And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 183: James Bay pt.2

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

Today’s three-time Grammy Award-nominated, two-time BRIT Award recipient, claimed top honors at the Ivor Novellos not just because he is an authentic crooner but because he is a prolific song craftsman. His work is known globally but his story started at open mic nights. His raw talent was captured on camera by a fan and uploaded via YouTube, which caught the attention of RCA Records, propelling him into the star he is today. His introspective storytelling and commitment to his craft have allowed him to touch the hearts of fans from all different backgrounds. All the way from the United Kingdom, this advocate for WaterAid, tiptoes a fine line between rafter-reaching rock glory and tender folk songcraft.And The Writer Is…James Bay! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey guys, I'm excited to tell you a little bit about what. one of today's sponsors, Peer Music. During a time of intense consolidation in the music industry,

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a community. If you want to learn more, I recommend you go to at Peer Music on all their social media sites and check out PeerMusic.com. ChartMetric is proud to sponsor the upcoming season of and The Writer is. As the go-to source for up-to-date global social streaming and audience data for artists and music industry professionals, chart metric strives to ensure everyone can have a successful career in music. They're easy to understand in powerful analytics on over 10 million artists and 100 million tracks will help answer all of your questions from tracking your stats to discovering new talents.

Throughout this season, we'll be showcasing chart metric data to reveal insights about our featured artists like how Noah Khan is currently the top performing artists from Vermont by Spotify monthly listeners. Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. So it has been a hundred episodes since we spoke to this guest. So I'm going to do the intro again, a new version of it, but kind of tells a story and then we'll jump back in. We're going to go with, welcome to Anne the writer is. I am your host, Roscoe, and Today's three-time Grammy Award nominated two-time Brit Award recipient claimed top honors at the Ivor Novello's

not just because he is an authentic crooner but because he is a prolific song craftsman. His work is known globally but originated from open mic nights. His raw talent was captured on camera by a fan and uploaded via the YouTube, which in turn caught the attention of RCA records, propelling him into this star he is today. And all the way from the United Kingdom,

this advocate for water aid tiptoes a fine line between rafter reaching rock glory and tender folk songcraft. He is playing tonight at the Hollywood Bowl. By the time this comes out, he will have played it. But, you know, with our former guests, the Luminaires. And the writer is, my friend, James Bay. That's good at the breath. That's supposed to be the sound of thousands of people cheering.

That is the biggest crowd possible. Okay, so I can look at some notes, but I like the conversation we were having outside. I mean, you know, if you want to know your history, you can also go back to the previous episode, so I don't want to like rehash what we've already done. But, you know, when we talked last, albums had a different foothold in the music industry. And to me, you are the quintessential album artists. Like you go into one of your EPs, one of your albums, and you're in a world. In the last five years, things have changed.

Explain how the changes have affected you. Well, I think that the foothold that the album has had in music has been changing so fast and so often over the last like 10 years even. It's constantly, we don't know where we're at with it. And for me, I'm holding fast to the album because maybe I don't want to sort of talk about myself

like you said it you said I'm an album artist and I believe it and I'm really like I'm not just comfortable there because I don't just want to be comfortable anywhere I'm most excited there so

I want to always sort of function create operate with like a body of music in mine, not just one song. And I give just as much focus to every individual song, but I'm also doing that thing that album artists, you might say, like do, which is zoom out constantly and look at the three songs that you initially have and how they'll place on an album that's hopefully more songs. And then maybe when you've got five and nine songs and 10 and 11,

12 songs, I'm always looking at it from that other perspective as well. Because it's just, that's what I grew up enjoying the most about listening to music. like to press play on track one and let it run and learn about the relationships that, I don't know, tracks three and seven had with each other. And what the journey between those two tracks was like, it's just such a colourful, like, experience. It's such a colourful listening experience. And so multidimensional, it's always more about a sort of story and a journey. Listening to a whole album is like watching the whole movie rather than just like an episodic thing, wrong with. I like to sort of submerge myself completely in the waters of an album as a listener.

But yeah, also as a creator, because if I've listened and loved albums as much as I have, maybe it's obvious that that's how I want to sort of make music. So given the foothold that an album, the album has had in music, has been changing so much recently, me and I think a good few other artists and even people like yourself, the way that we talk about it is that they are here to stay regardless of whatever else is happening

and we live in a time where lots of very different things can kind of be the way in music all at the same time and there's lots of cool microclimates and if album artists becomes more of a microclimate at the very worst so be it. That's a cool club to be a part of.

I'm really into that. I don't know if it feels like there's an opportunity right now where, first of all, because content is king, you know, it's like, I think that we're in a place where an album that has the support of their label, or an artist who has the support of their label, could release five albums in a year. Like, you can go into a place where, uh, that is almost back to, you know, the early 60s. Because you can, uh, because you can, uh, because, you can, uh, because, Because singles are that hits are really complicated to define and singles are not. So you can find

collections of songs and pick the singles out of those and have enough singles for a year and have enough content for a career. I think you're right. I understand even from what we were talking about outside and just the way that things are happening recently

with regards to social media, which is a place where I'm kind of uncomfortable and I'm kind of comfortable and maybe that's the same for a lot of artists but what does that mean well it's so weird the amount of the industry that's changed since we spoke last

you know that like TikTok was like a thing but almost it was probably musically at that time you know it wasn't even you know it's like the difference the pressure put on an artist to be you're the marketing machine

