fans, I think. And some of that means that when you're telling your truth,

how can you do that in a way that they will listen? Right. Do you know what I mean? It's in a way if I used to think my job was only to serve the artist and I think sometimes that puts

the artist in a place where they're wondering why the fans aren't hearing this song and that's because we didn't put the fans first that's just a fascinating psychological element going in of just thinking about it's kind of like you have to have a

you have to I mean not necessarily study because often I'm sure the artists that you work with you have like a close relationship with and you know them very well so it's not like you're like having to dig deep to uncover this information but to to know to have the full context of what the world of an artist looks like as as a collaborator and a writer someone who's not face to face with their audience all the time that's just fascinating to me that's cool I I'm not and again the only way it works is if it's honest and if it's good of course it's like all the things that you know artist has to

you're doing what's so amazing is you're you're spending an hour before the show having a conversation with fans that's already you're already literally having that conversation yeah well they're so generous with their time and the their vulnerability is pretty mind-blowing to me and has helped kind of like sort of restore my faith in humanity a little after the past couple years especially where we've all gone through our own versions of like our worlds turning upside down and and and um feeling so disconnected i feel like to have um like pre pandemic i never played a show i had never played a show at all and then um after covid being all of a sudden in rooms with people that i had never met before but felt like i understood so

immediately, that was pretty wild and is so due to their willingness to open up and also I don't know, it very immediately makes the songs not about me, which is awesome. I think that's the thing,

right? Yeah, that's like everything you're suggesting about the process. Even if you're writing for yourself, by yourself, you know, there's still, in the end, if it was only for that, you wouldn't upload it.

Well, but it's weird, though, because only in the past two years has that become my reality. Like, three, two years ago, I had never been in the same room as someone who cared about my music or listened to, you know what I mean? Like, to my knowledge. Like, it wasn't like... How bizarre is it, by the way, when you are, you see the... It doesn't matter if you see a hundred people or a million people who stream a song. All of that doesn't, it doesn't really mean much more. It doesn't connect at all.

It doesn't connect. It means nothing. And you can't explain that. In COVID, you'd see these crazy numbers on songs. And it would be very... It's not really that difference fulfilling-wise if 75,000 or 75 million people stream a song. It really isn't.

It's only until you see the line outside. Yeah. And you're like, oh. And that's only, you know, whatever, 5,000 people. Right. It's tricky. You know? Yeah.

And it's so trippy. It's super trippy. Before we get to that, so let's jump ahead a little bit. What makes it a career? What moved it to a career from, you know, I'm writing songs, I'm putting stuff up on SoundCloud. You know, tell me the journey of how you get from that

to recording sort of real music, releasing real music. I don't want to say real music. I guess, you know, sort of in this system. Yeah, well, I guess I had met with, it was kind of like I was posting these things and I would get these like DMs from a shit ton of like creepy, crazy people and then like sprinkled in every once in a while. There would be someone who like maybe actually works in the music business.

And it was, I remember just growing up as I started putting things on the internet, sometimes like going to my mom and being like, look at this person. Like, look what they said. And she's like, it doesn't like put your phone away. Like, you know, stop talking about it. Not stop talking about this, but just like you're, you know, 15 years old. You're not going to go like get a, you're not going to have a coffee meeting with this like executive or some shit. Like it was, there wasn't, that wasn't on the table.

Do you know if any of those executives were like, oh, it was Jimmy Iveen? Like, do you know. I couldn't tell you that, you know what I mean? Like going back, you're like, oh, my God, Michael Jackson, really? Like, I, she didn't know. Actually, there's probably so many that she wouldn't want you to send to have coffee with. Regardless, it was definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was definitely like, it wasn't, it wasn't like as soon as there was an opportunity. It wasn't like, I was like, I was like, jump. jumping to go, like, dive in. Your parents were sort of anti-stage parents. They were anti-ya, of course. And I think also, like, didn't necessarily have, beyond their kid being passionate about something, I don't know what you could think as a parent

when your child is, like, doing something that, where there's all these, like, implications. Or it's a very, like, grown-up path for a kid. It's this weird thing where you're sort of thrown in immediate. Like, I remember, I guess, okay, to answer your question, kind of like, I ended up getting coffee with, like eventually, when I was like a little older, with this woman that had reached out who there was like a mutual friend involved.

