And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 184: Ilsey Juber

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

Today's guest is a multi-faceted songwriter who is as versatile as she is accomplished. Topping charts from multiple genres, this writer’s vocal chops are brilliantly unique. Her songwriting wisdom is unparalleled. She’s written with huge names from just about every genre — Drake, Miley Cyrus, Harry Styles, Kasey Musgraves, David Guetta, Nas, Panic at the Disco, Weezer, Beyoncé, Britney Spears, Pink, Dua Lipa, and the list goes on. After years of defining others’ artistic visions, she is now defining her own. In her debut album, From The Valley, she crafts an immersive, singular sonic universe that sounds like nothing else.And The Writer Is…Ilsey Juber! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Hey guys, I'm excited to tell you a little bit about what. one of today's sponsors, Peer Music. During a time of intense consolidation in the music industry,

peer music's rich legacy is something that can't be bought. Peer music has been family run since it was founded in 1928. From its entrepreneurial roots, the company has grown into one of the largest and most respected independent music publishing and neighboring rights companies in the industry. They have 39 offices in 32 countries, so they are big enough to help your music reach the entire world. Peer music represents some of the biggest names in music, including our former guest, Poo Bear, David Lee Murphy, David Foster, Nothing But Thieves,

Gabby Moreno, Cheyenne, The Tragically Hip, and many, many more. And peer music neighboring rights represents over 300 record labels and more than 3,000 artists including Billy Eilich, Imagine Dragons, Martin Garrick's David Gatt, Metallica, Megan the Stallion, Her and Strom A. Delivering nearly 100 years of

music publishing excellence, peer music is a trusted and widely respected leader in our music community. If you want to learn more, I recommend you go to at PeerMusk on all their social media sites and check out PeerMusk.com. ChartMetric is proud to sponsor the upcoming season of And The Writer is. As the go-to-stores for up-to-date global social streaming and audience data for artists and music industry professionals, chart metrics strives to ensure everyone can have a

successful career in music. They're easy to understand in powerful analytics on over 10 million artists and 100 million tracks will help answer all of your questions from tracking your stats to discovering new talents. Throughout this season, we'll be showcasing chart metric data to reveal insights about our featured artists like how Noah Khan is currently the top performing artists from Vermont by Spotify monthly listeners. Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Welcome to End the Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's

multi-talented song crafter is as versatile as she is accomplished. Topping charts from multiple genres, this writer's vocal chops are brilliantly unique. She's written with huge names from just about every genre. Like the kind of names that only need one name. Drake, Miley, Harry, Casey, Geta, Nas, Panic, Weezer, Beyonce, Brittany, Pink, Duo, and the list goes on and on and on,

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And yet, after years of defining others' artistic visions, she is finally defining her own. In her debut album, From the Valley, she crafts an immersive, a singular Sonic universe

that sounds like nothing else out there. And the writer is my friend, Elsie Juber. Wow, that sounds like a different person. Is that, do you look at what you've accomplished as a songwriter and have any feelings one way or the other? No, it just sometimes you look back and you're like, wow, that's a lot of things. Where did I even have time to fit all of that in to my life? Do you currently feel like you're doing enough?

Is it your personality that you, do you feel that in real, time that does it feel like you're doing enough or do you feel like you need more songs or write more? It's day by day, I would say. I think I'm pretty good now at taking time and understanding that if I don't take time for myself to live my life, I have nothing to write about. And that's been a huge thing that I've had to learn over my career. But I think I definitely have the those days where I'm like, oh no, I haven't written a song in a second, and I feel that itch inside. But I don't know. I don't feel that crazy feeling of like competitive everybody else is doing more. It's more that internal fire of feeling like I have something to say.

So you don't write every day? No. Wow. I feel like that's unusual in the songwriting community. Were you ever the type that would write every day? Or were you always this? Yeah, no, I wrote like two times a day, three times a day. When I first started, it was just nonstop. Well, let's go back to where you started. I mean, you know, famously, you come from a family of entertainers, but different kinds of entertainers than what you are.

So you were born, you were raised not too far from here. So tell me a little bit about your childhood. Tell me about your parents. Yeah, I was born in the valley just right down the hill, like 10 minutes away from here. and my mom was actually born two streets over from here, basically. Wow, so you're not even, I feel like a lot of people are first or second generation, but you're, you know, what, third generation L.A.?

Fourth generation L.A.? Yeah, I guess. I'm not sure. I mean, yeah, because my mom was born here, so I guess I'm third generation or second generation. But. One of them's a musician. I know that. I don't know much about your mom.

So tell me about them as people. Were they, your father's play? plays, you know, guitar for one of the biggest bands of an era. So how much in your childhood were you assumed to become a musician? I don't know that it was ever assumed, but I loved music more than anything for as long as I can remember. So I think I was always given the opportunity to pursue whatever interest I had in music. So the first was piano lessons and then I took to drums when I was like 11. And that was the first thing that I was really passionate about.

And, you know, that was kind of the thing that I was going to be, was a drummer. Interesting. And it was cool to grow up in a creative family because there wasn't this feeling of like breaking the norm in wanting to be creative. It was this sort of endless possibility of, yeah, you can do whatever you want. And it is possible because, look, we've done it too. When you're raised playing, not when you're raised, when you start playing drums, that can mean a lot of things. What kind of music did you play?

Were you a jazz drummer? Were you a rock drummer? So I became a jazz drummer eventually, but I started off by, I would put headphones on, and I would play along to Hanson. Oh, yeah, nice. It's my first favorite band of all time. And it was this weird thing because I was like, I'm in love with Zach Hanson.

And I had to be a drummer because Zach Hanson was a drummer. And then I was like, wait, I actually really love drums. And I would put headphones on, I would play along to Hanson, and then it was third eye blind. I'd play along to third eye blind, and then Dave Matthews band. And Dave Matthews band is really hard

to play drums to. I don't know if you guys have ever listened to the drumming on that, but Carter Beaufort, who's an incredible drummer. Very intricate drumming, and that actually led me down the path to jazz drumming, and I became a jazz drummer in my high school jazz band. I mean, Karen Carpenter is a famous jazz drummer, but I can't think of that many female

drummers. Who were your role models? I don't know. I think, I mean, Karen Carpenter was definitely the only one I can think of where I looked at her and I said, oh, she's a girl who plays drums and sings. And sings. And I wasn't really a singer yet until a little bit later. But then when I did start singing and playing drums at the same time, I was like, oh, okay, there's somebody.

Did you start a band at all? Were you ever in a band? I was in a lot of bands. I was in a lot of, like, funny little, you know, sort of middle school bands. Did you sing in those also? Not really until I was a little bit older. Yeah. What brought you into wanting to sing? I don't know. I think I, writing songs. So songs was the reason why you sang.

