And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 19: Ali Tamposi

Episode Date: June 5, 2017

This songwriter from West Palm Beach, Florida is quite familiar with the roller coaster of the music business. She has seen both the apex of success and experienced the struggles of rock bottom. There is no question she is an exceptional songwriter, a creator of the highest caliber. With notable cuts like Kelly Clarkson's smash "Stronger (What Doesn't Kill You)," DJ Snake's "Let Me Love You feat. Justin Bieber," and Kygo's "It Ain't Me fest. Selena Gomez," which also happens to currently be the #2 song on Top 40 radio, she is clearly a master of her craft. And The Writer Is...Ali Tamposi!  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write songs.

write the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who is nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is, or go to our website www.com. Oh, and if you enjoy this podcast, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. We really appreciate that effort. This week's episode is with Ali Tamposi. She has the number two song on Top 40 Radio. It's Kai Goes It Ain't Me featuring Selena Gomez.

So we're really proud of her because when you hear this story, you're going to hear her roller coaster ride from being at literally the top, going literally to the bottom, and then literally back up to the top. Needless to say, this is going to be a very entertaining episode. But before we get to that, I wanted to talk about song math. Song math is essentially modern song composition. I mean, it hasn't changed all that much since Franz Schubert in the early 1820s.

But without going to a history lesson of song composition and sonata form, the gist of it is that songs need to be somewhat symmetrical. There needs to be some sort of arc. I think there are three arcs. There's a melodic arc, a rhythmic arc, and a lyric arc. So when you talk about a melodic arc, as my friend Kobe Calais one said, you start low and you end high. It's about framing titles.

It's about framing all lyrics. Is there an antagonist as a listener? Is there a protagonist as a listener? The juice of it is that this is a very complicated conversation that we're not going to have in this intro. But we will get to process and composition at a later point on a separate kind of episode. Let's not worry about that now.

In the meantime, here is, Anne the Writer is featuring Allie Tamposi. Welcome to And the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Since she entered the game, today's guest has written three of the biggest songs in music. Her discography includes some of the greatest singers of our generation, Christina Aguilera, Kelly Clarkson, and Demi Lovato, some of the biggest DJs of our generation, DJ Snake, Kigo, and Cedric Jervais, and some of the biggest pop stars of our generation, including Justin Bieber, Selena Gomez, and my favorite, herself.

From West Palm Beach, Florida This writer is only beginning her journey As she's knocking on the door Of her third number one pop record Kaigo's It A Me featuring Selena Gomez The writer is My 2012 Aspen writing camp buddy Allie Tamposi

I feel like the mariachi band should come in now It's like Is that a mariachi band? It's awesome So you're still singing demos for still singing demos for some sidecash. You know, you got to do what you got to do.

Do people ask you to like, yo, can you sing demos? Like, when did that stop? What was the moment where that stopped? Well, I don't feel like I actually don't feel like I started becoming a good singer until like the last, until I really discovered how to work with Autotune. And then, like, I feel like

I'm the most confident Autotune singer there is. Without it, I mean, it's a different story. It's a different person. It's a different It's crazy. It's so vulnerable to sing without auto tune in an era where you're used to listening to auto tune. Yeah. I think people don't realize that, like, it's not, as Adele's an amazing singer, but for people

to assume that none of that's auto-corrected in any way, it's just like, that's... I won't even touch mic without the tune on full. And without the CLA, I mean, I need the whole thing. And it's just like, that's the most stimulating part for me is jumping on the mic and freestyling melodies and kind of catching that flow and feeling like good about myself. You record vocals at home? No, I don't. I should.

I mean, I went to audio engineering school, so I kind of feel like I wasted that degree. Where did you go to school? S.A.E. I actually went to school with, I was in the same grade as the Monsters and Strangers. Oh, cool. And the, yeah, in Miami, we didn't really know each other. And there's only like 30 people per grade. And I ended up, like, flash forward three years later.

in a session with them and I'm like you guys look familiar like yeah we started talking there from Miami and somehow SAE popped up yeah we're we have the same teachers everything is really crazy and they're they're utilizing their degree

and like some people I can't even touch it. No but you just said you know with the CLA at least you know your CLA being the Chryslerd Algae plugin you know like I know what works I know what works I can't touch a computer

got up it asked me to put it on a loop and it's like the session crashes. It's so bad. It's embarrassing. I try and kind of leave that detail out that I actually was an engineer at some point. I don't know. I think I cheated my way through that. I really did.

I mean, I was too, yeah, I was 17. You're from West Palm Beach, right? Delray Beach, West Palm Beach, bounced around a bit. Well, how did you, before you're 17, are you singing in bands or musical theater? Are you singing? I mean, where do you start? Because you're obviously a singer. Right.

You know, are your parents singers? My dad can play the piano pretty well. My mom is not. But at 14, I signed a production deal with Marty Sintron, who was in the band No Mercy. I think he still is in that. The song, Where do you go, my lovely? Wow. So he signed me, developed me.

We did a demo. and then he played it for Frank Farian who is the voice behind Millie Vanilli. He owned a record label through Sony. How did they find you? Through my sister-in-law who owns a modeling agency in Miami. And so she knew Marty and brought me in. And that's actually, so I owe a lot of this to Marianne,

my sister-in-law who just like was facilitating. Wow. And yeah. And so it's... So you've older siblings. Yep. I have two older brothers. and a younger sister and brother.

And she introduces you to them, and she's in Miami. Yep. And she's, you know, calls him and says, you got to hear my little sister. She's only 14, but she's incredible. Yeah, it was perfect timing. He was looking for something to do because his band was kind of slowing down.

And I learned, yeah, I learned a lot from him. He taught me how to play the guitar. And then he brought me to his label, which Frank Ferry and owned. and Frank Farian signed me to a record deal, which is crazy. So I signed a record deal. We made a whole album. I was actually working with Stiles, who I don't think he goes by Stiles anymore.