I feel that pressure I feel, I know that, so I'm 33 and I know 22, 23 year old artists who feel that pressure and have a whole different handle on social media. We all feel the pressure. It's not, it shouldn't be a pressure competition, but I'm out here like not connecting as fast

with the ways in which you do things on social media now like you even did five years ago or like I was even able to understand five years ago, let alone 10 years ago, and by the way, 10 years ago when I signed a record deal, or maybe just over 10 years ago, they wanted to know about the songs I had and how they went over live

and how they sounded through speakers. And they didn't want to know about my Spotify numbers, not with any great interest or urgency, and they didn't want to know about my Instagram followers or my social media followers with any great urgency. I do remember a couple of people. They were saying, like, how many friends do you have on, you know, Facebook or whatever?

but they still was like, you know, are you friending people? I just remember that being an action. I remember one or two people at the label saying, oh, and how's your social media? And I sort of show them my phone screen. And they go, oh, we'll see if we can get those numbers up. But then the conversation was over. And we were back to talking about the songs.

And I don't want to sort of say this and feel like I'm kind of disrespecting where it's got to now. It's evolved in the way that it's had, that it has. Maybe obviously. But, yeah. How do you create enough content visually to keep up with somebody who lives on their phone? Me personally, I need a team of people. Yeah. Because I can't, my brain doesn't work like that.

Oh, I don't have enough space. I don't know. Maybe I've got to evolve. The assumption that the artist has to also be a media guru. And look, this is... And that's where the pressure comes from, by the way. We were talking about David Bowie earlier. It's like he was somebody who,

in an age, when music videos come in, he sort of puts fuel on this fire and can do amazing music videos and could totally keep up with that. But a lot of artists couldn't. And it can be sort of, you know, it can obviously, you have to fight through it.

So if it's to have a team of people who can help create that. Yeah, I'm just going to sort of, I don't want to throw myself under the bus, but at 33 years old, I found out when I watched Moonage Daydream, this new Bowie movie recently. He says in the movie, he says,

I think either he says or someone else says that are 33 years old. He had released 17 albums. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, though. Why not release? But I love what you're saying. Like, you can release two albums in a year. An album, by the way.

I'll say two things about that. One relating to social media, which is an album could surely easily, and maybe I'm realizing this in this moment, be a total content cow, like in a really great way. And I think that's what you're saying. Exactly.

And the other thing. Every single song you can do your content around and you're creating, and then it's a little more comfortable. You don't have to lump so much weight. You did 36 songs in a year because you did three albums. And you have to, and you know, you're talking about 52 weeks in a year. You easily have enough content of doing stuff that you like. Yes.

Yes. And you don't have to lump so much weight and pressure onto like one single, being the thing that hopefully will carry all of the activity and content. The other thing, the other point I wanted to sort of make, which is a big one for me, and probably a big one for a lot of artists, and probably a kind of contentious talking point, is that to do two albums in a year,

I have to get maybe even just a little bit less precious. Do you sort of... Of course. Right. Now, this is going to be a delicate subject because every artist that thinks that you must labor so long on one song or one verse or one chorus before you are convinced that it is good enough to go out,

they're right. Everybody who wants to do the opposite, they're right too. Because there's no rules to it. Can't you do them at the same time? And maybe this is a... I love what you say. Maybe this is a skill set of a songwriter versus an artist. It's the middle of the night, last night.

I'm working on this chorus. It's 2.30. My dog has to pee. I take them out. Sitting outside, looking at the stars. I'm working on a chorus of something that I've been working on for a long time. And then we're doing this, and then I have a session this afternoon, and I'll be writing a different thing.

but at night, I'm still working on this other chorus. You can work on certain songs that might make the album three albums from now and still be like, this is the two-week, one-month period that's this moment. What happens if you're just... I don't know if you do this, but when you're in a session,

sometimes you spend seven hours working on a song, the song's pretty good, it's fine. Right, right. You're pro, you got it. Like, every song's good. And then you have that last 45 minutes, you're like, Hail Mary time.

Yeah. First idea that comes in, you write it down, that's our song. And I feel like nine times out of ten, it's the Hail Mary song that you feel like you have to, you know, that's the good song.

Yeah, it's true. It's, I have a really, at the moment, like right now in the present moment, I have a kind of a unique situation that I'm dealing with and deciding to talk about when I didn't think I was going to, like with regards to all that kind of stuff,

I have got a song coming out late this year. We don't have a date for it yet. But I've been playing it live for one, and that's been really exciting, watching a crowd react. And it's like, it's 10 times more exciting to see them react and enjoy it because this single that's coming

is a song I wrote 10 years ago. Yeah. Now, we wrote it in half a day. It came pretty quick. It came pretty easy and obvious, and we were so excited in the way that sometimes when songs come fast, You're like, oh my God.

They just drop out the sky. They sort of come through you out and into the instrument and into the microphone and into the speakers and they're there. It was a very personal thing. You know, I think the scariest songs that I've ever released are the ones that feel the most personal. That was a case for my song, Let It Go. It was ultimately a sort of terrifying kind of whirlwind hurricane experience

where I'd said some more personal things in that song that I'd ever said in any other. But people just loved it and wanted to hear it, and it was gone and it was out of my hands and out of my control. that I don't regret or resent any of that. Ultimately, in hindsight, I go, wow, how cool that, like, it got such immediate and enormous sort of reaction. And ultimately, I think I...

