And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 188: Lostboy

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

This week’s guest is one of the brightest rising stars in the music business. This drummer turned songwriter entered the production space out of necessity- when your band needs to record music and you don’t have anyone to do it, somebody’s gotta learn. With a wildly successful couple years, this Brit is his collaborators favorite producer and an all around amazing human. From Pop, to Dance, to K-pop and more, this writer has incredible range and we’re so excited to see how he continues to grow. And The Writer Is…Lostboy! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Chartmetric is proud to sponsor the upcoming upcoming. season of and The Writer is.

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at chartmetric.com. Hey guys, I'm excited to tell you a little bit about one of today's sponsors, Peer Music. During a time of intense consolidation in the music industry, peer music's rich legacy is something that can't be bought. Peer music has been family run since it was founded in 1928. From its entrepreneurial roots, the company has grown into one of the largest and most respected independent music publishing and neighboring rights companies in the industry. They have 39 offices in 32 countries, so they are big enough to help your music reach the entire world. Peer music represents some of the biggest names in music, including our former guest, Poo-Barre, David

Lee Murphy, David Foster, Nothing But Thieves, Gabby Moreno, Cheyenne, the tragically hip, and many, many more. And peer music neighboring rights represents over 300 record labels and more than 3,000 artists, including Billy Eilich, Imagine Dragons, Martin Garrick, David Gatt, Metallica, Megan the Stallion, her, and Strom A. Delivering nearly 100 years of music publishing excellence, peer music is a trusted and widely respected leader in our community. If you want to learn more, I recommend you go to at Peer Music on all their social media sites and check out PeerMusic.com. Hey, if you've listened to this podcast for the last few years, you know about LAMP. LAMP is the Los Angeles Academy for artists and music production located in Santa Monica a few blocks from the beach. They have an incredible campus. They have common areas

with the live stage and they host open mics, but most importantly, they have 15 recording studios. with a world-class one-year intensive high-level music program founded by Stargate, our good friends and super producers who did songs like Firework and What's My Name? Diamonds, Irreplaceable. Think of Lamp as a nine-month high-level songwriting camp featuring world-class mentors. They've had, you know, Betty Blanco, Circuit, Emily Warren, Neo, Diplo, Stargate themselves, Jimmy Naves, Kenny Beetz. They've had presidents of publishing companies, major ANR executives.

They've had super producer managers like Jay Brown, who has Rihanna. They have top-rated mixing engineers, vocal producers, lawyers, business managers, all kinds of business professionals that help you with a Wednesday, Thursday workshop that they're so known for. They've now been going on their fourth year. So if you want to learn more information about LAMPMUIC.com. That's lampmusic.com. Thank you for being fans of this podcast, LAMP, because we are fans of yours. Welcome to And The Writer is, I'm your host Ross Golan.

This week's guest is one of the brightest rising stars in the biz. This drummer turned a songwriter. Entered the production space because when your band needs to record music and you don't have anyone to do it, somebody's got to learn. With a wildly successful couple years, this Brit is every one of his collaborators' favorite producer because he's apparently one of the nice guys. and the writer is Peter Rycroft aka Lost Boy Wow

This is honestly Like I feel like I'm in a simulation Hearing that I've listened to you Do that intro for Years In from various locations mainly like my bedroom Just feeling like this is another world

Away from where I am Wait so First of all that's awesome And second of all Wait What you know, let's go, what bedroom are you talking about? You're talking about while you're in the UK,

like when you were younger, when you're in the aspiring phase, like what, I don't know where, where are we in this? Like, I've just, I want to... That bedroom that I'm listening to Ross Golan is, like, Northwest London, just moved in with some friends and doing sessions, like,

practically in my underwear with my flatmates, like, it was so awkward and so, it was never ever close to what I was hearing like your glamorous like LA life and it felt a million miles away so it was welcome it's good to have you um thanks I wouldn't I wouldn't let us talk too much before because sometimes it's fun to record actually meeting somebody because in reality that's you know in the intro the whole concept of this thing was that the best part of a session is that first hour when you meet the people you're working

working with you. Wow, you're rad because you go into the studio, you're tired, you just dealt with some insurance shit, and you just dealt with your like gassing up your car, trying to get breakfast or whatever, lunch, and then you show up and you're kind of like, I guess when I'm doing a session, you show up and then you're like, man, these people are brilliant. And it changes your whole day the minute you talk to people. So I like capturing that. Totally. This sounds so bizarre but I always feel like I'm getting married in November and we've been talking about I just talking about love as you do when you're about to get married but it's I've gent this sounds ridiculous but I genuinely feel like I've fallen love with people every day like it's it's

so it's such an emotional sport that I'm sort of like we're just so spoiled with with that sort of emotional connection that most people go years without having and we have that daily with people we meet random people we meet in sessions were you like that before music no are you like that are you like that when you meet anybody no i come from i'm british bro i come from like a very reserved well fairly reserved very loving family but it's you know like it's just the classic british thing of like you only tell someone you love them if you have to kind of thing but i i just like i've met so many unbelievably open people over the years. And I genuinely think it's influenced my personality doing this.

Yeah, I think the idea of really diving deep when you're in a session and trying to get to an emotional place forces this co-therapy. Everybody ends up saying things that you just don't say when you're at a, you know, out in the open. You might not even say to your significant other. if you don't have a healthy relationship, but you might say it to a co-writer. Totally.

And it's like sometimes those days where you're really digging emotionally, I get home and I'm just absolutely drained. And I have nothing left to give. It's all left on the field. Do you bring it home? Do you bring the emotion from Sessions home? I really try not to.

But I think my, by nature, I'm quite an obsessive person. So I think I can't help but sort of live it for at least 24 hours. I think I'm getting better at that life work balance. And that's something that I really needed to figure out because I would just be in it all the time. And especially in those early years when I was working out of a bedroom or working in my, literally in my home,

the place where I slept was the place where I made everything. That was almost impossible to switch off because it was just... It was the same room. It's the same room. Yeah. You know, I think the life, work, balance is a bit of a myth. Because the minute that, you know, the wind blows and it starts to get out of balance,

you often overcorrect. You overcorrect the other way. And it's the reality is like you never find it. It's never, there's no there. And there are days, there are moments where you're like, this is the moment of a balanced life. But the minute you walk out, there's like, a butterfly effect. And you're like, oh, this is fantastic.

Oh, you know what? I should have been in the studio tonight. I should have done. Like, you know, and I could have, I should have been, why was I, why did I do this when I could have been home with my, you know, and it's, it's just the, that's, I feel like if there's one way to define the life of an artist. Yeah.