Yeah, I started writing and then I was like, well, I guess I have to sing if I'm going to be writing songs. Who teaches you how to write songs? I don't know. Because are those the same kinds of, listening to those, you know, Third Eye Blind and Dave, are you writing songs like that? Or are you writing songs like the jazz band? Or are you writing songs like that, you know, you're in Laurel Canyon. Where you're writing like Joni Mitchell? Like, what were you writing like?

I think I was writing like all of that. I think it was, I would listen to Dave Matthews and I would learn how to play a Dave Matthews song on guitar. And then it would be playing Dave Matthews songs where it would kind of creep into what I was writing. And then that would kind of sound like a Dave Matthews song. And then, you know, I would learn how to play a Joni Mitchell song. And then it would kind of sound like a Joni Mitchell song. And it was sort of an accumulation of all of it until I found, like, kind of who I was in it, which I'm still figuring out every day, by the way.

But I think that it was everything I listened to growing up, which was, you know, from Motown to the Beatles to Johnny Mitchell and Jackson Brown to Hanson and Third Eye Blind and Dave Matthews and everything. When did you show people the songs that you were writing? I probably wrote about three or four. And then I went into the living room one day and I played one for my parents. And they were like, oh, you're a songwriter now. That's cool. What age was that? About 14, maybe.

What was the song you sing? Oh, geez. Do you know the song or you just don't want to... No, I'm trying to remember the very first one. Uh-huh. Because there's a handful of them, but there's one called More Than I Can Take. Okay. I think.

I was very emotional as a child. Yeah. I think it was more than I can take. When your parents said, oh, you're a songwriter right now, having their musical background, were you encouraged to record that song? weirdly no actually come to think of it yeah because my dad had a studio in the back and that's where he would do all of his work and that's where i practiced drums but he wasn't like oh we got to go record this right now i think that it was just sort of like oh awesome actually the the encouragement i got was my mom being like hey you should go play at open mic nights

and I couldn't drive yet, so she would drive me to open mic nights. And that was a big thing around L.A. when I was a kid, or in middle school, high school, where at every coffee shop and all sorts of places around L.A., you could go, and you would put your name on a list, and you would get in line, and then everybody would go up and play one or two songs. And that's kind of how I got my start in playing in front of people and practicing these songs and seeing which ones people actually liked. I moved here right when you were about that age.

Yeah. And I never really performed the songs I had written other than in a dorm room. And I remember getting the Alley Weekly and on the back would have in between where I would have escorts. It would have the list of all the open mics. And you'd go and you drive like sometimes a half hour and you put your name on the list. and they sometimes don't even select you. I just remember sitting there being like, I just wanted a chance to perform these songs.

And I don't know if they have them. I assume they have them still, but that really felt like an era where part of, you know, you didn't practice by putting your music up on social media. You practiced by performing them in front of people and seeing what the response was. Yeah, so there wasn't like that you get the immediate response, but you don't get comments.

you don't get likes. It wasn't, there was, it was either people coming up being, hey, would you want to do a performance here at some point? If it was that kind of thing, or it was, you know, why don't you come back? Or people being like, wow, that was so good. And that was like, that was what it was. Yeah, 100%. And you would meet other songwriters.

Yeah. And you would meet, like, everybody that was doing the thing that you were doing. And then everybody that was booking the shows at the places that you were playing. And that's kind of how you did it. how you got shows booked and how you met people and how you got into the world of songwriting. So, did you have, being raised in L.A., did you have access to people in the music business, or was it more just through this process of, you know, performing and being heard and discovered? How did you get introduced to the industry versus performing music?

Those are two different things. Yeah, it's a funny question because I think people have an idea of, you know, I was raised in a family of entertainers and all these people that had all these connections to all these different things. But it was really much more proximity where I was around a lot of these people, but none of them could really do anything for me when I was, 14 years old in writing songs. And I think that eventually I had to sort of find my way of meeting the people that were actually

on my level or had anything to do with the thing I wanted to do. Because, you know, my dad was an incredible, is an incredible guitar player and played an amazing band. But he was on a songwriter and he wasn't doing the thing that I wanted to do. So I had to find the people that were kind of in that world. But growing up in L.A., you're so much closer to it. And going at a high school where there's all these creative people and people that are just a stones throw away from the places where all this stuff is happening. So I think that the advantage of being raised in L.A. and seeing it so close, it doesn't feel impossible.

And it feels like it's just you walk out the door and you're like, okay, which direction do I turn? So I feel very fortunate to have been raised in proximity to it and to have been given that opportunity. Are there people from your high school that are still in the business that you keep in touch with? Or even if they're anecdotally? Ethan Gruska went to my high school. Madison Love went to my high school. We didn't really know each other back then. Ethan, I kind of knew.

There's a guy Chris Hartz who plays with Childish Gambino took over for me as the jazz drummer and the jazz band. There's like a few people that kind of went in a similar direction. How often do you play drums now? I have a drum set in my studio. I play every once in a while. Sometimes I'll play on a record here or there. I jammed with Mark Ronson quite often. That's actually how we start ideas a lot of times.

Of course. He'll be on bass or guitar or whatever it is. And Tommy Brennan, who's an incredible guitar player, and the three of us will jam, and then I'll have the mic and I'll sing, and we'll get the first start of, an idea and then we'll take it into the studio and flesh it out. That's crazy.

What songs have we heard from that collaboration with Mark started from drums? All of them? There's a song 2 a.m. with Leaky Lee, and I'm playing drums on that song. And so the recording you hear is with me on drums. Oh, that's awesome. So that was pretty fun. And there's a few other ones. When I posted in this, when I was building the studio

and I was like, I'm looking for drum kits for the studio, you responded on social media. I was like, that's rad. I mean, I don't really post that many things. So it's like, you know, you respond with that. I was like, oh, that's a really, you know, somebody who knows what they're doing. That's kind of cool.

I don't respond so much, but every once in my wheelhouse, I'll say something. Yeah. Okay, so how soon after high school did you start, you know, what's the process going from high school to, you know, writing? When did you start co-writing? What are all, what's the process from there to being a professional? Did you go to school after high school? I went to Cal Arts for six months.

Ah, okay. So that was my little same thing called. Did you go for his drums? No, I actually went for, there's a program there where you can kind of create. create your own major and I sort of did a songwriting specialty thing there. But I was just like, I got to just go and do it. I can't like sit here any longer. But in high school, I was playing drums in a band with a couple friends of mine. And we would play at these like bars around L.A.