But I just ran into him at J. Cash's house 10 years later. He engineers and helps produce with like the weekend and billions. What's his name, Danny D. Stiles? I'll show you a picture later, but you definitely know him. I ran into him. We made a whole album together, did a music video. Were you writing or were they giving you songs to? I was writing.

You're writing in 14 years old? At this point I was 16. I signed the demo deal at 14. Marty wrote my songs then. And then 16 started getting into that, the writing world. It was like a pop rock record, like all on analog. It was really cool. I made some money then.

Were those songs good? Pretty good. Like ston down down. I think that was a sample, actually. I have a music video for it. It's like, God. Can you look it up? Is it on YouTube?

No, but I'll, that one's going away. That one's saying somewhere in some vault. But yeah, and so then after about a year and a half, that started to kind of fizzle out. Why? It's just there wasn't the funding. There wasn't, you know, they didn't have the right. Was it a record deal? Did he have a record deal signed to a major?

It was Sony, but it was like Sony Germany or something. So there was just a complete disconnect. And then so my dad was like, all right, you got to go to school. So SAE looks like it was only a year and a half in Miami. It looked like the easiest thing to get through, which was so not the easiest thing. Did you go to high school during all this? I went to, I actually did. freshman year at school of the arts and then I homeschooled.

Okay. So you got your GED before you went and did. Interesting. Yeah. And then so I'm in SAE at 17, like have no idea. What does S.E stand for? School of audio engineering. Okay.

Seems logical. I mean, I was not prepared for that. The amount of science and math and, I mean, these kids have been working on these, on programs, pro tools, reason, logic. music cue bass and we were I was in there cutting tape and like the final was we had to mix um mic and mix live drums I don't know how I got through that I know I had I had my guys though I'd like hang out with after school to like let me like they'd tutor me and I was so stressed out that was the most stressed out I've ever been because if I just was at the very end and I knew like

if you fail your final you fail and you've got to go back for another six months. So I was, yeah, I made it through. Let's just say that. I can't even go back there. It's just a heavy place. When you finish that program and you are sitting there, you're like, I got the certificate, but I don't have any idea how to do any of it. I went straight back into the studio. I have a music degree and I'm like, I can't read notation really for shit. I mean, I can kind of read vocal stuff, but like going through the, like a music degree and being like, I mean, I guess I guess I can't Tennessee. Where did you go?

USC. Okay. But it was a lot of classical kids. I remember like side story and I know this isn't my story that's yours, but I had a music theory teacher who used to talk shit on pop music all the time. And she was a flautist and she played in the orchestra and I was like, you're in a, you're in a 250 year old cover band. Nobody's going to see you play. They're going to see Mozart. I didn't know that's what it's called for a flute player. Yeah, it was just a weird thing. I just remember saying, I don't know why you're criticizing pop music,

which just shows that you don't listen to pop music. And because you play flute in an orchestra, it doesn't make you a better musician. It makes you a better flautist. Right. But you're in a cover band. Like nobody's going to see, you're going to see Mozart. You're going to see Gershwin.

You're not going to see the second chair of floutists. Like, and if, you know, versus trying to be the composer yourself, it's a, whatever, that's a whole other thing. It sounds like that's a deeper situation. It seems like she's a bit bitter. Right, exactly. A bitter floutist. But at that point when you're saying, okay, so you get your certificate, what do you do with your... Well, I went right after that, I had like another month or so left with my record deal.

And I was going back in, like, just give it like another couple rounds in the studio. And I happened to run into... So the studio was above this tone. Mowing company. This like, I mean, everybody gets towed in Miami. It's Tremont towing and then it was just a random studio. Could you hear like the garages and all these people? Not too bad.

They put some money into it so it was pretty insulated. But I'm outside the studio and I was kind of like, I was the cocky little shit at 17, 18 and I was off like just coming from the beach going in there and I ran into, there was these two guys, and it happened to be Jim Johnson and Rocco from Rebel Rock. They were at Rebel Rock at that point. I don't know if they're still affiliated, but

and Jim, I think the first glance, he's a little bit intimidating. I don't know if you met him. Explain who Jim Johnson. Okay, so Jim Johnson to date, he produced Lollipop, Beyonce's

Sweet Dreams. God, he did a trick Daddy, Trina, Pretty Ricky. A-SAP Rocky. Huge producer. Yeah, incredible. So Rocco and Jim came up to me. They're like, hey, you know, what's going on? What are you up to? You get in your car, too? And I was like, ugh. It's like, no, I'm going to the studio.

And Rocco's like, yo, this is Jim Johnson. He's a big producer. I'm like, everybody's a producer. Like, come on. And he's like, no, no, no, no, man. He's a Trina, Trick Daddy, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, all right. And they're like, here's my car. like, you know, get in touch if you've, you know, if you're interested in meeting up or whatever. So I go up to the studio and I'm just like chilling, waiting around and I Google Rebel Rock and I see like the discog and I'm like, oh shit. Like, this is real. Yeah, that's real. Yeah, I got to get the fuck out of this joint.

And so I called like a few hours later and Rocco picked up and I'm like, hey, I met you guys at the towing place. So they were getting towed? They weren't there for the studio. No. So just coincidence You're going to the studio And they're two huge Like music people

And they're sitting there waiting for their car And you're sitting there thinking like Oh these guys can't even get into the studio Above the entire place And they're calling themselves producers Oh my God It's so crazy to think about Because it's just like that day

That time it's a trip So yeah So I went over to their studio Which was like a game changer It was like this South Beach or South Beach Studios on the beach and I walk in and like there's they're making

music like there's some music coming out of here like it just has that feel there's plaques all over the walls and I go in and sat down and it was kind of like an interview process I started playing the piano like because I just like really got good at like these five chord progressions and different ways

to play that's all I can play but I just nailed them. Still all you need. Right. That floutest would be I'm really impressed with this conversation now. Yeah, yeah, you're right, though. Yeah, so I played and at that time, Jim had been working with, like, RICO Love, and he just had his crew. It was so cool looking back at it because he had, like, a live bassist there.