It's, it's that you never get to the balance. It's the process of, of working on finding balance. But it's never trying to get to it. No, I hear you. And I also think that on balance is a massive privilege, you know, to be in that position where you're, where you're, there's enough going on or, you know, you're having, you're trying not to say no to things. That's, that's got to be good. Like, let's go to the beginning. You were raised in, and I have no idea how to pronounce this. What is it? Morton and Marsh in the Coswald. That's, that's right. That was great. Perfect. What it, that all sounds like your hobbits. Hogwarts. Hogwarts. Yeah. That's what I meant. Yeah, I mean it is essentially that. It's sort of like a... Where is it?

I was born in London. It's just, it's like two hours north of London in the English countryside. And it's very quaint. And it's a massive tourist destination. And it's just, it's very... I think my parents moved there because they were sick of London. And it's a very, very, very quiet, peaceful, sort of beautiful part of the countryside.

But sort of growing up there. as a teenager in bands, specifically metal bands, it wasn't conducive to our, you know, worldwide rock star fame, which we were chasing. So it was like three of my mates in a garage playing progressive metal and then taking that to like the Village Fair and playing to a bunch of maybe three or four, five-year-olds running around at the front of the stage.

Was it like Screamo kind of stuff? or was it more melodic? I mean, I don't want to undersell it. It's like it was very almost math rock. Yeah. Like very advanced kind of ugly music. Very technical. And I think that's...

When you listen back to it? Are you like this? I try not to. Yeah. What was the last time you listened back? Maybe a year ago when I saw some of the guys from the band. But it was, it's a harrowing experience. When I go, I remember playing my old high school band.

We got a studio. you out here. Two of them. They just happen to be in town. We're like, you know what, let's go jam. And I'm thinking, man, this is going to be a blast. And it was just musically a disaster. I love both of them. They're probably listening to this in their various cities right now.

I just remember being in that rehearsal studio and being like, I am useless here. I don't know how to play any of these songs anymore. They probably love it. They're probably thinking like, we killed it. Little do they know you hate any experience? You know there are other

you know who some of the other metal drummers that turn producers that are successful in the pop world? Well, no, but I know, like, speaking to a lot of the MXM guys, there's a lot of that stuff there. Shelbeck and Max are both pretty proficient in that world. That's where they came up. And they still have the hair. Yeah, they do.

But there's something about that math that translates well, because when you're thinking sectionally and you're thinking moving through different tempos, the changing up feels throughout a song, that stuff becomes really valuable when you're in a session and you're trying to come up with a feel and everyone's like, I don't know.

Or if you're the guy, we'll get to it. But when you're doing some of the productions you're doing where it might be like faster tempo, pop, a lot of people sort of freeze go into sports, splice and just find faster tempos but there's a difference when you're a drummer who has to... For sure and I also think there's massive parallels

with like the in pop music with the grandness, the drama of it. I think that that's always been a part of everything I do is just sort of... And there was a phase where I was... This is really sort of fine detail but

I noticed a couple of years ago that a lot of my pre-choruses would be build in a very sort of metal way for one of a better word and it would be a very sort of like everything would drop out it would kind of build build build build and then there'd be a sudden stop

and then we're in and it's like that's essentially what we were playing in the band every day. I don't think that's a coincidence you know. What was the band called? Pergatory shift. Okay so. Yeah, pretty metal. Yeah, no, I mean like it would be weird if you did that

and it was like, bye, bye, bye, you know, it's like, pergatory shift. You guys all come out and you're wearing neon. Yeah, no, it was all black, baby. So what kind of, you know, the story that going through notes and stuff was that you guys needed to record and you figured out how to record your band. Is that generally accurate? Generally, yes.

It was, like I said, we were just, you know, trying desperately to, I think we won like a recording experience. with a local engineer and it was just awful because we were in the in the Cotswolds and there isn't really any of that there. Was it awful because of the recording experience or because of the band? I think we try, we at least tried to blame it on the recording

experience but most likely the band but yeah regardless we sort of found our way into production and all our heroes at the time were using Pro Tools which is what I still use to this day which is hilarious considering some of the music

I've made over the last few years but we were just winging it man it was i mean it was awful really was awful but we were we were just getting the trucks how old are you at that point 16 you're you're uh you grew up in a family that likes music um yeah i mean wasn't i wasn't i wasn't it wasn't not the same kind of music but no oh god no i mean my my dad grew up i mean he he listens to a lot of a lot of classical music actually and a lot of choral music but on car journeys and and the thing that the kind of things that I remember being surrounded by at a young age were like Peter Gabriel Phil Collins Genesis and like some of the like 80s like foreigner like really amazing.

Those first three I really have a lot of synth-heavy stuff really you know especially you know synth-heavy sort of Prague pop yeah and it was a Totally. You have real... You also have real drummers and all that. 100%. Yeah. I think also I remember hearing Seal and just that...

I think Seal was honestly that was the moment, like Kiss from a Rose, something clicked in my head regarding production and just sort of pop music in general. Like Trevor Horn's production just opened my eyes and I... I think I just suddenly realized that pop music was so fun, and I sort of became obsessed with that in a math sense, like I was obsessed with the progressiveness of these awful bands that we were in. And it became a different kind of math, just like the perfectness. Did the band accept that, you know, when you're, I don't know how much time you guys are spending together,

not playing, but if you're sitting there listening to Kiss from a Roe, and they're listening to Megheth. Are they like, that's weird that you're listening to? Or did they not really? Was that more inside? I think I definitely kept it private. I mean, it was like, I wasn't hiding it,

but I think they just had no interest in that kind of music. And I could feel this part of my brain lighting up. And then I just started to make little ideas that were more pop-leaning in my spare time when I wasn't trying to like, comp guitars. A dad who listens to that kind of music and being on those

road trips listening to that kind of music, when you start playing in a heavy metal band are they disappointed? No, they were so cute. They were the most supportive parents for all of it. And actually, my dad's a lawyer and they would

come to every little show we did, every village fate, every whatever it was. The village hall. And they always really supported it. Any sort of creativity. And they got me like piano lessons and drum lessons when I was a kid. So I think they always wanted to nourish that.

But actually, he's always been very vocal about you've got to do something you love, whatever it is. And hearing that from a guy who's been a lawyer his whole life, it really stuck with me. And even when I was deciding where to go, like around the time that I went to uni, or moved back to London. That was the main point of conversation. Does he love law?

No. No. I think that's the lesson. It's a story of don't do what I did. Yeah, I think so, a little bit. He would never say it in those words exactly, but yeah, that's what it felt like. So eternally grateful for that, yeah.

