And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 191: Shania Twain

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

Today’s guest is a global phenomenon, whose songs, killer fashion sense, and stage presence empower female songwriters and artists everywhere. Having sold more than 100 million albums worldwide, this superstar remains the top-selling female country artist of all time. But what the stat doesn’t accurately show is that 100 million albums sold makes her one of the top-selling songwriters of all time. Her brilliance shines on stage, on red carpets, and in session rooms — she is the definition of well-rounded. From way up North, this Canadian epitomized rock stardom, and did so with grace. And The Writer Is…Shania Twain! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Chart metric is proud to sponsor the upcoming. season of and The Writer is.

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They have an incredible campus. They have common areas with a live stage and they host open mics, but most importantly, they have 15 recording studios. with a world-class one-year intensive high-level music program founded by Stargate, our good friends and super producers who did sounds like firework and what's my name, diamonds, irreplaceable, think of Lamp as a nine-month high-level songwriting camp featuring world-class mentors that they've had, you know, Betty Blanco, Circuit, Emily Warren, Neo, Diplo, Stargate themselves, Jimmy Naves, Kenny Beetz, they've had presidents of publishing companies, major ANR executives, They've had super producer managers like Jay Brown, who has Rihanna.

They have top-rated mixing engineers, vocal producers, lawyers, business managers, all kinds of business professionals that help you with a Wednesday, Thursday workshop that they're so known for. They've now been going on their fourth year. So if you want to learn more information about LAMPMUIC.com, that's lampmusic.com. Thank you for being fans of this podcast, LAMP, because we are fans of yours. Welcome to End the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's icon is a global phenomenon. Having sold more than 100 million albums worldwide, this superstar remains the top-selling female country artists of all time. But the thing that stat doesn't accurately show is that 100 million albums sold makes her one of the top-selling songwriters of all time, regardless of gender. Her brilliance on a mic or on a stage or with fashion or on camera, is what it is because of her genius with a pen. From the great country to the north,

this Canadian epitomizes rock stardom while being a mom. Ladies and gentlemen, this is no rock star. That's a superhero. And the writer is Shania Twain. What an introduction. Thank you. I mean, it's, look, it's an interesting thing when, you know, We get to interview a lot of people, but your life is so well documented.

One thing that I think people overlook in music is when they look at female artists, the assumption is so often that they haven't earned their success and that it's given to them. and the exact opposite is true. And it sort of reminds me of, you know, Mariah just got inducted into the Songwriter Hall of Fame. And it feels like there's, you know, it's exciting because what you've done as a songwriter, on top of everything else, is really what is, is why all the other things come together. And, you know, I watch your documentary.

I'm very familiar with your work because we listen to it every morning when we're having breakfast because we listen to 90s country. That's like our jam. But like, you know, as a songwriter, I know you were influenced by a number of people, you know, Dolly and whatnot. But, you know, and Pat Benatar and whatnot. What to you, when you were younger, you said your parents were big music fans, but there's a difference between being a fan and there's a difference between being a creator.

What's the moment when you said, I'm going to write a song? Well, Dolly Parton is who I credit as my first songwriting teacher. I was always very moved and related very closely and well to the song code of many colors. I thought she was so good at explaining how I felt I related to the song. As a poor kid, we couldn't afford, you know,

new winter clothes every year because we were always growing, so we had to go to the Salvation Army, and I was always wearing like a secondhand coat that never quite fit me properly, but I was so happy to get this coat and be warm going to school every day, even though I was ashamed or felt made to feel ashamed by the other kids who had new coats, you know.

So it was always this contradiction between how I really felt about the coat and the value of it and what other people thought of my coat and the value of it. And Dolly depicts that so well through songwriting. It's just a short little song. but she told my whole childhood story in that one song. And so that was when I thought, that's it. I got to, I want to write stories. I want to write my heart in a song.

