And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 195: Dan Nigro pt.2

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

Today’s guest is the secret weapon behind some of pop’s most heart-wrenching, scream-along anthems. With a knack for tapping into raw, soul-baring emotions, he’s crafted hits that feel like they’re ripped straight from your journal—if your journal had hooks that got stuck in everyone’s head. Whether he’s working with fresh voices or pop royalty, he knows exactly how to make songs that pull you in and don’t let go. He’s a master of making you cry, dance, and hit replay a thousand times. And The Writer Is…Dan Nigro! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Let me tell you about ASCAP. ASCAP is America's only creator-first performing rights organization and the only one that operates on a not-for-profit basis.

They were founded by songwriters, composers, and they're still governed by them today. ASCAP's main job is to pay you royalties when songs you write are streamed, broadcast on radio, or TV, or played live. And they're so good at collecting royalties that in 2023, they distributed a record one point. $2.7 billion to ASCAP members. But they do other things too. In fact, they go to Washington all the time to advocate for your songwriter rights, which is more important than ever in the age of AI. ASCAP represents over 975,000 members,

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Plans start as low as $10 a month. learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. When today's guest was first on this podcast, he was a hit producer who was super. Now he's a bona fide super producer. But over the last few years since,

he has solidified himself as a conductor of the zeitgeist. Last time we discussed his ability to break new stars, but all he's done is repeated the seemingly impossible feat. Now with a Grammy and an ASCAP songwriter the year under his belt, he hasn't just dipped his toe into being a record exec with amusement records, Island Records as a partner. He's become the guy to whom you want to sign. So, let's get to his second episode, and the writer is Daniel Leonard Nygrom.

Oh, it's good to have you back in this time in person. Last time I was on Zoom because I think it was during the COVID era of things. It was. Let's start with, you know, you have, you know, at that time and people can go back and get a lot of your background. So we don't have to repeat too much of that. You have to listen to both episodes. Yeah, I mean, like, otherwise we're just repeating the same thing. Like, you don't have to be here.

But instead, like, you're coming with, like, armed with so much new, so many new things to talk about. And I'm really excited about, you know, Chapel Rhone. She existed as a human then. But, you know, she didn't exist as you were artists yet. I don't think. I think, or maybe you had just started working on that. No, it was probably just around. That's what it probably started.

20, 2021 was probably when we decided. I don't think we made anything official until maybe 2022, but we were definitely talking. I'm not sure if she was still at that point on Atlantic or not, but we were trying to figure out a way to, like, move her project forward. Well, this is interesting. Let's just jump to Chaperone. We'll get to the other stuff later. But, you know, there's something about artists when they get dropped from their first deal that gives them. this clarity of how the business works about who they are as an artist, because during that time

they realized who they are as an artist, and also the label realizes who they are as an artist, and they don't necessarily mesh. But there's a long list of people who got dropped. Right. You know, who there, I mean, Katie Perry got dropped, and One Republic got dropped, and Jonas Brothers got dropped, and chain smokers got dropped. We could just keep going down this list of people where their second deal is the thing that worked. Right. But what is it that made you see somebody who got dropped and didn't say, you know what, that's not really the right relationship for me. Instead, you were like, no, this is an opportunity. To me, it was the most exciting thing that ever happened. Like, when she got dropped, I was like, my only thought was like, yes, great. Like, finally.

So you worked together during the Atlantic era? We worked together before she was, while she was on Atlantic. And we had made Pink Pony Club and California. and the song loved me anyway. And basically, I was so frustrated. Well, we were both frustrated because we had made these songs. And especially when we made Pink Pony Club, we were kind of like, well, we just wrote a great song and we sent it to the label. And they were like, well, it's cool, but like, can you, like, maybe, like,

Pink Pony Club? Like, that's a weird title. And there's two guitar solos in the song. Can you at least remove one of the guitar solos? And I was like, are you guys crazy? Like, the song is insane. insane. Like, I don't mean to, you know, toot my own horn, but like, this is pretty special. Like, this is going to be, I was like, this song feels really important. You know, like,

we should probably do something, like, release it. And they're like, oh, we don't know. And anyway, so it was very clear to me from the beginning that there was a disconnect between, like, what the label wanted from her and what she actually was as an artist. And I just was like, and I was learning. It was, for me, as a songwriter, producer, I was learning about, um, like the ins and ounce of a record label and how to deal with them from the side of being a producer and how it could go so you could have such a disconnect between like what you want and basically I was it was one of the first times that I ever really pushed back because I remember you know a lot of times when you're a producer, songwriter and you get notes from the label you

I would imagine a lot of people listen to the notes you know if the label gives notes on a song whereas when I when they gave me notes I was like no like I'm not changing that. Like, be crazy. Like, this song's great. Like, and this is how it's going to come out. Like, you guys can release it, you know, or not. But like, this is how it's going to be.

And I mean, I don't even say that with like with an attitude of, it was more so like, I just felt so passionate about it. But I was like, how can you not see this clearly, you know? It also depends who the label is, who at the label, like the person giving the note, there are certain people where when they give a note, it comes from a, a, you know, studious place. It comes from a passionate place where they can justify their note in a way that that might be worth at least trying. And then there's some where you're like, no, of course I'm not going to do that. I think there's definitely A&Rs that I listen, like I will take their advice

and other ones that I'll be cautious of their advice. But it was just a moment of like feeling so much clarity as to like, I felt so strong about Chapel as an artist and I felt so strong about the song that I was like, this is clearly is not, like, we're clearly not on the same page. And so when, so to answer your question. Did you help her get off the label or was it not? I didn't help with, I didn't help with any of that. I was just like, I just told her like, I'm going to be here no matter what, you know, like, don't like, because I obviously as an artist, she was very upset like, oh, like, you know,

my label doesn't, you know, believe in me. You know, so it's like it's a hard thing for anybody to kind of feel that feeling and, you know, realize that that's the case. And then, but for me, I kept on saying, you're like, if and when they drop you, that's probably going to be the greatest thing that ever happens because I'm not leaving, you know, and I want to, and if that's the case, then, then you can just release music whenever you want. And we, the two of us can A&R it together, which is ultimately what we did.

I was like, as soon she got off the label, I was like, all right, this is, now let's go. You know, like, we wrote, like, right after that, we had written my kinkas karma, and we had naked and Manhattan kind of finished already. And I think, what was the other song we had? I think they had one more song at that point. And we were working on casual. So, like, we had all these songs that I was like, you have all these amazing things. Like, you just got to figure out a platform to express, you know, who you are as an artist,

you know, maybe, you know, getting on TikTok, getting on Instagram. And, you know, I was like, you're going to have to do it yourself. I mean, I can't really help you with, like, that part of it. But, like, in terms of, I was like, you don't need to pay me. Like, you don't, like, I just believe in this music so much that I just want to help you release it. Like, let's figure out a way to do it, you know. Well, when did you say, well, okay, let's make this an official where you do get, you know, I mean, frankly, where you do get paid for your work. You know, there's a difference of saying, okay, you get, you don't have to pay me, but also, you know, I want to start my own thing.

and help you release this music. Basically, like, once... Because you started it for this project, right? Yeah, basically after she released... She, like, self-released. I think, negative Manhattan and Mankas Karma were, like, self-released. Where did she release them there?

She just threw, like, I don't know, distributor, like... Yeah, like, basic, whatever. I don't even know what she used. It was like, whatever... Tune core or something on there. Maybe, I don't... CD Baby.