And we would have to wear tags that said that we were minors. And it was just like a, you know, I don't know why our parents let us do this. It was kind of insane to think back on. it, but it was very fun. And there was a girl who was the sister of the guy who was playing saxophone in the band. And she brought a friend of hers who she was in a play with, and her friend saw his performance. She was like, oh, you're super cool. Like, we should hang out and, you know, make music together, not knowing that I was 14 or 15 at the time. And so we ended up writing songs together and starting like a little songwriting duo.

And we would play at like Hotel Cafe and Genghis Cohen and go all around LA and do shows, you know, during the week and weekends and stuff like that. So that was the first time that I ended up co-writing with anybody and sort of learning what that process was. And I really loved it because I was like, oh my God, two brains on a song, that's better than one brain. So that was the first time I ever learned how to do that. Did you write by yourself during that also or once you experienced co-writing were you hooked?

I still wrote by myself. You do? Yeah. What's the process? What's the difference? It's a really good question. I don't know. I think when you're co-writing with people, you throw out a lot more ideas.

And it's a lot more of like, oh, what about this? What about this? What about this? And then you have somebody to bounce that off of. and there's immediate reaction to it, whereas when you're writing by yourself, it's so internal that the ideas are there, but you're not saying them out loud.

So I think it takes a little bit longer to, I don't know, maybe that doesn't make any sense, actually. No, it does, because you co-write, you get immediate perspective. Yeah. And the only way you get perspective by yourself is time. So you have to almost like go back, you know, at least maybe I'm projecting, But for myself, when I write alone, I have to go, sometimes it takes a week to write the right pre-chorus

because I'll look back, I'm not, something's not right with this song. Yeah. You know, and I don't know what it is, but, you know, you give it a break, you can go back to it. But I can't write fast by myself. I can, but it won't be good. You know, I mean, I can, like, as a circus trick,

I can show people how to write a song fast. Yeah. But, you know, to write something that's, competitive and better than, you know, a standard that I want to write with, I need time. And when you co-write, you get that, it goes so much faster, even just one other person to hear it and see their reaction to be, okay, I can beat that. Yeah, it's so funny, though, because I feel like when I was younger, when I first started writing songs in my bedroom by myself on acoustic guitar, it was much more of a process of

like spending a week writing a song, spending six months writing a song, whatever it was, where it was a lot of like digging deep into it and figuring it out. But as I've gotten older, I've sort of figured out how I write songs. And it's much more freestyle and it's much more just like opening that channel and tapping into whatever the thing is. And I think I've refined it over time where the best ones are actually very fast. But I didn't really know that when I was younger because I didn't know who I was as a songwriter

and it's evolved and changed and maybe 10 years from now I'll write songs completely differently and I think that that's okay but I think I was a very different songwriter back then that self-awareness is probably why you have such longevity in the business too

is being able to adjust as a writer personally and then you know that that translates to how the songs are that are coming out I mean just the idea of being able to evolve along with the industry evolving and all that. I mean, your process and their process altogether makes it a healthy change.

When you go from, you know, you stop school presumably around 19, there's a break between that and your first real cuts. Oh, yeah. What happened during those years? Where were you working? What was your personal life like? I basically left school and I met, by chance an actress who I ended up being a personal assistant for. And that was how I made a living

for about three years or so. And I... With it a TV or film or... Film. Yeah. And we... I would travel around with her. I would go to sets and I would, you know, just regular personal assistant work. But at the same time, I was writing songs and I was performing around L.A. and doing shows and, you know, inviting my friends and... trying to sort of build who I was as an artist, as a solo artist, and would go to all these places and do all these things, and I would meet all of these different people.

And anywhere I went, I had my guitar on my back. Didn't matter where I was, didn't matter what I was doing. So any opportunity I had to, like, show people my songs, I would be like, hey, can I play you a song? Can I play you a song? And all of these different people I met, I had no idea what was going to lead to what. and I ended up meeting an actor named Terrence Howard who was in Hustle and Flow.

And Hustle and Flow had like just come out and it was nominated for all of these Academy Awards. And the actress I was working for was Taryn Manning who was in Hustle and Flo with him. And it was like in Las Vegas at a trade show because she had a clothing line. And it was just one of those chance coincidence kind of meetings and he had a guitar in his hotel room when we went to go say hi to him because she was like, hey, I want to come say hi and congratulate you on the Oscar nomination and all that stuff. And he was just strumming on his guitar. And she was like, oh, Ilse, play him a song. Ilsey's an amazing guitar player and singer-songwriter.

And so I played him a song and he was like, that's the most amazing thing I've ever heard, whatever he said to sort of hype me up. And he ended up keeping me there, or all of us there, for like two hours and playing songs back and forth and he's kind of an eccentric guy and so it was very him i would come to learn to do stuff like that but i met him the next night just like on a whim and i walked in and he was with bon jovi and bon jovi's manager john bon jovi's manager and he was like this girl's amazing you know we got to like make her a star and i would just play the same song for everybody everybody i met i had like this one song it was called halfway there

didn't think at the time that, you know, I was playing a song called Halfway There for a guy who had a song called Halfway There and didn't actually occur to me until later. But it was just all of these things that kind of toppled on top of each other and all of these moments and all these people I was meeting. And then he ended up getting a record deal, I think based off of hustle and flow and making an album. And he brought me kind of into that process.

And, you know, as a part of that, he got a label deal and tried to sign me to that label, and it was through epic records, and I had like this deal on the table, and I was like 19 or 20 at the time, and I was like, this is it. This is like my moment where I'm going to make it. And then deal got taken off of the table.

Why? Everything kind of fell apart. I don't know. I think it was, you know, at the time, it was the worst thing that it ever happened to me because I was like, this is, you know, the universe doesn't want me to be an artist, or people don't believe in me enough, or I'm not good enough, or I don't look right, you know, I don't sound right, whatever it was

that was going through my head. And looking back now, I'm like, thank God it didn't happen back then. Because I wasn't ready. I had so much that I had to sort through. Personally, I had so much that I had to figure out as an artist and creatively and all of that. So it was just this really kind of pivotal moment where it could have happened and it didn't. And through that process, I ended up meeting Jody Gerson. And she was the president at the time of EMI publishing.

And we were at the studio and I was like with Terrence while he was recording. And she walked in to meet with him because I think there was a point. possibility of him maybe signing publishing deal to EMI. And he was like, Ilse, play her a song. So I brought my guitar out and I played my go-to song. And I, like, sat on the ground in the parking lot playing this song. And she was like, oh, you should come meet with me at my office. I met with her at her office. And she was like, you know, you're awesome. You've got to be an artist. I want to like introduce you to some people. And she gave me a couple numbers for some people she wanted me to hang out with one of them being a guy named Van Hunt, who is an awesome R&B singer, amazing artist.