And he had, you know, Frankie, who was the guitarist, and they're all, it was set up like a band, and he was on the MPC. And so yeah, so I played some stuff saying a few things. And like within a few months I was assigned to a production deal with him. And I got in, I mean, I learned so much. He brought me into, I mean, it was a rookie. And he brought me into like some big writing camps with like David Hodges, David Ryan Harris, Steve McEwen, Simon Wilcox.

And this is like, I mean, 1819 area. Yeah. So I happened to one day get, I haven't, Jim asked me if I wanted to do a session with him and Rico. And so I came in with one of those progressions and we ended up writing a song called Save the Hero, which was supposed to be my first single. But then randomly Jim called me a few days after we wrote it. And he's like, you know, if for some reason, like, you know, a bigger artist wants this record, you know, like, yeah, would you be into it? And I was like, I mean, not unless it's like Mariah Carey or fucking Beyonce, like, I mean, anyone else I'd be like, I mean, I want to do it. Like, this is my thing.

What is even being a songwriter really? Like, you're not famous. So. And all you wanted to do at that point was be famous? No, I wanted to like, I just, there was this next tier of like performing and like that just there wasn't. To me, I was still so premature into. I didn't catch those, like, highs that I catch now in the, or the last five years in the studio when I was 18. It was just kind of like, okay, cool.

This is the first step to, like, getting out there and, like, doing my thing. I mean, I was in a fucking really heavy-duty relationship for a really long time at that point. And this was, like, my ticket out of Miami. And that relationship? Yeah. You wanted out of the relationship? Well, what was the relationship? I started dating my first boyfriend that we were 14, 15.

He was a few years older. I was in that for a really long time, and it was really, really heavy. Yeah. Why? It was just really dysfunctional. He came from a dysfunctional family, and we're talking, like, as soon as I got my license, I was chasing him around, like, looking from at different strip clubs, different. Like, it was just really intense.

But at that point, it just, that was normal to me, you know, like consistent, like compulsive lying. And, and then he got really sick towards the end, like five or six years in. He was diagnosed with cancer. So I'm young and I'm dealing with, like, going and working with gym and then spending six hours a day in the hospital with him, you know, going through chemotherapy and all that. Did that, was that, do that normalize how crazy the career is because you're doing something so crazy like being in a hospital? Or was it just like the extremes are so heavy that it just, they both were weighing on? Yeah, the extremes were really heavy. And it was this, it was a shitty, I was in a really, uh, was he still difficult to be with when he was sick?

Yeah, because for some reason, like right before he was diagnosed, he was I knew that he had been toying with the idea of of breaking up and he had met somebody and I know that that was like it was I can't necessarily say he was there was cheating I know there was cheating yeah there was there was a lot of that going on but there was this one

particular girl that I knew that could potentially pull him away from me so when he got sick it was like okay he needs me now so this is my time to like really make it work but in his first cycle of chemotherapy he was you know before he lost his hair he was still going out and i could feel like this is really fucked up but i still stuck with him because he you know he's he doesn't have um you know he just doesn't have a good uh support system and so i was there and the second that he um went it took about three or four months before he was cured once he started to get his health back

that at that point I just made the decision to get out and move to L.A. So when... And was that sort of... So that's all one fell swoop. You have this song that... And Jim's like, you know, you're... You said if it's Beyonce,

then you'll get it, you know, knock yourself out. And then... And he's sick and you're trying to get out of this relationship. Right. I mean, the weight of that's that one song even, And if that's either you're single or somebody else's, all that's going to be your ticket out. Well, you would have thought, but it, I mean, there was a lot of talk about, so Beyonce ended up cutting the record because at that time Jim and Rico had been working with her doing like sweet dreams and all those big records. And how old were you at that point?

I was 18, 19 around there. Probably 19 then, yeah. And so. How was your ego at 18 years old dealing with all this where you're, you're now recording, right? writing songs for Beyonce. It was cut in half, I think. It was like, you know, I had a lot of guilt because I was trying to like enjoy it,

but I needed to be there with him. And I really felt like, you know, I just, if he, if I just couldn't, the thought of him sitting there for so long alone just killed me. So I was juggling. It was a really tough time for me. I mean, but it, at that point,

point, this song was, you know, there was talks that the song was going to be a single for Beyonce. And then it ended up only being a bonus track, which has songwriters the only because you might as well not even be on the record. Yeah, I mean, they're hard to even find like when you get that. It's very hard to find it. Meanwhile, the, the, the, the, the sink or swim part of when someone says, it's going to be a single, it's going to be a single. It ends up on a, on, as a bonus track. It's like that happens more often. And then you think because the writer, the artist has, they're going to write eight songs. And the last two slots are really for the singles.

Right. And if you're the third, then they make you the bonus track. Right. And if you're the second, you're the second single. Right. You know, it's like, it's that different of either you're going to make enough money for a long time or you're going to end up. And I had false. For the deluxe album.

Right. You know. Exactly. At Target. And that's what I was doing. but I didn't really know how it worked so I had this false hope that there's still a chance that it could come out

you know so I packed up and moved to L.A. And thought that based off of like that song I would no problem be able to get a publishing deal in meetings and sessions. I mean here I am. I think those show an insane amount of potential if you're somebody in Miami who's writing a song at 18 years old

that ends up on a 19 or so that ends up on a Beyonce record. That's... I don't know if it really helped because, I mean, at that point, I didn't really... I was working with a manager, Maryland, but within like a year into living in L.A.,

we parted ways. She was in Miami. So I didn't really... You know, Jim and I decided that we would stop working together. But I... The only connections that I really had were the connections with...