This other song, it's called All My Broken Pieces, I guess I held tight to it. I guess I almost sort of leaned into the fear that I'd felt around Let It Go going out, and I thought, well, I don't know if I want to go through that again immediately. So I'm not going to put that on my debut album as well. so I held onto it and then I kept holding onto it

and it felt so scary to sort of put it out that I I just kind of kept pushing it away in the small small group of people around me who are still the same people around me who get to listen to stuff that maybe never gets released always said I don't really understand it's a really good song

is it not is it not gonna like are you not going to record it and I just kept going nah I'm not sure and I just it's not about the kind of something nice about the number 10 and when it's 10 years you sort of go maybe it's time and that all felt very much like a sort of Indiana Jones movie or something

sure but like I also just gave in because I'm growing a lot lately and I'm changing and I'm able to sort of have a new perspective on the sort of 10 years of experience that I have and I'm sort of going maybe it's just okay maybe it's okay to be afraid a little bit and maybe it's okay to be a bit more vulnerable than I was ever like willing to be so let's do it

let's release this song and the reactions that we've been getting live have been amazing we've played it to a few more people. They've really liked it. So we're going to decide on a date and actually put it out. And recording it was an unbelievable experience. I had an acoustic guitar and vocal demo of it.

I took my touring band into the studio and we all absolutely gave it everything that we could. And we worked with this great producer, Gabe Simon, who I'm working with at the moment, who's done loads of great stuff most recently with Noah Khan. And yes, we're going to go for it. But there's all kinds of different... Sorry to interrupt.

No, it's okay. But if you have a 10-year-old song, the idea that your cells regenerate every seven years, you're kind of like covering younger you's song. And so you go into it and you're able to say, wow, I love this song. And you're able to connect to that person and appreciate the work that younger person put in

to their career and their heart and the effortless nature of being a little more naive. the man and I have a song right now that's top 15 at radio and the song's you know

the seed of the song is eight years old seven years old the first idea I mean we rewrote verses seven seven weeks ago

right you know that's beautiful over the seven years and then the seven weeks ago thing that happens that happens a lot if you believe in a chorus

or you believe in a song where you're like, man, there's something here, and you keep hitting up the label, you keep hitting, there's something here. Now's not the right time, but it wasn't right for the artist. It wasn't, you know, it took a moment, but as a steward of songs, you're like, this is amazing.

The song is his own life. The way, absolutely, and the way that, that's true, the way that minds can stay open, and in this case, obviously, my mind has sort of opened again to be, choosing to be less afraid. Because I guess what I'm sort of saying in a backwards way is it's very easy for me to be very closed up

and sort of put walls up and be quite guarded about how I do things, how I want to do things. Is that career-wise or is that James Bet? It's a bit of both. Were you always closed off from... Are you shy? It's a weird question for somebody who stands on stage tonight in front of 18,000 people, but are you shy?

I know what comes forward. I know what is at the front. of my sort of delivery of myself to any one person doesn't seem shy at all. But that might be my mechanism. That might be my approach to being shy, to feeling shy. Were you shy when you were younger?

So when we all turned about 15, right, and we're talking like 2005, 2006, it was still at a point, I don't know what it's like now, but it was still at a point where in our little hometown, if we went at the right time, we could get into the pub. We were underage.

We could do it. A couple people had, they knew. A couple guys had sideburns, you know. People were like, we were tall enough. It was that kind of, voices had dropped. Anyway, and I went two or three times, and everybody else carried on until they were 18, and then carried on after they were 18.

But I had a little eight-track recorder at home in my bedroom, and I just felt it was two things. One is very kind of, you know, it might seem sort of cool to say, oh, I just love music, and I was just obsessive writing songs. And I was, it was that stuff. But the other thing was that I was, yeah,

I was kind of frigid about getting out and amongst it and among people in this excited, excitable new social atmosphere. I was not very good at being there. I didn't feel comfortable. And that probably is down to a sort of shyness of one kind of another. And if that still kind of exists in any way, then I guess my very long-winded answer to your question, am I shy, is some version of yes. And with that in mind, as far as like putting this very personal song out that I wrote 10

years ago. And as far as loving more than ever the idea of like maybe trying to put two albums out in a year, I don't know that I'm going to do that. But you say it and I've been thinking about it and loving that idea more than ever. I'm just trying to cut myself some slack and just be like, feel a bit more free. It takes off the pressure, man. If you have, it doesn't mean that, look, if a song's going bananas, like the label can still push it. You can still promote that song and still be releasing a new album underneath it. Absolutely right. More is more in that respect.

There's more is more. There's a, there are a couple songs that really reacted at radio last year. And part of the, I know the label and I know their thought process, the mistake they made was not following it up fast enough with ideas. And it wasn't just following up as a single. It was that there wasn't the breadth of discography. Now, you actually have a lot of music. So it's like people who can always discover if the songs going crazy at radio,

or whatever, they can be like, oh shit, he did that and that and that and that and that. But the idea of showing that's like, oh, I'm just, you know, it's the, what we're all watching with Taylor. It's like she can release an album and do redo an album and cover herself and cover herself and do all these things. And it seems like there just are no rules. But there are no rules for you either. It's true.

And if those, if Taylor at the very least is maybe sort of drawing up a new kind of guidebook for everybody coming afterwards or whatever, then nine. but like at the same time, it just sort of innocently inspires this idea that there are no rules for anybody else. And I'm really kind of falling in love with that. And like it's making me feel less like afraid to worry about how precious any one thing is.