Yeah, you listen to Dolly and Loretta, and you listen to these women who were so fearless in talking about what it's like to be a human on the planet, let alone being a female on the planet. And it explains a lot with the, um, is almost the confidence that you were willing to go as a lyricist. Did you ever feel, you know, when you're first starting to write songs,

when did you start realizing that playing songs that your parents liked, assuming that they, you were saying, you know, that they, they were in the country music as well. But what you do is sort of this new sound. when did your parents start to realize that you sounded different than the classics? And did they approve of that? I mean, when I was a kid, country music was very, was much more diverse. And so I was listening.

In Canada, the country music incorporated a lot of folk music. So I could be listening to Willan Jennings and Dolly Parton in the same hour that I was listening to, Gordon Lightfoot and Murray, Canadian artists like that, Jim Crochet. Yeah. So, you know, you would hear Chris Bistofferson. And I'm not really sure if my sense of what was traditional was the same as when I came into the industry as a recording artist. Right.

Because you had songs like Johnny Paycheck singing, take this job and shove it. So I'm thinking, well, by the time I'm now an adult. and I'm writing, you know, mature adult country songs. To me, that's not bold. That's just, that was from my childhood. So I thought putting my own personality into the song and my sense of humor and my bold conversational kind of lyrics were, I didn't think I was doing anything that might be considered non-traditional.

The sound was, had more of a rock edge to it. And that was from my influence, playing bars. when it went from, you know, the top 40 country to top 40 rock. And I had to play the bars. I mean, that was my, those were my gigs. So by the time I'm 16, they were only hiring pop, you know, top 40 rock fans. Yeah, it's, it's, even if you were to, uh, I still think record labels now would look at the lyrics that you were writing in those first, those first albums that you released and would

say that those are too controversial. you know it's like i think that that's what makes it so exciting to go back and listen to and you're like man this is just so brave at that time um and and and now if a girl at that time had presented a song take this job and shove it even at the time so for a man at the time it was still bold at the time i think but it was you know it would have been more bold for a woman to do it but now uh even and i don't know I think, and I think we've regressed a little bit. Like, I think now it would take a very brave girl to be bold like that. Like, I almost feel like there's no room for the bold Chenaya lyrics anymore.

You know, it's like the young women that are coming out. I don't know if they would feel safe being that bold. I don't know. Yeah, it's almost like if they do, they end up getting released in a way that's reactionary, where labels would release it, but they wouldn't necessarily. try to push those things. They would let it go and stream. They would put it on this kind of playlist.

It'd be on that thing. It's not like they can't exist. It's that the machine is, uh, tends to push those voices out because they're too afraid to, you know, rock the country. It's a puzzle to me. I don't really understand why. There's so many in, in so many girls and women that they're just there mentally. They're like, that's the way.

I would say things, you know, they would relate to that. Yeah, I don't really get it. But, yeah, certainly I'm very outspoken in my music and in real life. I'm just who I am. And I enjoy doing it with a sense of humor. When you went through, you know, you went through the tragedy with losing your parents and you became, in a way, the mother of your siblings. going through the process of living life on your living life on your own in that way,

how much did your siblings want to be part of your music career? How much did they come along with on the ride? I know you were, the fact that you were able to do it is mind boggling because most people just, they have more of a support system. but you brought the system that you were supporting with you. How does that even work? How do you get from, you know, even in the documentary goes, it jumps to then you get your first record deal.

You do this, you do some of these live performances, but then you get a record deal. There's such a gap there and so much work that you can't really describe how much work that is. What was that to be, being, forced into being in a way a mother of your siblings and then getting record deal. How were you able to navigate that? When my parents died, I put my any music career aspirations to the side because it was such

a shock to all of us as a family. The kids were 13 and 14 years old. and my priority was keep the family together. I was just so lucky to get an actual job because it was a job. It wasn't like a career thing, but it was a job singing at a resort, doing covers and singing music

that was completely out of my comfort zone. I'd never wore in high heels before. I never wore heavy sequined dresses and stage cues. I was a freestyle singer-songwriter that was, you know, in bars doing top 40 covers, sure, but I was still focusing a lot on my writing. I had time. But this job that I got, it was really well-paid.