And I hit him up and I don't remember exactly how it happened. But he said, why don't you come down and meet with me at the studio with my manager? And I said, okay. And I went down to the studio and it was Westlake, which we were just talking about, good cookies. And I walked in and his manager was Randy Jackson from America. I was like, I know that guy. That's the guy from TV who says dog all the time. And I played him my go-to song. And he was like, you're awesome. We should do something together sometime. And I was like, yeah, for sure, let's do it. And so we ended up meeting. And then there was this idea he had of

starting a band that was like a Fleetwood Mac kind of group, Crosby, Sills, and Nash. And so a couple of years later, it took a little while to sort of like formulate that idea and make it a reality. But he ended up doing this project with me where I started a band and brought in a couple other people that I thought were really talented. And we tried to make this like supergroup together. It was called the Canyons. And it was like one of the best times of my life was starting this super group with Randy Jackson. And Alison Porter was an incredible singer. ended up winning the voice a few years back. Elle King was in the group at one point before she ever had a record deal.

We had Jordan Lawhead, who's an amazing singer-songwriter. He's in Nashville. Jason Reeves wrote songs with us, amazing singer-songwriter. It actually was kind of a super group, but it was just early. And then, you know, eventually it ended up kind of dissolving. And through that process, though, we ended up signing a publishing deal. And so I had this publishing deal. Who is that with?

That was with Sony. So Jody had moved over to Sony. And she was, you know, I think a fan of what I was doing. And she was friends with Randy, obviously. So it was a natural fit to try to go there. And I signed this publishing deal with the band. And so when the band kind of fell apart, I still had that publishing deal. And I was like, well, I have no idea what to do now.

but I have this publishing deal maybe I can just write some songs maybe they'll be for me maybe they'll be for other people don't know what my next move is but why don't I just try like seeing if Sony can hook me up with some producers and that was sort of the start of all of it Peer Music is a leading music publishing and neighboring rights company that has been championing songwriters and artists for nearly 100 years

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Cheyenne, the Tragically Hipp and many, many more. And peer music neighboring rights represents 300 record labels and more than 3,000 artists, including Billy Ilish, Imagine Dragons, Martin Garrick, David Gettit, Metallica, Megan the Stallion, Herr and Stromé. So, if you want to learn more about a global music publishing and neighboring rights company that moves with integrity and treats their roster like family,

go check out PeerMusic.com or follow them on social media at PeerMusk. Our good friends at ChartMetric have all the data you need to power your music career from playlist placements to stream. dream counts, to follower demographics, and many more. It's never been easier to understand how your artists fit in the music industry and how they can grow.

Chart metric does the work for you, providing actionable insights and visuals on their up-to-date global data that covers over 10 million artists and 100 million songs. So there's no math required. Use it to find out things about your favorite artists and any of the other. artists and writers on this podcast. Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Were you working on the side during all this,

or was it because of, you know, were you able to make a living from being a musician at that point? So I was still working as a personal assistant up until the time that I started the group and we signed the publishing deal and that held me over. I had put like $25,000 in my pocket, which was so much money at the time.

And I remember thinking, oh my God, I never have to work again. And I bought a leather jacket, and I was like on top of the world. I got my leather jacket. I got $24,625 now. So I ran out of money eventually. And, you know, over this process

and over this time, in being in this group and just, you know, life, I ended up getting sober during that time period. And when I ran out of money and I needed somewhere to work, I was like, well, I guess I could try working, like, you know, at a rehab. Like, the one thing I know how to do outside of music is not drink or do drugs. So maybe I can go help people with that. And at least I'll feel like I'm doing something that's worthwhile and meaningful. So there was a rehab that a couple friends of mine who were also sober were working at. And we're like, oh, just come here and you can interview and see if it's a good fit.

So I ended up getting a job working there as like a tech. And then I was a sober companion for a little bit. So I was writing songs and then working at this rehab at the same time. Do you still, are you still active in that world? Yeah. I mean, to a certain extent. Not working at a rehab. No, I think you're busy now.

but what was the impetus to get sober? I mean, you know, I think that I hit a point where I was like, I just either keep doing the thing that I'm doing and nothing changes in my life and I keep feeling the way that I'm feeling, which was miserable, when all of this great stuff was happening around me and I couldn't really feel good about it. Or I changed something and I try something different.

And I was lucky enough to have, you know, Allie, who was in my band with me, was sober. And when she came into my life, I was like, oh, my God, somebody young, somebody cool, somebody that, you know, I know who doesn't drink or do drugs and doesn't need those things to feel good. What is she doing that I don't know about? So that was definitely like an eye-opening experience to be able to see somebody, you know, close enough to me that just was living in a slightly different way. We talk a lot about attainability, how when you're younger, it's like being, you know, if you know somebody who's been successful in some field, whatever it is, you may, you see that and you're like, oh, I can do that too. But that works, that same concept works with sobriety, especially in L.A. You know, where it's like, it's supposed so much of the alcohol drug culture, especially in music, especially in entertainment, especially in L.A. when you're playing at probably the key club and the Troubadour and the whiskey and the Viper room,

everything is about drink tickets and free booze and it's just part of the life. And it's until you know somebody else who's like doing the same job but doesn't feel like they need to do that. And you're like, wow, that's so structured. Yeah, exactly. And I think that for me, you know, I, I, I, I, I, did drugs and I changed my, you know, chemical makeup and everything that I did for the same reasons that I wrote songs and for the same reasons that I do a lot of things in my life. And it's that, you know, whole inside of me that feels like it needs to be filled.

And whatever that is for me, I think a lot of people can relate to that feeling. But I think that there's healthy ways to cope with that. And then there's unhealthy ways to cope with that. And I think that when you see people that, you see people that you're just deal in a different way. You're like, oh, it's possible to not have to, you know, fill that hole with things that are actually going to hurt me. But, you know, like you said, it's seeing it in front of you. And so much of sobriety, what they talk about is like attraction rather than promotion.