If I just give it my everything and love it and believe in it, even a bit or enough, then let's just do that, put it out. It's honest, it's gone. It's everyone else's. As long as it's this honest, like this is who I was for these two weeks. this is who I was for this month. Yeah. And, you know, we decided to release it because...

Because of that. Because of that. That's it. Yeah. And there were mixtapes that people did. Even, you know, this is... I don't know how much you were aware of, like, Dave Matthews over in the UK. But, like, he was...

He had so many of his fans were following all these, you know, they would hand out all these mixtapes and live recordings. It was just endless amounts of albums underneath the albums. you know but you never you know it's always I never he never recorded that on an album but it's essentially you can now do that and actually make money from it

because it's released on DSPs and if it doesn't become one of the essential albums it doesn't but if it does it does and you do we all know even in the last five to ten years of like streaming services where we can go and find you know lesser popular or lesser known stuff by an artist

we will say but did you know this one also I don't know how I'm sure it's still the same. Somehow, maybe through signing a record deal in America, I set up like a US Spotify account. That's what I seem to sort of function on and pay for and use. And I'm a big Kings of Leon fan. And Tom, who plays in my band,

who I've known since I was three, and has grown up as an even bigger Kings of Leon fan than me. We were like throwing things back and forth on Spotify. And I said, oh, have you heard this? This is years ago. And there was like a sort of kind of almost bootleg little live thing by Kings of Leon from about 2007. and he just couldn't find it.

He couldn't even open the link. Anyway, I mean, that's just a sort of territorial thing. But the point was, like, when he was sat next to me, I could play in this thing, and we were like, wow, like we've done a little deep dive here and found they did like a cover on there and maybe some unreleased songs from about that time. And, like, yeah, you can unearth so much in the streaming age, I guess,

and so much faster than ever. So if that's the age we live in, which it is, why don't I, and another artist, yeah, just like be a little bit more kind of carefree from one of a better word. about throwing up more stuff on their more frequently. Peer Music is a leading music publishing and neighboring rights company that has been championing songwriters and artists for nearly 100 years.

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go check out peer music.com or follow them on social media at peer music. Our good friends at ChartMetric have all the data you need to power your music career. From playlist placements to stream counts to follower demographics and many more. It's never been easier to understand how your artists fit in the music industry and how they can grow. ChartMetric does the work for you, providing actionable insights and videos. on their up-to-date global data that covers over 10 million artists and 100 million songs. So there's no math required. Use it to find out things about your favorite artists and any of the artists and writers on this podcast.

Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. What makes this new single so personal? You keep saying it's so personal. Well. What's the hesitation? What could the song possibly... It's really about the vulnerability,

the vulnerable place from which I sort of wrote to it. You know, I... Okay, so I want to give you a not long-winded answer, but I'm going to give you a sort of semi-long-winded answer. So let it go is not a breakup song. People love it and call it this fantastic breakup song, and that's okay. They can read into it what they like and what they need to,

because music needs to be the therapy that you need it to be when you listen. For me, though, I wrote that song, at a time in my life when I'm still in the same relationship I was in then we've been together me and Lucy for a very long time but I was in my very early 20s and I was doing lots of leaving

I was the main record label interest I was getting was from America which that's a long way jumping across the pond when you're just a couple of kids from a small town in England, a small country and so the evolving that I was doing was sort of pulling me away from my roots.

And I was like, as far as like, I wasn't living in my parents' house anymore and I'd only not been doing that for a year or two. So I was kind of doing that fly in the nest thing that we all do eventually. And me and Lucy moved into a place that I was barely ever in because I was actually flying to America all the time

or going off around the country or Europe or whatever, doing all this traveling and really like stepping into this like new version of myself and part of my life. Trying like desperately to embrace it but not actually, as a loyal person, I was scared to leave people. And it was just a very difficult time.

When you're sort of supposed to like embrace your new true colours or whatever you're supposed to do in your early 20s, if it comes then, I just found it incredibly hard. And though we didn't break up, it felt like a sort of a breaking up in ways, almost with an older version of myself. So the whole thing around let it go, and I'm going to get to this new song, by the way,

sorry, this is long-winded, but like the idea of let's let it go. You be you and I'll be me. all of those lyrics are about growing and changing. And you talked about yourselves, do what they do every seven years. I guess they really do. So I wrote that song from an incredibly sort of vulnerable place. And I've always found it very hard

to talk about that song being about those things in the details that I've just told you. Yeah, it takes backstory to really grasp. Yeah, because I can't. Everybody's, you know, as the song was being successful and when it was new, people say, beautiful breakup song. And I kind of just smile and nod a little bit

and say, I didn't go through a break. but yeah sure which is really almost i don't want to i didn't want to be disrespectful but like it was just very hard you know music writing is a huge therapy for me anyway so um that time was a complete roller coaster and a whirlwind experience and my my life my sort of work life since then has continued to be that i absolutely love my job it's the most incredible thing i feel unbelievably fortunate and lucky to get to do what i get to do because there's people who want to do what i do that don't ever get the chance, they do something that they don't like as much or whatever. So I can't believe that I still get to do this and that I've got to do it for as long as I have. But it doesn't mean that