When you start, I was trying to my wife about this this week, I said there's a moment when you tell your parents that you want to pursue working in the music industry. Not just like this isn't a hobby, but this is what I want to do with my life. That's akin to, and I'm not saying it's the same,

but akin to coming out of the closet. It's a little bit of like, hey, I'm going to, yeah, mom's dad. I don't think I want to be a lawyer. I don't want to be a doctor. I don't, I'm going to move to London. Yeah. And in your case, I know you only went to school

for a year, right? Yeah, that's right. So, like, what is that like to go to an attorney who has that, even if they're supporting you, doing whatever you love, what is it like to say, I'm going to move away from home, I'm going to go to London,

I'm not going to be in this band. What is that process? Like, and how did that feel? I mean, this is so, I think I always felt like that's what I was going to do, and I think they knew that. So there honestly wasn't any pushback.

I was so lucky to have that from them. I think maybe my grandparents and a bit more traditional, they were maybe a little more like, okay, but what about a plan B? Are we going to get this degree? Especially when I dropped out of uni, that was a bit of a moment of like, okay, what if it doesn't work?

What are we doing? And I don't know. It's so interesting these courses, especially the university that I've, I went to... Which was that? It was called London Centre of Contemporary Music, I think, in London Bridge. And I went...

I've been back and done talks and sort of panels at music unis in London since. And it's quite hard to sit there and hand on heart and be like, this is where you need to be. Like, just keep working, get your degree and then walk on over to Sony Music or whatever it is. Because that's just not what this is. And it almost feels completely... What do you say? what this is with the industry?

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely an amazing thing to do if you're looking to meet people and collaborate. And I think that's the main takeaway that most people get from those kind of experiences, but it's not like you complete your course and you're in, you know, as we all know. It's networking, working, working, working, working,

meeting as many people as possible and just getting going as soon as you can. Well, that's the entrepreneurship, part of the music business. Even unless you had unless you were going to school for maybe medicine or

something where it's like you get an internship out of school or you finish your whatever your next level and master's and doctorate and then you get your intern. There's like a really clear ladder. If you're an entrepreneur no matter

what it is, regardless in music. Like nobody's going to hold your hand and nobody's here to help you. You find mentors and they're the ones, but no, the minute you graduate, you're on your own unless you have, you know, an incredible support system.

So it makes sense, but who says to you, you get to school, are you studying at that point, production? No, I was, and this is the other thing, I was studying songwriting in an inverted comments, so I never studied production officially. What did you learn in,

that made you feel confident enough that you didn't have to learn anymore? Well, this is the thing. I mean, I have a very vivid memory of looking sort of over my teacher's shoulder and seeing the lesson plan for the day. And it was something like song structure conventions,

middle eights, and I swear to God it was like milk, egg, sugar. Like, it was his shopping, Like the guy was not, he wasn't teaching us. There was only, I feel like there's only so much you can teach with songwriting as it is, but there was just no effort being made to really put us on us or really teach us anything. So it, and I feel like with songwriting as a whole, you can teach certain things, conventions, the history of songwriting, but the bottom line is creativity.

And that is a very personal thing. It's like, it's like teaching art. So when did you start writing songs? Because if you apply to go to songwriting school, you started writing songs before that. When you were producing with your band, Purgatory Shift. When you're producing Purgatory Shift, are you writing the songs as well? I assume yes. Yeah.

Right? Oh, yeah. And what's the first song that you're like, you know what? I'm, you know. This is so dumb. But we had a song called Magpie. Uh-huh. How does it go?

I genuinely can't remember. I can find you a clip on YouTube, but it's very embarrassing. Is it of you guys playing live? Yeah. I think this might have been a previous band, actually. This is like I'm trying to think of the very first song. And my idea of songwriting was just non-existent. So I believe this song was called Magpie.

No bird references whatsoever. Nothing to do with birds. I'm not even sure if there was any mention of the title. How many sessions have you been in in the last? year where you're with an artiste artist who's like I'm going to call the song the equivalent of magpie

and you're like yeah but that's not what the chorus says and you're how about we call the song. I've done a few of those and you're just like still there are still artists and there are writers who listen to this that go to sessions and think that it's an artistic

decision to have a title that doesn't reference anything in the song and in reality that's the first and not connect the dots for your listener. Yeah, it's just setting up a hurdle out of the gates. But I don't know. I think we just thought we were so deep, bro. Like, it was so deep.

We were like 50. When was the first song that you wrote? We were like, this one's actually really good. I think I started, well, I started to get interested in electronic production. And then my songwriting genuinely was pretty bad in terms of lyric. melody. I hadn't really had a chance to work on that at all. And I was just working with friends from school and trying my best to sort of figure out what a song might be. But to be honest, obsessing more about the way the track sounded than the song. But I remember the first time it

clicked was sort of full circle actually playing a song back to my dad when I was, I don't know, I must have been 16, 17, working with an artist who was a, friend of mine and him making a comment about the lyric. And I suddenly realized that most people, most normal humans who aren't obsessed with the math of production and they just hear words and melody accompanying a word. But at the end of the day, it is language. And that's, it's something just clicked to me then that I was like, this is the most valuable part of any composition. Is the lyric?

Yeah, I think often it is, especially, you know, I didn't really sing much either as a kid, so for someone who can't sing, the melody is what it is, but the lyric is just so key. And that was a real turning point. And I remember I did this really early on, I went to South by Southwest to do this writing camp, and I was with some amazing Nashville writers. There was a guy called John. Josh Kerr, who was there. Yeah, of course. Love him. And it was the first time I've sat around a table after the session that night, and people are just passing a guitar round. And lyric is being spat out in a way, in the way that you would tell a joke. Like there's a setup and there's a release or a punchline or whatever it is.

And that genuinely was like an almost a spiritual experience to see that happen in front of me. and people react like people screaming and getting excited about a lyric. And I'm just watching these guys play like three chords on a guitar. And the lyric is doing all the work. And so since that point, that was in maybe 2016, not even that long ago. But that was a turning point. And if anything, became more obsessed with lyric than production after that. Our good friends at Chartmetric have all the data you need to power your music career.