Yeah. She used something to just release them, you know? And... She burns CDs. She burns a lot of it. Yeah, got it. And she released the songs. And then, and it was once we like started to realize that the relationship was, it felt like good.

Like I was like, oh, we're like, we like, you like working with me on these songs. I like working with you. Like we're writing, our creative relationship is good. So let's like create a label to release these songs. And then we partnered up with islands because then we like, you know, we basically had the record almost done. We had like 90% finished. And so it was like, okay, like we have the record.

We've A and Art it. We had like, Chapel had like all of the visuals she wanted for it already like picked out. And then we were just like, okay, we just needed someone to act like a, you know, a major distributor to like actually release this, you know. Amazing. I mean, it's cool to see also, you know, it's a very male heavy industry. And it's on the business side of labels. Obviously, they're a lot of great women, A&R people. But to see a younger female artist take control of her career with a partner like that is really unique.

And it's exciting to watch. And shout out to Ireland, and especially Justin Ishak, my homie, who's having, you know, they're having an amazing moment. Like, what's crazy is you could have probably brought that project to a few places. And I remember Bayshuck saying this to me when he was first starting to work Atlantic. Atlantic wasn't the hottest label. Right. And then, you know, it became really hot. And then, you know, it goes over to Interscope that was already doing what it is.

And then you go to Warner and it was like, you know, it wasn't the hottest label. Then it became the hottest label. Right. You could have brought this to probably Interscope where you have, you know, a couple of other projects that you work on there really successful. Right. But you go to a label that has was on the come up. And then all of a sudden, you know, Chapel's part of the explosion. Why do you go to Island and chat up Interscope?

or instead of any else. A lot of it had to do with Justin. Justin, we both felt like Justin really understood what the project was supposed to be and, and understood the grandness of it. Like we, you know, to me I was like,

this is like Bowie. This is like Madonna. Like this is like not just like some artist. This is like, we're building like an icon here, you know? And I think that Justin was like, was the first one to like pinpoint.

It's kind of like Bowie and like, but Donna. Like, okay, like, you see what this could be. You know, like, and so the fact that he saw it right away and also the fact that Island small, like, I think that Chapel was afraid of, like, being a part of a really big label where there's, like, hundreds of artists. Like, Islands still felt like somewhat indie in nature in terms of, like, it doesn't have a large roster.

You get a lot of personalized attention, and we felt like she needed that. And so it felt like the right place for her where she can actually like talk to everybody, like the marketing department, the social media department, whatever it is. Like you can call Justin easily and just talk to him about any, you know. It just felt like, okay, like it's family vibes. Everyone's readily available for conversation and for like making sure to navigate this in the right way. And that felt like the right place to be. I think a lot of artists want to be Bowie or Madonna.

but aren't. And I mean that in a sense. It's like the desire to be bombastic and have the, you know, all the different looks and everything. A lot of times people feel like they can't afford that or they can't figure out how to do it. When Chappell was first starting this stuff, it's not like she had the hits. No one was looking. You know, she made them look. Yeah.

How does somebody go from, you know, the conversation you were saying, where, well, you're going to have to be the one who goes on TikTok and does this. Right. To becoming the one who does it. You know, other people are trying. They just can't do it. What does she have? I don't know.

I mean, it's, I really feel like it's as simple as, like, she just has it, you know? And it's that feeling, I mean, it's so cliche and so, like, it's so, like, a jean-se-cois, where you're just like, I don't know. Like, you meet the person, you get a feeling. Like, there's a feeling in your gut. And you go like, you know, they, they, they are real. You know, it's real. They're not, they're not trying to sell you. You don't, you don't feel like you're being sold something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? I don't know how to, I don't know how to explain. One of the cool things of being there when you write a song with somebody is, you know, nobody's ever heard this song before, but you have because you were there and you remember the process of doing it. the um seeing that happen but on all of the songs and the artist blowing up the way she's really just growing how do you you know it's cool watching you post like hey this is my artist I'm really

excited about this first release and then seeing where it's at it's cool to just see that from afar right um does it feel real sure I mean I don't know I don't know if it's real is a I don't I don't I don't know how to explain it. It's like, you definitely want all of the, like, hmm, how do I say it? I guess it doesn't, none of it really like sinks in the right, in the way that you think. It's like, oh, now it's like, it's just, it's, now we're here where we want to be. We've been trying to get here. So now it all feels like right or something.

I don't know. Well, there's no there there, which we've talked about, you know, it's like you think that there's like a ticker tape parade for you and your success or whatever. And it's like, you don't really know what your. aiming for you just kind of aiming to move forward and then like these things unravel the way they do i've talked to chapel about this because she's which i which i love is that she's not really like she doesn't she doesn't care about the numbers she's just like i just want to make good music and i want to release and that's always been her philosophy is like we like even making the songs that we've put out

and even like putting out good luck baby it's just like i just want to make good music and when i feel like i have a great song that i that i've written that i love i want to put it out in the world because i want to share my passion for this song you know and she's like i don't really care about the numbers or, you know, what it's doing and even like, you know, working with her recently. And like, I'm like, this happened. She's like, oh, cool. Like, she's like, she's like, not looking, you know. What's an example of that? Like, just even the fact that, like, good luck, babe, was like, number 10 on, you know, top 10. I was like, it went number top 10. She's like, oh, that's good, right? You know, and you're like, yeah, that's good.

But I, I guess my point is that is not really that, but just to say that, like, those numbers are, To me, it's exciting not because of the actual number, but what's exciting to me and what I've said to her is like, it's so awesome to think that you made this song that you're so passionate about and you love. And then you can actually visually see that like, and everybody else loves it too. And that's a pretty cool feeling. You know, like just simply that has nothing to do with numbers.

It's just the fact that like you're just going like, no, like two million people listen to this song yesterday, you know. There's two million people around the world that were like, I want to put on this song because it makes me feel good. And I'm like, and that to me, that is what feels great. In a day. Yeah, and it's different than radio, which is another amazing success. But when people choose to listen to it, they go and they press the button.

They press the playlist and it gets a stream. It's like they make that, it wasn't thrust upon them. They made the effort to go and click on it. Yeah. It's pretty awesome. I mean, it's pretty awesome. I feel so lucky and excited at the same time for the fact that, like, it's happening for her because it's just, I mean, she just is that good. There was a podcast that went around an episode that a bunch of the music industry sent me maybe about three years ago. It's just like there's no more superstars in the music business. I'm sure you've heard this too. And I remember reading that and being really upset when I read that. because I just feel like people aren't trying to make superstars. Like, I don't know.

I read that and I was like, who wrote this article and who are the ones that they interviewing for this? Because that's not cool to say. Well, you need to develop somebody who has a repertoire that can be, you know, if you have a hit and you have nothing below it, you know, if what happened with Good Luck, Babe, that was really helpful is that it wasn't her only song out. Right. So people who were discovering that were like, oh, this is a whole human. This isn't just like the first single that blew up.

No. And when somebody has the first single that blows up and they don't have any songs out underneath it, it can be detrimental to their growth. But instead, like, people can dive into the person. But what's strange is like, and maybe we talked about it three years ago. I don't think that right around when that came out. But, you know, people were saying, well, Billy Eilis was the last. And it was same era kind of as, like, Lizzo and all these people kind of like broke all at the same time. but they were the last to really get a hold of like Instagram when that was big when that first started, whatever.