it's not really difficult sometimes, really like intense, really terrifying, really sad. It still is lots of those things. And in that respect, I, to now start talking very much as a songwriter, like, I fall apart all the time. I'll give you this like, this front. It's not a front in an ungenuine or ingenuine kind of way. I'm just trying to, you know, stand up and sort of like go into the day with any kind of confidence. But like I might have come from like a really, like anybody, like you might sort of walk into one room having stepped out of the other where you were maybe in dire straits, like feeling kind of upset about one thing or another, but you've got to keep going. In the process of constantly trying to keep going, which we're all doing,

and I'm certainly doing, now and again, I'll fall to pieces. And I've got a few people definitely Lucy is one, she's maybe the most important one, but like there's a few people in my life who are quite good at helping put me back together. Again, to kind of speak in quite sort of lyrical kind of songwritory sort of words. So all my broken pieces is about that. It's about being lucky enough to have someone, some people or someone, who really know how to sort of where to put the glue and how to hold me when it's not going right. I think just to say that has been quite a sort of intensely vulnerable and intimate and scary thing to sort of reveal maybe i'm being naive because more than ever with with with the progress that sort of society is making

with mental health it is actually now easy to talk about that stuff but i guess deep down i'm a sort of i've been trying to be a pretty basic kind of tough guy that i don't necessarily need to be or try to be and that means it's taken me 10 years to be okay about putting this song out, I guess. You know, there's always like a character in a movie like a sort of disgruntled old guy who's kind of tough and they say, but don't talk to him about his shoes. Whatever you do, don't talk to him about his shoes.

And you're like, what's up with old Joe's shoes? They're just a kind of cool, dusty pair of boots and they're like the boots that when he lost his mother he was wearing them or something. So he can't, you know, that's the general. And it's like this song is, like all my broken pieces is like the sort of dusty old pair of boots I kind of can't talk about in a way because it's just how it affects me. How much...

I hope that answers your question. It does. How many, how much of the vulnerability is due to having a daughter? Well, that's new, I suppose, in a way recently. My daughter is nearly two and she, Ada, she is, it's an unbelievable, terrifying and euphoric experience, obviously, like having a child and like it's opened up a ability in me, a new sort of dimension of vulnerability that I'm able to access. And maybe in other ways I've closed up more and I've put more armor on.

How so? Well, in a kind of like, I've got to protect me to protect her kind of way in that sort of, you're on an aeroplane, you put your mask on so you can take care of someone else and put their mask on kind of thing. So it's done both things, which is quite extreme to sort of deal with, I have to say.

you know to find a way to access vulnerability be more sort of vulnerable in a more open and kind of public way is a roller coaster ride in itself yeah the public way is the part that I keep forgetting in this that it's nuts

that in the end it's one thing for a father of a daughter or father of any child to have to learn how to be a father but then they have to do it while people are watching you do it is a whole other situation. I mean, are you guys while you're on tour, they're with you? They've just come out for the first time ever, and that's wild.

I was good at saying, like, did you see it in my eyes? No, I mean, look, it's, there are nights where your kid doesn't sleep, and then you have to go and sing. I have to say. Does that, does that, you know, just touring with a child, is that a fun experience? Is it difficult? Is it all the things?

I'm five days in and it's all the things. And like that's how I'm built to be though even without having my family on the road. Yeah, right. I guess it's not like you're in a new hotel room sleeping like a baby. I don't get that expression either. People always say like sleeping like a baby

like what inconsistently? Right, right, right. I do that super well. I just I just need to have these kind of skills almost before. It's a whole different ride when you've got your family and a toddler on tour, obviously,

but like, than it is when you don't. But at the same time, so of course what comes with that is a lot of excitement. I'm very happy that they're here. It's not nice being away from them. But Ada, my daughter has never been Jetlight before. I mean, like I say, she's barely too. She is and she isn't.

And, you know, I'm touring with the Luminaires and they've got their kids out with them and a lot of those guys. And they're incredible at talking about it, by the way, in terms of sort of helping try and keep me at ease. They're like, kids don't really know about jet lags, so you don't really have to sort of worry about it. They'll feel a little kind of wobbly now and again,

and then they'll come through it, and they'll be back, and they'll nap at some crazy time, but they'll benefit from that, and they'll come through it. So it's us as adults who are doing too much thinking. That's interesting. Which is totally understandable. So, yeah, for me, like, I also just have to be resilient already working in the world that I do.

You know, I try and be genuine and honest, But sometimes, even if you're feeling kind of lost and alone, you have to present like you're all good. I don't know. I don't want that to, that will seem ingenuine, but sometimes that is the truth. You've got to turn up with a big smile and deliver the show. And I want people to have that rather than,

guys, I'm really sorry, I can't do this, I'm just feeling upset, I'm going to just leave the stage. They didn't come for that. So I try and sort of... I remember... Do the thing. one of my good friends Jared Sharf is

like world's best guitarist he played with a Saturday Night Live for years before he became a successful songwriter and he but he once said that he heard Chris Martin say you know

it was like about being nervous to go on stage for NBC and all this stuff and it was like you just act like you're not nervous exactly correct It's like, I was like, oh, that's really interesting. It's like, because you go, you know, who doesn't, everyone gets a little butterflies. You need it.

You need those. Yeah. You do need those. They are important. If you don't have any butterflies, then you maybe need to sort of think about it. But like, the corny version of what Chris Martin said is fake it till you make it. Yeah. But you do, you know, you have to.