So it was kind of like, okay, this is safe to like have a conversation, did that. And then I went and started sort of taking these meetings. Like I would sit, I sat at like Apple and played them demos and things and like that kind of. alone like it was very I didn't know what I was doing I just like tried to be kind of quiet

and listen and learn voice note with piano yeah it was literally like guitar demos in my room like voice memos and then and then yes like recording demos with Blake at the time

like in his parents attic you know how did you mean Blake through our friend Charlotte when we were our kids got it yeah crazy our former guest, Blake, what's up, bro? What's up? So you meet Blake, you go and you record in his parents' house.

And he was like incredibly just kind of changed, I mean for many reasons, but like changed my whole world and was the first person that I knew who was like my age, who was equally deeply passionate about this thing. And, you know, his version of that looked different than mine. to a degree, you know, like, he, I'm not a producer. I don't know how to use all the equipment, but, like, it was so instrumental to my life, but also my writing, like, collaborating with someone in that way.

It was kind of like the first time, I mean, it was 100% the first time that I felt like, all right in front of you, like, sure. You know what I mean? And that is, yeah, that's really interesting. That is a big... Before that, you wrote all the songs by yourself. Oh, yeah, like, in the most, like, whatever felt the most isolated, possible. That was what I was doing prior to meeting room. Do you like

writing, do you like co-writing now? I do when it's the right person, but like, you know, I still sometimes, like, I still feel strange if I'm like going and meeting a producer for the first time. And like it feels like a speed dating session. You're kind of like, I'm definitely far more confident walking in a room feeling like, even if I don't articulate myself perfectly, I have a good enough idea of who I am that I'm, I'm not worried about, like, humiliating myself. Like, it'll be okay. Yeah, but, but I've loved co-write, my, my best friend and roommate, she is a screenwriter. She's, like, my favorite writer ever.

And she and I, as of the past month and a half-ish, just started writing songs together. She'd never written a song. Wow. And we are writing like my favorite music I've ever made right now. And it is the easiest, most exciting, like, most kind of like a freeing experience I've felt writing music. And it's so fun and it's different and it's like the way we speak to each other. So I feel like when I listen to these songs, it's like it's like a side I think that I have not yet even considered showing. Yeah, it is fascinating. I hope maybe one day she'll be on this podcast. She's so fucking good.

Sorry, am I? Yeah, you're allowed. Wait, so she, um, her name's Audrey Hobart and she's, I'm, what's up Audrey? Yeah, what's up Audrey? So she, is she allowed?

I don't know why she said she's a, she's not allowed out of the apartment. It's super, uh, yeah, that's fascinating. One, um, it's cool that you guys just had a moment where it was like, hey, we want to try writing a song together. It's always, it was like a joke. We were sitting, you know, and I always have like my guitar around. We were joking around about something.

And we're like, oh, this song is so good. And who, then you go to your, you'll find a producer to join in. Well, actually, she's coming with me to Aaron's, Aaron Duzner. She's coming with me to his studio in like a week, which is going to be just the funniest time of my life. I love that. So before we get to Aaron, you. I guess having, you know, again, you're recording these, Blake wasn't Blake yet at the time either when you got,

or it was just starting out. Right, yeah. Not not, but you guys were both kind of coming up together. You play, people, you start having these meetings. It's a big jump from that to, I'm signing a record deal with Interscope. How does John Janick, how does Interscope, How does Interscope get involved in your career?

Well, they're amazing. First of all, I feel like so, so lucky to have such a solid relationship with my label. And I feel they are very different just in the way that they do their business. It feels like they are deeply invested in not only the careers of the artists that they support, but just the quality of life for everyone. they're very generous and like hands off in the ways that you would hope for a label to be but also very hands on in the ways that you would hope for a label to be but I met with them I think the first time when I was like 16 and I definitely knew I didn't want to sign anything

anywhere because I felt constantly just aware of how young I was and any kind of like term with like grown-ups that have been doing music for longer than I've been alive. Freaked me out. And I knew I was always like deeply, deeply excited about going to college. Like whatever that meant, I was just really thrilled the concept of leaving home and being somewhere else. And so... Did being in New York change your...