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Their musical journey began with a revolutionary N.R. man named Ralph S. Peer, who is widely credited with the first Latin record. the first blues recording, and, of course, the Big Bang of Country Music, the Bristol Sessions. Peer Music has built their company on their unwavering devotion to music creators and performers, and to this day, is still championing songwriters and promoting songs of cultural importance. Pure Music represents some of the biggest names in music, including our former guest, Poo Bear, David Lee Murphy, David Foster, Nothing with These, Gabby Moreno, Cheyenne, the Tragically Hipp, and many, many more. And peer music neighboring rights represents 300 record labels and more than 3,000 artists, including

Billy Elish, Imagine Dragons, Martin Garrick, David Gettit, Metallica, Megan the Stallion, her and Stromé. So, if you want to learn more about a global music publishing and neighboring rights company that moves with integrity and treats their roster like family, go check out, peer music.com or follow them on social media at peer music. If you've listened to this podcast over the past few years, you know about LAMP. LAMP is Los Angeles Academy for artists and music production, located five blocks from the beach in Santa Monica. They have a state-of-the-art campus, featuring a classroom of 45 in real-life students.

Common Area is a live stage where they host open mics. They have 15 real recording studios. They have a world-class one-year intensive high-level music program founded by the super producers, our friends, and guests, Stargate. They've been responsible for songs like Firework and What's My Name, Diamonds, Irreplaceable, a ton of hits. Think of Lamp as this nine-month, high-month, level songwriting camp featuring world-class mentors from the music business including Benny Blanco, Circuit, Emily Warren, Neo Diplo, Stargate, Jimmy Naves, Kenny Beats, a bunch of

our guests, some presidents of publishing companies, major A&R executives, you know, superstar managers like Jay Brown who has Rihanna, you know, top-rated mixing engineers, vocal producers, lawyers, business managers, all sorts of music professionals featuring on their Wednesday, Thursday workshops. So they're going on their fourth year, and those are just examples of people who might be your mentor if you get accepted to LAMP. So if you're interested in being one of the students who learns how to write and produce songs every single day, which is the norm for them, then you should visit lampmusic.com. That's L-A-A-A-M-P-Music.com. And thank you, L-A-A-M-M-P-M-U-C-C-com.

We are fans of yours. Yeah, it's strange how setting up a lyric, setting up the title, you know, in that spirit of the checklist thing, it's like you're selling air for a living. You want people to buy something as the product. It's just the least sexy way to think about it. But, you know, once you have that title, that's the utility of the song. Yeah, it's the t-cha. It's the branding. It's the branding of the song, of that air, of that three minutes. And if you can't frame the title well, then there's, you know, I know a couple of NR people feel like if you have to wait till the post,

we've all written the song where like you just repeat the title a whole bunch in the post, which is like four sections too late. But either way, like what that means to me, if you have to repeat the title 10 times to get people to hear the title, and it's not the chorus. I don't mind that, you know, this girl's on fire,

this girl's on fire, this girl's on fire, this girl's on fire as your chorus. That's fine. But if it's your post, it means you didn't structure your chorus well. Right. And like you didn't even like, you didn't care about the thesis of the song.

You were so busy worrying about words. It's so true. You didn't care all about the listener. Because it's only about the listener. It's not about you the writer. Yeah. And from a, what you just said made me,

think like it's all about the words that being a brit based in london really like trying my best to sort of i guess i've always felt like a sort of u.s-facing writer or i've always a lot of my early success came from pitch and i think i realized quite early on that the title was played a massive role in that if i'm just hurling songs over the atlantic hoping for the best the lyric and the title and the way it looks was always a very important thing in my mind. Even what you just said, the way it looks, there's a famous production team

that I remember I posted. So the easiest way to date your songs is to put the date in the title. And a lot of people just put when they wrote the song in the title for their own reference. But what you get is a person who sees, oh this is in October of 2017

and they're not they're not interested in cutting that song but if you just sent the title or you do the you know the way you capitalize it even the way it looks we should start putting future dates on songs imagine that A&A would lose that I'm just suggesting that

2024 hits bro I'm just suggesting that for our song later today that we're doing we are absolutely going to do that Okay, so you get to London, you're like, you know what, school's now for me, I've done my year, I'm out. Yeah. That was a bit of a... I mean, it was a bit of a punt, but I felt like I'm not getting much from this school apart from meeting a few talented musicians who I can collaborate with. So I just started doing sessions and working with randoms.

Me, initially. Are you like searching online for these people? people? Yeah, just hitting people up. Yeah, I mean, from uni and then just... And then people also know that what you do, so people are saying like, oh, well, we can always bring in Peter. I guess. I mean, not really.

It definitely felt like I was borrowing into... Really? Yeah, I wasn't at all... You had to prove yourself. Yeah, I was just trying to, yeah, make friends. And I would go to like open mic nights in London, in Camden, and I'd see meet people and just started doing... To produce and write with at that point?

Yeah, or just trying... I mean, even just... You said you can't sing, but did you do open mic nights? No, I was just there as a sort of spectator and trying to meet people to work with, but it was a sort of just very slow process. I was also making my own... It's so antithetical to how people work now, because everyone's like, they look on Instagram and they look for that, but like the physical presence.

I know, I mean, that's quite old school, isn't it? Yeah. But it obviously worked. It made them see a certain effort and it was a tool that you used. I think I thought it was a bit romantic as well. I just thought, you know, like, I'm going to go and see someone and then I'm going to go and say, I love your music.

Can we please try and write a song together? But having said that, I was also making a lot of music on my own. And I think the first turning point was that I'd made this, like, weird EDM song that had no lyrics. I don't think it even had any vocal. And for whatever reason, it got picked up by Radio 1 in London, and it was played

once a week on the BBC introducing slot at the time. How did you get it to them? I think at the time you could just submit music, so it was like, you can just send in your music and they'll go through everything, and if there's something they like, they'll play it. Did you have it on streaming services

or anything? Yeah, oh yeah. Under Lost Boy I think, no, it was under my initials, which is so dumb. It was like PJR, P-J-R-R, pure, pejor. Cachy. Yeah, exactly. A couple

umlouts in there. Yeah. So that was... When did you... When did you... When did the name? You weren't lost boy at that point? No, I wasn't. I think I realized, after that happened, I'd met a few people. I met my manager. I met my lawyer.

and I just I'd started to get a sense of oh you can be a producer sort of songwriter a jobbing producer songwriter as it were that could be my my path and it was something that I've always been obsessed with working with a massive variety of genre and different people so the name lost boy comes I mean my name's Peter so it was a sort of Peter Pan reference initially but it's also because a bit of a joke because I feel like I've always worked across a bit of everything. I always felt a bit lost genre-wise. So it just stuck. I mean, it was sort of a joke to begin with and then it and then it just stuck. And that was, so that was sort of the beginning of the journey. And then

I met Fraser T. Smith. Just the best. Yeah, he was a hero. And I think at that time, like I said, I was trying to do a bit of everything. And I'm, I walked into this guy's studio and sat in front of me was a dude who had just, who had done Britney, he'd done Adele, and he was just about to jump into Stormsy and Dave. And it's, it was like, come on. Like, this is, that's what I want to be. Like, he can do, he can turn his hand to anything. Um, so that was an incredibly important time. He also is a really good person for, when we were talking before and we're about you coming to L.A. and not living here, you know, But by coming here, it opens, it makes your time really valuable when you're in L.A.