But you're still, the idea is that James Bay saw us to fake it until he makes it. And that Chris Martin still has to fake it until he makes it. That there is no making it. There's no there. No, it's about the till. Yeah. Like, no matter how far you, it's like, I don't know if Taylor gets nervous. We looks like she doesn't.

But my guess is that before she goes on stage, she gets a little butterflies if there are 100,000 people. You know what I caught? So we did a few shows with her in like 2014. We opened up for Taylor Swift. And like, as she was going to the stage once or twice, sometimes our dressing rooms were quite near each other. And as you saw her. was kind of a little bit swarmed by people. And maybe it was like the dancers that she was starting the show with and everything.

You know, it wasn't just like security people or whatever. It was obviously her show. It was her house for the night. So she had every reason, of course, to feel sort of safe and sound. But like the performer in that brain of Taylor Swift's that was going to the stage, you saw her. And I love this. I'm sort of fascinated.

And I think about it in myself sometimes a little bit. You saw her sharpening up. You saw her, you saw, it's like when the Iron Man suit goes on. And the like, mask goes down on the face. all those panels that slot in real sharp and clean and metallic. Like, I saw that as she was like every step closer to the stage or she was coming up underneath the stage, like, to wherever she needed to be. Like, she just sort of sharpened and kind of, I want to say, intensified,

like, in all the right ways that you should as you get ready to, like, do, make that first move and sing that first note on stage. Because it is like about, like, making people out there go, wow. When you play a sport and you have a manager who does that for you, they give you your prep, you know, they're pep talk, they give you the prep that you need to know like these are your plays, this is what you're going to do. But what's weird about music, even as an actor, you have a director,

is most artists who have to perform have somebody who's there to be, or a cast of people who are like, ready, let's go. Yeah. And when you're an artist, I guess you can do that with your band. But there's a little bit of, it's really solo. And the vulnerability of a performer in music,

maybe that's why we love musicians so much, but they have to go on stage and you see them in their rawest form. They don't have somebody there being like, all right, let's go. You're about to perform the Hollywood Bowl. Are you ready to go? And that's not what's going to happen.

You guys are going to be like, are you guys ready to go? Everyone kind of like goes in their own, they pick up their guitar, it's all tuned, they grab their shit, you know, they walk on stage and you go and you perform. You are in your Royce form and you are like intensely sort of vulnerable. And the important thing almost to remember, like when I think about what you're saying there, and I agree with you, is that even if you're feeling kind of wrecked, like emotionally maybe, or maybe it's all got on top of you or you had a rough night the night before or whatever,

or you're having a bad week or month or whatever, you might just be in a bad chapter of your life that's really difficult to deal with. although I guess audience members like do embrace how that might come across you're still making sure your tools are sharp there's still a part of your brain that isn't somebody else like a manager or whatever or a hype guy like you know director like for an actor for example like there's still a part of your brain that has to do that as well and go hey nail it though like and I'm not trying to say oh so it's so much harder for a musician

I'm just saying that's probably why you do it well is because you have that little guy and they're being like, hey, nail it. I think there are probably a lot of people who have a skill set to make music but don't have the little guy that can be loud enough. Sure. You know, it's like that's a...

It's the ego. It's important to have one. If you don't have one as an artist, you might struggle a little bit. James Baldwin, great writer, wrote some unbelievable books and all kinds of different essays. He talks about it. can't remember well enough to sort of quote him but i've always enjoyed the the moments where he said

you know as an artist as a writer you know he's a he's a writer but like he's he's some version of an artist he's like boy is an ego important you don't have one of those you know that's in the same way that butterflies of some description or amount yeah are very necessary you have to be so devoted to the act you have to be so devoted to the the craft of what you're about to do you have to be a fan kind of of yourself that's the ego when uh when you're going back to writing a couple questions one is uh when you're in a healthy relationship and you have a you have a you know you have your daughter now what do you write about i think one of the healthiest relationships is one that's got all kinds of like um open and honest uh

I don't want to say arguments. I mean, they come. There's no way they don't happen. What are you kidding me? You can't be in a beautiful, healthy relationship and not know how to argue. You have to have that. I was in my...

This is years ago. There's a song that came out with this band called Rickston that I did called Appreciated. And I had the melody all written out and I needed a five-syllable word and I knew this for a long time. I kept going back to this chorus. There's a word out there that exists.

And I just remember getting an argument with my then probably fiancé and saying, you know, we're fine. And she said something about like not being appreciated. And I was like, and she's like, what are you doing? Like my eyes like lit up. I was like, I was like, I was like, I know we're having an argument. But I needed that's the word. That's the word. She's like, are you kidding me right now?

I'm like, yes, I am not kidding you. I genuinely needed that word. Thank you so much. And like, go upstairs to me, like, I got it. That's such a beautiful example. No disrespect to her or you, but that is, of course, a beautiful example of what the hurricane the songwriting can be, you know, in terms of just in your brain.