Yes. The way you wrote? Yes, definitely. I think having a, you know, a dorm room where you're like three feet, away from your roommate's bed, even just having a space where it's not like appropriate to like whip out the guitar whenever you feel like. I changed the way that I write and that I started writing without music a lot more. I would like, I remember like I just would record the sounds around the city or I would find places that were not my bedroom where I like to write. Just like,

kind of just being outside of your comfort zone and adapting to that and kind of whatever. But yeah. So then after my first year of college, I took a leave of absence, signed to Interscope, and then started releasing music. Do you still feel like you'll finish college? I 100% want to go back.

I don't know when, but I remember when I was leaving, I was like at the Bursor's office, and Barnard is the greatest community ever, but they were like, we had someone come back. She was 80, like, come back whenever you want. You know, they're incredibly supportive. it's funny to have only been there for a year and still feel as kind of close to them as I do. It's, it is. Yeah, it's all, it's an all women's college. Is that by choice?

Yeah, 100%. I went to an all-girls high school as well and really appreciated what that did for me as a person and, you know, didn't assume I would go to an all women's college. I was looking elsewhere, but as soon as I walked on campus, there was like this familiar kind of, you just wanted to be like all of the women that were walking around and it felt it just felt immediately right and I'm lucky to have gotten the opportunity to be there for as long as I did why do you think all the good songwriters of not just your generation I think in general

if we really look at artists who write their own music most of them are women they don't get credit for it there's this idea that somehow that if they write with a man that they have this like Sven Gali like this

that they're the ones pulling the strings or whatever but it's not real and in this generation it's really loud you got like there's like this whole movement of really strong

female writers you guys are really strong writers period full stop happens that there's also this that they're also women you know yeah and then

what is it about this generation that is so supportive of female writers well I think that it's very obvious that my generation were standing on the, we're lucky enough to stand on the shoulders of women that have

not been appreciated for their writing and ways that that they should have been and I think I just know that the female perspective is so rich and there is so much to pull from and I think we've not always had a place where we can express our experiences and be bold and loud about our feelings and to you know writing about your life is such a like a it's just an incredibly

powerful thing to do and I feel like the reason why I think that the reason why female songwriters are as successful maybe as they are today is because there is so much exposure to we're lucky to have all of this exposure now kind of all these different platforms to share it.

And like people are maybe just recognizing that it's undeniably great. And there's kind of like, I think people are just finding the good shit. And I think it's coming from women. I'm not surprised by it. And I feel really lucky to grow up in a time where I have so many women I can look to

and like just bow down to. Is there like a master like chat chain of like, the, because I think it was like two years ago, all the rock Grammy nominations were, or alternative rock were all women, you know? Like, I feel like there's got to be right now, there's got to be like a chain of like 20 of you guys being like, like sharing music. I feel like everyone knows each other because you guys, and I mean that like literal. Like I feel like you guys all really genuinely know each other. Yeah. Yeah. And like community.

communicate. It's really exciting because even you see in social media, you see a lot of people saying, like, I love this song, even if they didn't write it. No, there's such a supportive thing. There's genuine support these days, which like I think even growing up listening to like, I felt like that wasn't what, and obviously I don't even, who knows, I don't believe it to be true because I, being lucky enough now to have, you know, to have met and gotten to know so many of the artists that I grew up loving. I just remember there was always just this narrative

up until recently that all of these female artists that were at the top of their game, just hating each other. And it's such bullshit. It's just all the shit that men are like, I heard she said a thing. And it's just the... It's the exact opposite has probably always been true in the music business,

but it is so... If the young... If the male artists were to communicate with such a... affection and with such sincerity with each other, that community would thrive longer and be more robust and would have tours where they support each other and all this. If guys could look a little bit at how strong. That would be a great starting place, wouldn't it, for them to take notes?