It was a good-paying job, stable. I could get a mortgage, so I could buy a house, put a roof over-the-headed kids. Because I had to move towns, rent out the family home, and the job gave me stability. So in these three years, I'm not pursuing my career at all. I'm just paying bills and, you know, working at a resort that's going to get me nowhere. But that show got me my, that was my showcase to get my record deal. Who came to see you? So his name is Richard Frank.

And he flew out, he flies up from Nashville because what, Mary, your manager tells them. I'm like, hey, contact them. He's like, no, you've got to see this woman. So they actually go through the effort in Nashville to fly up to Canada, go through customs. They go to this random resort and they see this woman doing covers and that's how they meet you? She sent Dick, my demos, my songwriting demos. Oh, so he heard your, it wasn't that they saw the performer and then found out you were a songwriter. They heard the songs.

They didn't see me at all. Got it. So she sent my songwriting demos. And those were songs. So I was always writing songs. This is what I'm saying. So I'm accumulating songwriting over all my life from the age of 10 years old. And the job at the resort gave me the opportunity access to musicians where we could go into the studio.

Like I'm just like basement studio and record these demos after the shows. And I put all these songs together. She sent it off. and he was blown away by the voice, loved my song writing, came to Canada up north, and then saw the showcase. So he saw me in a very

kind of glamorous environment that might have been more impressive than seeing me in a local bar or something like that. So maybe that was part of it, but that was the only gig I had at the time. So it was the only way I could showcase. Yeah, it's just fascinating

that you get like, you see somebody in a place where you feel like they belong in a bigger place. That's when you sign them. It's when you hear a song, this song should be heard by more people. You see a singer and this person should be singing in front of more people. So when you see someone, you have lights on them already, you know, I'm sure that that doesn't hurt.

When they give you the record deal, you move, I assume, with your siblings, everyone moves to Nashville, right? So when my, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, So when I move, when I move my family from Timmons to the resort where I've got this gig now, that's when they move. They live with me for three years in that time. I only go for my record deal when the kids are already starting to move out. Got it.

Okay. Because I wait these three years because I can't lead the kids. I mean, so by the time I had my first. first hit, I'm 30. That's amazing. So, like, most of my writers are under 20 and, or under 30. And they're, um, so often they're like, oh, I missed my shot. And I didn't write my first hit.

So I was, I think my first number one songs, I'm 34 years old, you know? Like, I had written, I was in bands. I wrote a lot of songs. I had cuts. But there's a difference between like cuts and a hit. And even so, it's like, just hang in there and do just be great be the best version of yourself and you might just have a hit when you're in your 30s and then it's like you know you look back you know it's 30 seems so young

you know it's like that's amazing um when the label says okay we're going to do this deal and you've been writing your whole career and they say your songwriting isn't all the way there so we're going to bring in songs outside songs. This is one of the most complicated things for new signings. Did you have a publisher at that time? Or did you go just a record deal? Did you have a publisher in the process?

So the reason that I had the contact with Dick was because Mary was, she was, she's a songwriter too, so she was doing publishing already in Nashville. Got it. So I was still very much a free agent in that way. and I imagine it was to their advantage for me to write with their writers so that I would be part of their, their whole publishing house system where they have their own pool of writers and their own, their own in-house setup. So I understood that and that it was more of a monopoly thing among the community and that I wouldn't be by using my own songs and my own publishing. I wouldn't be contributing to that pool.

And then I was remaining even more of an outsider. I was too independent. And I mean, I didn't, I understood that that's when I started to understand. It was actually a game to this. I'm like, oh, no. I just have to get my head around how that there's an actual system that I thought. I thought it was just all about creativity and whoever made the best song win, you know? Yeah, can you imagine?