But, you know, to answer your question, I think it's almost the longer you're in a relationship, the more things that you sort of, and the bigger things that you tackle together. and I'm also just a type of person who within my personal relationship or just with relationships I have with other people or relationships my friends are going through,

I'm affected, I'm emotional enough that I am affected. I could maybe watch movies that move me so much that I write songs about them. I don't typically tend to do that, but I'm also that kind of person. I'm just emotional in that way. So to kind of answer your question just like that,

like it doesn't, I don't have to have broken up with somebody to me personally to feel all the things that go into my songs it's like one of those things every label every artist you know it's like when they come in and they're in a healthy relationship

the question is always you know they need something edgy or something and you're like what what does you know let me create you know like it you know have have all you need is people to believe in you

and and also it's very sort of realistic and sort of healthy as an artist and a writer to go through periods where it's just difficult to love what you're doing. I mean, that's why music is incredible

as sweeping as that statement is or might sound. Music's amazing and songs are unbelievable because they don't come easily. You know, like if the best ones are hard thought or like almost fell out the sky with like a bit of luck or something,

the, you know, that's why it's all so special. That's why it's kind of like music and the effect that it has on us and the fact that songs have on us, it's like magic because you can't just have it anyway, any time you want. That's the funny thing about what, just to sort of take a bit of a leap here, like streaming is a fascinating beast because we all get to 20 or definitely sort of 25, 30. And if we're music fans, we like a lot and we know a lot of music

and we've listened to all kinds of different stuff. And streaming algorithms are interesting lately. I don't feel like I'm being given, like, everything I could be given. And it's kind of a robot in there. It's not the human brain. So it's like never going to be able to sort of dive back as far and as deep as my brain might be able to. But also it's shortening my attention span.

So I'm forgetting things that I used to know. And it's not sort of giving me, it's not my brain. So it's not giving me that. But like, while there's loads and loads and loads of incredible music that we will soak up over the years, and lots of it will want to keep, and some of it will grow out of. there's also

as crazy as this might sound there's also still not that much because if we could just all if every single song that ever got written you know so much about this because you've written so many songs I feel like I've written so many songs

but if every single one got released well they just wouldn't it wouldn't all get released because they aren't all good enough because it's not that easy well it's just weird thing you know you're we just talked to Ilsei

who I'm sure you've met before yeah I remember the LSI I love LLSI yeah She's fantastic. We were talking about coming up through open mics. That's how both of us met anybody. You moved to L.A. And I didn't know anybody.

I grew up in the middle of nowhere, kind of. And this was, I had to do open mics. Like, that's how I learned to perform. It's how I learned what didn't work. It's how I got the confidence of what I was doing did work. All of those things. And one of the hard parts to this generation is that there is no open mic that's their phone. And they do release everything they write.

And they do. And a lot, you know, there are very few pure songwriters now because most of the songwriters, the minute they were told if you can sing or not sing, but that we're supposed to release everything. Yeah. So from an early age, it's like, go release, go release stuff. And so you have these people who are learning on the job, so to speak, and they are releasing essentially everything. And that's where it's, I'm not saying that's good.

Yeah, you have to kind of keep your powder dry a little bit. If you put everything out. You need some taste. Yeah. And also, you know, and you need perspective. And the only way you get perspective is time. You also develop. Absolutely right.

you also develop taste by not putting everything out. You know, you learn that something, because we all have a song or more that we wrote, that we believe is incredible, that nobody else agrees with. And you know what? We might be wrong. It might not be that good. Isn't it the toughest one to take? It's the toughest one to take.

It's real. I got some stuff that like, I can't understand why the first people I show new music to that I've just written don't think it's amazing. And they just don't. Here's the other thing. and you hear the other thing that's true too. So, you know, it's, I know this is good.

And even though everyone is reacting like they don't like it, you know, I have enough conviction to be like something is good here. I'm going to readdress it, re-address it, and not, you know, there's something in that song that you're talking about, that you feel that way, there's something in it that's making you feel that way. and the collaborator, the other people around,

that's part of their job, is to be like, okay, what is great here? And to not let it die. That may be 10 years later, you need the person who can find the glue to put all the broken pieces together. Yeah, man. Yeah, no, that's, yeah. You know, it makes me think of all these different.

See, I listen to you. I love that. You know, it's rare, but. Thanks, man. There's a U2 song called One. Yeah, of course. One Love, One Life, To the Night. Apparently, they had a whole song going for so long.

and that bit was like the pre-chorus or something. And then one day, Bono or the Edge kind of went, wait, but just this bit is beautiful, and isn't that just a song on its own? And then a whole new song was born around it. I think it was years before they got to that place where they knew there was something. Yeah, I can't feel my face, the weekends on.

That's why it starts with and. Because the verse was the pre-chorus. That's great. And I know it starts literally with the word and because it was meant to be the pre-chorus. The pre-chorus meant to be the chorus. They'd strip the verse and they were like, we should write a better chorus.

Yeah. Do you know Phil Pleasted? Yeah, of course. Yeah, I love Phil. What's up, Phil? And I think loosely, I'm just about getting it right at the story. There's a great little mix song called Touch of Your Love. Just a touch of your love is enough to knock me off of my feet all week. He was like rolling around like he's Phil with an acoustic guitar in his hand

being Pleasted as an artist with this cool chorus. chorus. I don't think he had, maybe you didn't have all of it or something and, um, a sort of more pop inclined producer writer said, can I, do, are you keeping that or can I have it? And like, the next thing he knows, it's been sort of recycled into this huge little mix single. Yeah. And I just, I don't know. I love that. It's a version of that story. So I guess, of course, all of this sort of takes us back to the reality that there are no rules and kind of anything can happen. But still, taste is important. Um, being, uh, brutal as a critic of yourself and other people, being sort of ultimately brutal is like,

man, it's the worst, but it's the most important. Isn't it the worst when you turn up with stuff and people don't love it? But isn't that the most common reaction? So when something is loved, you clearly have got something. And it should be that way. And I think all art should kind of be like that. Yeah, again, I do think that a good collaborator

should be able to listen to most of those ideas. Because if you're coming in and playing it, that good collaborator should be like, that pre-course is amazing. Absolutely. That's true. What, you know, just again on your journey, what is success now to you? What is the goal? Keep going. To just be able to keep going.