And then there's the TikTok people, but everyone's shuffling through. Why do people stick? You ended up with probably the two most obvious examples of that being false. Right. You know? Is that because of the music or is that because of the person? It's because of, I would hope it's because of both, you know, and like a very, very, very. good combination of both of those things.

I think the person is very important, but I don't think you can have a superstar person without and have it feel culturally important without good music, you know? So I would hope that it would be both of those. I like to think it's both of those things. I think when I work with Olivia and with Chappell, like it's so, there's such a craft to the songwriting

and there's so much like editing and reworking and making sure, like really, really trying to stage true to the process of making a great recording, you know? And I feel like, I think there's a lot of people out there in the pop world that do it, but then there's also a lot that don't spend that much time to really like get a song right. Yeah, because you're just releasing something to get something out, you know, versus trying to happen. I mean, I feel like that's like a method that a lot of people take is just like releasing a bunch of music. And I think it works, you know, for certain people, but it's not what I, you know.

Who, I, I don't think I asked this then, but was there a mentor on the producing side that really sort of, you know, the few people, I can't remember who it was the second Ariel, Ariel was a big, I mean, like, my mentor, like, was Ariel and like watching how he made records and when he made, like, the Hymn record or made the Vampire Weekend record, he spent, like, a year making it, you know? And to me, like, seeing and being able to be in, like, I was. I didn't work on those records at all, but I, like, I'm friends with them, so I'm periodically over the months of a process, see how, like, a song can evolve and really learn about, like,

really trying all the avenues for a song. Like, does it, do the drums come in here? Does this, is it this tempo? Is it sung hard? Is it sung soft? Like, you know, like, like, really expressing all the different versions of a song, you know, or, you know, just trying out all the different have artists that are willing to do that and I feel like a lot of artists are not. And I don't work with those artists. Like I meet artists all the time that like people are like, oh, you'd like work with them. And I'll do a day with him. I'm like, nope.

Like I can tell right away. Like we are not compatible. You know, I need someone who's willing to come into the studio and hash it out with me and be like, by the way, can you get on the microphone again? I know you sang this already, but can you sing it again? Can you sing it again? Can you try it in a different key? Like, it's not feeling right, you know? Yeah.

And even lyrically and all that stuff, it's a, that, that, witty lyrics, sometimes that happens right away, but to follow it up is really hard, you know, to write that verse that verse melody isn't throw away. It isn't, you know, all those things. And both Olivia and Chapel, like, we hash out songs. Like, we deep, deep guys. Yeah, the good luck babe story is that it had like a million regrets. We tried four different keys for the song.

We rewrote the lyrics. we like, I mean, like, part of it was me that I just didn't like actually, because I never, when we wrote the song, like, we, we laid down a scratch vocal and like, it didn't feel like, if something felt good about it, but it wasn't like, to me, I wasn't like, oh my God, like we wrote like the best song ever. But it, because also the original lyric was good luck, Jane. And I remember, like, chapel was like, that was the original idea, like, was coming up with the name, like, Jane Doe. She's like, good luck, Jane. And I remember being like, I wasn't like sold on. Jane, you know? And then like the one of the lyrics was, was, yeah, you had to stop the world to stop the feeling was originally like you have to stop the world to stop wet dreaming. And that was like, and it was like more playful and it was like sort of like a joke. And then like, and that was literally on the original demo. And I remember like being like, I don't know about that. I don't know how I feel about this. I'm not not opposed to the like using the word wet dream in a song, but it just didn't feel right, you know. And yeah, but like obviously like, you know, on

reflection and having the fact that that chaplain and I have a relationship like that we work all a time that I could she can come over a week later and I could play her at the demo and she'd be like yeah that's weird you know yeah you want to re-sing it you want to rewrite that lyric like a lot of people aren't afforded those opportunities when they're working with an artist and that you know one's in Nashville and you're in L.A and you got at the demo and then people like where's the demo you're like I'm always I subscribe to like I won't send it you know like send us what you got I'm like, no, because if you, if I send it to you, you're not going to like it. And then you're going to tell me, you don't like it. And I already know that it's not good. You know, like,

so why would I send, why would I do that to myself? But if you gave me another two hours with your artist, I can fix this song. Like, I'm hearing it clearly what needs to be fixed. I just need a little time to fix it. And I can't do it. A physically can't re-sing this vocal myself. I mean, maybe you can now with AI, but like, but I, but I, but, but, but, but, but, but, I'm like, no, I need the artist to come back in the room and we need to rewrite this if you even want to hear the demo, you know? This is the most valuable thing that you will probably say in this podcast because I try to tell my producers that are signed to unknown. And I'm like, hey, man, you know, you don't owe anyone this demo. Right.

If you send, every writer you know is going to say, can I have this? Right. You know, and you can just say, hey, I'm still working on it. Yeah. or you can say no. Or, like, because surprisingly, people are like, oh, okay. Yeah. And if it's, like, yeah. They're not paying you for the song.

Right. And if you send it, all you're doing is setting yourself up for someone to be like, I like, I like the original. Right. Or you're setting someone up for, you know, it really takes somebody who's in it with you who can listen to that demo. Be like, how can I beat that? How can I beat that? How can I beat that?

Then you can maybe send it to that one artist or that one co-writer. But I'm always trying to get the producer to be like, just send it to me and let's go over notes together before we send it to the artist. Because we'll refine it 10 times on the production set before, you know, the artist hears it. But as soon as they hear it, they're like, you know, it's locked in. I mean, we never made a demo of good luck, babe. That's the, I mean, like, because it wasn't good enough to make a demo. Like, when we, when the song was like ready to be listened to by people and it sounded

pretty close to what everybody, like, that's when I made a bounce of it. Yeah, yeah. It sat on my hard drive for a year and a half. Yeah. As like a, as like, literally like a little idea. that was sitting on my hard drive, you know? And it wasn't until we found the right key. And then, like, actually, like, I found, like,

because it was just like a, like, a little loop. And then when I actually, like, in the room with her, like, started adding some, like, some, like, some, like, synth strings just as like a, like, is this, like a string? Are we doing, like, strings in the song? And she was like, yeah, I like that. And then I kind of just, like, took that idea and ran with it. Like, like, okay, this is going to be, like,

this, like, baroque pop, like, thing, you know? But it was never, like, we didn't write it with that intention. That was never, like, the thought when we were writing the song was going to feel like that. Yeah, you can only get that on the fifth time of editing a song. It's weird. Because if you went in writing that, it would stifle probably melody and lyrics. Yeah, no, because we wrote the whole song was just over like literally like a synth loop.

It was like the chords that you hear in the song, which is like that on a loop, the chords never, the chords never changed. And then later on after we like wrote the song, I changed the chords to the pre-chorus. Yeah, yeah. Well, that brings us to the next segment of what would Justin Trampen's? or asked Dan Nygaon and the writer is. And he asked, I'm always so inspired when you talk about

how when you find artists and writers that you love writing with, you just dig into that instead of getting sucked into the endless L.A. speed dating writing spin cycle. I feel very, oh, is there more so the question? Yeah, it's a long question. Can I answer that part? Well, first he says, how do you make that choice?