Did you find that listening to the songs that were submitted to you to sing, did you find that to be part of the education that created the next batch of songs for yourself? Were there moments of this is what I want to do or this is what I don't want to do? What did you learn from hearing demos from the best singers in Nashville? No, what I learned about listening to the demos, about the songs that I was given. Don't forget, I'm not given the best. Nashville song.

I'm not given the prize guts, right? I'm a newbie. I'm a startup. Did you know that at the time? Yeah. Could you tell? Well, I could tell by listening to the songs, first of all. I knew that I felt I was writing stronger stuff.

I mean, many of the songs on The Woman and Me are songs that I gave mutt that he saw. Like, so I don't know if it's that the, A&R didn't see it or it just, it just didn't benefit everybody enough for me to be the writer of all this stuff. But they recognize later that, and I think that everyone's looking out for their own, everyone else, everyone's looking out for their own ass. So they're like, these guys are sitting there and really guys, I imagine very few of the A&R people were women that you had. So I think that there isn't this like mentorship. and I think there's this sort of, it really is a system that they just try to slot you in and kind of cross their fingers that it works.

I don't know that they, that inability to be open-minded to be like, hey, no, this woman's been writing since she's 10 and you get the record deal and you're now in your 20s. Like, you have more experience writing than somebody who's 25 who just graduated three years ago. Like at that point you had 15 years. It just was a bunch of people that assumed that you were, a singer out of timmins who then goes and moves and sings at a resort and they probably just didn't realize that a bunch of the songs I imagine like you were saying that you brought to mutt how many of those how like when was um when was who's bet of your boots been under is that is that

a is was that written during you know uh during the self-titled album or was were these songs written after the the first album Was it every booths been under was a pre-signed. That was... Did you play that for the label? I probably did. They heard... I don't remember what they heard.

I'd have to... It's like such a crazy truth. You know, it's like you hear about actors who turn down famous roles, you know? You know, where they turn... And it's like, it's the same thing. It's like, A&R people hear these songs and like, ah, that's no good. And then it becomes a hit and they're like, man, why don't you have more like that? Or, you know, can you give me more?

And I give you that 10 years ago. You just didn't hear it. I think in fairness to Ann Ar, when you have a new person that's already new in town anyway, I'm not even, I'm Canadian. I'm like totally new to the country. I'm like more like my teachers are Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson. I'm not at all culturally up to date with what country was currently when I got to Nashville. So it's like Dolly Parton, stilettos, and what the label's like, well, you know, we would like you to be more country.

But I'm like, well, what's more country? Like, Dolly Parton's my mentor. Like, how does it get more country than Dolly Parton? I was very confused. I was like, I don't know. I was just like, can I just be myself? I mean, you do that grind, getting through those first albums and getting through those first releases. where you're trying to assimilate in a way.

And you can't. It's your fingerprint is still like so, it's so identifiably you as your career goes on. And, you know, that, as long as you can push through and get to that point where, you know, the star is aligned, as long as you stay true to yourself. But it's amazing how that's, that's why we know you because of the fact that you have the background of these superhero country artists and folk singers,

and you're from Canada, all that stuff mixed together makes a really unique singer-songwriter. In fairness to them, that's why I'm saying. In fairness to them, I think it was just too different. It was very unique. And maybe they were just shy about investing so much time and energy in a new female artist. There were female artists lining up at the door. You know, so why would we take someone that's so different? Maybe we can just like mold through a little bit.

And again, fairness to them, I recognize that there was a formula in all of the songs they were giving me. My songwriting had no formula. I wasn't thinking about a formula. I didn't know anything about a formula. I didn't know what, you know, there was no formula to writing the songs that I wrote. So that even was different to them. We're like, well, these songs don't meet the criteria of what like a radio formula song would be. You need to go and learn from our writers what that formula is, which I was never interested in it.