And I say that almost with a little shudder. Because to have been able to do this for 10 years in the capacity that I have is really sobering lately. reminds me how badly I'd like to do it for another 10. And if I'm really greedy, I would like to do it for another 10 after that and maybe another 10 after that, if I'm really lucky, I suppose, by that point. But like, if there's any success at all,

and it's such a huge word and a difficult one in any context, then all it is to me is the opportunity to be able to keep doing this at this level. And I do hope a level above it, whatever that may be. If you want to call that like very, venue size or whatever, you know, radio or streaming positions or whatever, like getting,

you know, pushed to the front of those lines a bit and, you know, played more, whatever it may be. And as shallow as it may seem or may sound, obviously popularity in those respects is some kind of basic indication of hopefully kind of continued success. But like one of the eye-openeres every single time I get to come over and tour America is that you can tour sort of microclimates of this country, say like the North East and you can have a career for the rest of your life because it's a huge country. That's very

attractive to me and I think every artist and I feel lucky that I get to come over here and do as much as I do kind of brushing across most of the country for a sort of four to six week visit. I'd just love to be able to do more of that. Would you guys ever live here? We've like thrown

that into conversation a lot And at the moment still, the amount that I get to come here and that we will get to come here generally is sort of enough that we like to sort of feel rooted at home in England. So it's a pretty global kind of transatlantic sort of life at the minute, which is I can't believe I even get to say that still. And the other answer is, yeah, I don't think we're ready to sort of quite do that yet. I don't know. It's never off the table.

since the last time we taught you've released a lot of music but so in such weird ways because there was a pandemic there was you know you've been featured on on edm records yeah you've you know you did a song with uh i think the julia michael song had come out maybe just about before yeah just right around that but like you know you worked with macy's also been on this podcast now and you know you've had like like, so many things have happened, but one of the things that's interesting with those collaborations is it sort of is antithetical to the album kind of guy.

Definitely. But are you, do you, does that open up more opportunity? I hope so, because there's never anything wrong with that. And that feels like one of the big reasons that I made those choices. A lot of those sort of features and those kinds of, kinds of collaborations, especially the, like, a less-so-marsh-mallow situation, which was so foreign

and exciting, therefore, there was a pandemic going on. Everything, all bets were off. And actually, in the best way, and it was not nice to go through a global pandemic. I hope we never have to do that again. And I didn't enjoy, in hindsight, definitely. I didn't enjoy releasing music through a pandemic.

I don't want to do that again. It was hard. I was making half of my third album over Zoom through a pandemic, like so many people were. I don't recommend that. I don't want to do that again. respect to everybody I got to work with they're some of the best people I've ever met and worked with and it was

such a great opportunity to have given the times but I just allowed all I allowed everything to be a sort of option it was a bit of a why the hell not time and I'll always

kind of embrace that in hindsight like during that time. And so I learned some stuff. There are some things throughout it that I don't know that I'd do again. And it helped me in a kind of strange way because I really sort of just quite publicly

threw everything at the wall and tried lots of different things. It helped me sort of get back to myself. And it helped me focus and understand who I am as an artist. That will always evolve. I'll always be open to sort of evolution and changing and sort of trying to surprise myself

and do sort of unexpected things. I'll always want to have an open-mindedness in that way. But it also helped me sort of understand who I am. And although this can, I guess, I think this can be tougher an artist sometimes, maybe believe it or not. But like, help me understand who my fans kind of think I am or want me to be.

That is important. It's always important. I mean, we always talk about artists being six months or more ahead of where their fans are at with them. And that will always be the case too. but like, so there's a juggling act there that is only natural. Yeah.

It helped me appreciate that. You know, all of that time helped me appreciate all of that. Everything like I say just got thrown up in the air and when it all landed back on the ground, I looked at it and I was, I knew how I kind of wanted to arrange or I understood myself better.

Yeah. All the parts of me that sort of landed. It's funny when we talk about broken pieces and I say that thing about all the parts of me as they landed back on the floor. We are all we are all kind of, many things at once. We're never like one-dimensional.

We're multi-dimensional. We're many parts. Getting them all to sort of work together is this sort of life ambition and kind of challenge, I think. No question. Well, thank you for hopping back in and doing

this. I hope every time that you're on tour and you come through L.A., you hop on. Me too. Because I do think that there's a there are so many musicians that are trying to like stay afloat

but I'm sure we all are on some level and then there's some people who have an identity that is strong enough that it seems like the water's low enough you know they're not that

it's not there is that they can stand up. Okay, that's cool. And I think the fact that you're able, since we last taught that you've been able to release so much music, you're on tour at the, you know, you're playing at one of the greatest venues in the world, certainly in the United States tonight.

It's just awesome because you're continuing to earn the respect of those fans and all those people who are going to be there. you know, they're there to see you, man. Thank you very much. It's such a pleasure to be back, I have to say. I don't know if I've been invited back to many podcasts. And of all of them, this is one that I've definitely hoped I would.

I love it. Thanks, man. There you go. This episode is produced by Joe London, Mega House Management, and myself. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan signing off.