From the writing camp that he put on with... David Ryan Harris and Steve McEwen. So David Ryan Harris and I became really close. And I think that even though Jim and I like had kind of agreed that like we'd go our separate ways, I kind of still rode off of like, you know, I just, I had to get him with David Ryan Harris. So I had to do what I had to do.

What did David Ryan Harris do? David Ryan Harris was John Mayer's guitar player and wrote stuff with him. him and he's written a bunch of one of the most incredible writers I would love to go back in and work with him he is an artist project as well the most incredible just soul just would break your heart

his voice and so we spent like a few months just pushing and making a demo for myself and there was one stuff you moved here to be an artist at this point and are you are you at this point are you doing a long distance relationship Sort of.

And yeah, so that was, yeah, I mean, I needed, it was so scary. Like, I've moved in with my stepmom's cousin who had only met once. And, I mean, it was a nice situation, but it, you know, I was just, this is my first time, like, being away. And I don't know anyone. And, yeah, it was really tough. It was the, oh, God, yeah, I was. kind of just commuting. I rented a car commuting back and forth from David Ryan Harris's house.

And we made some shit songs. And then we made one that is called Lonely Won't Come Around that ended up on Crystal Power Sox's album in Crystal Power Sox. I think like won first or second place in American Idol. So it was a big deal. She was actually really rad. She's like dreadlocks and cool chick from like I don't know where but somewhere. from like the boondocks.

But I mean at that point a cut is a cut and that's what people are buying. Still people are buying albums or singles or anything. So, you know, I'm sure it pops up in some different places, you know. I love that tune. And yeah, so from that point, actually Jim Johnson started to get kind of excited. I sent him that song. But it was still like there was still, you know, there was just. He had so much shit going on with B-O-B and, like, you know, just he was in Miami and it just

was too tough. So I was still working with my manager, Marilyn. And by chance, she set me up on a meeting with Tom Faye, who managed me for about four years. And he was at Pulse then. I took a meeting with him and he listened to all my demos. And that's kind of where I made the shift. from aspiring artist to aspiring songwriter. You told me that it makes more sense.

Like my voice was just, well, I didn't have the thing. Like it just, I had, yeah, I wasn't, I didn't have my identity sorted out. I was just kind of just scrambled. I couldn't really write from a personal perspective. And why? I don't know. You'd think, it wasn't until a lot later that I was able to do that.

Honestly, like, it had really, really wasn't until like the past two years that I've been able to tap into that place once I got sober. Well, we haven't really reached that point yet. So Tom Faye managed me. He put me in a session with his dude radio and Jorgon Ellison. At this point, I don't have a publishing deal. I'm pretty like strapped for cash. Like my dad, like it's looking.

I mean, I thought about getting like extra jobs. So I just didn't know what to do. When you were saying, you were starting to say your dad, it was. Is your dad cutting you off at that point? Well, yeah. I mean, it was like I'd been out in L.A. for about a year and a half. And like, and, you know, but I was willing to do whatever I had to do. Did they understand?

I don't know what your family situation is. Did they understand what you were doing? Oh, yeah. I had the most supportive parents. And my mom, you know, was the reason why she, you know, commuted me back and forth to Miami to work with Marty Centrone from No Mercy, like after school every day, just doing it. And thank God for that because I wanted to play soccer. and go surf with my friends and smoke pot and shit and like did not want to do anything related to music

but she pushed me in a positive way and yeah so um when when i you start working with yurgen or the first time you meet yurgan and and you know just some background he wrote you drive me crazy and sometimes a moment like this like some pretty massive songs so you get in with someone like that that's other than jim johnson he probably has you know the big big thing you know the big his credits, I assume, you know? I was so intimidated, but I, luckily, you know, his weakness was my strong point, which was lyrics. And I had just, prior to that session, I had just written so much shit, just like concepts

and the lyrics and stories and all this stuff. And I walk in and we write a song and it comes out really quickly. I can't even remember the song, but he asked me at that point, point he's like you know I'd love for you to come out to Sweden and write with me for you know a month or so and I'm like that'd be great but like I don't I'm like I'm like I'm like do you have a publisher and I'm like no he's like great I'll sign you to my publishing deal blah blah blah we signed a publishing deal and I was out in Sweden and that's when it started wow yeah at that point did you split off from Jim Johnson like officially is that was that an amicable

separation Yeah, we're still great. I mean, he taught me a lot, a lot. I mean, he really took a chance with me and wanted to, you know, wanted to potentially push me into doing what B-O-B did, but I just wasn't ready. And I have so much respect for him and that whole crew. But, but yeah, it was good. I mean, I was ready to just kind of do my own thing.

Were you able to separate at that point with your ex? Is that when that, like, officially separates? or is that still being dragged out? Let's see. It was, yeah, it was still. Still being dragged out. Yeah. It was still being dragged out.

I remember, yeah. I was in Sweden and I knew there was, I mean, it just got even more shady. The further you get, though, I imagine that, you know, it's probably, you know, your family, your friends and this guy must be like, here you are in, Los Angeles, not that Miami's a small town, but you're in Los Angeles, seems like you're killing it. You have songs out with Beyonce, even if they're on, you know, some deluxe. And you're about to go to Sweden because you're signing a publishing deal with one of the biggest songwriters. Were people like in awe? Or was it sort of like now? It hadn't happened yet. It was, it wasn't until stronger. So I, I mean, we were talking like seven years with this one

person and like and I just couldn't imagine my life without him as dysfunctional as it was and I didn't really have many friends in L.A. at all like it was yeah a year and a half in I was just still trying to find my way and so um when I was in Sweden fuck man we we were grinding that was it was in the winter time and it was tough and it's black I think people don't realize in Sweden during the winter there is no sun. There's sun maybe between 11.30 a.m. and 1.45 p.m. during the height of winter. Yeah. And there's like a significant age difference between Jorgon and I. And so I didn't really, I mean, I was just kind of out there by myself.