And just by living your truth and by living authentically and just by being a happy person, people are like, hey, what are you doing? like why don't why I never see you with a drink in your hand you know I never see you smoking a joint like what is the thing that you're doing that seems to work and then you say oh this is the thing that I'm doing so but yeah there's I have friends who are songwriters that are also sober and who I've watched get sober and it's like a really beautiful thing and I always tell them like draw a line in your discography from a point that you got sober and just see how much

your life has changed if you ever question it it's so crazy how many that percentage of guests on this podcast that are sober must be a majority. I mean, the conversation about addiction and about sobriety comes up over and over again. And there's something not just about being sober, but about the, there must be some correlation between addiction and music success. I'm not saying addiction like, um, uh, like they're doing the drug or the alcohol or whatever you're addicted to. But some personality,

some innate personality between somebody who uses that in their life and then gets sober, like why is it why is it that the majority of these guests are sober and not people who just don't do drugs? There's something in that

a natural personality. Yeah, I think it's because we're artists and, you know, artists see the world in a particular way. And we have certain sensitivities, and that's why we're able to take what we see and translate it into art is because we feel things a little bit deeper, and we feel things a little bit, you know, we're like a little bit more raw, and our skin's a little bit thinner,

and, like, that's what makes us good artists, I think, but it's also what makes us prone to having to cope in ways that are maybe destructive. And, you know, I think, it's like something that everybody has to kind of look out for when you enter into the world of like being a creative for a living. And even, even now, it's like I work with people every day, or not every day, but I work with people all the time where it's, you know, artists that I go into a room with where I'm taking on so much emotion every day. And I'm digging deep into my feelings

every single day and processing and processing where, you know, most people go to therapy once a week. and as a writer you know you work with these people and you're processing emotion all day long and it can be a really vulnerable place so you know

what are you doing to mitigate that you have to like do self-care and you have to figure out ways to like be balanced and it's really hard for people to figure out how to do that it takes a long time in your life and you know

and that's the best case scenario what year is that that you've started that you become You go through, well, you go through rehab earlier, but when do you jump to, I'm not working in a facility anymore, and I'm now just a songwriter. Is it before you write the songs that we know, or is it good?

Yeah, so I didn't go to rehab. I worked at the rehab, but it was right when I first started working with producers. And essentially what happened was I was working as a sober companion and it was this really interesting job where I was like, you know, attached at the hip to one person for 24 hours a day and, you know, for three or four days out of the week and then I was able to spend the other days writing songs. And I did that up until the point where the songwriting became more demanding. and I didn't have really any cuts yet.

But I think that it was starting to look imminent. It was starting to be like, oh, okay, this looks like it's going to happen, maybe. And I think that there was something inside of me that just knew if I was going to do it, I had to take a leap. And I knew that there was going to be a moment where maybe I wasn't going to have very much money, but I had to be uncomfortable. in order to like push something forward. And any time in my life I've ever been uncomfortable is when things have changed.

So I think that if I had stayed at that job and that like, you know, padding of knowing that I was going to be able to just skate by every month, I don't know that I would have pushed myself to really go full force into writing. But, you know, I had like all these songs I'd have written and that I wrote and and I had submitted them to my publisher. and things were looking like they were maybe going to happen. And the way that it really started was there was one song I wrote that, you know, Rihanna liked, I guess, and it was on hold for her. And so all these people thought I had a Rihanna cut potentially. So they were like, oh, cool, this girl's got a Rihanna cut.

We'll work with her. And that's really what opened all the doors for me. Did that song come out? No. Did anybody? She's the elusive one for me. I mean, every time she's cut a song in mine that hasn't come out, it's turned into something good.

So, like, I'm like... Exactly. That song never came out on anybody. It's still, still the one that's floating around. I mean, it's crazy because you do go from, you know, it's... You have a cut here, a cut there, you're getting the deals. Then all of a sudden, and, you know, we can go through some of these. But this is how crazy it gets once it starts to roll in, you know.

Jennifer Lopez is obviously a big one. Fireball, Pitbull featuring John Ryan. produced by the one and only Joe London. And then it's like, 2015 is Drake? You're featured on a Robin Schultz song that becomes like a legit song. Mariah Carey,

Ellie Goulding, is, you know, with major laser cascade. It's all over the place. You know? Like, it jumps from you just,

it just looks like you just went from, this is the, it takes 10 years to make an overnight success. It's so crazy. Then it just goes. I mean, we can talk about individual songs, but, you know, Beyonce then after that, and

you know, it's cool that you went back and worked with Allison Porter. You know, Nick Jonas, and he's at his height, and Martin Garrick's and Britney Spears and Sean Mendez. And then the Sean Mendez song really becomes kind of your first like hit hit. Actually, I guess

Fireball is like a real hit, too. When you're hearing these songs in public, Does it change your perception of yourself as a songwriter? I think it made me more confident. I think that songwriting is all about confidence. So I think it made me feel like I was a better songwriter because I was more confident. I could walk into a room and feel like,

okay, maybe my ideas are actually worth saying out loud. But I think, you know, I was the same songwriter the day before Fireball came out that I was the next day. It's just, yeah, it's a funny thing. Like you said, it takes all these years to be an overnight success. But it really, the pivotal point, I think, was like, you know, I was writing and writing and writing and writing and writing. And then I remember the day that I found out about the J-Lo song because there was like talk that she was going to cut it. That was really my first cut.

That was the first one where I was like, oh, my God, there's an artist recording my song. And I was in. And not just an artist. like an artist everyone. The artist that at Thanksgiving you can say, have us on with J-Lo, and they're all like, oh wow. Yeah, and I remember telling my grandma.

And, you know, my grandma who's no longer with us, but was just like the most incredible woman and just so opinionated and so real. And she didn't, she wasn't impressed by much, but she was like, oh my God, Jennifer Lopez. I know her. I know who she is. and she really was impressed by Pitbull too.

But I think she called him Pig Pen or something like that. So basically I was in London and I was dating someone who lived in London at the time. And I was kind of going back and forth a little bit. And so I was writing out in London and writing in L.A. And I was like couldn't sleep. I was jet lagged and it was the middle of the night and I was like scrolling on my phone. And it was when Perez Hilton was still really big. and there was like something that popped up on Perez Hilton

that said Jennifer Lopez is never satisfied and that was the name of the song and I was like I was like wait that is he talking about my song and I clicked on it and it was a clip of her performing the song at a show in like Dubai or somewhere you know far away and I think she had like previewed the song or given a you know sneak peek of it or whatever and I was like oh my God she did my song

and I my heart started racing and I was like this is it. I can actually do this. This could actually be like a thing where people want to, you know, record my songs. So that was a really pivotal moment for me. And then shortly after that is when I got invited to do this writing camp with Joe sitting over across from me, start from infinity, which was like really, really, really big important moment for me because, you know, felt like I worked with all these people and did any of them really like. And did any of them really like me and then all of a sudden I was invited to this like really special important writing camp with these guys and I was an only girl and there was like five guys and just me.