That's the actual question. But that, you know, he just said basically, how do you have the confidence to dive that deep when everyone else is getting the advice of I don't understand why people do that what the speed day thing I did it okay I'll I guess I'll say I learned from experience I was very fortunate when I moved to L.A. I well some people would call it fortunate and somebody would call it like I was living a little hermit in a in a cave but basically I moved to L.A. I was living with my friend Justin and we were writing Justin Raisin and we were writing songs together and we wrote, we just would write these ideas for REL. We spent literally

two years of our lives and we were fortunate because we were doing some commercial work on the side so we were able to pay our bills. So like that part was taken care of. So we weren't stressed out about like how are we going to make ends meet and like taking gigs that we didn't really want to take to like that would suck up a lot of our time. Because I know that that happens for a lot of producers where they take on projects that because that's the only way that they can, you know, live month to month. But we were very fortunate. We landed a couple of commercials and then it afforded us time to kind of spend time working on our craft of songwriting. And we spent a good two years just writing songs for like what I call song starters for like, you know, artist that Ariel was

working with. And I realized that because we had such a close, Justin and I were like had a really good writing relationship and then Ariel is such a good producer that it was like a very, a very, symbiotic relationship for a while. And then when that kind of like, you know, I don't want to say it ran its course, but like, you know, I moved into, I moved into a different house. And then like I was getting better at production. I want to start doing my own thing. I spent like three years, maybe four years doing that.

Like, like, oh, so-and-so wants to work with you. This new artist that's like, and I'm like, oh, they're cool. And then I'd spend two days with them. And then the next two days I'd spend with another artist that was like kind of cool and up and coming. And then, oh, this big artist likes your Sky Ferrer song. They want to work with you. And I spend a week with them.

And then it's like, and then you have all these productions piling up and these like half written songs. And like you're looking back like at the last month or two that you did. And you're like, none of these songs are any good. I don't really believe in any of this right now. Like, and you're trying to finish these demos for people because obviously you want people to, you got to finish the work that you're doing. And I just did that for so long and it ended up with like nothing.

I always say nothing. Like that's not a knock on the artist. that I worked with at the time, and I feel like I did obviously write some good songs in that time. But you didn't end up with what you ended up with once you stop that. Right. Exactly. And I feel like there needs to be much more of like, I wish that writers and producers, like, had a little bit more passion for the artists and like really found that, like, artists that they believed in and actually spent time with them. Because I think that as a writer or producer, that's how you're going to win, you know? And that like, that's just how you're

going to like end up having songs that matter and songs that mean things to people. It's like when you really like spend the time to get to know them and really help them like, you know, like nurture like their own creativity so that they can really like flourish as an artist, then it's like it's better for everybody because then the artist ends up with better songs. You end up with better songs and songs that you believe in. And I think the songs actually end up lasting like standing the test of time, you know. And too many people just like I have, I have, you know, producers that I work with that, I don't want to, I'm not mentoring them. I wouldn't say they would ever call me like my, like, I'm their mentor, but definitely like people

that come to me for advice and like, and I always get like so confused when I'm just like, oh yeah, I did this. My schedule. I'd be like, I remember like this, like a writer or producer that I'd be like, oh, cool, you were to come over next week, work on this song. They're like, oh, I'm really booked up next week. And I'm like, you're booked up with what? Like, what are you booked up with?

Like, well, I have this new artist coming in. I'm like, you were booked up with a lot of bullshit. You know, like, that's like, none of it's important. So you pick a day to cancel one of those sessions and come over because I'm working on these songs right now and I need some help, you know, like. And it's like, but it's like this rat race that everyone's in to try to just like, like, book as many sessions with as many people. I was like, that's not what this is about.

It's about like finding one. And I remember asking like a writer, like, would you like work with that person? Like, yeah. And I'm like, how many sessions you have with them? Like, none. And I'm like, well, then book more with that person. Like, if you wrote a good song with that person, spend 20 days with that person.

You know, like, that's what you need. Because that's like, that's what happened with Chappell and I. That's what happened to, like, Olivia and I didn't get the driver's license on day one. We got the driver's license on day 25, you know? Our good friends at Chartmetric have all the data you need to power your music career. From playlist placements to stream counts, to follower demographics, and many more. It's never been easier to understand how your artists fit in the music industry. and how they can grow.

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It just takes such confidence in, you know, I mean, first of all, a lot of the writing community is based around pitch songs, which gets really complicated in an era where so few pitch songs are getting cut. Right. You know, I mean, I think there's still value in the idea of crafting songs with fellow writers whose goal is to write a great song. Sure. Not to say just to, you know, there's, there's versions. of the not writing with an artist that can still be committed to great material. But I think what you're saying about creating great artists, and even a lot of times great art, I mean, when you mention Madonna as a reference, like so many of her songs are outside songs.

In fact, all of them in the beginning are outside songs. Are they? She didn't write Like a Virgin. That's Billy Steinberg. Yeah, but what about what was her first, what was her first hit off of the first? Holiday. No, not holiday. Well, you know, it's cool.

It's like, we're, go, wait, hold on. I'm on the internet. Burning Up. She wrote Burning Up. That was her first hit, wasn't it? I don't know, but I'm going to look it up and we're going to keep talking. Look up. Tell me another story while I look this up.

Tell me a random story that has nothing to do with music. I went and saw Madonna live a few months ago and she played Burning Up on guitar. because the version that's like the on you know that was recorded is like this really like fun kind of like synthi like it sounds like other songs that from that era but she played it like on a distorty guitar and I was just I just remember thinking like this song is so fucking cool and I'm pretty sure it was like her first single and I think she wrote it herself I mean that's I think I think the idea of um I'm I get I get what you're saying no writing the songs with other songwriters is actually really great I think and, and nurturing those relationships and writing great songs with them is, is also really important. But like when you hear, I'm talking more specifically about the rat race of like, you know, even, even songwriters that just like, oh, I'm meeting this writer today. And then I'm meeting this writer.

And then then the next day I have a session with this artist and there's a brand new artist. And like, there's, like, you just need time to develop songs. You know, they just, yeah, whether it's with another writer or it's with another artist. It's just like every great, every, I shouldn't say great because I, you know, they're my song. So some people probably think they're terrible. But every song that felt like it was an important song for my career, I think about how long it took to get that song to be feel good. And it was definitely like more than three days, you know?

Yeah. I got a lot of that through the MXM world. You know, they really treat in the Luke world, all that stuff. They really treat songs like when you do a sound recording, you know, the final sound record. it better be flawless. And it better be something that, you know, is familiar and unique. It needs all the elements to make a great recording.

And those just don't happen in the day of. Even if the resemblance of the song can happen day of, that final recording. And I could see is the person who has the song on their hard drive for a year and a half, like, why are you rushing, sending some version other than the final? Right. And you're also, you know, how many, how many finishers are there, so they say, as producers. You know, a lot of writers and producers can get a song up to, you know, to the 95% but not to the 100% that you can do. So if you know what 100% song sounds like. I mean, that point is a little, I mean, I get what you're saying. I get, you're right. But also it is weird. Like, it's kind of a subjective, like, of. feeling of like like like to me like I know a lot of producers that like are really like tweak I mean I will like there's certain songs where I tweak and tweak and like lose my mind over it and there's definitely songs that I've made where I'm just like I don't know it feels good like I don't know the drums right and I'm like I don't know it doesn't feel like it it doesn't feel like it I want or blah blah blah and I'm like all I can say is that when I listen to it I like it and that's all I care about and like if I if I like it and it makes me feel good every time I listen to it and I want to listen to it again I'm not going to like I'm not going to like I overthink it, you know. But obviously, there's other times when I'm like, I'm overthinking it.