Yeah. And this is your story and not mine. But my first trip or two trips that I went to London, you know, I worked with Frasier and Steve Max, Steve Robson. I just remember them opening their doors to me in a way that, you know, I wasn't necessarily getting into those equivalent rooms in L.A. yet. And I don't know if I was British if I would have earned that spot. Yeah. You know? By coming, there was some like, the leaving home to meet people,

it's sort of this equivalent of showing up to an open mic night. Right. And people being like, oh, you're present. You're here to do this because you love it. It's brave. And someone like Frazier was so, he was so welcoming. and we've worked since. But, I mean, just those moments, you never forget.

So I just wanted to take a moment and give a shout out to that guy. Because he obviously opened doors for both of us. So that's cool. Also, he had an assistant who brought, I remember being so jet lagged. And there was always a fresh tea right to my side. And I just remember just being wired and exhausted. Yeah, that's amazing. He is the man when it comes to looking after people.

and I learn a lot from him about just being present with the artist, taking an hour, two hours to sort of be, just a bee, before anything. That's really interesting. He was the first guy. You know, we'd done a couple, he eventually signed my first publishing deal, but we'd done a kind of a few trial sessions, and I remember getting there with my laptop and being like, God, why are we going to do something?

We'd be sat there for two hours just talking to whoever it was. was and then I realized that's how the trust is built and that's that's it that's the main part of the session is getting the trust and getting the stories and what's going on in your world and that that was a massive massive wake-up call versus what's the alternative to that well I think up up until that point I just assumed and I was you know young and nervous in sessions and like okay let's just let's just get something going like let's get a vibe going play something quickly chords do you like these no okay we'll try something else and not really taking a breath to just sit and find the lyric find the lyric but this is a thing i mean i talk about

this all the time with especially being here with american writers but i think sometimes in london in the uk as writers there is we fall into this habit of it can sometimes feel like four people sat on a sofa staring at the back of someone's head, waiting for a vibe in inverted comments to appear. And no one's had a conversation about the emotion, the lyric. And that is so frustrating to me when that happens. It always depends on who the writers are. And there's just a level of writer, I think,

that goes in and dives in maybe faster. This is the part of pitch songs that, look, when everybody is, when everybody in the industry is trying to write with artists, now is a good time to write pitch songs. Right. Because a lot of those artists are too busy now that they're touring again, that they can't really, you know, they're going to run out of time. Yeah.

And they also need hits. Totally. And that comes from people who do it day in and day out. Yep. And who aren't concerned necessarily with the tour and aren't concerned with like the merch, you know, maybe a little bit. But they're just more, you know, songwriters are just more sad that we don't participate in it. But we're more likely to show up in a session.

And, okay, what do we need to do right now that gets, you know, you catch up a little bit. But it's like, let's go. What's the deepest thing we can write right now? And you get a room full of people that. Yeah. You can attack that a bit quicker when it's about the, yeah, when it's the sport of writing. But I think when I was with. With artists, Fraser taught me that you have to take the time and be the friend.

And that was amazing. But a lot of my career has been pitched just because of the nature of where I live and where I've been aiming. And I think that's something that, like you were saying earlier, about showing up and being around. That's so important for new writers and young writers to sort of not just be present in L.A. or wherever it is for the sessions, but to be present for the pitch of the song, really. My first ever pitch, successful pitch was a Zed record that I played in a meeting. And that was my first time actually seeing the dots connect. And it was amazing.

Did you think it was easy at that point? I was like, this is great. Why doesn't everyone do this? Easy. And then since then it's a nightmare. When you're in, you know, you're around Fraser and you're working on these records, maybe not as a writer, but as a co-producer of some sort.

Yeah. Did you feel like it was your place to say, well, what about that lyric? Or what about that melody? Or did you always sort of just sit back? No, I think I was probably overconfident. Or I was at least trying to show willing, you know. And it slightly cringes me out to think about it

in hindsight, but he just sort of created an environment where the best idea wins. And that's sort of something that I've kept with me. Getting the Zed cut, and Zed Kalani is like a massive jump, because that's a worldwide kind of thing. And you had had some other things at that point. But yeah, especially for a little British boy, that was like, wow, these are real Americans. Did you celebrate it? I think we did. I mean, we didn't really, yeah, we were aware of it being a moment,

but it genuinely was just sort of so, the whole thing was so surreal to me. And I was actually in Vegas for a writing camp when it came out and we went to meet him. And the whole thing was so bizarre. And being, living in London and hearing about all this stuff, happening like it's going to come out this time and this is the video and all this stuff again another reason to be flying to l a or flying to wherever las vegas and be present is to make it feel real and to celebrate it like what you're saying is we didn't throw a party but to be there and see it and meet the people and feel the reaction i think it's kind of vital to make it

that real and tangible to sort of give you that energy to keep pushing for those things things. Right now, as today, songs come out and you look at the Spotify numbers and it's a video game. You can't really feel it. And really, to be honest, if it's a million or 10 million or 100 million or a billion, all of it is just a longer number. But you're still looking at that number alone in your room, on your phone, or on your computer. And you're not experiencing.

people listening to it in the wild. That's where radio is exciting often too. If you're not going to see the artist live, you're going to miss the opportunity to absorb who you're writing the song for. Totally. I think it's always more nourishing or like fulfilling to hear the song organically or to see things reacting in society,

a culture moving with a song seeing little memes on Twitter about a song is worth tenfold like 10 million streams to me you know that's just because it's real it's people's lives people are you know

making funny little memes with a song you made that is that's that's why I love TikTok as well I think it's sort of you can experience it a little more than it you can feel people really reacting in you know the good thing comes out in 2019.

At this point, are you still living that flat with all those roommates? Yeah. Are they trying to do music? Yeah, but they were

in like function bands and wedding bands and things like that. More of a like, you know, jobbing musician, guitarists. Did you find any sort of,

was there any competition or was it, you being the first of that, of your literal flatmates to, to jump up to that kind of level.