And it's a good thing I wasn't because I would have made very, very different records after that, even as a writer. So there was a lot of learning curves for me, but I was patient about it. And I never planned on quitting. I wasn't discouraged. I was, but there were a lot of learning curves. I had to adjust. And I'll never forget, you know, when we're doing this triple play thing with Toby Keith, you know, he was on it.

And he's got a smash hit. And he says, you know, look, my wife's going to be traveling with us. And she, give her your jeans. And, you know, let us help you be more. like maybe what might help your image more in this in country. And so I gave her my jeans and she starched my jeans. So she put this really lovely crease down the middle and starched my jeans. And I said, Toby, I said, that's the sweetest thing.

And I know your heart's in the right place. But Barton doesn't starch her jeans. Like she's my idol. Right. And so like, and it surprised me that. it wouldn't be relatable. Maybe they thought Dolly Parton was old-fashioned, and I don't know.

But I was so stuck on what influenced me that I just couldn't, they couldn't convert me. But anyway, so when I put out, they tried to convert me, but then when I put the video out for what made you say that, that was my true stamp on how I saw or how I would visualize,

how I had visualized what my country would look like. Yeah. which was ripped jeans and, you know, a whole other thing. And, you know, Toby and I would laugh about it. We both had a good sense of humor about our differences, but his art was in the right place. He definitely thought it was on the wrong track. Peer Music is a leading music publishing and neighboring rights company

that has been championing songwriters and artists for nearly 100 years. Their musical journey began with a revolutionary ANR man named Ralph S. Peer, who is widely credited with the first Latin recording, the first blues recording, and, of course, the Big Bang of Country Music, the Bristol Sessions. Peer Music has built their company on their unwavering devotion to music creators and performers, and to this day, is still championing songwriters and promoting songs of cultural importance. Peer music represents some of the biggest names in music, including our former guest, Pooh Bear, David Lee Murphy, David Foster, Nothing with These, Gabby Moreno, Shaiyan,

the tragically hip, and many, many more. And Peer Music Neighboring Rights represents 300 record labels and more than 3,000 artists, including Billy Elish, Imagine Dragons, Martin Garrick, David Gettit, Metallica, Megan the Stallion, Herr and Stromé. So, if you want to learn more about a global music publishing and neighboring rights company that moves with integrity and treats their roster like family, go check out PeerMusic.com or follow them on social media at PeerMusk. Our good friends at ChartMetric have all the data you need to power your music career

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Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. If you've listened to this podcast over the past few years, you know about LAMP. LAMP is Los Angeles Academy for artists and music production, located five blocks from the beach in Santa Monica. They have a state-of-the-art campus, featuring a classroom of 45 in real life students. Common area is a live stage where they host open mics.

They have 15 real recording studios. They have a world-class one-year intensive high-level music program founded by the super producers, our friends, and guests, Stargate. They've been responsible for songs like Firework and What's My Name, Diamonds, Irreplaceable, a ton of hits. Think of Lamp as this nine-month high-level songwriting camp featuring world-class, mentors from the music business, including Benny Blanco, Circuit, Emily Warren, Neo, Diplo, Stargate,

Jimmy Naves, Kenny Beats, a bunch of our guests, some presidents of publishing companies, major A&R executives, you know, superstar managers like Jay Brown, who has Rihanna, you know, top-rated mixing engineers, vocal producers, lawyers, business managers, all sorts of music

professionals featuring on their Wednesday, Thursday workshops. So they're going on their fourth year and those are just examples of people, who might be your mentor if you get accepted to LAMP. So if you're interested in being one of the students who learns how to write and produce songs every single day, which is the norm for them, then you should visit lampmusic.com. That's L-A-A-A-A-M-P-Music.com.

And thank you, LAMP, for being a fan of this podcast. We are fans of yours. I think I realized I was on to something once my parents didn't get what I what I did it was like because you you try to do this thing where you're like oh this is you know it's like getting approval from your mentors from your you know from whoever is sort of your the parent in your life and it's like working in a way trying to trying to make them proud until you realize like wait no I have to have to. to be an individual and it's not about them anymore. It's got to be this next phase. I mean, it wasn't about, I wasn't even rebelling. I wasn't trying to be provocative. No, no, no.