And I'm like, I can't get this chorus to hit the right way and I'm spending days on it. But other times, I'm just like, I don't know. Like, don't, if it feels good, let's move on. Well, this can answer some of your question about Madonna, which I do think is interesting looking further in. Am I wrong? Am I totally wrong? No, no.

You're right. You're right on it, but it's not on every song. You know, her first two songs, she used the writer. Obviously, she's not, you know, um, um, necessarily the producer on them. And the burning-ups B-side is physical attraction, which she didn't write, and holiday she didn't write. And so it's like, it's just interesting that when you're talking about your, you know,

a lot of curation and outside songs can be part of an artist's career. Sure. And that's, maybe it's because of your ability to write, but you've also found artists that are also good songwriters, but there are some artists that you've worked with in the past that probably could use an outside song, I'm sure. I'm sure, yes, yes, I'm sure.

You know, and it's not, not because of you necessarily. You know, I'm just saying, why are you saying I can't write a good song for them? No, I, like, for sure, there are opportunities to find outside songs and be like, have you tried those ever on an artist? Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've listened to pitch songs for artists, you know, like, I'm always open for it.

It's really hard, like, especially with, like, I mean, I feel like I have a very specific, I think what's important, like, for most producers and songwriters is to find what you're good at. I think it took me a really long time to find, like, what my role in the music industry was. It's like what, like, and you have, you know, people that, like, for instance, like, REL was my mentor, and he was, like, doing a specific thing. And I think for a certain time when I was like younger and coming up, I was like, well, this is what he's doing. So I should do that, you know. And then you learn.

You're so fortunate to have that as your person, you know. Sure. But I realized that was a very different person than him. It took me years to realize like, oh, like, I'm actually just a little bit more on the pop side of things. Like he's a little bit more indie. And like my taste just happens to run more pop. And I just want things to feel like a little bit more like in the formula. it makes me feel better when I listen to it, though.

And it's just what I like, you know? And I think, but I also realize, like, what's my skill set was, like, Ariel is, like, incredible. He's so production heavy and, like, the sounds. And I'm like, my skill set is more so, like, like, if I find an artist that has a great lyrical concept of what they want to talk about, I've always been a melody person. Like, I was always melody first. That was always my thing, you know, when I wrote songs myself, I, like, wrote,

melodies and then it was like like scrambling to find lyrics to work with the melodies that I was writing you know and I just was always like about the feeling like when I would write songs even as a teenager I'd be like oh yeah like these chords feel so good with this melody and I'm like I don't know what it's supposed to be but like the song about but I just know that when I sing this melody with these chords it feels really good you know and then I started to realize like well I think that's actually what I'm naturally gifted at is like the melody and the chords and like the way that things feel against each other. And I work better with an artist that has a concept that they want to say, because I could kind of fill in the, if, if they're lacking, like, obviously, like,

Olivia and Chapel both write melodies and chords and they write their own songs. But there's times where they do come in with just a concept, you know, and an idea for a song. And I could, and I love that part of it being like, oh, that, that lyric, like, that feels like it's like these types of chords, or to give them the option of like, so is it more like these minor chords? You want something major here? Does the melody like really lift? Do you want it to feel like the melody like goes like this the whole time? And like being able to like work with an artist that that has that lyrical identity and I could kind of like do my thing and the things that I'm confident in around them works really well. But that's not, but other people aren't like me. It just so happens that I learned

after years of, you know, trial and error that I was like, oh, this is this is what I'm good at. and I need to work with artists that these are their fortays so that I can compliment them. I think there's another good time to point out how many great producers were in bands and how many great writers were in bands. Right. You know, everyone in this room was in a band. Every, like, you go to the, Justin Tranner was in a band. And, you know, you have, but go to the producers like the Jack Anton,

and Ricky Reed and Ryan Tudder and, you know, go down the list. And it's like there's something about the collaboration and knowing that what you do in the room is to compliment other people in the room. And it's, you can't have, I know obviously some of those people have large egos. So, but you can, you have to be able to listen to other people and see what they need and fill in that void. Right. You know, otherwise it's like, you know, you can always.

write a song by yourself. Do you ever do that anymore? Like, is there ever a part of you that's like, you know, I'm going to write a song by myself? Yeah, I do. I've written a couple of songs that I've written with artists, like, are like seeds of songs that I wrote by myself. Would you ever, would you ever release a project again? I don't think so. I don't, I don't know. I don't ever. That's not a closed door. I always like what, like, when I got done with actually, with, like, Olivia and, because, like, I kind of finished both Olivia and Chapples records at the same time. in the summer of last year. And I purposely took, like, the rest of the year off.

I didn't want to, like, work on anything. So I kind of just, like, took time. And I had these ideas where I was like, hmm, should I just start working on music by myself, you know? And then I was just like, nah, I don't want to do that. How do you take, I'm thinking about it? How do you take time off? It's easy.

Take time off. How do you, like, I don't know, take time? I took, like, probably five months off. Yeah. Don't you feel like that like that just do you get nervous? What? Nervous of what? I don't know.

Maybe losing momentum or creativity or like. No. I don't know. I feel like that's the lead like this makes sense if I'm talking to a Scandinavian who takes, you know, summers off and stuff like that. But I feel like there are very few Americans that aren't full workaholics. It sounds like you're not a workaholic. I mean, I work pretty hard.

But I should say that I have. hadn't taken time off in a long time and having a, having a baby at home and like, right, right, right. That changes it. I was like, I actually, you know what? I tried over the summer. Was I, like, timing up a paternity leave kind of thing? I took, I took two or three months off when, when social was born.

But, but, but yeah, I was just like, I got done with the records and I felt so, like, creatively spent that, like, I mean, I was doing, it wasn't like I was doing nothing. I was like, you know, like, I remember, like, in, I took, stopped working in July and then, like, Chapples was starting to plan for headlining tour and I would go to like some rehearsals and like help like with some stuff like I'm not like taking like fully just like I'm not vacationing.

You're just not necessarily grinding I'm not right. I wasn't grinding in this. Just to do the next album. Yes. I think I learned after like trying like a session or two like I'd go into the studio with someone and I'd just be like I don't want to be here. I don't want to be here. I don't have anything like if I don't feel like I have anything good to contribute to this session

then I'm just like working to work and that's not like fun like you know no it's fun to have uh an objective even if it is you know uh a fictitious project that you're not going to release you know but having something you know having something to write may going into a room where there's no real purpose yeah is really tough it's really tough to do that you know and i think a lot of you know when you first are coming up in the business and you don't have Ariel as your mentor or and the industry is like do two sessions a day. You know, for a lot of those people,

that's where they learn all the different techniques and they get their 10,000 hours and they do all those things during that grind. Right. And that, you know, I wouldn't say that people from the beginning should be taking months off if... Everyone takes six months off right now. Like, you kind of have to...