My mom was like, are you sure you want to do this? Is this safe? If you knew those guys. And I had no idea what I was walking into and it was this beach house in Oxnard. And I walked in and it was we ended up writing fireball. We ended up writing headlights like the same day. and another pit bull song, day drinking, it was just like the most magical experience. And I was like, I think I found my people. I think I found people that actually like have the same mindset

of just wanting to have fun and be creative and understand this for what it is. And it's not a job. It's just about like making something great. And I can, and headlights was the first time. I was like, oh, I can write something I love. And I can write because I want to write and not because it's a job

and not because I have to, you know, write to some prompt where it's like they send out, oh, you know, Selena Gomez is looking for this kind of song or this person is looking for this kind of song, but I can just be me and I can just sing my melodies and I can like write my weird left stuff that like maybe people will like and maybe they won't, but it might not be right for everybody, but sometimes it is. And that's what headlights was. And that was really, really important for me. Because, you know, and luckily I got to end up staying on that song and singing it, which was huge. But I think it was a perspective shift because all of a sudden I realized I didn't have to try to be anybody else.

I could just be me and write my songs and not necessarily my songs as an artist yet, but just go with my instincts and not be afraid. You know, keeping you on headlights is probably a mark of both of those things. As a writer, you find your identity, which then in turn is like one of those moments where it's like, It is harder sometimes to pitch those songs when you're like, God, Elsie sounds so good on this song. Like, why would we try to find somebody else? And it's all those things start to combine as one. You know, when you can feel the confidence to, as a writer, you know,

then that's being a real artist in his core. And so it comes across. That all makes sense. at that point where you're starting to think John Ryan at that same camp after the pit bull thing starts to talk about releasing music he's featured on Fireball

you're featured on headlights was the next step for you internally even if you're doing all these sessions was it you know what now is the time to start branching out because this year is still we get to today where you're releasing an album was that the first moment you're like you know what I need to be an artist also

I always knew that I was going to make an album at some point. I knew that I had to figure out how to take the next indicated action, always. And it was very clear that I had to follow this path and just go where it was going to take me because it felt like a fast-moving train and I didn't want to get off of it yet. and I think that, you know, it was always inside of me that I was going to make an album when it was the right time and when I had something I had to say. And I just didn't know what I wanted to say yet, and it wasn't the time yet. So I knew that I would know when it was the right time.

And headlights was awesome because it allowed me to, like, have that feeling still and know that it was still in me. But it wasn't the right time yet. They're the kind of writers that seem to write, you know, you look at their discography, you see all the names of the different artists. And then they're the kinds that have like, they've only worked with one artist or two artists, but they've done all those songs with them. And although you have a few of those artists that you've been consistent with,

you've written on so many different songs. Is that because you pitch a lot of songs? Is that because you just enjoy going to different kinds of sessions? all the time, or is it because that's just the way it worked out? I think I'm just me, and I just write what I feel, and I just try to be authentic in every session that I go to, and when I walk into the room, I don't really have an objective. And so I think that a lot of people have this idea of like, okay, we're pitching for this person today, we're writing a song for this person today, and for me, it was more just like, let's

write a great song and let's see where it lands. And I think that that allowed me to like not really have those limitations. And so where I thought that I, you know, was writing this song for Lana Del Rey and, or not for Lana Del Rey, but I thought I thought I was writing a song that sounded like Lana Del Rey to me a little bit. And I was like, oh, that's kind of a cool vibe where I wonder where that's going to land. And then all of a sudden it ended up like, I got to call it, you know, magic. Jordan was cutting it and that Drake was going to be on it. And I was like, that's not what I thought this was going to be at all. You know, and I think that those kind of things where you can't really predict who's going to respond to what. And so I've stopped trying. And I think just writing what

I feel, trying to be real, trying to say something that feels meaningful. And if it's something I want to listen to on the way home, I don't know. Like I said earlier, it's like it's not going to be right for everybody, but somebody might like it at some point. So just to have fun with names as we keep going, train, Lincoln Park, do a, you know, Demi Lovato, Kelly Clarkson, these are all just songs that keep coming out, Camilla Cabo, you know, Anne Marie, Diplo, Christina Aguilera, and then High Hopes. And you have all these songs come out, and it's still every time. like, oh, cool, these songs are coming out.

But there's sort of a different thing when you are a part of the zeitgeist. This was another one that was written in a camp. Why do you write so well in a camp? I don't know. I think because it's fun and I'm not thinking too much and I'm just having a good time. I mean, yeah, that's why they're the best.

You know, we don't even have to go into that song too much because we all know that song. But there's just so much, Geta and Rita and Rita and, I mean, Michael Boubley, I usually don't do this, by the way, but most people don't have a discography like this. And then the relationship you develop with Mark Ronson, you know, one of the most influential musicians of the last 20 years,

how do you meet him and why do you guys have such synergy? The why do we have such synergy? I don't know if I can answer that, but that was another just really chance you know kind of fate encounter where I I don't know I had an instinct one day to text Diplo because he and I have had a great relationship over the years he's brought me in on a lot of amazing stuff he's always really believed in me and he was one of the first people to kind of take a chance on me as a writer and so I check in with him every now and again and I texted him and

I was like hey what's going on dude like you know hope you're good Are you in L.A.? And he's like, yeah, you should come by the studio. I'm going to be with Ronson tomorrow. And I was like, I think he means Mark Ronson. Oh, my God. Because I've been such a huge fan of his for, you know, as long as I can remember and looked up to him as a, you know,

not just a producer, but as an artist. And just everything he's created. I mean, talk about Zykeyes. He's been like kind of a... Yeah, he's really part of the whole, this whole generation. He's like shaped a sound of, you know, what we think of as music for so long. So I was like, I've got to be there. I got to make that happen.

So I think it was the inception of what they were working on as the Silk City project. And I went down to the studio and, you know, it was just one of those days where they were like throwing around a bunch of tracks. And they said, hey, can you try to write to this track? And I walked in the studio and Mark was sitting playing piano. in the other room. And I just picked up a guitar and I started like, you know,

playing something to what he was playing. And he walked into the control room where I was playing guitar and he was like, oh, that's cool, you should lay that down. Before we ever said hi to each other, before we were ever introduced or anything. And, you know,

that was kind of our introduction. And then I tried a couple things on one of the tracks. I don't really write well to tracks. So, you know, didn't really go anywhere. And then I think it ended up being electricity, if I'm going to be honest.

but, you know, missed the boat on that one. But, you know, those are my favorite stories, by the way, of the things that I almost could have been on and then, you know, didn't quite get that. The writing new tracks is, as Savin said, you know, it's writing a screenplay to special effects. Yeah. I definitely wrote a song called harmonica in one room after the song Whistled by Flowrida came out. And I was like, oh, this track has a harmonica on.

it and the other room wrote timber right to the same track and it was just like I was pretty close there because he had to cut one of them that night I definitely wrote the one that had the worst concept and it was it's just throwing dars kind of

yeah man I mean every once in a while but also you've heard tracks be like oh that's going to be a smash and then it's like you spend all the time writing on it and no one ever hears it that's more common and I think Mark has told this story before so I'm okay with sharing it, but basically he was getting ready to leave. I think it was like 5 p.m.