And I was staying down. Was that weird? No, because, I mean, he was like a dad in a way. You know, I stayed with him and his family and his wife and his daughter, who I loved and who I love. but I'm still like you know my only like stability was stability quote unquote

was Ryan back home and and I just thought that that was you know enough for me to whatever it was it was enough for me to like not feel alone you know to have someone to call who's in the industry you mean

or no no no Ryan yeah just Ryan was a boyfriend so he was like the reason why I stayed. Oh, I see. I see. Okay. Yeah, just because it felt like I had a purpose, you know?

I was somebody to someone. Right. And yeah, so we come back from Sweden and Jorgon comes to L.A. Now, at this point, this is about a month after, I'm about 20 years old at this point, almost 21, still with Ryan, until. it was like Fourth of July weekend my mom was out visiting me I didn't go back to Florida that weekend

because I had some work to do my mom came out and that was the weekend that Ryan met his girlfriend that he's with now so that and that was the night I got a call that he had been seen

that there was something like I should be worried about and I saw some pictures were posted so this on July 5th, I woke up with all this shit. And then I had to prepare for a session in Long Beach with

David Gamson and Jorgon Ellison. I'm like all out of sorts. Like, I couldn't even drive to the session. I'm like, I was so close to canceling that session. You've no idea. It's in Long Beach. Like, I mean, that alone is enough to cancel a session. It's so funny. It's in his backhouse. Yes. I'm like, what the fuck? So my mom, luckily, my mom happened to be there for sure.

And my mom was like, we got to do this, you know, because she's not letting me cancel. So she drove me to Long Beach. We're listening, we're talking, and she's like, you know, Allie, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I was like, the passenger seat curled over like, just kill me then leave me here. I can't take it. And so we pull up at the session and like David Gamsson comes out with like coconuts and shit. Like like have some coconut water and the dogs there. It was like, okay.

So we sit down, we're going through concepts. Yorgon's tough. Like, Yorgon, when he'll drill and drill and drill and you better come with the concept. So we're going through shit. And I'm like, I don't know. What doesn't believe he makes stronger is like a bit gimmicky. I know Kanye said it, but like, and I know it's, you know, the famous Nietzsche quote.

But I was just like, I had to get that session wrapped up. I was like, we got to get, I was like, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? That's it, bingo. So, yeah, we wrote that tune. Who sings that melody? That's actually Jorgon. And then I came in with a,

Nani, Nani, 10, fire. I'm going to love and I We fought over that melody big time We had to take a walk around the block We had to literally We had to take a cool off Because luckily David Gamson had my back He's like, that's great

I love that We got to keep that The me, myself and I Did you know that it was a great song Or was it like at this point You've been writing for a while And you've done a lot of songs You're not even in the mindset

Right now it's distracting you from what's going on in your personal life. Right. Well, no, because we had a sketch demo, and I laid it down, and I was like, yeah, it's cool. David Gampson had a demo singer come in. This girl, Chanel, can sing her ass off, man. And David Gampson produced the song up, had her voice on it,

and I got it sent to me, and I was like, oh, shit. It's awesome. This is awesome. Like, this feels great. and then nothing really kind of panned out I played it for a few I'm not going to like lay anybody out there on the line

but I did play it for a few A&Rs and they passed on it for Leona Lewis and and Jeff Aldridge Jim Valu Tatto and Jeff Aldridge Jeff Aldridge is with RCA at the time and I think right? Yeah he was yeah

and Jim Vali Tatto is my publisher at Sony because I did the junction deal, whatever. And so Jim Valy Tatto, I mean,'s back in Sweden, we get a call from Jeff Aldrich and Jim Valuato. Kelly Clarkson loves a record. She's going to cut it. We're going to get it to Greg Kirsten. He's

going to produce it. And we changed the verse a couple of times and it ended up going back to the original verse. Kelly tweaked a few lyrics on the verses. Didn't take any publishing is a legend to me, like just the fucking coolest artist in the game.

and I was able to go in and watch her record it with Greg Kirsten. So you were there during that? That's when I started to get my groove back. I wish all artists saw how Kelly works. Because because she's such a good writer when she writes, that she accepts when she's the songwriter and when she's the artist cutting an outside song. And she treats songwriters with such immense respect.

She's awesome, man. I mean, I actually got to know her. I mean, I'd met her a few times, but I really got to know her a couple months ago in Nashville. And, yeah, she's just, she's really intelligent. She has no filter and she's just the most down to earth. I mean, I'd love to hang out with her more. And, like, you know, we have a similar perspective on life and religion and politics. She's just a bad ass, man.

She's, it's, I mean, it's really nice to see. Like, I'd love to like, you know, that song obviously means the world to me. But now that I really know her, I'm going to really try and nail some more on her record. How does that song go from, you know, even Greg Kerson, she cuts it. You know, you were told Beyonce's song was going to be a single, it ends up as a deluxe. This one, you hear how good she sounds on this song. You know, I mean, how confident were you at that time when you heard her singing, oh, this is a shoe in?

Or were you sitting there being skeptical? I mean, how does this become? It's the biggest song on all radio formats in the U.S. It's all over commercials. It just becomes this cash machine. Right. Well, yeah, I mean, there wasn't, when she was recording it, I was like, yeah, we got this. No problem.

I mean, I had never been through, like, you know, the trials and tribulations of, like, getting a song out and making sure it's a single because now I know that things can change on the fly. So there was actually another, we were pretty sure it was going to be first single, but something changed. And Esther Dean, Brett James, and Brian Kennedy wrote Mr. No-It-All.