Not that they were trying to do the same thing, but was it hard to navigate people's envy? Yeah, no, I don't think, weirdly, not really with the musicians, but I did have another flatmate who was he was working in, he was a chartered surveyor, like working in property. And I think

him, maybe the sort of juxtapositions of our career paths at that point was so clear to him that I think it actually it was quite hard for me to explain to him that this is you know I'm just like messing around in my pants upstairs all day and this is this is sort of what I do now for a job and he's like exhausted coming back from the office and it and it he's a really close friend we grew up together and it really was it got quite hard at points he was he got really down about it and

just comparing these these two lives and it actually got to the point where he quit his job and became a freelance graphic design dude. So I'm so proud of him for, but it felt like that was sort of a real, I could feel the rub there and it gave me a massive appreciation for what we do. That song comes out in 2019 and I imagine that you start feeling momentum as anyone does when they have a song that's that a big artist cuts, certainly the first one, and it's a single,

and it's the first time you pitch a song, and then there's a pandemic. And most people that I've talked to on this, the pandemic happened after they've sort of reached, you know, a certain, you know, kind of rung the bell. They already had their biggest hit or one of them. So it affected them, but differently,

then somebody who's just starting momentum and then everyone's like, hey, no more. Can we chill out a bit? Chill out for a bit. How did you navigate that year of a year and a half of just like we're going to put the brakes on your career for you? It honestly, I think again, the nature of being a Brit based in London

and already having done Zooms before Zoom was the thing. It was kind of a, I actually, initially it was a little depressing as it was for all of us, but I sort of saw it as an opportunity. And I love that I don't love Zoom. I don't love not being with people, but I love the sort of time constraint it puts on things

and the ability it gives to jump back in and refine and tweak, which is something I've always done with songs. I love to Zoom. Yeah, dude. I'm so sad that people are kind of like totally away from it because the ability to mute, think of your idea, refine it. That's it. And then unmute and be like, I've got an idea versus when you're in the room and you're

like, I got an idea. You sing it. And you're like, ah, that wasn't totally. But then you have to refine it in your head. Then you're like, one more try. And like, yeah, we moved on. Totally. But had you had the time that you would have had on Zoom, it wouldn't.

Exactly that. I mean, we even sometimes do that in sessions now. Like people will just go off into different rooms. We'll create the Zoom mute in real life. and just like do that. But I think it was, it was also just an opportunity for me to just be working with friends

and we would just start ideas, just having fun. Like, I worked a lot with my friend Pablo over that period, and we would just send each other ideas over text, and he would send me voice notes. I'd turn them into little ideas,

and that was how one of the songs of that pandemic came about just from a text. it felt like a super creative time and there were no rules in the best way. Yeah. I mean, it's not like you didn't work at all. You had obviously Little Mix, Vance, shout out, Brad. You know, Rita or Ella, shout out of Ella. So many of these people that you're still releases are coming,

but the sort of singles, you know, there's this weight between sort of commercial success. For sure. but I think that was because there wasn't much the artists could do. So, like, the first, the first, we had this, I had this song with Rita Orr that I wrote with Lewis Capaldi

and it was due to come out the day of, the day that London ended up being sort of shut down and they had to cancel everything. And then for the next year, basically everything that was meant to happen sort of got watered down. But the songs that actually ended up being more commercially successful

in the years following the pandemic were all written then in that period so it's like it was a sort of knuckle down I remember we worked with Ellie Willis

maybe it was on this she's the one who wrote September like do you remember oh wow she did the friends theme she passed away a few years ago she's in the songwriter Hall of Fame and I think it was on this podcast

but she said something about the idea of you don't want to ask people about the hits when they came out that's kind of interesting but it's way more interesting to know what happened before the hits because that's when they wrote the hits and if you have these what seems like lulls and discographies

that's when that artist is redefining themselves that's when that writer is learning a new skill when that producer is changing their dog It's all those things that really change their narrative is what happens in those moments. So your process had to change because sometimes somebody might text you an idea in a way that wouldn't have maybe have happened previous. Exactly. I mean, I think I felt to an extent like this is almost playing into my hands as well. I've been working like this for a while.

now everyone's working like this let's go it was sort of a bit of that as well but the motto is the one of those songs that everybody wishes they wrote and that's like

it's hard to understand you know it's hard to replicate that it's hard to go and say like okay well I'm going to go in and today I'm going to write that song but that feels like the kind of song that you know it changes

is Ava gives her depth and her discography. It makes and keeps TES irrelevant in a way where, like, as a DJ who's 50 years old, it's hard to, you know, there are two of them that are at the very top, and they always get a look, but they don't always have a hit. And the two things that are most valuable in the music business are when you break an artist or you reinvigorate a career, you know? everyone wants to know who did either of those things. And the motto is that kind of times two.

Oh, thank you. You know? I mean, yeah, that's the perfect example of a lockdown idea, just trying to be as dumb and as fun as possible. And that is an example of one of the voice notes that I think Pablo has sent me like a da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And that is the song. That is literally the, you know, that's how it starts.

I turned that into a weird little loop and then sort of changed some of the notes. And we just wrote over that. And then we were never, I feel like in hindsight, we were never thinking, who's this going to be for? What is it? It was just a let's make the most fun thing we can. Yeah, the other note for the writers that I work with when you're in a session and they're like, well, who's looking right now?

I mean, I feel like I keep saying this where the person who's going to cut this song is still in high school has never recorded anything before and their friends haven't said like, hey, you should do music yet. The person who's going to cut it may not even know they want to do music yet.

That song could come out. Might not even be born yet. May not be born yet. I mean, quite literally, there are no rules to it. And it doesn't mean you shouldn't necessarily aim for stuff because that may inspire some things. Yeah. But in the end, you know, it's having fun and doing something.

When you said it's dumb, it's like, it appears to not be overthought. Yeah, right. In that way, maybe, in that way, it may seem dumb, but it seems brilliant in a sense that it didn't follow the rules of, you know, especially for when they're looking for Ava singles right now, you know, it's not what you think of as an Ava single. For sure.

I think it's treading that line of being the dumbest thing possible in the smartest way possible. Yeah. And something that is almost impossible not to sing back as soon as you've heard it, but carries enough of a meaning to be able to yell it in a club. It's that sweet spot of dumb and smart. It's hard. It's everyone who want, you know, when you talk to your uncle and they're like, how hard is it to write a pop song? Yeah.