I don't want to see if to earn that, but a little bit, like, if you really want to learn, you know, the best way... to do it is to grind through some of those sessions that you're like, why am I here? And the purpose in that moment is like to write something that these co-writers wouldn't have had otherwise, like find some motivation in that room to finish a good song. Or maybe just walk out. I don't know. Maybe it's just good terrible advice. I've walked out of a couple of sessions. Have you really? Yeah. How, what were you? Did you have an excuse? No, just like, I don't,

I think I've got a couple times, be like, eh, you know what? This isn't working out for me. I don't, I don't leave. Was that awkward or was it just? I, I'm, I'm, I've made it awkward a couple of times. On purpose? Yeah, just for fun. Classic. Okay, so let's go with some more of your co-writers. On that note, this segment is called

What Would Steph Jones Ask Dan Nygroe on, and The Writer Is? And she asked, what's on your guilty pleasure playlist? Guilty pleasure, but I don't think I have any guilty pleasures because I just love everything I listen to, but lately I've been just listening to, I've been exploring, like, exploring, like, playing music for my daughter. And right now her new obsession, which I'm really excited about, is just Mariah Carey.

Oh, yeah. And so we're just, like, listen to, like, a lot of Mariah Carey right now. We just listen to basically we just listen to always be my baby and touch my body over and over again. And it's just like this endless loop. And then she just wants to dance with me in the living room to the two songs. And it's really fun. She then asks, do you have any pre-writing studio rituals?

I don't have, I mean, not really. However, I found myself, this is something that has happened a couple of times where I noticed it about myself that like I, if the session is at a certain time, I usually like to be in the room like for an hour. But I guess this is a prewriting. It's not a ritual, but usually about like an hour before a session, I think I need to be in the room and like in front of my computer or playing the piano. I'm like not necessarily even trying to come up with an idea for the session, but I just need to be ready for the session. Like mentally, like, I'm in this space and I'm there. And I realized actually recently, like, it's, it happened once or twice like this year where like I had a session and the session was like, say if it was for like 12, the artist like shows up, like has to show up late for

two hours or something. And it really like if, if I think my body like is, if my body's preparing for 12 o'clock, if it gets past. a certain time. You. I've like lost the cre- Then I'm no longer ready. Creatively flaccid, if you know. Creatively flaccid, yeah.

What's a happy accident that ended up in a song? A happy accident that happened in the song. That's a good question. What's a happy accident that happened in a song? I'm trying to think of, trying to think of like a, maybe I try to think of a good one for Chapel and one for Olivia

like happy accidents I don't know of a happy accident I'm trying to think of a one doesn't like really come okay a happy accident was our song Chapel and I song Feminine Ammonin happened

sort of I don't want it's we we hadn't worked together in a while I remember it was like December of 2021 maybe or I think it was December of 2021 maybe it was 22 But basically I mean it must have been 2021 but basically she came over and we hadn't worked together in like a month or two and we only had this one day to make music and we both walked in the room and we're both like really exhausted like it was like we both like she had been doing other things and I like I think I forget what I was doing but like she came over and we both kind of looked at each other. I was like she came over and we both kind of looked at each other. other. And like after like an hour of like talking or something, it was like, we both were like, I don't know if we want to write a song today, you know. And then I was like, okay, I was like, this is, we can't waste this day. Like this day needs to happen. Like we, we only have, this is the

last day of the year that we're working together. Like, we have to write something. And I was like, what if we just write a song with one word? I was like, you know, like, I forget, there's like a song that my wife always plays like, there's like, I forget what, it's like a popular 80s song where it's just like one lyric, like one line over and over again, it's like the whole song.

I was like, let's just come up with like a dance song with one word or like one phrase, you know? And she was like, yeah, cool. Like, let's do it. And I just like put in like a drug, I kicked snare and then I started like playing the baseline

of the chorus like on my like my MS 20. Like we found a a bass line that we liked. And I just started looping that, looping the baseline. And then basically like feminine amonon. Like we just were like, let's come up with something like ridiculous.

Like just one word that we could just sing over and over again. And then, and that song, that's kind of how feminine amon happened. And so the funny thing was that we were like, and I was so like, this is our parameters. Like we need to just write a song with one word.

And then we came up with the word. And it was like, I think I like said like, phenomenon. I was like, phenomenon. mom. Like, we were like, feminine.

We, like, came up with the word. And then we, like, we, like, thinking about it. And then I was like, ah, fuck. I was like, but what would make the song really cool is if it was like a fake out. And we actually wrote a song and then it went into this part. And so, like, that's, that song came out as sort of an accident, you know. Great. What's your favorite candle in your studio?

A peyote poem by, by Reno. Okay. And then, what's your favorite song that you've ever written on July 2nd? in 2024. That was another stuff, John's. It's called to be yours. Cool.

Hopefully that one comes out. Okay, next segment is, and this will lead into a few more things here, but what would Amy Allen ask? Dan Niagara on, and the writer is. You have a lot of friends, apparently. Danny Boy, one of your most impressive qualities, amongst others, is your instinct on the right projects to develop,

which we've sort of talked about, and you were saying, you know, but what about an artist makes them stand out to you? And the reason why I didn't mind repeating that question is because you were like, well, you know, I just have a feeling. Well, I meet a lot of artists too. And I have met people where I'm like, I have this feeling and they didn't become Chapel Rhone.

So what, you know, have your feeling ever been wrong? You know what? I'm going to say the most egotistical thing I've ever said. My feeling is never wrong. Yeah. I've never been wrong about an artist that's going to. make it or not make it. That's crazy.

Yeah. That makes you very valuable. I met, I will say, I don't know if she remembers this, but I met Dua Leapha in 2014 before she was even signed. Maybe it was even 2013. It was really early on. I went to the UK for a writing trip. And she was signed.

She was with TAP at the time. And Gabs was working at TAP. And they were like, hey, we have this artist. and I, before I went, and I was a no name writer. I had no, you know, I think maybe the Skyfarer songs were my only credits at the time. And they were like, we have this artist do a leap of a while. And I was like, well, can you send me music? And they were like, no.

They were like, no, you're not sending you music. We promise you that you'll like her, that she's really talented. And I was like, and I like, I never work with an artist. I need to hear the music to see if I like it. and and they were like, please, like, we promise, like, she's incredible. And so I went into the UK and I met her and I worked and I did a day with her. And the session was like a, like, the session just went wrong. Like, there was like, there was another writer in the room and like they had a concept

that was like a little bit like, I remember I was like trying to follow along and we ended up like writing a bad song. But all I can say was that I walked in the room and I was like after two hours of being in room. I was like, wow, this girl is a fucking superstar. I was like, this girl is a superstar. And I emailed Gabs after the session in 2014. I said, we wrote a terrible song, but this girl is a superstar. Like, congratulations. Yeah, I remember working with her where it was like, yeah, I wrote, I have them. They're not great songs with her. But she was, what was really excited was, was like, oh, cool, there's an alto.

I remember when she sang, I was like, oh, raspy alto is so exciting because it was just like, it's just so rare. It's so rare to have a pop star. It was like that. But I think the whole dance part of it. Chappell's an alto too. There you go. Well, I guess we'll then have to work together.

And then Amy asks, what do I have to do to get a Polaroid on your wall? She has a Polaroid on my wall. She says, what do I have to do to get on your? Polaroid wall, so maybe I mess at the order. There's a lot of people that forget that they have a Polaroid. I just worked with somebody recently, too, that they were like, oh, I don't have a Polaroid. I was like, yeah, you do. I have a signature book that

everyone signed. I'm pretty sure. And then there are a couple people who've signed it twice because they were convinced that they didn't have it. Also, I would like to say that, like, one of them would always show up really hi. So it's like, kind of mean.

When, you know, Amy obviously worked on some of the newer Olivia stuff. Last time we met, like, Gus hadn't even come out yet. Right. Vampire is so good. It's such a good song.