And so that kind of, that hit hard. Because when Mr. No-it-all came out, I just, I was like, I don't know. I had this idea about the first single. The first single is what you want, ultimately, right? And then... As long as the first single does pretty well and it opens the door for this is the next project,

you actually kind of want the second one. Right. Every time, but you can't convince any songwriter in the world that that's the case. No, no. Well, especially at that point. I mean, I was pretty devastated. And like, yeah, it was a nail biter.

And at that point, like, Spotify started to come up. So it hadn't really been... It was just the beginning, it felt like, of Spotify. and so the people were still buying buying off iTunes at that point so I just made that cut that cut off point and are you feeling pressure to repeat

at that point I mean how soon after when Stronger is huge are you feeling like oh I got to have a follow up to this immediately and that's where I mean I rode that high I rode that high until I hit wrong bottom. It's weird. There's like this victory lap syndrome that I kind of think all songwriters go through

when they have their first hit where it's everyone starts calling you all the great artists, great labels, great writers, producers, they're all calling you to congratulate you. They all want you in the room and it's so easy to just schedule yourself to, you know, to lose your mind. And it's sometimes impossible to The celebrating is nonstop Because you're just like dinners and dinners And drinks and parties And everybody's like

They want you there You suddenly become You know You're not wanting to go in this session Because you're in the car crying And then you show up you write The biggest song in the world

And all of a sudden What happens? I wasn't equipped I definitely, I didn't really have the relationships I have now with other writers and producers. And, I mean, I was going into rooms, but I was just still testing the water. So I didn't know who I liked working with because I was only working with Jorgon for a really long time. So we tried to maintain consistency, but it's tough when he's going back and forth from Sweden. I'm getting pulled.

I'm starting to see this whole other side of this industry that's like, The, you know, the fast and furious life of like, you know, fame and recognition. And I'm, you know, I get hooked on a date, blind. I get set up on a blind date from Mike Elizondo to meet James Valentine, who I dated for a couple years. So it's just like, it's where I'm in the fast lane. Like, it's going. And it's. And, um.

Are you writing? Oh, yeah. I was writing. I definitely was. But I just didn't have, I just didn't know. Like, I just didn't, nothing was really sticking. I mean, there was. Like, I got a bunch of album cuts. Like, I did, there was incredible things that happened. You end up on X Factor, right?

I end up on X Factor. I have a, I mean, L.A. Reed signed me to a big song deal there. And I wrote with Sierra. There was a lot of great things. L.A. Reed introduced me to Sireira. Simon and Simon and I click. Like we're, yeah. And we, I learned a lot from Simon and I was fascinated by him. I mean, he's just, he's brilliant and he's fucking cool.

And he like, party. And he's like, and I just, I hung around that whole scene for like four or five months. He wanted me to judge the X Factor. So I started going through the rounds of auditions with these, with Fox producers and, I mean, I got really close. It was between me and Paulina Rubio. And thank God that did not happen. I was not ready for that.

That was like the beginning of the end of my party era. What's your partying era? What do you mean by that? Well, it's just really started with like the late nights. It was booze. It was like, you know, rosé and Adderall and shit here and there. It wasn't really. I didn't get heavy into drugs.

When did you know you had a problem? When I couldn't write a song without a good buzz for about six months. Yeah. So we're talking like waking up and yeah, I mean the thermos was filled with some rosé. So stronger happens in 2012 or so. And then when does this period of parting stop? When does X factor stop? When you start realizing?

2014, 15. So those like two, three years you're kind of still riding the high and away from stronger. Right. And when I started working on the ex, I didn't get the position obviously as a judge, but Simon hired me as his, like, the consultant for his acts. So I was kind of getting like the special treatment, which I got to like hang out in his dressing room and I had his full attention all the time. And like, so we were kind of, and it was, I got to drink wine and champagne in his dressing

room. But then, I mean, that, that's like four months of like me. I wasn't writing at all. I'm just like focused on, you know, building, like making sure that Simon's groups win and like the choosing the best songs. And it was fun. Julian Benetta and John Ryan and like a bunch of my homies were there. And it was just a big fucking party.

I mean, we were all. going for it. Like just the wine. I mean, the wine and the coffee cups. I mean, I hope that we were all going for it. I think we were all going for it. I was definitely going for it. But it was, there was a lot of stress in that like fuck man and and and somebody say to you like hey, you're a songwriter you should do that or does somebody say you you're drinking too much or was it a personal thing of I kind of think I want to

go back into sitting in a booth. and writing. Yeah, it was that. And I think that straight after the X Factor is when I realized that there's something wrong because I was starting to crave the buzz, you know. Right. And about a month after X Factor, we started working on Alex and Sierra's album. And, yeah, I found myself slipping into the same routine of like just drinking and drinking.

and I felt like the king of the world though when I was doing it. It was just like the Adderall. There was like a weird chemical balance between the Adderall and the rosé that just like was like fucking heroin to me. I feel like whatever heroin is. But like just this like complete bliss of like nirvana. And I mean that would only, that feeling only lasts for like a few hours and then it gets pretty dark. But yeah. And so I mean it just you can't sustain.

with that. I just couldn't sustain. So how did you, when you went, you start going to rehab or did you just quit? I just quit. I hired a sober coach to come stay with me for about two weeks. And yeah, I mean, I just started going into the meetings. And I mean, I'd watch Jay Cash's journey. I lived with Jay Cash for a few months and his wife, Jamie Zellick, was a really, is a really good friend of mine. And yeah, they really, they really helped me get through it and get sober. And I mean, I watched, I was like, you know, at the tail end of my, my era with that shit. And I was watching J. Cash just fly, you know, like, he's, he's happy and he's consistently writing

great songs. And he's, like, on top. And he doesn't have to, and I'm there and like, make, like, like mixing a drink in the kitchen. Like, you know, all right, there's, there's something. And without any cuts, without any cuts, you know, the phone isn't ringing for a couple months. And then, I mean, I was, I dabbled in, like, consulting for Columbia records for a year and a half. Learned a lot there. But once I got sober, had the sober coach come in was when my life completely changed. And right after that's right when you, is that when the Cedric Jervais thing had, like. Prior, that was before I got sober.