Because if you've done your job well, it should seem like it always existed. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's hard to do. You manage to balance some of these artists where you have, you know, the UK Staples, the JLSs of the world, you know, the little mixes of the world. But you still are while mixing in, and you know, West Life, but then you're, you're mixing it with Griff and you're mixing in with some of these younger artists as you go. Is that by design or is it sort of whatever your schedule shows up, you just go in and do? No, I think, I mean, absolutely, I wouldn't say by design,

but something that I've always loved, you know, I feel like I'm absolutely. I'm absolutely, I'm obsessed with pitch writing because it's so scientific and that sort of plays into the way my brain works but I think I and maybe it's because I you know came up under Fraser but I've always always the thing that has been the most fulfilling on a personal level is building a world with an artist and helping that that come to life and so the artist like Griff I mean that that was the first time that I really experienced that of being sort of fully well-phing welcomed in to a thing and helping to build it and just becoming really close mates with someone and seeing them through ups and downs and writing about their life as we were living it was

that was the best and to be involved with an artist like that at a time where it was super exciting for her and we wrote this song and then she won a Brit and we were watching it at the Brit suddenly and it feels like when you're coming up with friends like that That is the best thing in the world. I can't top that. Doing another song on Tiesta, this time with Tate McCray, also a good moment for Tate, who had needed something to keep her in the conversation. She has obviously a huge release right now.

Getting to work with Amy Allen and working on that kind of experience, did it change how you were thinking of collaborating with, presumably a lot of the songs that you're writing are with Brits while you're in the UK but it feels like as you have this you start getting to pick who your co-writers are from a bigger pond

is that how that happens I guess so yeah I mean I've always tried to be to be working internationally whether it's in the UK or coming here I mean I've always done zooms and I always will be, I find myself at the studio at like half 11 at night because it's, it's, the time difference is mad. But I think, yeah, I think it's just a case of the more you do, the more people you meet.

And I, you know, working with Ryan and Amy for the first time was a real privilege. And I've been fans of theirs for so long. And I think, but there's something that happens when you reach those, you know, that was a goal for me to work with both of them. And when you get there and you see it and you're in the room with them and we've written a bunch more stuff together, it's this bizarre moment of like

this is the most insane scenario, but also we're all just doing the same thing and it's the same thing that it was when I was in my band with the dudes in the garage. Like it's, with the best idea wins, let's make the most exciting thing. And when you're sort of looking at it from a distance, it can feel like the most intimidating,

these guys are going to absolutely walk all over me. This is going to be the most horrific session, but it's the most welcoming environment. I almost feel like the further I've gone, the more welcoming it gets and the easier it is to collaborate.

Do you think that when you're in that room, the tendency is to look at Ryan or Amy and be like, is this idea good? Is this good enough for you? And what you realizes that the good writers are the ones that look at the other writers in the room and say

is this good. Totally. I think that's why Ryan is still relevant and so he's always going to be relevant because he's like he's like I want to be cool. I want to see what the next kid's doing. Do you feel like you've now gotten to a point, have you been in those sessions yet

where you know you're the elder statesman already where they're like is this good and you're like you tell me bro. Yeah. No 100% that's one of my favorite feelings is like being introduced to something new or sort of feeling

like there's a new energy that I haven't had the chance to tap into yet and that that is, I think we all need to be doing that all the time to stay relevant that's just the way it works. You end up writing, you know, obviously the Tom Grendon album was working on that for Remind Me a great song by the way, but

you know, working on that album with one of the more hyped up artists in the UK, feels like that's a departure sonically, obviously, from the Tiesta records and the Ava record. Yeah. When you get songs that come out that sound

so different, like, to me, that's, that's, as somebody who wants to be, who enjoys being lost, you know, it's like that, that has to feel, I shouldn't put that on you, but how does it field to have that kind of song come out. I mean, that's, that's, that was always the, the goal, really, to be able to do a bit of everything.

I'm just a fan of music in general. And the, the weird thing is that, you know, coming from the background that we've talked about, if anything, the Tiesta stuff or the dancier stuff is the more unnatural route. It's not, I didn't grow up listening to that music and I don't listen to that music. And so I think often there's a value into jumping into genres that you're not comfortable in because you bring a perspective that is unusual. Or producing a whole couple of Tiesto singles in Pro Tools is probably like a crazy idea to most people. But for whatever reason, it's really worked.

And I think some of the sonics that come from that probably just haven't been around in, like a lot of people ask me about the real. on the vocal in the motto and it's devurb, which is like the stock reverb in protels and that. And that is just like just a small example of a thing that maybe just wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for a dude who grew up playing metal trying to make dance music. It's that thing. Going into a room, part of talking to that artist is finding out, what have they released so far? How do we write something that they have, they have, they haven't written yet.

How do you give them a new perspective? How do you do all that? And for producers, when everyone's using Ableton, then use Studio One or whatever it is now. Use Pro Tools. Learn the other one. Learn something else because it will affect how you produce.

And even if it's a 1% difference, when you're talking about millions of producers or thousands of producers. If that gives you some unique quality to it, I mean, Benny still produces on Pro Tools, like, you know, a lot of people, anybody who came up

before Ableton uses that, or, you know, a lot of people still use logic, you know, sure Julian still use logic, you know, it's like... It's just about we're all looking for a point of difference, really, at the end of the day, and I think, you know, I'll make ideas in Ableton, I still

want to learn, and I'm, I'm I'm pushing myself to learn other things and just be creative. But I think... You can use that... Sorry. No, no, it's... You can use that if you do that one part on Ableton, then you fly it back in. It's like you can...

It's just another synth. It's another instrument. It doesn't necessarily have to be the dog. I'm not knocking Ableton. Ableton's great. I'm just saying you don't have to do the same thing that your peers are using. If they're all using this and you go and you're like, you know what?

I'm going to go record everything on an A track. It'll be weird. But if you do it well, nobody else is doing it. I think, and also just to go back to what we said earlier, I think ever since I became obsessed with the lyric and that being the king of a song, the melody and lyric, the vocal production has always been, it will always be the most important part.

And I think that, you know, ProTal's sort of naturally felt like the home for that at the time. Kylie in particular, the bottom-pottom, I'd like you to put me down as a co-writer. Okay, sure. There's space. That would mean a lot. We were listening to it earlier before you showed up,

and it's just like... At 8.30 in the morning, oh, God. Man, you have kids? No. Okay, so when you have kids, 8.30 is lunchtime. Okay, okay. All right? Okay, I get it.

So, but I guess fair enough. Listening to Kylie at lunchtime is also funny. But again, the reinvigorating thing, it becomes real. You know, it's a there are a lot of, she's released a lot of music that people don't talk about. It's not a knock on her. Every artist has that, you know? But you get to a point where it's like her biggest songs are now 20 years old.