It's just being honest. It's just this moment of like, oh, wait a minute. No, that's right. I forgot. I'm a different person than like, you know, than Dolly. When you, when you go back to the woman in me and you go back to come on over in your head, you know, you're the only artist that's ever had three diamond albums in a row. It's a crazy stat.

Do you get sick of hearing the stats? Or is it sort of like a, you can't get sick? Or do you? You know what? Now I kind of enjoy them because when everything was really going wild, I didn't, I wasn't aware of them. I was not, I didn't have time to pay attention. That wasn't, it was a distraction.

It wasn't what I did. I was not, that wasn't my role. But at the same time, I also wasn't enjoying them. Those things as successes. Now I'm like, wow, yeah, that was, that's really awesome. And I'm celebrating it now. Do you have plaques up on the walls in your house? Are there places where you have, is there a room where it's like,

this is my shrine to my success? No, I don't have that. Why? It's not because I don't appreciate them. I mean, you need a lot of space for that stuff, first of all. Well, I guess the accolades for me are, I'll just back up a little bit. Okay, so my son, he goes into the storage, the archive space in our basement. And one day, he never gone in there before.

I mean, you know, and he goes in there goes, Mom, I didn't know you had all of these accolades here, right here in the house. He says, why are they sitting down there? I said, well, I go down there sometimes. I look at them and I really enjoy it. but I said, you know, I feel kind of like I would be bringing or something. It's our family home. This is not my career display building. You know, this is like, this is our family home.

And I'd rather put up like your art, you know, your childhood artwork and stuff like that. And I'm a mom, not a star in our family home. So that's just not where I thought my career things should go. Yeah, it's a weird thing. It's like, I, I, uh, we're in the studio. And so the studio has, has some of the things in hallways, but it's like, I used to keep them on a wall in my studio. And it's like, you look over and you're like, this is very demotivating. It's either really motivating or very, but it's almost looking at it. You're like, what is, why am I looking at this? Like, looming over while I'm trying to write a song about honesty,

you know? Let's just go to come on over real quick. You know, the album ends up, with 12 of 16 songs end up being singles. I think that of all the things that are accolades about that album, it's two times diamond just in the U.S., 40 million worldwide just for that one album. But having 12 of 16 songs being singles, was there a time in the process, even while you were going through it, where you were like, hey, let's go on to the next album? Because I feel like artists now tend to be like it's Friday. The new song comes out on a new music Friday. Then the next Friday they want another song.

And they're not even album-minded. When in the process of 12 singles did you say, hey, it's time to start the next album? Or would all 16 have been singles if it were up to you? Well, I'd certainly written everything to be, to have its own life, every song. But at nine, singles, my own exhaust. itself at that time's going, like, I don't know if I have it make more videos and more, I was really overworked because the album, the singles kept coming, you see?

So I was exhausted about it, but then I thought, because it was opening up to so many other countries, and it was just really globally, in some places, getting started, I couldn't cut that off at the knees. I felt that that would be stupid and it would also be kind of selfish because it's everything that everyone had invested in making

the album go global was a huge effort and for me to pull the plug on it would have been I think just a weird thing to do so I just let it run its course and just did my best to keep up with it which is

part of the reason why I didn't really I didn't get to celebrate it as it was happening at the time when did you start celebrating successes Ooh, I'm being really honest here. So in, like during the first residency, when I go back to, when I go to Las Vegas for the very first time, I'm, and this is probably seven years ago or something like that, so quite late. I'm the people that I start working with that I just haven't seen a lot of industry people in a while because I haven't really been doing much. And all of a sudden, this respect is coming at me.

that I never felt earlier on in my career. And I started to realize that the music meant, of course, a lot to the fan, but it also meant a lot to other professionals. And they were getting the chance to express it. And it started sinking in in a really meaningful way to me, that I was actually respected. I wasn't just, you know... You weren't a pop star.