So right after that. Wow. So when you listen to, the Sedger-Dervase one wasn't really a hit, but it was a single way it features you. Right. Was that? I don't even listen to it. Because it pulls you back to that moment. Yeah.

It was a dark place that time. But how do you then, from being sober, which has now been a few years, right? Yeah. Almost two years. Did you immediately meet your co-writers on, you know, Brian Lee and Andrew Watt? Four months into the, you know, because I had to like get my bearings back on. Did you have a new manager, new public? Not yet.

Not yet. But I had, I mean, I had to relearn how to write a song without. That was, that was my biggest motivation. I mean, how long can you go into a session like and, and like discreetly be drunk? I mean, I was getting away with it. 90% of the time I was buzzed. So like, that's, I didn't know myself sober. I had no fucking clue.

I was going into business meetings, killing it, closing deals, making money like that, but just waking up in the morning and forgetting what the fuck happened. Because it's all a party. It's all a party. You're just trying to keep that going on. Yeah, I was having a fucking great time. I mean, and everybody was loving me and my energy and like I just, I felt on the top of the world. And so now, like, yeah, I mean, I just had to get my bearings back on.

and I met Andrew Watt into like four months into that into being sober and through that I had an amazing friend Stephen Rable, sober now and just starting to really get his career and he's taking off and Bonnie McKee going to meetings and just we had

a great support system that really encouraged me like reading about Sia and her journey it's just like obviously there's something to this thing like you know. We've noticed that we've done just over a dozen interviews and I think we've figured something like 70, 80% of the guests

that we've had are sober. It can't be a coincidence that people who are addicted or have an addictive personality also are creative, are addicted to working. Right. Yes. And they're emotional. A lot of them are probably,

were suppressing emotion and then this is how they let it out once they're finally sober. I mean, I know you can relate to this. Absolutely. I mean, I feel like I've kind of shifted my addiction into music, which is I'm trying to balance out now. But there's something, I finally get that high off of like flowing off, you know, on the mic or just catching onto a good lyric. And when I met Andrew Watt and Brian Lee, the first session we did, we wrote Let Me Love You. That's the first session? Yep, the first.

You've got to be kidding me. I'm not kidding, man. And that feeling was just like. Did you know it was a hit then? It felt like it. Yeah, right? I mean, I know there was a bidding war for that song. Right.

I mean, it went on for like about close to a year until it was, until it actually came out. But yeah, we, we. When did Justin Bieber here? it after it was produced out or did he hear it after it was produced yeah and Andrew Watt like he Andrew Watt like is the main like he facilitated that whole yeah what a hustler yeah he's a different breed dude I think he's gonna run this fucking industry at some point he almost is so I feel like when and he had a relationship with Justin Justin heard it cut it and and but throughout that time like Brian and Andrew and I just we had magic there and how soon after

of that did you write It Ain't Me? We wrote It Ain't Me about a six months after it came after Let Me Love You came out. So you guys become kind of a writing team for Almost two years. Yeah

And we I mean we were We went to London, worked on Rita ORA, we'd been I mean there's just It just happens like we write a song and if it felt like something Like it would

You know would get cut Are you guys considered a writing team now? I mean, I'm kind of hard not to. Yeah, but we, you know, we're all kind of in different, like, when we're all in the same city, there's nothing, there's, like, those are the most enjoyable sessions for me. Even like, even if we, like, are all in different places mentally, like, it's just, there's a love there that, like, you can't mess with. And we all bring, like, those sessions are, you know, we all challenge each other in ways. but it's when we catch that rhythm when we're all like contributing lyrics

and having ideas and we feel it and we're just, there's nothing like that. So I owe a lot of like gaining that high back to those guys because they push me and they really built my confidence back up and I really needed it. When your first session with that, I mean that Melodies has a moment that's, sorry, going back to Let Me Love You know,

it's the the na-na-na part where you end on the dissonance after the first round which allows you to resolve it and all this other stuff is that I mean using words like nah-na-na is a choice sticking with that melody is a choice I know Brian's like a virtuosic melody writer yeah he went for that let's pull it down on the second one I mean he kind of he was pushing that um him andrew kind of constructed that chorus melody thing and then i jumped into the booth and and kind of was freestyling the the lyrics and and going for it so crazy it was just same thing with it a me is that sort of the same process you guys have yeah i mean it it ain't me happens so fast that like it it blows my

mine. I mean, we were just, we were in a session with Kygo and we kind of started something else that wasn't too good. And then Brian picked up the guitar and started playing something and it was going off of this melody. Andrew came in at that point, started tweaking it. We started going and then the melodies, it was just like we were on that chorus and Brian and I were kind of charging at that melody and Andrew came in and tweaked. It was just like, it was just magic. That song needed to come out of all of us. Like it relates. to all of us in so many different ways that it's like all of our story

in one song and it was like just this beautiful combination of like Fleetwood Mac with like just I don't know just with just honesty and like just that song was yeah that was a big moment for us and I

and I remember like when Kigo came in the room and listened to it for the first time right after we had written it and like just watched his eyes kind of like It just lit up. Yeah, I was just... Is it hard to...