In this era where people are trying to do two-minute, 30 second songs. What makes you, does that make you want to do, you know, Bohemian Rhapsody? Does that make you,

does it make you want to? Yes. I mean, you know, what's funny? You know what's funny? Because, you know, I think it's all bullshit.

Like, this whole, like, obviously, like, I get why, like, a two-minute song works. And it makes sense, and it does work. It works for the Beatles.

It works. But, like, Queen outstreams the Beatles. Like, if you look at Queen, It means discography. Their hits have twice as many, maybe three times as many streams as Beatles songs do. I mean, that's why they're cataloged you sold for a billion dollars to Sony.

Like, people like epic music. People love it, you know? And especially if people are afraid, like, if we're saying that songwriters are afraid to write, like, things because they have to fit into a mold of two minutes. Like, if there's a rarity for other things, it only makes it more exciting. Totally. I think what the issue is when you just, you just nailed it. which is that the streamed version of those songs are amazing.

And if you're still trying to, and what helps is a vampire, I wonder if that was her first single. If that was where driver's license was, would it get the same kind of love? Or did she earn the right to release vampire? It's a great song, but like, do you, Bohemian Rhapsody didn't come out first.

No. You know. Was it their first big single? I don't know. Queen? Yeah, was it their first? What was their first? I mean, I just know that.

the movie. I don't actually know what I lost the movie. So I'm not really sure exactly, but it wasn't first. Okay. And they didn't want them to release it. It was too long and all this. Like radio itself is a, your, your music when you're on radio is a commercial for the commercials.

You're trying to keep people there long enough to listen to the commercials. So they're trying to keep people's attention by moving through songs. They're not trying to play November rain. They're not trying to play November. rain on MTV every day at 3 o'clock when I got home to school. They played November rain

and they played like, you know, all these great songs that are 7, 8, nine minutes long, you know, you just, it's so rare and vampire isn't that. But it is an epic journey from front to finish.

Was there anybody that was like, you know, we should do a radio cut? Nobody said it should be a radio cut, but one of my, I've told the story, I think before, But when we made the song, it was like all this, like, you know, we've been talking about so far.

Like, it was a process. Like, Olivia brought in the idea for the song. And it was like, basically it was the chorus was pretty similar. There was some different lyrics, but melodically it was pretty similar. And like the tag was pretty much the same. I think we tweaked like a couple of words of the tag and stuff. But we rewrote the verses. and then we laid down a scratch of that

and then later on wrote a second verse and then the second chorus and then the bridge happened later after we had produced out like two different versions of the song and decided that it was gonna be like an uptempo song because my first original production was actually when the second verse hit it

and the drums hit it and it was like more of like a laid back like it was like more of like a just a chill beat you know and because I when we wrote it to me it was like it was a ballad, you know? And Olivia actually was like, no, I don't want it to sound like that. Like, it needs like, starts to drive. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. So, um, anyway, so we made that. And then we made the, we wrote the bridge like a month later. And then we recorded the

bridge. And then it was like taking me figure, like, figuring out ways to I make the transition. So I started putting those big hits in there. And it was like, which is like all piecemeal together at this point of just like figuring out like, okay. And we're, we're building this like, this journey. Right. Yeah. And so we were excited. I was like, I was like starting to get excited about it. And this was the, I remember was like the end of January of February, 2020. Three, I guess it was last, yeah, January, February.

And the label and, you know, everyone like on her team was like getting like, you know, like, where's music? Like, we're not sending very many demos out. We're not sending stuff. And I hate what we talked about for like sending out a demo. So we've invited some people to the studio. I was like, we're not going to send you demos because we don't want to get anybody to get attached to. any of this music. But if you guys want to come in one day and listen, you can. We'll play you some of the ideas that we're working on. So you know that we're working. We're not just fucking

around, you know. And so, and we were really excited about vampires. So I think that might have even been the first song out of like the batch of new songs that we were working on that we played them. And I remember we play it for her managers who I love. They're amazing. And I just remember playing it. And we get done. And they just like looked up and they were like, it's, sounds like three songs and one. And we were like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And they were like, okay. But like, it sounds like three songs and one. And we're like, yeah. Like, we're on the same page. So we all agree. But they were very like, okay, well. And then I remember like this like, I remember like Olivia was like in the corner just like like, like, like, no. Like, like. And I was like, no,

no, it's good. I just, it's making me realize I just need to work on the transitions. Like, It's not, I felt very confident, like, this is going to be good. I just haven't nailed the, the way it flowed together yet, you know? It's like that three songs suite from, from, okay computer, the three songs suite for, like, what November rain is, or what, you know, all these great, it was so exciting to hear that, because, again, it's this time where I think people are so scared of keeping their jobs as songwriters. Right.

That they're, they're just trying to get songs out and they're, they're trying to placate the label and do the things and not create art. So it was really exciting to hear an artist feel confident that, no, this is my first single. And, I mean, the song's great,

but it also, it's like, it's a risk. Yeah, but I think the people, I mean, I guess maybe it's easy. I feel like maybe like it's stupid for me to say it,

but I just, I don't, I just think people need to actually just take more risks. Yeah. I think people want, I mean, like, listen, people want, like, simple pop songs all the time. I love simple pop songs. But I think there's, like, there's like a, you know, a journey that we all go on as listeners of what we want to listen to.

And sometimes we want really happy music. Sometimes we want sad. Sometimes I want, you know, like, to listen to always be my baby with my daughter, like, a hundred times in a row. And sometimes I want to listen to, like, a queen song and, like, digest it in a different way alone or something. You know, like, I think that listeners just want lots of different music. They do want two minute pop songs, but they also want five minutes songs. Is it easy? It's like writing for right now, it feels like, you know, you have the mightest touch right now.

You know, is it easy for you? No, none of making music is easy. And I always find that to be weird that people think that music should be easy. Like I remember. It's hard as shit. Like I remember. It's so hard. to write something good. It's so easy to write music. It was really hard to write something good.

I had a revelation with an old therapist of mine that actually passed away, like back in 2016. I remember I was going through like a, right before I actually feel like I came into my stride. I would say like I, I think I hit like a lot of clarity around 2017, 18. And right before then I was going to a therapist and like figuring out some stuff in my life. And I was really unhappy of my place in the music industry. And I felt like I've been out here for like six years at the time. And I like really like didn't have much to show for it. And I remember, I forget the exact words that were used. But something were like, I was like, well, you know, just working like, yeah, we got a good song. But it really wasn't fun. Like I, I didn't have any fun working with

them. And and my therapist was like, fun. Like, it's your job. You know? I was like, yeah. He's like, So what makes your job? Why does your job have to be fun? And I was like, I guess it doesn't. And like, is that a prerequisite for a good song? Is it has to be fun to make? And I was like, no. And it's like, so is that like your idea of a session?

If it's fun, then it was good, you know? And I really like hit me. I was like, right. Like actually making songs, like sometimes writing good songs suck. Like, it's actually not fun. I always say I like having written a song. Would you say? I always say I like having written a song.