And it was kind of one of those days where like I didn't really get anything done and he probably didn't think much of me at that point. And in my mind, I was like, I'm not letting Mark Ronson walk out of the studio without knowing like that I can write something. And so I was like, hey, can we, you know, try something from scratch? And it was just the two of us left at the studio. I think Andrew Wyatt had been there that day maybe and that people had been filtering through, but it was just the two of us at that point. And he kind of looked at me like, yeah, I guess. Like, I'm trying to go home, but, you know, we can try something.

And so he picked up the bass, I think, and then I picked up like an SM7 mic. And I think there was an engineer in the room that just kind of pressed record. And we started, he started playing a bass line. And I was just in panic mode. And when I go into panic mode, I write great songs. Because I think it's just adrenaline or something happens. and I just started freestyling and it ended up being like the full, you know, first verse to late night feelings, which was the title track to his album.

And it was kind of one of those magical moments where I was like, cool, there's something cool. And I think he was like, whoa, I actually really like that. And, you know, and then we just sort of left it at that. And then maybe two months later he sent me, you know, a sort of mocked up production idea to it. He was like, I think we can beat this chorus. I was like 100%. And I was working on an album with Lakey Lee at that point.

And we were sort of deep in the process of that. And I think I had told him that. And he said, do you think Leakey would want to work on this? And so we went down to the studio together and we ended up writing the rest of the song. And that was sort of the beginning of our relationship. And then it kind of blossomed from there. And we just work really easily together.

and he, you know, he's just such a musical genius and he lets me be me and it's just really easy. Do you have concepts when you just freestyle or do you just freestyle freestyle? Sometimes. Sometimes I have like a title in my back pocket. But I never really will say what the title is if I walk into a room.

I'll never be like, hey, why don't we write a song called this? It's more, we'll just sort of vibe and, you know, jam. And then if it feels like that title, I might try to sing it and see if it fits. So if we write together and you're like, Mango, there's a mango.

I'm like, I think I know which song. I'm like, Harmonica. Yeah, it's a harmonica. He'll be like, wait, God, that was such a bad song. I don't know how it goes. I don't want to know how it goes, but somewhere in the deep bowels of hard drives

at APG there's a song called Harmonica. You know, there's lots of pink, Miley, Alicia Keys, it's just awesome. Because I think the getting to meet so many of these people is, I think that's why I really enjoy the business is because there's no math that should put the three of us in a room right now. There just isn't. If you look at us from our childhoods, when we were born, who our parents are, where we like, you know, it's just so unusual to get any three musicians in a room, any three people at all. But then to get to work in the business where you're in this studio and you're with Sam Smith.

And you're with, you know, you're with some of these people who can sing the way they can. You're just like, how am I with? How am I here right now? It's so good to keep, for me, if you can keep that sort of perspective of, This person is brilliant. Like one of the best, these people are some of the best of all time. Elton John featuring a Lil Nas X on the you get nominated for. Yaba, who's amazing and has not gotten the credit she deserves.

You know, Weezer, these people are just legends. 1975, no one gets to write with them. Nobody. Do you think that they come to you or is this part management publishing? Like how do you get to 1975? Man, I don't know. I feel like I just fall into these situations sometimes. And I don't know how I ended up here.

I genuinely don't know how I ended up here other than like I said earlier just following the next indicated action where it's like, cool, I'm supposed to be here tomorrow with this person. Let's just see where it goes and see where it takes. makes me. And, you know, I think that working with Mark opened so many incredible, I don't want to say open doors, because it's not, it's not really that. It's more just like, that relationship brought me so many places that I, I don't know that I ever would have gotten to. And he was so generous with me. And he was so generous with his creativity and with his time. And he,

he really just brought me into his world. And his world is really incredible. He works with the best of the best. And so there was a period of time where he was working on all of these projects and he would just say, hey, come in the studio with Harry, with Miley, with whoever it was. And that allowed me the opportunity

to meet all of these people. And then once you walk into those rooms, it's then your responsibility to show up and do a good job and show people, you know, that you're capable. But, you know, you have to have people that are willing to take a chance on you. And he was one of those people that was willing to take a chance on me. And so I think, you know, in working with him, I ended up meeting B.J. Burton, who is one of the most incredible producers I've ever known.

And, you know, and such a talented, deep, amazing person. And he... works on these projects that, you know, a lot of people, I'm sorry I way to say it, he works on all my favorite projects. And he works on the albums that I've always listened to and been like, man, what does that sound? What's that? You know, how can people write like that, sing like that, you know, whatever it is? And so, you know, when you work with the people that do the stuff that you listen to,

it's the fact that I'm ever asked to come and work on any of that, blows my mind and I pinch myself being in those rooms with those people and you know the fact that any of them want to hear what I have to say but you know you're never anywhere by mistake so I have to also remind myself of that and just be like okay you know they wouldn't want me here if they didn't if they didn't think that I was capable but it's definitely like it's definitely a very strange experience to be with the people that you really admire and to think that they actually care to have you there. Well, now on the, now that you're releasing music as an artist, you know, you release a song, a cover with Boni Vair. Is that the connection through BJ? Is that how you? Yeah, so B.J.

introduced me to Justin Vernon. And, you know, I've been a Bonnevere fan for as long as I can remember and he's one of my, you know, it's one of my favorites. And like most people, I think, who love great music and can at least recognize that he's like, you know, otherworldly talented. And I've always, it's funny. Like, there's a lot of people where I'll listen to their music and I can hear myself as a writer and where there's maybe a space for me to come in and, you know, write something with them someday.

And there's never really been anybody where I've listened to them. heard myself as an artist. And I would listen to Bonnevere sometimes and be like, I hear my voice in there. And I would like, you know, I could sing to his songs and be like, this feels right. And it's a weird instinct that I kind of had before I think I even met him. And, you know, BJ introduced us one day. And we pretty much immediately wrote a song together and recorded it. And it's going to be on the album that's coming out in October. And it was just this like soul connection. I was like, oh, that's probably why I felt that way about his music is because I sort of knew that there was going to be some connection between us. And I was just so fortunate to get the opportunity to, you know, go out to Wisconsin and work with him

out there during the pandemic. And the pandemic gave us this sort of time to work on my album together. And he helped on a bunch of it. And BJ did the whole thing with me. you know, it was a really crazy experience to be able to do that album with the people that that I respect so much and listen to. And, you know, if I could have put any dream team together, that would have been it. And so the fact that it fell together naturally like that, I think, was really a blessing. What are the next steps for you as an artist and a writer? Is it just to keep your head down and keep doing all the things? Or is it to double down on the artist? path. I mean, I don't know. I'm just kind of on the journey right now. I'm going to see where it