You guys are all in very different places when it comes to celebrating. The three of you are so, so different. Right. And not to get into too much of that, but is it hard to be... Is it hard the way you guys are? Because, I mean, the dynamic of the three of you

probably is what makes you guys very special. But you're talking about sort of extremes in personalities. Right. I mean, you would think, but I've just kind of been able to manage it. And they have respect for me, especially in the writing process. Like, for the most part, I mean, we're all, like, we're not getting fucked up in the studio. Obviously, I'm not, but they're not drinking around.

And if we go out to dinner, we go, you know, we have a, you know, we'll have a, it's, like, feels like a family thing. And then when I'll hang out for as long as I can. I mean, there's only, like, only so much I can do. Like, I'm not, I mean, that, I've had such an incredible run being sober, and my life is completely changed. I'm, like, the happiest I've ever been. So I, you know, I'm not, I can't be pulled back into that world. I mean, and so I kind of go home and I'm, yeah, I mean, this has been the best, best year of my life.

Honestly, I have a fucking wonderful, incredible boyfriend. right now that just like help me connect to other human beings sober and like find my truth and like just just opens up my mind to so many different things in the world and just you know he's so I'm just like in a really solid place and just like I know we could go into talking about things like religion and spirituality and the planet and politics because I know you have opinions with all these things um but I could really easily. get myself into like a black hole We'll have to do a follow-up

Right But before we And I'm gonna do like I'm gonna just list five things We don't have been Are we already at the time? No we're not We have no time

We can keep going if you want But let's just gonna list Everybody's too bad at this point We do this segment Hey this is about you Oh thank you No this was really good This is like

Really necessary release for me I've been spoken about this And like all these things In a long time This is important for a number of reasons for your story, but we'll get to that still in one second. I'm going to list five things. You're just going to name the first thing that comes off the top of your head. It's a segment we don't have any title for.

It's called five things that I'm going to just list, and you're going to name a bunch of shit that comes to your head. Okay. You're going to listen. Magnificent. Simon Cowell. Gangster. The co-producers of this podcast, you are manager. is David and Jeremy.

Oh, fucking, like, hold on. Sorry, David Silverstein and Jeremy Levin. My heroes. My saviors. I love that. Brian Lee. Oh. The, I'd say the god of like, the god of the rebels.

Let's do that. Oh, I like that. Andrew Watt. Ooh. Man. My best friend. My best friend, the fucking pioneer. I like that.

I think if people don't know Andrew Watt is, they should... Pioneer. They should figure out, first of all, Brian Lee and Andrew. Andrew Watt is a legend. Brian Lee is the god of the rebels. Yeah, I love that. Andrew Watt is such an important personality that is just starting in the music music. Oh, yeah, he's going to run it.

Yeah, that's really impressive. He's genius, genius, genius. But I was going to say, you know, your story is so inspiring in the music industry because there are people who were in your position who climbed the top of the mountain, came back down, and that was the end. And they weren't able to figure it out. That is the story. That is the story of so many artists, so many writers, so many producers.

there's so few people who went, climbed a mountain, came back down, and then climbed a bigger mountain. I mean, you are running on, this is a massive run for you because you are opening up honestly, not just musically, by doing things like this, you know, you're giving back, you're acknowledging all the people who are involved in your career. And when you talk about the beginning of this conversation, you're saying how you have this ego and you walk up to these two huge producers in the street of Miami and be like, yeah, I'm going in the studio versus now where you're like, I owe this to, you know, David and

Jeremy are my heroes and these guys are my saviors. And with, you know, Cash and Jamie that they're like, all these wonderful people that you've, that are embracing your journey because you're a really positive influence. to a lot of people here. It's a lot. Yeah, I'm super grateful to be in this place right now. So it's been a journey, for sure.

But it feels worth it. Well, thank you for doing this. We'll do a follow-up in, you know, two years from now. Perfect. You know, it's seven more songs out there. Oh, yeah, 100%. All right.

Thank you so much. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is, if you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silverstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White.

Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and The Writer is. When I met Bon Jovi, they had a very dynamic, legendary manager, Doc McGee. And so somehow, you know, I got a chance to go and write with them. They had had kind of a not-so successful second record, 7,800 Fahrenheit or something like that. And I went out to New Jersey and rent a car because I was living in New York. And we went to Richie's parents' house, which is where they were co-riding in the basement. And I got their little house, and it was kind of like at the end of this little cul-de-sac. And behind them was marshes.

And at the very, like, far away were the refineries, the oil refineries. Like it was Emerald City over there. Can you imagine how toxic this place is? Yeah. You know? And so I walk in, I make a left. I look to my left as a room, and that's Richie's room. Poster of Kiss, Farah Fawcett in the red bathing suit, you know, a typical, you know, high school boys' room.

And then you're right there in the kitchen, and John was on the wall phone, like this avocado green wall phone. And he's kind of like, you know, kind of waves to me. and Richie, who's very, very nice and, you know, very, very accommodating. Well, why don't you just come downstairs? And, you know, I'll set you up, you know, for our session. And so, you know, I went down there, and it was the laundry room with like, you know, it was literally the laundry room with some transoms, like muddy transoms around the side. And then an old for Micah table that must have been retired from the kitchen.

and this little keyboard that was kind of teetering on it, some amps buzzing. And finally, finally, John came down. He was obviously doing big business on the phone, whatever. And I had a title in my back pocket. So we started fooling around, you know, writing this and that and the other thing. And I said, okay, I guess I better pull out the title. The title was, you give love a bad name. Because I love, you know, I haven't talked about my mentor, Bob Crew,

but he taught me about writing songs that have a lot of inter-rhyming and irony. And once you have a title that tells it all, the song just spills out of it, like a magic spell. And so John instantly responded, and he had had a song on his previous record called Shot Through the Heart. So he doesn't give up on his good material either. And so, you know, he just instantly said, shot through the heart. and you're to blame. Darling, you give love a bad name and the rest is history.

Until next time, this is Ross Golan.