No, but I do, I do, yes, there's such an actual, there does feel like. an actual sisterhood. I'm not even kidding. And honestly, having gotten off just this year with the Ares tour, the artists that Taylor brought

on her tour, that was such a life altering, not, I mean, for all reasons, but I just mean, like, in terms of getting to know other artists and feeling so supported and connected to them. And so moved by

their shows and moved by the way that they and their crew are as people, I feel so lucky to have had such like a front row seat to the way that these women and folks run their businesses. And I, you know, again, having not grown up with like a real community in terms of like just the music side of my life, it was very isolated. I wasn't like seeking out connections through music. music. Now I feel like I have just in the past couple years made relationships with people that have the same kind of fascination that I do with storytelling and that are so good at their

jobs. I feel like I'm constantly learning from the women in my life and in the industry that are crushing it as hard as they are. When you said that starting to right in front of people felt normal when you started working with Blake and so that kind of opened up something. You guys obviously had an intimate relationship. How did, how was it writing the songs that were less positive about somebody in a relationship? Not everything is rosy in a relationship. Yeah. Was, is it hard to write a song that is like, I don't like you with somebody who,

even just as, it's like, it's got to be really strangely uncomfortable sometimes to be like, this is like I'm feeling a certain way. Isn't it hard to open up in a way with someone that you're in a relationship with? You know, it wasn't. It wasn't. The thing like about Blake is that I think like you were saying he wasn't Blake yet at the time.

It's like he's always, was always going to do what he's doing now. Like his kind of like approach to collaborating with the people that he's worked with, myself included, there's such openness. I think it's one of the many reasons he's as,

successful as he is is because there wasn't like there really wasn't ego attached to what I brought to the sessions sometimes like or there never was ego and sometimes the things that I would bring would you'd assume like maybe maybe he'd question this line or feel you know X, Y, Z. I never felt that and I feel so lucky to have had my primary relationship with my first real collaborator be one that was kind of just so

understanding of the gig and of course knew me so well and I think knew what came with the territory to a degree like if you're close with a writer

they might write about you that is like the nature of the job and I think it's I think he also had an understanding of, you know, it's like, well, these things are true for me. If they're true for me, they're probably true for someone else. And to be able to, like, just let that, like, live and breathe. He was great at doing that. He still is, of course. After the success of Mina and stay in particular, did you start enjoying the idea that, that people were consuming it? Was there ever a point where it's

like, this isn't for me anymore? Or was it, or was it, or was it, or was it, it only until after COVID when you went out and we're like, I see these people? Was it to see, because I kind of projected a little bit, like you see these numbers and you don't know what it's really like. No, you're right in that. You were, that's how I felt. I didn't know what to do with it because I didn't feel like, it didn't feel tangible, really. And I think not until really this past year have I felt like I've had a grip on myself enough

to like confidently. stand behind the music that I've put out in the world. I feel like it's sometimes like mildly tortured by the fact that I started releasing music. I like truly regret nothing about it and it all has helped of course like get me to the place that I am today, not just in terms of like where I'm at in my career, but just as a writer as a person, et cetera. But I do, I was definitely going through a sticky time in my life when I started working with all of these grownups in the music industry and when I started listening to them sometimes maybe a little too much or when something felt rushed or when I, you know, and and and and, like all of all of that. And so I feel like,

I feel like there was never a point where I was like, I don't know if I like this. like this being making music and writing and producing and you know that i have always been super clear since the second i was lucky enough to do it i was like i love this and i want to do it forever and whatever like helps with the longevity of that i like sign me up but i definitely did feel um a number of times uncomfortable out of place confused disappointed just in internally and that is weird when it then goes online and other people that you don't know are attached to it or assume that you love it as much as they, you know.

And I feel like I feel like I've changed so much in the past like two, three years that it's funny to be at shows now and have someone ask me to play a specific song that I'm like, oh, I have this really weird feeling associated with it because those couple months sucked. for whatever reason. And what I appreciate so much about being able to share a physical space with people that I'm connected to because of the music.

I'm like, they've allowed me to associate these new memories with these songs to feel like, yeah, okay, maybe when I released Stay, it wasn't the song that I felt like putting out, maybe. That's cool, but it actually doesn't matter anymore because it has existed in the world. It has a life of its own. It actually belongs to them, not me. Yeah, not yours anymore.

a huge relief ultimately. And I think has, you know, prior to playing shows, I never thought about anybody except for myself when I would write, which sounds selfish. But it was really just because it was an entirely personal outlet rather than something that I connected, like, other people's lives and experiences too. I just, but now, now I'm, I'm far more conscious of what you were talking about, where you're like you want to serve your audience, you want to give them, you want to give them what they want inside the, inside the context of like what you know is real for you.