You were, like, to so many people, you're the Dolly. You know, you're Dolly Parton to so many people. I hope you can see that in the, you know. I'm just, I'm feeling the respect and I'm feeling the love and it's very gratifying. And even, you know, just so many things about it. But so being reintroduced the stage is what brought that on. But I hadn't, I didn't realize it. I wasn't aware of how much respect was out there.

And it was very nice. It was really heartwarming. It was super special. Do you, do you? Do you go back and listen to your music? Sometimes I do. I only go back and listen to my absolute deepest cuts that I, that are more things that I would write and maybe not even release,

but Mott wanted them in there, which is great. He was right. He was, he's a great producer, you know? So he made a lot of choices that were good for the albums. and a lot of those things became my favorites in the end as a recorded piece. So like jealous, for example, I love to listen to that song. I love to listen to, I don't know, I mean, there's a lot of things. I mean, I think I take all day, but, you know, there's just things that I...

Are you able to separate the personal from the creative? Like, I think I'm just now getting to a point of listening to certain, you know, albums that my you know, that I had in my old bands when I had record deals and there was this drama or that drama. But when I go back, I'm able to put myself generally in a really positive place. Are you able to separate all the drama that you've gone through from being, even just going through the career of releasing so much music, dealing with record labels, dealing with, you know, how the, all of it. You know, I just can't imagine what it's like. when you're at that point and you're going back,

do you respect younger you in the way that the other people are respecting you? I really do. I respect, because those were very, very thoughtful times for me. I was getting a chance to be my best professional ever. I was not taking it for granted. I wanted to make sure I wrote my best songwriting forward. I was putting my, I was demanding on myself. I was, you know, I mean, my vocals alone, you know, I was tireless in the studio. I was going to sing myself raw to get the vocal that was going to, you know, really do the job.

Because, I mean, the woman in me was my first, my first album with my own songs. I was not going to sell my own song short. I was going to, you know, put my best song. on there and all my expressions and everything and because of that so much of it became explanations. I wasn't singing man and I felt like a woman. I was stating man if I was like a woman. I was really like vocally living what I was saying and I didn't know the studio very well yet. I mean, my, my, the very first album that was recorded as, you know, the, the, uh, the, uh, the Cheyne Wayne album, I was in and out of the studio. It was like, you know, two takes gone. Two takes

gone. Um, whereas with my own music, I was, like I said, it was more thoughtful about it. I was, well, you were producing also. Like, I know, understand, I understand, I understand, I understand how it works. I'm just saying that, like, what you were doing once it became your songs, you are also, like, But, you know, I know people who work, who've worked with you recently, you know, David Stewart, Benny Blanco, some of these people. And the way they talk about you in the studio, I just think it's important for people to listen to this who know what they're, who know the nuances of producing. Like, you're sitting at a computer moving through Pro Tools, you know, moving through,

like you record your own vocals, you're doing, you are, you know, a lot of the great, artists that I know that do this, the ones that I can think of are, you know, you, Ariana, Megan Traynor, you know, there's, when I, trying to think of the men who do it, I know Charlie Puth does it, but it starts after that. It's like there's not a lot of men that I know that are, you know, at that level that have the skill set of being a producer and an engineer. It's wild. Man, like, you were producing at that point.

You just were, it was just, there was another producer who was also producing in the way that he produced. But if this were now, I mean, you'd be a co-producer on it. Or you'd be at least it'd be produced by both. Oh, yeah, it's a different world in that sense for sure. Definitely, those albums were all very collaborative in so many ways. And don't forget, I mean, I wrote a lot by myself. before I even got into the studio. So those were, and I think when you have a really great producer,

they want the artist to spearhead it stylistically anyway. If you have respect for the artist and you like what they do. Yes, yes. That's what makes you an artist. That's like the important thing of a producer is to help produce the artist and help them be an artist, you know? Exactly. Look, I know we...