I never really, like, no one likes writing. If you, there's the party vibe and like, don't get me wrong, you know, you end up writing, sometimes at writing cans for there's 10 people in a room and you're having a blast and you get your 10% but it's so much fun and that song turned out to sound like a party. Like, that's fine. But like if you're going to write that song that if you're going to have four different keys for good luck, babe and all those things, like some of that, it's hard and it's annoying and it's sucks to do, but you like having written it. Yeah. You like having written it at the end of it all. Yeah. Yeah. You're proud of it. You're proud of it later on. Like, that's, that's more of the

feeling is like you want to feel good about it later. You don't have to feel good about while you're doing it. Yeah. Are you working on anything right now or are you in a place where, you know, I mean, I guess I know you're working on Chapel right now. Sure. Is that then taking up all your time or? It's taking, I mean, I like it to take up my time. because I believe in it and I don't want to be distracted by other things. Like I'm I'm I'm I helped with a few other things here and there, you know, but right now my main focus is trying to get like new music for that in a good place. Are the other artists you work with? Do you, I guess this is interesting, you know, someone like Conan have worked with other

people after you. Yeah. And similarly, you've had a chapel who worked with other producers and then worked with you after them. Right. know, do you feel as, you know, for me as almost a, I feel like an independent contractor within the business where I'm always working on different projects and different things. There are a few that I get to do full albums with. Do you feel, do you feel any which way

when an artist is like, I just want to try something different? Or do you feel any which way when someone says, I need you to get me out of this situation? I mean, I always just want what's best for the artists. I really do. There are times when I feel like I can give the artist exactly what they're looking for, and there's other times when I feel like I can't. And even like on Chappell's record, there's like a couple of songs where I had some co-production on it

because I was like, she wants this to feel a certain way. And like, I'm probably not the best person to like get this style of production. So I'm going to bring somebody else in to help me because it's going to make this process better, you know? And there's other times where I'm like, I want to do it all myself because I actually know exactly what it's supposed to be. And I've tried to bring in other people and they've messed it up. And I'm like, then I have to fix the mistakes.

And I'm just like, I sometimes like to keep it in slur just for the fact of like, I just know I'll get it done. It might take a while, you know, but I know exactly what the outcome should be. So I'll just leave it that way. And other times I'm like, no, like, I need help. You know, like, give me some help here, you know. But I guess, no, I feel like whatever works best for the artist. If an artist feels like they want to do a certain thing, you know, they should

go do that thing, you know? And if they feel like they need my help and, and I'm the right person for the job, then it's usually pretty aligned that that's the case, you know. Let's go to this next segment of five for five. I list five things. Tell me what comes off the top of your head. Great. All right. Okay. I asked this last time, but I'm going to ask it again, as tall as lions. Uh, how am I supposed to, how am I supposed to, I don't know. Like, why does it make, like, the perspective difference of four years. and about 10 more hits later, do you think anything different

about the band that kind of established you? I don't know what, I actually don't remember what I answered the first time, but I love as tall as lines. I'm super proud of what we did. I think it was the most formative thing for me to become a producer

was to work on the interpersonal dynamics of having lots of people in the rooms, all with different types of egos and different, what you would call it, like wanting to get different things out of songs that it really enforce. how I work with an artist and I don't think that if I ever came from a band I wouldn't ever be able to do what I do.

To say that simply put, I wouldn't be able to be the producer that I am without that experience, you know. Similar, sour. So again? Sour. Sour. I mean, what a trip. What a wild ride.

That's a, you know, I still, Olivia and I still look back on it. and go like, what a crazy experience that was. What a beautiful experience. And I'm trying to think of like, I mean, there's so many feelings about sour, but it's amazing that so many people were able to connect with those songs. And it feels like it still hasn't gone away.

You know, like people are still listening to the record just as much as they were two years ago. And guts. Guts, I love guts so much. It was, I think you can, you can, Olivia would attest to it. It was one of the hardest things to make. You know, the follow-up to. It's way harder.

Making a second record is so hard. Especially, I've kind of talked to, I actually talked about this with so many people recently. Like, and not only just like chapel, but other artists like working on their second, talking about second records and the pressure of making a second record. And it's like, it's basically. basically like you look at your first record is this mountain, you know, that like you built. And it's built with like songs, production, you know, positive press reviews, Grammys, whatever you want to, whatever is on this mountain that you've like, that has amassed over the course

of one, two, three, four years that you're looking at. And then you start on an album two and you have nothing. You're literally looking at like a shovel and some do. dirt. And you're like, and then on day one, you like, you move some dirt over to the mound and you still, you look at the other mountain and you're like, well, that still doesn't look like that. You know, and then you add a couple more scoops of dirt. And every day, you're kind of just like, you're just trying to build a new mountain, you know, but you're still, you're, you're with those first few, you know, shovels in hand with nothing, nothing to show for it.

And it's, it makes it really daunting. And it's, but it's a crazy process. And it's, it's kind of awesome. Amusement records. Amusement records. I don't know. It's my baby. Well, it's interesting that you say that's your baby. When you've got a lot of things that are, you know, you've put a lot of effort and a lot of things. But that's a little different than writing a song. Yeah. I mean, it's, I think, I think from the, the experience with Chapel about like, not so much the experience of making the record so much or like, you know, the rise and fall.

But simply just like I learned from myself. I learned what I learned about myself in getting involved in this project was how much I like the A&Ring part of it and how much I like being involved in more than just writing a song and helping an artist navigate all the bullshit of the music industry is like you do it enough times and meet enough like, you know, strange characters along the way that like you feel like you could be helpful to someone else. And so I'd like to build it more, you know. I haven't signed anything new yet. And I'm, you know, I'm looking at things, but I haven't, you know, I haven't figured out the next step in it. But it's like, it's on the, it's in the forefront of my mind. Well, you're probably about to get a thousand DMs after this comes up. Your, your daughter, Sertia is, I don't know.

I mean, she's the most incredible little, I call it, we call her the bean. She's the bean. You know, I have a, you know, almost three-year-old, he'll be three by the time this comes out and a, you know, a five-month-old daughter. And we do the same thing. We just went through a Mariah. And like, I just feel it's so important to play. I play a lot of like great female artists. You know, that's a big thing, making sure we listen to it. By the way, it's also important for my son to listen to that too and vice versa. So it's, you know, but I just think that there are a lot of great vocalists and for some reason I just feel like that's I'm already trying to get her

to hear strong smart women sure and you know going through the Mariah thing is cool but I think it's important that you know that there are dads out there who are now playing Olivia and are now playing chapel the way that you know playing playing Alanis or playing whatever it was, you know, Mariah or whatever we want to play from other things. Like, you are creating, when I, I was kind of proud of saying you're a conductor of the zeitgeist. It's kind of like, it's amazing that what you're doing is really establishing a conversation with those two million streams a day on one song from one artist. I mean, you know, it's really remarkable, and it's because you are taking the time to make sure that that transition is important.

Sure. And you're making sure that that lyric is actually not Jane, but something more universal or something that is more communicative. You know, you're putting in the effort on the songwriting, and that's where it starts. So that way all the image stuff and all the other things can. then support the importance of fucking transitions in the song. And everyone so wants to get through that. And they all want to feel success or fame or whatever they're aiming for in music. But they don't realize that that's not really a thing until you care about the transition.

Sure. Yes. So, you know, look, this is your second interview on this day. I'm sure you'll have like 90 when we're really old and more gray. But I just appreciate you doing this. But I appreciate your work and your work ethic. And the artists you're putting out really matter for all of us with daughters. Thank you.

I appreciate that very much. Yeah. There you go, man. All right. This episode is produced by Joe London, Mega House Management, and myself. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan signing off.