And you release a song that people use in clubs. It's crazy. And actually, this sounds so bad. but I think we all build up a level of of skepticism or whatever it is and sometimes when a song is about to come out you can feel it for whatever reason in the industry and the conversations you're having

like oh this thing is coming and with Padam there was none of that literally zero and even the day before it came out I was just sort of shrugging like I guess we'll see what this does I wasn't really sure

but that is the perfect example of like a cult I could feel it culturally, almost instantly. The day it came out, it was like Twitter was lighting up. Yeah, she's back. Yeah, it was so crazy to see that. It's probably the most I've ever felt it with a song. To see that social reaction, it was crazy.

Having a Calvin Harris, you know, Ellie Goulding record, tempo's different than the other tempos. Do you feel any vulnerability when you are like, okay, this song's going to be, 15 BPM faster than every other song that's out right now. We were definitely scared of it. Yeah. Before, again, before it came out, it was like,

this is going to work or it won't. And when you say we, are you at this point friends with Calvin? We were like, I mean, we were talking. I wouldn't, like, this is the first time I'd ever collaborated with him. And I did it with Burns and Pablo again. And they're really good mates, Burns and Calvin.

Shout out Burns. Yeah, I love that guy. But he actually, But the demo was slower. So it's Calvin who made the call to speed it up. And I remember the first time I heard his sped up version that I was just laughing. And I think my initial scared response was,

this is crazy, this isn't going to work. And then I realized I was laughing. And that's just, again, going back to the whole dumb, hilarious thing. It's just a point of interest. and it sounds so different. So then I started to get excited. But it was definitely in the hands of the guards that one. We weren't sure.

Working with Mimi, Maniskin, Gail, chain smokers, but more importantly, Shenzia, these people who are like Rosalind, you know, these are the, what I think you get off and pulled in when you start working with the Tiestos and Calvin's and those people is that then there's

all the phone calls and Kylie's that the phone calls are hard to turn down like for sure you're going to get the call to go in with Madonna you know those kinds of things you're like oh it's Madonna it's you know whoever it is at that level

that is like legacy artists in in you know I'm not I guess I'm not that worried about Madonna listening to this. But like the sort of relevance in that, you know, gets, is this battle

of like, who do you aim for? Do you aim for the people with the high floor and low ceiling? Or do you aim for the people with, you know, a lower floor with a higher ceiling? Yeah. And I know I asked earlier, but do you get excited when these songs get released?

Are you still feeling connected to that the chase of breaking these kinds of artists? Yeah, 100%. I think if anything, it's more exciting. I mean, it's like

just buying a ticket. You have to show up, buy a ticket, see what happens. It's like the lottery, literally. And it's so crazy and humbling to hear you read those artists out because they all feel so different. And it's almost like a...

I forget. basically, I think. I forget that there's so much different music and different levels of artists. Some are legacy artists like you say and some are brand new and I think it's nice to hear it back in a list because that is the mix

of everyone is what I've always wanted to do. But I wouldn't say I get more excited. I don't know if you're asking if I get more excited about like a bigger artist inverted comments. I don't think I do. I think I get, if anything, a bit more apprehensive and a bit more like

you know don't want to be the guy that flops for this thing I think maybe it comes from a place where a lot of writers ask how to get into bigger rooms and I think that that's the dumbest thing someone can say. I totally agree you are in the back there are hits that were written in

worse rooms than whatever room you're in today whatever room you can think of there are worse rooms that have had hits. So if you don't bring the skill set and your co-writers aren't that's fine but you have to sort of your crew becomes the becomes the hit writers your crew you should think of it as like oh no we're going to go do this together and become the big room yeah which brings me to the next segment which is five for five I'm going to list five things and we're going to start with Tom men oh he's he is

My brother, he is one of the most amazing songwriters we have in the UK and the bravest man I've ever met. It's a long story. Yeah. He certainly is and he's just a good person. I can't root for someone more than that. Let's go with Pro Tools. Pro Tools. Love to hate it.

Hate to love it. It's just been there. from the beginning. And I've been unfaithful at times, but she's always there. And like I said, it's a point of difference, and it just feels like home to me.

Let's go with drums. Drums. It's got to be a double kick, whatever happens. Pergatory shifts. Still in the back of my mind. I mean, I just got a kick. back in the studio in London and it's like Christmas.

I will always love drums. I'm so bad now, but it's, I think, a basis for any producer. You know, we have obviously a studio with drums. Do you choose the studio of drums or is like when you're doing a session? Like, it's just such a waste of time. You don't want me to be playing drums in our session. Let's go with, let's go Tiesta. He is a machine.

I mean, I've met him a couple of times. and I feel like I'm talking to a robot, the most loving beast. He's just, that guy works so hard, and I really respect the fact that he is, he will do the thing we talked about of looking down and welcoming new talent and fresh ideas. And he's just as much of an A&R as his A&R team.

I'm going to add an extra one, but let's go. with your parents first. I'm just eternally grateful for that. That they never made me feel any pressure to do anything other than the thing I love and the thing that felt natural. And I genuinely think they always believed

that I could do it, or at least they made me feel like I could, and that is everything. And then last, Peter Pan. Oh, I never want to grow up. I think Is that true? Partly maybe I don't know

I never actually thought about that I mean there's some I think there is a tie there between at least sonically always trying to stay young and trying to be trying to work with the kid

and get the new ideas from the younger people in the room I think we all have to have an element of Peter Pan about us in this game. I'm adding a seventh because I can. Your fiancé.

Because by the time this comes out, she'll be your wife. That's true. That's true, Andrea. The love of my life. I mean, she's just been there through thick and thin and she's been here with me on this trip. And I just, she has to put up with some bad versions of me.

Like, what are those? Just like before a session, like stressed out, like trying to like run from a meeting to a, a session and then trying to finish stuff in the evenings and just basically having no time to be with her but her still being the most supportive and amazing person. I'm just eternally grateful for that. Well, thank you for doing this. I get the feeling that this is part one of, you know. Oh, thank you, mate. I mean, it's so surreal to be here. I love it.

Well, no, I really appreciate it because I think in the Peter Pan syndrome part of things, like you said, in the infinite game of the music industry where the industry will win. In the end, all of us will come and go.

And if you play with the same players that you came up with for 30 years, eventually, you know, you've played yourself out of the game. And it's so important to be surrounded by the best of what's coming up and what's already there. I mean, you know, it's just so, it's inspiring to talk to people who are, who are now making the name that they always saw. And you've obviously had a name now for a few years.

but it's just an exciting thing to watch your arc and I'm excited for us to get to work today. Oh yeah, let's go. Thank you, mate. That means the world. And I think of you as the perfect example of someone who is never aging creatively. You're still here.

Or physically. I mean, I look really good too. You just don't see that. All right, well, thanks again. Thank you, brother. This episode is produced by Joe London. mega house management and myself. See you all next week.

I'm Ross Golan signing off.