And so now I, yeah, yeah, rambling. You know, having 2019, 2020, obviously, you know, the EP has some massive success with 21 and I miss you, I'm sorry. And, you know, then doing unlearn with Benny, It's like you have all these moments of success in your apartment or in your house or wherever you are and not celebrating with your fans.

Goodridden's is a whole other situation because now it's like it's a different thing. But you also are working with some new collaborators during that process. Aaron Desner and I mean Brian Eno You've worked with some people who are our Hall of Famers now and you continue to sort of push who your collaborators are. Why are you pushing who your collaborators are? I mean because I am changing, I think.

It's just you like continue to realign with yourself. And then as a result, I think the people that you attribalien. If you're, if you're correctly, like, aligned, I feel like, because I was so, what I, I just literally use, I use that, just my therapist loves the word aligned. But I felt like I was so out of alignment, honestly, for a good number of years. And as I started to get to know myself better, I felt like naturally the people that I was drawn to, I just felt, I felt, I felt like, I felt like we were kind of on the same page, not just creatively, which did follow, but just, you know, like, for example, meeting Aaron.

The first time we ever spoke was on FaceTime for like an hour during COVID and then, you know, didn't really, I don't even remember what we talked about. I just remember how I felt after getting off the call, which was like, I want to tell this person everything. And we have such different lives. We certainly, you know, really did at the time. and we're in such different places in our lives, and he has a family, and has had such a wild career.

But felt similarly rooted in, like, all of his best friends have been his best friends since he was a kid. You know, like, the band's been together since they were children. Like, all of the... Just like this kind of grounded... It's a grounded approach. A grounded approach, and, like, just also the, like... He's so rare, and I was immediately evident to me

and right after like just post quarantine he was like you should come to Long Pond and so I went and hadn't met him before then in person but stayed for like a week and a half or something

and immediately it was just kind of like I want to never leave this place and can you adopt me and you know going on you know the album comes out it's fantastic And one of the things that's really cool about it is when you were saying how Joni Mitchell is one of the people your mom played. A lot of artists use Joni Mitchell as a reference.

But you do something that they don't, that she does, which is you're so patient. And we're just when, you know, it's like it's using a half a measure of good. go by and then you finish the word or that next word is the changes the meaning of the previous word it seems like there's an evolution in your writing where

you're becoming more patient in a lot of ways which is really which is super unique it's not that you didn't have it before but there's something that's happening in this album that's different than the previous stuff where it's like this it's just honing your style

as you go through and it's like it's really exciting I don't really have a question thank you Ross thank you that is really generous of you to say just put that in your pocket and use it later I'm gonna like run with it for the rest of my life so you go on tour

with Taylor you've now like you know you're you have all these you've toured with a bunch of people you've you're and like I said it's this community of the Olivia's and Phoebe's and these people that you're a part of

when you listen to their music versus yours, does it change how you want to craft your own? I mean, I think it's kind of like what we were talking about before where there's this kind of overflowing well of inspiration because the artists that we are lucky enough to have putting out music right now are very obviously writing from such an honest place. And I think that to me is what I find to be the most inspiring every single

time there's a new release from any of them is just how lucky we all are that they're choosing to dig deep in the ways that they do to share their music as honestly as they do to be successful in their own ways

by doing so. I think there's kind of like this just like inherent drive that I I feel when I see my, like, my peers and my friends and, like, my idols releasing music that is great. And you're kind of just like, holy shit. Like, I want to push myself to be as honest.

And I think what's so exciting about that and being a young person is that, like, your truth changes all the time. And to just continue documenting that is what I hope to do. Well, thank you for doing this podcast. This was so fun. I don't even know what to say besides thank you. We have one more, we have one more segment, which is a five for five. So I'm just going to do that real quick. And just tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head.

Okay. We're going to go with Joni Mitchell. North Star. Really? Yeah. Still? Yeah. Cool.