takes me. I'm so excited that this music is finally out in the world and the rest of it's about to come out because for me, I learned a while ago to try to stay out of the results when it comes to songwriting because the high for me comes in the room when you write the song. Nothing ever feels better than when you get like that feeling when you have an amazing lyric or you get an amazing melody and you write something that feels so good and nothing tops that for me. So for so long, not so long, but for a while I was like, oh man, if this song hits number one or if it gets big or if it wins some award, I thought that that was kind of like the prize, but that feeling never feels as good. So why is that the thing that we're always chasing when if you just chase the feeling of the

process itself, you're so much happier. So I think that for me, I've had to sort of apply the same mentality to the artist stuff where it's like if I just focus on performing and focus on the experience of like letting the music live and do what it's going to do, like the fact that I get messages from people that actually really like it is such a bonus. But I just really wanted to make a thing that I was proud of. And it was a dream to be able to make an album. And whatever it does now is not really up to me. I think that I can do my best to promote it and I can do my best to like, you know, try to get people to hear it. But that's not really ultimately in my control.

There's no question that. In the end of your career, you look back, at the things that you loved most, not the ones that other people loved most, as the things that really represent those moments. I mean, other people might define people's careers by hits. And there's one thing we learned from this podcast is none of the writers really do.

Yeah. You know? I mean, sometimes they're the hits. But that's just a coincidence. versus, you know, and it may be the biggest hit of your career, and you may have 10 albums that are, wherever they go, it's totally irrelevant

because it's the bleeding out your artistry that makes it the thing that you want to show people and they're like, you know, at some point when you're meeting with someone and they haven't heard it, you're like, you should actually listen to that. That's me. You want to really know me.

It's this album. And I'll be the next one and the one after that because that's who you are as a writer. Yeah, and just having a place to put my, you know, like who I am as an artist. Totally. And it's weirdly allowed me to be a better songwriter for other people and with other people

because I'm like, oh, I have a place for all of my stuff. I don't have to let that bleed into like what I'm trying to write, you know, or what I'm trying to help other people right now. But I think that you're right though because it's, you know, ultimately when I look back at everything that I've done, the moments that stake out to me are the moments in the studio and the moments creating the songs. And, you know, I remember, like, all the time that I've spent with Miley, who's, like, one of my favorite people to work with and such an incredible, not just artist, but person. And she would always, like, whenever she was

recording something and I would be, you know, watching her do her vocals, she would always, I always say that I had like my cutting smile on because I would always have this like gigantic smile whenever she was cutting a vocal because I just couldn't believe that I was getting to watch her sing what we had just written because her voice is just so insane and then the fact that I get to be the person in the studio watching her sing it. And that's how I feel about most stuff that I do is like I can't believe I'm in the room. I can't believe I get to be a part of this. And it's like those little behind the scenes moments. And when it comes out, out, it's like, oh, that's a bone, you know, it's fun to still know the journey, you know the journey

of how the song went from it. Yeah, I'm just thinking about when we wrote it and I'm thinking about like, like the special moments and even, you know, the songs that don't come out are sometimes more special and like those moments of like intense, you know, deep writing where you get into the weeds and you're really trying to figure something out and you get like emotional with people and all of that. So, I don't know, there's so much richness in it. All right, so we're going to go to this last segment that's going to be five for five and just going to list five things and tell me what comes off the top of your head.

Okay. Okay. We're going to start with Little Canyon. Yeah. Home? Mark Ronson. Genius. Patty Griffin.

Genius. That works. Your dad. The best. I'm going to just add one. Wings. Legends. Your mom?

Legend. I don't know. No, those are great. It's amazing. You could say, you know, that's what they mean to you, too. Like, they're just, those things become beacons. They become, you know, if you're a genius, you kind of look up to them. If they're a legend, they may have, like, influenced you.

My mom is, you know, like, it's funny with my mom, because she's an incredible writer. and she, I was applying to a school when I was younger and, you know, and weirdly enough, like, the reason they didn't let me is because, like, my writing skills weren't up to far. And she spent, like, a summer working on creative writing with me. And she just has so much care and thought that she puts into her writing. And also the passion that she put into, like, supporting me and wanting me to succeed as a songwriter. And, like, she still drives around listening to my writing. demos from when I was 15 and she has on a CD in her car and I'm like you know I have new music

and you know I think that my parents support has been I don't know where I would be without it and I don't know who I would be without it because the fact that I was born into a family where it was nothing was impossible and it was almost mundane to be pursuing a dream and there was never any plan B. There was never any backup. In fact, you know, because my grandfather was a writer-producer and he was, you know, one of the best in the world and a legend in his own right. And writing for him was his plan B. He wanted to be a doctor and they wouldn't let him into medical school because he was Jewish. And this was back in the 1940s or whenever it was. But like, the fact that that was his fallback made it so that the rest of us felt like we could. And he was,

could do anything. And I think that that mentality of feeling like there was never any doubt. Yeah, I think that that's made me kind of who I am as an artist. And like I said earlier, like confidence is writing. And having the confidence to say the thing that you think might be crazy is everything. And when you walk into a room and, you know, with a bunch of other people, like so many people are scared. And you censor yourself because you don't want to seem stupid and you don't want to seem silly. But the stupid, crazy thing is the right thing most of the time. Thank you for doing the podcast.

I think we've known each other for a while now. And there are certain people when every time, you know, I watch my peers' careers, zizz, zizz. And, you know, you're seeing somebody who just really has the, the ability to write with other people in a way where they're obsessed with what you're doing for them. You can tell, you don't just get to write with these people.

A lot of times people say, like, oh, man, I want to be in a better room, or I want to write with this artist. I want to write with this artist. But when they get in the room, they don't do what you just said. We're like, at the end, you have to show up. And part of showing up is

making that artist feel like you are creating this song with them and it's their song and you're of service to the artist and clearly you just bring out this you bring out that joy for so many different artists and so many different genres

whether you wrote it in the room or not they find themselves in it man it is so hard to have a one song come out on a major label at some point in your career. It's another thing to have a laundry list of Hall of Famers that listen to you, like, Elsie Juber and her talent,

and that, like, you have defined so many of these Hall of Fame careers. I hope you look at that whole thing and, like, you know, can absorb at some point the impact that is made on their fans and on their lives. And I wish you the best as an artist because obviously you're writing with all of our idols. Like all of us idolize the Ronsons of the world and VJ and Justin. Like, man, you're in it, but you're in it because you keep providing them with the experience. And it's just like you just, I admire you. I admire you. I admire your career. And thanks for coming through.

Thanks, Ross. You guys are the best. Thanks, Joe. This episode is produced by Joe London, Mega House Management, and myself. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan signing off.