It's very different from a deaf leopard record. You know, they're not... But there's stamps. The producer has their own stamp, but the artist has to remain, I think, anyway, stylistically and creatively the spearhead. If they do that.

It's like we were listening to come on over last night, and the amount of songs on that album that have, like, influences of, like, the cars or influences, like, You know, you're listening to these songs, and it's not just the lyrics are country. There's, like, so many, so many, like, genres that are, that are touched upon that you just don't hear in traditional country. It's just, it's like, that's why it's genre bending. That's why it's so great. Well, listen, I know we don't have a lot of time.

On a personal note, you know, my wife is battled. lime for a while and you know having people come out and talk about lime uh to the world is was really important in order to get treatment started and know that it's still in in in its infancy um but uh you know we we were we made sure we had you know uh tickets to see you at the high Hollywood Bowl. We were like, we are fans because of the human you are and also because of the songwriter and artists you are. But I just wanted to say, like, on a human level, you've met a lot to us and to our family.

So even though we haven't really hung out, I just wanted to make sure you knew that. So thank you so much for being on. I appreciate that. And I appreciate, you know, hearing, you know, your whole perspective on my, what I do. Because when you talk to another professional that writes and has those records on the mall and knows that really understands what I do, it's a different discussion, you know. And you had this thing. There's this anecdote from the documentary that was really fun. It was like here like there's no artists currently that if they were running on a hit, three hits.

five hits, six hits, where they would then say, I'm still not touring because I need to write better songs, I'm going to write. A lot of country artists tour with a studio behind them so they can do both. You know, there's a lot of things where people are trying to do, you know, multitask. But you are so singularly focused on a great song and knowing that your legacy would be associated with your craft that you just weren't stressed about getting in front of people and doing that. That was all going to come. It sounds like you, like, all you listen to you sing, and yeah, your voice is amazing, but it sounds like you were singing, you needed the great song to sing.

And that still, when I was saying that, that's like the seed of what you did, of everything. And you just took it so seriously. I know. I really did. I mean, I still do. But at that time, I had already. been singing covers in bars since I was 10. Yeah.

Since I was eight even. And so the longing to not just be the recording artist with my own writing, that was the first step. So that happened. But now I'm like, now I need my own songs as hits in order to get back on that stage and do what I've already been doing all of my life, but now as the songwriter. And but I knew that if I'd been rushed into going on tour. Just because I had three hits and whatever I had yet.

I wasn't going to have the time to also write another great album. Yeah. I just knew that I couldn't. Maybe some people. You just said the thing, though, it's the great album and not the album. We're all so much about content that I really think that part of it is like, okay, we got this, we need the second album, we need the third album. You didn't just say that.

You said a great album. And there's a whole other philosophy behind, can I be? beat this? Can I beat this? Can I go? Can I beat this song? Can it like is this song good enough? It's like it sounds you listen to these albums. You like it's pretty effortless, but no way or is that effortless. Like only a professional makes it sound effortless. It's true. Some come easier than others. You know that as a songwriter, you know, some do come. But, but, you know, and it's also that the producer has to know when the song is ready for the performance. That's another thing. And so the collaboration is always very important. I never take all the credit myself. I know it takes everybody. It takes the whole group in the community. But I love

your attitude anyway. I'm glad that you're I hope you're you spend time influencing other songwriters because your attitude is, you know. I'm trying. One song at a time. One writer at a time. One artist at a time. It's like our whole job

is to, you know, we're in the service business of the audience. So if we can, you know. I'm so I'm like people exactly. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. I could keep you on here all day, but I know I can't. So I will see you on stage soon. I look forward to it. Thank you. Thank you. This episode is produced by Joe London, Mega House Management, and myself.

See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan signing on.