Same. I mean, this is like, wait. Do you know it's crazy? You know she lived like, you know she lived like blocks right here. This whole neighborhood. Don't you feel her like spirit or do you know, not be honest. I think that this neighborhood that's so interesting, this general Laurel Canyon area is, was famous for, you know, imagine we're in the 70s and 60s, 70s and 80s and 80s and just like you

would text a song idea. People would just drive down the block and play it for somebody. There are producers and writers who are within five blocks here that are as big as you get who do all kinds of things. And it's like you see them at the grocery store. It feels fake if you're not part of it. But in this literal community, people like Joni Mitchell live right there, right there, literally right there. And you're like, oh my God, right up the street is, you know, that's why she was in the relationship that she was in. That's why down the street from hers where Jim Morrison was.

and where the eagles were in the, it's, it's just wild. Like, she is, she is a, she's definitely the soul of this area. She's the soul. All women's schools. Oh my God. Oh, I just love them so much. I literally, I just love them so much. I was, do you want, wait, what kind of answer?

Do you want, like, one word? No, I just love them. I felt so inspired by my classmates. I felt so protected by my teachers. I felt so able to raise my hand all the time. And I feel like it just changed the way that I am in relationship to every other person that I meet today. There's, it's just like a really, it's a really cool world when it's like all women. Your fans.

Just like kind of my whole heart, my whole heart. heart. I think about them every waking minute, to be honest. Really? Yeah, I really, like, love them like true friends and family. And it's so crazy to have seen, I see so many familiar faces, like, all year round. There's, like, a solid group of them that I don't know how they do it, but are at, like, pretty much every single show. Even, like, all the Ares shows would be, like, front. And I'm like, how are you, how are you getting here?

But they're the greatest and they make me laugh. They make me laugh so hard and I think like that's my favorite thing. And people is just being able to like, that's just great sense of humor. Also just so deeply feeling and so inspire me to write how I actually want to because they understand it. Your journal. It's the darkest place on our, no, I'm kidding.

It's definitely something that I want no one else to ever read. It's pretty, recently, like, the past couple weeks, I've been writing more in my journal than I typically do. I write every day no matter what, but I also, like, sometimes it's a page and that's it, but I've been writing, like, pages and pages every day. And so I've been very quickly going through this, this, most. and I, a couple days ago, went back and just read through the past month and you can see the crazy develop. Like, you literally can track it day by day. So right now, I'm like, it's a, you know, no one should ever have to look in there. It's a frightening place.

Yeah. Your family. Oh, man. They're just like, they are, they are, They really are everything. It's like this weird, I feel like as I've gotten older, it's just to be able to, you can kind of like feel when someone has been lucky enough to grow up feeling like truly, like actually loved and to have my brothers and my parents and my cousins and my aunts, my uncles, my grandpa, like truly like I just admire them all as people

and I want to be like all of them. and the fact that I'm able to observe how they go through the world and try to adopt their practices. And I can't believe I got to grow up around such thoughtful, generous people. It's just like their generosity of spirit I am so obsessed with. And yeah, I could talk about them forever.

Well, thank you for doing this podcast. Thank you so much. You are such a nice human, and I can tell you that a lot of people, there was a book called The Infinite Game, you know what that is? I don't know that book. So in most of our lives, you know, we think of games as finite, where there's a literal time, there are rules, their players, the players who start the game, and the players who end the game,

and there's a winner at the end. And then there's infinite games where essentially the game wins. and the players come and go. They run out of resources. They run out of connections. They run out of whatever it is that gets them in and out of the game. I can tell you that the people who play the longest are the ones who have your graciousness and your ability to communicate with people.

I think that I'm excited because what I was saying about good riddance and seeing the development and knowing that where you are in your actual like, you know, the years that you've lived, I'm just so excited to see where it's going. You've been writing since, really since you're in third grade

and I think sometimes people look at younger players in the infinite game and assume, oh, well then, you know, they're just sort of starting. No, you've had as much experience writing songs as some people who are like, you know, your roommate just started. So I just think like,

your demeanor and your skill set is just is exciting to watch because you're going to be here for a while. So thank you. Man, thank you so much. I'm such a fan of this podcast. And I honestly, it's so funny to me that you are having me on. And I'm just very grateful. And I'm such a fan of yours. And yeah, this was really genuinely fun.

It'll just be your first one. We'll have you in. Okay. Deal. Cool. All right, there you go. This episode is produced by Joe London, Mega House Management, and myself.

See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan, signing off.